Obama to push for merit pay for teachers in education speech.

[Freddie Stubbs]

Source: Chicago Sun-Times

WASHINGTON--In a major speech on education, President Obama On Tuesday will push merit pay for teachers and upgraded "data systems" to track student and teacher performance. Money for that will be provided through the Obama stimulus package, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.


Key proposal, according to the White House: "The President will teacher quality by dramatically expanding successful performance pay models and rewards for effective teachers, scaling up federal support for such programs in up to an additional 150 school districts nationwide."




Read more: http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2009/03/obama_to_push_for_merit_pay_fo.html

[tonysam]

1. What a Stupid Idea.

Obama needs to sack Arne Duncan and his ilk pronto.

How does one know what an "effective" teacher is, by the way, beyond those dumb standardized test scores?

[WriteDown]

2. Standardized tests do have their place....

Japan is almost all standardized tests and few would argue their students aren't highly educated.

[tonysam]

5. You Don't Know What You Are Talking About

Japan is a homogenous society; America is NOT. There are many other factors which go into student performance, with home life being the most critical. Teachers have NO control over that.

Just because YOU went to school does NOT make you an expert on education.

Besides, schools are NOT businesses and performance cannot be measured. Kids are not widgets or keystrokes.

[WriteDown]

7. So basically....

You are discounting any system that works? Seems like we should be trying to emulate a system that works rather than discount if offhand.

[Igel]

49. So I'll comment.

I think the system works, and should be emulated.

The first step is for the parents to emulate Japanese parents. Push the kids to do well, make it clear that they *have* to do well. If the parents aren't there, then some other relative sits on the kids: They achieve 99% and greater attendance rates, obey their teachers, they study hard, in the evenings and on weekends. All the kids are on the same page, pretty much, in terms of culture and expectations, background knowledge, and all speak the same language when they start school.

You want to impose that on the "celebration of cultural diversity" in the US?

Ok, let's make sure that black kids from broken homes have the same values and background as white upper-middle-class kids with two parents. Make sure that all the 5-year-olds starting kindergarten are fluent English speakers.

Not going to happen? Well, that's the bare minimum required for the Japanese model. It's what it assumes from the get-go. If the system doesn't meet minimum criteria, it's not going to pass the test, now is it?

Then again the Japanese model does grunt-work well, some "higher-order" things less well. When American kids get to college they tend to be more creative; that has to be taught in many other systems. It's a trade off (I personally think we've gone too far in one direction, but that seems to be a minority view).

[Hannah Bell]

66. The Japanese system worked because of the relative equality of the income distribution.

Let's import that.

Japan is changing though. You can now see homeless people on the streets.

PS: I lived there in the 80s & taught English at an Osaka high school. as regular faculty.

[Demeter]

73. And What about the Japanese Kids that Hide In Their Rooms for Years?

They were traumatized by the system. And the suicides? We don't have kids killing themselves because they couldn't jump some hurdle in the educational path...

And what about our kids? The disabled, the hungry and/or homeless, the culturally deprived?

There are multiple paths to success. there are multiple definitions of success. A diverse society needs diversity.

[Hannah Bell]

112. i don't disagree with a lot of what you say & i don't hold the japanese system up as a model.

the testing doesn't produce the higher achievement, to the extent it's real (though i think it is real, in some areas, though this is changing because japan's economy is).

nor would merit pay produce better achievement. but it would reduce collegiality & solidarity among teachers. which i believe is the goal.

[brentspeak]

83. Finland has the world's best-rated public education system

And it has http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41278-2004Dec6.html">rejected standardized testing.

You were saying something about "trying to emulate a system that works"?

[WriteDown]

95. The article is fascinating...

A lot more here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland

Looks like the large majority of their teachers also have master's degrees. The "trade school" or secondary school is similar to something they have in Japan and may be useful here.

[The2ndWheel]

18. "Kids are not widgets or keystrokes"

Ha ha ha. Yes they are. We all are. We're digits on a screen. We're cogs in the machine. We all have to be standardized, interchangeable, and predictable. A mass produced people for a mass produced society. Diversity is not efficient, it's wasteful. Which is good, but not if you want to maximize productivity.

[Lost in CT]

26. I'm sure Japanese households have different home lives as well.

It is insane not to measure what kids are learning... and it is a bit more insane to blame the tests when the numbers tell you something you don't want to know.

Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make anyone smarter and doesn't do the kids any favors either.

[Nevernose]

70. Home life is far more influential than school on academic success

Home lives are far more influential than school in matters of academic success. It's not about race (as much) or geographic region, it's about the relative advantages and social norms of a group. This has been shown over and over again through countless studies conducted over the last forty years.

It's not an insurmountable problem, but it's not a problem that can be overcome by this week's accountability fad, "high expectations," or firing bad teachers. That stuff need to be done, but it's about ten percent of the total effort.

Here's a little light reading. The whole thing really is pretty fascinating, if a little long. :)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9505E3D7153EF935A15752C1A9609C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=3

Researchers began peering deep into American homes, studying up close the interactions between parents and children. The first scholars to emerge with a specific culprit in hand were Betty Hart and Todd R. Risley, child psychologists at the University of Kansas, who in 1995 published the results of an intensive research project on language acquisition. Ten years earlier, they recruited 42 families with newborn children in Kansas City, and for the following three years they visited each family once a month, recording absolutely everything that occurred between the child and the parent or parents. The researchers then transcribed each encounter and analyzed each child's language development and each parent's communication style. They found, first, that vocabulary growth differed sharply by class and that the gap between the classes opened early. By age 3, children whose parents were professionals had vocabularies of about 1,100 words, and children whose parents were on welfare had vocabularies of about 525 words. The children's I.Q.'s correlated closely to their vocabularies. The average I.Q. among the professional children was 117, and the welfare children had an average I.Q. of 79.

