Rangel To Reintroduce Military Draft Measure

[Purveyor]

Source: THE HILL

Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.) likely will introduce his controversial legislation to reinstate the draft again this year, but he will wait until after the economic stimulus package is passed.

Asked if he plans to introduce the legislation again in 2009, Rangel last week said, “Probably … yes. I don’t want to do anything this early to distract from the issue of the economic stimulus.”

Rangel’s military draft bill did create a distraction for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) soon after Democrats won control of Congress after the 2006 election.

In the wake of that historic victory, Pelosi said publicly that she did not support the draft and that the Democratic leadership would not back Rangel’s legislation. She also said Rangel’s legislation was not about reinstating the draft but was instead “a way to make a point” about social inequality.

Reintroducing the military draft bill, which would attract media attention, will be trickier for Rangel in 2009 than it was a couple years ago because the Ways and Means Committee chairman is now under investigation by the House ethics committee.

Read more: http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/rangel-to-reintroduce-military-draft-measure-2009-01-14.html

[FLAprogressive]

1. Rangel needs to retire -- if he doesn't , he needs a strong primary challenge

[rangersmith82]

149. Its a good idea...

Its time for people to serve.

Maybe after some deployments people will appreciate the things we have here in the USA.

[shintao]

151. I also think it is a great idea.

The draft should include all politicians children as well, no deferments even for the disabled who can play roles in service to America. We won't have wars if politician children have their arse on the line.

Besides Rangles draft, is Obamas idea to make all citizens serve - ALL OF THEM! And I like that idea as well. As soon as kids graduate high school they should do a two year mandetory service in their own neighborhoods, to learn morals & ethics & pride in their country. They should sweep the streets, clean sidewalks, paint buildings, help the elderly folks and serve where ever they are needed.

After two years they can have voluntary military service, or two years of college or other job training.

[cliffordu]

2. I think there should be a draft.

Everybody pulls their weight.

Civil service or military, your choice,

but everyone serves.


*****


And then we can all be wholesome and sane as I am.

[Purveyor]

4. I can promise you that moms and dads across the country would extract their heads from their asses

and start paying more attention to our military exploits if there was.

I'm tending to lean in the direction of supporting a draft myself. Not quite there yet but pondering the thought.

[cliffordu]

6. Beneath my cynical post on this there is that as a motive:

Start drafting white kids from the suburbs and the wars end YESTERDAY.

Huge anti-war rallies....

[Bette Noir]

25. Yes.

End the wars NOW.

[MellowDem]

82. I'm pretty sure that minorities would have a say as well...

Actually, white kids from the suburbs would have the most tools to avoid the draft longer (college education, connections). In reality, the minorities would be effected the most, and I'm sure minority parents would shit just as big a brick as whites.

[BrklynLiberal]

86. I agree with you 100%, and I am sure that is what Rangel has in mind as well.

[Better Believe It]

106. More Nonsense! A Draft Can Only Help The Warmakers

"Start drafting white kids from the suburbs and the wars end YESTERDAY"

Really? Perhaps you can explain why it took over a decade to end the Vietnam war when we had the draft.

A draft will give those who have imperial ambitions and much bigger military force to implement their war agenda.

Be careful what you wish for!

[cliffordu]

108. The riots against the war picked up as the draft reached further into the middle

classes, as college deferments got harder to obtain.

[diamidue]

132. True.

I don't understand how people can still believe that our Military and our Government would do anything that favors working class Americans. I don't understand how they believe that their Government listens to them. Haven't they been paying attention these past few years? Don't give these guys any more power than you have to. It will come back to bite you.

[12string]

11. The Draft

I have three sons ages 23,24,&25.They are all nice,intelligent,caring individuals.They all went to college on academic scholarships.We didn't raise them to become cannon fodder for this government's illegal,
unjustified wars.
You people that think we should have a draft can GO FUCK YOURSELVES.

[cliffordu]

14. Thanks for that. This country is, after all,

all about you.

Maybe you'd have worked harder to prevent these wars if Juniors ass was on the line.

Most of the dying over there has been done by kids who had noplace better to go than the military, and I'll bet they are pretty much invisible to you.

Cannon fodder for sure.

The draft DEMANDS the populace be engaged with the process of going to war.

The draft led to the massive protests that ended the Vietnam conflict.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mamameow]

39. right on!

and no deferments allowed, not for college, not for anything except disability. those disability cannot be any less than the disabilities suffered by our troops in iraq who were sent back into battle disabled.

[JohnyCanuck]

61. And a boil on the ass does not qualify as a disablilty. n/t

[MellowDem]

83. Are most of the kids in the military...

there because they had no other place to go? Seriously, I don't know, but that is still quite an assumption.

