Soldier for the Truth: Exposing Bush's Talking-Points War

[leftchick]

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/13/news-cooper.php

<Snip>
After two decades in the U.S. Air Force, Lieutenant Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski, now 43, knew her career as a regional analyst was coming to an end when — in the months leading up to the war in Iraq — she felt she was being “propagandized” by her own bosses.

With master’s degrees from Harvard in government and zoology and two books on Saharan Africa to her credit, she found herself transferred in the spring of 2002 to a post as a political/military desk officer at the Defense Department’s office for Near East South Asia (NESA), a policy arm of the Pentagon.

Kwiatkowski got there just as war fever was spreading, or being spread as she would later argue, through the halls of Washington. Indeed, shortly after her arrival, a piece of NESA was broken off, expanded and re-dubbed with the Orwellian name of the Office of Special Plans. The OSP’s task was, ostensibly, to help the Pentagon develop policy around the Iraq crisis.

She would soon conclude that the OSP — a pet project of Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld — was more akin to a nerve center for what she now calls a “neoconservative coup, a hijacking of the Pentagon.”


This Brave Woman's Photo:

[theorist]

1. This is a very important interview. Must Read!

I think this post is a dupe, though.

[JoFerret]

2. If it's a dupe

then find and kick. It's an important story.

[dArKeR]

6. Must take action! We didn't get this far by being selfish scum sucking

Republicans. Send an email to other Whores and ask where their coverage is?

[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]

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[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], q&[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]

http://money.cnn.com/services/speakup /
http://www.cnn.com/feedback /

[e-mail], [e-mail]

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[e-mail], [e-mail]" target="_blank">[e-mail]

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[e-mail]

[e-mail], [e-mail] http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/co/index.htm district of CO.

[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]

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http://www.latimes.com/services/site/la-comment-oped.story
http://www.latimes.com/services/site/la-comment-dcbureau.story


[e-mail] -To Dr. Nile Gardiner - To Edwin J. Feulner, Ph.D.
[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]

[e-mail], [e-mail]
http://www.hastertforcongress.org/contact.html

[leftchick]

7. you are right dArKeR....

These media whore war-mongers have a LOT of making up to do and better start with her!

[maggrwaggr]

10. Wow! Thanks for the addresses!

that's awesome

[calimary]

14. Red Alert, Monday Morning 1 (800) 839 - 5276 - TOLL FREE to

Capitol Hill. They'll transfer you to any House/Senate office you name. Call them and mention this. Urge them to look into this! Doesn't cost anything, takes about 60 seconds.

[dArKeR]

24. Hey, thanks, I've never seen an 800# before! This is going to be fun!

[0007]

38. You got man! Let's come out firing DUers!

[PaDUer]

29. WOW...what a resemblance to...

KKK Harris!! However, Harris doesn't come anywhere near intelligence that this woman has!

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

3. WOW. read this article... spread this far and wide

this is good stuff.

[pinto]

4. great interview, pass it on.

also posted in GD thread.

[louis-t]

5. fascinating!

[truthisfreedom]

8. excellent, excellent interview

incredible.

[Malva Zebrina]

9. Kwiatkowski looks fearlessly into the camera, straight on

there is no plastic, botoxed wax veneer and no self promoting fake image. I admire this down to earth , extremely intelligent and well educated, natural woman.

Thanks for the post

[Sticky]

12. Flow Chart for Office of Special Plans

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/01/12_400.html

At the bottom there is a notation about PNAC members that includes the name Woolsey. Is that the former CIA director James Woolsey?

Edit: Meant to reply to Original Post. :-)

[loudnclear]

11. See also the posts on GD about this.

If this doesn't hit the airwaves soon there should be protest marches organized.

[number6]

13. kick

:kick:

[leftchick]

15. OSP Exposed! From MoJo....

Good Lord, let all these people be behind bars before 2005!....

[dArKeR]

25. Is Mojo, Mother Jones? This is a great flow chart!

[leftchick]

40. Yes it is... here is the link....

There is a great article in this months issue which includes the flow chart...

