Nader to Enter Presidential Race

[NoMoreRedInk]

Headline, no story yet, on Foxnews.com.

[Loonman]

1. A pox on his house

Most emphatically.

[Kolesar]

2. they egged Ah-nold on the campaign trail

When is this egomaniac coming to my town? I'd like to attend.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

3. Fantastic Idea

We should organize Nader protest rallies in every city he comes to.

[hlthe2b]

6. Nahh... Just ignore him and keep our eye on the "prize..."

Remember (sadly) how quickly both Dean and Clark were marginalized when the press stopped talking about them? Well, perhaps if we ignore Nader, the press will shortly loose and "story potential" in covering him....

[leesa]

129. Except that the press WANTS him to run. The 'press' are owned by

the GOP. Same entity that, sadly, seems to own Ralph.

[vi5]

4. We've really got to ignore him this time around....

So many of us spent so much time and energy trying to convince Nader voters and making them feel loved and coddle them and even listening to their "no difference" schpiel when we should have been more focused on convincing people who could be won over and who weren't trying to just prove a point with their vote.

I won't make the same mistake again. If my Nader friends want to vote Nader again I am not going to try and stop them. If after 3 and a half years of bush if they can't see the differences than I am not the one who will be able to convince them.

[htuttle]

8. I don't think most Nader voters were voting for Nader in 2000

All the ones I know were voting for the Green Party (to get ballot access, etc...).

What party is Nader saying he's running under this time? It's not the Green Party -- who is it?

[Wickerman]

13. last time he might have truly thought he had a chance

so I cut him some slack and tried to believe in his speil. I liked what he said. However, to be comeptitive, you have to modify your message to appeal to a broader base. That is, if not rule one, one of the first rules of politics. Like it or not, he won't do that so he isn't, nor will ever be competitive.

If he isn't competitive, it would be my wish that he would stay the hell out of the way so that the vote to oust Bush is in no way diluted.

[mouse7]

15. Doesn't have "Help the Green Party qualify" argument this time

It just Ralph and his right wing funding. I say just publicise where Ralph is getting his money and to hell with bothering with anything else to do with him.

[Pattib]

38. I did that during the 2000 election to my husband.

We were on our way to vote in the 2000 election and before getting out of the car my husband said, "I think I'm going to vote for Nader". I said, "Are you crazy"? "No, you are voting for Gore"!

I actually thought he was kidding, or trying to scare me. He laughed and said, "O.K., O.K." We live in Florida so I'm still not sure if our votes were really counted anyways.

[a_random_joel]

5. Whatta SCHMUCK!

Hopefully people have wised up this time around.

[Khephra]

7. Hmmmmmmmmmmm

I understand why.

[Terran]

59. Do you know something the rest of us don't, Keph? n/t

[Vogon_Glory]

9. Slap A Bush Cheney Bumpersticker On Every Naderite Bumper

Let 'em show who they're helping to re-elect.

[stevedeshazer]

84. Yup

Vandalize their cars. That'll show 'em. :eyes:

[Vogon_Glory]

94. More Like Vandalize Their Bumpersticker

[mouse7]

10. Fuck Ralph! Fuck his right-wing backers!

Right wing is funding and fueling his campaign again.

[mhr]

11. This Is Great News! The DLC Needs To Be Reminded Why They Are Hated

by the rank and file.

If others don't want Nader to run, get rid of the DLC. It is that simple.

[Snivi Yllom]

Nader's timing is no good

He should have done this back in Decemeber. Then there would have been more pressure to the left to pick a progressive candidate.

[mhr]

20. He Talked About It Back Then Which Should Have Been Warning Enough

The fact that Dean was torpedoed by the DLC should be proof enough that the rank and file are irrelevant to the party bosses.

'nuff said!

[Deaner1971]

34. Was it the DLC's credit for Dean leading at the onset?

Glad to know that your allegiance to one man is worth putting Bush back in the White House. So for you, the preference goes #1 Dean #2 Anyone other than a Democrat?

Dean's campaign was unsuccessful and so it goes. It will be Kerry or Edwards in all probablility. I didn't start out backing these men but, I will back my party to the hilt.

This is the Democratic Party not the "My Candidate or I Ruin it for my Nation" Party.

Wishing that Bush will win if your candidate doesn't make the cut is ridiculous.

[Hamlette]

62. rank and file?

all 3% of you who voted for Ralph last time? Don't be silly.

[formernaderite]

81. Back in December he made comments....

..essentially supporting a Dean candidacy. The democratic status quo spoke, and decided neither Dean nor Nader mattered much.

[mobuto]

28. This is Great News - it will destroy the Democratic Party

Brilliant.

I take it you'd rather destroy the DLC than, uh, defeat Bush or get Democrats elected in November? And if you think there's no difference between Kerry and Edwards and Bush, then you just haven't been paying attention. The differences are stunning.

[mhr]

33. The DLC Must Go! One Never Said There Are No Differences Just Not Enough

Corporate owned politicians are still corporate owned politicians.

It matters not which party they come from.

A bought man is still a bought man.

By the way, this is an old debate at DU.

Most agree the DLC must go!

[mobuto]

43. Four More Years, Four More Years

Again, you'd rather condemn the nation to four more years of George W. Bush than get a Democrat - backed in part by people with whom you deisagree - elected?

If so, maybe this isn't the forum for you.


Corporate owned politicians are still corporate owned politicians.

Maybe. But the only way you're going to get money out of politics is to elect people to Congress and to the Presidency who will pass meaningful campaign finance reform. The Republicans will never do that. The Democrats will.

Most agree the DLC must go!

I'm no fan of the DLC either. But that's not the issue. The issue is whether Bush gets reelcted in November. You seem to want him to do it.