The draft was used in Vietnam because it was needed. Now, the military would hate having a draft. The army has changed exponentially since Vietnam, and drafted kids don't fit into their current system.

Hell, weapons technology has advanced so far that the military has ensured it will never need the draft. Probably was intentional as well. The draft means the citizens have more say over what wars we fight and how. The US military wants full control, and it now has that with the military-industrial product.

The real solution is cutting the military and slashing its funding. Then any actions it wishes to take like invasion of another country will take a draft. Honestly, we don't need such a bloated military anyways. It has to be the biggest waste of resources in humankind.

[Obamanaut]

146. Active duty end strength has been in the area of 2 million for a long time

(+/- a few thousand) with a lot of the money in the budget being spent on sign-up bonus bucks and recruiting expense. A draft could reduce that.

I joined four days after high school graduation because I had never thought college was in my future. I had the HS grades, but lacked the funds. I stayed for 28 years, did get the college after all, a wife, and two daughters.

[Bette Noir]

26. So all wars should be fought by other people's kids only?

[12string]

31. Other people's kids

No,Bette,I just don't happen to think war is the answer.I don't want anybody's kids going to war.

[mamameow]

42. war

vietnam occurred and continued, even though we had the draft. however it was other people's kids who went. those who did not go were the perpetrators of the war. like bush, cheney, rush and so many other war mongers. if everyone had skin in the game, war will not happen in this country. look at the draft as war insurance!!!

[12string]

47. War Insurance

More like guaranteed escalation.Apparently you don't remember who got deferments.Giving the government an endless supply of bodies would only result in an escalation of hostilities.The answer is no more war,not more people available for it.

[krabigirl]

60. No. We shouldn't be fighting any wars, period.

[mamameow]

36. wrong!!!

i have 2 sons a little older but still draft age. i want the draft. no more wars will happen if everyones sons and daughters are eligible to "fight"!!!!!

[AlbertCat]

52. No more wars!

Grow up! There will always be a "war" somewhere. And a no deferments draft that includes services other than military....because everyone is not right for the military....is not such a bad idea. A year or two when you're young and healthy of some kind of community service is a great idea and probably good for you. And if the USA is ever on the defensive in a REAL, declared war that puts us in peril, then everyone in the system can be assigned to a defensive role.

A "draft" need not be just a gather 'em up and put 'em in fatigues affair, y'know.

[cliffordu]

53. Yep.

[Ms. Toad]

143. I don't object - as long as military basic training

is not part of the mandatory package for everyone. Every time Rangel has introduced the bill, basic training has been mandatory - those with conscientious objection to war had to learn to kill first - before being allowed to opt into service that did not violate their beliefs - and as long as non-military service is treated the same way as military service with respect to pay and benefits.

Then I think we'd see a real change in the tendency to war. If non-military service is valued equally to military service so there was no particular financial motive to join the military, our military might dwindle and be replaced by service in elimination of poverty, building of infrastructures, providing health care, or diplomacy.

[Ms. Toad]

144. I would not object as long as military basic training

is not part of the mandatory package for everyone. Every time Rangel has introduced the bill, basic training has been mandatory - those with conscientious objection to war had to learn to kill first - before being allowed to opt into service that did not violate their beliefs - and as long as non-military service is treated the same way as military service with respect to pay and benefits.

Then I think we'd see a real change in the tendency to war. If non-military service is valued equally to military service so there was no particular financial motive to join the military, our military might dwindle and be replaced by service in elimination of poverty, building of infrastructures, providing health care, or diplomacy.

To paraphrase, peace will never come about because parents are afraid their children will be killed - it will only come about when our children embrace serving the cause of peace. A big piece of getting there is to remove the economic incentive to embrace the machinery of war.

[naaman fletcher]

134. that's just silly...

WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam were fought without a draft. What makes you think draft would make wars less likely? In fact, the number of American soliders killed in war has plummeted since the draft ended.

[Critters2]

80. And THAT is the attitude that will keep us out of unnecessary wars.

Your kids weren't raised to be cannon fodder, but the kids of rural communities and urban neighborhoods were. Is that it? Seems to be.

When the nice, intelligent, caring, WHITE, MIDDLE CLASS individuals from the 'burbs are threatened with real national service, the unjustified wars will end.

[tomg]

119. I have four sons, although

that they are male is and should be irrelevant concerning a draft. The youngest is about to be sixteen. Mine, too, are intelligent,nice,caring. I didn't raise them to be cannon fodder either for any war. I hope we raised them to be committed concerned citizens. I completely support a draft. Incidentally, I was a resister and a CO (a military court case where I won). There can't be deferments save for disability: not for college, not for connections, not, as someone put it, for boils on one's ass.