"The Lie Factory"

<snip>It's a crisp fall day in western Virginia, a hundred miles from Washington, D.C., and a breeze is rustling the red and gold leaves of the Shenandoah hills. On the weather-beaten wood porch of a ramshackle 90-year-old farmhouse, at the end of a winding dirt-and-gravel road, Lt. Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski is perched on a plastic chair, wearing shorts, a purple sweatshirt, and muddy sneakers. Two scrawny dogs and a lone cat are on the prowl, and the air is filled with swarms of ladybugs.

So far, she says, no investigators have come knocking. Not from the Central Intelligence Agency, which conducted an internal inquiry into intelligence on Iraq, not from the congressional intelligence committees, not from the president's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. All of those bodies are ostensibly looking into the Bush administration's prewar Iraq intelligence, amid charges that the White House and the Pentagon exaggerated, distorted, or just plain lied about Iraq's links to Al Qaeda terrorists and its possession of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. In her hands, Kwiatkowski holds several pieces of the puzzle. Yet she, along with a score of other career officers recently retired or shuffled off to other jobs, has not been approached by anyone.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/01/12_405.html

Link to "The Intelligenc Chain"...


http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/01/12_400.html

[nolabels]

32. Now this thread is worth saving, thanks leftchick

You have to remember not to put any spin like some PNAC / Zionists were involved or it will get burried again. Check the date out on this article and what abe's duties were at the time.

One can only wonder why this story didn't wash to the shores on some main stream corporate media source of the US? I thought the muricans where so informed on matters like this

http://www.rebelion.org/petras/english/030813petrasirak.htm
August 10, 2003

Who fabricated the Iraq war threat: An inside view

James Petras
Rebelión

There is growing debate and criticism in the US Congress and media of the Bush Administration's fabricated evidence of Iraq's possession of weapons of mass destruction. Even more serious the investigation and testimony of top US military and civilian officials in the Pentagon and State Department reveals profound differences and divisions between themselves and the "political appointees". The testimony and evidence of the professionals' revelations are crucial to understanding the structure of real power in the Bush Administration. It is in times of crises and divisions in the governing class that we the public are given insights into who governs for whom. The debate, criticism and division in Washington today is just such an instance.

After years of UN inspections, and almost five months of thousands of searches and interviews by close to ten thousand US military, intelligence and scientific inspectors it has been definitively demonstrated that Iraq did not possess weapons of mass destruction (or even of useful national defense), a point now practically conceded by some members of the Bush Administration. This raised the next key question - Who in the Bush regime provided the fabricated evidence and for what purpose.

The initial response of the Bush apologists was to attribute the fabrications to "bureaucratic errors" and "communication failures" or as Wolfowitz cynically claimed to "secure a consensus for the war policy". CIA Director Tenet became the self- confessed scapegoat for the "mistakes". As the investigations progressed however, testimony from a multiplicity of high level sources in the regime revealed that there were two channels of policy making and advisers, the formal structure made up of career professional military and civilians in the Pentagon and State Department and a parallel structure made up of political appointees. From all available evidence it was the "unofficial" political advisers organized by Wolfowitz, Feith and Rumsfeld in the Office of Special Planning (OSP) who were the source of the fabricated evidence, which was used to "justify" the invasion and occupation of Iraq. The OSP is headed by Abram Shulsky and included other neo-conservatives, who have virtually no professional knowledge or qualification in intelligence and military affairs. Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of Defense, and Paul Wolfowitz set up the OSP. Shulsky is an avid follower and protégé of Richard Perle, the well-known militarist and long time supporter of military attacks on Arab regimes in the Middle East.

