Radical Ore. bill would ban pit bulls from state

[Mrs. Overall]

Source: KOMO News

PORTLAND, Ore. - A new bill on pit bulls that hasn't even hit the Oregon Senate floor yet is already getting a lot of heat from folks on both side of the issue.

Under a bill from Sen. Bruce Starr's office, owning a pit bull would be illegal in Oregon and the state would punish those who own one by euthanizing the dog, slapping the owner with thousands of dollars in fines and perhaps even throwing them in jail.

And if your pit bull killed someone? Then you could be fined $125,000, spend five years in jail or both.

Those who already own a pit bull would be grandfathered in, so to speak. They would have to obtain a permit to keep the pit bull (for a fee) and provide a certificate from a veterinarian showing that the dog had been sterilized.



Read more: http://www.komonews.com/news/40476252.html

[DesertFlower]

1. since watching the dog whisperer

and "Dogtown" i have a completely different feeling about pit bulls.

[madrchsod]

7. yup---one has to train the owners not the dogs

[KurtNYC]

79. and would I be wrong if I guessed that that feeling was that they should

only be owned by professionals who have facilities with 20-foot fences or are in the middle of the desert?

Pit Bulls are selectively bred to fight (and the breeding works). The world will get along just fine without pit bulls.

[Jennicut]

114. Absolutely. Cesar has taught me that its the owners that make pitbulls

violent. The breed itself is quite capable of being wonderful dogs.

[Cleita]

2. That's really loony. My neighbor has a pit bull named Peaches and she

is a peach, a really nice and friendly dog. I think the $125,000 fine for anyone who has raised a dog that kills would be more appropriate, but the rest of the bill stinks.

[acmavm]

3. Two of the best trained and gentlest dogs I've ever seen were pits. But

they were both females.

Does this have anything to do with why there were so fun loving and good natured?

My brother John had a male. One mean son of a gun. Bit a mail carrier. Of course that woman walked into the house to put mail on the floor because the inside door was open (and that was really stupid, she knew about the dog).

[DesertFlower]

8. my nail tech had 2 chows --

one female and one male. the male attacked her daughter and almost killed her. went right for her throat. her brother pulled the dog off. he bit right through her nose. a plastic surgeon had to put it back together. she had been advised to have the dog neutered but her husband couldn't bear to do that to the dog. the dog was put down.

[acmavm]

15. Yeah, I had a friend who had two chows, Bogey and Bacall (cutesy, huh?)

The were mean mean mean. I think they're way worse than pits.

There was a pack of wild dogs that used to run around where I used to live and I swear to God, the leader was a chow. The rest of the dogs must have been terrified because the followed in a pack right behind their red furry leader. They had everyone terrified (this was in Carter Lake, Iowa not Omaha). I think eventually they had to hunt them down a do away with 'em.

[DesertFlower]

20. the owner said they

had a "mean streak". she was afraid of them. don't know why she had them with 3 kids.

[awoke_in_2003]

33. The only time I was ever bitten

was by my sister's chow.

[KamaAina]

43. Chows are one of the top three or so breeds most likely to bite you

Poodles are right up there, too.

Pit bulls (properly, Staffordshire bull terriers) aren't.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lucky Luciano]

6. "the vast majority of pitbull owners are horrible people"

You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

[Mrs. Overall]

9. Are you being sarcastic or serious?

[keepCAblue]

11. One of the most ignorant posts I've seen here on DU.

There are thousands of respectable, responsible pit bull guardians. Talk about a gross and wholly ignorant stereotyping.

[Mrs. Overall]

13. bc3000 was the Stone Age, you know.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

26. Wow! As stiff as the competition for that title is,

that deleted post must have been a real humdinger.

[depakid]

5. Hardly "radical" -though of course that would be the corporate media's reaction

Fact is that the Portland metropolitan area has had a huge spate of pitbull attacks and other incidents requiring law enforcement interventions this past year- and going back many years.

Britain has banned the breed for 20 years or so. New South Wales (along with other Aistralian states) placed major restrictions on the breed in the mid 00's -as a result of one too many maulings and deaths.

Far from being "radical" -that's what sensible people and governments do when there's a serious problem. Craft a solution.

And curiously enough- this proposal looks very similar to New South Wales' laws- perhaps Bruce (a Republican) has actually looked at what other places have done?

[iamjoy]

30. Craft A Solution

Well, why not ban SUVs? I mean, we can't ban all cars but why not ban the ones that are more likely to cause a fatality? SUVs are much heavier than regular cars, and can do a lot more damage.

Of course, I'm being ridiculous. I'm not sure banning the breed is a good idea, but I understand why some would want it. I think if they are going to go ahead with this, it should have a sunset clause.

[depakid]

45. Why not look to other people who've crafted solutions?

that work -and follow the lead?

[Chulanowa]

96. Okay. Define "pit bull"

Please. I would really like to know what makes a pit bull a pit bull, and what makes similar breds different, and what the degree of separation is between them all. How pure does the breed have to be to count? Does it apply to other gods such as golden retrievers, poodles, and schipperkes that have all been labeled "pit bulls" when htey attack someone?

[bitchkitty]

113. As I understand it, they are American Pit Bull Terriers.

There are several varieties - bluenose, rednose, brindle - really every color. My beagle is in lust (or would be if he had balls) with Jewel, a female pit at his playcare.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Abq_Sarah]

126. I was walking my Boston Terrier

On leash a couple of years ago and was screamed at by some woman who demanded that I remove my "dangerous dog" from the street.

You just can't argue with pure ignorance.

[Chulanowa]

129. Well...

Having had my hand gnawed open by a Boston terrier and having had nothing but negative experience with the inbred little freaks... I have to say yeah, that chick is pretty dumb.

It's funny, really... I've been through about thirty "pit bull type" dogs - I've done some rescue, a fair amount of dogsitting, and owned two of my own. And know what I've been attacked by, and seen others attacked by?

An afghan Hount tore up a friend of mine's face
A Doberman Pinscer opened my left nostril, requiring plastic surgery
My little sister was also attacked by a doberman, cutting up her arm ratehr nicely
Said boston terrier thought my hand was tasty
A standard poodle tore up my half-brother's butt
A cocker spaniel bit off a cousin's pinky finger
I spent an hour in the woods being herded around by an akita. Didn't hurt me but scared the shit out of me
No shortage of bumps, bruises, scrapes, and nips from a large number of husky-types. One very large one lunged for my face, and I felt bad when I coldcocked it.

Never even seen a note of aggression from a bull type. Except a teething puppy who found my ear, I suppose.

[Abq_Sarah]

130. I've had

Either bulldogs or bulldog breeds my entire life. Not one has ever attacked me or anyone else. I'm also very careful with them and would never put them in a position where an aggressive response might be warranted. People who tote their dogs around like accessories are just asking for problems. It's very common to see people walking their dogs on paved roads and sidewalks here in the summer without ever giving a thought to what that is doing to the dog.

[bitchkitty]

137. That dogo was a gorgeous animal.

I'm sure they have aggressiveness bred into them too.