I understand your concern and reasons, but if you didn't raise them to be cannon fodder, maybe you raised them to be resisters and Co's. There are a lot of ways to work to protect the community.

[Obamanaut]

147. I retired after 28 years in the Navy. If resisting to keep your sons

from becoming cannon fodder is necessary, I can be in the line with you. I have grandsons in the general age group as your sons, and I certainly do not want them wasted as so many have been wasted these last few years.

[diamidue]

131. Absolutely right!

I have come to the conclusion that our Representatives could care less about us. A draft has nothing to do with "serving your country" anymore, but a lot to do with "serving your corporate/Wall Street masters. No way will I turn my two draft-age children over to these people. I don't trust them at all - from either party.

[mamameow]

32. you betcha!!!

put the draft in place and we will have less wet-dreams of war by right wingers!!!!!!!!

[Shiver]

9. I've long thought

that there should be a mandatory period of service upon urning 18. Not necessarily in the military - one could choose the armed forces, the peace corps, or any number of options that fit them best. It'd provide training for a career, and if they decide they like it, they could continue on with it. If not, half of their college tuition would be paid for.

Not the same as a draft, and many kinks to work out, but I honestly think it would do a lot of people a lot of good. Honest service to their country, as well as instilling in them a sense of duty to their fellow people.

Or something like that.

[cliffordu]

15. Exactly. Service to country, either civil service or Military would be the best thing

for 18-20 year olds.

might show them there is more to life than consuming....

Maybe.


And we need a bunch of people to help build the nationwide bicycle route network I want put into place immediately....

[Shiver]

21. I am so behind you on that

Interstate cycling trail network... :loveya:

[mamameow]

44. no to civil service.

if we had civil or military, you know who would go to civil service, those who would have gotten deferments. other kids would face the "enemy".

[AnneD]

66. Exactly.....

Two years service to your country PERIOD NO EXCEPTIONS. Military need not be the first and only choice.

I volunteered and served 10 years in the ARMY Reserve and the IR. This was just after VN. Why did I do this- there wasn't a draft and I was a woman (23yo) anyway? Purely patriotic-I believe that the DOI,Bill of Rights,and the Constitution is are worth fighting for. If we are ever invaded-I know my way around weapons and increase my chances of survival. I wanted to stand on my own 2 feet.

I had a good experience and it made me a better person. I learned responsibility, leadership, critical thinking, work ethic, survival skills, and dealing with folks really different than myself-more than any experience I had-even college. I even learned to sleep standing up (board meetings are a snap), and can wake from a dead sleep and be dressed and out the door in less than 8 minutes (this includes hair and teeth). Except for the eating and dressing part-our children are protected and pampered.

I have worked in a school for 15 years and I see this way to much and it gets worse every year. I known it has been a particularly rough week for me but I have had my ass chewed out all week from parents that are pissed that I dared send precious home because he had head lice and what am I doing to prevent this:eyes:They often throw their weight around but they won't pay the right kind of attention to their kid. These helicopter parents swarm all over their kids and pull them out of the situations that they need to learn from. They are preventing these kids from growing up and taking responsibility for themselves.The kids have no sense of direction. Who needs perpetual childhood.

Today most Americans are not invested in the war. That is why it is dragging out. If they had kids involved this would not only have been over-it may never have started. I always see plenty of Vets and older folks that were drafted on the protest lines with me-but not so many kids (unless I bring my daughter). A draft may not prevent war but it might slow it down and selfless service of any kind would benefit our society and our citizen.

Of course I am prepared to be flame but you know what, once you have run up the live fire range with a mean ass ed drill sargent screaming behind you.....not much intimidates you-even in a protest line. Most folks in this country have lost their spine and intestinal fortitude.

[Book Lover]

76. Please see my post #23

No exceptions? At all? What do you suggest my child do for her service?

[AnneD]

120. Military or Volunteer Service....

like Teach for America, the Peace Corp, state facilities for the mentally disabled, state parks and recreation facilities. The list is endless and the need is great.

And I work with the mentally ill and Autistic children. Some autistic kids are high functioning and can do many things (Asberger..sp). It depends on their level of functioning.

It was called the universal draft but there were some exclusions and if the mental illness was too profound they can be excluded. However, I do believe in including the MI's into some service if nothing but for their own esteem-to feel like every one else. It may take extra work on our part to help them 'do their duty' but there is plenty that can be done. Everyone needs a job to do.

[cliffordu]

98. Well....

"Of course I am prepared to be flame but you know what, once you have run up the live fire range with a mean ass ed drill sargent screaming behind you.....not much intimidates you-even in a protest line. Most folks in this country have lost their spine and intestinal fortitude."


I won't flame you, I might even love ya just a little......

