Madoff's assets to be kept secret

[Robbien]

Source: Sydney Morning Herald

THE US Securities and Exchange Commission, which sued Bernard Madoff last month for allegedly directing a $US50 billion ($71 billion) fraud, is to withhold public access to a list of his assets filed on Wednesday.

A federal judge ordered Madoff to provide the commission with an account of all investments, loans, lines of credit, business interests, brokerage accounts and other holdings. The court

did not authorise its public disclosure, said a commission spokesman, Andrew Calamari, who confirmed receipt of the list.

"I think one of the fears here is that much of this money may be in offshore funds," said Professor John Coffee, of Columbia Law School, adding the commission wanted to keep the assets secret to protect them.

Read more: http://business.smh.com.au/business/madoffs-assets-to-be-kept-secret-20090101-78f7.html

---

They really don't want too much discussion of how prevalent offshore accounts are in the investment/hedge fund business.

[jody]

1. If US has the authority to invade another country and kidnap its CEO for drug crimes, e.g.Noriega,

surely we have the authority to invade other countries and seize all assets owned by financial criminals like Madoff.

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. This smells.

[earth mom]

5. Wall Street & everyone there REEKS to high heaven!

A bunch of thieves and crooks, the lot of them! :grr:

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. Remember when that photographer pushed Madoff?

In that instant, Madoff fell from the Penthouse floor and became the sludge in the gutter.

[earth mom]

Yep, except that Madoff still thinks his s**t doesn't stink & he is as pure as the driven snow.

As does the rest of Wall Street & the rich/privileged. :grr:


We all need to wake up:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4745640

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4742720

[SpiralHawk]

60. Major republicon stinkola smell

fer sure

Republicons about to screw America and Americans deeper and harder...

[Solly Mack]

3. K&R

[fascisthunter]

4. Very Telling isn't It

me thinks off-shore accounts to avoid paying tax here in the USa is much more prevalent than many in the upper brackets of prosperity want us to know.

[nashville_brook]

6. yeah, it's called "Wealth Management" and it's been heavily marketed since about 2001.

[fascisthunter]

7. "heavily marketed"? No kidding....

why am I not surprised...


Republican objective(Bush Years)=starve government so corporate America and their rich cronies can run over us all.

On edit: not to run over us all as much as it is their desire to gather wealth for themselves any which way they see fit even if it has implications on the lives of others.

[Lorien]

13. Yep. Disaster capitalism at it's finest. nt

[nashville_brook]

17. i was in financial services marketing for a while 2003-4, and wealth management

was one of the products -- the main product after mortgages -- being pushed at the time. in order to write copy and design pages for this particular product i set out to understand it (which was strangely discouraged by my boss). i wanted to know what on earth a "wealth manager" brought to the table. what exactly are we selling. i could never get an answer and had to go with a general "wealth team" concept (put a CFO on your money team). i still didn't understand what it was we did or how we made money at it.

then, years later when ING 'got caught stealing' it became evident that the "product" being sold was off-shoring assets, tax shelters, etc. My managers knew damn well what the "product" was and also knew the problems with it. "wink and nudge" marketing -- the target audience will know, don't you worry. where the fuck was the SEC?

i'll tell you where -- in the pocket of the banks and biggest thieves.

[truedelphi]

31. Thank you for sharing that. If you work at the SEC you make like 200K but

Once you prove yourself to be valuable to the bigger players, when you serve out your term at the SEC, then you can move into management positions with invetment firms and be paid two million.

Much as how when you work at the FDA, you are paid around $ 150K, and if you are friendly with the pesticide and pharmaceutical companies, that will work out well for you too.

Like Greg Palast says, We have the best government money can buy!!

[ikojo]

49. This has been going on for a long time

I first heard about it from a former friend who worked in the IT department of a local accounting firm. She said that toward the end of the year they spend much time moving money around so their well heeled clients can avoid paying taxes.

[Blue_Tires]

57. it goes back way farther than that

my dad was buying the "beat the taxman" books back in the mid-90s, but about 2001 was the time when they stopped even pretending to cover it up all those 'business' trips to the caymans...

i always found it ironic, because they will look at you with a straight face and say they are entitled to go offshore because uncle sam takes too much of their income...but i'm also amused at how fiercely they fight any top bracket tax increase -- wouldn't they just continue to go offshore anyways?

[Turbineguy]

9. This is probably a good idea- for now.

That way there will be something left to divide among his victims.

