'Buy American' support builds as sales fall

[DainBramaged]

Source: www.freep.com (Detroit Free Press)

Driving in suburban Detroit a few months back, Tracy Miller, the daughter and granddaughter of autoworkers for domestic companies, grew increasingly angry at all the foreign cars she saw on the road.

On impulse, she took a tablet of paper and scribbled "Buy American -- Support our Economy." She began flashing the sign to drivers of foreign cars.

Once, stopped at a light, the driver of a foreign car rolled down his window and yelled that in America he had the right to buy whatever he wanted. Miller, 39, of Warren and a mother of two, shot back, "If people continue to buy foreign cars, this won't be America for long."

"Buy American" is a revived sentiment these days in Michigan, particularly after lawmakers from states where foreign automakers have operations opposed loans to Detroit automakers. But it's not a simple matter.

"This is 2009," said James Epolito, the outgoing head of the Michigan Economic Development Corp., the quasi-public state agency that recruits firms to Michigan -- including foreign auto firms. "Toyota and Nissan and others, we've done a lot to get them into the state of Michigan, and we certainly don't want any of them to feel unwelcome."



Read more: http://www.freep.com/article/20090118/BUSINESS01/901180447/+Buy+American++support+builds+as+sales+fall

[HereSince1628]

1. Closing the barn door after the horse is out...

I understand the impulse.

[DainBramaged]

2. Many of us have been saying it for years, but no one listened

[tomreedtoon]

80. "Buy Crap Because It's Made in America."

"Support Retarded, Incompetent Executives."
"Dubya Was a Business Jenius."
"Support America, Waste Your Money."

There are lots of bumper sticker slogans that apply.

I would love to buy quality American made products, but they don't exist any more. And the people in charge of the megacorporations want to keep it that way, no matter how much money Congress throws into their laps.

And, you loyal "Make It Here" people, you just try to start a company and employ people to actually manufacture something with value in this country. Before the non-governmental health care kills your profits, if by some miracle Wal-Mart doesn't outsell you with far more affordable Chinese crap, Donald Trump or some other rich cesspool-dweller will buy your business out from under you and outsource it to his totalitarian overlord in Beijing.

There is no point in "buying American," any more than not buying gasoline will make the Saudis drop the price of gas. Maybe it's time you stopped thinking in terms of simplistic bumper sticker slogans and really thought about closing America's borders to foreign trade - incoming and outgoing - and the price that the American people will entail with that decision.

[asthmaticeog]

84. TRUTH.

:thumbsup:

[acmavm]

85. One selling point could be that at least you won't be poisoned or

spontaneously combust if you buy American.

Sounds like a plus to me.

[tomreedtoon]

113. The point is, you usually CAN'T buy American.

Because we don't make anything any more. We have to buy what stores carry, and they only carry what's really being made. Not DainBramaged's fictional "made in USA" goods.

There is no overwhelming reason for the megacorporations to make anything in America any more. If they wanted, they would have brought about universal health care to make the cost of American labor affordable. But they don't want to.

Corporations are like citizens; they're only honest and loyal when you force them to be. It would take Draconian laws that would essentially end all foreign trade, to make these rich bastards start to employ Americans once more.

Take a moment to pity DainBramaged. He wants to be patriotic. He wants us to buy American made goods, as few as there are, and as shoddy as they are. He has to support the people who pay his salary - the same people who are dedicated to ending DainBramaged's job as soon as possible.

[Odin2005]

151. Your pathological cynicism is noted.

First you were pissing in everyone's breakfast in another thread because everyone's so happy and optimistic about Obama. Now this? :eyes:

[tomreedtoon]

226. And your ignorance of the Hell we're in is obvious.

Yes, there is no reason to celebrate Obama's election like all the dopers here. It's time to be solemn and be prepared for the murderous task of restoring America. And I do mean "murderous" because many of us will die in the effort.

And one of the reason is that Americans produce nothing of value any more. We might, but that isn't what the rich and powerful want, so nobody is paid to do it.

You want to be angry at someone, be angry at Donald Trump and his buddies.

[Odin2005]

231. False dichotomy fallacy.

Celebrating Obama's victory doesn't mean ignoring the problem you face.

[alarimer]

271. The pmop and circumstance is a little unseemly considering the crisis we are in.

$150 million or so. That would have fed a lot of people. Note too that big business is paying for most of it, as they did for the Democratic and Republican National Conventions. And of course all the corporate retreads in the soon-to-be cabinet (which is pretty much business as usual for any administration). All of this kind of leaves me feeling sour and cynical.

[tomreedtoon]

273. Thanks for some sanity, alarimer.

You bring up several good points. But what I object to is not the capitol celebration so much as the cocaine-dream quality of some people here. This is not a time to party. This is a time to roll up our sleeves and grit our teeth.

And while I support him, and hope Obama will do what's best for the nation, we need to continue arguing and debating how it should be done. We have to remind the people in power that they are in power for OUR benefit and protection, not that of the guys who bought the fancy bands for the inaugural.

[Belial]

319. nt

[Born Free]

332. It's NOT just the rich and powerful !!

"And one of the reason is that Americans produce nothing of value any more. We might, but that isn't what the rich and powerful want, so nobody is paid to do it"

Almost every American that invests via their retirement funds is looking for the highest return for their money and is more interested in the bottom line than how it happens. This forces the CEO to make decisions to increase that bottom line. As long as people continue to point fingers and blame the rich and not look at their own contributions to the problem it will never be solved. It's easy to blame the individual with a million dollars to invest, but look the other way at the millions people that invest 1 dollar, but both groups are responsible. American workers need to take a close look at what they are doing, small decisions every day can help - you may think that 50 cent candy bar makes no difference, but if millions of other Americans do the same it adds up.

[DainBramaged]

153. What the hell is wrong with you? I hope they crack your ass for the call outs.

[acmavm]

154. We became the great nation we were because of industrialization. NO

nation can survive unless it has something to sell. And that something to sell has to be made in that nation by its citizens.

Go read Will Durant on the Roman Empire. Even the Romans understood that there needed to be some self-enforeced obsolescence in order for the country to survive.

It started with the Pennsylvania steel mills and has continued non-stop until today. Americans have perverted the American dream. Every American wants to be RICH, RICH, RICH! Happy doesn't count. Safe and secure isn't good enough. They want the big bucks. And they're willing to kick their neighbor as they're pulling the fillings out of their mouths as they lay dying.

I'm not gonna go all 60s hippy-dippy here, I do understand that it is not true that 'All You Need is Love'. You need a lot more than that to survive. And that brings me to where it all went wrong. While the message of the 60s was valid, we have to stop and look at our messengers. The ones that led the way were the biggest fakers of them all. As they were telling us the way to spiritual freedom was to let go of our Earthly belongings and cares, our heros were amassing huge personal fortunes selling us their 'philosophy'. It's not that the message was wrong, it wasn't. It was true. The messengers were frauds. (Don't get me wrong, I still love the music. I just realize how insincere those that made it were/are.) When people's eyes opened and they saw that they were left with basically nothing while their idols who they took at their word ended up in mansions, that really jaded my generation and possibly those that followed.

We need to get back on track. Nobody needs a thirty-room mansion. I am not saying go burn out anyone that has one, but we need to stop and rethink everything. We don't need all the 'stuff' we buy. We don't need 90% of the things that 'amuse' us. And people need to stop and think. The true idols aren't the guys telling you that All You Need is Love. The true idols live it quietly. They work hard everyday (if they are lucky enough to have work), they take care of their families, watch out for their friends and neighbors, and recognize that they do have an obligation to work for and take care of the weakest in our world.

[tomreedtoon]

225. acmavm, thanks for some good words and history.

The thing is, to get this nation "back on track" we need more than the bumper sticker slogans other people are slinging. I think we need draconian laws that will make outsourcing and imports far too expensive to be practical for the rich.

"American pride," when it's said by bosses, mean "Work harder and don't strike." We need philosophies like the ones you mention, but we also need hard decisions and legal restrictions to make the rich people do the right thing. Generally, people don't obey the law unless they're punished for disobeying it, and that's especially true of corporations and the rich. As the last few decades have undoubtedly proved.

[Castleman]

220. Like HELL you can't "Buy American!"!!

Lame-ass, it actually takes a little EFFORT. My shoes? Allen Edmonds. Made in Wisconsin. Owned two pairs for the last THREE years. Best shoes I ever owned. Try getting three years out of a pair of Chinese made Nikes. MY work boots? Red Wing. Made in Minnesota. Friggin' things are bulletproof. Had 'em 4 years. My car? Pontiac Sunfire. USA made parts quotient of 96%, and assembled in Lordsburg Ohio. 138,000 miles on it, and the worst thing that happened was a dead battery. My leather jacket? Golden Bear, made in San Francisco. My t-shirt? American Apparel. My socks, Champion, North Carolina. My TV? Olevia, made in Los Angeles. DVD player? Go-Video, USA made. My microwave? Sharp, USA made! All my appliances? USA made Frigidaire and Roper. My tools? Craftsman. USA made, and better quality and guarantee than any other tool on the market. My guitar? Rickenbacker. (True, it's a 1966, but hey) Oh yeah, if you only shop at WalMart, it's tough to find American made, if you actually put a little effort into it, you CAN find just about anything. There's this thing called Google. Works well. Yep, it's a global economy, and there's some things that we simply can't compete on a realistic level, and I'm OK with Chinese made kid's meal toys, various small electronics gizmos, and other useless crap. Don't put up with it, DEMAND better, tell the manufacturer that you WON'T BUY THEIR CHEAP ASS IMPORTS. I know over 300 people that will never again buy anything from Hershey's because they shuttered their Oakdale, CA plant to move it to Mexico. 300+ people, and how much candy and chocolate do you think they bought over Halloween, Christmas and Valentine's Day? We did, however, buy LOTS of Ghirardelli, Annabelle, and tons of locally made candy, which is everywhere (hell, Seattle has 5 or 6 good local shops). You get that going NATIONWIDE? You'd see Hershey reopen that plant faster than you can blink. By MYSELF, I got a company to change their product line, when I moved up to Seattle, I wasn't used to snow, so I bought some stuff to deal with it, and one company had a mix of about 50/50 USA made vs. Chinese made products. I called 'em up, told them I wanted to see MORE American made, because I refused to buy the Chinese made. I told them why, they listened. When the display of products went up next fall, it was about 75% USA, and 25% Chinese. I pointed it out to all my friends, hell, I pointed it out to total strangers at the store, and they bought AMERICAN. It's called having principals, ethics, and the guts to do without if I have to. The pussies who whine and say they can't find stuff, they're just really fucking lazy. They're the ones who don't deserve the jobs we have left.

You know what I want to see? Some fucking creative vandalism. You see every fucking Lexus' windshield getting taken out with a bat and spray painted "TRAITOR TO THE USA!", and then when they fix it, you do it again, and pretty soon, people with stop buying the damn things. You see some prick wearing his Tommy Hilfiger red, white and blue Chinese made shit, you punch him in the face 10 or 15 times, rip it off of him, call him a traitor, and kick him in the nuts and tell him to buy American Apparel next time, or he'll get it worse. Smash everything in Abercrombie and Fitch, and then stomp the CEO's face until he gets the message that you want to see USA made clothing in their stores. You'll see those mills getting back into business really fast, I'll tell you. You work near a port? Torch a few dozen shipping containers from China, then go to the corporate headquarters of the company selling the crap, and beat the shit out of every executive in the place, and tell them to make USA or else you'll be back. Shit, that'll spark the economy all on it's lonesome, as they'll need workers to fix all the damage, and that'd be AMERICAN workers.

Believe you me, they'll get the message sooner or later. There's 299 million of us, and if we're united, we can make damn sure the one million who own most of the wealth in this country will do things the right way. We gotta be united though. That's the problem though, aint it? "Moi? Do without? Take a personal risk? Take an actual stand?" Most of us don't have the guts to do what needs to be done. It's easy to blame the CEO's and executives, try blaming YOURSELF FOR BUYING THE CHEAP SHIT IN THE FIRST PLACE AND NOT DEMANDING BETTER. This situation is YOUR fault, not mine, but if you want to fix it, I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone to make a stand for America.

[tomreedtoon]

223. First of all, Castleman, learn to write paragraphs!

Second, why don't YOU go around smashing foreign car windshields? See how popular that makes you with the public, the police, and your future cellmate and dance partner Bubba.

The real traitors to America are people like Donald Trump, the CEO's of GM and Anti-Christler, the heirs of Sam Walton and that non-American Rupert Murdoch. You don't want to go up against them, of course. You would rather beat up ordinary citizens for trying to buy something that actually works, instead of Detroit Rust and Chinese Crap.

How about the people who made that stuff our only choice, lunkhead? The rich people? Or are you one of those guys who idolize the bald billionaires who sent our young people off to die in Iraq?

[Name removed]

235. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vadawg]

261. you come up to me and punch me

and you going to see my glock made in austria, i dont think you have thought this through one iota. If you have then you need to be locked up for your own safety.

[llmart]

270. Your posts are idiotic.

I realize that most DU'ers aren't like you, so I'll take some small comfort in that. I would hate to have a newbie read posts like yours and think Democrats are like you.

[JNelson6563]

281. You make some excellent points which, I note, are ignored.

Drop the violence/vandalism parts from your posts and you have a fine example of Buy American advocacy.

Indeed peer pressure (as it were) can be used very effectively on this issue. It needs to be "uncool" to be driving foriegn cars, shopping at Wally World and other such things. Sure you'll always have your sheep running around bleeting the thread-bare nonsense left-over from the 70's (which I suspect many of the anti-American sheep weren't even around for) but those with a clue will catch on. Biy foriegn, hurt American workers and, subsequently, your own pocketbook.

Some people are too short-sighted to see how this literally touches their own lives. They foolishly think they are insulated but they are mistaken.

:toast:

Julie

[Obamanaut]

302. If you were to actually perform all that vandalism and property

destruction you advocate, eventually you will find yourself afoul of the legal system, incarcerated, and making "made in USA" license plates - but at less than minimum wage.

Internet warriors are awesome! :sarcasm:

[ogneopasno]

325. Marry me.

[friendly_iconoclast]

329. I don't think the Al Capone method of persuasion is gonna work...

...the peer pressure part might

[friendly_iconoclast]

330. Ah, the Al Capone school of public relations

You know, the methods you advocate have been used before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Ebens

[PatrynXX]

164. Buy American cars and go broke keeping it working.

Dad figured that out spending god knows what 2-3 times now getting the A/C repaired on his 2001 chevy Venture. Never stays repaired. Speedometer failed a couple years ago. So he swore he'd never buy American cars again. Too expensive to keep running. Now little did he know his dad was going to die in December and that he'd crash the venture. That's still in repair. So he went and got the Saturn Relay (used). Which isn't too bad at the moment. But also went and got a used 2008 Hyundai Sonata and everyone loves that car. Sucker has some kick to it. Very well made car.


When American cars are actually worth the money one spends on them, maybe the buyers will return. Right now we have no choice especially the way the economy is to keep fixing brand new cars.

[Leftest]

201. My previous vehicles were American too, but

My current vehicle (pic below) is a Tundra and it has been so much better and less expensive to maintain than my previous vehicles that there's just no comparisons. Until American made vehicles deliver products of similar quality I am siding with your Dad on this issue.

[tomreedtoon]

222. Thanks for sanity, PatrynXX.

I'm sick of the bumper-sticker politicians insisting that we have to buy crap just because it is "supposedly" made in America. There is no reason to reward a traitorous, outsourcing company like GM, Anti-Christler and Wal-Mart because they use red, white and blue in their ads.

[BobRossi]

203. Misinformed.

America still builds the best there is. Keep buying Chinese shit be happy.

[tomreedtoon]

228. All right, BobRossi. Name ten things.

Name ten products, available in American stores, that are absolutely, positively made in America and are worth the money you pay for them. I'm obviously leaving out cars, since that's the big point of contention.

Appliances? Mexico. Chocolate? Canada. TV shows? Canada. Sheets? Mexico.

It doesn't matter what you list; none of it is made in America any more.

[Castleman]

237. Wrong wrong, wrong.

1. Riccar vacuum cleaners, available at any vacuum cleaner store, it's the Rolls Royce of vacuum cleaners 100% American made.
2. American Apparel shirts, etc. They have their own stores, and 90% of the print to order shirts online can be made with American Apparel shirts. Excellent quality.
3. Allen Edmonds shoes. Superb craftsmanship, made in Wisconsin, and available at any quality department store.
4. Roper Appliances-Home Depot, Lowe's, etc. American made, and cheaper than the Bosch and other junk.
5. Craftsman Tools, their electronic tools are foreign made, but those wrenches, etc are all USA and they last forever. Sears.
6. Rubbermaid. 95% of their line is USA made, and the best in the business.
7. Champion sock and underwear- USA made, good quality, at Target, and usually cheaper than Target's own Merona brand which is foreign made.
8. Ghiarardelli Chocolate. USA made.
9. Apogee Electronics-Music recording hardware, USA made, excellent quality, available at any music store or online
10. Ethan Allen furniture-mostly USA made, and quality you'll find nowhere else. My Mission series desk is incredible. Worth every penny I paid for it, and yeah, it was a lot more pennies than some IKEA pile of crap, but this will last me the rest of my life. I expect my grandkids will still be using this desk in 50 years.
There's more, you just gotta LOOK FOR IT!!!

