Ted Kennedy to receive knighthood

[dipsydoodle]

Source: British Broadcasting Corporation

Veteran US senator Ted Kennedy, 77, is to be awarded an honorary knighthood.

The Queen has agreed the honour for the brother of former US president John F Kennedy for services to the US-UK relationship and to Northern Ireland.


Apart from his famous family connections, he is probably best known in the UK for his work on the Northern Ireland peace process.

>

He has been intricately involved with province's politics, meeting Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams and other politicians during and beyond the Good Friday agreement.

He famously snubbed Adams during the latter's St Patrick's Day trip to the US in 2005 following the brutal killing of Robert McCartney.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7922703.stm

[99th_Monkey]

1. That's way cool. Go Teddy! ~nt~

[Staph]

3. That's Sir Teddy, thank you very much!

;-)

[JonesJitter]

14. You rock!

I have a lot of respect for this guy!

All the best,

Jones
Dating.co.uk

[Rhiannon12866]

2. K&R. Very cool and well-deserved!

He's done incredible work during his years in the Senate, deserves any accolade that anyone can come up with... :patriot:

[DUlover2909]

4. K&R - Go Sir Edward!

:kick: :toast:

[Sultana]

5. Sir Edward, it has a very nice ring to it

:evilgrin:

Congrats, Sen. Kennedy :applause:

[No Elephants]

6. he doesn't get to call himself "Sir," but I called him that before he got knighted anyway. Seems as

though you get the "sir" with the knighthood only if you are a British citizen.

[dipsydoodle]

10. That's a technicality

only because as you say Sir Edward, to be, is not a British subject and hence does not have allegiance to the Queen.
So - he won't be dubbed by the Queen at Buckingham Palace I guess.

I bet in future , regardless of custom and practice , he's referred to here on DU as either Sir Edward or the more affectionate Sir Teddy and should he be well enough to come over here I reckon our press would address him accordingly.

Albeit age related , lol , the Kennedys remain very popular in the UK.

[nxylas]

25. Yes, his title will be Edward Kennedy, KBE

Which stands for Knight of the Order of the British Empire. "Sir" is only for British citizens, as you say.

[Ken Burch]

74. Well, "Knight of the Order of the British Empire" is a fairly ironic title for an Irish-American

I'd like to think Teddy got a bit of a chuckle out of that.

[dflprincess]

106. I wonder what the Kennedys and Fitzgeralds who came over during the Hunger would think

I've always wondered if one of the reasons FDR made Joe Kennedy ambassador to the Court of St. James because he enjoyed the irony of an Irish Catholic in that position.

At least the Brits have finally learned to appreciate (some of) us.

[Darth_Kitten]

115. And an Irish American Catholic at that......

this is ironic on too many levels.

[LeftCoastNinja]

7. Cool

I can't wait for the day Ted Kennedy finally sees a Universal Health bill care passed through congress. That will truly be his defining moment. I know he is nearing the end, but I think he will see this before he passes. O8)

[jordi_fanclub]

8. Yes!!! K&r (n/t)

[Raine]

9. That's so COOL!

Cheers to Teddy! :thumbsup: :bounce:

[BumRushDaShow]

11. Congrats to Teddy!

:applause:

[Fearless]

12. Teehee!

:patriot:

[Ian David]

13. Isn't it a violation of The U.S. Constitution to hold public office if you have a "noble title?" n/t

[Matilda]

15. I believe that such an honour for a US citizen has to be approved by Congress.

I'm sure that's all been done, and congrats to Teddy!

A note on Orders of Chivalry for non-British citizens:

"Honorary knighthoods, given to individuals who are not citizens of a Commonwealth Realm permit use of the post-nominal "KBE" or "DBE" but not the title "Sir" or "Dame". While substantive knighthoods are limited in number, honorary knighthoods are not."

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Order_of_the_British_Empire#encyclopedia

So I guess he'll become "Edward Kennedy, KBE".

It has a nice ring to it.

[Ian David]

62. Sounds good to me! n/t

[slackmaster]

28. From Article I, Section 9

No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

[No Elephants]

119. It's like an honorary college degree. It has no other effect.

[Pacifist Patriot]

99. I'm curious as to whether or not Congress considers the KBE a noble title since...

apparently John Warner, Colin Powell, Norman, Schwarzkopf, Wesley Clark, Ronald Reagan, Rudolph Guiliani, Bush Sr. have all received the award.

I've not found the legislation granting exceptions so perhaps since it is not considered a landed title with noble responsibilities or obligations, it is accepted as merely an honorific and not under the dictates of the prohibition in the Constitution.

[LeftishBrit]

108. This wouldn't give him a title; it's an honour but doesn't make him Sir or Lord Anything

[stlsaxman]

16. What is protocol? Sir Senator Kennedy or Senator Sir Edward?

I wanna make sure Pigboy gets it right.