:patriot:

[AnneD]

121. Thanks....

Sorry you have been getting flamed. I reached the same conclusions as you had. Once you are an active participant-you don't take your rights for granted or the sacrifice of others. Things like protecting VA benefits (esp women soldiers), and having the best equipment for the soldiers in the field is a priority.

My best buds on the protest lines are ex military. I don't see many Korean Vet, but I see many Nam Vets and Iraq War Vets. When RW folks start shouting (esp the young ones) we whip out or medals along with enlistment paper work and encourage them to REALLY support their country. It always floors them-esp when I and the other ladies do it.:spray: They just can't wrap their mind around it.

Bush et al have managed to gut our military in a dangerous way. They broke a sacred trust and it will be a while before that trust is restored if ever.

[cliffordu]

127. The vets coming home for good as this debacle winds down

are going to need each and every one of us to listen as they bear witness....

There are a lot of broken hearts coming back.

The Veteran's Administration better tighten up and get this right pretty soon, and Congress better get their minds right, too......

If they don't, I get the feeling that there will be hell to pay....

[Obamanaut]

150. That was a post worth reading. Thank you for it. nt

[Bonescrat]

109. I'd support it with the following stipulation...

That no one shall ever be subject to forced conscription to combat service.

Combat Service = Volunteer Only

[cliffordu]

112. There you go. I'm just saying that everyone serves the country, the people.

If we all pay in with our time, either in the military or civilian service, everybody wins.

[Shiver]

117. Definitely

All service would be voluntary. The only requirement is that one must choose something.

One of the main problems that would need to be worked out, I think, is keeping rich kids from buying the "cushy" options...

[naaman fletcher]

135. you are right..

it probably would be a good idea for kids to do that, but to force them is slavery.

[notadmblnd]

13. If there is a draft, everyone will serve

Both male and female. Those with chronic illnesses too. There will be very little room to get out of it. Those with diseases like diabetes, asthma etc will have support assignments or some other alternative service..

[Book Lover]

23. So what does my autistic kid do for her service?

Please, this is a stupid idea - there can never be universal forced volunteerism. What if two 18 year olds marry and have a kid immediately - do they both get drafted at same time? What about the 19 year old whose father dies suddenly and is needed to take over the family business - do we extract him from his business and set him digging ditches or whatever for two years?

What is the purpose of this forced volunteerism? What is served? Who benefits?

[cliffordu]

24. Switzerland, for one. They do universal service. They have a nice country.

[Book Lover]

27. I'm sorry - how does that answer a single one of my questions?

Do I need to point out that Switzerland is a neutral nation of a mere 7.6 million people? Talk about your apples and oranges.

A draft will only feed more bodies into the war machine. Congress will do nothing to stop it - unless you think street protests are effective? Come the fuck on and wake up.

And what do you propose my child do for her national service?

[cliffordu]

34. I said civil service or the military.

Civil service could be building skateboard parks.

Maybe we could be more like Switzerland. We could strive for it, anyway.

The able bodied would be serve. Your kid would probably be exempt.

I think you are a little overboard with this absolutism you think I'm pushing here.


Maybe on purpose, who's to say?

[jus_the_facts]

45. Yeah and Bush went into the Air Nat. Guard...there's THE perfect example of how it will NEVER work..

....just because they're drafted doesn't mean there wouldn't STILL be preferential treatment of some OVER others. :eyes:

[mamameow]

49. bush draft?

bush enlisted, not drafted. do you remember him saying how he just happened to go by the guard recruiting office and asked if they had any openings. they had just one spot for him, flying an obsolete plane that would never be used again in vietnam. bring on the draft and stop the wars.

[jus_the_facts]

51. Where did I say he was drafted? I didn't....I said there'd be preferential treatment.....

...of some people over others....as was done in his case...regardless if there's a draft or not.

[AlbertCat]

55. I said there'd be preferential treatment.....

Hey...some people abuse the food stamp program...so let's just get rid of the whole thing!

That museum put up a nasty show of dirty photographs and the NEA paid for .01% of the installation cost.... so let's get rid of the NEA!

Some football players have taken steroids....that's cheating....let's get rid of all football!

There will always be a minority of jerks who abuse and use perfectly good systems and ideas. But that is no reason to abandon an idea.

[Book Lover]

78. If you are not pushing absolute 100% forced service, then I misread you n/t

[customerserviceguy]

73. The Swiss also have mandatory gun ownership

because when you get out of active duty, you are part of the reserves, or militia, or whatever.

Care to adopt that part of it, too?

[cliffordu]

99. Yep.

Everyone I know who was trained in weapons in the military respects and understands how dangerous they are.

There are already about oh, I dunno, 2 guns per adult in this country, anyhow...Too bad many are owned by idiots and the untrained....

I'd just as soon have them fully trained.