[mhr]

52. You Are Reaching With Your Comments, I Say The DLC Should Go

If It Takes Ralph To Bring Down The DLC, Then So Be It!

[mobuto]

55. You say the DLC should go

I say the DLC should go.

But at what cost? If you vote for Ralph Nader, George Bush will be reelected. Simple.

Is that what you want?

[mhr]

67. My Vote In Texas Won't Matter, Texas Will Select Bush Regardless

My vote should count for something, a protest against the DLC leadership and its control of the democratic party.

[mobuto]

70. Nonsense

There are millions of Democrats in Texas. Bush will probably win regardless, but we can make him work for it.

[malachibk]

112. GET OVER IT

Yes, the DLC deserves protest but the stakes are too high. Pick your battles, mhr.

And Ralph Nader must truly have the smallest pr*** in the world if his thirst for attention and validation matter more to him than ousting Bush. A true Green would care more about getting this anti-environment president out of office than getting his *ego* stroked.

I pray to God that if Nader runs, those that voted for him last time keep their eyes on the prize this time.

[Sterling]

116. "The Democrats will."

I agree that that statement is very reaching. I have no reason to believe that the party is in favor if getting off the corporate teat. That was what Dean's campaign was about and he was rejected by the DLC.

[mobuto]

120. Democratic Platform

RENEWING OUR DEMOCRACY AND CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM

In the year 2000, along with all the other big choices they have to make, Americans will be making a choice about who's running their country: the people or the special interests, the voters or the lobbyists, the many or the few. We must restore American's faith in their own democracy by providing real and comprehensive campaign finance reform, creating fairer and more open elections, and breaking the link between special interests and political influence.

The Republicans will have none of this. Instead of limiting the influence of the powerful on our politics, they want to raise contribution limits so even more special interest money can flow into campaigns. The big-time lobbyists and special interest were so eager to invest in George W. Bush and deliver campaign cash to him hand-over-fist that he became the first major party nominee to pull out of the primary election financing structure and refuse to abide by campaign spending limits.

In this year's presidential primaries it became clear that the Republican establishment is violently opposed to John McCain's call for reforming our democracy. Al Gore supports John McCain's campaign for political reform. In fact, the McCain-Feingold bill is the very first piece of legislation that a President Al Gore will submit to Congress - and he will fight for it until it becomes the law of the land.

Then he will go even further - much further. He will insist on tough new lobbying reform, publicly-guaranteed TV time for debates and advocacy by candidates, and a crackdown on special interest issue ads. Most boldly of all, Al Gore has proposed a public-private, non-partisan Democracy Endowment which will raise money from Americans and finance Congressional elections - with no other contributions allowed to candidates who accept the funding. This will let our politics be free from the influence of special interests and let Americans believe in their own democracy again.

[Deaner1971]

45. Didn't realize that you had taken a poll...

Are you taking steps to change the leadership of the party or just advocating a Bush re-election?

[Ruby Romaine]

66. What about the money in Ralphie's "Tastes like burning" Nader's

Swiss bank acct from the repukes?

[Democat]

113. It's great news if you want Bush to be elected

There are some people on DU who want Bush for another four years so they can punish the American people for not supporting their candidate.

They don't care about all the people dying, as long as the voters are punished for not picking the guy they liked.

[Loonman]

12. Repubs and Bush fans are ecstatic, now

They know Ralph is going to whine, cajole and steal votes to keep Bush in the White House.

[w13rd0]

75. Ralph Nader owns Diebold?

Interester and curiouser...

[VolcanoJen]

14. @%#!!!!!!!!

Arrrrggghhhhh!!!!

@#%%*%$$!!!!

Wish I could tell y'all how I really feel....

[Fargin Ice Hole]

16. o crap here we go again.........

a 200 plus thread count with critics complainingg of everything from his ego, to his money , to his intelect ,to what car he drives , to what he eats for breakfast etc. etc. etc......

Assertations and conspiracy theories about this guy have poped up faster then stories of the chupacabra in surounding villages.

Lets get ready to Rumbbbleeeeee!!!!!!

Don't bother replying, I won't be back here(well maybe), Any topic with the word Nader in it goes to hell in a hand basket faster then I could type this.

[bluedeminredstate]

17. Another four years for Carville

Carville said on Meet the Press after the 2000 election that he would not speak Nader's name for four years because he was so incensed. It actually made me do the same thing with El Chimpo - I never use the "P" word before Bush. I figured if Carville could do it I could too. It looks like Carville's in for another four years.

What a dickhead Nader is. What the F**K is wrong with him? Weren't the last three years enough to show him he was wrong???? The only hope is that there are many repentent Nader voters who won't do the same thing again. I used to respect Nader, but this looks like ego and that's all.

[Whoa_Nelly]

18. Can Nader's financial backing info be revealed?

http://www.foxnews.com/
Saw it listed as breaking news.

Perhaps Fox is:
1)Jumping the gun and reporting a false report due to the upcoming yes/no announcement to be aired on MTP

OR

2)Fox/Murdoch/GOP is funding Nader to run

If Nader does announce he will enter the race, can his financial backing info be discovered/revealed?
Anyone know?

[cyclezealot]

19. I intend to vote for Kerry ,but I understand.

I have no enthusism for Kerry what so ever. ANyone hear the Viet Vet Brian Wilson on "Democracy Now, " decrying all of Kerry's stupid votes. I find it hard to defend, I must admit. Coming from a safe state Kerry's voting record is hardly perfect. In fact, Kerry has defended the Patriot act shortly before announcing for the Presidency.
Trade, weapons systems, Patriot Act,Media consolidations. I say Nader will have ample foder to make Kerry look foolish. Some say it will be good for Kerry, to have Nader to have to answer too. If not, I fear how far Kerry will go to the right should there be no one to counter balance his inclinations. I will try to defend a Kerry vote against Naders' on slaught, but it will not be easy.
The Viet Vet who lost his legs to a train 30 years ago, was very disappointed in Kerry's stupid votes...Pretty pitiful when the candidate has to say, I was hoodwinked. Even the voters of Massachusett's knew better, but not its' Senator.
But then considering how the media treated Dean, Kucinich; I am sure Nader will all but be blacklisted by our corporate controlled media, which has some kind of subliminal hold upon the American mind.