[dipsydoodle]

17. Custom and practice would dicate

Sir Edward.

[No Elephants]

120. No sir.

[Matilda]

18. As a non-British citizen, he can't use the title

But he can put the letters "KBE" (Knight Commander of the British Empire)
after his name.


Edited to add: If he was able to use the title, it would be "Senator Sir
Edward Kennedy"

[sledgehammer]

23. I think you mean Commonweatlh citizen

Because there's Sir Donald Bradman, Sir Richard Hadlee, Sir Gary Sobers, etc.

[No Elephants]

121. British subject?

[Retrograde]

150. Senator Kennedy

We don't do no stinkin' titles here.

Article 1 Section 9:

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.

IMHO, he should say thanks, but no thanks.

[Christa]

19. Nobody deserves it more

Way to go!! :toast: :loveya:

[BrklynLiberal]

20. That is a wonderful way to honor a man who truly deserves it.

I am thrilled that they did not wait to do it posthumously.

[Brimon]

22. Apologies if I don't share the joy.

Kennedy has always been anti-British & whoever decided this was a good idea, probably Gordon Brown, is seriously misguided. This,for me anyway, is proof that the "Honours System" has become a politcal back scratching excerise & that it should revert back to The Queen deciding who gets "honoured" rather than have politicians use it as a political bauble.

[Marrah_G]

21. Sir Edward- he has indeed earned that title.

[Romulox]

24. IMO, it's inappropriate for a Congressman to accept a rank of nobility from a foreign government.

Remember, we pretend that we have a government "by the people, for the people".

It's bad enough that one must be wealthy and have attended Harvard to get into government.

[nxylas]

26. It's not a title of nobility

The equivalent would be a foreign citizen receiving the Congressional Medal of Honor, which happens sometimes.

[Romulox]

27. IMO it is a rank of nobility, handed out by the Queen after much bowing and scraping.

It is incompatible with American democracy.

[TechBear_Seattle]

29. Your opinion is incorrect

The Order of the British Empire is a recognition of service, not a title of nobility. Anyway, he cannot use the customary "Sir" because he is not a subject of the Crown.

[Romulox]

53. Your subject topic is oxymoronic!

Opinions can't be "incorrect". At any rate, whether it is a "rank of nobility" or not is a matter of debate.

[TechBear_Seattle]

61. Under British law, there is no debate

The Order of the British Empire carries no enoblement at any rank. Being named a Knight does not in any way make the recipient a Peer.

[Romulox]

66. British law is not the operative law here. nt

[TechBear_Seattle]

68. Not only is it operative, it is at the very heart of the matter

Let us look at the US Constitution, Article I, Section 9, para. 8: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

British law states clearly that honorary knighthood in the Order of the British Empire comes with no gift, no remuneration, no position with the government of the United Kingdom, and no title, not even permission to use "Sir" or "Dame." How, then, can this Constitutional prohibition be invoked?

[Romulox]

80. Of course it isn't.

British law could characterize the monarchy as a "public relations" position; that would not control whether a Congress-person accepting such position would run afoul of Art. I § 9.

[No Elephants]

123. And if my aunt were my uncle....

[LanternWaste]

81. self-delete.

Self delete.

All the relevant is readily available if one wants to find out actual information, tradition, and legalities.

[TechBear_Seattle]

82. Which some people abjectly refuse to do n/t

[LanternWaste]

83. I know...

I know... I suppose there are those who want to learn, and those who want to argue, and never the 'twain shall meet.

[No Elephants]

126. No the COTUS is. The COTUS says he cannot accept a foreign title. If it is not a title

under British law, no one offered him a foreign title. Therefore he could not possible, and did not, accept one.

[demokatgurrl]

31. No bowing and scraping necessary

Just ask Mick Jagger.

[Lorien]

34. You can keep your opinion. It's an honor, not an acceptance into a

the circle of blue blooded foreign landed gentry. Cartoonist Charles Schultz had a similar Knighthood from Italy; didn't make him a member of the Italian nobility (he was German, after all).

[Romulox]

54. My mistake. I thought this was a discussion board.

"It's an honor, not an acceptance into a the circle of blue blooded foreign landed gentry."

Then why must it be handed out by the queen? :hi:

[TechBear_Seattle]

57. Does a Congressional Medal of Honor make one a Representative or Senator?

Because one receives a Medal of Honor from the President, does that make the recipient a member of the President's cabinet?

One of the duties of a head of state is to present the country's formal recognitions. The Crown is the head of state for the United Kingdom; therefore, it is one of the Crown's duties to present the UK's formal recognitions, just as it is one of the President's duties to present the United States' formal recognitions.

[Romulox]

65. Does a Congressional Medal of Honor originate in the feudal system?

[Pacifist Patriot]

87. *sigh* Yes I suppose the feudal system was alive and kicking in 1917.

That's sarcastic in case you missed it.