******


At least then if there are shootings the risk of collateral damage is reduced.

:sarcasm:

[mopinko]

115. i say- the world would be a different place if every woman knew how to

shoot an m-16.
if you have to volunteer for combat, and there are options besides military, i can't really argue.

[AnneD]

138. Once a woman ever learned how to deal......

with a mean 6ft 5in drill sargent screaming at her to get her ass up that live fire range (fyi they shoot real bullets at you)-you don't scare easily. I had an abusive boy friend that was shocked when I fought back the first time he tried to pull shit on me. I told him never again. He started on me while I was asleep the second time. I had his ass thrown in jail and went out and got me a gun. Yes, the world would be a different place.

PS, the drill sargent said women were better shots and learned quicker because they listened and followed directions better. A higher % classed as sharpshooters.

[notadmblnd]

28. I did say there, would be very little that would get one out of it.

I would think your autistic child would fall under that.

[Book Lover]

29. So then my kid doesn't do "her part" and is therefore not part of the social contract?

I mean, what penalties are there for not serving when called? And what about my other examples, when people are needed in their own lives?

[notadmblnd]

35. if she is called up, I would think you can discuss it with the military then.

I would think that if the military thinks that your child is functional enough to serve, she'll/he'll serve.

I guess I should have articulated better. Religious objections will not get one out of service. College will not get one out of service. Contentious objectors will not be let out of service. Nor will people with anal cysts or other chronic illness such as diabetes, crons disease, or asthma will also not be let out of service.

[Book Lover]

77. How about being a single parent?

By the way, what do you do for your volunteerism? You're so hot on this idea: I assume you are already part of your community. Me, I work with my child's class in the public school system, and I serve on an arts board.

And just how do you propose we pay for all these people working unwillingly for the government?

[notadmblnd]

96. I,m a member of the local draft board, I volunteer for a local politician, I work the polls on

election day, I prepare taxes for people who can't afford to pay to have them done, and I hand out coffee and change to beggars on the street when I have extra. And no, I'm not gung hoe about a draft. I have a 16 yr old son, he's my only child and it would kill me to lose him. However, I am going to help make sure that if my son has to serve, that those who would attempt to avoid it by dishonest means, serve also.

[Book Lover]

97. OK, now that we've both established our bona fides...

How do you propose we address the hypothetical situations I described? One instance: What happens to the child of the single parent who turns 18 when her appointed time of servitude arrives?

[cliffordu]

100. She serves in a day care for working mothers, keeping her child with her.

not everyone has to parachute into Tuzla.

:eyes:

[notadmblnd]

116. If there's a draft, it will be 20 yr olds first

those in college will be allowed to finish the semester. If a person is unable to serve they will go in front of the draft board, state their case and a decision will be made. There's different degrees of autism, so I think if the child is highly functional, there could be a possibility of them serving. However, if the child is considered disabled (receiving SS), then she wouldn't be called up to serve.

On edit. My son's best friends brother is autistic.At age 20, he functions at the level of a 3 yr old. I don't expect that the military would think him capable of serving. Nor would he be capable of performing alternative service.

[bowens43]

65. what fucking nonsense.

this is supposed to be a FREE country. Have you always hated freedom?

[cliffordu]

101. ROFLMAO

You own what you earn.


I'm sorry you don't get the point. I am happy, however, that you aren't going to be inconvenienced in your freedom to serve the country you so blithely enjoy.

[Zorra]

88. No, only poor kids will be drafted. The wealthy will never let their

children be used as cannon fodder.

Just like Vietnam.

[cliffordu]

102. Nope. Doesn't have to happen that way.

Doesn't have to be military service either.

[toopers]

124. I guess that is your version of freedom of choice!

eom

[cliffordu]

128. Nice.

Why not read all the posts before jumping all up in my grill, Pilgrim??


On the other hand, we wouldn't want to impugn your ability to make more money, now would we??

[marshall]

125. They'll need to stop excluding women from the draft

That worked back in the day, but in 2009 we expect more equality from our government.

[naaman fletcher]

133. Bullshit..

the military draft is wrong, and so is a civil service draft. Both are slavery.

[cliffordu]

136. LOL You're right. I forgot that part.

Too much to ask that people take enough pride in their country to invest themselves for a year or two.

I also understand why the laziest of our citizens might take umbrage at service to others of any stripe.

Such is life.

[naaman fletcher]

139. asking is fine...

forcing is something altogether different.

[GodlessBiker]

3. He's a tax and rent control cheat. He should retire. But his argument on this should be heard.

[HeraldSquare212]

70. All of that came out after he asked Hillary when she was going to quit, forcing her to do so.

I'm suspicious.