[gauguin57]

23. sigh

And to think that, during the '70s and '80s, I was a front-row groupie at Ralphie's speeches. I wanted to have his baby!

Ralph, Ralph, Ralph. The love affair is long over. Keep your sorry ass off the campaign trail, and give the Democrats the maximum shot at repairing the massive damage this administration has done to this country.

I'm so disappointed in you, Ralph.

[mhr]

24. It It Teaches The Party To Get Rid Of The DLC, I Say RUN RALPH RUN!

eom

[Zero Gravitas]

27. It won't

all it will do is give Bush* another four years and make the DLC think the party need to move further to the RIGHT. I'm no tin-hatter but I am begining to think that Nader and his supporters are pro-Bush. There is no other explanation for this loser wanting to run again in 2004.

EDIT: the DLC will move further to the RIGHT, not left if a Nader run leads to Bush winning again.

[mhr]

30. One Would Disagree, The DLC Is The Reason The Republicans Keep Winning

eom

[mobuto]

36. No, the reason the Republicans keep winning

is because liberals don't vote Democratic.

That's madness.

There are only two parties in the United States: one is progressive, and the other is medieval. Your choice.

[mhr]

40. Sadly Not True, Two Parties, Republican And Republican Light

Been that way for years!

Why do you think the DLC torpedoed Dean?

[mobuto]

48. You're joking!

Why do you think the DLC torpedoed Dean?

The DLC didn't torpedo Dean. The voters of Iowa and New Hampshire torpedoed Dean. No candidate has been more associated with the DLC than Al Gore. And guess who he backed? Yup, Howard Dean.

Sadly Not True, Two Parties, Republican And Republican Light

If that's your position, then you're nuts: you're making the best the enemy of the good. Just look back on what's happened to America these last three years and tell me there isn't a meaningful difference between Democrats and Republicans. One party provides tax cuts to millionaires, the other works to provide universal health care. One party sends our troops half-way around the world without cause to wage unnecessary wars, the other works within the international community.

Its your call: Do you want four more years of George W. Bush?

[Deaner1971]

49. Spare me the poor Dean conspiracy

Why is it that SOME Dean supporters can't accept that he had early success that seemed over-blown due to a vocal minority? The guy lost, plain and simple. He is a good man and was a very good governor but, he didn't appeal to the people outside his initial supporters.

I would say the media had a lot more to do with his collapse than some great conspiracy.

[mhr]

56. All The Editorials Agree, The DLC Sent Him Packing

I will never know the truth as a little guy.

The theory seems to fit the facts.

[mobuto]

69. How?

The man spent an astounding $40 million in Iowa and came third, despite the endorsement of the state's most popular politician.

Unless Iowa Democrats are taking bribes from the DLC, explain what happened.

[Deaner1971]

78. The facts?

Why can't you accept that the majority of people poled so far, do not choose Dean as our candidate? I was a Clark backer but, I accept that the majority of my party did not choose to back him. Maybe it was critical mass on Kerry's part like Clinton started with his win in New Hampshire. Either way, the people have spoken.

If you don't like the DLC, work to change things from inside our party. You don't try to bankrupt your company because you don't like the boss. You work to change things. Putting Americans out of work and soldiers in harm's way, by re-electing George Bush, seems like a really selfish way to change your party's leadership.

[northzax]

87. give it a rest

or get it out of your system. Dean lost. sucks for him, and for you, I suppose, but he lost. the DLC didn't tell me who to vote for, and I didn't vote for Dean for reasons that have been hashed over too many times.

And, let's remember which candidate was the head of the DLC in the late 90's? right. Joe Lieberman. and he did how well?

There was no grand conspiracy, Dean just wasn't able to convince the voters of Iowa, New Hampshire, Delaware, Virginia, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Washington, Wisconsin and South Carolina to vote for him. That there is a pretty wide stretch of the country that he was unable to win in. Take a fucking hint.

[Zero Gravitas]

57. Disagree

Its spineless candidates/leadership that lets the Republicans win. And I do blame Nader for putting us in a position where th GOP was able to steal the 2000 elections. Last time the Nader voters had an excuse, this time they do not.

The choice is Kerry or Bush, voting for Nader will accomplish NOTHING except handing the election to Bush. The only message it sends is that Nader supporters are mental masturbators who care more about being ideologically pure than they do about effecting change. And incremental change is better than no change at all. Nader is the ultimate Status Quo candidate.

[mhr]

65. Can't Support Kerry - He Voted For The War And The Patriot Act

He has become a sellout.

Sad but true!

[Zero Gravitas]

68. Why not donate $ to Bush-Cheney 2004

while you're at it?

An how iwll voting for Bush help get rid of the PA? At least if/when (I hope despite people like you) Kerry is elected John Ashcroft will no longer be A.G.

[Ruby Romaine]

72. Bush lied not Kerry

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2003_0915.html

Speaking Sunday on Face the Nation, Senator John Kerry declared that the American people are paying the price for the reckless way in which the Administration approached the conflict in Iraq. "The President promised he would go to war as a last result. He didn't. The President promised he would build a coalition and work through the United Nations. He didn't." Kerry then said that what started out as a failure of diplomacy before the war has become a failure of leadership in its aftermath. In order to correct the Administration's errors and set the country on the path to winning the peace, Kerry proposed a four point plan for reconstructing Iraq.