According to the testimony of a Pentagon insider, Lieutenant Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski who worked in the office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy, Near East and South Asia Division and Special Plans in the Pentagon, the "civil service and active duty military professionals were noticeably uninvolved in key areas" of interest to Feith, Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld, namely Israel, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Lieutenant Colonel Kwiatkowski goes on to specify that "in terms of Israel and Iraq all primary staff work was conducted by political appointees, in the case of Israel a desk officer appointee from the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and in the case of Iraq, Abe Shusky." Equally important, the ex-Pentagon official describes the existence of "cross-agency cliques". She describes how the members of a variety of neo-conservative and pro-Israel organizations, (Project for a New American Century, the Center for Security Policy and the American Enterprise Institute), who are now in the Bush regime only interact among themselves across the various agencies. She points out that major decisions result from "groupthink" - the uncritical acceptance of prevailing points of view and the uncritical acceptance of extremely narrow and isolated views". She was forced to resign by her chief after she told him that "some folks (the cliques and networks) in the Pentagon may be sitting beside Hussein in the war crimes tribunal" for their destructive war and occupation policies.
(snip)

[loudnclear]

16. Based on the sparse response on this thread, this must be too, too hot

to handle, even for "DUers."

It ought to separate the true patriots from the fake ones.

[leftchick]

17. This woman shoud be on EVERY Sunday morning show Tomorrow....

These are the freakin DOTs people, Connect them!! <sigh>.... Look how pathetic our nation has become. :(

[Kinkistyle]

22. This is old news to DU'ers, but nonetheless important.

Kwiatkowski was out exposing the DOD and the OSP during the midst of Bush's war-frenzy bloodlust, so it probably isn't "Latest Breaking News", but she definitely is one of the good guys and shows the exodus of many of the old die-hard repubs.

[rocktivity]

31. Things tend to slow down here on weekends, Loudnclear

Give this a kick on Sunday and Monday morning. I think you will then get the response you were expecting.


rocknation

[maggrwaggr]

18. kicking

:kick:

[leftchick]

19. spot dying seems to be so much more...

important today. How sad....

[Lorien]

35. Even many here at DU

are conditioned to view the trivial fluff pieces that belong on ET and in "People" magazine as real news (I call it the "pastry press"). It's safe, it's accessible, it doesn't make us too uncomfortable. Discomfort is not acceptable to much of America anymore, but if they continue to turn a blind eye to these stories, life will get a whole lot less comfy pretty darn quick!

[pinto]

20. kick

[kanrok]

21. Big kick here

If this isn't the most significant story to be reported about Iraq, I don't know what is. This needs to be SCREAMED from the tops of buildings. Geez.

[uhhuh]

23. I heard her give a talk on the radio

She was addressing a veteran's group and she invited representatives on the DOD who were known to be in the audience to speak up if anything she says was not true. They didn't say a word. She's the real deal.

Kick it back up!

[berry]

26. Does anyone know where to find her columns?

It says she wrote 28 of them (I think that's the number--I read this earlier on the GD thread and may not remember correctly). They were published by Hackworth.

:kick:

[UpInArms]

27. you can find her articles

here:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski-arch.html

Karen Kwiatkowski: Archives

:kick:

[nolabels]

34. Thanks for the link,Too cool, check some of it out!!!

Hope somebody sends her an E-mail to let her know she has made it to the postings at LBN at DU, and they haven't even tried to throw her off any tall buildings (at least far as one can tell).

Some one should write manual for these special people. Showing them why its not a good idea to go on small planes, to stay away from tall buildings. Not to go out for walks in the woods alone. Why you shouldn't be just down the street from your own house with rat shot in your pistol. Just a general handbook for people to keep safe from untimely death when they might be upsetting * and members of the cabal

from the link above
http://www.lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski64.html

Drama King of Freedom
by Karen Kwiatkowski
(snip)
Bush is such a drama king, whether playing dress-up on the USS Abe Lincoln or hide-and-seek in the Alabama Air National Guard. But it was Bush’s other speech this week, at the National Defense University on WMD proliferation, that really brought out his dramatic side. It may also have revealed his real vision for Amerika.

Bush was speaking of Libya’s longstanding efforts to re-enter the community of nations. These efforts have been ongoing for over a decade, and had been opposed by both Clinton and Bush administrations until somebody in the Bush campaign realized they could take credit for it, as a "positive" gained from the occupation of Iraq.