When Hart and Risley then addressed the question of just what caused those variations, the answer they arrived at was startling. By comparing the vocabulary scores with their observations of each child's home life, they were able to conclude that the size of each child's vocabulary correlated most closely to one simple factor: the number of words the parents spoke to the child. That varied greatly across the homes they visited, and again, it varied by class. In the professional homes, parents directed an average of 487 ''utterances'' -- anything from a one-word command to a full soliloquy -- to their children each hour. In welfare homes, the children heard 178 utterances per hour.
What's more, the kinds of words and statements that children heard varied by class. The most basic difference was in the number of ''discouragements'' a child heard -- prohibitions and words of disapproval -- compared with the number of encouragements, or words of praise and approval. By age 3, the average child of a professional heard about 500,000 encouragements and 80,000 discouragements. For the welfare children, the situation was reversed: they heard, on average, about 75,000 encouragements and 200,000 discouragements. Hart and Risley found that as the number of words a child heard increased, the complexity of that language increased as well. As conversation moved beyond simple instructions, it blossomed into discussions of the past and future, of feelings, of abstractions, of the way one thing causes another -- all of which stimulated intellectual development.

Hart and Risley showed that language exposure in early childhood correlated strongly with I.Q. and academic success later on in a child's life. Hearing fewer words, and a lot of prohibitions and discouragements, had a negative effect on I.Q.; hearing lots of words, and more affirmations and complex sentences, had a positive effect on I.Q. The professional parents were giving their children an advantage with every word they spoke, and the advantage just kept building up.

[jkappy]

71. smart but incredibly imitative!! n/t

[sakura]

79. Japan also has an abysmal suicide rate for middle schoolers...

... who are pushed from elementary school to study, study, study to get into the "right" high school, which leads to the "right" college. Japan also has after school (and into the night)for-profit study schools called "juku"-- it's a lot like Kaplan or other SAT prep courses, and like those courses, only those who can afford it attend. This leads to kids falling asleep or goofing off at school, because the material being learned there is not relevant to the test. There's another saying in Japanese about studying for the standardized tests-- "sleep four hours, pass; sleep five hours, fail."

[silverojo]

103. Japan's "school excellence" is a myth

Japan's schools encourage no critical thinking whatsoever. It's all about rote memorization and attending "cram schools" to score higher on tests.

In Japanese society, asking questions of your teacher and engaging in discussion is considered rude. Do this, and you'll be shunned by your classmates.

Do you know how bad this form of "education" is? Among Asian countries, Japanese students' foreign-language skills are among the worst, and sometimes rank dead last, in some years' polling. How can it be any different, when kids are trained to be robots and discouraged from answering follow-up questions?

And did I mention that bullying is a constant, and often life-threatening danger in that country?

I know all this because I'm interested in Japan and have many friends there. These are the dirty little secrets that the media likes to ignore, while comparing our "inferior" school system to theirs.

[roguevalley]

117. and if teacher pay is based on achievement, expect cheating up

the wazoo. it has happened in other places where pay is based on student achievement. since some people teach disadvantaged kids who can't achieve as highly as those in other areas, that would be the impetus for cheating across the board. Eliminate poverty and make people be responsible for their kids and maybe the playing field will be leveled for all.

[cali]

4. There are many ways beyond standardized tests to determine how effective a teacher is

observation, feedback from students, parents and peers, etc.

[sandnsea]

8. Advanced degrees, mentoring training,

taking on tougher schools. He has usually applied a different model to merit pay than just outcome and test scores.

[tonysam]

10. If That's the Case, He Shouldn't Call It "Merit Pay,"

for that's not what it is.

[sandnsea]

13. But once you implement "Merit Pay"

Then the ones who want the other kind will have to shut up. I am willing to at least wait and see what he presents because it's usually not what the hyperbolics think it is.

[tonysam]

14. It's Possible Obama's Plan

isn't what the media claims it is. We can only hope he doesn't fall sucker for Duncan and his ilk's nonsense.

[snooper2]

48. How about "Competence Pay"

nt

[tonysam]

81. How Do You Define "Competence"? You Can't. n/t

[bluestateguy]

85. You're drifting into relativism here

You can't define competence, you can't define improvement, you can't define a good teacher, etc.

Well, then why bother even having any standards at all for a K-12 teacher? Why even require a college degree and a certification? After all, who are you to say what qualifications are required for a job that you say cannot be defined by any standards of performance at all?

[Demeter]

72. The Only Way This Makes Sense Is If the Parents and Students Get to Pick

Tests and administrators are useless at evaluating effectiveness.

[jmowreader]

90. Are you SURE?

Science teachers in heavily-Pentecostal areas who teach evolution aren't going to be selected by their students & parents to receive merit pay.

[Demeter]

91. There Is That Issue For Any Intentional Ignorance

[last_texas_dem]

100. That would bring plenty of problems as well

I avoid the "bad" teacher label as much as possible, but I had one high school teacher who only spent about a quarter of the year actually teaching the material in class. However, he was pretty popular because he rarely gave anyone a low grade, and was also liked by many students because they had him as a coach. Thus, despite being the worst teacher that I ever had, he would have done quite well in a merit pay system determined by students and parents as he was well-liked by most of the students (for being easy) and likely well-liked by parents- since parents' impressions of teachers generally come only from what their children tell them.

[totodeinhere]

88. Well, it looks like another chance for so-called...

Democratic Underground posters to dump on our president.

What's wrong with rewarding the best teachers? You don't need standardized test to do that. When I was in school, which wasn't long ago, I knew who the best ones were. And I also knew the worst ones like the one who could not name the president of Mexico. Look, we need to do something about the state of public education in this country. Compared to other industrialized countries, we spend more than most of them per pupil, but our students' test scores are among the worst. Why is that?