But we're talking about pit bulls - which I understand are the ones who will be banned/euthanized. It's the stupidest proposal in the world because I've seen with my own eyes what a properly trained pit bull can be, and how much a "bad" dog can be socialized by someone who knows how to treat abused animals. What are they going to do - give DNA tests to every dog? Oregon can be silly, sorry. I live here and am glad it's on the continent, but this is some waste of the taxpayers' money and time.

Kill Petey?

Why not introduce a bill to go after dog fighting AGGRESSIVELY, or a bill that mandates early training of owner and dog.

The idea of trying to wipe out an entire breed makes me sick to my stomach. How about locking up the people who create the pit bulls that go on the attack?

[Chulanowa]

141. Breed bans are moronic, because there is no such thing as "breed"

Odds are, if your pit bull actually has papers that say "this is a pit bull" it's temperament is perfectly fine anyway.

This is just another case of Politicians trying to politicize science. "I don't understand it, but by gum I'll pass a law about it!"

[B3Nut]

142. We have a rescue Dogo

possibly a mix, but likely the real deal. He's a foundling. Someone at some point had crudely hacked off half his tail, had a short ear crop done, and partially amputated part of his right front leg for no discernable reason. We suspect he was stolen and then used as a dogfighting bait dog. My wife (the vet tech) was alerted to the dog by the animal control officer who found him loose. After the stray hold, she went and got him. We named him Vinnie. Despite the horrors this animal obviously suffered, he is a gregarious and cuddly animal, albeit quite clingy. The rescue raised several hundred dollars to outfit Vinnie with a prosthetic leg, which we call his "stump-extender." :D We're still trying to get him to use it...he's been without the use of that leg for so long he needs to re-learn how to use it all over again.


Vinnie, before coming home


Vinnie, in his favorite spot...keeping the sofa from running away...

He has since been permanently added to our herd. :)

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[bitchkitty]

145. I don't know you or your politics,

but I love you! That's a handsome fellow you've got there! How is he with other dogs?

[B3Nut]

146. He's good off-leash, given a controlled introduction

he's more reactive on-leash, judging from the type of reaction he exhibits he's uncomfortable meeting other dogs if tethered. He gets on famously with our other dogs, and they seem to like him a lot. Once he gets to know another dog (and the other dog likes him) he's fine, and loves to romp noisily. He loves meeting people, and is quite a ham at events. My wife even brought him to my workplace and we paraded him around the office. We have to do a repeat visit now that he has his "stump-extender." :D We figure he originally belonged to a good home, and got loose or stolen. He's safe now. :)

Thanks for the love, back atcha! :beer:

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[Abq_Sarah]

123. So you ban pit bulls

And the population decreases. Then another breed will be at the forefront of attacks. Do you ban them as well? Keep going till there are no more dogs?

[Chulanowa]

131. Have you ever noticed...

That whatever TV says is the "toughest" dog is always the one that ends up topping hte attacks for that period? German shepherds, Doberman pinsers, rottweillers, pit bulls, even jack russel terriers have all been "the most dangerous breed" in their time.

Funny how all these breeds are at least 200 years old, but they didn't become big scary motherfuckers until about 1975, huh?

[Gore1FL]

10. They should just ban idiots from ownig pit bulls

Every incident I have heard of Pit Bull violence has been because the owner mishandled the dog.

[depakid]

12. Not in the Oregon cases

These have as often as not resulted simply from the dog(s) having somehow gotten out -whereupon they wreaked havoc in their neighborhoods.

The propensity to behave aggressively -to attack other animals and humans under certain circumstances is in their nature.

[Lucky Luciano]

16. You also don't know what you are talking about.

Pit Bulls are very intelligent animals that want nothing more than to please their owners. The troubles occur when they have owners who want them to fight...so pleasing the owners is about fighting. If a pit has a good owner, it will be a good dotg. As I said above, there will be hell to pay for any asshole that attempts to take away my dog. HELL TO PAY!! Imagine someone taking away your child - something like that.

[depakid]

44. Nah- I just look at facts broadly on the record

and consider how public policy might solve problems.

[awoke_in_2003]

23. They should ban...

idiots from having any pets, and children.

[Robb]

31. I vote we ban idiots.

Heck. :D

[WheelWalker]

40. ;

[Lucky Luciano]

14. SO incredibly stupid. Pit bulls are wopnderful dogs and

I will defend them forever. Anyone who tries to take away my dog will be punished mercilessly.

[B3Nut]

55. Pits are some of the *worst* bed hogs

I recognize that middle-of-the-bed sprawl all too well... :D My 80# male Deuce loves to "burrow" under the covers, he has to get between me and my wife and be snuggled up to one of us, usually me.

What a lovely pibble you have!

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[Lucky Luciano]

57. You are 10000% right! Holy shit - it is not just us then!

My dog - burrows under the covers and is a big time bed hog! - and needs to touch either my girlfriend or me while sleeping to feel secure! Kind of annoying obviously, but I love her! I can run 6 miles in Central Park with her which is awesome. She plays so well with all the dogs when off leash in the dog parks and Central park. She has an awesome hop and gallop that she has patented that melts everyone's heart...and I get stopped everywhere I go with people who want to say hi to my dog! I love having a dog!

[Bryn]

56. Your dog looks so adorable!

One of my neighbors here has one, very sweet. I hate to see this breed get killed off just because of idiots. :(

[Lucky Luciano]

66. Thanks for your support!

I love my doggie! She is such a mush...and she thinks she only weighs 10 pounds and has the right to be a lapdog! I let her sit on me anyway because she is just so damn cute.

Somebody abandoned her in the Bronx and she was found on the roof of an abandoned building there and taken to animal control. She was going to be put down in 2-3 days by the time I got to her. What a shame it would have been to kill this sweetheart!

[Dervill Crow]

99. What a sweet girl you have! nt

[IndianaGreen]

136. Hmmm... yummy!

:P (having a flashback to my straight days)

Nice looking dog there dude.

[boilinmad]

160. Is your dog a pure pit?

It looks like it has alot of labrador in it.

[jannyk]

17. I've changed my mind about Pit Bulls and their derivatives

Used to think there were no 'bad' dogs, only bad owners. Until last October.

My next door neighbor owned one and I used to babysit it frequently. This dog was so gentle and a real 'lover', got plenty of exercise and was so well cared for. It also had a couple of ribbons for obedience courses it had passed.

One evening last Oct, my neighbor was walking the dog, as she did every evening, when it suddenly lunged to attack another dog being walked on the other side of the street. When Pits lunge like that, there is no stopping them - not when you are only 5'2" like my neighbor. This was a dog, that in 5 years had never shown an inkling of aggression, that went to the dog park twice a week to play off leash with all manner of strange mutts, and that I trusted to be alone with my cat. In seconds, for no apparent reason, it turned into a killing machine. Nothing my neighbor, or the other owner could do to stop it until the other dog (a small terrier) was dead. He then turned on my neighbor and savaged her hands/arms before being hit with a piece of wood by yet another neighbor.

The Pit owner needed 60+ stitches and lost most of the use of her left hand. The terrier was torn to pieces and the owner is suing her. The Pit was destroyed that day.

So now I believe that, no matter how gentle, loving and disciplined a Pit may be, and this one was the opitome of a sweet dog, that deep inside each one lurks the 'killer' that they were originally bred to be.

I support the ban.