[blue neen]

241. .

:yourock:

[asthmaticeog]

242. Great post. May I suggest you post it as an OP so it can be K&R'd? nt

[GinaMaria]

256. Great List!

This is exactly what I've been looking for. Would you be interested in starting a thread with this info and creating the opportunity for others to share their 'American products' tips? If I have a list when I'm looking for something, I will know where to start.

[HughBeaumont]

258. Vita-mix blender/food processor. Made in Olmsted Falls, OH.

http://www.vitamix.com/

[DainBramaged]

259. Full list (catagory)

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/index.html

[tomreedtoon]

272. Did you notice how much of your listing is YUPPIE stuff?

Stuff affordable only by the rich? Roper appliances? Never heard of 'em. Ethan freaking Allen? Unaffordable. Ghirardelli Chocolate? Most people eat Hershey, made in Mexico.

My point is, you should not punish consumers for buying what they can afford at real-people stores, not the overpriced mall locations. (God, Ikea. Who the hell buys that? Sauter particle board furniture is what real people use.)

The people who should be punished are the rich, who won't invest their money in American industries and workers. They made the money under the Republicans; make them invest it back in America and American workers.

[Sinistrous]

322. Eleven:

Channelock tools. Premium price but worth it.

[Missy Vixen]

275. Chocolate

Please go to www.franschocolates.com or www.dilettante.com if you'd like to buy chocolates made in America. Plus, they're delicious.

I might also mention www.scharffenberger.com; they are based in San Francisco and are another chocolate manufactured in the USA.

They're a bit more expensive, but well worth it.
Julie

[d_r]

327. the last 10 things I bought made in USA

4 t-shirts, a sweat shirt, 2 cake pans, one griddle, a book, some fish hooks. all are great quality.

[UpInArms]

41. yeppers, everyone get out their new Hummer! or their Exhibitionist

or their Explorer and guzzle up some more soldiers!

:sarcasm: sort of

[Psephos]

208. Or their Saturn or their Focus or all the dozens of other models that don't fit your b.s. n/t

[UpInArms]

238. you're right - it is my "b.s."

I guess I'm just a bit annoyed that the mileage issue has been pushed aside by the engineers and the corporatists that didn't care how much fuel those giant behemoths use/d

I drive old old cars - because our 1988 Subaru stationwagon gets 35 miles per gallon

why is it that only when the foreign car companies work with the US companies - see GEO etal - does the mileage get much much better?

fighting CAFE standards with bullshit "fleet" numbers has been a way of life for these companies

- but, Psephos, you're right - it's my b.s.

peace,

UIA

[Uben]

3. I've never owned a foreign car

I've always bought American because it insures American jobs. But, the damned cars are starting to fall apart! If Detroit wants us to buy American, build the cars better! Pontiacs were a piece of shit...all of them. Mercury cars weren't much better. Why?
Dodge and Plymouth are so-so at best. I've owned at least one of all these cars, so I can speak from experience. The last twenty years, I have stuck with Cadillac and GMC. They have held up well, not one trip to the auto shop! I do have a Dodge pick-up with 130K miles on it. It did well for the first 100K, but now it is falling apart. I keep my vehicles maintenaced regularly and treat them very gentle.

I paid $75 for a ground cable for my pick-up! Seventy-five friggin bucks! You can only get them at the Dodge dealership! This will be my last Dodge for sure! It's this kinda shit that is giving American cars a bad name.

[DainBramaged]

4. (sigh) Thanks for kicking us in the nuts

:eyes:


Yup, here comes the the bullshit, didn't take long.

[Uben]

30. I'm just relating my experience....

..I'll keep on buying American, but one has to be careful of the product they are getting. The way to improve American auto sales is to make the product value oriented. Buying a bucket of bolts for tens of thousands of dollars sucks! BTW, I have worked in an auto assembly plant, so I am not assuming.....I know!

[kegler14]

74. What BS?

The American cars I've owned have been pure crap while the 2 Camrys I've owned have gone more than 200,000 with no major mechanical problems.

[DainBramaged]

76. Good for you, thanks for playing.

That means you haven't owned an American car in over 25 years. I can see through the bullshit, yes I can.

[bertman]

214. DainBramaged, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a

different result. Sounds like Kegler14 was trying to be sane about his auto purchases instead of blindly buying an inferior product because he's "patriotic" or some such baloney.

I have been buying American vehicles for most of my driving life (45 years) except for a period of sports-car fever when I was supporting the German sports car industry. I'm a truck/van guy and have been mostly happy with them, but my friends, wife and step daughters have been buying foreign vehicles because they needed dependable, well-built transportation and couldn't find it in the American models. This is based on bad experiences with American-made autos.

To berate people who make good decisions about their auto purchases is not going to help our domestic auto industry. It's up to Detroit to get this on the right track. When they produce the products that consumers want, they'll sell.

[tomreedtoon]

274. bertman, thanks for your sane response.

You have a legitimate reason for buying American trucks and vans, and your family and friends have legitimate reasons for buying foreign cars.

I've been riding this particular theme for a while, and I'm seeing some patterns: jingoists who want to smash in foreign cars and beat up their owners, union guys who think that lousy American cars are being blamed on them, and flag-waving right-wingers who think anything is an insult to the country.

I think American workers, especially union workers, could build great cars that would be the pride of the world. But corporate CEO's and the rich don't want them to. And that goes for every line of product that used to be made in America, from guitars to Hershey bars (currently "hecho en Mexico").

If the rich weren't cowards, if they actually had pride in this country, they would open the factories and hire workers at fair wages, and challenge the poisonous Chinese crap that everyone sells. But I'm afraid the rich are cowards, and will need a cattle prod to take that patriotic step.

[bertman]

276. well put, tomreedtoon. It's gonna take more than a cattle prod. Unfortunately.

[sendero]

290. My 2 cents....

.... I've always been a bit of a car nut and a shadetree mechanic. I still change the oil on my vehicles in my garage.

I've owned mostly foreign cars in the last 20 years. But, I have also owned a Ford F150 and currently own a Chevy Silverado. Both of these vehicles have served me well. The F150 is the only new vehicle I ever purchased, I drove it 5 years with ZERO problems.

IMHO, Detroit does fine on large cars and pickups and SUVs, not so well on smaller vehicles. I was in the car biz for a time and it's not unfair to say that passenger cars made by the big 3 were, as of the 90s, not of comparable quality to the Japanese cars. They are closer to the Koreans. That is to say, they are not the JUNK they were in the 70s, but not that great either.

The fact is, a large portion, if not most, of the "foreign" cars sold in America are made in America. Lots of the "domestic" cars are nothing but foreign-made parts assembled here. There is really no "patriotism" or "buy American" issue here worth considering.

[SammyWinstonJack]

88. I own a '98 Pontiac Grand Prix w/119k mi. It's not a POS. In fact the only thing too go wrong

in all those miles and just happened recently, the driver side and rear passenger window motors went out. That's it.

OTOH, I owned an Acura Legend with about the same mileage that had EVERYTHING REPLACED except the engine and transmission, which went out right after I traded it in.

Owned a Honda Prelude with under a 100k on it and the water pump went out. I'll stick with American cars.

You think parts for foreign made cars are expensive? :silly:

[1monster]

129. We've driven Chevy's for many years. No problems... Yes, there was

continued maintenance, but that goes with any car.

A Corvette (from the younger child-free years) lasted us seventeen years until we finally traded it, still viable and could have kept for many more years, for a used 1994 Chevy G-20 (my husband really wanted that one). We've had that now for about eight or so years. The biggest problem we had with it was the gas cap cracked (unknown to us) during a very rainy period and loads of water got into the gas tank. The dealer told us the problem was a faulty engine and it needed to be replaced. We put off doing that and found, finally, that it was water in the gas tank. Simple solution: remove gas tank, empty it, allow it to dry, replace gas tank.

I had a 1990 Chevy Astro van (bought used in Feb., 1993). I drove that van until April of last year (had over 200,000 miles on it). It could have gone another year or two with no real problems except that a faulty repair by a backyard mechanic (he failed to replace all the bolts when replacing the fuel tank after putting in a new fuel pump) allowed sand to get into the engine and destroyed it. Yes, I replaced the alternator twice and the fuel pump twice, but I drove that thing for slightly more than fifteen years. And it was still in driveable condition when we sold it for $250 for parts.

Currently, I'm driving a 2004 Chevy Aveo, and so far, we are doing just fine.

[LiberalHeart]

155. My two Ford Fiesta wagons were the best cars I ever had. Held up forever.

They went on to serve the next owners for many years, too. One gave out only because a truck totaled it. My current car -- a Ford Focus -- is less than two years old and I have to get either new brake pads or new brakes and also a new belt this week. I have less than 10,000 miles on it.

I also owned a Saturn that performed with no problems for nine years. My daughter has had it for two more years and it's running well. No problems. Just have to get those every-3,000-mile oil changes.

[GinaMaria]

278. I'm a Mustang Lover. I never want to drive another car

I've wanted one as long as I can remember and owning one now is as good as the dream. Love that car. I plan to have it for the rest of my life. Nothing beats the pattented sound of the engine roaring...

[natrat]

5. um...seems the crooks in congress fucked us over way more than someone buying a toyota

[DainBramaged]

6. Of course

:banghead:

[antimatter98]

7. I have been thinking about this also. Positively.

Ask this: if a Nike t-shirt costs Nike 30 cents to make in China or Honduras (I'm making up the 30 cents, I don't know exact numbers) and is sold in America for 25.00, 'someone' is pocketing a pretty huge markup. Ok, so whoever this someone is, let's get those t-shirts made in America, and maybe we
pay $30.00 but instead of a markup, we're paying for the American labor it takes to make that product,
and the money stays in America, and is spent by workers in America.

Same for cars, with more American content, manufactured here.

Thom Hartmann has said many times that companies like HP manufacture their printers to the 90% complete level overseas and then so some minor assembly in the US, and by doing this, they 1)have Asian labor rates, and apparently 2)avoid paying American taxes to a large extent.

Hartmann also says this:
"If a US company wants to hire people to answer the phone in India for two dollars an hour, fine. Let them do it - and pay a $10/hour tariff on top of the $2/hour wage. Most will simply return to the United States for their labor, and those that don't will enhance government coffers with funds that can be used for national healthcare and education of our workforce. "
http://skeptically.org/wto/id19.html

America's trade policy is DESIGNED to kill off American labor in all areas---even medical radiological scan interpretations and some legal services are going off shore.

Yes: buy American, American labor, American design, American content. A long road back.

[InkAddict]

27. Look at what some of that markup paid for on the Network(s).

http://commercial-archive.com/content/look-back-super-bowl-ads-past-nyt-picks-and-adland-picks

Don't be naive.

[L0oniX]

127. So True ...a 10 cent pill after advertising is $1.10. Again the media is our enemy.

[DemBones DemBones]

44. Good articles by Hartmann, as usual.

I hope Obama reads Hartmann; perhaps we should send him copies of articles like these.

I particularly would like him to read the article that ends:

"By walking away from the ABM and Kyoto accords, George W. Bush taught Americans that we really do have the power to simply ignore or disavow international treaties we've already committed to. It's time to apply that experience to GATT/WTO/NAFTA and return to our Founders' ideal of a nation where the rules of trade and business are, as Jefferson said, "very much guided" by the interests of We the People, rather than a handful of multinational corporations."

[digidigido]

136. Did Jefferson really say "multinational corporations"? and if so, where?

[DemBones DemBones]

233. Probably not. Hartmann said that and I put his

statement in quotes. Jefferson said the US should be "very much guided" by We the People -- that's the only direct quote from Jefferson in the paragraph. Sorry that confused you. I think "multinational" is a relatively recent word, not one Jefferson would have known, though I think "corporation" was a word in use in his time.

[Night_Nurse]

100. You're right...

I work in an ER, and our xrays and CT scans are read by a radiologist in Australia.

[AwakeAtLast]

8. I have been researching new cars

On my teacher's salary I cannot afford a new American made car. None of them with the things that I need fall in my price range. GM's sweetheart deals with Toyota are not cause for concern? The big three's persuit of big, low MPG vehicles does not make you stop and wonder?

I have no quarrel with the UAW, it is the management who have screwed the pooch and they've been doing it for a long time. Unfortunately it is the American worker who pays the price. :(

[DainBramaged]

12. Really, you can't afford an American car on your salary?

2009 Chevy Cobalt Coupe LS 1LS MSRP $15,660

Air bags, dual-stage, frontal, driver and front passenger with infant only suppression (Always use safety belts and the correct child restraints for your child's age and size, even in vehicles equipped with air bags. Children are safer when properly secured in a rear seat. See the vehicle's Owner's Manual and child safety seat instructions for more safety information.)
Air bags, head curtain side-impact, front and rear outboard seating positions (Head curtain side air bags are designed to help reduce the risk of head and neck injuries to front and rear seat occupants on the near side of certain side-impact collisions. Always use safety belts and the correct child restraints for your child's age and size, even in vehicles equipped with air bags. Children are safer when properly secured in a rear seat. See the vehicle's Owner's Manual and child safety seat instructions for more safety information.)
Air conditioning, single-zone manual with air filtration system
Audio System AM/FM stereo with CD player and MP3 playback, seek-and-scan, digital clock, auto-tone control, Radio Data System, automatic volume, TheftLock, auxiliary input jack and 36 cross-band presets.
Audio system feature, 4-speaker system
Battery, trunk-mounted, maintenance free with rundown protection
Brakes, front disc/rear drum
Cloth seat trim
Console, floor with 2 power outlets
Cup holders, dual front and dual rear
Daytime Running Lamps
Defogger, rear-window electric
Defogger, side windows
Door handles, body-color
Engine ECOTEC 2.2L Continuous Variable Valve Timing DOHC 4-cylinder MFI (155 hp <115.6 kW> @ 6100 rpm, 150 lb-ft of torque <202.5 N-m> @ 4900 rpm)
Exhaust, stainless-steel
Fascias, front and rear body-color with Black grille
Front wheel drive
Glass, Solar-Ray light-tinted
Headlamps, halogen with automatic exterior lamp control
Instrumentation with speedometer, fuel gauge, tachometer and Driver Information Center with outside temperature, warning messages and programmable menu features
LATCH system (Lower Anchors and Top tethers for CHildren), for child safety seats
Lighting, interior with trunk and single dome
Mirrors, outside manual, Black
OnStar, 1-year of Safe and Sound plan. Includes Automatic Crash Notification, Automatic Notification of Air Bag Deployment, Stolen Vehicle Location Assistance, a link to all Emergency Services, Roadside Assistance, Remote Door Unlock (if equipped), OnStar Vehicle Diagnostics, Hands-Free Calling and Remote Horn and Lights. (OnStar services require vehicle electrical system (including battery), wireless service and GPS satellite signals to be available and operating for features to function properly. OnStar acts as a link to existing emergency service providers. Stolen Vehicle Location Assistance and Remote Door Unlock success varies with conditions. OnStar Vehicle Diagnostics available on most 2004 MY and newer GM vehicles. Diagnostic capability varies by model. Visit onstar.com or call 1-888-466-7827 for system limitations and details. For a list of vehicles with Automatic Crash Notification visit onstar.com. Not available with a ship-to of Puerto Rico or the Virgin Islands.)
Safety belts, 3-point, all seating positions
Seat adjuster, driver 4-way manual height
Seat, easy-entry front passenger
Seats, front bucket with cloth, includes manual recliners, adjustable outboard head restraints and rear 60/40 split-bench with trunk pass-through (STD)
Steering column, tilt
Steering wheel, urethane
Steering, Electric Power Steering (EPS)
Suspension, Premium Ride
Theft-deterrent system, vehicle, PASS-Key III+
Tire Pressure Monitoring System
Tire sealant and inflator kit, in place of spare tire
Tires P195/65R15 all-season, blackwall
Transmission 5-speed manual
Trunk emergency release handle
Trunk release, remote
Visors, front passenger vanity mirror
Wheels 15" steel with full bolt-on wheel covers.
Wipers, front intermittent, speed-sensitive
XM Radio, XM Radio includes 3 trial months of service. XM turns your world on with commercial-free music channels from Rock to Jazz, Country to Classical, Latin Pop to Hip Hop, and virtually everything in between, all in amazing digital sound. Turn on your favorite Sports with every Major League Baseball game from Opening Day until the World Series, NHL Hockey, the PGA TOUR and college football and basketball. Plus XM brings you the biggest names in news and talk, outrageous comedy, award-winning family programming -- wherever you go from coast to coast. Exclusive live concerts, Oprah & Friends, Radio Disney, and so much more. Find what turns you on. (Available only in the 48 contiguous United States. Required $12.95 monthly subscription sold separately after 3 trial months. Visit gm.xmradio.com for more details.)