[HeraldSquare212]

72. And I should say, he's my Congressman and I love him.

[AZ Criminal JD]

5. The party that puts in the draft will be out of power for a generation.

And deservedly so.

[Akoto]

7. Thanks for once again using my generation as a bargaining chip, Rangel. n/t

[bluestateguy]

8. What an asshole

A cheap ass political stunt from a congressman who has been in Washington too long and has ethical problems.

[Bette Noir]

30. His point is that rich white men are too casual

about wasting the lives of poor brown kids.

[BrklynLiberal]

89. and that's the truth..

[cliffordu]

103. Yep, and us 'working class' honkeys....

[hardtravelin]

110. Not true, really.

Race is pretty much proportionally represented in the military vs. the civilian population. The highest percentage being around $40,000 to $50,000 a year.

In infantry outfits, the numbers skew heavily towards Hispanics and whites. In combat deaths, whites are over-represented.

http://www.kineticdebris.com/index.php/iraq-war-casualties-analysis-state-and-demography/

[tekisui]

10. If we had the draft, we wouldn't still be in Iraq or Afghanistan.

[cliffordu]

16. That's right.

There would have been million-people riots on the mall in DC every weekend for the last couple years....

[Mari333]

81. amen!!!!!!!!!!!

[gblady]

17. why...

do you say that?

[tekisui]

20. Youths and parents would be in the streets.

When people are forced to die for a cause they don't believe in, they would be serious and active about it.

[musette_sf]

41. you are correct

a volunteer army causes general public apathy on taking personal action against wars. "hey, not my problem"!

a volunteer army also gets a steady decrease in the quality of our soldiers. now we're taking felons. boy, will it be a mess when these kids, messed up to begin with, get back from the ME.

i am anti-war, i was around for Viet Nam, and i hated that the boys were getting drafted.

but it also got asses out into the streets in protest.

i think both men and women should have skin in the game, instead of only men having to sign up for selective service. war is wrong, and see what this all-volunteer military hath wrought: unending war for corporate gain, and no accountablity from the gov't or from the corporations.

i wish there were a better way to get people involved in being anti-war activists, than to reinstate a draft. it seems like the poison pill that no one wants, but could cure citizens of their war apathy.

maybe the openness of the Obama administration, in listening to the concerns of ordinary citizens, can help bring about an end to illegal wars for profit and empire, without having to reinstate the draft. that would be my highest hope.

but if we continue to have illegal wars for profit and empire, then i see a draft as the quickest way to amass huge public outcry.

i'm not FOR a draft because i want kids to fight, as much as any sane person is not FOR war because they want kids to fight, mind you, but i fear that human nature is such that people will not become active against war unless they have a personal interest in ending war.

[AlbertCat]

63. Don't forget the TV

Remember Vietnam was on TV every night. You saw wounded soldiers and even dead Vietcong.

I remember watching soldiers in the jungle doing real shotguns....that is, smoking pot in a shotgun (The spliff went in the loading end of the barrel, and the handsome young soldier blew hard into it and a thick stream of smoke came out the end of the barrel where the other handsome young soldier sucked it in deep...ahhhhh)

These days we get Joe the Plumber reporting opinions and no coverage of the dead coming home in coffins.

We also get some excellent reporting, usually from foreign coresponents...so I don't mean to condemn all reporters and their work, but it ain't like it used to be.

More visibility on the boob tube to the horrors our troops face would go a long way too. (It has, recently...also with the Israel/Gaza crapola)

[HeraldSquare212]

71. Yup, if everyone's affected, then everyone gives a shit.

Lefties in other countries used to insist on the draft for that reason.

[nc4bo]

12. So much for the National Guard's new Hooah! magazine...

Honey isn't working so good, time to lay out the vinegar, I guess.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/616213/us_army_national_guard_launches_free.html?page=1&cat=2

When we went to pay DS's tuition, all the military pamphlets were nearly gone and my son's C.C. Brown covered copy of Hooah! arrived in yesterday's mail (it's a real nice magazine, btw):

http://www.1800goguard.com/hooah/index.php

Not to worry Mr. Rengel and all you neocons, the economy's in the toilet, many families have no money and no job which means no money for college so enlistments should rise accordingly.

[MrsBrady]

18. no n/t

[OhioChick]

22. Fuck that.

The party that would support a Draft would be political suicide.

[lanlady]

33. doesn't he have better things to do?

We get the point, Charlie, now move on.

[tnlefty]

37. How about a special skills draft for all of the politicins who voted

for the IWR first? The politicians who ignored all of the phone calls begging them to vote no, and the letters and the e-mails who brought about the wars in the first place.

[rollin74]

38. dumb idea

the military doesn't want the draft reinstated.