[awoke_in_2003]

34. I think a lot of the problems...

are breeding practices. For the last 15 years, it has been the "cool" thing to have an overly aggressive pit. A lot are being bred for these tendencies. As time goes by, if things don't change, it will only get worse. The pit of today is not the same dog as Petey on the Little Rascals.

[WriteDown]

48. Great dogs....

If you are a single male living on a farm with no kids. Not a family dog by any means and need an owner experienced with aggressive breeds

[SlicerDicer-]

73. My Miniature Schnauzer got attacked by a pit... it was off leash marauding..

Yeah I support the ban too.. I am tired of by dogs being attacked while I am walking them on leash.

On a side note. My mini is quite the little fireball.. tore that pit up pretty good but wound up with a pretty good gash in its rear hind quarter... The pit was much worse off however. Sorry to hear about the terrier getting killed :/

[Bread and Circus]

95. I hope that owner is ok but I agree w/ the Oregon legislation.

[undeterred]

118. My neighbor's cocker spaniel

bit their 2 year old grandson in the face one day, causing him to need 18 stitches. The dog had to be destroyed.

Another person I know had a great dane who bit their 8 month old baby and had to be destroyed because they could not rehome it after that.

Any dog can bite, even if it has never bitten before. The problem is that everyone thinks their dog is a perfect little angel. But every dog can bite a human or attack another dog.

I am raising a puppy and so far the dogs that have "attacked" him because he was too playful include a labrador, a pointer, a st. bernard mix, and a golden retriever. All "nice" breeds whose owners told me their dog would never hurt a fly.

Having said that, I am wary of pit bulls. I know one who killed and ate his neighbors cat. The pit bull owners who raise their dogs to fight are bad enough, but the ones who are so busy telling you how sweet their dog is are pretty scary too... they seem to think they can overcome the generations of breeding aggressive traits with human kindness. I don't really think that is possible.

Having said that, I don't want a pit bull and I don't want one living near me (like the one who ate his neighbors cat). There is one pit bull mix that my dog plays with but if I don't know the pit bull, it doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from me, like other breeds do.

[dcindian]

18. Here is an interesting link on 2008 dog fatalities.

Seems pretty damning to me.

http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm

2008 statistics

* 23 U.S. fatal dog attacks occurred in 2008. Pit bull type dogs were responsible for 65% (15). Pit bulls make up approximately 2-9% of the U.S. dog population.2
* In 2008, only one U.S. citizen over the age of 3 was killed by a breed other than a pit bull. 74-year old Lorraine May was fatally mauled by her two dogs: an Australian shepherd-mix and a golden retriever-mix.
* 70% of the attacks occurred to children (11 years and under) and 30% occurred to adults (21 years and older). Of the children, half (8) occurred to ages 1 and younger.
* 39% of fatal attacks in 2008 involved multiple dogs; 9% involved chained dogs.
* 78% of the attacks occurred on owner property and 22% off owner property. All off property attacks (5) that resulted in death were attributed to pit bulls.
* 61% of the victims were male; 39% of the victims were female. Of the male victims, over half (8) were 3 years and younger.
* In at least three fatal attacks, a grandmother was watching a child aged 2 and younger. Two of these attacks occurred in Las Vegas; both involved pet pit bulls.

I might not go as far as banning all pit-bulls but I would go as far as having a special license and require training for owners. I would also require a minimum of a 3 million dollar insurance policy to be held by each owner in case of an attack.

[Critters2]

38. Those statistics are pretty amazing. 2-9% of US dogs responsible for 65%

of fatal dog attacks. That's kind of hard to ignore.

[Posteritatis]

92. When the total's 15 in a nation of 300M, I find it quite easy to ignore (nt)

[Chulanowa]

97. Out of a whopping 23 fatal attacks

698 people died from bicycles in 2007 in the United States. Clearly these instruments of death must be immediately banned from our parks and streets before they kill again.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

149. The CDC stats are flawed and you should know better than to believe them

[flvegan]

47. I really wish DUers would stop posting shit that makes us look stupid.

I could cite a couple dozen articles published online that said Bush was the best president ever. News reports and info from third parties is not. fucking. data.

[ronnie624]

62. Your meaning isn't clear.

What, exactly, are you saying?

In recent years, the dogs responsible for the bulk of the homicides are pit bulls and Rottweilers:

"Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF (i.e., dog bite related fatalities) reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996....he data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities." (Sacks JJ, Sinclair L, Gilchrist J, Golab GC, Lockwood R. Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998. JAVMA 2000;217:836-840.)

The Clifton study of attacks from 1982 through 2006 produced similar results. According to Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes were responsible for 65% of the canine homicides that occurred during a period of 24 years in the USA. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.)

<http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html#Thedogsmostlikelytobite>

[flvegan]

69. Do some research into where the Clifton report obtains its "data".

Ask me again if my meaning isn't clear.

[Lucky Luciano]

71. The other thing I wonder about these studies is the fact

that it is fair to assume that no dog under 60 pounds can kill, so the studies should also talk about the pit bull as a percentage of dogs over 60 pounds.

[Runcible Spoon]

76. Wow I thought you were an obnoxious prick on another thread...

but I would like to give you a big ass hug here! :hug:

[Lucky Luciano]

90. errr...thanks I think!

I am disappointed by the haters on this thread...I never knew how many there were. When I walk my pit in the city, I have many people very interested in saying hi - I had thought that people had become more accustomed to the breed and more educated...but sigh....

Which thread was I obnoxious in? I have an idea what the topic might have been given that I have worked as a wall st trader. Other than that I am pretty liberal though! Prop 8 bad, national healthcare good, war in iraq bad, BFEE bad, Dick Cheney worse, etc.

[Runcible Spoon]

93. Some thread a while ago about making your millions and getting out or something

There is a strong populist bend in this forum (and me)..automatic dislike for anyone who benefits greatly from money "fornicating with itself", as 16th C Italians might say.

Anyway, you love your dog and are well-reasoned in the pittbull controversy so I feel no need to discount your worthiness as a person entirely :evilgrin:

[depakid]

75. The real- and ONLY question is whether the conclusions are accurate

And I think that they are. Pit bulls acount for an inordinate number of serious dog maulings- many of which have little to do with the owners.

Despite people's best efforts- dogs get out- and if the breed has a notable propensity for aggression towrd other animals or to people, there's going to end up a tragedy in a certain number of cases.

That's happened so often in Oregon over the past year that many people have finally had enough- just as the people of New South Wales had finally had enough.

Run a google news search for pit bull and see what comes up:

http://news.google.com/news?ned=us&hl=en&q=pit+bulls+

[flvegan]

77. Trying to mirror the Clifton Report's bullshit are we?

You know, Colorado did a recent study amongst vets, animal control, etc. Number one breed involved in dog attacks? Labradors. By a good amount. Yet Denver and a few other cities sought to ban pits anyway.

Dumbfuck logic.

At least this survey also recognized that to get an accurate accounting of breeds more likely to attack :eyes: one would first need to take a dog census. That's not going to happen.

So we're stuck with dumbfuck logic.

[depakid]

80. You can't honestly be making the argument that pit bulls aren't involved in a HIGH percentage

of serious dog maulings compared with the total number of dogs, or that labradors are somehow more dangerous than pit bulls.