[readmoreoften]

104. Oh yeah, it's all about Obama bashing. No legitimate reason to be pissed. Nothing to see here.

:eyes:

You know who the best teachers are? So students decide who gets merit pay? Welcome to a world of teacher-comedians giving all A's and telling 14 yr old what they want to hear to pay their mortgage. "Student evaluations" in college courses have lead to grade inflation. Sometimes students need to learn essentials that they don't want to learn, but later on are glad they did.

The problem with our educational system is not bad teachers it's low funding and a crumbling social infrastructure due to the despair of people who can't afford to feed their families and kids who know they can't afford to go to college. Alcoholism, drug addiction, depression, lack of access to proper medication affects student performance. Not to mention all that NCLB crap.

The Democratic party is a lever on a machine, not a goddamn cult. Obama led progressives on to get their votes. Some of the people who didn't see through it are pissed now. Get over it. Not all of us are in love with your hero. So far I've supported about 15% of his ideas. My only alternative--as you people like to remind me--is Republicans. So don't tell you I have to vote for your guy AND I have to not question his more boneheaded ideas.

[mopinko]

113. i don't think you know much about arne duncan and what he did in chicago.

i know a lot of ugly things have swirled around the blogosphere about arne. but he did a great job here in chicago. he and daley turned around the school system that was the main fuel to white flight that was about to suck the city dry.
most of what people didn't like about arne was that it was his job to implement nclb, and he did. no way we could have survived without federal money. but he fought the more ridiculous aspects, and sometimes won concessions.

i think these guys are perfectly capable of coming up with a way to make sure that good teachers have an incentive to keep at it. the brain drain of burned out teachers is enormous, and it is the good ones that go.

i have had kids in cps for all of arne's tenure, and i support the guy wholeheartedly. arne duncan carrying out bush's orders is one thing. arne duncan carrying the plan that he and barack obama worked out is another.
what makes you dislike him so?

[Robb]

3. Sounds like he wants to re-make the assessment system, too

...Wonder if he tapped our new senator on this (Bennet).

[Le Taz Hot]

6. WTF?

This is bullshit! Has he done NO research on the stupidity of this idea? Simple scenario 1: You're a teacher with 30 5th Graders, all from good, stable well-off families. All of them have computers at home and many other resources available to them. Most of them have parents who are educated and can help them with their homework. As a result, most of the students are scoring in the top 20 percentile in the district on standardized tests.

Scenario 2: You're a teacher with 30 5th graders in your classroom, 8 don't speak a word of English. 12 didn't get to bed before midnight last night and a good portion of them are waiting for lunch because it's the only meal they'll have today and they haven't eaten since lunch yesterday. Of the 30 students, exactly 3 have computers at home. Many have parents who do care but since they lack any type of formal education and some with limited English-speaking ability, they find it difficult, if not impossible, to help their child with their homework. The students in this classroom are scoring at about 60 percentile in the district.

Both hard-working teachers, both dedicated, but guess who is going to get the merit pay?

[tonysam]

9. Yep. That's True.

What Obama and his neoliberal types in the administration believe is schools are businesses and can be run on a business model. But they aren't and they can't.

Next on the agenda will to be abolish step and longevity pay, which has long been used in civil service jobs to prevent nepotism and favoritism, both of which are already rampant in public schools and would worsen if step and longevity pay were ditched.

This is an attack on "tenure," which the GOP, libertarians, and neoliberals have lied about for decades. "Tenure" isn't lifetime employment, never was. Schools can fire teachers, and VERY easily, MUCH more easily than in the private, "at will" sector. The key is to get "troublesome" employees to sign the dotted line and go through arbitration, which almost ALWAYS favors the employer because the arbitrator by definition is biased towards the employer, as the employer (and the union, which in Nevada school districts is an arm of the school district anyway) pays the arbitrator a fee, which runs into many thousands of dollars. They also pay the "union's" lawyers' pay as well. It's a rigged game which more people should know about. Arbitrators may have a place negotiating in union contracts, but otherwise they shouldn't be allowed to exist.

[glinda]

33. It is an attack on Tenure. It is a huge mistake to attack or dismantle it because

the truth is the poor quality teachers should be weeded out in the first years and "not even get Tenure". Secondly, this proposal, unless I am wrong, will open up to all sorts of abuses based upon favoritism, Religions or whatever reason they pick at some point. Thirdly this undermines Unions, which are a huge saving help to Faculty that are harassed, unjustly targeted, or stepped upon for Political purposes. Huge mistake Obama! It is Tenure and Unions that saved my husband's job when younger greedy and inexperienced Faculty were attempting to steal his job by lying about him.

[harmonicon]

11. those are my concerns as well

Maybe it would be determined school-by-school, or based not on test scores but on student and colleague evaluations - still sort of stinks though. That said, it strikes me as almost criminal that there are so many awful teachers who get by just as well as the truly great teachers. I had both types in public school, and I noticed then that it seemed like the best teachers were those who 1. had doctorates, and 2. had kids at home. I think schools just need more funding, but it would be good if some of that could be directed towards the hiring of real academics. I haven't done anything in my life career-wise with literature or latin (the two subjects in highschool I had taught by doctors), but those classes opened my eyes to exploration, made me interested in the world, and made public school seem like something worth doing.

[tonysam]

12. How Do You Know What an "Awful" Teacher Is?

Doctorates and having kids have nothing to do with "effectiveness."

And guess what, there are "awful" employees in every type of endeavor, including in computer work and in the corporate world. That's the breaks in the life.