There is more standard equipent on this car than there is optional equipment on a Toyota Yaris or honda Fit



OH and I guess Toyota, Honda, and Nissan don't make big gas-eating vehicles, only Detroit auto makers? Such intelligent statements from a teacher. You REALLY did your research.

[Duckhunter935]

14. American content at 82 percent.

one of the better ones, but even american branded does not meam all american parts are used.

The General Motors Corp. Lordstown-built small car ranked fourth on the list released Friday by Cars.com among vehicles with the highest American content at 82 percent.

[DainBramaged]

17. (sigh) of course, you must have it at 100% to buy it. There is NO such thing as 100% American

let me get to work on that right away just to satisfy your need for greater American content. Do you know how much American content a Lexus has? An Infinity? An Acura? And why would you post the numbers for Honda Toyota or Nissan, they don't count do they?


Ah yes, that American spirt. No wonder we're in the shitter.

[DainBramaged]

21. You want to post that link, I can only find the list from July 2008 ON THE Cars site

Rank Make/Model U.S. Assembly Location Last Rank
1. Ford F-150* Claycomo, Mo.;
Dearborn, Mich. 1
2. Chevrolet Cobalt Lordstown, Ohio 2
3. Chevrolet Malibu** Kansas City, Kan. 9
4. Pontiac G6 Orion, Mich. 5
5. Toyota Tundra Princeton, Ind.;
San Antonio 4
6. Toyota Sienna Princeton, Ind. 6
7. Honda Odyssey Lincoln, Ala. -
8. Chevrolet Silverado 1500* Fort Wayne, Ind.;
Pontiac, Mich. 3
9. Chrysler Sebring Sterling Heights, Mich. -
10. Ford Explorer/Sport Trac Louisville, Ky. 10

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0808
What Are the Top American-Made Cars?
Cars.com's American-Made Index rates vehicles built and bought in the U.S. Factors include sales, where the car's parts are made and whether the car is assembled in the U.S. Models that have been discontinued are disqualified, as are those with a domestic-parts content rating below 75 percent.

[blue_onyx]

43. Thanks for posting

I was planning to look at the Malibu whenever I can afford a new car. I might look at the Saturn vehicles too...if the brand is still around when I buy. The Malibu is probably my first choice so it's good to see it on the list.

[AwakeAtLast]

45. Unfortunately, size does matter

The Cobalt is not big enough and cargo space is what I'm looking for. If my 6 y/o were getting ready to drive, I would consider it.

I will not comment further considering the fact that you choose to insult my intelligence rather than discuss the issue.

BTW, I worked for a GM parts supplier that is now out of business, so I was not an easy convert.

[DainBramaged]

47. Then state your requirements instead of being nebulous

I can't read your mind, do you expect your students to do the same? It's only an insult if it's true, BTW.

[AwakeAtLast]

49. The questions I did pose went unanswered

you chose to cherry pick my post. Leave my students out of this.

Reply only if you can rationally and calmly discuss.

[DainBramaged]

53. You STATED YOU CAN'T AFFORD AN AMERICAN CAR on your salary

and NOTHING ELSE. I didn't cherry pick anything, get real. YOU made NO statement as to your NEEDS, period, stop dancing. And you are a teacher? I don't need to talk about your students when you can't even formulate a paragraph clearly stating what you NEED in a car from the getgo. Come on stop now, or should I just get a bigger shovel for you?


QUOTE On my teacher's salary I cannot afford a new American made car. UNQUOTE.

[NewJeffCT]

92. umm

she did say in the next sentence - None of them with the things that I need fall in my price range.

She made no comment about the Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris

[blue_onyx]

116. She said none of the "new American made cars"

that came the with "the things that I need" were with within her price range. This implies that American cars are some how so much more expensive that they are unaffordable to her while foreign cars are affordable. DainBramaged was showing that the Cobalt is affordable, well-equipped and was using the Honda Fit and Toyota Yaris as comparisons. I agree with him...to say a vehicle from one the American companies is somehow so much more expensive that it's unaffordable is BS. If someone doesn't want to buy an American car that's fine but don't hide behind some BS reason...just say you want a foreign car.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NewJeffCT]

134. So, if she took into account things like

resale value, she would be losing out with most American brand cars in comparison to Toyota or Honda. And, if she is interested in MPG, the aforementioned Cobalt gets less in the way of MPG than the Yaris or Fit.

Oh, and the 2009 Yaris that DainBramaged mentioned has an MSRP range of $12,205 to $15,880. The Chevy Cobalt starts at $15,660 and goes to $23,000+ If you're on a limited budget, the $3,400 lower price for the baseline Yaris can make a huge difference.

[DainBramaged]

139. Cobalt gets 34-37 MPG highway, how much does the Fit or Yaris get

(theme from Jeopardy plays while research is done by poster). And I originally stated the Cobalt comes with more standard equipment that either has available optionally, and that was MSP not final value (dum dum dah dah dah dah dee, dee dee dee dee dee dum dum dum).

[NewJeffCT]

142. gets the same highway, but the Yaris beats it in the city

and, if you don't need the extra standard equipment that the Cobalt has, then you still have the base Yaris that is $3,400 cheaper, has a better resale value and gets better mileage.

[DainBramaged]

146. BUT she didn't tell us what she wanted in the beginning

so the entire discussion is MOOT. And one last point, in that size category, the Cobalt offers what neither of the others do, side curtain air bags standard. If you think $3800 is worth the difference in an accident, I don't want to go to Vegas with you.

[thesquanderer]

213. wrong about honda fit, and a bunch of other things

re: "the Cobalt offers what neither of the others do, side curtain air bags standard."

Honda Fit has side curtain air bags standard.

re: "If you think $3800 is worth the difference in an accident, I don't want to go to Vegas with you."

First, not everyone can afford $3800 for extra safety. Second, if that's your perspective, you can spend still more money, and get a car that is safer than the Cobalt. So then no one should buy a Cobalt?

Moreover, overall, the Fit is actually rated as safer than the Cobalt! The Institute for Highway Safety lists their safest rated cars at http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx and in the small and mini car categories, the recommended safest cars are Honda Civic, Mitsubishi Lancer, Scion xB, Subaru Impreza, Toyota Corolla, VW Rabbit, and Honda Fit. No Cobalt to be found. So while the Cobalt may be a fine car, arguing that it is safer than the Fit doesn't wash. Many American nameplates do make the Institute's list, but just not in the small car category. There may be many fine American cars, but in small cars, foreign companies' models are safer. So if that's where you're putting your priorities, then it would be hypocritical for you to suggest that anyone in the market for a small car buy anything from the Big 3.

However, you could in good conscience suggest that they buy a Toyota Corolla, since it is 75% American-made... which, as it happens, is just as American as the 75% American Chevy Cobalt. (The Honda Civic is also a pretty American choice at 70%). These stats can be found at http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/inthenews/07-10-06.html

FYI, here are some other links for safest cars:

http://www.autotropolis.com/wiki/index.php?title=Top_10_Safest_Cars_for_2008

http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/16/safety-cars-affordable-forbeslife-cx_ae_0516vehicles.html

[Castleman]

227. Screw "American made Toyotas"

Oh, they do employ some workers here, no doubt. Bu the bulk of the profit goes to...um....Japan, not the USA. Ergo, the exec who drops a tip in a restaurant Tokyo, does nothing for the American worker, on his personal level he has no Americans at all who benefit from his wealth. His gardener, pool guy, dry cleaner, etc are all Japanese. Now, take the Toyota out of the equation, and remove let's just say the 30,000 cars that Toyota owned plant makes from the marketplace altogether. Gonna need 30,000 more cars, what if we....bought Chevys? Hmm, that'd mean Chevy needs workers to build those 30,000 cars, and they're going to hire people HERE to do it. THOSE people's salaries will help them and the people who depend on them, and the wealthy exec? His gardener, pool guy, etc are all AMERICANS. Wowee, then America would be real strong, wouldn't it? I admit, the USA auto companies misjudged the market badly in the 80's and the early part of this decade, but every last one of you who kicks them to the curb by buying an overpriced Lexus (really, it's a Toyota with leather seats, for 50,000?? WTF???), you are directly responsible for putting Americans out of work. And when those Americans are broke, they're not going to patronize YOUR businesses or place of employment, ergo, YOU will be cut back, laid off or outsourced, enjoy living in your fancy-ass 50,000 dollar Toyota then. Hope those leather seats are really comfortable on those cold night, you stupid traitor.

[thesquanderer]

262. execs

If Toyota is building a car with just as much American content (i.e. from American suppliers) as a Chevy Cobalt, and using American workers to build it, I think the fact that the execs at the top are in tokyo instead of detroit is a relatively minor factor. But of course you are entitled to disagree!

[DainBramaged]

245. I find it interesting you didn't tell the whole story

The FIT is BARELY safer than the Cobalt and it is a new design, and the Cobalt got the green OK too, so stop splitting hairs. I notice you left out the Yaris, didn't fit into your agenda? FYI, the Cobalt is in it's last year (released in 2005), it gets replaced in 2010 by the Cruise, with a GAS engine that will get 42 MPG highway without batteries, and be state of the art. Glad you are on top of things. Oh, and your little article (content) was from 2006, the content went up since then, but you didn't bother to read the list I posted further up.

[thesquanderer]

263. sigh

re: "The FIT is BARELY safer than the Cobalt and it is a new design, and the Cobalt got the green OK too, so stop splitting hairs."

All I did was look up the safe cars and see that the Fit is there, and the Cobalt is not. I have no idea how far below it the Cobalt is, I just didn't see it on the list of safest cars. But thanks for admitting the Fit is safer.


re: "I notice you left out the Yaris, didn't fit into your agenda?"

I had no agenda other than pointing out your error in saying the Fit had no side air bag (Yaris not relevant to that point, I wasn't disagreeing with you there, I actually don't know much about the yaris), and also taking issue with your logic that basically said that anyone who wasn't willing to pay $3k+ more for a safer car was making a mistake, which a) assumes that people can afford it and b) from the sound of it, also seemed to be saying that it is only worth paying more to go from yaris-level safety to cobalt-level safety, but then not worth trying to get anything safer than that, which sounded arbitrary and inconsistent to me.


re: "FYI, the Cobalt is in it's last year (released in 2005), it gets replaced in 2010 by the Cruise, with a GAS engine that will get 42 MPG highway without batteries, and be state of the art. Glad you are on top of things."

I never claimed to be an expert. It sounds like you do claim to be an expert, yet you didn't know the Fit had side air bags, and didn't know (or want to say) that its safety is rated above the cobalt. Guess that didn't "fit" in with your agenda.

As for the 2010 Cobalt replacement, that doesn't seem like a sensible recommendation for someone looking to buy a car now, which is what we've been talking about.

However, I see you are correct that my percentage-american chart was from 2006, that happened to be what came up in my search... I think it supports the point okay, but feel free to share a more up-to-date list.

[blue_onyx]

148. The Yaris probably isn't the best comparison

I believe it is listed as a sub-compact and the Cobalt is a compact. So if you compare it to the Corolla, it's more comparable in price and MPG.

[Night_Nurse]

162. I love my Yaris...

I have the hatchback, and I get around 35-40mpg. I've had it for almost two years, and have only had to change the oil/rotate the tires. It's my first foreign car - when I bought it, I wanted a reliable small car, and after my nightmarish experiences owning both a Chevy Chevette (junk) and a Plymouth Horizon (which was such a POS, I finally just abandoned it on the side of the road one day when it broke down for the umpteenth time), there was no way I would buy an American-made small car again.

Unfortunately it's this gung-ho "Buy American" mentality that has caused people to key my car's paint-job. I have found out that one drives a foreign car at their own risk here in Detroit.. :eyes:

[DainBramaged]

166. Chevy Chevette and a Plymouth Horizon

And from what era were those two cars? How can you even compare them to ANYTHING from ANY auto maker, one from the 70's one from the 80's? Safety, sophistication? Living in the past, this is EXACTLY what I ma talking about, you compared two cars one probably made 35 years ago and one 25 years ago to your MODERN Yaris.

We can't catch a break.

[Night_Nurse]

172. Well, sorry if those cars were from another era...

before the Big Three started cranking out SUVs and Hummers, but since that was my last experience with American small cars, I wasn't about to take another risk. Sorry.

[DainBramaged]

But you have NOTHING modern to compare your experience too

so how can you say your Yaris is better than anything currently made by the big three? Are you here just to bash American made cars or is there another agenda?

[Night_Nurse]

190. Nope...

I'm not here to bash American cars - I've lived in Detroit all my life, and have bought American cars all of my life, until I bought the Toyota in 2006. I've had some good American cars - my first car was a '77 Cordoba, and it was built like a tank. I loved that car. Most recently, I owned a Plymouth Voyager minivan (when the kiddies were small), and it served me well. My ex-husband has a 2000 Astro van that has close to 200k miles on it. I'm not ripping American cars. My point was that my past experiences with American small cars was so bad that 20 years later, I was afraid to buy another one.

[DainBramaged]

175. Dupe (doubleclick)

[XemaSab]

239. I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's a problem with your argument

It's impossible to argue that a 2009 car will go for 100,000 miles trouble-free, because 2009 cars haven't been DRIVEN for 100,000 miles.

Therefore, you have to look at the past. Did a 1999 Tundra go for 100,000 miles? Did a 1999 F-150 go for 100,000 miles? :shrug:

Maybe, maybe not, but trying to argue that new cars have a staying power that older cars did not carries inherent problems.

[deadmessengers]

182. They're unafffordable when you factor in the very frequent expensive repairs. n/t

[DainBramaged]

187. Really, you have examples? From modern era maybe?

[deadmessengers]

189. 2008 Chevy HHR - does that qualify as modern?

Got stuck on the side of the road in one of those pieces of shit back in March. I also own a 2000 F-150 that has cost me at least three times as much in repairs as my made-in-Indiana 2000 Honda Accord.

[DainBramaged]

191. Sorry I had to pry it out of you, do you OWN the HHR?

[deadmessengers]

194. No.

It was a rental with less than 7000 miles on it that left me stranded on the side of the road. I own the unreliable 2000 F150 and the reliable made-in-America 2000 Accord, though.

[DainBramaged]

197. (sigh) enjoy.

[Obamanaut]

230. My 2000 F150 had 95,000 miles on it when I gave it to my daughter

after her husband left her 3 years ago. He took with him a Dodge pickup with nearly 200,000 miles on it that he is still driving. The F150 was traded for a Ranger last year, and I still see the F150 from time to time here in our small town.

Wife has a Merc Sable with 45,000 miles (2005 model). I drive a 2005 Suzuki C90T (motorcycle). All the cars we've had in our 41 year marriage have been Ford products except for a 1974 Plymouth Fury III(bought new, had it for years) and a Nissan Maxima wagon (traded it for Ford minivan because the dealer had it in the shop almost as much as we did - never did get it to run smooth)

[provis99]

280. F-150s are all made in Canada

as well, about 1/3 of the parts in an "American" built car are manufactured in Ontario. Some "American" cars like the Camaro/Firebird are built entirely in Ontario.

American cars aren't even American anymore.

[Obamanaut]

286. One wonders what they are making at the Ford truck plant in Dearborn. nt

[TommyO]

323. My 2005 Malibu has been a dream compared to my money-sucking VW

The repairs have included replacing a right front blinker and having the brakes done a year ago.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RedstDem]

137. Move to Korea

And buy a Hyundia........

Good Luck

Signed
-Union Boss

PS. there's no unions to bash over there.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

186. There ARE auto unions in Korea

and their threatening a strike,

[tomreedtoon]

219. Here's news, Union Boss: there's no unions HERE, either.

If there were, you guys would be striking and shutting down businesses and stores, maybe even going up to blockade the houses of the CEO's who outsourced your jobs. You don't, and so your unions are dying. As I've said before, it's been a long time since River Rouge.

[DainBramaged]

152. Thanks for the call out, and the personal attack which is completely unjustified

I don't sell "Detroit Rust" pal, and I'd like to know what you do for a living. I don't follow your sorry arse around mocking or calling you out, but I guess you're so insecure you need to do that here.

[tomreedtoon]

221. You made it personal, DainBramaged. Returning the favor.

You have incessantly supported buying American when there is nothing American that is worth buying. You are one with the magnetic-ribbons-on-your-SUV crowd. If you want to do something real, go up and blockade the homes of the CEO's that outsourced your job, and are about to outsource the rest of our jobs. And stop beating up people trying to survive the flood of American mediocrity.