Sort of reminds me of the "we need more study" approach to obvious problems.

[flvegan]

81. Show me a dog census.

Pick-and-choose data derived from the media is shit data. Or are you making the argument that we should rely on our media to provide non-sensationalist "news" to obtain our data from?

[depakid]

83. No- I'll show you dozens of serious pit bull attacks

and then encourage the legislature (or local city council) to draft a law to deal with the problem.

Ms ALISON MEGARRITY: My question without notice is addressed to the Premier. What is the Government's response to community concerns about recent attacks by pit bull terriers and related matters?

Mr BOB CARR: We were all horrified by the pictures of five-year old Jordan Wisby lying in hospital with his head bandaged—the victim of a vicious pit bull terrier attack last Friday. He and his brother were walking home from school in Illawong when a dog, which had already been declared dangerous by the Sutherland shire, bolted out of a window and attacked him. The dog has been destroyed and the police are considering laying charges under the Companion Animals Act. Yesterday in another incident, two unregistered pit bulls escaped from their home in Homebush and turned on a 75 year-old man.

Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable member for Bligh will come to order.

Mr BOB CARR: Today, a stud operator in Appin, Mr Howard Blight, faces the agonising decision whether to destroy two thoroughbred foals that last month were badly mauled by two American pit bulls.

Under New South Wales law, if a dog is declared dangerous, the owner must have the animal desexed, muzzle it in public, and keep it in a childproof enclosure. Owners face heavy penalties for breaching these rules or if their dog is involved in an attack. If all else fails, councils have the power to seize and destroy animals. Owners of dangerous dogs can face fines of up to $22,000, two years gaol and disqualification from owning a dog for life. These are strong laws, but with pit bull terriers, it is clear that we need to go further. A pit bull is a killing machine on a leash. Too often someone ends up in an emergency ward after an encounter with one of these dogs, to say nothing of damage to stock in rural areas.

This week the Minister for Local Government will meet with local government representatives and rangers to discuss how laws can be strengthened to help councils better control dangerous dogs. The Minister will also take this issue to the Ministerial Council on Local Government where he will push for a national approach.

But New South Wales is not prepared to wait and that is why the Government will introduce legislation to ban the breeding of pit bulls and similar breeds. The ban will be based on successful laws in force in Queensland. Our new laws will make it an offence to breed, sell, give away or acquire those dogs: and the penalties will be severe. We want to see those dangerous creatures bred out of existence.

The Government will also give councils the power to ban ownership of a restricted dog unless the owner has obtained council approval. The vast majority of dog owners do the right thing and are keen to always do the right thing, and most dog breeds are a benign addition to human happiness. However, there have been too many vicious, unprovoked attacks and pit bulls no longer have a place in this community.

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/hansart.nsf/V3Key/LA20050503014

[flvegan]

84. You can't have a custom motorcycle in NSW either.

See? I can post stuff that evades a point, too.

I take it that you don't have a dog census then?

[depakid]

87. I don't really give a shit about a dog census- neither did Premier Carr

However, I do care about all of the pit bull maulings throughout the Portland area over the past year- and several years.

One might also note that since the law's been passed in NSW there's been exactly one serious mauling- and that by a pit bull cross.

[Trajan]

78. Ah ... You're back .....

I expected you to see this post, and well ... There you are ....

The current state of the data ..... whether you like the methodology or not, shows that a preponderance of fatal attacks are due to the so-called 'dangerous breeds' ....

I went round and round with you some months ago about this, and while you complained mightily about the data being used to form this data base, you provided NO alternate data which was more reliable or more accurate as a true indicator of the danger presented by specific canine breeds ...

All you really have is your own word, and frankly, your anecdotes about how wonderful "American Pit Bull Terriers" behave, or the relative danger of pit bull breeds versus other breeds, is hardly any more scientific than the studies you so readily dismiss ....

I have seen enough 'real' data to recognize both the inherent danger of Pit Bull Terriers within the public sphere, and the outright hostility of owners against a society that wishes to protect it's own from unnecessary harm ....

I am against the ban: I am all for Pit Bull owners being held 'fully' accountable for the behavior of their animals .... up to and including jail time for owners if a fatal mauling occurs .... They would of course be financially responsible as well, being exposed to financial liability in the courts for the behavior of their animals, and that is how it should be ...

No excuses: You choose to own a dangerous breed ? - You pay a steep price if death and mayhem is caused by your animal ..... I wouldnt even limit that exposure to 'dangerous' breeds ... ALL breeds that cause harm are 'dangerous' .....

Now ... Cmon back and tell me how wrong I am .....

[flvegan]

82. Ah...you still don't have an argument.

Regardless of the state of the data, the preponderance of fatal attacks are due to ignorant and/or irresponsible owners.

[Trajan]

85. Wrong ...

The preponderance of fatal attacks are due to the sharp teeth of a natural carnivore .... Owners pretend they control such basic animal urges .... They are mistaken ....

I dont need an argument: Society is making it's choices without my input ...

[flvegan]

86. Well then

Since you don't have an argument, and you propose that you don't need one, I guess we're done here.

"Basic animal urges" :eyes:

[Trajan]

88. In the absence of studies that prove Pit Bulls are not dangerous ...

Studies that show them to be dangerous will be accepted in their stead ...

The Clifton studies were offered, and you countered with no other data ... Hence: The Clifton study stands ....

You didnt address the JAVMA data, which generally supports the results of the Clifton report ....

What argument did I need again ? .....

Oh ..... I dont NEED an argument, because you have not yet refuted the basic data (other than complaining about it, which does not refute it) ...

Show data that proves the Clifton reports wrong, and THEN I will need an argument ....

Until then, Clifton and JAVMA stands ....

[flvegan]

98. The JAVMA study?

Was that the one based on the CDC study? The one that BOTH parties ended because of how flawed they were? Flawed because they were tallied the same way the Clifton report was?

Let me know...because there's no data to refute when the data is shit.

[bitchkitty]

112. Jesus, that's not an article, it's a hit piece on pit bulls!

What they fail to mention is that those fatal pit bull attacks are usually made by dogs who have been savagely abused to learn to fight. They are antisocial and irredeemable, but not because they were born to be pit bulls.

A pit bull that is socialized from an early age is one of the best dogs you can have.

[byeya]

19. I too support Oregon in its attempt to ban this breed. I

think they should be banned countrywide. Given the proper set of circumstances, pit bulls lose control no matter how well they've been brought up, from what I've read.
Of course, extant dogs in homes should be grandfathered.

[Lucky Luciano]

21. My girlfriend is going to start a pit bull rescue so take that! nt

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flvegan]

51. I already run one.

I get extra pride in it when I read posts by morons. There are a number of them in this thread.

[Lucky Luciano]

63. Good for you! Those dogs deserve love from someone like you! nt

[FedUpWithIt All]

103. Do you have children?

I am just curious if you feel that these dogs should be reared in the average child filled home.

[Lucky Luciano]

108. I do not have kids...but my ex-g/f is a veterinarian...

...and she has rescued many pits and owns two (she is also the one that turned me on to the dogs when she showed me how awesome they are)...and she just had a baby. Her dogs are sweeties and she has no fear that the dogs will do anything bad. If anything, they may be protective.