Bush read from his prepared speech, "Abandoning the pursuit of illegal weapons can lead to better relations with the United States, and other free nations. Continuing to seek those weapons will not bring security or international prestige, but only political isolation, economic hardship, and other unwelcome consequences."

Between the words "economic hardship" and "other unwelcome consequences," Bush took a long dramatic pause, giving the audience a look of delighted and barely contained menace. The Perle/Frum End of Evil team and the American Enterprise Institute must have been feeling the love.

Perhaps we should listen to Bush’s words, embrace his visions, and heed them. As Bush explained to Russert, "See, free societies are societies that don't develop weapons of mass terror and don't blackmail the world."

I see, Mr. Bush, I see.

February 17, 2004

Karen Kwiatkowski is a retired USAF lieutenant colonel, who spent her final four and a half years in uniform working at the Pentagon. She now lives with her freedom-loving family in the Shenandoah Valley, and writes a bi-weekly column on defense issues with a libertarian perspective for militaryweek.com
(snip)

[leftchick]

37. This is From "Dress Up George" at the link....

<Bush is such a drama king, whether playing dress-up on the USS Abe Lincoln or hide-and-seek in the Alabama Air National Guard. But it was Bush’s other speech this week, at the National Defense University on WMD proliferation, that really brought out his dramatic side. It may also have revealed his real vision for Amerika.

Bush was speaking of Libya’s longstanding efforts to re-enter the community of nations. These efforts have been ongoing for over a decade, and had been opposed by both Clinton and Bush administrations until somebody in the Bush campaign realized they could take credit for it, as a "positive" gained from the occupation of Iraq. >

....hee, hee....Sounds like she reads DU! Thanks So much for the Link UpInArms! :)

[Poiuyt]

28. Kick

[Zhade]

30. This kicks much ass.

She's a stand-up woman, and very kind, too - I wrote to her after her first bylined story. I mentioned in passing about my ex-AFSOC dad and how he refused to see what's going on. She was very empathic and understanding.

She's a true hero. Glad to see this in the Weekly, too - too often the paper misses the mark just barely. This really hits hard, though.

[wabeewoman]

33. Great article.

Thanks! Glad to see her speaker out.

[CRK7376]

36. What a great

article. Hits the nail flat on monkey boy's head. Sure wish it would get more coverage from the press both print and tv....

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

39. Interesting.

So you don’t think there was a genuine interest as to whether or not there really were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

It’s not about interest. We knew. We knew from many years of both high-level surveillance and other types of shared intelligence, not to mention the information from the U.N., we knew, we knew what was left and the viability of any of that. Bush said he didn’t know.

The truth is, we know didn’t have these things. Almost a billion dollars has been spent — a billion dollars! — by David Kay’s group to search for these WMD, a total whitewash effort. They didn’t find anything, they didn’t expect to find anything.


- - - - - - - - - -

And the 3 reasons she gives for the invasion:

1. Contracts (read Halliburton).
2. Establish a military base in the region.
3. SH's switch from the dollar to the euro on oil sales.

All reasons that were speculated on here in the fall of 2002.

[Imalittleteapot]

41. Kick. Must read. Email link to all.

Help this brave soldier, Kwiatkowski, have a louder voice.

[DUmbrella]

42. An honest question

There's something I just don't get. Why would the administration have to go through such lengths to get the war going? It's not like they made the stuff up. There were many in the Clinton administration who wanted to invade as well. This isn't new stuff. The realization of the need to depose Saddam has been around in every administration since GWI. There are hundreds of books and articles written by many on threat and potential threat of Saddam. My feeling is that ANY administration would've done the same thing, esp in the wake of 9/11. They could've done a much better job with PR and selling the war, but it would've been done no matter what. The alternative today would be a sanction-free Iraq, with no inspectors, and a full-blown weapons program with unlimmited funding back in swing.