[Odin2005]

158. If you think domestic cars are "piles of rust" you are stuck in the 80s..

domestic 90s and 00s domestic vehicles are just as good cars as Asian ones. So sad you have fallen for lies spews by the Asian car makers.

[mbperrin]

69. We bought a year end Chrysler Town and Country with 21 miles,

Stow and Go seating, 17 mpg around town, 34+ on the highway, more comfortable than many large sedans I've driven over the years, terrific creature comforts and control placements. $18,800. Tax and title down, 55 payments little over $400/month, what's not to like? Have had it for a year, absolutely no service required except for oil changes.

I teach and make less than 60k, so this was a good choice for us.

[AwakeAtLast]

117. I make less than 40K

but I will continue searching - I will add to my list.

Mr. WMU isn't a big van fan, but you never know. Thanks!

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. Do you have to knock what she says because she's a teacher?

Sheesh. I am so tired of the constant teacher bashing here. Many of our teachers here have left DU because of that. It's just downright mean and serves no purpose.

[DainBramaged]

72. I guess you can't read either? (Just kidding)

She STATED she was a TEACHER and COULD NOT AFFORD and American car ON HER SALARY, which is how we got to this point, she decided to become , never mind, I'm tired of the Christian bashing, American car bashing, Union bashing, what else. Give me a break.

[Night_Nurse]

167. Yeah, what's up with that, anyway? nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

170. It's the new hobby here

Bashing teachers.

I am saddened by yet another PM today from a DU teacher who is leaving because of this bashing.

It is unreal that so many here claim to be progressives but engage in divisive attacks upon others who are 'guilty' because of the profession they chose. And I am going to speak out when I see it.

[Night_Nurse]

174. That's terrible...

why bash teachers? I appreciate teachers - who else would do what they do for much less money than they deserve? Oh yeah, nurses :-)

[DainBramaged]

176. Why bash Christians, Union workers, American car manufacturers

does that bother you? it goes on here all of the time, you show such horror at an other's faux outrage.

[proud2BlibKansan]

229. And don't forget certain states

As a Kansan, I am upset by the notion that where you live is indicative of your intelligence or political persuasion.

[LanternWaste]

291. Seld-delete

Edit: self delete.

[raystorm7]

I've had my nissan 240 for 14 yrs running...

while my parents cars, a buick century and Dodge caravan, have either fallen apart or sold. Both were NEW/USED and a bitch to fix and buy parts for. As for mine, still runs like I just got it. Easy as hell to fix and doesn't break the bank especially my patience. PEACE OF MIND.

[Yes We Did]

132. Those care as ugly as F*CK!

I don't care how cheap they are. They're still ugly. Not a chance in hell I'd buy one.

[onager]

64. Try a former rental car.

I've bought them and so have several friends and relatives. Haven't heard any complaints, just the opposite.

But as always, of course, caveat emptor. Just off the top of my alleged head...

PROS:
--You don't take the huge new-car hit for depreciation. The rental car company already did.
--Careful maintenance.
--Low mileage (if you look around). Many rental cars are sold with less than 10,000 miles on the clock.
--Balance of mfr. warranty. My ex-rental developed a minor problem with the CD changer. The local dealership replaced the whole stereo with an upgraded verson. Cost to me: zero.
--Rental-car lemons or uglies are dumped to the auctions, the rental companies don't want them on the sales inventory.
--Lack of high-pressure sales BS for the car sale. This is a sideline for the company, not the primary business. So you don't (usually) deal with a stereotypical car sales screamer.
--(In California at least): ex-rental cars for sale are inspected and certified by the Auto Club.

CONS:
--Hard to negotiate. Prices are usually fixed, normally halfway between low and high Kelly Blue Book.
--Still possible to get a lemon (as always).
--Usual high-pressure sales BS for add-ons, such as extended warranties, LoJak, etc. etc. This is pure profit for the salesman, so ignore ALL of it. Ex-rental cars are usually still in the "window" for buying a manufacturer's extended warranty, and that can be a pretty good deal. (e.g., Ford's ESP includes a free rental car if yours needs service. Or at least it used to.)

[tridim]

82. Just a small tip, LoJack is worth it

My current used car came with a LoJack system and initially thought it was just a bell and/or whistle, but 6 months later I found out that it is one of the few products I've bought that works exactly as claimed.

My car was back in my parking space within an hour of discovering it was gone.

[AwakeAtLast]

121. I'm looking at a lot of options

and will consider your suggestion. Thanks!

[Hansel]

122. Yep, this is the way we buy them and have been very pleased. n/t

[deadmessengers]

183. Another con

People drive those cars like idiots - they simply don't give a rat's ass how hard they drive it because the maintenance and repair arent' their problem.

[Romulox]

284. A teacher, with a "union yes!" avatar, talking about buying non-union. SOLIDARITY!!!!

Er, I mean HYPOCRISY!!!

:hi:

[salguine]

9. It's a ridiculous argument on several levels. It becomes increasingly

difficult to "buy American" when less and less stuff is actually made in America. If we don't make anything anymore, how are we supposed to buy it?

And I have never felt any obligation to buy American just because I'm an American and I "should". If Detroit wants me to buy an American car, then maybe they had better start building a halfway decent car that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. People would choose American cars over foreign ones if they were the best choice for buyers; it's that simple.

And while I'm on it, I don't feel particular pride at being American, any more than I do because I'm tall or have all ten fingers. It's a circumstance of my birth, is all. I could just as easily have come out English or Japanese or Mauritanian or short or have kept all my hair as I got older. It just is what it is. I feel more responsibility to humanity at large than I do America specifically.

[DainBramaged]

10. As usual, Detroit doesn't build a halfway decent car that isn't expensive

Thanks for doing your research! You are a shining example of the nearsightedness of the American consumer.

[Kolesar]

24. Hope you're happy bussing tables for a career

When American manufacturing collapses. :sarcasm:

[Coyote_Bandit]

11. I'm confused

Would someone please explain why the hell it is wrong to buy imported crap from Wally World but it is perfectly acceptable to buy big ticket imported items?

Seems logically inconsistent to me.

[DainBramaged]

13. This is DU, nothing is logical any more.

[eilen]

22. We try to buy American when we can

or buy used/second hand. I have to say that complaints about American vehicle quality have a basis of truth. While our 1996 Saturn is still going strong, in order to do so we have to feed it oil frequently-- a quart every week or two and more after long trips. My Chevy Blazer just needed $2000 worth of repairs a month ago. That is about the average I end up spending every year to keep it up and road worthy. When I purchase a vehicle, I make a commitment to it for ten years. After the ten years, I may keep it or replace it. It is the only way to "get my money's worth". But this Blazer is really making me rethink this. If I have another repair/maintenance (why is it always called "maintenance" when you get your brakes fixed?-it's still a repair) this year that is over $500, I may reconsider and sell it instead and purchase a new vehicle. It will be another American made car but this time it will most likely be a Ford. I think some of the quality issues are related to the "walmartification" of our industrial practices. More and more components are produced ultra cheap in quasi slave-states, and then shipped here where they "assemble" the components into a vehicle. Also, I guess my brake pads don't last as long as environmental laws have changed the material they are made out of (according to my repairman and the dealership). I'd rather have cleaner air so that is a trade off but I would hope they would continue to research some harder longer lasting components to create them out of.

Yesterday I purchased 5 flannel shirts (one was insulated), 3 sweaters, one wooden bowl and to strings of beads for $40. The flannel shirts were pre-softened and one of the sweaters was a handknit. I bought these at the Rescue Mission. My money went straight back into my community to either pay for wages for the jobs in the thrift store or supported the programs of the Rescue Mission which include a homeless shelter and meals or food vouchers for people in crisis. I can't say that about Walmart. I can find almost anything clothing related I need at a thrift store. I don't buy used underclothes but I will construct my own from materials purchased there. Socks are problematic but are easy to find made in the USA new. I purchase my husband's workpants from a union run collective in PA. I also sew a good deal of my own clothes but just don't have enough time to do it all.

I also try to source the food we eat locally (local raised meats and vegetables) but I am not as good with that. It is far easier to run to the grocery store. Luckily our local store tries to carry stuff from local farms but in the winter... not as much local fresh stuff. I could do much better with this as with anything.

[madmom]

40. I've asked that very same question, all I get is that it's different, how, I

don't know. Like you said it's totally inconsistent and sets a double standard.

[JerseygirlCT]

51. You said it in your post:

crap.

Some don't feel that the foreign-made cars they're buying are crap. They may have had bad experiences with American cars and good ones with Japanese or German vehicles.

Wal-Mart sells nothing but crap - why buy something there if it's just going to fall apart anyway? Same logic here - a car is a big purchase. I don't want a car for 4 years - I want something that will need minimum visits to the shop and maximum lifespan. I don't want to become too friendly with the guys in the shop.

[notesdev]

56. What is unacceptable

Is the US government itself selling foreign-made goods in the gift shops at US national historical sites.

Visit the archives where the Constitution is held... then go to the gift shop and try to find something US made. It's perverse, everything there is made in China.

[harmonicon]

15. I'd be interested to know what country that Ford t-shirt, Champion hoodie, and blue jeans...

... were made in. I'm guessing not the US. Hypocrisy is awesome for the hypocrites.

[DainBramaged]

18. Of course, thanks for supporting US industry

:crazy:

[harmonicon]

29. I do

I'm sitting here typing this while being warmed by my US-made zip-up sweatshirt. How about you?

[DainBramaged]

32. American made Union made jeans, old Hanes American made t-shirt

you want to compare anything else? Oh an I OWN an American car, as does my Daughter (Pontiac Grand Prix) Sister (Cobalt SS with the Supercharger and she is 62).

Any other questions?

[harmonicon]

98. Nope

I don't own a car, and hope to never own one.

[DainBramaged]

103. And you're an expert on cars?

:rofl:

[harmonicon]

110. I wasn't saying anything about cars

I don't car about cars as they relate to my personal life. What I was talking about is the hypocrisy, which many people have already pointed out here, of people shitting bricks when the death of American industry means the loss of their jobs, but doing jack-shit to support other American industries. I'd love to see the UAW and Teamsters boycott Walmart and any foreign made products when a US-made equivalent is available. Until then, I have no problem calling a spade a spade.

[blue neen]

16. The catalogs I'm receiving are emphasizing the products that are USA made.

I do pay attention to where the products are made before purchasing.

We've been a GM family forever--just bought a new Buick Lucerne in October, and it's a fantastic car.

We have to purchase new thermal drapes for the living room and will be dealing with a company that has USA made curtains (Country Curtains).

The Plow and Hearth catalog has a number of USA made items. You know what? We'll buy them before we buy the imports.

Yes, it is a free country and you can buy products from whatever part of the world you want. I choose, however, to buy American whenever I can. It makes me at least feel like I'm supporting our country.

Does anyone know where I can buy USA handmade rag rugs--the type you use in your kitchen? They last forever...I guess there is the dig...if it lasts forever it won't be for sale at Wal-Mart.

[No Elephants]

20. A manufacturer's claim that a product is "made in America" can mean anything--or nothing.

[rfranklin]

75. Could be made in a slave labor sweat shop in the Marianas

and still carry Made in USA labels.

[L0oniX]

130. Well actually it's only the "Made in America" tag that's made in America.

[Hansel]

171. That will have to be fixed then.

Legislation defining and regulating what can be labeled as "Made in America" would cure that.

[No Elephants]

236. We probably already have laws that cover that. We cannot even keep lead out of

baby toys, though. No enforcement.

When I posted that I tried to buy American in the past, I meant TRIED. I really researched it; and I was not even online then. I really tried. It was not as simple as it sounds. It's still worth trying, though. Even if you miss sometimes, it's better than missing most of the time.

[blue neen]

25. I guess there is no guarantee, but I actually try to do the research.

Country Curtains makes their USA made products (they do also have imports) at their factory in Massachusetts.

Do you know where I bought a lot of Christmas presents last year? At craft fairs, where you actually get to meet the people who make what they sell.


Sorry, I meant to reply to post #20.

[No Elephants]

19. What does "buy American" mean exactly? Is it buying American if

the factories are in the US, paying taxes here and giving American jobs, etc., but stockholders in Japan are getting the profits? On the other hand, what if only minor assembly is done in the US?

I don't know what "Buy American" means. I do know I tried to buy American once and it was very complicated to figure out. Sometimes, with a garment, only the label had been sewn on here, but the product was being passed off as American.

Since I honestly don't know, I'd be interested in seeing what people here have to say.

[DainBramaged]

26. So far it seems that people don't want to buy American, or can't you see that?

I buy EVERYTHING I can American made, all you have to do is use that newfangled thing called Google and break out one of those little plastic cards that serve as money. Sorry it's difficult for you.


http://www.stillmadeinusa.com

[No Elephants]

31. If you even read my entire post, you totally missed the point of my post.

[DainBramaged]

34. I didn't miss your point, buying American isn't dificult

click on the link in my last post, you find LOTS of American manufacturers.

[No Elephants]

37. You did miss it. If the manufacturer is located only in America and uses American labor,

management, components, materials, etc., that is the easiest, most simplistic case. But certainly NOT the most common. To the contrary, that is the exception rather than the rule, even for something as simple as a set of dishes or a dress. And, the manufacturers are not necessarily forthcoming about all that, especially when they label things "made in America." However, even sewing on a label in America means jobs for some Americans and some tax revenues.

I asked what buying American means. You are not dealing with the definition or addressing the less simplistic cases. So, yes, you did miss the point.

[DainBramaged]

39. Made means MADE from American content and labor

[No Elephants]

42. Again, simplistic. Entirely? If not entirely, to what degree? Even making a label in the

US can use American materials and labor. Yet, people who buy something that says "made in America" would not think the manuf. is talking only about the label.

[RedstDem]

144. Great website, I Use it Alot

Can't believe all the anti-union and anti American sentiment on this thread, you pulled the wingers out on this one.
Thought I was on free republic for a minute..

[DainBramaged]

147. Yep, and they are in full attack mode today, out of the woodwork.

:hug:

[Andy823]

83. Yep and,

I bought a Ford Focus so I could support the american auto industry and guess what, it's made in Mexico! Seems like few cars are actually mad in the U.S.A., except for the foreign ones!

[Night_Nurse]

104. Good question, I was wondering the same thing. nt

[iamjoy]

23. My Acura Is Made In America

My TL is assembled in Marysville, Ohio. Some Fords, on the other hand, are made in Mexico.

I think this "Buy American" is a good thing, and the past two Christmases I have looked for things made in the USA. But I'm not sure how to play that game with cars or other large items.

[DainBramaged]

28. Assembled and made are two completely different designations, and thanks for supporting the UAW

and true American industry. Your Acura was assembled in America, not made. dictionary.com.

Education of the consumer, important when considering that a JAPANESE car is NOT an AMERICAN car.

[blue neen]

33. Our Lucerne was made at the Detroit Hammtrack plant.

You are correct when you say that it is not difficult to find these things out. Of course places like Wal-Mart have taught us to just BUY and not THINK.

It is my hope that Americans WILL retrain themselves to start thinking about what their money is being spent on.

[DainBramaged]

36. Thank you

:hug:

[No Elephants]

35. I wonder if all manufacturers designate honestly, though? When I looked into things, I found

not all of them did. But that was not cars. (I do not drive.)

[DainBramaged]

38. As usual, I slug it out here while the "Progressives" who claim to support

Liberal Democratic values keep reminding me that buying Foreign is OK with them as long as cheap is the first word.

How sad our labels are so phony and our goods are imported.

I'm going to the movies, this sucks.

[blue_onyx]

48. Too many progressives have completely...

bought into the Republican, Reaganomics "free market" BS.

[Hansel]

169. They sure have. And it's going to take powerful leadership to

deprogram the "free marketers". Luckily we have that coming on January 20th.

[NashVegas]

70. Better Make Sure It's a Hollywood Movie

and not foreign :)

[Unvanguard]

298. I'm curious as to when nationalist exclusivism became "progressive" or "liberal" or "Democratic"

Perhaps you could remind me?

[Deb]

46. like that display of "us vs them" hasn't been tried before...

She is 30 years too late.

Never having purchased a new car and no longer owning one, I wonder what list she has me on. :scared:

[DustyJoe]

50. Treatment begets Longevity

I have found that how you treat a vehicle makes the biggest difference in how long it lasts.
Ex: I bought my wife a 76 Ford LTD in the 70's that she drove for 13 years and the only thing I ever spent money on was Ignition modules and 1 master cylinder replacement. That my friends is longevity. I drove a 1979 El Camino for 19 years, I live rurally and put over 100k on it, put in a rebuilt engine for 1200.00 10 years in and put another 100k on it and still sold it for over 2000.00 when I finally parted with it in 2004 for a 4wd Silverado.
Now my wife and I both drive Chevy Monte Carlos, my wife has had hers for 8 years and I bought a used one since hers was such a great car. Both have v6's, both get 30mpg and have only put money into brakes just for hers at 75k miles.
then
on the other hand, bought my youngest a 80 chevy citation in high school, I thought this was a real workhorse and it took real punishment till it died. She let her boyfriend use it constantly ran it low on oil and tranny fluid till it burned out way before its time.