I think German Sheperds are much more aggressive - but that is just anecdotal and based on what I have seen in dog parks and Central Park.

[FedUpWithIt All]

116. She should have fear. Every dog owning parent should have a healthy fear.

It is what keeps them on their toes.

I do think that dogs tend to see infants as equivalent to small animals and not necessarily as humans. If an owner introduces properly they will respect the place of the "small animal" in the home but a large amount of caution is imperative. The fact that this particular breed has long been bred to attack other animals is justification for concern where small people are involved. As anyone who has ever loved a Pit can attest, once they set their mind to something, there is little dissuading them.

[Lucky Luciano]

119. You have a fair point....I don't know how she really feels...

she is my ex after all and have not really discussed it with her.

[Chulanowa]

121. Yup, never trust your kid alone around any dog

Dogs do recognize babies and children as humans - they look like us, they smell like us. Dogs don't comprehend that they are young humans, however, and have no way of knowing how fragile a kid is. So they see kids as just someone new to play with, especially since most kids aren't going to do much to deter the dog from playing with them.

I got my ass kicked by a dalmatian when I was four. He knocked me over and rolled me around the back yard like a soccer ball. Didn't hurt me, but scared the hell out of me.

Also... Never trust your kid around a husky or malamute. Period. I have doubts about the Spitz-type's abilities to recognize children as much more than meat on the hoof. A very possessive, instinct-driven bunch, those.

[FedUpWithIt All]

122. Babies will also stare straight into the face of a dog, babble and flail like crazy.

They can cause the calmest dog to react badly.

[Chulanowa]

125. They get the same reaction out of me

Strange little creatures, aren't they? :D

[Robb]

139. I'll come to the defense of huskies here

Well-raised huskies are the most patient animals I've ever seen around small children. That said, I've yet to meet a Mal that has the same level of patience.

That said, there's no reason to ever leave children around unsupervised animals. :)

[roody]

105. I participate in a dog obedience group called "Pit Crew."

We meet twice a week and work with the pits and pit mixes at the County shelter to make them the most adoptable dogs. I love working with the dogs. Many have been adopted. If they are dog aggressive and do not cease to be from our training, they get euthanized.

[flvegan]

106. Thanks for volunteering, that's fantastic!

What a grand idea that is, kudos to the Pit Crew.

[Critters2]

35. There have been two pit bulls banned from our obedience class

(my dog is a rally obedience dog with her RN title), for dog aggression. One was so aggressive that I told the instructor I'd quit the class if that dog continued. Turns out, I was the third handler to give her that ultimatum. The beagle was terrified of both of these dogs. They were just too aggressive to be around other dogs...and these were pitbulls whose owners were trying to train them in obedience work. That seems to fly in the face of the "it's always bad owners" meme.

[LeftyMom]

110. $5 says your beagle is terrified of pibbles because you are.

Dogs are perceptive that way. ;)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

151. Yep

Mick acts like a vicious lunatic whenever he sees a new person near his property, but once he sees that I'm acting friendly with them, he calms down. In 2 seconds he can go from snarling and lunging with his hackles up, to sitting down politely and doing the happy full body wag.

Now, if acted scared of that person, Mick would have never calmed down.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

159. "pibbles"?

:eyes: gag. BTW, dogs have self-preservation instinct that has little to do with our attitudes...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

150. There's a big difference between dog aggression and human aggression

[bitchkitty]

25. This will not pass.

There are too many pit bull owners here for this too ever pass.

[The Unknown Derelict]

27. They're trying to ban Gov. Palin from Oregon?

Don't like or understand something...how about we BAN IT! :sarcasm:

Seriously though, this is extremely naive and a waste of time. How about instead educating the politicians and the public that promote ideas such as this?

[stevedeshazer]

28. This will never happen. Bruce Starr is nuttier than a squirrel turd.

This is Bruce's fantasy. He's so far right, he's almost invisible in Oregon.

[Buck Laser]

29. My experience with pit bulls at the dog park hasn't been positive.

While some of them are docile and obedient, I've seen enough that are aggressive and hostile to feel comfortable around them. My dog, a flat coat retriever, is gregarious and friendly, but I've seen pit bulls so aggressive that he turns and runs from them. Someone may have a lovable one, but I don't intend to take the risk to find out. Sorry if this seems ignorant, but I only have experience to go on. My distrust of aggressive breeds would include Rottweilers and Dobermans as well as some inconsequential dogs like Daschhunds.

[IndianaGreen]

32. My experience with them has been negative as well, and I blame their owners

My dog and I were attacked by a pit bull at a public park. Clearly the dog's owner had this dog for fighting other dogs. He couldn't control his dog even with a leash.

And for those responsible owners of pit bulls, many of which are rescued animals, I have no quarrels with any of you.

[Critters2]

36. See post no, 35 nt

[WriteDown]

50. Not always the owner...

Their just not family dogs, nor are they dogs that play well with others. Great for single males living out in the country, but not a dog that can wrestle with the kids. I've seen many sweet and I mean SWEET pitbulls that were under a year of age, but the aggressiveness seems to begin at the onset of adulthood.

[B3Nut]

58. Human-aggression is uncharacteristic and a serious fault.

They are often, like most terrier breeds and many working breeds, aggressive toward other dogs to varying degree, with this becoming apparent as the animal matures. However, they remain a highly human-oriented breed. Dog-aggressiveness can usually be controlled with good training and reinforcement. As far as playing with kids, a well-bred American Pit Bull Terrier is a superb companion...Pete the Pup isn't just an historical relic, he is still a present-day reality, despite poorly-bred specimens from backyard breeders remaining popular with unsavory types. Pit Bulls are used in animal-facilitated therapy, search-and-rescue, drug interdiction, and many other tasks. There are very few canine tasks at which they cannot excel. We routinely take Pit Bulls to elementary and secondary schools for humane education presentations...the dogs are a hit every time and they love hamming it up for the kids.

They do require good guidance, thorough socialization and a firm hand, and things to do...they like to be busy, and will get into trouble. They do not do well in isolation...spending most of their life chained up with little human contact is a recipe for disaster. They are on the needy side and need to be with their people. Someone wishing to acquire one for the purpose of compensating for a perceived masculinity deficiency has no business even looking at a stuffed one. People of that mindset lack the intellectual wherewithal to be good, responsible dog owners. The American Pit Bull Terrier is a loyal, intelligent, and hardy breed, truly one of the greats, but they're not for everybody. No breed is, for that matter.

I've been in this breed for over 15 years...I've only seen a handful of truly nasty pits out of hundreds upon hundreds I've dealt with. Occasionally one will come into rescue with a dodgy temperament, in those cases we do euthanize the animal rather than risk the animal and/or adopter becoming a statistic. Even given some of the horrific circumstances we rescue Pit Bulls from, such euthanasias are rare. Oftener than not they bounce back from horrid situations and seem almost grateful for a second chance, and they blossom.

[WriteDown]

67. Sounds like you are very familiar with them....

You make many good points, but I think the most salient is that an average person is not knowledgeable enough to train a pit.