[Romulox]

92. Its vestiges are obviously alive in 2009

"That's sarcastic in case you missed it."

Did you notice that the message you were responding to was also sarcastic? (hint: I know the Congressional Medal of Honor did not originate in the feudal system, but knighthood did! :hi: )

[Pacifist Patriot]

86. Because she is the ceremonial figurehead?

Believe anything you like, but you do appear stubbornly ignorant if you persist on the claim this is a noble title.

[Romulox]

91. You are silly, calling anyone who disagrees with you "ignorant"

No one is arguing the minutiae of British nobility here but you. Some of us feel it unseemly for a representative of our democracy to accept a title from a foreign potentate with its origin in feudalism.

I might label you "ignorant" for your obliviousness of the history between Britain and the US, and why an representative of our Democracy accepting such baubles from the aristocracy might offend some. But I won't. :silly:

[Pacifist Patriot]

95. Actually, some are.

Carry on.

[No Elephants]

124. The OBE was established for the first time in 1917. That is not "origin in feudalism."

[No Elephants]

125. Who said it must be handed out by the queen? I hereby make you a Member of the OBE.

[No Elephants]

122. It is NOT a rank of nobility, though. It's purely honorary, like an honorary doctorate from a

university. It does not actually mean anything in the real world. You recognize the person's contribution with a faux title, period, be it "Doctor" or Member of the OBE. And, inasmuch as he is not a British subject, he is not even entitled to use the "Sir," as is Sir Elton John.

[bdamomma]

30. Sir Edward, I like it.

He deserves it.

[Lorien]

32. That sound you heard was Freeper heads exploding

good for Kennedy!

[axollot]

96. I wonder how the RW felt when Ray-Gun received his KBE?

As for the Queen thinking she was ordered by God, thats not the modern monarchy in the UK. Although she is the technical head of "The Church of England" it's just another title.
As for the Queen herself. I give her mad props. This is a woman who learned in WWII to rebuild Army Vehicles from the ground up, and not in the safety of Buckingham Palace but out on the field. Amongst many, many other things she has done through out her life.

She deserves more respect than most Presidents over the last 100 years.

cheers
Sandy
(puts flame-retardant suit on)

[AngryAmish]

33. What the fuck is wrong with him and all you people who think this is a good thing?

I can give him a break because of his age and infirmity

BUT

This is profoundly unamerican. Royalty is the bane of mankind. Imagine...he is taking a honor which requires him to kneel before a person who thinks God selected her to run an Empire. Not through hard work, not through persuasion of her fellow citizens, but God selected her through the mere fact of her birth. She does not have fellow citizens, she has subjects. Hundreds of millions of them throughout the earth.

Royalty of all sorts is disgusting.

Remember, we fought a war then came up with a Constitution to prevent this sort of thing.

[AngryAmish]

35. Article I, Sec. 9

"No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state."

I don't think this applies directly (I don't think a knighthood is a title of nobility) but it is damn close enough.

Sickening.

Plus he is Irish (or at least is supposed to be). I'll be damned if I will ever bow and scrape befoee the f'n Queen of England. He should have more pride.

[smoogatz]

36. Oh, for Christ's sake.

The guy's dying. Rip him a new one!

[Towlie]

41. There are quite a few highly respected Englishmen who have refused knighthood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_declined_a_British_honour">The list includes famous scientists, poets, musicians, authors, artists, actors, and composers. Perhaps knighthood isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[smoogatz]

45. So?

It's up to you to tell Ted freaking Kennedy whether he wants to be a knight?

[LanternWaste]

64. On the other hand, not only did John Lennon accept the honor, he defended it... eom

On the other hand, not only did John Lennon accept the honor, he defended it...

[Mad_Dem_X]

37. Please see Response #29.

It is *not* a title of nobility.

[byeya]

40. Ted to join Casper Weinberger and other wingnuts to

accept a title from a parasite on society? Also, Ted's Irish:I be surprised if an Irish-American would recognize the reactionary queen of a country that invaded and occupied Ireland.
Screw the royal family and their billions of dollars{pounds} of money that could - should - be used to benefit the people.

[TayTay]

43. I actually don't like this either

Our New England and Massachusetts ancestors fought a war to get away from inherited titles and such. I understand this is an honorary thing and does not mean that Uncle Ted gets a title, but couldn't they have honored his work in some other way?

I love Teddy K very much and have voted for him each time his name has been before me on a ballot, but I don't like this at all. It doesn't set well and smacks of elitism. If I were Teddy K I would thank the Queen for the sentiment but refuse the knight stuff. It's not very American and certainly out of line with Massachusetts sentiments.

[LanternWaste]

63. As Sen. Kennedy is not giving the honor...

As Sen. Kennedy is not giving the honor, and as I imagine this is happening with the consent of congress, what precise and relevant rule of order and/or process is being denied, or at least denied "damn close enough"?