So in 35 years I have not had an american car I ever had a major complaint about and I will continue to buy american and wish more people would do the same.

But thats my experience.

[DainBramaged]

54. On Friday we put brakes on my Daughter's 2004 grand Prix

First set, 76000+ miles, and they were still the thickness of a dime, not bad. And ONLY the front rotors needed to be cut. I'd say that's dependability.

[newfie11]

52. My ford was made in Canada and so is my dodge

Who knows where cars are made. Isn't toyota made somewhere in the south?

[1gobluedem]

192. By CAW workers

Canada is unionized. The import plants in the US are not and actively work against union organizers.

Big, BIG difference.

[Fiendish Thingy]

55. My Chrysler PT Cruiser was made in Mexico; my previous car, A Honda was made in USA n/t

[junior college]

57. What is American?

Some Ford and Chevy parts are made in China but manufactured in Detroit. Others are manufactured in Mexico. Ford, GM and Chrysler used to be made in America buy not anymore. Meanwhile there are some Toyota's that are 100% American made. It gets confusing.

[llmart]

58. My experience......

is that these people with the "Buy American" stickers and persona of moral superiority are probably the same people who buy everything else they own from Wal-Mart, the made-in-China retail outlet. They think it only applies to cars because in some way people in Detroit are egocentric when it comes to cars. And before you start to flame me, I live here and am pro-union but am also a realist and try to be objective.

Yes, there are some people who spend a lot of their time researching every purchase they make so it's a made in America product, but I think you'll find that those people are very rare. And I don't blame people one bit if they have had an awful experience with an American made car who then make their next car purchase a foreign model.

And once again, before you flame me, my husband is an automotive engineer who would come home from his job at the Big Three and tell me how management would make them cut corners when it came to quality to save a few cents on each vehicle so that the profit margin was larger, thus insuring management got a bigger year-end bonus.

[DainBramaged]

60. You are so wrong, so wrong,and to label those of us here who struggle

to educate those of you who think nothing of buying Foreign goods is appalling.


"is that these people with the "Buy American" stickers and persona of moral superiority are probably the same people who buy everything else they own from Wal-Mart,"

I have been in a Wal-mart ONCE in 10 years ONCE, and that was to buy a gift card for friends in Florida who lost their home in a hurricane in 2003 and ALL that was open was a Wal_mart.

Do not castigate those of us who make every attempt to buy American and will pass buying anything if we can't get it. I am NOW buying Syracuse china on Ebay since they shut down the factory in NY. To buy from china. What the hell is wrong with this country. If people stopped crying about price and insisted on quality, things would change.

[llmart]

141. No, you are wrong.....

Did you even read my post? Maybe you make every effort to do that with your purchases, but THE MAJORITY do not. They think it's important only with cars because "cars" is what they know in Detroit. Have you lived in any other states? I have. Different things are important to different people.

I certainly don't need people like you to "educate" me. I singlehandedly organized my fellow coworkers to join a union, so you can't pin the anti-union label on me. What I am trying to do is educate YOU that things are never black and white, but shades of grey.

And you're living in a dreamworld if you think things are going back to the way things were in the '50's. They're not.

[DainBramaged]

143. So it's OK to buy Foreign at the expense of American jobs as long as you get a deal?

If the majority insisted on American made goods instead of cheap Foreign crap, we wouldn't be here, and it' a shame as a Union member and organizer you don't see that.

[llmart]

249. "cheap foreign goods"

Once again, you are not being objective. My son bought a very expensive Chrysler and had $7,000 worth of repairs in the five years he owned it. He told his father that he just couldn't see giving Chrysler his business after the bad experience he had, so he bought an Acura which he's had for over five years with no repairs. Now, I understand that you can get a lemon with any make, but the response he got from Chrysler headquarters to his letters was akin to "too bad, so sad". Why on earth would anyone, even if his father worked for Chrysler, decide to buy another one after that experience? Quite frankly, his father felt the same way.

If you read the entire article, it made my point better than I can. This is an issue near and dear to Michiganders, but the country/world does not revolve around Michigan. Also, the woman in the article who held up the sign stated that only "25% of the money is spent in the US" when someone purchases a foreign car. That is not true. Many Americans and Michiganders work for foreign car companies, and those workers spend their money in this country, either at local restaurants, retail places, etc., and their local taxes go to fund local public entities, so just spouting the figure 25% is inaccurate and misleading and too simplistic.

As I said before, blanket statements such as hers and yours are never the whole picture. Try not to be so egocentric and try a little objectivity sometime.

[DainBramaged]

250. For every "horror story" I hear hear about American cars on DU, there are 10 happy endings

it never fails but the "horror stories" are exclusive to DU. And I am being objective, and I'll reiterate, if you didn't want a deal, there wouldn't be such a demand for cheap Foreign crap. It amazes me how so many here will not go into a Wal-mart but will buy a Foreign car. Because Wal-mart "abuses" their employees, but it's OK to abuse Union members and craftsmen while supporting Foreign entities.


Statements as yours are never the whole picture either. You can't have your cake and eat it too. When we become a nation of Service jobs (we're almost there) and waitresses and Public Service workers, you'll wonder what happened to America. But then again, I don't think you will.

[llmart]

268. So now you're trashing public service workers?

You truly are egocentric.

I happen to be a person who tries to see both sides of issues and make informed decisions that way. If I didn't I would be no better than a freeper, blindly following an ideology because someone told me to, not because I've used my own mind to make decisions.

Some of us were labeled unAmerican because we didn't support Bush's phony war on terror. What's the difference if you call someone unAmerican because they bought a foreign car? If I'm going to profess to be prochoice as a woman because choice is what America is about, then I can't castigate my neighbor for choosing to drive a foreign vehicle.

Many Democrats are avid environmentalists. What do you say to someone who bought a Prius a couple of years ago because there were no American made hybrids? That's hardly a "cheap foreign car". Should that person be made to feel guilty because he/she saw the handwriting on the wall with regards to the environment and exhorbitant gas prices before the Big Three did?

Bottom line is if we are to live in a civil society than people like this woman in the article have to stop thinking that they know another person's circumstances before passing judgment on them. I abhor people who drive Hummers - many of us on DU do - but I draw the line at thinking I have the right to slap a flyer on their vehicle telling them what awful people they are.

[DainBramaged]

59. UAW MADE

http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/index.cfm




Appliances

Automotive Parts & Equipment

Food & Beverage

Heating & Air Conditioning

Home Repair & Building Products

Housewares & Kitchen Products

Industrial Equipment Supply

Miscellaneous

Pharmaceutical Products

Plumbing Products

Sports & Recreation

Medical, Health

Higher Education

Agricultural Implements

Heavy Trucks/Construction Equipment

Education

Cars & Trucks - 2009

Cars & Trucks - 2008

Cars & Trucks - 2007

Cars & Trucks - 2006



2009 VEHICLES BUILT BY UNION MEMBERS
IN THE UNITED STATES & CANADA



UAW CARS
Buick Lucerne
Cadillac CTS
Cadillac DTS
Cadillac STS
Cadillac XLR
Chevrolet Cobalt
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Malibu/Hybrid
Chrysler Sebring Convertible
Chrysler Sebring Sedan
Dodge Avenger
Dodge Caliber
Dodge Viper
Ford Focus
Ford Mustang Ford Taurus
Lincoln MKS
Mazda6
Mercury Sable
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder
Mitsubishi Galant
Pontiac G5
Pontiac G6
Pontiac Solstice
Pontiac Vibe
Saturn Aura/Hybrid
Saturn Sky
Toyota Corolla*

UAW PICKUPS
Chevrolet Colorado
Chevrolet Silverado*
Dodge Dakota
Dodge Ram Pickup
Ford F Series* Ford Ranger
GMC Canyon
GMC Sierra*
Mazda B-Series
Toyota Tacoma*

UAW SUVs/CUVs
Buick Enclave
Cadillac Escalade/Hybrid
Cadillac Escalade ESV
Cadillac SRX
Chevrolet Suburban*
Chevrolet Tahoe*/Hybrid
Chevrolet Traverse
Chrysler Aspen/Hybrid
Dodge Durango/Hybrid
Dodge Nitro
Ford Escape/Hybrid
Ford Expedition
Ford Explorer
Ford Explorer Sport Trac
Ford Taurus X
GMC Acadia
GMC Yukon*/Hybrid H2 Hummer
H3 Hummer
Jeep Commander
Jeep Compass
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Jeep Liberty
Jeep Patriot
Jeep Wrangler
Lincoln Navigator
Mazda Tribute/Hybrid
Mercury Mariner/Hybrid
Mercury Mountaineer
Mitsubishi Endeavor
Saturn Outlook

UAW VANS
Chevrolet Express
Dodge Caravan Ford Econoline
GMC Savana

CAW CARS
Buick Lacrosse
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Impala
Chrysler 300
Dodge Challenger Dodge Charger
Ford Crown Victoria
Lincoln Town Car
Mercury Grand Marquis

CAW SUVs/CUVs
Chevrolet Equinox
Ford Edge
Ford Flex
Lincoln MKT Lincoln MKX
Pontiac Torrent
Suzuki XL7

UAW/CAW PICKUPS
Chevrolet Silverado*/Hybrid GMC Sierra*/Hybrid

UAW/CAW Vans
Chrysler Town & Country
Dodge Caravan Volkswagen Routan

IUE SUVs/CUVs
Chevrolet Trailblazer GMC Envoy

those marked with an asterisk (*) are sourced from the United States and another country.


http://www.unionlabel.org/

[RedCappedBandit]

61. I'll continue to buy whatever used cars I desire . nt

[ohio2007]

62. The push around the world is to boycott america

and boycott links between America and Isralei funded operations






http://www.arabnews.com


http://www.arabnews.com/?page=9§ion=0&article=14462&d=20&m=4&y=2002
or is it already so...yesterday ?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1111203/Cities-world-platform-hundreds-thousands-protesters-Gaza-fighting.html

[SheilaT]

63. Reading the posts here I'm reminded, for some reason,

of the DUers who swear that there is only a WalMart and no other place whatsoever for shopping within some reasonable driving distance of their tiny, isolated, town.

Most of us aren't consistent about many things. I, for one, never go to WalMat. I do own a Honda Civic, and in fact have never owned a car with an American name on it. Why? Because reliability and good gas mileage are my primary considerations. My first two cars were VW bugs, and I bought them back when American cars were considered doing well to get more than 12 miles per gallon. Even though gas was relatively cheap then (I remember it as low as 15cents per gallon during price wars in the 1960's) I never could understand why anyone would buy a car that you had to fill up so frequently.

Plus, we have different needs for our vehicles. Someone who lives out in the country and has a farm really does need a good pick-up truck. Someone who lives in the city but hauls a lot of stuff around also needs a pick-up. I live alone and my Civic is perfect for my needs.

American brand cars (and I can only call them that because some of them are made or assembled outside of the U.S.) have improved significantly in recent decades, but that's mainly because they've had to compete with the quality of the imports. Think about the crap they were making well into the 80's, and thank foreign manufacturers for the improvements. I know I'm going to get flamed for that comment, but it's true. Plus, the U.S. manufacturers have fought tooth and nail against any improvement in gas mileage, and resisted all sorts of improvements.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. No flame from me, Sheila

My husband and I gave up on American made cars after owning several pieces of junk that we had bought mainly because we were trying to support the US auto makers. They are going to have to produce a quality product before they get our business again. I drive a 2006 Scion and absolutely love it. It is more reliable and gets three times the gas mileage my last US made car got. Hubby drives a Honda with close to 200,000 miles on it that is the most reliable vehicle he has ever owned.

We just aren't wealthy enough to take another chance on a vehicle that is as unreliable as the last several American cars we owned.

[Pathwalker]

114. So, it's good to buy foreign cars, but not foreign "goods"?

I have never owned a foreign car, and I never will. I consider that more important than whether or not I purchase a small, inexpensive item from another country - something I always try to avoid. It's not always possible, though. If I did live in the city, I'd want that tiny solar car driven by Bradley Whitford on Monk the other night. Now, that was one nifty ride, even if it wouldn't work so great here in Michigan in the winter. But, I truly do NOT understand the logic of why it's so great to trade our dependence on foreign oil for dependence on foreign cars, or why it's so "unpatriotic" to shop at Walmart because of THEIR foreign goods, when those same goods are also sold at every other store, yet it's "patriotic" to buy a foreign car.

[SheilaT]

150. I honestly think that the most important

thing is that just because a car has an American brand on it, does not necessarily mean it was made in this country. Several posters above have given specific examples of "foreign" cars made here, and "domestic" cars produced elsewhere.

On the other hand, when I buy some little trinket that is clearly labelled "Made in China" I can feel confident it was made there, possibly by slave labor. Guess what? I no longer buy anything that's labelled Made In China if I can possibly avoid it. And it's a genuine dilemma when I go to buy things such as clothes -- it's almost impossible to find anything made in this country to wear. And making my own clothes isn't a solution, even aside from the fact that I don't sew, don't own a sewing machine. I've been told by those who do sew that it is very difficult to find decent fabric any more to make clothes from. And I rather suspect that most of the fabric that is available is made overseas, but I honestly don't know.

Again, reliability and good fuel economy are my number one concerns. I certainly don't call my preference for foreign autos "patriotic" and I don't think anyone here has suggested that. But it's hardly "patriotic" to buy domestic made crap just because it's made here.

And WalMart is by far the biggest offender in offering foreign made junk.

[Pathwalker]

165. I understand the dilemna of buying domestic vs. foreign.

My husband and I work at purchasing American products - it isn't always possible, anymore. You can't even find an American made stereo system, so we just keep fixing our ancient Panasonic, which makes the repair guy salivate just seeing it. Every time we pick it up, he's using it for his store, and only returns it reluctantly. We now have too much invested in it to ever junk it.
As far as the clothing goes - you are correct about fabric now being made overseas, and the quality has suffered greatly. I collect vintage fabrics, most made in America, all designed to last. Some I inherited, including a ten ft. long piece of Irish linen, with the words product of Ireland WOVEN into the fabric. I've never used it, but I take it out from time to time just to rub my hands over it, and love it's quality. Sigh.
Yes, Walmart IS the largest offender, but only because they are the largest company - all the other stores sell the same exact crap, all made in China. They just aren't as large as Walmart. The other stores would gladly take Walmart's place in the market, if they could. Then, we'd yell at them. My son insists that the "Globalization ship" has already sailed, there's no going back, there's no putting that genie back in the bottle, and we serfs can do nothing to turn back the clock on it.We can only live with it as best we can. Like you - I do my best to find and buy American. That's really all we can do, I think.

PS: I do own a sewing machine, but don't bother making my own clothing, either. With today's fabric, it would be a waste of time. I think the last thing I sewed was a curtain made from very old women's handkerchiefs. I figured I needed to get some use out of them. :shrug:

[lib2DaBone]

65. Before we can buy American...We need American Jobs...

... Our so-called public servants in CONgress have screwed us. Sent our jobs to China and Mexico so their big Corporate Buddies could benefit.

NAFTA gave us the SHAFTA!

We need to reverse the horrible tax laws that reward companies for taking jobs overseas.

[Indepatriot]

107. Grew up in Detroit

Watched my once proud city gutted by the greed and stuipidity of those "in charge" during the mid 70's. The Japanese handed their lazy," we'll put a new grille on it and call it the ALL NEW SUX 6000!" asses to them. Many of my friends Dads lost their jobs, were told to "re-train" for new jobs. Lots of Alcoholism, child/spousal abuse,suicides, and people fleeing the city for opportunity. I fled as well. 28 years later and the big 3 have learned almost nothing. They just keep crankin out F-150's and Suburbans, while Japan, Korea, (and many unheeded big 3 engineers) look to the future. In 2004 I bought my first new car ever, a Honda Accord made in Ohio. I drove the Impala,Taurus, Lesabre, before the Honda, nice cars, but not even close to the ride,quality,fit and finish of the Honda.I was seriously conflicted, I'd always driven American before; Camaro/Firebird/Rambler/Satallite/Comet/Monte Carlo/Dodge Van. I called my Father, a life-time Teamster who hauled Caddies out of Detroit for 35 years, for advice. His advice, " If you think the Honda is the best car buy the Honda."A few years later my wife and I went back to Detroit to visit. We rented a brand-new Impala for 2 weeks Impala to get around. My wife has NO mechanical aptitude, and could care less about cars other than as transportation. She drove the Imapla from the rental joint about 5 miles to my folk's house and when we got home she sez; "that Chevy's a piece of junk compared to our Accord! She drives a FORD RANGER, and likes it, but still swipes my Accord whenever she can. WHEN (IF) DETROIT MAKES THE BEST CARS I"LL BUY AMERICAN AGAIN. I go out of my way to buy American Made Clothing,Appliances,Bicycles,etc....but refuse to buy crap in the name of mindless "Patriotism." I'm hoping GM makes the Volt happen, hoping the big 3 can get it together and regain their greatness, but I'm very doubtful that's gonna happen.... However, if Obama can get elected almost anything can happen! Hope,Change, for Detroit.