[B3Nut]

101. Not even so much knowledgeable as dedicated.

Actually, that goes for any breed. It actually isn't that difficult provided you start with a well-bred sound member of the breed, they are eager to please if occasionally mischievous...I had a male who sneakily tried to get a plate of food to fall on the floor without being noticed by my grandmother...he grabbed the edge of the terrycloth placemat and slowly inched the plate toward the edge. Fortunately, Grandma turned around and caught Obie in the act and scolded him, after which he sat and pouted...he was an amusing dog. ;) I lost him to cancer in '03 and still miss that goof.


(Obie on Grandma's porch circa 1994)

Unfortunately, in many urban areas where backyard breeding is prevalent selection for soundness of temperament isn't even a priority. The dogs we've seen coming from those environs are more variable than those from, say, a classic UKC line such as the great old Colby line. The unfortunate continuation of the pit-bull-as-status-symbol mythos by hip-hop culture has not helped matters, either. Once the various unsavory elements grow tired of the pit bull, watch for the breed to be replaced by something else. Breed-specific legislation never solves the root causes of dog attacks, it just shoves the problem elsewhere only for it to crop up again.

A lot of good info can be found at:

http://www.workingpitbull.com/Page1.html - Diane Jessup's site, she's a veteran dog trainer and has worked animal control as well.
http://www.forpitssake.org/ - Search-and-rescue worker Kris Crawford's site. She has been using Pit Bulls for SAR for many years now.

[Chulanowa]

124. Human idiocy is the leading cause of pit bull attacks, I've noticed

Not just the assholes who breed badly or abuse them... but the people who have no idea what the dogs need.

I know a lady in Hebo, OR, who is like, four-eleven. Really little lady. She got herself a Jack Russel terrier. She cannot keep this animal under control. She just bought a cute puppy, and had no understanding of what living with a terrier meant. So this poor animal is usually bored out of his mind, and when she takes him out, he's like a firecracker going off. The little hellion's worn me and my dog out and we were taking shifts trying to exhaust him while dogsitting. At least I can physically restrain the little bastard - he nearly drags this woman everywhere.

And for some reason, I've heard so many stories of people her size getting pit bulls, and also not comprehending the terrier nature. When you choose a breed that's basically a hyperactive land shark with the brains of an avocado, it's your responsibility to know what you're getting into and that you can handle it. And not to sound sexist, but a five-foot two woman isn't going to be able to handle a pit bull properly. Hell, I'm a five seven guy, and I have trouble with the feat... having a leashed pit bull in hand is a lot like having a rope tied to an abrams tank.

[B3Nut]

132. Oh, they've got more brains than an avocado

I think you're confusing them with W. :D "Land sharks with avocado-sized brains" would not generally make very good search-and-rescue dogs (APBT's excel at this) or therapy dogs (they excel at this as well.) :)

They can pull quite strongly, hence the need to get "heel" firmly drilled in. They are athletic and energetic, after all. There are, however, plenty of 5'2" and thereabouts women who handle them with aplomb...used to see it often in the show and obedience rings at the events the UKC APBT club I belonged to in Michigan used to put on. Hell, my wife is about 5'6", stoutly built, and I have yet to see a dog she can't wrangle under control. She's a keen trainer and quite a good vet tech...being able to restrain large, strong dogs is a helpful skill in her field. Incidentally, Pit Bulls are quite popular among veterinary staff...several of her colleagues own at least one and she's gotten colleagues involved in the rescue as well.

Jack Russels need room and space to be active...they like to work. They're great for vermin control on the farm. Your lady friend would do well to get into an agility program, JRT's excel at agility work. It gives them something to do, and is fun for the handler as well.

I haven't even touched the subject of spay/neuter for non-exhibiting animals, something that is to everyone's benefit.

Incidentally, the city of Calgary, Alberta eschewed breed-specific legislation (BSL) in favor of an individualistic approach. The result? A solid drop in dog-bite incidents despite a growing population of humans and a growing population of Pit Bulls.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Life/Calgary+attacks+fall+lowest+level+years/1313555/story.html

"A new pet owner bylaw was brought in three years ago that included stiffer fines and a recognition that aggressive behaviour in dogs is normally traced back to irresponsible owners. Bruce (Calgary bylaw officer) said both the heavier penalties -- ranging from $350 to $1,500, to euthanizing the dog--and the philosophy of blaming bad owners rather than pets has helped reduce incidents."

This is an example of a common-sense solution providing results.

[Lucky Luciano]

64. They are caled the "Nanny Dog" sometimes:

http://dogs.about.com/cs/breedprofiles/p/staffordshire.htm

"Affectionately called "The Nanny Dog" in England, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier belies the reputation given to him by those who are unfamiliar with him, and is a trustworthy companion to children and adults alike. True to Terrier nature, however, he can be stubborn at times and requires firm, but loving handling to prevent him from taking over the home."

[WriteDown]

68. English Staffies....

are not American Pitbulls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pitbull_Terrier

[Lucky Luciano]

70. fair enough, but they are very closely related dogs...

..and I have heard the APBT referred to as the Nanny Dog as well.

[WriteDown]

72. Cool....

I have no hatred of the animals, but I just think that the average owners are woefully unequipped to have one :).

[KurtNYC]

89. Living in Brooklyn you get to learn which dogs are owned for fighting

Generally if you see a pit bull that still has its testicles then that is a dog being kept for fighting and breeding.

Scars on the head, extra heavy chain collar also are signs. Pit bull owners get other dogs from shelters or steal them off the street for their pits to practice on. In California, they sit in their truck or van while they turn their pit out in a park and watch it attack any dog there and then let it back into the vehicle and drive off.

We should ban breeding these nationwide. Grandfather existing ones who are neutered, euthanize those that end up in shelters. These are the most abused dogs in America and though it is not the fault of the dogs, it should be stopped by any humane means necessary.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

42. Honestly, my experience with Labs at the dog park has been horrible

All the pits have been okay.

I think there's some nasty line of puppy mill labs around here or something. EVERY SINGLE LAB at the dog park is dog aggressive. It's really fucking weird. I'm not a Lab fan, but previously every Lab I've known has been nice.

[Lucky Luciano]

65. I like Labs a lot actually....but

I have noticed some of what you have noticed. There is a good number of Labs I have seen at Central Park and dog parks that are definitely very aggressive in a bad way. I was very surprised because before I got my dog in Dec 2007, all the Labs I had ever known were total mushes and very friendly.

Once I got a dog, I learned a ton about my dog and many others. My dog (the pit pictured above) has never ever come close to attacking anyone - though she has annoyed dogs by stealing their toys and playing keep away! The worst attack my dog ever received was from a Golden Retriever - which shocked me because I thought all Goldens were very good dogs - guess you cannot stereotype dogs either! The Golden ripped up my dogs winter jacket in 11 places and she was breathing heavily and was terrified. My dog had made the mistake of being too friendly to the Golden's owner, but the Golden got jealous and attacked viciously. It was partly my fauly because the Golden's owner said her dog was not friendly and we were chatting it up when mine got too close - but I should have just left the area when I heard how unfriendly her dog was.