[w13rd0]

83. Why believe a known liar?

I didn't believe Bush, why did Kerry?

[mobuto]

85. Because Kerry wasn't in the position to disbelieve him

Kerry didn't have access to the intelligence documents, he couldn't see that the information was unreliable and extraordinarily suspect. He didn't have to believe Bush, but he wasn't in a position to question the CIA, the State Department, etc.

What's important is that if Kerry had been President, we would not have attacked Iraq. That much is as clear as anything can possibly be.

So again, the choice is this: do you want Bush to have a second term or not?

[w13rd0]

108. I'm just talking about character judgement...

...Bush is a liar and a fraud. Why believe anything he says?

[mobuto]

115. I'm talking about character judgement as well

If Kerry isn't your choice in the primary, that's fine.

But on election day, and the choice is between Bush's character and Kerry's character, who are you going to choose?

Because that's the choice. And if you don't vote for Kerry (assuming he's the nominee) then you'll be helping Bush get reelected.

[w13rd0]

137. Tell you what...

...I'll do my part. I'll work to supress Republican turnout, and I'll labour to turn Republicans against Bush. What happens from that point is on your head, and the head of the DNC and the DLC. Want to win, sell your candidate, relying solely upon my dislike of Bush just ain't gonna do it. If I go to a car lot, and the dealer shows me a shitty death trap of a car, and a car that weaves all over the road and often doesn't start without massive amounts of the most expensive gasoline with pork oil extracts...I'm gonna go to another dealership. Or maybe I'll just ride my bike.

[mobuto]

138. Except that metaphor don't cut it

Riding your bike is a viable option to owning a car. But Nader is not a viable option to George Bush. He just isn't in the running.

Want to win, sell your candidate, relying solely upon my dislike of Bush just ain't gonna do it.

Oh? Why not? You don't defeat Bush by "supress{ing} Republican turnout," you defeat Bush by making sure a candidate gets more votes than him. The best way to do that is to vote for that candidate.

Except there's no way Nader will get more votes than Bush anywhere, so you're left with whoever the Democratic nominee will be. Take it or leave it. This has everything to do with your dislike for Bush: either you like him or you don't.

[Castilleja]

117. Bingo! w13rd0

:thumbsup:

[dawn]

136. So you'd rather have 4 more years of Bush?

I don't understand that logic.

[Claire Beth]

148. Nader SUCKS! n/t

[w13rd0]

80. You might be right...

...Kerry will lose, and the DLC will blame it on Dean and Nader, and move further to the right. In 2008, Dr. Frist (mr. white people beget white people himself) will run, or some other RW freak, and the DLC will go chasing after him. The media will dutifully report that the American people loved the 2nd Bush term, and he's now more popular than Reagan and Jesus, and Democrats and Republicans will believe every word of it, because prominent Democrats said nothing as media was consolidated down to 2 companies controlling everything we see, hear and read (those that bother reading). namely the Channel 24 Corporation, and the Zaibatsu Corporation. there will be differences between these two channels, but not "drastic differences" in their vision of reality and the future.

Or scenario #2: Kerry wins, and the DLC moves further to the right, since it was Kerry's "run for the middle" that "won" him the election. In 2008, Dr. Frist runs against an unpopular incumbent, beset by scandal, dutifully reported by Channel 24 outlets and Zaibatsu outlets, and the DLC advocates further moves to the right to "head them off at the pass". In a stunning gesture, Kerry passes PATRIOT ACT III, appoints Son of Scalia to the US Supreme Court, and begins rapid development of pervasive, invasive Homeland Security measures to fatten up his "have no fear, I'm a war hero" pitch for a second term. the end result is that there are differences, but not "drastic differences" in their vision of reality and the future.

[mobuto]

86. Fine, the DLC goes to the right - who cares?

Democrats as a whole have been going further to the LEFT every election since 1996. At every level.

And Gore ran to the left of Clinton, Kerry's considerably to the left of Gore.

Or scenario #2: Kerry wins, and the DLC moves further to the right, since it was Kerry's "run for the middle" that "won" him the election.

All politicians run for the middle before a general election. That's the way its done.

[Deere_John]

90. Scenario #3

Bush wins, the Republicans increase their margins in the House and Senate, and Bush, Delay, Hastert, and Frist use their undisputed control to crush the Democratic Party. That'll take care of that nasty old DLC.

[mobuto]

35. Which is worse? The DLC or George W. Bush?

If elected, John Kerry would be the most liberal politician to hold the office since Lyndon Johnson. Its your choice: a liberal or George Bush.

[Sterling]

119. "Kerry would be the most liberal politician"

Not sure I agree on that one. I am interested
as to why you would think that?

[mobuto]

122. Why?

1. Against the death penalty for ordinary crimes
2. Strongly supports gay rights, voted against defense of marriage act (which Clinton signed)
3. Has consistently opposed Pentagon largess.
4. Was against the first Gulf War.
5. Strongly supports gun control.
6. The strongest record of any sitting Senator on the environment.
7. Let the opposition to US involvement in Central America in the 80s
8. Opposed Bush's tax cuts, Reagan's tax cuts on the floor of the US Senate.
9. Led congressional efforts to increase AIDS funding.

Need more?

John Kerry has an American Conservative Union rating of 5.

[Caution]

21. screw him

no one who intends to vote for buhs will vote for him meaning he only takes votes away from the dem. Yet nader claims to be a liberal environmentalist yet here he goes, knowingly helping the worst environmental and most conservative president this country has seen. I have now lost all respect for him.

[surfermaw]

25. Think about it

When he, Nadar, was claiming to be so liberal, he was pushing the democrat party farther to the left than the moderate like therefore they voted republican.

[Zero Gravitas]

22. Vote Bush-Nader 2004

After all there is no real difference between voting for one and voting for the other.