[8 track mind]

68. just for kicks i went to Chevy's website

I need a new van, a simple cargo van. I want a few amenities like a/c, a cd player, and a trailer hitch. I also want flex fuel capability but i can only get it with the 5.3L V-8. So i do a build my own on the Chevy website and something like that would set me back...........

$30,000

Half of what my house is worth. I would love to buy American, but i simply can't afford it. I'll stick with used vehicles.

[DainBramaged]

71. Oh really?

edit to follow

1500 Regular Wheelbase Rear-Wheel Drive MSRP $24,365 Hide Details

Air bags, frontal, driver and right-front passenger (Includes passenger-side air bag deactivation switch on models with (C6P) 8600 lbs. (3901 kg) GVWR and above. Not available with (ZX1) driver only high-back bucket seat or (AJ3) driver side only frontal air bag. Never place a rear-facing infant restraint in the front seat of any vehicle equipped with an active frontal air bag. Always use safety belts and the correct child restraints for your child's age and size, even in vehicles equipped with air bags. Children are safer when properly secured in a rear seat. See the vehicle's Owner's Manual and child safety seat instructions for more safety information.)
Air conditioning, single-zone manual (STD)
Alternator 145 amps. Included with rear air conditioning, Hotel Shuttle Package or Duramax 6.6L Turbo Diesel V8 engine without Ambulance Package.
Assist handle, front passenger
Audio system, radio provisions only. Includes alarm warning chimes, radio wiring harness, radio antenna and 2 front door speakers (STD)
Battery, 600 cold-cranking amps, maintenance-free with rundown protection and retained accessory power
Body, standard (STD)
Brake/transmission shift interlock, for automatic transmissions
Brakes, 4-wheel antilock, 4-wheel disc
Bumpers, front and rear painted Black with step-pad (Not available with (ZR7) Chrome Appearance Package.)
Console, engine cover with open storage bin
Cup holders, 3 on the engine console cover
Daytime Running Lamps
Defogger, side windows
Door beams, steel-side
Door, swing-out passenger-side, 60/40 split (STD)
Driver Information Center, includes fuel range, average speed, oil life, tire pressure monitoring, fuel used, ice warning, engine hours, average fuel economy, tachometer, and maintenance reminders. Compass and outside temperature available if equipped.
Engine Vortec 4.3L V6 MFI (195 hp <145.4 kW> @ 4600 rpm, 260 lb-ft of torque <351.0 N-m> @ 2800 rpm)
Exhaust, aluminized stainless-steel muffler and tailpipe
Floor covering, full-length Black rubberized-vinyl (Not standard with (YF2) Ambulance Package.)
Frame, full-length box ladder-type
Fuel tank capacity, mid-frame and approximately 31 gallons (117.3L)
GVWR, 7300 lbs. (3311 kg) (Standard on **13405 models. Reference the Engine/Axle page for availability.)
Glass, Solar-Ray light-tinted, all windows
Grille, Black composite with single rectangular halogen headlamps (Not available with (ZR7) Chrome Appearance Package.)
Headlamps, single halogen (Not available with (ZR7) Chrome Appearance Package.)
Headliner, cloth, over driver and passenger
Instrumentation, analog with speedometer, odometer with trip odometer, fuel level, voltmeter, engine temperature and oil pressure
License plate kit, front
Lighting, interior with 2 dome lights, defeat switch and door handle-activated switches
Mirror, inside rearview manual day/night (Included and only available with (A12) fixed rear door window glass or (A18) rear cargo door window swing-out glass.)
Mirrors, outside manual, Black
Oil life monitor
Power outlets, 2 auxiliary on engine console cover with covers, 12-volt
Rear axle, 3.42 ratio
Rear wheel drive
Seating arrangement, driver and front passenger high-back buckets, adjustable with head restraints and vinyl or cloth trim (STD)
Seats, front bucket with vinyl trim and outboard head restraints (STD)
Steering wheel, steel sleeve column with theft-deterrent locking feature, Black
Steering, power
Suspension, front independent with coil springs and stabilizer bar (Requires *G***05 models.)
Suspension, rear hypoid drive axle with multi-leaf springs
Theft-deterrent system, vehicle, PASS-Key III
Tire Pressure Monitoring System (does not apply to spare tire)
Tire, spare P245/70R17 all-season, blackwall (STD)
Tires, front P245/70R17 all-season, blackwall (STD)
Tires, rear P245/70R17 all-season, blackwall (STD)
Tow/haul mode selector, instrument panel-mounted
Transmission 4-speed automatic, electronically controlled with overdrive, tow/haul mode and internal transmission oil cooler
Visors, driver and front passenger, padded
Warning tones, headlamp on and key-in-ignition
Wheels, 4 - 17" x 7" (43.2 cm x 17.8 cm) steel, includes steel spare (Requires **13405 models.)
Wipers, front intermittent wet-arm with pulse wash
With the flex-fuel V* and the cd radio I come up with total msrp $25,460 before dealer discounts and incentives. And if you find a 2008 (which you will) you'll get it for under $20,000.


And see if you can find a Foreign van he same size and/or cargo capacity, you can't.

[8 track mind]

108. yes, really

And for what it's worth, I'm a union worker, Teamsters Local 977

I hate Foreign Vans, so i wouldn't even buy one in the first place.

(however i wouldn't mind a 60's VW van)

anyway,

State of Texas, zip code 76010


2009 Express Cargo Van

RWD 1500 135"



Color

* Medium Pewter, Custom Cloth Seat Trim

$0

* Victory red

$0
Packages

* Chrome Appearance Package, Includes front and rear chrome bumpers and chrome grille with dual composite halogen headlamps. Included with Express Access Plus Package, Ambulance Package or Hotel Shuttle Package.

$355

* Convenience Package, Power windows and door locks

$475
Mechanical

* Transmission, 4-speed automatic, electronically controlled with overdrive, tow/haul mode and internal transmission oil cooler

$0

* Engine, Vortec 5.3L V8 SFI (301 hp <224.4 kW> @ 5200 rpm, 325 lb-ft of torque <438.8 N-m> @ 4500 rpm)

$995

* Differential, Heavy-duty locking rear. (a must have for dirt roads when it rains)

$325

* Engine, E85 FlexFuel capability. Requires Vortec 5.3L V8 SFI engine. Not available with swing-out driver-side door.

$0
Exterior

* Door, Sliding passenger-side. Includes trim panel standard on sliding door only. Not available with swing-out driver-side door, Hotel Shuttle Package or Express Access.

$150

* Glass, Fixed rear doors and side cargo doors. May upgrade fixed glass to swing-out glass, see rear cargo door windows swing-out glass. Upgrade requires rear side door and rear door window swing-out glass. Included with Hotel Shuttle Package.

$130

* Tires, Spare P245/70R17 all-season, White outlined-letter

$0

* Bumpers, Front and rear chrome with step-pad. Included with Chrome Appearance Package.

$65

* Tires, Front P245/70R17 all-season, White outlined-letter

$0
Interior

* Trim panel delete, Rear side and rear doors

($95)

* Seats, Front bucket with Custom Cloth trim, head restraints and inboard armrests. Includes console with swing-out storage bin.

$50

* Outside temperature display, Located in the Driver Information Center.

$10

* Remote Keyless Entry, With 2 transmitters and remote panic button. Requires Convenience Package

$170

* Console, Engine cover with swing-out storage bin

$20

* Door locks, Power with lock-out protection

$250
Audio

* Audio system, AM/FM stereo with CD player, seek-and-scan, digital clock, TheftLock, random select and 2 front door speakers

$355

comes to 28,265.00. By the time you add TT&L in the State of Texas, Plus Finance Charges, $30G, easy.


Now in stark comparison here's what i paid for my present van

1995 Chevrolet G20 cargo van (ex-airborne express delivery van) $1500
used 1977 4 bolt main 350 V-8 short block, $75
Machine work, parts (very nice pistons, mild camshaft) $750 (Did the engine assembely and installation myself...)

Transmission overhaul (4L60E), upgraded with Corvette internals, $650

New ball joints, tie rod ends, idler arm, pitman arm, for the front end, $250

Really trick polyurethane bushings from progressive suspension for the front end $125

Exaust work, $150

Total, $3500 totally paid for in cash

I reworked the computer programming to burn E85. All i have to do is switch the chip (PROM) out it takes 1 min to do.

[DainBramaged]

111. Then why the big deal if you already own one that fits your need?

(sigh) bluster, it's what made Hannity famous. You simply wanted to prove to everybody you own a cheap house (is it a double wide?).

[Kajsa]

73. I have done this,

vis-a vis owning a Volvo,
which is now owned by Ford.

[southpaw]

77. My Honda was assembled in Lincoln, Alabama

Many people I personally know... some of them relatives... work in the plant where my car was built. Many other people I know, my wife included, are employed by plants that supply the Honda factory.

All of the people who work at these plants are Americans.

There are also Hyundai and Mercedes plants in Alabama that employ lots of people.

I'd rather not buy a POS GM, Ford or Chrysler at the behest of a bumper sticker slogan that doesn't reflect reality.

[DainBramaged]

79. Send those dollars overseas, and thanks for your support of American made "POS".

Hypocrite, you are a perfect example of Shelby think. Those right to work Rethugs really have you brainwashed.

[southpaw]

91. I came to my Honda honestly

Every vehicle I have owned since I could drive was either a Ford (Cougar, Pinto) GM (Silverado, S-10, Regal, Cavalier) or Crysler (2 Intrepids, Voyager mini-van)

All crap.

The best of the lot was the 1977 Buick Regal... and it crapped out at just over 100k.

My wife put 235k miles on her Toyota Celica before selling it to her sister... it is still purring along with nearly 300k miles on it.

I wish Alabama auto workers were unionized... hopefully they will be one day.

But giving Honda a shot because all my "American" cars have been shitty doesn't make me a hypocrite... just pragmatic.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iamthebandfanman]

99. i know, how dare him!

how dare him select a car that will probably out live any 'american' companies and need less repair and maintenence and the whole time cost the same or less at sticker price at a dealership.

how dare him be sensable with his money!

what a hypcocrit!


</end sarcasm>

[deadmessengers]

205. And that's what the Big3 apologists would like you to ignore

the fact is that these so-called "foreign" cars are being made by American workers. These American workers have the same need to feed their families as everyone else - the "Buy American" bullshit artists here don't want people to think that way. They would like us to believe that there is a small army of 'furriners' who don't look like us out there plotting day and night to destroy America. They would rather have us all think that people like the Alabamans who made your Honda and the Indianans who made mine aren't really American, because the profits from the cars they produce end up in the pockets of a non-American CEO, and in smaller quantities to boot.

They're pretty much ready to throw the Americans who work for non-US companies under a string of (American-made, natch) buses. It's repulsive, and I won't stand for it.

[Bonobo]

251. US Corporatiions are not US corporations.

Tax shelters, executive bonuses in the hundreds of millions, a pay ratio of 1000 to 1 for execs vs. workers as compared with 100:1 for Japanese companies?

I am comfortable with my car purchases and do not plan to change, thanks.

[earthlite]

78. It's hard to find basic goods still made in the USA

John Smith started the day early having set his Alarm clock



* (MADE IN JAPAN )
* For 6am.
* While his coffeepot
*
* (MADE IN CHINA )
*
* Was perking, he shaved with his
*
* Electric razor
*
* (MADE IN HONG KONG ).
*
* He put on a
*
* Dress shirt

#
# (MADE IN SRI LANKA ),
#
# Designer jeans

#
# (MADE IN SINGAPORE )
#
# And
#
# Tennis shoes
#
# (MADE IN KOREA
# )
# After cooking his breakfast in his new
#
# Electric skillet
#
# (MADE IN INDIA )
#
# He sat down with his
#
# Calculator

#
# (MADE IN MEXICO )
#
# To see how much he could spend today.
#
# After setting his
#
# Watch
#
# (MADE IN TAIWAN )
#
# To the radio
#
# (MADE IN INDIA )
#
# He got in his car
#
# (MADE IN GERMANY )
#
# Filled it with GAS
#
# (from Saudi Arabia)
#
# And continued his search
#
# For a good paying
#
# AMERICAN JOB.
#
# At the end
#
# Of yet another discouraging
#
# And fruitless day
#
# Checking his
#
# Computer
#
# (Made In Malaysia),
#
# Joe decided to relax for a while.
#
# He put on his sandals
#
# (MADE IN BRAZIL )
#
# Poured h im self a glass of
#
# Wine
#
# (MADE IN FRANCE )
#
# And turned on his
#
# TV
#
# (MADE IN INDONESIA ),
#
# And then wondered
#
# Why he can't find
#
# A good paying job
#
# In AMERICA .

[OhioChick]

81. A little too late, perhaps?

While I do my best to "Buy American", I really don't know what that means, anymore.

Here's an example:

IT Customers Closely Monitor Satyam Scandal

A Ford spokesman said the company also has a number of existing relationships with other Indian outsourcing companies. It's unclear whether Ford can or will ditch Satyam as a vendor. "We are currently evaluating the situation and are not prepared to make any comments at this time," he said. Still, those additional relationships could prove critical.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/management/outsourcing/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=212701699

GM and Chrysler's IT departments are also over in India.

Now, as an IT professional, why would I want to support ANY company that ships jobs in abundance overseas and buy their products? They're screwing me over, yet want me to "Buy American." Exactly, how "American" are corporations being? :shrug:

[DavidMS]

160. Not suprised

I am also in IT and having seen how easy it is to mess up a contract (was on the receiving end of it), if you want it done right, do it in house. Its easier to monitor and supervise.

I remember recently being thrilled that I could get a set of stacking tempered glass bowls that were made in America by UAW members. They sit on my shelf now.

I will look for an American Union Made car as my next car, but I am mostly looking for sturdy, reliable, efficient, safe and easy/cheap to maintain. Something a little smaller than the Camry I drive now. Its probably going to be 2010/2011 that I seriously consider replacement.

Though the problem goes further. I saw a Compaq / HP desktop from the merger era and it had a board stating it was designed in Texas in whatever city Compaq was based and had the initials of the hardware design team screen printed on it. Modern HP machines just have an HP Invent logo on the main board which is a disservice to the design team.

To fix the stuff not made in America problem, don't just rail against it, require that the manufacturer sticks around long enough to service and support the product. Or have the Federal Government and states assist with starting up high tech manufacturing. Plenty of little things (like passive electronic components) could be made here. Additionally ban states from competing with benefits other than location and access to pre-existing infrastructure when competing for siting a facility. Have a standard relocation package that only covers facilities that move as part of a national plan (I.E. siting several chip foundries in upstate NY to get locational benefits because there is a bunch of stuff from AMD/IBM up there. Or making a national decision to concentrate machine tool production in Springfield Vermont (it used to be big there) or somewhere in Ohio or wherever. This could even extend to picking some low wage state and encouraging some types of product assembly there to boost wages and keep jobs here. Just remember to put several dissimilar industries in each area to prevent company town syndrome.

I know that republicans will scream socialism, but its just smart economic policy. Get a critical mass and no-one will want to move.

Its industrial policy, not people's buying habits that are the problem.

[ChromeFoundry]

254. I agree with the "Buy American" idea, but...

it is getting harder and harder for me to stomach these corporations (Ford, GM, Chrysler) outsourcing all their IT work offshore to India, China and Brazil. I have never owned a car made by a foreign owned company because I was raised to believe that when you purchase a foreign car, you put five US workers out of a job... I still believe that.

Recently on DU, there was a thread where an IT worker mentioned that he wished there was and IT Workers Union, much like the UAW and Teamsters. The abuse the OP received from Union workers was sickening. They pretty much told him that he has to stand-up and lose his job to unionize IT, because that is what had to happen in areas that are unionized now. Do these people actually believe that they have sacrificed anything by "accepting" a union job?

If the Auto Workers and Manufactures what me to continue to Buy American... Then they better rethink how they have outsourced much of their IT jobs. If you want to eat the cake, then you better be willing to stand in the kitchen with the hot oven. If they want to continue to cut corners by outsourcing to India and China... Next time I purchase a car, SO WILL I.

[OhioChick]

264. I wholeheartedly agree. n/t

[roamer65]

86. These people need to check new car lots.

A good chunk of cars under "American" nameplates are made in foreign countries. Many of the "foreign" nameplates are made in the US or Canada. You really have to work to find a UAW made car.

These folks need to do some homework.

My Chevy Colorado is UAW made and the next car will be UAW. I don't agree with "nameplate" loyalty. I think we need to support UAW made.