[Jennicut]

115. I had a rescue lab that had many aggression issues, we had to give it back

to the rescue organization. He went through some training and was adopted out to people who had no kids. Its not really the breed of dog but how the dog has been raised. The lab we had was abused and taught to fear people.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

152. Well, I'm only about 30 minutes from Manhattan, so we're probably seeing the same lines of dogs

[MisterP]

37. well, they're not called "moral panics" for their clear-headedness, safeguards against guilt by

association or mass punishment, or thorough rational and ethical debate...
:crazy:

[XemaSab]

39. That's.... problematic

:(

[quakerboy]

41. I doubt it would go anywhere

It would be nice if they separated part and and part B. If your animal attacks and or kills someone(or even another animal) i think there should be some pretty hefty consequences. Train your animal.

I think Pits are less stable than other breeds. Banning a breed still isn't the answer. Make the owner responsible, and they will start to self regulate.

[Lost in CT]

46. I think we should ban pit bulls with collapsible stocks and pistol grips. nt

[flvegan]

49. Is that Republican Senator Starr?

Why yes it is! Idiots believe media hype. Example proven.

[Mr. Hyde]

52. If I see a pit bull on my property, I'll shoot it immediately. They're evil dogs.

Terriers in general suck because A.) they aren't overly bright or trainable B.) the only instincts they have involve killing things and C.) they have been bred to be fearless, ruthless, and unyielding. They are typically intransigent alphas that are, frequently, incapable of acquiescing to a subordinate role even in the case of their human "masters" which is why pit bulls so frequently attack humans. Here's a list of pit bull attacks. Anyone who can read through this list and still come to the conclusion that pit bulls are no more dangerous than golden retrievers is smoking crack. http://pit-bulls.christianfunfair.org/attacks.htm
pit bulls suck.

[flvegan]

53. Ignorant.

Yet another douchebag website using the Clifton report as gospel. Yet another DUer falling for it.

Your A, B and C show you have no idea what you're talking about.

[B3Nut]

59. That's a right hoot...

Intransigent alphas? Incapable of submitting to a human master? Not intelligent? That's some of the most concentratedly inane balderdash I've seen in a long time! Someone send in the failboat....epic cynology fail here.

Given the sheer number of APBT's extant, were they truly as bad as the ingnorati hysterically claim things would be far, far worse than is actually the case.

[flvegan]

61. I knew you'd get it.

[Mr. Hyde]

94. Why is it you never hear about a beagle clawing through a door to kill an old lady I wonder?

or going into someone's yard and killing the family pet? Seems like there's no end to the stories of pit bulls doing shit like this. I guess it's all some big conspiracy to deprive the world of this innocent breed of dog, right? Everything I posted was true and the fact is, your immediate rush to hostility makes you sound like every other trashy pitbull owner I've ever talked to. I know your dog wouldn't be welcomed in my neighborhood and I suspect you wouldn't be either. Bottom line, I will shoot a pitbull if I see it running loose on my property.

[flvegan]

100. "I know your dog wouldn't be welcomed in my neighborhood and I suspect you wouldn't be either."

"Trashy pit bull owner"? Nice post Mr. Hyde. I run a rescue that specializes in pits. I'm a member of our animal community in high standing. I wouldn't want to find myself nor any of my dogs in a shitty neighborhood like yours, so I guess we're even, douchebag.

[Mr. Hyde]

102. ......

If you say so. I still stand by my claim that terriers, frequently, suck as house pets and pit bull terriers are the worst of the lot and; furthermore, the majority of the people who own them are, with rare exception, trashy and have no business owning something like a pitbull. Now, I won't claim that a pitbull isn't the best at what he does but what he does is damn ugly. As far as that goes, I wouldn't necessarily be happy seeing the breed (any breed) extinct either but I think they should be regulated every bit as harshly as a handgun and I think people should be forced to have alarge amount of liability insurance on the dog for when it goes berserk and kills or maims someone. And, furthermore, I'm still going to shoot one without question if it's on my property, not because I want to, not because I get off on that kind of thing, but because I'm not giving a dangerous animal with an undisputable reputation for attacking pets and humans a chance to wreck havoc in my life or in the life of any of my neighbors. I love dogs but I'm not taking chances with an animal like that. They're dangerous as hell to begin with but when they're off the chain and running free sans human control, they're downright evil.

[FedUpWithIt All]

104. Um, no. The best behaved, well trained, gentle and obedient dog i have ever known

was a Pit.

Your post is obviously slanted.

When we are speaking about something like the fate of a breed of dog, slanting the argument EITHER WAY (and it does get slanted just as dishonestly and unrealistically in support) does a great disservice to the breed and the humans who interact with them.

They are intelligent and loving dogs that can be quite disciplined. They can also be reactive and dangerous. The truth lies somewhere in the center of all the hoopla and we should try and find the truth so we can begin to really handle the situation responsibly, for the sake of the dogs as well as for the people who might be in contact with them.

[Mr. Hyde]

107. Um, yes.

My post is in no way slanted. Like I said earlier in this conversation, why don't you ever hear about a beagle getting loose and killing every pet in the neighborhood? Why don't you ever hear about a golden retriever chewing through a door and killing a helpless elderly person? I'll tell you why. It's because beagles have been bred to chase rabbits and golden retrievers have been bred to retrieve downed game birds. What has the pit bull been bred for? It has been bred to be a vicious and unyielding killer. It really is that simple. Like I also said, I don't want to see the breed destroyed but I do think that they should be regulated as harshly as a handgun and the people who own them should have to be forced to have liability insurance just like a car because far too often these dogs get loose and go berserk and the owners are all too often without any means of compensating victims for the damage these animals do. There's just no way to paint these dogs as lovable cuddly family pets after the countless stories of them killing and maiming other pets and humans. I think my proposal is more than fair given the nature of these animals. that's the dog lover in me talking but, the fact is, this is an animal that has demonstrated a willingness and an ability to run down humans and kill them. I'm pretty sure a damn good argument could be made for wiping this breed out entirely based on that alone.

[FedUpWithIt All]

117. Calling dogs "evil" is slanted.

And you are wrong when you generalize and say that Pit Bulls are not overly bright or trainable. They can be violent, as any dog can. Their power, combined with this potential for violence, has the potential to cause more damage them that of a small dog. Does this make a dog evil, ignorant or incomparably violent? Um, no.

I agree with serious regulating of the breed, if only to attempt to clean up the breeding practices and begin to clean up the image which is partly based on slanted and somewhat hysterical bickering on both sides of the debate.

[LeftyMom]

111. Being a gentle and loving soul, if there was an ignorant asshole on my property, I'd count to three

before the violence happened. But I'd count fast.

By the way, what the hell kind of authoritative source is christianfunfair.org?

[Chulanowa]

127. You'd have more cause to blast away all the raccoons in your yard

Or perhaps you could feed them in the hopes they'll stick around and scare off all the pit bulls haunting your nightmares.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

153. You're an idiot, and terriers are VERY smart dogs

A smart dog doesn't necessarily mean it's the easiest dog to train.

It's not a terrier's fault that he's smarter than you.

And really, your source is "Christianfunfair.org?"

:rofl:

[BreweryYardRat]

54. Ooh boy.

:popcorn:

All I'm going to say is that an outright ban is a really stupid idea, but pits are big, strong dogs. It might not be a bad idea to restrict ownership of the breed to people physically capable of restraining a full-grown pit.