Thanks for nothing Ralph you ego-maniacal loser. I just hope that there will be far fewer people delusional enough to vote for him this time round.

[Nashyra]

26. Screw him

you can bet the media will not let it die. He will get press coverage, he is an egotistical maniac. I don't think 3/4 of the people who voted for him on 2000 will vote for him in 04. He should be ignored. A vote for Nader is a vote for * no matter how you cut the pie. If we want change we have to be in position to make the changes. Letting the * stay in the wh 4 more years doea nothing for the cause.

[mobuto]

29. Nader's an utter fraud

he's personally an asshole, that's clear. He's run on the green party ticket, yet he's against environmental laws. He claims to be a great liberal, and yet he's been caught violating employment laws in his own groups and busting the union his employees were trying to form. The man is a twisted hypocrite who seems only to want to get Mr. Bush reelected.

Why?

[Columbia]

31. NOOOOO!!!!!!

Story is up now:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112049,00.html

[Pale Blue Dot]

32. He will be no factor this time

The turnout at the primaries proves it. Most intelligent Democrats see that the goal this time is to get Bush out of office.

I daresay that at least half of the Dems. who voted for Nader last time had no idea what these past four years would be like.

There is nothing to fear here.

[mhr]

37. If Dennis Does Not Get The Nomination, I'll Vote For Ralph!

I am tired of the democratic party as republican light!

You want change, you have to stand on principles.

'nuff said.

[Pale Blue Dot]

41. You have every right to do so.

This time, it won't matter.

If you are one of the few Liberals who believe that we are actually no worse off with Bush in office than we would have been with Gore, then God bless you.

This time, you will be irrelevant.

[mhr]

61. In Texas, I Was Irrelevant Last Time, Texas Will Elect Bush Regardless

eom

[mobuto]

71. You are irrelevent now

especially if you vote for Nader.

But Texas can go Democratic. There are lots of Dems in Texas. Make Bush work for it.

[mndemocrat_29]

123. Thank you

This is such an excellent point. Yes, it will be difficult for the Democrats to win Texas, but it isn't impossible. The state went 40 percent Gore/Nader in 2000. Add in Tom DeLay and the bad economy, the state could increase that. Can you imagine what the media would do if Texas was within the margin of error? Can you imagine the energy of all those anti-Bush voters who would be getting out the vote. Bush can be beat in 2004, but not if everyone just gives up. In 2002, I went out and drafted nine voters who had never voted before. If all DUers could do this (come on, we all know nine people who don't vote) we'd have something like 350,000 new voters.

[Deaner1971]

74. Then why do you care who the Dems put up?

If your vote doesn't count (I think it does but, we'll go with your premise) how much more would your vote count with Dean on the ticket?

If you say Texas is lost no matter what, why do you care who the party puts on the ticket.

Here in Ohio my vote is crucial, as is the vote of every Dem and Independent. I refuse to accept that any vote is meaningless.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mobuto]

51. Four more years, four more years!

You want change, you have to stand on principles.

What principles would they be? John Kerry would be more liberal than any President since Johnson. And yet he doesn't stand on principles? What are you talking about?

[Deaner1971]

54. Why not just save yourself the time and effort and vote for Bush?

Same net effect.

[Ruby Romaine]

60. Can you feed your family on principles?

i'm making less money than 4 years ago/ family members are unemployed-- thanks
to Naderbush.

[mhr]

63. Single, No Dependents, I'll Survive One Way Or Another

eom

[Ruby Romaine]

73. You meant to say Selfish, No Dependents, I'll Survive One Way Or Another

politics=all about compromise-
no candidate is going to have the exact same views I have-
but this country can't take 4 more years of *

[prolesunited]

88. Glad you're all set

Fuck the rest of us, huh?

Shame that once the nominee is chosen you won't be able to campaign for Nader on DU.

I'm not saying that you don't have some valid points. HOWEVER, there will be NO democracy or country left if these fascists get another four years. Look at all the damage they have done when they are thinking they have to stand up for re-election. Can you imagine what they could do given another four years.

You can't leap from point A to point Z. The type of transformational change that is needed in this country will not take place overnight nor will electing one man accomplish the goal.

You obviously have your mind made up. I certainly hope your fellow absolutists and purists learned a lesson from the last time.

[progressiverealist]

110. spoken like the true republican you are.

I've got mine and screw the rest of you huh?

I can see why you're voting Bush by proxy.

[PassingFair]

127. Your points are valid, mhr

I, too, believe that Kerry is compromised. I, too, believe that he is a corporate tool.
That said, if I have to live another four years with the religious right calling the shots domestically, I'll pack up and leave. Kerry is not my choice for real change in the system, but he will probably stop all the "faith-based" crap, and he's solidly pro-choice. He'll probably halt the appointments of wacko judges and raise the minimum wage. We'll continue to get fleeced, but we'll probably get the government out of our bedrooms.
This will be another election where I'll hold my nose and vote for the (considerably) lesser of two evils.
Let's get the mf out of the White House, and clean up our own corridors afterwards. Stay tuned to the DeanforAmerica web site, as I believe there will be work for us to do soon.

[koopie57]

145. well good for you,

all alone and totally defeated in your thinking. Fine. As you like it but it might be good to try to think of those who are struggling under this administration and four more years just might be the end of the line for them. If surviving is all you ask for, you certainly have received your wish.

[MaineDem]

101. And voting for Nader will do what?

Nevermind, I'm too angry to read anymore of this thread.

[Democat]

114. Then why not close your DU account and move on?

You are no better than a Republican if you want to help Bush win.

[foo_bar]

46. he's running as an independent?

or is that Fox's word for all third parties? If he's indy he won't get on the ballot anywhere but NY/WA/CA.