[riderinthestorm]

21. The vast majority of Madoff's wealth is hidden and inaccessible and will never be given back

to his victims. That's what's so ridiculous about keeping his assets list private. It ensures that the victims DON'T know exactly what assets may be available.

Oh sure, the big houses and cars and jets etc. will be sold off but make no mistake - this is "pocket change" stuff in relation to the BILLIONS that he's hidden in off shore accounts. BILLIONS. When you examine the staggering losses of even a couple foundations that lost $145 million or $160 million a piece - and that's just a couple out of many thousands of people, institutions and foundations "invested" (sic) into Madoff's fund - the amount of money that's sure to be awol is vast.

[Baby Snooks]

22. Who's going to take the money?

You think people are just going to show up at banks and say "I'm Bernie Madoff and I want to withdraw my money?"

Either they want to cover up as much as possible or they fear public reaction, as in riots in Manhattan and Palm Beach, when it's revealed there's not much there. My money is on there's not much there. They could have at least disclosed even an estimate of what is there. There really is no reason not to. I suspect quite a few attorneys will be in court tomorrow seeking the information. More than likely the SEC and the Justice Department will refuse to disclose. Claiming an "ongoing criminal investigation." As in "developing cover up." Although I don't know how you can cover up $50 billion, now $30 billion according to some including AP, that is just gone. Someone will eventually ask where it all went. It had to have gone somewhere. Even losing it, someone else gained it. In Las Vegas, it's called the house. A bank or a hedge fund or someone has the money. Money itself just doesn't disappear. That doesn't mean anyone will get it back. Only that someone has it. Ordinarily there would be stocks and bonds. Even losing half the value, the stocks and bonds would still be there. The reality is it appears there were none. Bernie Madoff apparently was playing the money markets. In particular the hedge funds. And so, again, what he lost, someone gained. So the money is there somewhere. It just isn't his money.

The rich protect themselves. The rich crooks protect themselves as well.

[Octafish]

10. Super-rich hide trillions offshore

The Guardian (U.K.) estimates 11.5 trillion -- but that was before Operation GOLDMINE, the incredible Wall Street Bailout Crisis of 2008.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/mar/27/politics.economicpolicy

[Lorien]

15. Bookmarked

and here state governments are talking about selling off our parks and roads to these assholes because of the lack of TAX REVENUE!

There is a class war, and their the ones winning it. :-(

[natrat]

41. and remember all the scumbag democratic enablers who made it all possible

[Octafish]

52. Here's my 2-cents.

Know your BFEE: Phil Gramm, the Meyer Lansky of the War Party, Set-Up the Biggest Bank Heist Ever.

If the former chairman of NASDAQ is a crook, who's to say what part of Wall Street isn't crooked?

Thanks for understanding the big picture, Lorien.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

29. At a nice 8% return.

:grr:

[Octafish]

54. The Madoff Mind

For once, I'm glad not to be in the in-crowd.

The Madoff Mind

You, OTOH, RUMMYisFROSTED, I hope you got out early and kept your cash safe-n-sound.

[chimpymustgo]

63. What to do with retirement accounts that have already lost 1/3 of value, plus riduculous taxation

penalties for early withdrawal? The average worker is forced into the Wall Street Casino/scam and can't get out.

[Joanne98]

11. Wouldn't want to talk about those offshore accounts!

That might screw up "the rich pay taxes" myth!

[valerief]

30. Bingo! nt

[Jambalaya]

42. Only little people pay taxes?

Goldman Sachs cuts taxes to one percent by moving profits offshore-John Byrne
Published: Thursday December 18, 2008

Bank takes $10 billion bailout, then cuts tax rate 33 percent:

Say you got a ten billion dollar loan to shore up your finances, and you paid your employees $10.9 billion, and you raked in $2.3 billion for the year.

What would you say you owed in taxes? One percent?

That’s what you’d pay if you were Goldman Sachs, Inc. The high-flying brokerage—and former home of Bush Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson—has announced it’s paying just $14 million in taxes this year.

Last year, their tax bill was $6 billion, or 34.1 percent. That represents a year-over-year drop of 33.1 percent.

Goldman attributed its lower tax rate to “more tax credits as a percentage of earnings” and “changes in geographic earnings mix.”

Texas Democrat Rep. Lloyd Doggett, who serves on the House Ways and Means Committee, said Goldman, like other banks, shifted income to countries with lower taxes to reduce its tax burden.