[enlightenment]

19. tonysam, I don't disagree with some of what you've said so far,

but your abrasive attitude isn't going to attract a lot of readers around here. So far you've managed to tell three people that they don't know what they're talking about, simply because you apparently don't like what they've said.

If you're going to position yourself as the only expert on the subject you should, at the very least, share your bonafides - and try being a bit more civil in your responses while you're at it.

[FireFly70]

24. Agreed

[tonysam]

82. I Don't Have an "Abrasive" Attitude.

It is just so many people think that because they have been students in schools, that makes them experts, and they really know how to "fix" the public school system. That is like saying because you go to see a doctor, you are an expert on medicine or that because you go to a lawyer, you are an expert in the law.

[enlightenment]

93. The point is that you don't know what experiences the

people here are bringing to the discussion, any more than we know what experience you are bringing. I will assume, based on your comments, that you are a K-12 teacher, with a degree in education.

Assuming that is correct, that makes you an educated human, with some experience in the US school system. Perhaps you have a great deal of experience; you might even be an administrator of some sort. That gives you some validity, but it does not give you a right to presume that you are the only person in the discussion who has any right to comment. It doesn't even make you an 'expert' on how to fix the system.

If you are an expert then prove it; until you do, you're just another anonymous poster positing your opinion . . . and being pretty rude about it, too. You don't have to prove anything, of course, any more than any other poster does - but if you want to dismiss others opinions because you don't know their bonafides you have to expect that they are going to dismiss your opinions for the same reason.

As for your attitude; denying that your responses are abrasive does nothing but prove they are, because in this case it's not about how you perceive yourself - it's about how others perceive you.

[readmoreoften]

105. You're on an internet discussion board talking to a person who is facing their field

be further mangled by an incompetent bureaucracy. Of course he or she is going to be abrasive. Teachers don't support merit pay. Their UNIONS don't. Education Ph.D.s do not. Any poster on an anonymous board who writes nonsense like "standardization is important" is ignorant of the topic in general, and frankly, taking an anti-union, anti-worker position.

Instead of blaming teachers, maybe it's time to look at the system, at NCLB, and at the inequity in this nation for the source of its continual dumbing down. If that's abrasive, so be it.

[harmonicon]

20. how do I know?

I went to school, and I had bad teachers. They didn't respect the students as intelligent human beings capable of advanced critical thought, they didn't display care or deep knowledge of the subject they were entrusted to teach; in short, they failed to inspire a desire to acquire knowledge.

I know that there are awful employees in all business, but I don't think that teaching should be a business - it is a public service which the few good teachers sacrifice their lives to.

I could care less about "effectiveness" in terms of test results. I am just recounting my personal experiences and how these good doctors were effective in inspiring me to learn and go onto higher education. These were also the people who wrote my college recommendation letters, etc. When one of these teachers died, I went to his funeral, and was horribly torn up. That was 11 or 12 years ago, and I feel the loss to this day. About how many teachers can we say that? That they have this effect on their students? That is a good teacher in my book.

[tonysam]

16. The LAST Thing Public Schools Should Have are "Academic" Teachers.

You've got to be kidding. One can know the subject material, but above all you HAVE to know HOW to relate to children. A lot of "academics" can't do this. They can communicate with adults, but with children, forget it. I am not just talking about high school students, either.

[harmonicon]

21. Did you miss point #2?

2. Have kids at home

Did you miss that?

[Bill McBlueState]

59. the problem is

that there are plenty of the opposite kind of teacher to go around: pretty good at relating to children, but lacking adequate knowledge of the subject matter. Watching my 11th-grade math teacher try to explain matrices when she didn't understand them herself was just sad.

I appreciate programs like the NSF's GK-12, where graduate students in the sciences get fellowships to work in local classrooms. There should be expanded attempts to train PhD-holders and -seekers in modern pedagogy.

[cali]

15. that can be dealt with. You don't compare those two teachers.

Period. Do you have evidence that under Obama's plan, those two teachers would be compared as a way of determining which teacher receives merit pay?

[Le Taz Hot]

22. I've never seen a merit system

wherein standardized tests were not an integral part of said system. And Arne Duncan? This guy is about as competent in his position as "Brownie" was in his.

[FireFly70]

25. Why do you say this about Duncan?

What proof do you have to back up this claim?

[Le Taz Hot]

29. Here's just ONE article I found

There are many more if you care to DO THE RESEARCH YOURSELF. The fact is, the guy is a huge proponent of NCLB.

OBAMA SLAM-DUNCANS EDUCATION

by Greg Palast

New York. Tuesday, December 16,

Hey, you Liberal Democrats. You may have won the election, but you're getting CREAMED in the transition.



Today, President-elect Barack Obama stuck it to you. He's chosen Arne Duncan as Secretary of Education.

Who? Duncan is most decidedly NOT an educator. He's a lawyer. But Duncan has this extraordinary qualification: He's Obama's pick-up basketball buddy from Hyde Park.

I can't make this up.

Not that Duncan hasn't mucked about in the educational system. Chicago Boss Richie Daley put this guy in charge of the horror show called Chicago Public Schools where Duncan turned a bad system into a REALLY bad system.

And Obama knows it. Indeed, although he plays roundball with Duncan (who was captain of the Harvard basketball team), State Senator Obama was one of the only local Chicago officials who refused to send his kids to Duncan's public schools. (The Obamas sent Sasha and Malia to the Laboratory School, where Duncan's methods are derided as dangerously ludicrous.)

So, if The One won't trust his kids to Duncan, why is he handing Duncan ours?

The answer: Duncan is supported by a coterie of teacher-union hating Republicans. The vocal cheerleader for the Duncan appointment was David Brooks, the New York Times columnist; the REPUBLICAN columnist.

Hey, didn't those guys LOSE?