[DainBramaged]

89. It amazes me how the members here defend Foreign purchases

and we're supposed to be the Party of the people, the worker, Union assembly and the right to form Unions to protect our jobs from the same corporations you are all defending. How sad you all claim to be Liberals when you base your life around supporting Foreign governments. You'll skewer Wal-Mart but buy a Toyota, rail against the drug companies but buy your Chinese made IPod, scream against the injustices of pot laws, but make sure you get that Nintendo game for your kids.


Fuck it. DU is not a friend of the blue collar worker or Unions, I am convinced now.

[bertman]

252. DB, Since you sent me a pm chewing on my ass but you don't allow pm's to YOU

I'll just take the opportunity here to say that I buy American-made every chance I get. The company that I co-own buys all of its workers' apparel from U.S. union-shop companies that sport the label "Union made in America". I avoid buying anything from China. Period. Although, it's very difficult to do nowadays. Whenever possible I buy American. And, as I pointed out in my earlier post that you apparently didn't read very thoroughly, I currently own two American made vehicles. It's my wife and family members who buy foreign vehicles.

So, please don't offer any more of your condescending bullshit accusing me of being anti-union. I understand that you are angry with me because I don't agree with your point of view, but it does not help your case when you chastise others just because they don't agree with every sentence you post.

[certainot]

90. but don't buy the local products sold on limbaugh radio stations

the 600 limbaugh stations and all the other right wing stations that blast the country with GOP propaganda have been wrong about EVERYTHING important and were critical in getting us into this bush disaster. they continue to enable a lazy celebrity corporate media with their coordinated UNCONTESTED repetition of GOP lies, distortions, threats and propaganda, feeding them a daily smorgasbord of prechewed talking points and framing.

turn your local limbaugh station on once in a while to get the names of the local sponsors of his show, call them and ask them if they agree with limbaugh when he says things like "obamas head needs to roll" (sept 10, 2008), or any of the other threats, lies, and racism those stations fill their communities with every day without giving anyone the opportunity to contest them on air.

[quidam56]

93. Soon, NA$CAR will be called JAPCAR !

http://www.wisecountyissues.com

[iamthebandfanman]

95. stop making crappy cars!

and maybe people will buy them more!


of any industry, the auto industry has least right to complain about foriegn competition.

they screwed themselves.

has nothing to do with low payed workers or making something cheaper somewhere...
they simply got out businessed.
end of story.

they screwed themselves.



where were these buy american auto folks 10 years ago when everything else thats made in the states went somewhere else?

[DainBramaged]

106. And two posts down you say Saturn is the only car you'll own?

Which way is the wind blowing for you today? We don't make crappy cars, but hey, go with the rest it's the DU way.

[mdmc]

96. 8th

r

[donco6]

97. I like . . . REALLY like . . . my new Ford Escape Hybrid.

I've owned BMWs (2), Volvo, Toyota, . . . all good cars. But compared to the BMW X3, and at $20,000 less, AND hybrid . . . I really, really like my Escape. I'm getting 32 mpg for a 4WD (I have to travel to the mountains regularly, so that's a non-negotiable). I love the Sync - I use it all the time with my iPod and iPhone. It's a great car and I'm very pleased.

[tilsammans]

101. I WANTED to buy a new Saturn . . .

. . . when my much-loved 11-year-old Saturn was about to give up. But I need a small wagon/hatchback, and at the time, Saturn didn't make one (they do now). SUVs and minivans are too much car for me.

So I opted for a Toyota Matrix, which has been very reliable and fuel efficient. But I must say, I really miss my Saturn. :cry:

[iamthebandfanman]

102. saturn is the only GM car ill ever buy again

and from what i hear that mite not be an option in the future (word on the street is GM is gonna close saturn and its plants)

[tilsammans]

109. Saturn has a lot of good, old-fashioned brand loyalty . . .

. . . and here, GM could pull the plug on all of it. :wtf:

[JCMach1]

279. I loved my '89 Buick... 200K+ and no major problems

Sold it for $500 in 2003 and I still see it on the road when I come home to the states....

[exboyfil]

202. Any particular reason you went with a Matrix

and not a Pontiac Vibe? They are effectively the same car.

Two months ago I had a Pontiac dealer come off $3200 from a $19,000 Vibe. He was also willing to give me $1,000 for my wife's 1996 Ford Escort wagon with body damage.

I plan to go out again now and see if I can better this offer. I know Pontiac is running rebates, $1,500 total including cash back and customer loyalty. I am also sitting on filled up earnings to $2,000 for my GM card.

My goal is to get that $19,000 Vibe down to about $11,000-$12,000 when you include the trade in, dealer reductions, incentives, and the GM card.

It will be a very nice car for my wife to have for the next 10-12 years. Her Escort has lasted 13 years, and it still gets around but we are starting to put serious money into it.

[tilsammans]

304. The Toyota dealer was only about a mile from where I worked at the time . . .

. . . and I was working 60+ hours a week, so I didn't have a lot of options. Bought it off the lot. My Saturn was fading fast, and I had to buy a car in a hurry.

Good luck with getting a great deal on the Vibe!

[southernyankeebelle]

105. How Nobel but

Its not the matter wheather we buy american or not. We need fair trade and equal rights for employees. If these foreign companies come in than they should be paid what american companies pay and if jobs are overseas than those companies should pay wages americans get. What is happening is that foreign companies are coming here and bringing wages down. We must uphold the fair trade laws from country to country.

[DainBramaged]

112. I'd would be nice if that was a cause here on DU, but sadly don't take their Foreign iron away

[Dreamer Tatum]

115. Here are some problems with Buy American

1. The only way the automakers can sustain the current scale of business is if people not only buy American,
but buy American OFTEN. When people defend American quality here, they often cite their vehicle, which has
400,000 miles. Detroit doesn't want you to buy a car every 20 years - it wants you to buy one every 2-3 years.
That level of unsustainable purchasing activity is the only thing that would sustain the indistry as it exists
today.

2. If every American buyer of foreign cars (right down to fleet purchases for rental car companies, municipalities,
etc.) switched to American makers, then lots of Americans would still lose their jobs...just in a different place.
UAW workers and American-maker white collar workers are not better than anyone else just because they make American-branded
cars.

3. A substantial portion of the current crisis has to do with liquidity: credit markets are still frozen for buyers
and for companies trying to build cars. Even in today's bad economy, there is some latent demand for vehicles that
is now more likely to (a) do nothing, (b) buy a cheaper used car, or (c) extend the life of the car(s) they already drive.
In other words, there is no Buy American crisis per se; instead, there is a Buy Anything crisis.

4. Perception is reality, and there is still a perception that American cars are junk. There is no question whatsoever
that, on average, American cars hold less of their value over time. There are only two American cars on the latest ranking
of top resale values>,and even these are for specialty vehicles. Unfortunately, now is not the time to get people to
switch from foreign cars to domestic if they have a chip on their shoulder, even if some American cars are
gaining in initial quality.


Doesn't mean people shouldn't buy American, but the benefits of doing it might not be as substantial as people think.

[FarCenter]

157. The Detroit companies also equated "small" with "cheap"

The marketing mentality was that small cars were cheap, poorly made vehicles for first-time buyers, who would naturally trade up in a few years to large, expensive, better made vehicles.

Unfortunately this still seems to be true --

Kelly Blue Book predicts that a Honda Civic DX Coupe will retain about 60% of its value at 4 years, while it predicts that the Chevy Cobalt LS will retain about 35% of its value at 4 years.

[tilsammans]

119. A couple of car-shopping friends were treated with indifference . . .

. . . at local Big Three showrooms recently. Amazing! :wtf: They went there first so they could buy American. Instead, they were met with ho-hum sales staff.

Result: They both bought Hondas.

[DainBramaged]

124. And people I know were treated like children at the Toyota dealer

and they bought Ford's, yada yada yada.......:silly:

[Romulox]

285. I once got bad service at a Big Boy's in Altoona. Haven't left ANY waitperson a tip since. nt

[Endangered Specie]

120. How about I just don't buy anything?

My car (a Ford) has almost 200,000 miles on it. I intend to drive it until it splits down the middle.

I figure if it takes me an extra $~600 a year to keep it running (that is, 600 more than it would a new car), thats $50 a month, much better than a $200+/month car payment! So far I'd say I only have had to put in $300 'extra' a year.

[Blue Fire]

123. American auto-makers are just beginning to see the light.

For decades, beginning with the post WWII economic boom, Detroit designed their cars with built-in obsolescence and short life spans. After all, longevity, long-term reliability, and low maintenance costs wouldn't be conducive for Americans to trade in and up every few years. Then along came foreign made cars that eclipsed American-made in every key aspect - initial cost, reliability, maintenance costs, fuel economy, but as long as Americans had money to spend and easy access to credit, they were largely scoffed at.
But the hard economic downturn has come to haunt the Detroit marketing philosophy of building cars, while Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai, already have reputations much more appealing for our new penny-pinching times. We currently have a 2000 Windstar with 140K that still runs well but needs the occasional maintenance expense, and we'll nurse that as long as we can since it's paid for. But it's up to Detroit if our next new vehicle is built by Ford, Chrysler, or GM, or made in America by one of the foreign owned companies.

[Yukari Yakumo]

125. Stupid in many ways

How many Fords are still being made in the US? And you wanna bet most of what those two are wearing was not made in the USA?

Though one part gets me...

"If people continue to buy foreign cars, this won't be America for long."

Doesn't that strike as being a tad xenophobic?

[Night_Nurse]

126. Here's an interesting list...

From CNN.com:

Here is a list of companies we've confirmed are "Exporting America." These are U.S. companies either sending American jobs overseas, or choosing to employ cheap overseas labor, instead of American workers.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler are ALL on this list. (Nope, scratch that, Chrysler isn't on this list, but they're partly a German company already, so...) Stop blaming Americans for not buying "American" autos - blame the greedy, private-jet flying CEOs that ran your company into the ground.

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/popups/exporting.america/content.html

edit for typo/correction

[tilsammans]

133. Thanks for posting that

A real eye opener.

The company I work for is on that list . . . don't get me started . . . :grr:

[stox]

128. Buying Foreign can be good for America

When we buy from countries that have a balanced trade with us. The problems emerge when we buy products from countries who do not buy a proportionate share of product from us. Worst of all are those countries that steal our intellectual property. For example, if China actually paid for all the products that they pirate from American companies, there would not be anywhere near the trade deficit we have.

[L0oniX]

131. While everyone out there is buying a 9mm Glock, I bought a SW9F Smith & Wesson ...made in America.

It was cheaper too.

[deadmessengers]

200. You sure about Glock?

For years I used to drive past a *really* big Glock facility on my way into work - this was in Smyrna, GA. From the looks of it, I'm pretty sure that at least part of that building was a manufacturing facility. I've got a pretty limited base of knowledge about firearms, but I remember that building pretty clearly.

[L0oniX]

210. They have Austria printed on the sides of Glock 17

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg15-e.htm

[deadmessengers]

215. Interesting

You can see on the weapons in those photos that it says "Made in Austria - Glock Inc, Smyrna, GA." Now I'm wondering what that big industrial building does, then - it's definitely a Glock facility - there's a big old sign right at the street.

[L0oniX]

218. could be the distributer

[Hansel]

135. Good. It has to start somewhere.

Even if it starts with just the small tickets items. If consumers push in this direction and Obama directs stimulus to American small business and his leadership encourages supporting American companies and workers, eventually more American products will become available.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that Obama is the most valuable and powerful marketer this country has seen in decades, if not in ever. Even the major corporations will catch on that the way to make money is to produce products and provide services in America. (Look at the ad campaigns. How long do you think Obama is going to let them get away with using his brand without calling them out on their hypocrisy?)

As Obama says, we are in the process of rebuilding America. Apathy is so 2000's. It's time to get over the can't do attitude. I think that is what the slogan "yes we can" is all about.

Yes we can!

Edited to add: I think this movement will inspire a pride in what Americans produce and along with the increase in the quantity of American made products available will come an increase in quality. Count on it.

[kestrel91316]

138. My lat American car was completely shot after 6 years of not-very-heavy

use. My Japanese car has lasted 20 years.

It's an economic decision, which to buy. I'm sure American car manufacturers understand that. For some reason they don't care.

Throwaway cars are never gonna sell as well as cars that last.

[DainBramaged]

140. So it's been 26 years since you owned an American car?

Nice comparison, and typical mindset here. :wtf:

[treestar]

145. So dumb and oversimplified

What of the people whose jobs depend on international trade?

It's just not that simple.

[DainBramaged]

149. So we're dumb?

Thanks.

[acmavm]

156. Well, if it's a choice between our own country or another, who's side are

you one.

Nope, its not simple. Someone has to sacrifice. And everyone thinks it should be the other guy.

Well, maybe it's you.

[Jawja]

159. Well, Ihave been purchasing more wine from California and

Oregon and less imported from Italy and France in order to help the Americans.

I've been enjoying it, too! :beer:

[FarCenter]

179. Do UAW members support the local craft brewers?

Or do they drink Miller (owned by SAB), Budweiser (owned by Imbev) or Coors (notoriously hostile to workers)?

[DainBramaged]

184. I don't drink, but my friends drank American until they were bought by Foreign entities

Should I poll them, call them to make your point? Wait, I'll get on the phone now, hold that thought. :eyes:

Nice try at trapping me, but give me a couple of days to ask everyone and I'll get back to you. BTW any brewery in particular, or is it your brew of the week from the liquor store you're pushing? Oh and do you shop at Wal-Mart?

I JUST called my friends the Rocco brothers, they drink Labats and Rolling Rock, is that good enough for you?

[FarCenter]

212. They are foreign beers

In 1995, Labatt was acquired by the large Belgian multinational brewer InBev (then Interbrew), the world market leader.

Rolling Rock is owned by Anheuser Busch, now also acquired by Interbrew.

[FarCenter]

232. Try River Horse from Lambertville

[MrsBrady]

267. Miller is still union BTW! n/t

[deadmessengers]

217. You're not missing anything.

California and Oregon wines (the Erath label from Oregon has been particularly good) are just wonderful stuff. And, when I visited Italy last year, a good half of the bottles of wine I saw on menus there was from California. I drank Italian wine while I was there, though - it was a hell of a lot cheaper than the CA wines.

[Geek_Girl]

161. I own a ford escape and a honda civic hybrid

I've owned mostly fords and Honda's. I think the fords are crap but my husband likes them. I bought the hybrid when the price of gas skyrocketed. I prefer to drive small economy sized vehicles my husband prefers the larger vehicles. I guess it's all in what consumers are buying. Right now gas prices are a real concern and American automakers are jut doing poorly IMHO when it comes to making small vehicles with low gas mileage.

I can't blame Americans who buy vehicles in order to reduce emissions and conserve energy. In fact I would encourage it regardless if the Company is American or Foreign.

[Odin2005]

163. Idiots that claim that domestic cars are "junk" either...

1. Haven't bought a domestic car since the 80s when they were junk.

2. Are being mind-fucked by the "if you tell a lie often enough people start believe it" effect being used by the Asian car makers and those such as certain group of Southern congressmen that want to destroy Detroit and the UAW.


IMO it's time for tariffs.

[DainBramaged]

168. That "certain group" is out in force in this thread

My ass is raw from the beating today, but I have plenty of A&D. :fistbump:

[FarCenter]

173. The '94 Saturn 4-cylinder was still junk

Heavy oil consumption after about 60K miles.

Most people have friends and relatives with Detroit cars. I have relatives in Detroit who drive Detroit cars so they won't suffer retribution.

Lots of us from time to time drive rentals, which are usually Detroit models.

[DainBramaged]

177. And a 2007 Kia Optima is still junk, worth HALF of it's retail value

After one full model year. Your point?

[FarCenter]

195. Kia used to be tied with Ford and Mazda

I'd generally not buy Korean products. After long years of being a US satellite, they've become too much like the US.

And KIA is now owned by Hyundai. I've had Hyundai's as rentals longer ago, and I was not impressed. A relative has an Elantra that's a few years old and it seems OK, but I'm skeptical.

Toyota-Lexus, Honda-Acura, Subaru, BMW, Audi, and Mercedes seem to be the quality nameplates.

[BobRossi]

204. Amen! nt

[torbird]

178. MAKE DECENT CARS AND I WILL CONSIDER IT

Buy crap just because a heap of morons says I should? Why didn't I think of that! Good idea!

When American automakers change AT THE TOP and produce a quality product in an environmentally-responsible way, I'll buy American. But until then, every time someone says "support America! Buy American!" as though I am the problem (rather than the idiots calling the misfires at GM, Ford, and Chrysler), I'll remind them that American cars are pieces of crap.

[DainBramaged]

180. "Click"

Not worth the effort. (Must be part of the Shelby crew.)