“This problem is larger than Goldman Sachs,” Doggett told Bloomberg. “With the right hand out begging for bailout money, the left is hiding it offshore.”------------------Bloomberg via Pro Publica

[Jambalaya]

12. Is Israel considered "offshore"?

How's about a lot of the money is over in Israel? Or,for a real humdinger,in Palestine?

[closeupready]

16. Of course. Remember that Israeli guy who

had been convicted of murder here in the US, had fled to Israel, and then Israeli authorities wouldn't extradite him to the US on grounds that Israel does not extradite Jewish people, IIRC.

[Jambalaya]

37. Kosher Nostra

Check out Wayne Madsen Report website. Terrific info on how he and the"beard" made off with the big bux!

[Behind the Aegis]

59. Wayne Madsen? The raging anti-Semite?

Yeah, real reliable source.

[Behind the Aegis]

58. Any facts to back up this assertion?

[closeupready]

64. The case of Samuel Sheinbein.

Though I guess techincally, the charge of murder was never proven.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-494047_ITM

[Behind the Aegis]

66. Another technicality.

He wasn't extradited because he was considered an Israeli citizen, not because he was Jewish, as you claimed was the reason.

[closeupready]

67. Six of one, half dozen of another.

n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

68. "Israeli" and "Jewish" aren't interchangeable.

[closeupready]

69. Oh, whatever.

If splitting hairs is your thing, go for it. You've conceded my point, thank you very much, have a nice night.

[Behind the Aegis]

71. Pathetic. It is not "splitting hairs."

And, if you say that and more importantly, believe that, I better never, ever see you scream about being called an anti-Semite for being "critical" of Israel.

[closeupready]

72. So Sheinbein, who had NEVER been to Israel, was covered by Israeli law against extradition

- for what reason? Surely there was a good reason, so please do inform me.

[Behind the Aegis]

73. From your own freaking link!

This was the last event in the Sheinbein case which resembled an ordinary murder prosecution. Thereafter, events rapidly mushroomed. Under an Israeli law enacted in 1978, the Offenses Committed Abroad Act, Israel will not extradite suspects who were Israeli citizens at the time their alleged offense was committed.(6) Accordingly, Sheinbein, even though he was born in the United States and had never lived in Israel, claimed that he was an Israeli citizen.(7) He based his claim on the nationality of his father, Sol, who was born in territory within the British Mandate of Palestine, and emigrated to the United States in 1950.(8) Sheinbein thus claimed that under the Israel nationality law, which grants citizenship to any person with Israeli parents, he was an Israeli national and could not be extradited.(9)

[closeupready]

74. Okay, look, we are talking in circles or something, and arguing about side issues.

We are probably on the same side on most other issues, and it's a new day, lol, so I wish you peace and love and prosperity in the New Year, friend! Cheers. :)

[Behind the Aegis]

75. Happy New Year to you, as well.

BtA

[Rosa Luxemburg]

14. offshore and in other interesting places

[Phred42]

18. The Oligarchy protecting itself

Simple as that

[bluesmail]

19. May I recomend a web site that is a contender for best business blog?

http://deepcapture.com Mark Mitchell has a fascinating report on Madoff and other greedheads.

[starroute]

20. The smell is the same as the smell of BCCI and Enron

When BCCI went down, something like $21 billion was never recovered. (And Geeorge Terwilliger, who is now Alberto Gonzales's attorney, but was then working for the Bush Sr. administration, apparently had a lot to do with not looking for it very hard.)

When Enron crashed out, more billions had vanished into offshore subsidiaries and have never been accounted for.

The stink is the stink of money-laundering, and the result when one of these operations closes down with no real accounting is to take cash off the public books and convert it into an invisible and unaccountable global slush fund.

What happens after that is anyone's guess, but stealing elections might be a handy use for some of those billions if one were so minded. (Come to think of it, George Terwilliger was also one of the lead lawyers on the Bush 2000 Florida recount team.)

When a criminal operation like Madoff's keeps going for as long as it did without anybody acting on what should have been highly visible warning signs, two questions immediately come to mind. One is, to whose benefit was it to have it keep going for all these years? The other is, who benefits now that it has come to an end?

[Baby Snooks]

27. The Ponzi scheme...

It just doesn't make sense. If he was handling $50 billion in assets for clients then to be able to even pay them 5% interest then he would have had to have been pulling in a lot of money every month to cover it all. About $2.5 billion per year. Divided by 12 about $200 million per month. He apparently was paying them an average of 10% the past year. So that's $400 million a month. That's a lot to be pulling in each month from new investors. And just not likely. His history, and his reputation, was in electronic trading. He in fact revolutionized the trading industry.