[No Elephants]

128. Read the thread. Three people posted that already. A purely honorary title does not violate the

Constitution of the United States, for pity sakes, any more than a University violates its charter or any standard of academia when it gives an honorary doctorate at a commencement

[notesdev]

39. I thought I was the only one

to recognize how much damage the evolving US aristocracy has become.

[Nye Bevan]

47. Recipients of Honorary Knighthoods do *not* have to kneel (nt)

[LynnTheDem]

48. What the fuck is wrong with people who can't bother to get their facts straight?

Edit cos why bother.

[Pacifist Patriot]

88. This is a rather maddening thread, isn't it?

Depressing actually. I would have thought progressives in favor of self-enlightenment. I suppose I shouldn't make such generalizations, eh?

[LynnTheDem]

89. Isn't it though.

I tend to make such generalizations myself, and am always shocked when this kinda thing happens.

We're supposed to be so much better than this...or at least good enough to read the damn OP's article first before commenting!

ARRRGH!

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. You don't kneel for honorary knighthoods

In a brief private ceremony in his office at MacDill Air Force Base here, Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf today became the ninth American military officer to receive an honorary knighthood from a King or Queen of England.

Because he is not a British subject, General Schwarzkopf did not have to kneel and be tapped on the shoulder by Queen Elizabeth II when he was knighted. The Queen simply handed him a box containing the cross and silver star of the Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath, British Embassy officials said. The ceremony was closed to the news media and public.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CEEDF143FF932A15756C0A967958260

You don't even have to receive it from the Queen:

Knighthood for Bono

The Irish rock star Bono, below, became a knight of the British Empire yesterday, The Associated Press reported. ''You have permission to call me anything you want -- except sir, all right?'' he said after the lighthearted ceremony in Dublin at the home of the British ambassador, David Reddaway. ''Lord of lords, your demigodness, that'll do.'' Mr. Reddaway paid tribute to Bono's work as a campaigner against poverty and disease in Africa after asking if he was disappointed that becoming a knight no longer involves a sword or kneeling. ''Please,'' said Bono, his hand on the ambassador's shoulder, ''I wasn't expecting you to kneel.'' Bono, 46, the U2 frontman whose real name is Paul Hewson, was designated a Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire. He was accompanied by his wife, Ali, and their four children: Jordan, 17; Eve, 15; Elijah, 7; and John, 5, as well as the guitarist the Edge and the bassist Adam Clayton, his band mates. The Dublin-born Bono, who will not be entitled to use the title Sir because he is not a citizen of Britain or of a country in the Commonwealth of former British colonies, dismissed criticism from some Irish nationalists for accepting a British honor. ''I think Britain is great,'' he said. ''And Irish people support British football teams. And Irish bands sign British record labels. And Irish people speak English.''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9505E2D91030F933A05750C0A9619C8B63

[No Elephants]

129. How dare you try to spoil over the top rants with simple facts?

[ReliantJ]

77. +2

[BreweryYardRat]

84. This isn't King George III or Queen Victoria here.

Somehow, I don't think Elizabeth II is under the impression that she's anything other than a figurehead -- an office preserved as more of a diplomatic position than anything else. Parliament has the power in Britain, not her.

[axollot]

98. Exactly! And the "Empire" has been gone for a long time now! n/t

[LeftishBrit]

107. Exactly!

Someone once described the monarch as 'nowadays a highly-paid model for a postage stamp'.

[Pacifist Patriot]

112. LOL! Those of us who think this is not worthy of righteous indignation...

apparently understand it better than you do.

Kennedy is not required to kneel before the Queen in order to accept this honor. He does not even have to be in her presence. Acceptance of an honor to recognize his contribution to US-UK relations and participation in the peace process in Northern Ireland does not make him in any way beholden to the Royal family. Nor does it constitute affirmation of monarchy being some sort of superior form of sovreignty.

In case you slept through history class and/or failed to take British Government, you might be startled to learn the Queen and her family don't actually rule a single individual. She's a ceremonial figurehead.

Now if you want to get into an argument about strong centralized government, the Prime Minister over there has power our president can only salivate over. I cannot help but wonder if Brown chose to give Kennedy an honor not specifically associated with the royal family, if you wouldn't be perfectly fine with that.

Oh, and while we're at it, I hardly think the queen herself is the one who unilaterally decides whom the UK choses to honor with this award.

News flash. We're the only country with our form of government, our traditions and our ceremonies. Other countries have different ways of doing things. Perhaps a little tolerance and acceptance could be called for here, eh?

[No Elephants]

127. People curtsy and bow (just barely) to the queen voluntarily, out of tradition. No one

arrests them or beheads them if they choose not to. And the OBE was established in 1917. It had absolutely nothing to do with why we fought the revolution. The monarchy today is mostly to bring in tourists. Let's operate (a) in reality and (b)in this century.