The problem with Duncan is not party affiliation. The problem is education philosophy. And Duncan is a Bush baby through and through, a card-carrying supporter of the program best called, "No Child's Behind Left."

At the heart of the program is testing. And more testing. Testing instead of teaching. When tests go badly, the solution is to push the low-test-score kids to drop out of school. If triage isn't enough, then attack their teachers.

Here's how Duncan operates this Bush program in Chicago at Collins High in the Lawndale ghetto. Teachers there work with kids from homeless shelters from an economically devastated neighborhood. Believe it or not, the kids don't get high test scores. So Chicago fired the teachers, every one of them. Then they brought in new teachers and fired THEM too when, surprise!, test scores still didn't rise.

The reward for a teacher volunteering for a tough neighborhood is to get harassed, blamed and fired. Now THAT'S a brilliant program, Mr. Duncan. But Duncan's own failures have not gotten HIM fired. As long as his 20-foot jumpshot holds, he's Mr. Secretary.

In no other cabinet department is the lack of expertise, lack of accomplishment, lack of a degree in the field found acceptable but in Education.

But what horrifies me more than Duncan's lack of credentials is Obama's kowtowing to the right-wing clique crusading against the teachers' union and progressive education. The ill philosophy behind the Bush-brand education theories Duncan promotes, "Teach-to-the-Test," forces teachers to limit classroom time to pounding in rote low-end skills, easily measured on standardized tests. The transparent purpose is to create a future class of worker-drones. Add in some computer training and - voila! - millions of lower-income kids are trained on the cheap to function, not think.

Analytical thinking skills, creative skills, questioning skills are left exclusively to privileged little Bushes at Phillips Andover Academy or privileged little Obamas at the Laboratory School.

For the rest of America's children, instead of hope, we'll have hoops.

[Dinger]

98. Very Sobering Article

And Palast knows what he's talking about.

[readmoreoften]

106. Good lord, who did I vote for. Depressing.

Thanks for posting this.

[Bread and Circus]

17. I have a feeling Obama is smart enough to compare like scenarios w/ like scenarios...

and I wouldn't doubt he might set aside more money for those teaching in arduous situations.

[bluestateguy]

31. You reward the teacher who produces improvement in their students

You raise a fair point, which is why we should be rewarding improvement above all else, not just high test scores and high grades.

[tonysam]

80. The Problem Is, You Can't Measure This.

I repeat: Schools are NOT businesses, and you CANNOT put a business model on education. Any such attempt will fail.

A lot of people do NOT understand there are horrendous administrators; as somebody who has worked in both public and private employment including public education, there are no WORSE bosses than those in public education. There are some true asshole principals and higher-ups.

[timtom]

111. tonysam

I have read your posts on this thread and I agree with what you say. You echo opinions I have held concerning education since 1961, when, in a college Psychology class, the instructor blithely said, "Schizophrenia is split personality -- Jekyll and Hyde." I grimaced inwardly, as I had read a couple of books on psychiatry and psychoanalysis a few months before. It totally killed my enthusiasm. I have also had excellent teachers in all the disciplines. Degree, schmegree. Totally irrelevant.

I finally got a degree in Management and, despite that, feel quite confident that I could effectively teach English at the High School level, with very few hours in English, per se.

And, as to merit-based evaluation as proposed, it becomes apparent that no one in this discourse has any familiarity with Deming's studies in process control.

Everyone in any organizational leadership role whatever should be completely familiar with Deming's Red Bead experiment:

http://maaw.info/DemingsRedbeads.htm

This is a must-read for anyone even contemplating such a proposal as President Obama has put forth.

[Neurotica]

23. I think you'd have to compare the students against themselves from the start

of the school year to the end. This would probably involve some standardized testing, although I don't believe that these types of tests are the true measure of achievement. Other more subjective information would be necessary to get an accurate picture, but I'm not sure how you set metrics for evaluation.

Comparing students against themselves (meaning assessing their progress over a year's time) would help to alleviate some of the concerns about socioeconomic differences that influence standardized test scores.

[GreenPartyVoter]

27. This is one of the reasons my husband got out of teaching. He is an excellent teacher but

to make his income depend upon children who perhaps refuse to learn, that was just unfair. And before anyone suggests that a "good teacher" should be able to inspire all of his students, let me just point out that it can take several years and teams of teachers to reshape those children into inspired and dedicated students. (Especially if they are swimming upstream against a negative environment in the home.)

[ryanmuegge]

68. Schools send a terrible message to kids.

It starts at the top with the university academics who come up with these crazy theories about critical literacy, "authentic assessment," "learner-centered" education, differentiation, or whatever buzz terms are popular this week. The end result is that the schools just make excuses for every kind of behavior. Nobody thinks that there are official consequences for their actions. Employers expect total conformity and a very specific skill set. They are not going to change the job to fit the worker's needs. They are not going to care about somebody's emotional hangups or subjective clinical labels. The public education system must start serving kids and resemble the real world more. Letting the inmates run the asylum is a horrible idea.

All of this "it's all the fault of the teachers" is complete nonsense. That kind of crap that is coming from the high-level academics is the theory behind this merit pay and NCLB stuff.

[DumpDavisHogg]

28. If he supports school uniforms, I'm never voting Democratic again

Not like the DLC hasn't driven me to the Greens already. The Democrats are lucky the Greens haven't been on the presidential ballot in Kentucky in ages.

If he does support uniforms, I'm never again voting Democratic for any office, not even dog catcher.

By the way, you can delete this message if you want, for supporting another party. Uniforms don't belong in public schools, period, and it's time we get that clear.

[WriteDown]

32. So your big issue is school uniforms?

Seriously? Something that reduces the cost of the clothes competition among kids tends to be a good thing. Unless of course you want to get your kids whatever Abercrombie and Fitch tells them they need to be "cool."