Here are some quotes by others going back a few years about Saddam. This isn't new:

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." -- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002

"There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we." -- Wesley Clark on September 26, 2002

"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national security. It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

[leftchick]

43. Guess What......

1. PNAC = Majority of aWol* administration neocons

2. Iraq had nothing to do with Sept. 11

3. The Inspectors were there doing their job until dumbass* kicked them out to have his war

4. Clinton bombed WMD sites in his second term, no need to start a war.

5. Did you actually read the story from LA Weekly and Mother Jones?

[maggrwaggr]

45. nice try

did you even read the interview?

You apparently swallow, you don't spit.

Read the interview. It explains how we were lied to.

Do you like being lied to? Apparently.

[nolabels]

46. I am glad somebody checks out the B.S. from the corporate media

Here at DUer land it seems like a whole other world. So many of them people you have in them quotes have been proved wrong (or worse, deceitful)so many times here at DU. Its nice to see some fresh non-DU opinions come in once in while

About forty years ago I was absolutely sure the tooth fairy was real, all that got ruined, they sent me to grade school and I ended up learning to how to read.

Like many here, I claim to be no expert about anything too much. But a common leaning here is not to put to much stock in someones testimonial about a belief. Not being swayed by opinion of others but by facts that give merit to the case.

In short, outing fakery is so much fun, but there is so much out there it makes it difficult to do it at nausea

Some here hold no prisoners, but I would say they don't spend most their efforts trying to ridicule people on the left either.

So where is them posts about Rummy,wolfie,Dick etc? :think:

Btw talking points by right wing think tanks don't make for good starting, but flame on, maybe you can make it to a hundred posts

[Cooley Hurd]

47. Yawn... here's this same crap again...

No offense, Dumbrella, but every quote in your list was taken out of context and NO ONE quoted specifically said they would've backed invading Iraq over the continued sanctions or by helping opposition groups overthrow Saddam (something Bush I encouraged IN 1991, but then left the revolutionaries high and dry when the time came to start the coup).

Read the Snopes page on this:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

Oh, and welcome to DU...

[nolabels]

48. Mostly the link is money for the talking points

Creating doubt about where one should stand on issues is what the wing -dingers have to use. Thanks for the post, the spectrum of debate is enhanced by it

[DUmbrella]

49. Thanks

It's good to see that some people here appreciate debate (or were you being sarcastic?)

I don't have the time to go through and debate you guys on every point. There's no sense to it anyway because I know it won't change any minds. All I have to say is this.

I'm a democrat who supported the war. I disagree with Bush on just about everything except his FP/NS which to me is the most important item on the agenda. I was very undecided leading up to the war. At first I was against it. It was really bothering me so I absorbed myself in reading about it. Everything from Iraqi history, books on Islam, conspiracy websites, etc. I've looked at works by Chomsky, Bernard Lewis, Ken Pollack, Moore, etc. I try to be as open as possible in my reading.

Based on what I read, the conclusion I reached was that the war was necessary and that the region has a better chance of achieving peace 10-20 years down the line with Sadaam gone (even after he died, his son(s) would've continued the legacy). My hope is that a peaceful Iraq will provide a light and hope to the rest of the region and that peace will spread. The sucess of this mission cannot be judged on a day to day basis, or even month to month. It could/will take years to reach that point. Every peaceful country was born out of blood, and it never happens overnight.

Many here disagree with me and that's fine. I know I can't convince you. I just encourage everyone to read and educate themselves as much as possible before you make up your mind. Be wary of conpiracy theories and almost anything you read on the internet. Just because it's online doesn't mean its true. (maybe I should follow my own advice as everyone shot down my quotes so fast, huh?)

Especially when it comes to history, since a good understanding in this area is essential to be able to put any current events into context. I highly recomend Bernard Lewis for ME-related history.

I'm not meaning to flame anyone, just interject some alterior points of view. Enjoy...

[leftchick]

51. perhaps you missed reading the PNAC agenda...