The quality of soldiers you get from a draft tends to be pretty lousy. From a military standpoint, it's far better to fight with fewer troops who are volunteers and largely motivated than with twice as many conscripts who were forced to be there. Especially in modern warfare where sheer numbers aren't as important.

It doesn't matter because Rangel's bill has no chance in hell of passing. He's wasting his time.

[AlbertCat]

56. Especially in modern warfare where sheer numbers aren't as important.

Rummy? Is that you?

Numbers, sheer or not, were sure important in (the failures of) Iraq and Afghanistan.

[cliffordu]

57. I think that just might BE rummy.....

:rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

68. That is misinformation.

The civil war, WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam were ALL fought with draftees, and there was virtually no difference in quality between the volunteer and the draftee.

Those who say otherwise are American imperialists who know that draftees will not fight to expand the American empire. They will fight to defend America, but not to improve corporate profits.

Vietnam is a prime example. Great numbers of the first troops there were draftees. They did just fine. Only in the last years of the war did you see a significant difference - as the draftees came to understand that we were not fighting in self defense, or for democracy, but fighting instead to prop up dictators just as brutal as those we were fighting against. At THAT, they quit.

Draftees make great soldiers. They make lousy mercenaries.

[AZ Criminal JD]

87. You are making up history

Volunteers were far superior to draftees in Vietnam. That's why the military pushed for a volunteer army.

[RaleighNCDUer]

93. And you didn't read what I wrote, or you are making up your own history.

The draftees of 65 and 66 were hardly any different from the volunteers. It was later in the war, 69 70, that the draftees showed significant differences because by that time they knew what the war was really about, there were fewer and fewer volunteers coming in which put a heavier burden on the draftees, and many student deferments were no longer valid - because of the lack of volunteers and the subsequent need for manpower.

As I said, draftees make great soldiers but lousy mercenaries. They have to BELIEVE in what they are fighting for, not just getting paid for it.

[cliffordu]

105. You are so full of shit I'll bet your eyes are brown.

Nice try though.

[cliffordu]

104. Excellent post, capturing the essence of this entire argument.

Thanks!!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

40. Of all the things Rangel concentrates on - the draft!

what about needy children, healthcare, education?

All troops home unless really needed. I mean really needed not because of some poiticians' whim.

[Lilith Velkor]

118. He pulls this shit every two years

He's definitely a hefty bag o' douche.

And every two years, you'll see some nimrod on here saying, "You can't be anti-war unless you are pro-draft!!1!" :rofl:

[Jefferson23]

43. I am not in favor of this at all.

[Runcible Spoon]

46. I'm surprised this is going over so many peoples' heads

to those of you who scream "NOT MY GODDAMN KID" well that's exactly the response Rangel is trying to prompt. For those of you screaming "NO MORE WARS! DRAFTS ARE IMMORAL!" Well that's ALSO exactly the response Rangel is trying to prompt. I think it's an eloquent and effective way to draw attention to the wars and to drum up anti-war sentiment among those who just go along in their lives without thinking about how war affects us all. And for those of you saying that we need to focus on the economy, well, if we gutted military spending, there would be plenty more money for infrastructure and job building programs and plenty left over to assign all military personnel to domestic peacetime positions.

[cliffordu]

48. Yep.

[customerserviceguy]

75. I thought the point was just to embarass the Repukes

who are always beating the drums about "supporting the military".

Charlie always knew that they'd NEVER vote for a draft, because their little debutante daughters would have to serve. If they tried to pass a draft that was male-only, who knows what the Supreme Court would do with that?

It was a gimmick whose time has come and passed. Move on, Charlie.

[BrklynLiberal]

90. Bingo!!!

[Evergreen Emerald]

148. No. It does not work. Do you think a draft would have stopped Bush?

He did not care that a hundred thousand marched on Washington to protest the war. He did not respect the deal he made with those in service: they would be willing to risk their lives if he only used their lives in times of great need. He lied and used their lives to promote is ideologue agenda.

Rangel cannot use my child as a bargaining tool.
Obama cannot use my child for his agenda.

[robcon]

50. Rangel voted against the draft measure that he had created last time.

He's a fraud, and not just with regard to taxes and rent-controlled apartments.

We need someone else at Ways and Means.

[messiah]

54. Hahaha

If Democrats were actually anti-war and there was a great peace on earth then I would support a draft for peace keeping services.

Trying to force awareness upon people by endangering their lives is kinda childish and quite foolish/insane because it could backfire.

If you support a draft by forcing peace by threatening violence you should look in the mirror into your eyes and tell yourself "I would risk sending people to die for peace, I'm no different than Bush".
:rofl:

[AlbertCat]

58. "I would risk sending people to die for peace, I'm no different than Bush".

Wrong!

To sent people to die for OIL and BIG BUSINESS would make you no different than Bush.