[Night_Nurse]

181. DainBramaged, you keep blaming people who buy Toyotas, Hondas, etc...

for the Big Three's troubles, and while that is understandable seeing as we are an easy target for your rage, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the Big Three's outsourcing of IT jobs to India, or building cars in Mexico/Canada, or outsourcing suppliers. I think you're attacking the wrong people, IMHO.

[DainBramaged]

188. First, I have posed extensively over the years on that subject (too bad you weren't here)

Secondly, I AM the SYSADMIN at my shop (over 100 employees), because of my handicaps I can't do physical labor any longer, is that a good enough reply? You could read my Journal if you wanted some answers, couldn't you? It's there for everyone to read, and it's quite extensive.

[Night_Nurse]

193. Ok, I will read it... thanks for letting me know. nt

[create.peace]

326. why are you so nasty? your points get lost in your snarkiness

for the record i bought a new 89 dodge grand caravan and after the first year when the tranny had to be replaced three times (they put in a new engine at my insistence in case there had been damage from frequent red lining due to the tranny glitch) i absolutely loved it, and it was relatively low maintenance, got high 20s mpg, and only died at 241,000mi when a negligent mechanic caused a fire, and it was totalled. i am sure it would have given me another couple hundred thou. we eventually replaced it with a 2,000 dollar used p;y voyager, with 111,000 mi. we have had to replace stuff, but generally happy with it. it has over 210K now.

we tried to use domestic small rvs (we travel to craft shows to sell our kansas made art/craft) but had so many disasters en route, that we are confirmed toyota rvers. the bombproof 22R motor can't be beat, and it can be worked on in our yard.

i am with the guy who up thread said 'why buy?' - if i lived in a city i would not own a car. i would have my toyota rv for traveling to shows, but i would use the transit, bike and walk. my daughter gave up her car in seattle and has saved so much money. she takes the train to portland once a month, and it still is cheaper than maintaining a car- she also has a bus pass.

this really could be a great thread without all the acrimony.

[deadmessengers]

185. Proud owner of an American-made Honda and a Canadian-made Ford here.

Which one of these is the American car, again? I'm confused.

[paparush]

196. Coporate Welfare, Tax Havens, Outsourcing..when these things are addressed

and remedied, then I'll consider "buying American"

[DainBramaged]

198. Got to go , seeing Marley and Me bye later, syanara, Cyas

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

199. I just bought my first American car, a Honda made in Ohio

The "foreign" auto makers have been manufacturing in America since I was in diapers, there is not a single Detroit made car in the price range of my new Honda Accord that I wanted - that isn't a failing of me that is a failing of Detroit, although the Ford dealer seemed to be implying I was gay for not wanting the Ford Edge SUB (Sport Utility Blob) that just appeared to be a pile of excess metal and redundant weight dumped on a Taurus chasis. Real effective salespitch there Salvatore.

[deadmessengers]

207. Try bringing a female with you - seriously.

I've gotten the "appeal to masculinity", "this is a man's car" salespitch before when shopping on my own. I bring the wife with me now, every time - it blunts that argument entirely. Bring your wife/girlfriend/mom/aunt/sister/female friend with you - car shopping will be a totally different experience for you.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

216. not my female,

She is a thirty-something adolescent that drives an S2000 and 1960's Jeep I am scared to death of riding in and would of been tag-teaming me with the salesmen. It was actually her dad who found the Honda I bought, I was having alot of trouble getting a decent cash deal, since I qualified for financing the managers didn't want to let me out the door without their commission on the financing.

[roamer65]

224. You did the best thing possible, you walked out the door.

Decent car dealers don't pull that shit. They just get down to dealing if you are interested in a particular vehicle. I got my Chevy Colorado for about 35% off under GM's red tag sale. I threatened to go test drive a Hummer and the guy knocked another $750 off the price. I had no intention of even looking at a Hummer but the ploy worked.

I love my UAW made Colorado, it is a really nice truck.

[schrodinger_I]

206. Proud Owner of 3 German Cars

I tried buying American but got tired of repairing them. I have had great luck with BMWs and Mercedes.

My American built Mercedes SUV has been wonderful!

[Lost-in-FL]

209. I will continue to buy foreign cars...

until America builds a better, reliable, more fuel efficient, lower emission car.

[Pluvious]

211. Pine Nuts !

FFS !!!

I went to Whole Foods and bought some freaking Pine Nuts.

Got home, read the label.

You get one guess where they came from...

Yup, fucking CHINA !

Ahhhhh !

PINE NUTS for fuck's sake !!!

[Joanne98]

234. My aunt has a little store and more people are asking for things made in America.

Maybe it's a trend. I hope so.

[Owl]

240. We should all buy American and local as much as possible.

Our environment, economy, jobs, and future are at stake.

[FarCenter]

243. Do UAW members send their children to public schools organized by the AFT or NEA?

Or do they send them to private/parochial schools which are not organized?

[DainBramaged]

246. That's a RNC talking point distributed during the loan hearings

YOU KNOW the answer as well as I do, our kids go to PUBLIC schools because we don't make WHITE COLLAR money. By the way, you didn't answer what you did for a living from before, is it top secret, or just you don't want to embarrass who you work for? And the beer question, cute, you knew full well all of the major brewers were bought out by Foreign entities, so you thought you'd try and bash us because we don't frequent "pubs" or fancy restaurants (or can afford) beer from micro-breweries.

Very cute.

[FarCenter]

266. There are roughly 330 parochial schools in Michigan

http://www.parochial.com/michigan/list.html

And UAW members, the "middle class" workers, don't send their kids to them? Astonishing.

I'm not employed as of last month.

[thesquanderer]

288. you mixed us up, Dain

DainBramaged, you sent me a private message taking me to task about parochial schools and then blocked me. You apparently mixed me up with someone else. I never said anything about parochial schools.

[christx33]

244. I was laid off

from a computer company (names rhymes with Hell) in November after 12 long years of working for them. Two of the reasons they gave me for the closing of our factory were foreign plants going up everywhere, and high taxes. Now I'm doing tech support for $6/hr less than what I was making at the old job. Things are rough.

[otherlander]

247. *sigh*

I'm all for buying things that are made by well-paid people, rather than made in sweatshops, but it's a shame how nationalistic this has become, when the entire point of labor/trade unionism in the first place was to transcend national boundries and build alliances based on being the working class/common people instead of the capital-controlling elite.

[depakid]

248. Not really news- Michiganders have expressed these sorts of attitudes for going on 3 decades

Meanwhile, management and the US government kept on repeating the same mistakes and absurd policies (like the SUV tax deduction) that's ended up costing them their market share.

Hopefully, this go around they've finally learned their lessons (and it doesn't hurt that John Dingell is no longer enabling their shortsightedness as Chairman of Energy and Commerce in Congress).

[SheilaT]

253. Nearly four years ago

I looked at cars because my vehicle had been in an accident and I thought it was going to be totalled, so I wanted to get a jump on finding a replacement. I test drove practically every small (because I like small cars) car with a stick shift (because I only drive a manual transmission) that I could find. I very quickly decided that a Honda Civic was by far the best of the lot. My car was fixed, so I didn't replace it. Several months later my oldest son decided he wanted to trade in his Pontiac Sunfire that had an automatic transmission for something with a manual transmission. The Sunfire, by the way, was a peach of a car, just perfect for his first car, very reliable and is still being driven by the person it was sold to. After test driving practically every small car with a manual transmission my son decided that a Honda Civic was the best choice.

I have driven plenty of small American cars when I rent one, and I am always underwhelmed by them. The very worst was a Ford Mustang which was the worst piece of shit I ever drove. While I had it, some guy admired it, and I told him that if it had not been a rental I'd have swapped for what he was driving on the spot.

It's a different world for someone who wants a van or a pickup truck or a larger car than what I prefer to drive.

[GinaMaria]

255. I know I could do a lot better buying American if I had a list

of different items I could buy that are made here.

Someone up thread mentioned a brand of shoes. I recently went shopping for sheets. My husband will not sleep on anything made in China. It took me months to find sheets that fit both his and my requirements and he wasn't even insisting that they be made here. Just not in China.

If you know of a good American product made here, I would appreciate the shopping tip.

[DainBramaged]

257. Here

http://www.unionlabel.org/

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/index.html

[GinaMaria]

260. Awesome Lists

Libbey Glass (Toledo, OH): makers of juice, water, wine and specialty glassware. A growing number of Libbey products are made outside the USA, so check origin . Available at Target.com (keyword "Libbey")

My husband and I bought a set of these glasses after we were married. They stopped making the style we have, but I would buy this brand over and over... although there's no need. These are sturdy and strong and look like Crystal. Nice weight and I've dropped a few with no cracks or breaks!

[GetTheRightVote]

265. We do need to get back to buying American only but it will be a long road back to it.

:kick:

[ecstatic]

269. I will gladly buy American when a flashy, yet fuel efficient

model is built that is affordable. Currently the only models I like are the Cadi CTS and Escalade... Too many people drive the Mustang, Charger and Chrysler 300 so I don't want those.

[Romulox]

282. LOL at your priorities. First flashy. Then efficient. And ONLY THEN American. nt

[ecstatic]

287. Sorry. Not ready to resign myself to a Buick

just yet.

[glinda]

277. Quit buying at Walmart

[Romulox]

283. Americans get this through your head: I DON'T CARE if they outsource your job if you drive a Honda.

So no. I don't even make an effort to "buy American" any more. Used to, but one-way relationships are massively unhealthy.

[LanternWaste]

289. Much like Great Britain at the eve of her long, slow march into...

Much like Great Britain at the eve of her long, slow march into mediocrity and second-rate status during the twentieth century, Americans will take great pride in something that no longer exists.

England too did her level best to induce the people of the Isles to invest heart, soul and money in the British Empire, to convince the Islanders that the sun wasn't setting, but was merely behind a few clouds ready to come out again as soon as the current negative financial cycles wanes.

In the end, the process of America as the omnipotent nation, benevolently guiding the "heathens" on the path to economic liberation and self-determination will be no more real than Britain's military hold on India and the Levant-- an illusion grasped by those who pretend not to know that their time is done, an Empire is ending and somewhere another one is beginning.

So we'll buy American because it helps up maintain that illusion for a few more years...

[Romulox]

294. LOL. The neoliberals say that any attempt to resist globalism is FUTILE.

And citing Britain as an example of the pointlessness of supporting industry is ironic, to say the least. :hi:

[LanternWaste]

296. Many people say many thing...

"The neoliberals say that any attempt to resist globalism is FUTILE."

Many people say many things which are for the most part, neither here nor there to my perspective. I'm under the impression that Stalin once said, "artillery is the god of war...". probably a very insightful comment I imagine, but as I hope to never be on either end of an artillery piece, it's not really either her or there from my my chair.

As each country has a birthing point, an apex, and a decline, I see no reason to think that America will buck the historical trend and maintain its position as the unilateral superpower forever and ever, glory hallelujah, amen.

[ProudDad]

292. How about "build American"

and build LOCAL...

Don't buy ANYTHING if you don't really need it.

Don't buy anything NEW if you can't find it used.

Don't buy anything made ELSEWHERE unless the above are both true and it isn't made locally.

Then think twice about whether you need it.

REDUCE, REUSE, recycle...

Certainly DON'T BUY ANOTHER GAS GUZZLER!!!!

[Romulox]

295. If you don't care about MY priorities, why should I care about YOURS?

You care about the environment. I care about jobs in my community. I'll make an effort to care about your concerns when you reciprocate (but not before.) :hi:

[No Elephants]

299. Why should you care about the environment? Let's see. Do you have kids....or breathe?

[Romulox]

300. Why should you care about jobs in your community? Let's see. Do you plan to retire? nt

[No Elephants]

303. Who said I don't care about jobs in my community? I am capable of caring about more than

one thing. Staying alive is a pretty high priority for all of us and our kids and grandkids.

[Romulox]

308. This is what happens when you respond to messages not originally directed toward you. nt

[No Elephants]

311. As most people do on message boards. Nothing

unusual or wrong about that. I think it's what happens when you jump to conclusions. I cannot recall anyone on this thread having posted that they are against jobs in their community.

[Romulox]

313. Nothing wrong with it except you've lost the thread of the conversation.

"I cannot recall anyone on this thread having posted that they are against jobs in their community."

My only advice to you is to read the exchange from the beginning, paying close attention to context. You don't get to wade in the middle of an exchange and demand that we return to the beginning. You're expected to follow along. :hi:

"I cannot recall anyone on this thread having posted that they are against jobs in their community."

And I cannot recall anyone having posted that they are against the environment. What a remarkable symmetry!

[ProudDad]

305. Define "Job"!

If your definition is useful, productive work designed to promote the health and sustenance of your local human community and by extension the Earth and its Creatures...I too care about "jobs" in my community.

If you mean wage slavery meant to maintain the current unsustainable pro-growth "economy" where the least productive "jobs" garner the highest wages, where continued "growth" will render the Earth uninhabitable for large air-breathing mammals...then NO. I don't care to promote that kind of "job".

My priority is the promotion of Earth Stewardship as the goal of human endeavor and the destruction of the current pro-growth, pro-death, "profit" based obscenity laughingly called an "economy". :hi:

[Romulox]

309. Er, no! How about you define "environment", if we're distracting each other with inanities. nt

[ProudDad]

306. Why Work?

Another take on the current obsession with "wage slavery" in a sick economy...

"If you start asking yourself "why work?" you may see a connection between wage slavery, misunderstandings of leisure, lifestyles based on consumption, corporate welfare, education that often amounts to little more than conditioning, and the global social, environmental, and economic crises we are now facing. We hope that the materials we feature here will encourage critical thinking about such things."

http://www.whywork.org/index.php

[Romulox]

310. LOL. At least you've outted yourself as a loon. nt

[ProudDad]

293. "American" cars aren't American either

assembled in Canada or Mexico from parts made in 50 different foreign countries...

Get Real...

There are more "USAmerican" parts in a U.S. made Toyota then in many "American" cars...

[Unvanguard]

297. Narrow economic nationalism is stupid and immoral.

Buy especially from businesses that treat their workers decently? Fine.

But buy especially from businesses that happen to be located in the US? No, thanks.

Workers in other countries need jobs, too. (Probably more, actually, at least in the developing world, because they have fewer alternatives.)

[ProudDad]

307. Hell, all "Nationalism" is stupid and immoral

Piss on ALL Flags!

[Romulox]

317. Why stop at "economic nationalism". Isn't ALL nationalism stupid?

Why pay taxes? To support your own country? Stupid. :hi:

[tammywammy]

301. I would have considered buying American when I purchased my vehicle in 2005

But there wasn't anything comparable to my 2006 VW Beetle TDI.

And since I work for a VW dealership, my purchase did support my workplace.

[Northwind]

314. Now now...

You know very well that diatribes against buying foreign cars NEVER extends to those made in Europe. Funny, isn't it? Somehow, European made cars are perfectly acceptable, but if that car gets made by a company based where some yellow people live, you better watch out!

The "Buy American" BS has always been more about racism/culturalism than it has been about economics. Then Yerpeens is good honest white folk, but you cain't trust them yeller boys...

[Romulox]

318. LOL. The VW Beetle (made in Mexico) has been plagued with quality problems since its inception.

Lemme guess: your Consumer Reports subscription has lapsed.

[sarcasmo]

312. Kick, my car is built in Lansing, Michigan and top notch quality.

Saturn Outlook.

[tom_paine]

315. When I bought my last car, I gave American automakers first crack at me.

I test drove them first, and wanted to buy American for just that reason.

At the time, the American cars I test drove did not impress me, to say the least. One of them steered like a tank considering it was a small car.

Only after I test-drove at two or three American dealerships, did I try a foreign dealership.

I test drive the car and it whupped the American cars asses, I am sorry to say. And though I wanted to buy American, in the free marketplace and my own sensibilities of not wishing to be unhappy with a purchase of that magnitude, I bought a foreign car.

Sadly, too, for American manufacturers, I have never regretted my decision once.

When I buy my next car, I'll do the same and try to give American Auto manufacturers the first crack at me and my business.

But if they lose the test-drive/quality battle in the free marketplace, then I am going to spend my money on the car I believe to be the most quality.

[Romulox]

316. That's the same reason I support expanding H1b: American workers just don't impress me.

[tom_paine]

320. Well, what I said was a far cry from saying THAT. Plus, your comment is opposite

of the sentiment in your sigline.

What gives with that?

[Romulox]

321. I was being facetious. At any rate, the sentiment I expressed is 100% in line with my sig line.

It was also 100% in line with your post. If you can shop around the world for manufactured goods, why shouldn't I get to shop around the world for services? :shrug:

[tom_paine]

324. Understood. The "sarcasm" smiley is useful for the occasionally humor-impaired, like me.

n/t

[Imagevision]

328. Watch out for the repoman guys, they got my next door neighbor last night...

[MrSlayer]

331. Oh, NOW they get it.

When it's already too late. Fools.