It'd be merry hell to come up with a set of criteria for legally defining "physical capability to restrain a pit bull" though.

[caseymoz]

60. Not a good idea. They are really, nice gentle dogs.

What made the Pit Bull, or its forerunner the Staffordshire Bull Terrior, so good as a fighting dog was not that they were meaner. It was the fact that they could fight better than other dogs in the ring, but that even wounded, would not attack the referee or any other person. In other words, even trained as fighting dogs, they were even-tempered under stress.

If a Pit Bull is mean, it's the owner's doing.

Not only that, many attacks attributed to pit bulls, are actually other breads. The media is very careless about reporting it and may include other breeds with similar physical characteristics, such as the Perro de Presa Canario, Cane Corso, Dogo Argentino, Alano Espanol, Japanese Tosa, Dogue de Bordeaux, Cordoba Fighting Dog, Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog, American Bulldog, Boxer, Valley Bulldog, Olde English Bulldogge, Renascence Bulldogge, Banter Bulldogge, or is what is really a mutt.

[JCMach1]

91. I only had two dogs try to attack me as a child- both were pitbulls

and were 'alleged' good dogs. Fortunately, I was a fast runner.

For me, at least, it's the equivalent of having a loaded gun around the house... the only difference is that the example is protected by the Constitution...

Pitbulls aren't...

I say bravo to Oregon for standing up to the all dogs are good lobby.

[Abq_Sarah]

128. Ive been bitten twice

Once by a Poodle and once by a Dachshund.

Would you support banning them?

[JCMach1]

138. Haven't noticed any recent deaths by Dachsund...

To use the gun analogy, that's like comparing a cap gun to a .357

[boilinmad]

162. The thing is...

....poodles and dachshunds dont have massive powerful locking jaws that clamp down and tear muscle and break bones. So its kind of like apples and oranges.

[caseymoz]

134. After having looked up the statistics on dog attacks, I have to retract

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

Statistics show that Pit Bulls are off-the-chart dangerous. It's strange because for the first half of the 20th century, they were about the most popular dog-breeds.

The link article makes some interesting points, that one cannot treat a Pit Bull or a Doberman as just any other breed. Other dogs will have "bad moments," but for those two breeds, the bad moment results in maimings or deaths.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

155. FFS, that data is flawed as explained numerous times upthread

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

154. Guess what breed of dog I was viciously attacked by?

A Lhasa Apso. That dog went on to attack the owner's daughter unprovoked when she was sitting on the floor (the girl was about 12). He did some serious facial damage.

Clearly, we should ban Lhasa Apsos.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[960]

109. Pit bulls need to be banned outright.

It doesn't matter that "it's the owner that needs to be trained, not the dog" The owners AREN'T trained, and the general public is at risk.
And don't tell me about how they are no more dangerous than other dogs.
There is a little pit bull terrorist in my neighborhood that is always killing or attacking.

[TEXASYANKEE]

133. Temple Grandin's new book

"Animals Make Us Human" contends that Pit Bulls *used* to be a wonderful breed. They were bred to fight other dogs, but to *never* harm humans. But bad breeders started breeding good fighters with pits that showed human aggression, turning them into virtual fighting/killing machines. It was this specific breeding that is ruining the breed and/or giving it the bad name.

My neighbor had 2 really sweet pit bull puppies. She had to give both away before they were 2 years old, as they suddenly developed aggression issues. She knew she couldn't give them the training their issues required, so they gave them to a rescue group. I wonder what kind of breeding was in their genes.

[LeftyMom]

135. I would be in favor of a ban on Temple Grandin.

[RebelOne]

140. I have had two pit bulls and two Rottweilers.

The pit bulls and one Rottie are now deceased. But all of them were the most gentle, loving dogs you would ever want to know. My current Rottie, Legend, is nothing but a big baby.

[gabby garcia]

143. This is basically what the chimp's owner said

many times for years before her "baby" ripped her friend's face off.

Animals are not our "babies".

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

156. Are you seriously comparing a chimp 7 times stronger than a human to a dog?

Because we already had that stupid thread.

[and-justice-for-all]

144. I can never blame the dogs...It is always the owners fault...nt

[Bo]

147. ECUADOR just banned them as well.....inc. Rotweillers

These dogs are loaded hand guns left outside for kids to play with. I disagree with people saying they are non-violent. It is genetics that they kill.

[B3Nut]

148. Sorry sir, but you mistake.

No reputable animal professional agrees with that statement. It is knee-jerk emotionalism and scientific ignorance. Breed-specific legislation is a putrescent refuge of the intellectually lazy: politicians who want to look like they're doing something without having to actually expend real mental energy. It is wholly ineffective in dealing with the problem of biting dogs, a problem whose root causes are far more environmental and experiential.

Good reading here: http://www.animalfarmfoundation.org/topic.php?id=21&topic=17

Calgary, AB experienced a decline in dog bites despite a growth in population by implementing non-breed-specific regulations targeting problem dog owners with hefty fines and help obtaining training. Saner heads are prevailing in other locales as well, including in the UK where the KC, RSPCA, and various veterinary medical associations are calling for the repeal of the breed-specific language in the Dangerous Dogs Act.

You might want to check out www.forpitssake.org also, and have a look at the American Pit Bull Terriers involved in search-and-rescue; these dogs worked the search for the Columbia astronauts among other high-profile cases, and along with their handler have received numerous awards from communities and law enforcement agencies. When not doing SAR, these animals are doing therapy work in hospitals, nursing homes, and childrens' facilities. Many Pit Bulls are certified therapy dogs; we are working toward certification with a couple of ours (we've already been doing humane ed presentations with them for years.)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

157. you are right

my terrier breed goes after squirrels & chipmunks,etc., and it would take major effort on my part to train that out of him. In fact, I don't think it really could be done. If he had a chance at a squirrel, & I were not there to control him, his instinct would take over... Why pit bull defenders cant grasp or admit this is a study in itself. I just had another frightening and day-wrecking experience with a loose pitbull this morning, as I was walking my dog across the road from the campground I am staying in... Letting your pit bull run loose is like giving a monkey a loaded gun, I say.

[junior college]

158. Sound like a good bill to me

I hope they introduce it in California. After having been charged by a pit bull and having read local stories about children having their ears, noses and fingers ripped off by pit bulls, I am all for this bill. A fine for having a pit bull that attacks someone is great but it doesn't help a four-year-old child who has had their face and hands torn off by the teeth and jaws of a pit bull. And indeed a pit bull's agreesive behaviour is largely based on how it is raised but that doesn't help when so many people raise them like shit.

[zonkers]

161. Bravo! Ban them. Sure they can be trained but as long as more morons than dog whisperers own them,

I say fuck em. So what if they can be trained by the right owner. For the most part, they mall too many innocent dogs and people. They make others live in constant terror. I hope we ban them in CA.

[rd_kent]

163. Dogs are like children

Its up to the owners (parents) to raise them responsibly. I dont agree with banning dogs, just like I dont think we should ban children, but we SHOULD hold owners (and parents) totally responsible for the actions of those in their care. Owning a dog, of any breed, and having children is a choice an adult makes. The adults need to be held responsible for the choices they make.