[OneBlueSky]

38. I don't know . . . won't he look kinda silly in chain mail and a codpiece . . .

at his age? . . . and is he really up to toting around a broadsword and shield? . . . :shrug:

seriously, though . . . congrats to the good senator . . . a well deserved honor for a lifetime of service to his nation . . .

[Brimon]

44. byeya

Typical Republican (Irish) propaganda. I take it you have the same opinion of the hundreds of billions the far bigger organisation, that is the Catholic church, hoards in it's coffers.

Your opinion is that he shouldn't accept it, mine is that he should not have been offered it in the first place.

[No Elephants]

131. You seem to be taking the British point of view, but your beef as to the OBE is with

the Queen, not with Senator Kennedy. Perhaps you should write her as I doubt she follows posts on DU.

[kskiska]

42. Rudy Giuliani was knighted, too

Giuliani receives honorary knighthood

The former mayor of New York, Rudolph Giuliani, has received an honorary knighthood from the Queen for the role he played in the wake of the 11 September attacks.

Mr Giuliani arrived at the Palace flanked by former New York police commissioner Bernard Kerik and former New York fire commissioner Thomas von Essen, who also received honorary CBEs.

As he emerged from the ceremony, Mr Giuliani stressed that he had received the honour not for himself but for the people of New York who battled through the "worst attack ever" on their country.

(snip)

Mr Giuliani, who did not rule out running for president of the United States at some time in the future, will not be allowed to style himself "Sir Rudolph" as he is not a British citizen but can use the letters KBE after his name.

more…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/1817333.stm

[Pacifist Patriot]

100. and Wes Clark and Norman Schwarzkopf and Ronald Reagan and John Warner....

I really am surprised to see people wrapped around the axel over a foreign head of state honoring an American for his contribution to the peace process in Northern Ireland. It is unfortunate that particular nation's manner of honor offends the anti-monarchical among us, but shouldn't we be rejoicing that a) a democrat has been singled out for the honor and b) it involves efforts to promote peace?

[No Elephants]

130. There. That proves how totally meaningless it is.

[Crowman1979]

46. Even though I admire ole' Ted, I'm quite pissed off about this!

Being part Irish myself I would have told the Queen to take that knighthood and shove it up her ass. That's just my opinion.

[Brimon]

49. Crowman1979

Please remember that there are "Irish" who are loyal to the crown.Try not to generalise not all Irish people are anti-monarchy.

[jb5150]

50. In crowman's defense (not that he needs it)

he did say it was just his opinion....:-)

[Crowman1979]

75. That and Keith Richards, although it is probably not that he's Irish...

...it's just that he hates the Royalty and is sticking up for his pirate ancestors. j/k But he did say something similar to that in a Guitar World Interview.

[No Elephants]

133. Even if he felt that way, do you think that a responsible Senator of the United States should do

that? That's about like thumbing his nose at England. That is not doing the U.S. and its citizens any favors. And, as a Senator of the United States, his first concern has to be the best interests of the United States and Americans, not of Ireland or the Irish. As to the Irish, I would think that they, too, would be grateful for his peacemaking efforts, instead of getting their panties in a bunch over something relatively meaningless.

[goforit]

51. The Queen and her monarchy sucks! We broke away from England a long time ago.

[goforit]

52. .......And I consider it committing Treason!!!

[Brimon]

59. The Queen and her monarchy sucks! ????

Did she fly over and piss in your conflakes or something???

[Romulox]

67. Our country fought a war to end monarchy in the US.

:hi:

[goforit]

72. He will be labeled a "RED COAT" now!!!

Our Forefathers would be rolling in their grave knowing Teddy was being Knighted!!!!

She does not rule the world!!!!!!

[Romulox]

79. And you will be labeled: "Boxes with shadows"! nt

[bikebloke]

56. Hey, if Teddy gets one...

...I want one too. Now I have to ring the Palace, damnit.

[LanternWaste]

58. What a wonderful Honorific given to the good Senator...

What a wonderful Honorific given to the good Senator... aptly illustrating the continued goodwill between our two countries and a wonderful show of respect to the good Senator, yet still devoid of any monarchical or royal trappings that the Freepers will go apoplectic over ("we're a Democracy dammit! No royalty for us! No titles for us!" 'Abloish' the monarchy through teabagging...." :rofl: )

[TechBear_Seattle]

60. Wikipedia is our friend

The Most Excellent Order of the British Empire is a British order of chivalry established on 4 June 1917 by King George V. The Order includes five classes in civil and military divisions; in decreasing order of seniority, these are:

* Knight Grand Cross (GBE) or Dame Grand Cross (GBE)
* Knight Commander (KBE) or Dame Commander (DBE)
* Commander (CBE)
* Officer (OBE)
* Member (MBE)

Only the two highest ranks entail admission into knighthood, an honour allowing the recipient to use the title "Sir" (male) or "Dame" (female) before their first name. Honorary knighthoods, given to individuals who are not nationals of a realm where Queen Elizabeth II is Head of State, permit usage of the honour as a post-nominal but not as a title before their name. These recipients are classified as honorary members of the Order they receive, and do not contribute to the numbers restricted to that Order as full members do.