[DumpDavisHogg]

34. Then I guess you think school-imposed groupthink is "cool" too?

Violating Tinker v. Des Moines is not "cool."

[WriteDown]

35. Since Obama is sending his kids to a school

that requires uniforms, I think he's on the right track. Once again, look to successful school systems like the Japanese. Less time spent on the latest fashion accessories and more time spent on actual schoolwork.

[DumpDavisHogg]

37. Sidwell Friends School does NOT require uniforms

According to Wikipedia:

"Sidwell dropped its dress code in the 1970s."

(Unless this has suddenly changed in the past few months.)

[WriteDown]

38. Interesting...

I may be mistaken, but that does not change my opinion. Clothes competition is BRUTAL is schools and anything done to reduce this is a good thing. Not to mention the 1000's of dollars many parents spend each year on their kids clothes.

[DumpDavisHogg]

39. Then blame the media for accepting ads for kid's clothes

My kids shouldn't be required to dress like geeks all because some ads try to tell kids what's "cool."

And believe me, I'm the kind of person who files lawsuits over dress codes.

[WriteDown]

54. So school uniforms make kids look like geeks?

Are you sure your a parent and not a student in a junior high? :rofl:

[DumpDavisHogg]

55. I'm 35 (n/t)

[Freddie Stubbs]

40. Has any court ever held that requiring school uniforms violates the Tinker decision?

:shrug:

[DumpDavisHogg]

42. Isn't it pretty self-evident? (n/t)

[theboss]

64. Not in the least

Unless a Fall Out Boy T shirt is the same as a Political Button.

[Freddie Stubbs]

65. Considering the fact that many schools reqire unifroms, yes it is self-evident

[theboss]

63. Nope

Nor would it. Unless it went way out into left field.

[bluestateguy]

44. It should be left up to the individual school, not the federal government

not even the state government or the school district. Let the school decide. I can see the merit behind school uniforms in some situations: in a wealthy school, every day is like a fashion show, which can be a bit exasperating, especially for girls. In poorer schools, uniforms help parents to avoid the hassle associated with paying for back to school clothes every year (but somebody has to pay for the uniforms too).

[DumpDavisHogg]

46. Tinker v. Des Moines isn't a local option though

Fortunately, we don't get to decide what federal laws and court rulings we follow, and which ones we don't. Tinker v. Des Moines isn't just a "damn piece of paper" (as Bush would say). It is the law, and it's based on the Bill of Rights.

The Bill of Rights lists rights that we are endowed with by nature, and we are expected by nature to have the courage to keep these rights.

[bluestateguy]

53. That case concerns political expression

School uniforms don't preclude political expression. You can still wear a button or an armband on your uniform to express yourself. The school would not be able to stop you.

[theboss]

62. No one here no what that case actually means

That's about political expression only.

School uniforms don't fall under Tinker - which has always been defined narrowly.

Case after case after case has been held to show that students don't have the same rights as adults. Yet, DUers never grasp that. Oh well. I've tried.

[Freddie Stubbs]

114. What specifically did the Tinker decision say about school uniforms?

:shrug:

[snooper2]

50. rofl

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[DumpDavisHogg]

56. I know...It'll be really funny if the Democrats lose support over this, won't it? (n/t)

[snooper2]

58. Well, it's a pretty deep issue many people are passionate about

I just wonder if the moderator at the next Presidential debate will have the balls to bring this sensitive issue up.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[skipos]

74. I am very glad that we had uniforms in school

But then again, I came from a family that couldn't afford the kinds of clothes that most kids would have been wearing. Uniforms saved me from years of being ridiculed as trailer trash. All the kids looked the same, no daily fashion show, no easy way to tell who was rich and who wasn't.

And by the way, this...
"The Democrats are lucky the Greens haven't been on the presidential ballot in Kentucky in ages"
is the funniest thing I have read in long time!

[riverdale]

102. wish we had them in my schools

My parents were always broke as a joke, and on top of that didn't particularly concern themselves with caring for the kids. As a result I had to wear ridiculously worn or out of style clothes, over and over. In the 9th grade of high school, I started out with 2 pairs of jeans. One became unwearable, so the 2nd half of the year I had to wear the same jeans every damn day. As soon as I was old enough to work, I used all my job money for clothes and food.

[Zynx]

94. I used to be opposed to school uniforms, but they actually make a lot of sense.

They would remove one of the many toxic components of high school culture. The fundamental problem in public schools is a nasty culture. It drives a lot of kids out of the system. I have come to believe that a loose school uniform code would help deal with one of the many components. I think another one is to separate sports and dances out of the schools and to make those community events. There are public parks and fields. Sporting events can happen there. Dances can be hosted outside of the school.

School should be primarily a learning environment and not tack on all of the useless and destructive social bullshit that occurs.

[eridani]

115. I don't think of this as a huge issue

There was plenty wrong with the Catholic schools I went to, but wearing uniforms was not one of them. It saved a lot of money and hassle.

[bluestateguy]

30. I'm all for it, IF we can find a fair way to measure performance

How we do that? I don't know, but it should not be by way of standardized tests.

I'm all for teacher tenure; it has to happen to protect teachers from power drunk administrators or powerful parents with a vendetta against an unpopular teacher, BUT tenure is sometimes abused by teachers who just suck and are impossible to get rid of. I've seen it happen.

[last_texas_dem]

36. Bleh

Obama's support for so-called merit pay was the biggest beef I had with him during the primaries, and I am disappointed that he hasn't dropped his support for this idea.

As some have noted upthread, I suppose it is entirely possible that Obama's support for the "merit pay" concept could indicate a support instead for programs that have had nothing to do with the idea in its traditional sense. If so, I wish the administration would stay away from using the term altogether, as it has negative associations for many.