Sending people to die for peace makes you no different than Abe Lincoln or F. D. Roosevelt.

Go ahead...laugh....

[cliffordu]

59. Yep. big difference.

[Guaranteed]

129. Well said. nt

[classysassy]

62. Social inequality

and economic injustice are the things that Mr Rangel is preposing,a draft will resolve that problem.

[bowens43]

64. rangel is an embarassment as well as a raving lunatic.

Hey chuck, sit down and STFU.

[Chicago1]

67. TRY STARTING A DRAFT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS

Don't worry, Obama will be on the phone time in no time flat yelling at Rangel. He's so dumb.





THE ADULTS ARE BACK IN CHARGE
IMPEACH GEORGE AND DICK!!!!!

[SAXMAR]

69. Voting Only for those who serve!

Got your attention didn't I.

In the book and movie Star ship Troopers only those who served in the military could become citizens and vote. I don't think that is right but it is an interesting concept.

My draft number was 4. If they hadn't stopped the draft when they did I would have been drafted. The Viet Nam war was still being fought.

I did work as a social worker for an organization the draft avoiders could volunteer at and earn amnesty. The amnesty benefit came about 6 months after I started working there. I was a paid employee.

I have a 19 year old son. I would not want him to be drafted. Right now he is on the verge of a very successful acting career. He has a nice part in a film by an Academy Award winning director that will be released in the fall. I wouldn't want that to be interrupted by mandatory service.

My son is registered with the selective service. All 18 year old males in the US must register. You cannot get a passport or federal aid for college unless you are registered.

Just some info, ideas etc. to throw out there.

saxmar

[dixiegrrrrl]

74. Draft Joe the Plumber....

You don't see that loud mouthed brainless twit running to enlist, do ya?

[Mari333]

79. good. maybe people will think twice about being keyboard armchair warriors. nt

[Telly Savalas]

84. Are you planning on signing up?

If you support forcibly sending other people into combat while refraining from volunteering to do it yourself, doesn't that make you a "keyboard armchair warrior"?

[Mari333]

85. already watched my kids go to Iraq.

and before more troops are hauled off to afghanistan by obama, maybe the threat of a draft will wake some people up to what its like when one of your kids is hauled off to a bullshit war. no parent should go thru what we went thru. it literally killed my husband when our son went to abu ghraib for a yr.

[BrklynLiberal]

91. OMIGOD. that must have been terrible for all of you.

[RCinBrooklyn]

92. I'm all for it. Send some rich punks to war and watch the wealthy elite shit a brick.

[AzDar]

94. Better idea... let's elect smart leaders who don't start unnecessary fucking wars.

Or trot out cheap political stunts.

[Owl]

123. Agreed.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

95. He's an idiot.

[olddad56]

111. or, maybe you are. Who really knows

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

113. Now we get to listen to the repubs tell people that the dems are trying to start a draft.

So he's the idiot. I hope that clears it up.

David

[ohio2007]

141. Murtha isn't a rethug and I wonder if he signs on

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

142. Probably will he's an idiot too.

[lovuian]

107. if the Democratics think they are going to draft

these SOB

[Infinite Hope]

114. Rangel needs to go the way of Jefferson. Dems need to cast off their corrupt members of questionable

sanity.

[Nihil]

122. Both Senate & Congress would be pretty empty if both parties did that ...

> Dems need to cast off their corrupt members of questionable sanity.

(Not to mention the occasional online forum or two ...)
:hi:

[karynnj]

126. That is really not true

It would depend where you draw the line. There are people who have been in both houses for decades and have retained their integrity. Of long serving Democrats I have never heard Kennedy, Leahy, Kerry, Durbin, Lautenberg, Harkin, Reed, Feingold and many others ever had any real corruption scandal. (I stopped listing realizing that I was going to miss many good people - this should though show there are many top senior people who are pretty clean.)

[hayu_lol]

130. There are, currently, about 38 Bush family members...

who are of draft age. Not ONE is serving.

Both genders should have to register and serve. That will stop most minor conflicts. We have a fairly good sized population of family values people who will not stand for drafting females. Ya know, the flag waving patriotic fundy family values people.

The draft bill that was proposed a few years ago also had a clause where the draftees would be paid only a fraction of what the regulars received. Repugs were behind that one.

[silverojo]

137. He needs to just shut the fuck up. - n/t

[ohio2007]

140. won't win many college campus voters with that unless he wants to re live the 60's in his old age

[ohio2007]

145. a graph to throw at Rangles pie hole

contrary to Mr. Rangel's assertions that "the burden of fighting wars falls disproportionately on low-income people," the current U.S. military is not composed of the losers in life's lottery as Mr. Rangel apparently posits. Instead:




http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda08-05.cfm