[bagnana]

47. I hate him.

I just hope he is marginalized by the press -- otherwise he will spend the next 7 months talking down Kerry but barely mentioning Bush. YOU JUST WAIT! that's exactly what he did last election. Talked down Gore and virtually ignored Bush. Last thing we need is someone sapping the energy and resolve of our newly revitalized party. I've had it. People who would vote for him now, after the last three years, amaze and disgust me. If they can't see a difference between Bush and Kerry or want to punish the world because of the DLC's political compromises, then they are really just myopic selfish jerks who don't truly care about their fellow men.

[yellowcanine]

39. I actually don't think this would hurt Kerry

I think Nader would be less than an * this time around. Only reason he was able to do anything last time is because he was on the Green ticket and this time he won't be. Furthermore I have a suspician that many Greens have some chagrin over the thought that they may have helped put Shrub in office, given the way he has gone out of his way to trash the environmental advances of Clinton. This may motivate them to vote for the most likely person to beat Bush this time around.

[nolabels]

82. This as much as any is one for being ABB

Some one should start a website, group , movement or anything to suck the last gasp our of this guy. "GREENS AGAINST BUSH". As much as anything the guy was totally off base in his claims about "no difference" and time has has borne that out.

Go away Ralph, were on to you already

[janx]

42. This is a surprise? Good grief!

He had announced as much earlier.

When the DLC picks a candidate, Nader jumps like a frog to a lilypad.

I am no Nader fan and was appalled at all of the people who voted him last time--they didn't know how bad Chimpy really was.

This time, it's different. This was expected. It was obvious that he would do this!

Please don't pretend to be surprised by this.

[Whoa_Nelly]

44. Check out this strange site re: Nader 2004 accepting organ donations

Very strange...
From the site:

Donate to the Nader 2004 Presidential Exploratory Committee
The Nader 2004 Campaign is currently not accepting financial donations. However, we are accepting organ donations from anybody who would like to help. Organs must be in good working condition and must come from live hosts, not cadavers. Drug and/or alchohol abusers are encouraged to donate. Organ harvest teams will contact you after you make your pledge.

more to see here:
http://www.nadirexplore04.org/donate.html

And the home page states:

Paid for by CheneyBush04 Re-election Committee, Inc.
PO Box 666, Washington, DC 20036
[e-mail]

http://www.nadirexplore04.org/index.html

[Kolesar]

58. Listen! I can't give it to you now. It says, 'in the event of death'

"No one who has ever had their liver taken out by us has survived."

[scarface2004]

50. yawn....

now if zippy the pinhead throws his 'hat' in ring-then you got something!!

[truthisfreedom]

53. i think this is a non-issue.

i kinda like ralph, but i won't be voting for him. he may bring out a few fringe voters but he's not going to bring down the Democratic numbers by much.

[bluedog]

64. nader

really the bush light....is the GOP going to fund his campaign ads as they did in 2000? Never forget 2000!!!!

[mobuto]

76. They're already funding Sharpton

Sharpton's campaign manager is a Republican operative, and the GOP is paying Sharpton's campaign expenses.

What's to suggest they won't do the same for Nader?

[PassingFair]

128. Big Idea!

Many republicans are knee-jerk dummies.
Let's start a meme that they should be voting for Nader to skew the election. By the time they figure out that this makes no sense whatsoever, it'll be too late!
Who's with me?!

[devilgrrl]

77. And what has Mr. Nader done for us lately????

Nothing that I can recall? All the power to you Mr. Nader you won't get my vote this time either.

[messiah]

79. If it is true then

:headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang:

[Rowdyboy]

89. Hey, everyone...Wave to the stupid Freepers.....

They've linked to this thread and are tsk-tsk-tsking over our naughty language. Its not enough they want into our bedrooms, now they are APPALLED, I tell you APPALLED, by the "F" word.

And hear I heard it for the first time as a young lad from Richard Nixon's tapes!

Hi, you dimwitted fascists :puke: from a good Mississippi boy!

[VolcanoJen]

91. Fox News Link - Official Announcement on 'Meet the Press'

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112049,00.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

92. Here's the article:

Nader to Jump in Presidential Race

Friday, February 20, 2004

By Liza Porteus



NEW YORK — Ralph Nader, the consumer advocate who ran for president in 2000 as a Green Party candidate, will enter the 2004 race for the White House as an independent candidate, advisers told Fox News on Friday.

A formal announcement by Nader is expected this weekend.

"He's going to be discussing his role in the presidential election," Linda Schade, a spokeswoman for Nader's presidential exploratory committee, said of the man whose 2000 run is blamed by many Democrats for tilting a close election in favor of George W. Bush (search). "He's felt there is a role for an independent candidate to play."

The relationship between Nader and the Green Party (search) has not been smooth in recent years. Money and ballot access continue to be Nader's main concerns as he's mulled a run this year.

more: http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,112049,00.html

[flaminbats]

102. Strange how Edwards didn't support proposed Kerry-Dean debates earlier...

The more I follow Edwards, the more convinced I am that he is a self-serving slime.

Kerry still has a shot of winning my vote on Super Tuesday, if he keeps his word of only participating in debates that Kucinich and Sharpton are included!

But when will the Nader bashing ever end? This reminds me of the neo-conservative Clinton bashing, which turned me off completely to Republicans in the nineties. One doesn't have to support Nader to become disgusted by this.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flaminbats]

126. I would of voted for him too.

But one political saint can't be more evil than another political saint..but at least they're popular in Lousiana...:hurts: ok, bad joke.

[KamaAina]

93. Nader: Unsafe On Any Ballot

Why? WHY? It's not on behalf of the Greens (if it ever was). Is it just that he misses the limelight? Not good enough. Let him be Dennis Miller's replacement or something.