Order of the British Empire

The article does not mention which rank will be bestowed, but it is extremely unlikely to be Knight Commander or Knight Grand Cross; the number of people to hold these ranks is limited by Act of Parliament and I do not believe there are any current openings. Most likely, he will be given a rank as Member or, at the most, Officer.

None of the Order's ranks come with aristocratic priviledge or perogative; knighthood does not make one a Peer of the Realm. As such, accepting an honorary knighthood would not require the approval of Congress. It would be different if the Queen and Parliament wanted to make Kennedy the Baron of Somesuch, but that is not the case here.

[muriel_volestrangler]

69. It's a KBE

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5842904.ece

Only the KBE and GBE (which is very rare) levels are called 'knighthoods' - the others are just 'honours'. And, as your Wikipedia excerpt says, honorary ones don't count towards any limit in a category.

[TechBear_Seattle]

70. Got it, thanks n/t

[dipsydoodle]

73. I recall being told

that the honorary ones were acromyns for Other Buggers Effort and My Bloody Effort.

[lovuian]

71. if I was Ted I would refuse it because it taints him

it puts him in the line of the New World Order and notice she gives it to him reluctantly the closer he gets sicker and sicker

I love Ted and am not proud of this Knighting

[Xenotime]

76. Awesome! Way to go!

[Algorem]

78. he threw the queen a pity fuck in 1942

[Pacifist Patriot]

85. Anyone who thinks this honor elevates Kennedy to the peerage needs to do some reading.

This award does not put him into either the nobility or the royalty in Great Britain. For heaven's sakes people. Learn a little something before you get yourself in a twist. I can sympathize with those who think he should decline for other reasons, but not because this would somehow turn him into a British Lord. Oi!

[Romulox]

90. I think it's a mistake (based in self-flattery) to assume everyone who disagrees with you

is misinformed.

Does it occur to you that the minutiae of British nobility aren't the operative facts here?

"somehow turn him into a British Lord."

A quick scan of this thread shows that you are the only one suggesting such an argument. :hi:

[muriel_volestrangler]

93. You yourself called it "a rank of nobility"

when it's not. It's not even a title, strictly, since he won't be called 'Sir Edward' - it's an honorary knighthood, so it's an honour, and he will be referred to, in formal terms, in Britain as "Senator Edward Kennedy, KBE", if he wishes. If a university gave him an honorary doctorate (and I'd guess some universities have) then that too would give him a suffix to use, if he wanted, such as 'LL.D.'.

Your referring to it as 'nobility' means you claim he's becoming a lord.

[Pacifist Patriot]

97. But see now, you're just arguing against an "opinion."

So what you have to say doesn't count. Honestly, this ranks (no pun intended) among the lowest quality of debate I have seen around here in the longest time.

Foreign government wishes to honor American politician for his participation in a peace process. Fight ensues. Oh the irony!

[Romulox]

103. What nonsense. You want to turn this into an discussion of the fine grades of rank of nobility

(No one else is interested in this debate, so you are pursuing it in multiple strands, and largely arguing against your own made up positions!)

[Romulox]

102. "Nobility" does not mean "he's becoming a lord"

"Your referring to it as 'nobility' means you claim he's becoming a lord. "

I don't know where you're getting this from, but it's obviously incorrect. For example, the Queen herself is a member of the British Nobility.

[muriel_volestrangler]

105. And the Queen has titles like the Duke of Lancaster

and that's something she inherited, and will pass on to her heir.

For instance, here's the Daily Telegraph's guide to what you're expected to call people - "Nobility, baronets, knightage" - note those are 3 separate categories:

Titles of nobility are, in descending order: duke, marquess (not marquis except for foreign titles and a few ancient Scottish titles), earl, viscount and baron.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1435299/Nobility-baronets-knightage.html

You're just wrong on this. A knighthood does not make anyone part of the 'nobility'. I don't expect you to know this - you're not British, after all, and it's really a bit of trivia - but if you're worried about what Senator Kennedy is accepting, then you ought to realise it's an honour. He is not joining the nobility.

[Pacifist Patriot]

110. Don't bother. He's made up his mind and nothing silly like facts or...

semantic precision to get in his way. He blew it in a post and instead of admitting the mistake has decided bluster will see him through.

[Romulox]

113. She also has titles like "Queen"...

Again, this debate has not a whit to do with how many angels could dance on the duke of lancaster. In other words, nobody cares about the minutiae of British nobility, nor do I consider the study of same to be a worthwhile endeavor.

Instead, it's a more basic issue: is it appropriate for a representative of our democracy, and one whose family has only recently been implicated into a controversy surrounding his family's political dynasty, to recieve a title which has its origins in the feudal system and primogeniture from a foreign potentate?