This war was never about bringing "peace and Democracy to Iraq". What a fucking joke. It was about oil and establishing bases in Iraq, keeping a US presence to the mideast FOREVER! Check out perle and frum's new book. It is all right there. Oh, and I learned all of this "off the internet" well over a year ago. DUers are usually way ahead of faux news... :eyes:

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftchick]

53. you don't care what it was about, yet you know they did the right thing?

.... Sorry, I clearly do not understand that logic. :crazy:

[maggrwaggr]

54. Hey, did you even READ the interview with the Lt. Col??

If you did, you'd realize that they went to Iraq for strategic purposes, NOT to get rid of an evil dictator, NOT to spread democracy in the middle east, NONE of that shit.

Read the interview before you talk about it. You're simply displaying your ignorance and your blind allegiance right now.

[maggrwaggr]

55. I hope you're proud of this then

this was done with your compliance and with your tax dollars. Still think "we did good?"

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftchick]

63. Are you proud of this too?

Or of the THOUSANDS of Iraqis killed and Maimed due to the disastrous imperial bush* policies?!? Yep, everything is JUST PEACHY since our illegal war...Go figure... :puke:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=493560

Dying of neglect: the state of Iraq's children's hospitals

The wards are filthy, the sanitation shocking, the infections lethal. Sewage drips from the roof above cots of premature babies. This is the state of Baghdad's top children's hospital, 10 months after the fall of Saddam, reveals Justin Huggler
21 February 2004


In Iraq's hospitals, children are dying because of shockingly poor sanitation and a shortage of medical equipment. In Baghdad's premier children's hospital, Al-Iskan, sewage drips from the roof of the premature babies' ward, leaking from waste pipes above.

In the leukaemia ward, the lavatories overflow at times, spreading filthy water across the floor that carries potentially lethal infection.

Rubbish is piled on the stairs and in the corridors: old broken bits of machinery, discarded toilet cisterns, babies' cots filled with mountains of unwanted paperwork. The fire escape is blocked with discarded razor wire.

Nearby lie blankets still black with the blood of Iraqi soldiers wounded during the war - for months, they must have been fetid breeding grounds for disease.


...Lot's more at the link if you dare get a glimpse of the REAL Iraq.

[DUmbrella]

64. Like I said before

I don't judge the success of our mission on a day to day, or month to month basis. There's a LOT of work to be done.

I can't change anyone's minds about anything. I can only hope that time will prove me right, and that in 20 years when we look back to now, we'll know we've done the right thing. Thats my final word on this thread.

[maggrwaggr]

65. you never answered the question -- did you read the interview?

Maybe you don't want to because it would interfere with what you belief.

Me, I'd rather have the facts than "beliefs"

[pinto]

58. you support pre-emptive, unilateral regime change? should or could

democracy be "imposed" by an outside power? is the "big picture" Americanization of the mid-east at any cost? a few questions off the top...

[bpilgrim]

67. obviously

and neither do the neoCONs which probably explains your agreement.

but fighting 'preventive' wars is UNAMERICAN not to mention ILLEGAL.

i know, you DON't care.

peace

[maggrwaggr]

56. Iraq WAS peaceful before we invaded it

or weren't you paying attention?

[nolabels]

59. I sometimes like to check up historical events from the people living them

I don't really think you could call it a War, to be truthful. More like an invasion with some resistance. I am hearing very little of soldiers coming forward declaring how EVIL the belligerents were.

Mostly things I have heard coming from there, of the few reports one could get from regular GI folks over there, are the questions like "what the heck are we doing over here in the first place". Other than securing the well heads to steal Iraq's oil, I have not heard one thing that was accomplished. The last line they proffered by the corporate media was one of giving democracy to Iraq. Sounds like that one is not going real well at the present time. (wonder why?)

http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=3049

Democracy Delayed Is Democracy Denied
The sooner elections are held in Iraq the fewer American lives will be lost.
by HUSSAIN AL-SHAHRISTANI, Iraqi Democrats Against the Occupation/Wall Street Journal
February 12th, 2004
A U.N. electoral fact-finding team has arrived in Iraq to discuss with local leaders and the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) the possibility of holding elections. Iraqis expect the U.N. experts to give advice on the best way to organize elections through which they choose the people they can trust to rule them.