What really sucks is, Nader, who is of Lebanese descent, drew many Arab-American votes in 2000, presumably away from Bush*. Now, of course, Bush* has succeeded in driving those votes away from himself, so Nader's presence could conceivably be even more damging than before.

[Orangepeel]

95. Looking for the silver lining...

Nader being in the race will make our candidate LOOK less liberal. Ideally, Nader will get very few votes from real progressives but will allow voters in the mushy middle to tell themselves that the Democratic nominee is the moderate in the race.

So, sue me. I'm an optimist.

[Barkley]

96. Will the Greens run a presidential candidate too?

[TrueStory]

97. Latest Fox News/Opinion Dynamics Poll

"A poll by Marist College's Institute for Public Opinion shows that Kerry is leading Edwards 66 percent to 14 percent; 10 percent were undecided.

The Public Policy Institute of California found that Democrats there favor Kerry with 55 percent of the vote, while Edwards has 10 percent.

According to the Fox poll, when asked who would do a better job as a wartime president, 50 percent said Bush, while 38 percent said Kerry. Kerry beat Bush when it came to who voters thought would handle the economy better, 47 percent to 40 percent.

With Nader now in the race, 43 percent said they would vote for Bush if the election was held today, 42 percent for Kerry and 4 percent for Nader.
"

more on:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112036,00.html

[TrueStory]

98. The Solution for the Problem

Another presidential runner who is more RW than Bush.

[bagnana]

130. that poll is b.s.

Nader didn't even get 4% in the last election. Fox is trying to sell us that he has grown more popular since then? That is bull. Fox trying to soe discontent and anger and fracture the democratic surge going on right now? You bet! What manipulative lying asses.

[Demobrat]

99. Good for him.

He's got a right to run, and Bush will cream Kerry anyway, so what the heck, why not make his point?

[Deaner1971]

100. Ahhh

Another fresh breeze for the Right Wing. Did someone leave a window open?

Thanks for telling us the outcome of the election ahead of time. I guess the rest of us can quit now.

[Demobrat]

103. You're very welcome.

:)

[sallydallas124]

104. Good lord

What's with this guy?
I can't figure out if he's in the repuke's back pocket, has an ego big as the hills, has a pathological hatred for the democratic party, or if he's just sadly uninformed regarding the * admin's track record?
Anyone willing to vote for him is clearly not up to speed politically.

[Scairp]

105. Raspberries to him

Nadar has an ego the size of Texas and doesn't really care about this country at all.

[union_maid]

106. Not to mention people

Nader cares about issues. He doesn't give a shit about people who are affected by reality.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

107. To mhr

Dear Mhr:

I have a serious problem with the fact that you have said not once, but twice on this thread that because you are in TX, your vote is irrelevant.

I am in Texas, too. There are TONS of Dems and Independents and even Republicans here who are NOT voting for bush in November. Every day I see the worm turning more and more.

Maybe PART of the reason Texas is red is because us blues rolled over and died.

I agree with whomever keeps telling you to make him WORK for every vote in TX. I heard someone on Fux News (GAG), I think it was Scarborough, saying if he were advising bush, he'd tell him to concentrate on swing states like Pennsylvania and don't "waste a penny or any time in the south, where he's bound to win, anyway".

I LOVED HEARING THAT!!! I hope to GOD that really is their strategy. They have NO IDEA how pissed off we are here.

I work voter registration tables. That is my life right now until as close to November as I can get by law. I am registering voters right and left, making it my mission to get out the vote for the Dems.

Don't write off your vote because it is in Texas. THAT, my friend, is a mistake.

Fellow Texas Dem of many generations....

[pinto]

118. my bro's a Tex independent, won't vote for Bush 'cause he's "a crook and

a liar", feels he went to get Saddam for Daddy, doesn't begrudge the feeling so much but says "get real, get him out". I don't think it's over in Texas, either.

[snippy]

109. Nader will have very little, if any, impact on the election.

Nearly every election involving an incumbent is a referendum on the incumbent. This election will be no different. It definitely will be a referendum on Bush. Nader's vote totals will be insignificant.

Since 9/11 Bush has convinced millions of Americans that he is an incompetent liar. Between now and November Bush will continue to lie at every opportunity about every subject on which he speaks. Between now and November, Bush will continue to demonstrate his incompetence. Between now and November Bush will continue to demonstrate his Fecal Midas Touch. If the trend since 9/11 continues, Bush will lose badly. If the trend reverses, Bush will win easily. Nader will not be a factor.

[progressiverealist]

111. go to HELL Ralph Nader

I wish I could just punch Ralphie in his ugly face.

[pinto]

121. my answer is simple, in a national election, we need to vote in the

NATIONAL interest. I feel a Democratic leader will best serve the nation. I have no second thoughts about this at all...

[ramapo]

131. Only a moran

would vote for Nader in 2004. What does he hope to prove this time? I agreed with many of his points in 2000 but wouldn't vote for him because of the chance that it might throw the election.


Guess what...Nader threw the election. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice fool on me,

[Endangered Specie]

132. And I was having such a good day today

[RememberWellstone]

133. Not again?

Oh Geeeeeezuz! Why, oh why do you we shoot ourselves in the foot? Bush runs over McCain in their primary..and McCain still gets in the Pug line. What do "our" Democrats do? Still run for absolutely NO reason!! Get a grip Nader raiders..we need to win an election in order to govern. DUH!! Will someone please call this dinosaur and tell him it's over already. Geezuz.

[Thrill]

134. This is HORRIBLE.

This is just HORRIBLE. What the heck is this guy Nadar's problem. WTF would you get into this race AGAIN. Seriously someone needs to look and see if he's on Bush's payroll. Anyway to get McCain to run as an independent?

[dawn]

135. He won't do any damage...

Most people are ABB. I don't think (most) people will be misled this time.