Bottom line for me is, if so-called "merit pay" involves basing teachers' pay on the output, in one form or another, or opinions of their students, it's an unfair way to determine a teachers' pay. Stock every classroom in the nation with like-minded robots of similar intelligence levels, demeanors, and backgrounds, and perhaps a case could be made. Otherwise, it's the same shit idea it's always been, regardless of whether it's being proposed by a Democratic or Republican president.

[Number9Dream]

41. "Merit Pay" often becomes ass-kissing contest

I don't know if many of you have ever been in a "merit pay" situation, but I have. It quickly degenerated into an ass-kissing contest. There'll always be bosses who prefer brown-nosers to more competent workers. It's very difficult to objectively measure performance in many work situations.

[wickerwoman]

60. Plus the best teachers are rarely the most popular ones.

If my bonuses depended on it, I wouldn't give a shit when students turned up late, skipped class, didn't have their homework, spent the whole class texting, bullied each other, destroyed school property, turned in lazy, half-assed papers, bought their assignments off the internet, etc. I've busted students for all of those things and all of them gave me bad student reviews. Should I lose pay because I give a shit if my students actually learn something in my class (vs. being their bestest buddy)?

[Sabriel]

43. Yes, let's run education like auto sales.

If you can "sell" math this year, you'll get a tidy bonus in your paycheck.

Kids aren't cars, and the process of acquiring knowledge isn't a business. If I'm averagely successful with 90% of my students but very successful with the 10% hardcore truants and disaffected ones, do I get merit pay?

Ultimately, there's no way to measure the impact a teacher has on students. In many cases, it's a gradual, long-term process. Changing minds and attitudes isn't a contract like a car sale.

For all of you out there who think merit pay is a great idea, let me ask you this: how would you like your pay to be based on variables over which you have absolutely zero control? So that no matter how many hours you put in, the results may actually be worse than last year?

I thought so.

[bluestateguy]

45. One thing I would have liked to see addressed: school discipline

An otherwise fine speech, with some good ideas, but schools need the freedom to expel chronically troublesome and/or violent students who just make everybody else's live miserable and unsafe.

[DumpDavisHogg]

57. Schools need a "one-strike" policy against bullies

One act of bullying, and the bully should be expelled.

That should be the rule.

Let them stay at home and stay dumb.

[Thothmes]

76. then the criminal justice system gets to deal with them

when they hit 18. Then the social services systems gets to pick them up as they get older. Real sound policy.

[DumpDavisHogg]

84. Bullies are criminals, so why not? (n/t)

[Thothmes]

86. lets fill the pens up with them obviously trying to correct the

behavior is to difficult< so just toss them to the prison industrial complex>

[Sparkly]

47. Reports on the wires now.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090310/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_education

I think it's a shame, because there's no way to take into account all the factors OTHER than teachers' work in assessing children's scores.

[harun]

51. Awesome. GOBAMA!!!

And that isn't sarcasm.

[Marie26]

52. Asinine idea

But you can't say he didn't warn about this.

[Bill McBlueState]

61. We have some pretty smart educators in this country

I bet teachers unions can work with management to figure out a way to identify which of their members are doing their jobs better than others and reward them for it. For reasons stated above, test scores aren't the way to do it. But there has to be a way. If we can't distinguish which of two people is a better teacher, why require qualifications at all? Why not just let anyone come off the street and teach?

[Hannah Bell]

67. Gee, Depression economics & Obama wants merit pay for teachers.

What a shocker.

[ryanmuegge]

69. Appealing to his REPUBLICAN base, no doubt.

[dynasaw]

78. Merit Pay? Hell . . .

LA Unified is going to be laying off thousands because they can't even afford regular pay.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3776387

[readmoreoften]

107. How brave of him to take on the teachers union at a time like this.

The clear enemies of learning :sarcasm:

[Thothmes]

75. Call me cynical

but I think this is Obama playing to the audience. He knows that it is highly unlikely that a Democratically controlled House and Senate will buy into merit pay for teachers. But it does make a hell of a good sound bite. JMO

[last_texas_dem]

101. This is my hope as well.

"Gettin' tough on those lazy teachers (and particularly those goldurn teachers' unions)" seems to play pretty well with the general public (and even quite a few DUers). Regardless of whether or not merit pay can be fairly instituted, and I have yet to hear of a method by which it can, the idea of it does work as a political ploy.

[readmoreoften]

108. Playing to WHAT audience? Why piss off teachers to win over Republicans?

Apparently he wants Republicans to vote for him in 2012, because he's sure doesn't seem interested in retaining the votes of rank and file dems.

[funnymanpants]

77. Terrible, terrible, policy

Obama's secretary of education is a disaster:

(Next paragraph is a quote.)

He invoked corporate investment terms to describe reforms explaining that the 100 new schools would leverage influence on the other 500 schools in Chicago. Redefining schools as stock investments he said, "I am not a manager of 600 schools. I'm a portfolio manager of 600 schools and I'm trying to improve the portfolio."

http://www.truthout.org/121708R

I'm heartened to see other posters recognize the stupidity of this idea. I'm been in the public school systems 13 years. It infuriates me beyond belief whenever I hear the slogans thrown around. Everyone knows how to fix the school system: better bests, more accountability, higher expectations, etc. Anyone who mouths one of these slogans has never spend a day in the American school system. If I had to describe it in one sentence, I would say it is a system of chaos, in which most students (except a small minority) are outright hostile towards teachers and are backed by their parents. Let me rephrase that by saying that this description applies to junior high and high school. Some real learning does go on in grades 1-6, but after that, our school systems are, to quote Toni Morrison, a holding pen.