Since the fall of the regime, I have led numerous humanitarian and developmental projects in different regions of Iraq. Village elders, community leaders and professionals tell me of their dreams for a new Iraq. I am struck by the deep-rooted concern and fear felt by these people that the occupying forces will impose a new dictatorship on them that may cost them further hundreds of thousands of lives. Fair and free elections, they insist, are their only guarantee of living as free people.
(snip)
(snip)
Al-Sistani is perhaps the only person who can realize both the dreams of the majority of Iraqis, and the declared goal of the U.S.: to create a stable democracy that could potentially transform the Middle East. The U.S. should value the role the Grand Ayatollah is taking to lead the Iraqi people away from militancy and toward the international system of democracy. If Washington plays it right, this path that Al-Sistani spearheaded in Iraq could prove to be the most significant victory in a war on terrorism. Let us hope--and pray--that Washington has the wisdom to seize it. The most practical way to help Iraq now is to allow the U.N. to work with representatives of all constituents of the Iraqi society to develop a formula for early direct elections--an achievable task. Elections will be held in Iraq, sooner or later. The sooner they are held, and a truly democratic Iraq is established, the fewer Iraqi and American lives will be lost.

Mr. Al-Shahristani is chairman of the standing committee of the Iraqi National Academy of Science. He was held in solitary confinement for 10 years under Saddam Hussein.
Opinions expressed in this column do not necessarily represent that of IDAO
(snip)
I am still hopeful that things will get worked out, in spite of what was done over there for the last FIFTY + years

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

75. HoHo... A great Dashle quote.... omg... this guy is dumb....

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

Except for the United States, huh Tom? Or do you remember Japan, buttface?

[glitch]

44. kexp played the radionation interview with her this morning

In a few days they will post an archive stream so you can listen to her at http://www.kexp.org/
She's very well-spoken. Says she's not retired, just fighting for the constitution in another way.
A genuine American hero.

[JoFerret]

50. Question and answer

? <<<You gave your life to the military, you voted Republican for many years, you say you served in the Pentagon right up to the outbreak of war. What does it feel like to be out now, publicly denouncing your old bosses?

Answer: Know what it feels like? It feels like duty.>>>

[maggrwaggr]

57. now that's patriotic

not this "I'll keep lying for my lying president" bullshit

[leftchick]

62. exactly!

Another whopper: "He is a man of God" ...that one is the worst. The logic of the bush* regime enablers boggles my mind.

[pinto]

60. kick, the woman speaks for herself and her sense of duty to the country,

I applaud that. This admin reLIES on ventriloquists to mouth lines from a script....

[Just Me]

66. This woman is the kind of warrior I truly respect!!

This story should be in every paper and on every broadcast across this country.

She is a true hero!!!!

[Karenina]

68. Kick for Karen.

:kick:

[maggrwaggr]

69. monday kick. Spread this story!

far and wide

[duvinnie]

70. a very important interview

I was floored at her answer to the question about "What were the real reasons." I mean,
she laid out the exact and specific points which are just plain dynamite - and no one in
the mainstream media dares touch those.

What's sad is, even those who don't agree with her, would have to admit that her
recounting of the real reasons for war are far more persuasive than the we-thought-Saddam
-might-someday-somehow-develop-some-blueprints-for-possible-WMD-programs crap
we are being provided in the name of news.

[nolabels]

71. But to make one's blood boil they should read up on the words of.........

some pardoned traitors. People that served should not let such claims go by. Instead of questioning how much one was wounded, how about asking where someone else was at. Instead of questioning if there was torture, what about seeing how much you were a part of it. Some one should send this person an E-mail to ask what he did in that civil war in central America or any other hostility for that matter.