[Tank in Texas]

139. Damage Can Be Relative

That really depends. He did just enough damage in 2000 that we lost some states we shouldn't have. If we get a candidate like Kerry that won't play everywhere and won't pull crossover he will hurt us.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

140. He's not going to have the following as in 2000

now that everybody is scared shitless of the Bush administration, but w/luck, Nader will be allowed on the debate stage to help key in on the issues that we need to be concerned about. Sharpton and Kucinich should be allowed as well. Get it all out there.

Then, ideally, Nader should drop out at the last minute.

[hedgetrimmer]

141. The Dems want my vote, ok then I want Kerry out & Kucinich in.

ABB right... Kucinich is ABB, so is Nader... don't give me Kerry, abb remember... anybody but bush means anybody but bush... I will not cast a vote for bush, my vote will be for ABB, there are a lot of contenders in that field... ABB do not give me Kerry as a choice...

[mobuto]

142. Dennis Kucinich will support the Democratic nominee

He's promised to do so.

Why? Because he understands that beating Bush is our only priority.

Won't you do the same?

[hedgetrimmer]

144. I will vote ABB.

There are a whole lot of contenders in that field. After the Democrat National Convention I will look at all the possibilities of ABB and then make my selection... Kucinich does understand beating Bush is A priority but not the only... The Dems want my vote, then give me a Democrat candidate...

Just because a donkey is next to someones name does not mean he/she is a Democrat more than in name only...If the Dems want to pull in the fold of the left then the Dems need to lean left... The repukes leaned right to pull the right into their fold, the Dems are leaning right to pull the whole party right... it does not work... If the Dems want to win then the Dems need to go left to pull the fringe "winning" votes or they go down burning on their own stupidity... ABB do not give me Kerry as an option.... I've nothing more to say about this subject.

[w4rma]

143. Blasted egocentric fool. (n/t)

[Saturninus]

146. Okay: I'm a Republican, and I'm Not Positive I Believe This Yet

Nader Thoughts

I’m not 100% convinced Nader intends to run. Not at all. Although this situation is superficially analogous to AS (Arnold Schwarzenegger) in CA and the Leno show appearance, it’s different at its core because of the difference between the two men. While I’d say that both men deserve as their theme song, from vastly different angles, Sinatra doing “My Way,” I’ll give the top prize to Nader.

Nader isn’t going to NOT run because the Dems tell him not to. He’s also not going to RUN because the Dems tell him not to. Nader is a cantankerous true maverick who’ll do what he wants, he’s pushing 70, and I’ve never seen him respond to threats in his entire political/activist career. Frankly, Nader is just too unpredictable. I could NOT see AS setting up a Leno appearance a week in advance, creating this tension of build-up, just to do a “no.” So I was pretty stunned at how stunned the press corps behaved, how seemingly taken by surprise they were, by his decision to run in CA. I think they may be a bit wary of being burnt and looking stupid again on this kind of call, but I also think they’re jumping the gun. I could easily see Nader setting up a Meet the Press appearance to say no and do a GW Bush bashathon (and fellow republicans, you gonna hear some MAJOR Bush-bashing from Nader tomorrow, be certain!) and a Kerry endorsement. I have zero doubt the DNC offered him a chance to be a major player and absolutely an opportunity to address the Dem convention.

Also, I’m fairly sure I see the outlines of a Dem disinformation campaign: I’m pretty sure the doctored Kerry and Fond photo was put out by the Dems to obscure the political significance of the real photo (the story of the photo’s origin is MONDO fishy), to create an attack talking point and “cancel out” the other photo; I think these “Note” pieces, while interesting as specimens of unwitting truth-telling (that is, the writers of these pieces think they’re lying when for the first time telling the truth!), have been designed primarily as ways to embarass conservative thought weblogs. So I’m extremely wary of “leaks” or word from "advisers" that confirm Nader is running.

Oh, by the way, it doesn’t matter at all if Nader runs or not, Dems; it really doesn’t. It’s over, you’ve lost already. However, even if it DID matter, you have no right to cry “foul” (although you certainly may be upset if you wish) after what Perot did FOR you, twice.

But I’m serious—don’t blame Nader when you lose, if he does run. It won’t be his fault; you’ll see that when you don’t have that early VNS Florida call for Gore working for you (possibly THE dirtiest trick every played in electoral politics in my lifetime).

Anyway, I would have to waggle my hand on this one and not make any kind of firm prediction. 3:2 odds in favor of Nader running, at best, and I don’t put money down on those kinds of odds. By the way, I DID bet money on the Schwarzenegger decision; I knew I’d spotted a sure thing. Believe it or not, I got 5-1 odds AGAINST on an Atlantic City line. I’m not a casino gambler or any major better, except for a biweekly “friendly” poker game, the only game I really enjoy, but when I know a SURE thing I bet, and the odds were sweet. $200 got me a grand.

I’ll be betting on GW unless his line is as an odds-on favorite, like 3-5; that’s just not worth betting on, IMO.

Now, you can ban me if you like, although I don't think I'm being mean or a troll and all that. And in fact, I'm offering you hope of sorts, if Nader is your concern. THIS Republican won't be convinced until he sees and hears it from Ralph's own lips.

[Saturninus]

147. Well there is this quote...but even so...I'm not sure I buy it yet

"He's felt there is a role for an independent candidate to play," Linda Schade, a spokeswoman for Nader's presidential exploratory committee.

[Euphen]

149. While the last thing I want is for Bush to be reelected,

it won't be the end of the world. If Kerry is elected the Republicans will without a doubt run even more reactionary candidates in 2008, 2012, and so on, and the Democratic Party will continue its lurch to the right in the name of "electability." I for one won't be scared or intimidated into voting for the "lesser of two evils" for the rest of my life. The kind of perspective behind "Anybody But Bush" is what got us here in the first place.