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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:17 PM
Original message
Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'
Source: Guardian UK

Incoming administration will abandon Bush's isolation of Islamist group to initiate low-level diplomacy, say transition sources


The incoming Obama administration is prepared to abandon President Bush's doctrine of isolating Hamas by establishing a channel to the Islamist organisation, sources close to the transition team say.

The move to open contacts with Hamas - which could be initiated through the US intelligence services - would represent a definitive break with the Bush presidency's ostracising of the group.

The Guardian has spoken to three people with knowledge of the discussions in the Obama camp.

There is no talk of Obama approving direct diplomatic negotiations with Hamas early on in his administration, but he is being urged by advisers to initiate low-level or clandestine approaches, and there is growing recognition in Washington that the policy of ostracising Hamas is counter-productive.

A tested course would be to start contacts through Hamas and the US intelligence services - similar to the secret process through which the US engaged with the PLO in the 1970s. Israel did not become aware of the contacts until much later.


..more..

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/08/barack-obama-gaza-hamas
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good. nt
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. GOOD. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
StudsT Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. WOW - now that is what i'm talk'n bout!
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 06:35 PM by StudsT
Israel does it ALL THE TIME (though they never admit it publicly - freaks)

smart move O :toast:

StudsT
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global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. It;s About Time People Started Talking Instead of Fighting.....nt
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ellie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thank God
This madness must end.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. A good first start.
This should have been done when they were democratically elected -- perhaps a load of hurt could have been avoided on both sides.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. America Is Primarily at Fault for the Conflict in Gaza
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 07:12 PM by G_j
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/america-is-primarily-at-f_b_154285.html

America Is Primarily at Fault for the Conflict in Gaza -Cenk Uygur

<snip>
So, let me offer you something you hardly ever hear in the American media. The American government had a great deal to do with the outbreak of violence in the Gaza Strip right now. The Bush administration demanded - against the advice of nearly every expert in the field and the Israeli government - that the Palestinians hold elections. They did. Hamas won.

When Hamas won, we could have pulled them in toward the direction of political action and reconciliation. Instead, we chose to isolate them, start a coup against them (read this terrific article in Vanity Fair about our attempt to overthrow Hamas) and further radicalize them. We made a mockery of the idea of democracy. We proved to them that we never meant a word of the so-called Freedom Doctrine. We only wanted elections in which our guys won.

This kind of hypocrisy has consequences. It sends a message that democracy and voting doesn't work. And our botched coup against Hamas had the effect of sending the message that violence is the answer. If you don't get your way, the proper course of action is to try to change the results through use of force.

We should have never insisted on the elections that everyone - but the inane Bush team - realized Hamas was going to win. It's not that elections are a bad idea, but it was too early in this instance. We should have laid the groundwork for Palestinians to vote in a direction that would have led to more constructive solutions. Instead, as usual, Bush was lazy and insisted on getting his way right away.

And if we were going to have elections, we absolutely, positively should have recognized the legitimate results of those elections and dealt with the consequences. In fact, this might have pulled Hamas into a governing role that demanded more pragmatism and a less radical outlook. It's easier to be a radical when you don't have to get anything done.
<snip>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2009/01/11618_gaza_war_bushs_legacy.html

Gaza War Bush's Parting Gift to Middle East

At one point or another, most American presidents concern themselves with bringing peace to the Middle East. Ultimately, all other foreign policy achievements pale in comparison. It's the brass ring of presidential greatness, the elusive key to ensuring kind treatment in the eyes of history. Such thinking must become particularly acute as presidents reach the twilight of their terms and begin in earnest the inevitable consideration of how they will be remembered. Bill Clinton made a last-ditch effort late in his second term to become the great peacemaker. He failed, as had all others before him. But at least he tried. For his part, our current outgoing commander in chief, just weeks away from relinquishing his office, has steadfastly refused to get involved even as Gaza disintegrates into violence.

Not that this should come as a surprise. Bush's lack of engagement this late in the game, says the National Security Network, is nothing if not consistent with the rest of his term. As the group describes in press release issued today:

episodic involvement has been muddled and without coherent vision: supporting Palestinian elections in 2006, despite the very clear possibility that Hamas would win, then refusing to honor the results; asserting that the 'road to Jerusalem ran through Baghdad;' belatedly engaging through the Annapolis peace conference, which has proved to be too little too late. Experts and regional actors with differing views on the road ahead share the belief that the US absence from the scene is counterproductive and harmful to the interests of all concerned. The outbreak of war in Gaza confirms that after eight years in office the Bush administration will leave behind a region that is further from achieving a lasting peace than when it came to office.
A tough accusation to be sure, but one that enjoys support from an unlikely array of former diplomats and foreign policy specialists across the political spectrum. Bush's own first-term ambassador to Israel, Daniel Kurtzer, acknowledges the administration's shortcomings. "The sum total is that if you measure Israeli security at the beginning of this administration and at the end of the administration, based on things the president either could have done, should have done or failed to do, the report card is pretty negative," he says.