You can answer this question "yes", and I won't fault you for it. However, it is really quite horrible the way the other couple of posters are insisting that anyone who answers the same question "no" must have based his answer on some horrible personal inadequacy on one hand, or, on the other hand, needs an education in the various titles originating the feudal system which a foreign monarch may dispense.

In other words, it is a form of self-flattery to assume that any disagreement with your position is rooted in ignorance, and an argument about the proper characterization of the "knighthood" misses the point!

[Pacifist Patriot]

118. Here is where you are losing your point....

"to recieve a title which has..."

Edward Kennedy is not receiving a title. He is not entitled to be addressed as anything because he is being given an honorary award. That's all it is. Recognition of his accomplishments. I think you are hung up on the name of the honor without truly appreciating that it doesn't carry with it the feudalistic baggage you detest.

If you do not approve of him receiving the award because:

a) You feel he does not deserve it.
b) You feel foreign governments should not honor citizens of other countries.
c) You think the award is bogus and carries with it no real recognition of his accomplishments.
d) You hate the name of the award and it's feudalistic monarchical background rubs you the wrong way.

or what have you, than those are valid opinions to hold.

If you do not approve of him receiving the award because you feel an American politician should not receive a "title of nobility" (your words), than you are basing your opinion on an erroneous fact as he is not receiving a title of nobility.

Truly, it does seem as if your antipathy towards monarchy, even a ceremonial one with no real power, has clouded your ability to reason. No one here gives a flip about your opinion that Kennedy should not receive the award. To each his own. The gripe is you clinging to an erroneous fact as being the basis for that opinion. Can you not see that?

[Romulox]

135. You are focusing on one phrase to disguise the true source of our disagreement.

It's silly.

"Truly, it does seem as if your antipathy towards monarchy, even a ceremonial one with no real power, has clouded your ability to reason."

Give me a break. I have a right to hold an antipathy to monarchy, not the least of which because my family came to this country to avoid it.

"No one here gives a flip about your opinion that Kennedy should not receive the award."

Do you expect that anyone "gives a flip" about your opinion that he should? :silly:

[Pacifist Patriot]

137. I'm not sure what the true source of our disagreement is then.

I am not in favor of monarchy as a form of government and would like to see it abolished in the UK. I just don't seem to detest it with the same vehemence you do. Where did you get the impression I was a monarchist?

No, I actually do not expect that my opinion over whether he receives the award or not would make much difference to anyone. Why should it?

[Romulox]

144. I don't think it's appropriate for Teddy to accept knighthood.

:hi:

[muriel_volestrangler]

132. 'Yes', because "has its origins in ..." does not describe its present status

Yes, the concept of a knighthood dates from a time when it indicated a man who fought in the service of another, and was pledging loyalty to them while they recognised his worth. The Magna Carta has its origins in the same feudal system, but would that mean you don't think any of it is worth thinking about?

But now, it is an honour, given by the British state (and some other states), for merit - it is given for charitable work, excellence in sports and the arts, achievement in business, as well ask work for the state, such as civil servants, judges and the senior military. Honorary knighthoods go to citizens of other countries who have done significant political or charitable work associated with the UK.

If you think that any honour from the UK (or any foreign country?) must be turned down, then say so. Senator Kennedy, however, has enough of an international outlook to think it's OK; and the Presidential Medal of Freedom, as revived by his brother, is sometimes awarded to non-US citizens, so it's generally accepted that giving honours to people outside your country is OK.

The thing is, it was you who wanted to claim this was something to do with the nobility, so we had to set you straight on that.

[Romulox]

136. Your argument relies on you controlling the terms of debate; that's how you can tell it's weak

"If you think that any honour from the UK (or any foreign country?) must be turned down, then say so."

Nope. I think knighthood (not "any honour") should be turned down, and I haven't been shy about saying so!

"The thing is, it was you who wanted to claim this was something to do with the nobility, so we had to set you straight on that. "

Of course it has something to do with nobility. It is ludicrous to claim it does not. :hi:

[muriel_volestrangler]

139. I'm using the standard meanings (as are others), you are using your own

and that's why you're not convincing anyone. It seems you have your own definition of 'nobility', for instance.

If you're going to insist on your own definitions, then this discussion is pointless.

[Pacifist Patriot]

141. Pointless but highly amusing

I could be scrubbing toilets right now, but somehow I'm finding this a bit more entertaining.

I think it's cool an individual is being recognized for his participation in the effort to promote peace. Therefore I find it a bit of a stretch to get my American born and bred hackles up over the name of the award. I suppose they could revoke my DAR membership for not being incensed by this turn of events (how dare you cheeky bastards recognize one of our rebels as a man of honor!), but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Cheers.

[Pacifist Patriot]

140. *snort* and you aren't trying to control the terms of the debate?