And Obama thinks merit pay will fix the mess?

Let me add that the state I'm from has had education reform in place for a good decade. The newspapers love this education reform, but the supposed gains are based on statistics that are gamed. See Bob Somberly's website for the best reporting on this issue:

dailyhowler.com

Somberly is a big critic of the media, so you should love him for that. But he is very specific and factual when it comes to the nonsense that counts for education reporting.

[Dinger]

87. I Heard Nothing In That Speech About Equal Accountability Between

private/charter & public schools. In most states, they are not held to the same standard. Then I hear that goddamned arne duncan saying he's heard from teacher's who love it? I call bullshit, bull-fucking-shit in fact. Then I hear President Obama (who I voted for and worked hard for and donated to) alienate farmers too. That includes rural voters as well, many of whom voted for repukes in the past, and voted for Obama in November. Is he concentrating all his efforts in urban areas? No, I imagine not, but it sure looks to favor big cities, with big populations. He needs the support of these groups. I thought he was smarter with his words.
I can tell you as a teacher, that there will be a very small minority of public school educators who support this, and our unions have been strongly supportive of our president and in Wisconsin, we have been a powerful force in getting Democrats in office, our governor in particular. We vote for people who support public schools, and do not support those who don't. President Obama's and duncan's approach is not a comprehensive, broad-based one. It's charter schools mostly, and not much else. He ignores us at his (& his fellow Democrats) political peril. I can promise you that.

[funnymanpants]

89. Yes, I share your anger

>>I can tell you as a teacher, that there will be a very small minority of public school educators who support this,

Yes, but you understand that because you are a teacher. Arne Duncan, Obama's education secretary, has never taught before! As you know, almost every single education reform comes from bureaucrats and from people who don't have the faintest notion of what is really going on. Oh, but the slogans and simple solutions sound so good, don't they?

By the way, if unions oppose this measure (as they should), all the Repubs, as well as many Dems, will just say that unions don't want change, that they just want to protect the "easy" work (ha!) of teachers, etc.

[JackDragna]

92. Something to consider..

..with all other issues about determining the skills of teachers in rich/poor districts nonwithstanding, how does one evaluate the efficacy of those teachers whose output is not easily measured? How will we determine the deservedness of special education, music, art and physical education teachers for a raise?

[scubadude]

96. Illinois has standardized testing and my wifes experience...

is a perfect model for why merit pay won't work.

This is me, not her talking, so I can only relate from my discussions with her.

Her experience as a high school science aide and teacher illustrates both ends of the educational spectrum in Illinois. She worked in a very high income school district as an aide, and in one of the lowest income school districts as a teacher. School funding here is based on property taxes.

Her experience was that in the high income area, kids came to school ready to learn, with a respect for discipline, and full bellies. Although there were several children who were mentally or physically challenged in each class, they were the minority and each one was attended to by an aide. She was treated by the children humanely, as were all the teachers, and there were almost no discipline problems. The funding for the school was off the chart, the classrooms were chock full of state of the art hardware, software and supplies. The building was modern and comfortable, heated in the winter and cooled in the summer. Further, most of the children's parents had college degrees and came to their parent teacher conferences. Class size was around 20 kids in a class.

Guess what, the kids scored very high on their state wide standardized achievement tests.

The kids from the very low income area came to school hungry, with many of them getting free or reduced cost lunches because their parents couldn't pay for them. Other more experienced teachers would transfer the "bad" students into my wife's class, with one of the students actually saying to her "They transferred me into the retard class". In my wife's class, most of the kids had mental and or physical problems, and there were 3 aids in the entire school, spread out for the 125 special ed kids. The children treated my wife terribly, shouting and cussing at her regularly, and the discipline problems were off the chart. The funding for the school was in the toilet. My wife had to bring in her own supplies, which included such items as a VCR, chalk, lab supplies (science teacher). There were almost no computers anywhere in the school except the computer lab, which to be used had to be signed out months ahead of time. The building was very old and falling apart, freezing cold in the winter and sweltering hot in the summer. Very few of the kids parents had college degrees, and many of them couldn't speak English. Only 3 of the 140 students parents showed up for parent teachers conference. Class size was around 30 to 35 kids in a class... Can you imagine a class where 35 kids of this nature were being controlled by one teacher, most of the time with no aides and no backup from the Dean?


Guess what, the kids scored very poorly on their state wide standardized achievement tests.

It the high income area the average teachers pay was in the mid $80,000 range and the low income area the pay was in the $35,000 range.

Under a merit pay system you'd be screwed in either scenario.

You cannot make the kids scores in the high income area any higher. They were already at the apex, though the teachers pay was already very high.

You cannot make many of the kid's scores in my wife's class in the low income area any higher, many of them could not speak English (some couldn't write their names) and were reading at a low grade school level while in high school. Many of them were already involved in the juvenile justice system. These kids need more than a teacher to improve their performance. They need food, medical attention, safe homes, and caring parents.

It is very sad to say that many of these children are trapped. Very sad indeed. Teachers cannot be expected to fix the entire country's problems.

Scuba

[readmoreoften]

109. And teachers will flee from working-class neighborhoods more than they already do.

It's atrocious.

[lucretia54]

97. Why don't we...

value our teachers more for what they do and pay them ALL
more!

[scubadude]

99. Yeah, and give the parents a decent income so they can

raise their children more responsively.... It's going to take more than teachers to cure this problem. See my post above.

Scuba

[readmoreoften]

110. I get so irritated when people say "Where are the parents?!!!" on threads.

Where are the parents? Working two jobs. Underpaid. Forced to work swing shifts and getting little sleep. Where the hell do ya think they are? The system is crumbling. Blaming the teachers is not the solution.

[Vidar]

116. Very bad idea.