Several other former US ambassadors to Israel, Egypt, Pakistan, Tunisia, Bahrain, and the United Arab Emirates, contributed to a policy paper (.pdf) released by the Israeli Policy Forum, which accuses the Bush administration's inaction of enabling the violence in Gaza and damaging the security interests of the United States:

"During the past eight years, the United States has appeared to have no sense of urgency about ending the Arab-Israeli conflict... The Bush administration did not pick up where Clinton left off, giving the impression that the United States was indifferent to the worsening conditions (the second intifada) on the ground in Israel and the Occupied Territories. This seeming indifference helped turn public opinion against the United States throughout the Muslim world to the disadvantage of a myriad of U.S. interests"

..more..
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ShadesOfGrey Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Grrr... Good example of piss poor US intervention. nt
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Exactly - a missed opportunity -
would it have worked out? who knows. I'm no seer, nor prognosticator. But it should have been tried. For one thing, permitting a democratically elected government the opportunity to begin to pursue productive measures for its' citizens would have made it accountable to them. It was worth a try - and not doing so harmed the people of Gaza, and made things no better for the people of Israel.

At least, more reporting seems to be being done on the atrocities inflicted on the people of Gaza at the hands of the IDF.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. well said
"..permitting a democratically elected government the opportunity to begin to pursue productive measures for its' citizens.."

you might find post 11 interesting if you haven't read it,
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. Sanity is being restored.
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alsame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Good. n/t
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ShadesOfGrey Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. Very cool. nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
12. With his PNAC and AIPAC pick for Mideast envoy?
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 06:49 PM by sfexpat2000
I'm dizzy here. Does this make sense in some way that I'm just too dim to get?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3679235
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. another snip,
<snip>

Richard Haass, a diplomat under both presidents Bush who was named by a number of news organisations this week as Obama's choice for Middle East envoy, supports low level contacts with Hamas provided there is a ceasefire in place and a Hamas-Fatah reconciliation emerges.

Another potential contender for a foreign policy role in the Obama administration suggested the president-elect would not be bound by the Bush doctrine of isolating Hamas. "This is going to be an administration that is committed to negotiating with critical parties on critical issues," they said.

<snip>

...a ceasefire in place and a Hamas-Fatah reconciliation,

that's a pretty tall order
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. It's also completely incredible given Holbrooke and Ross.
What, are they going to get a lobotomy before 1/20? :shrug:
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. Excellent.
They should not feel they have to kill to be heard.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. Good. n/t
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Hope And Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
18. A step in the right direction.
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oneruncanwinagame Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
19. Thank God
The Bush policy of not engaging enemies was purely retarded. 
Ask the NYPD counter-terrorism what they do?  They will
NEGOTIATE WITH ANYONE to save lives.  

And what is the alternative??  "You are sub-human so we
will only deal with you via fist, we will not lower ourselves
to actually speak to you".  Sounds like a great plan to
stop the radicalization of Muslim youth.  

Speaking of radicalization, Israel's war crimes and the
immense humanitarian crisis in Gaza are going to do just that,
radicalize muslim youth.  Who will pay the price?  U.S., U.K.,
France, India.  

In light of the above, and with apologies to all my Jewish
friends, I now view Israel as a rogue terrorist state whoe
actions represent a threat to the national security of the
United States.  If I was Obama, I would threaten to pull all
Military aid to Israel for War crimes, and I would have them
agree to every clause of a peace deal I wanted them to.  They
are but a pissant little country and it's time they stopped
making enemies for us.  Let them fight their own battles with
their own weapons and their own little army.  Let's see how
many invasions they want to pull of then to save some
politicians asses before an election . . .
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
20. After the recent bombing they should be more amenable to
compromise.

:(

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oneruncanwinagame Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Maybe . . .
We should also cut off our military aid to terrorist organizations that fire on U.N. humanitarian vehicles and compounds as well Red Cross ambulances and personnel. That don't let humanitarian aid reach civilians and that use collective punishment of civilians in their military operations.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Welcome to DU, you are making too much sense :) n/t
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
24. A good beginning!
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
25. If Bush knew how to access the internets
he would be shitting a brick right now.
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. K & R
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
27. I think the Israeli's are aware of this and have made it a goal
To eliminate Hamas before 1/20/09 so that there will be no need to talk to them.
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