Senator Kennedy is NOT going to be a knight. You honestly and truly do not understand that this award in no way makes Senator Kennedy a "knight." He will have been awarded an honor entitled the Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire. It doesn't mean he will command anything either. He will never be required to show obedience or deference to the royal family. He doesn't have to kneel, he doesn't have to walk backwards, heck, he doesn't even have to accept it in person.

The KBE is simply a part of the British honours system which is a means of rewarding individuals' personal bravery, achievement, or service to the United Kingdom. The system consists of three types of award: honours, decorations and medals.

Knighthood in the feudal sense carries with it obligations and responsibilities. Senator Kennedy will have none as a recipient of a KBE. Would you feel better if the award was simply named something else? Because if it was the "UK Thank You Lots Medal" it would have the exact same obligations and responsibilities heaped upon Kennedy. i.e. NONE

I get that you find it distasteful and unseemly for a senator to accept an award with this name, but would you please please stop insisting he will receive a title of nobility or be a knight because it simply is not true.

[LanternWaste]

142. 'gentleman' must have something to do with land ownership and ranking above a Yeoman....

"Of course it has something to do with nobility. It is ludicrous to claim it does not."

Then I imagine to maintain intellectual consistency, one would also be compelled to argue that the contemporary usage of 'gentleman' must have something to do with land ownership, in addition to a status equal to or greater than that of a yeoman.

[Romulox]

143. "gentleman" isn't a title handed out by a heriditary monarch, so the analogy is inapt.

[Pacifist Patriot]

145. Ooo, this is another one we can have fun with.

Gentleman comes from Old English and literally means "noble man." I would say the analogy isn't too bad, especially if classism is a sticking point for someone.

In Great Britain, the term gentleman is applied in a limited sense to those having coats of arms, but who are without a title, and, in this sense, gentlemen hold a middle rank between the nobility and yeomanry. In a more extended sense, it includes every man above the rank of yeoman, comprehending the nobility.

So perhaps it is un-PC to call someone a gentleman. ;-)

[Romulox]

147. I think you need to step away from this. This is beginning to become a masturbatory ego fix for you

rather than a discussion. :hi:

[Pacifist Patriot]

148. LOL! You can't tell when someone is having fun with you?

Our conversation ceased to be anything close to a productive discussion and became sheer entertainment quite awhile ago. Honestly, can't we both agree this is much better than scrubbing toilets? :evilgrin:

[LanternWaste]

149. In many instances, yes-- it still is. As is Esquire, et.al. n/t

In many instances, yes-- it still is. As is Esquire, et.al.



Edit to include source citation: Source, Peter Coss, The Origins of the English Gentry

[Pacifist Patriot]

94. Nope, I'm not addressing this to everyone. That's why I said, "anyone"

And yes, there have been claims that this is exactly what people think. Read the thread for yourself. In fact, you might want to peruse your own posts again.

[Romulox]

101. Yes, but *you* are the only "anyone" making such an argument on this thread!

:hi:

[Pacifist Patriot]

109. Never worthwhile carrying on a discussion with someone who refuses to..

use a common language the same way. Thank you all the same, but it is rather apparent who is being deliberately obtuse with a healthy dose of tunnel vision. Carry on if you must, but backpedaling and false side arguments won't do you any favors. The thread, and your contributions to it, reads perfectly transparent to anyone with a decent command of written English. Cheers.

[Nihil]

111. Don't worry, you were clear enough.

The poster in question has a habit of behaving like that.
:shrug:

[Romulox]

114. One wonders if there is EVER a point where a disagreement with you is not based in woeful inadequacy

:shrug:

:rofl:

[Pacifist Patriot]

117. Just when someone clings to a blatantly wrong fact and defends it as opinion.

I've admitted I've been wrong plenty of times around DU. You should try it sometime. Wonderfully liberating to let go of ignorance when it's been pointed out to you. You blew a fact and you were called on it. It's really not much more complicated than that.

Odd how you have focused on this one disagreement between us to potentially characterize every disagreement I've ever had. I don't recall asserting you make a habit of the poor discussion skills you've exhibited within this thread.

Cheers.

[Romulox]

134. My opinion stands, notwithstanding the trivia regarding the fine gradations of nobility.

It is a bizarre world-view that does not allow for a disagreement on whether it is seemly or not for a sitting Senator to accept knighthood; I feel it is not.

[Pacifist Patriot]

138. You are an amusing sparring partner, I'll give you that.

[47of74]

104. I love it

Especially since having Edward Kennedy, KBE will really stick in some righty craw!

[Darth_Kitten]

116. What? Given from a Queen whose ancestors denied both catholics/the irish basic rights?

:shrug:

[Pacifist Patriot]

146. And we all know how American it is to punish someone for the sins of the father.

;)

[Darth_Kitten]

151. Not really, especially when the kiddies are continuing the sinning

;)