This is guy that has fully demonstrated how traitors serve their country. I put this in as an effort to show the difference and float the name Mr North to contrast the sharp difference from what would be the difference from serving your country as opposed to serving your click.

http://www.military.com/NewContent1/0,14361,FreedomAlliance_021904,00.htm
Oliver North: Kerry's Unanswered Questions
February 19, 2004
(snip)
Mr. Kerry has the same problem with his post-Vietnam, anti-government activities. He says that photos of him with Jane Fonda are fakes. Did he ever appear with Jane Fonda? Ms. Fonda eventually apologized to America's Vietnam veterans for actions that General Giap and other Vietnamese leaders said prolonged the war and encouraged the NVA to keep on fighting -- and killing Americans. Did Mr. Kerry ever apologize? Where? When?

Mr. Kerry testified under oath before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971 that Americans in Vietnam had "raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war."

Set aside the horrific and defamatory nature of these accusations and ask this: Did he witness these atrocities? Did he try to stop them? If not, was he held accountable for dereliction of duty? If he knows the perpetrators, did he ever see that they were brought to justice? If not, why?

Mr. Kerry and his cronies in the Democrat party have made Vietnam an issue in this campaign. They have slandered Mr. Bush for his service during the war. Until Mr. Kerry truthfully answers the questions above -- and a whole lot more about his actions during the war, many of us are going to wonder what the middle initial "F" in John F. Kerry stands for -- is it "Fiction?" Or is it simply "False?"
(snip)

[maggrwaggr]

72. I am so fucking pissed off no one's touched this story yet

all I hear on the TV is Colorado rape bullshit and other mindless crap.

I just sent about 30 more e-mails out.

I need more addresses.

Who's got some real addresses at CNN? I want specific people.

[nolabels]

73. "Obscure the truth, and sell a war"

http://www.raceagainstdisaster.com/archives/000001.html

Special Plans and Secret Sauce
May 17, 2003
(snip)
To this date WMD have not been found in Iraq. Nothing but false alarms, reported nearly every day. Crews are now leaving. Intelligence failure? If it were only that simple. Only if the "intelligence" analysis had been aimed at revealing the truth, could it be considered a failure when it didn't provide the truth. But the OSP was designed to obscure the truth, and sell a war. The Bush administration wanted "evidence" that they desperately needed to make a case to the world, and the American people. When the CIA and the FBI couldn't support the connection between Iraq and al-Qaeda the government went elsewhere to shop for the implicating "truth" it needed. Now ex-CIA are coming forward with admissions of all this. Example of the the disinformation campaign from Hersh's report:

...many newspapers published extensive interviews with Adnan Ihsan Saeed al-Haideri, a civil engineer who, with the I.N.C.’s help, fled Iraq in 2001, and subsequently claimed that he had visited twenty hidden facilities that he believed were built for the production of biological and chemical weapons. One, he said, was underneath a hospital in Baghdad. Haideri was apparently a source for Secretary of State Colin Powell’s claim, in his presentation to the United Nations Security Council on February 5th, that the United States had “firsthand descriptions” of mobile factories capable of producing vast quantities of biological weapons. The U.N. teams that returned to Iraq last winter were unable to verify any of al-Haideri’s claims.

Does any of this matter? It should, but it doesn't seem to have captured the attention of the media. Most Americans have notoriously short attention spans. Most are content that we "won" and don't want to rethink the whole thing. As far as WMD go, the Bush administration can now use the old "bait and switch" technique just as effectively in distracting from the truth, to provide occasion for another regime change. Where are the weapons? Why they're in Syria of course. Onward to Damascus, coalition! Says Vince Cannistraro of the OSP:

Their methods are vicious,' said Vince Cannistraro, former CIA chief of counter-terrorism. 'The politicisation of intelligence is pandemic, and deliberate disinformation is being promoted. They choose the worst-case scenario on everything and so much of the information is fallacious.
(snip)

[JohnOneillsMemory]

74. Whistle blower revealed 2 years after the whistle!! Frikkin' press! n/t