It's possible that in 2001 to cover losses from what some call a "mini-crash" he began to sell the equities as they began to recover and started playing the money markets. And did well. And then suddenly didn't do too well. And then suddenly, there was nothing left. Keep in mind what set this in motion was his confession to his sons. When he attempted to get them to take their bonus early. As in while the check would clear?

That right there is a big red flag. If he was skimming money off for himself, he would have been skimming money off for them as well. And so it wouldn't have been important for them to take their bonus early. He would have just taken care of them from one of the accounts he had set up for himself. The point is, he wanted them to take the bonus early.

Another red flag is the bond. $10 million is not that much given his position. But he didn't have it. He had to put up the deeds to two properties. Courts like everyone else like cash. They take collateral when there is no cash. Many go to a bank and borrow against the property to make the bond. The banks of course may have realized he had no actual cash to cover the loan and property in this market is very risky to loan against. No one had seized his assets at the time. Only the assets of the firm. He simply didn't have $10 million in cash.

It's also possible if he was playing the money markets that he was set up. Someone has the money he lost. And of course a lot of wealthy Jews no longer have money. And they of course no longer have the money to support liberal causes. I don't think people are paying attention to that and they should.

Enron basically fell apart when the assets backing the loans that were keeping Enron solvent were discovered to not have any real value. But there were assets. Enron could have been saved. Some believe someone set it up to make sure it collapsed.

As for BCCI that was indeed a massive money laundering scheme. But of course like Iran-Contra it involve the Bushes and the Bakers and the Candlestickmakers as I call them. And we don't go there in this country. They control it all. Part of this may involve money laundering as well. Why suddenly some are "adjusting" their losses. They didn't really lose $50 million. They lost $5 million. On the books they only invested $5 million. But may have lost $50 million. But $45 million was laundered in order to evade taxes. He didn't have that many clients. So they may get caught. Or they may not. It depends on whether he was set up. If he was set up, well, they don't anyone getting too curious. So they will let it go. After all, the people who evaded taxes have lost it all. Greed in this case may have proven to be its own punishment.

There is a "paper trail" of where Bernie Madoff invested or deposited his clients' money. But I bet that trail will ever be disclosed even to the attorneys for the investors. I personally think he was set up.

[Stephanie]

50. I'd be interested in your take on this story about Carlyle Group

And their possible imminent collapse:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4750574

[chimpymustgo]

65. Can you elaborate on how you think Madoff was set up? THanks. n/t

[Jambalaya]

36. Smells like dirty laundry!

McCain and BCCI, the Bush Bank

Before he was selected to as Ronald Reagan’s 1980 running mate, George H.W. Bush had a short and little-known career as an international banker. That effectively started in 1976, while Bush was still CIA Director, a post he held for part of the Nixon and Ford Administration. In the final months of the Ford presidency, Bush made a deal with the newly-appointed head of Saudi General Intelligence Directorate, Prince Turki al-Faisal. The two spy chiefs agreed the CIA would look the other way while the Saudis ran their own global operations. In exchange, the Saudis financed the sort of black ops that had been banned by the Democratic Congress after Watergate and the Church Committee hearings. The arrangement was called “The Safari Club” , and the funding mechanism for this was the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, “BCCI”. See, http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/8/146... ; http://www.saudiembassy.net/2006News/State...

Newly-elected President Jimmy Carter fired the CIA Director. In early 1977, Houston banker Joe Allbritton appointed Bush to direct his First International Bancshares (dba, First Interbank) and its London and Luxembourg affiliates. According to Kevin Phillips, Bush’s bank was among the first outposts in America for BCCI. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0111-0... In the early 1980s, Allbritton followed G.H.W. to Washington, purchasing Riggs Bank, installing brother Jonathan Bush as a Director_____________leveymgjournals

[lovuian]

23. Madoff just like Ken Lay is a front man for money

laundering and was purposefully set up to steal all those rich folks money as well as manipulate the markets

People we are talking about manipulators and power brokers of the highest order

for all we know he could be Black ops

but they want that money they have no intention of giving it back either

[pattmarty]

24. Put this motherfucker in jail with Leon, Juan, and Clyde and THEN...........

.........we can talk about withholding, funds, accounts and whatever when they are done with him.

[NJCher]

25. no mystery about where the money went

I don't understand why it's such a mystery where the money went. It went to pay off people who were cashing out of the fund. For decades people cashed out of that fund with no problem whatsoever. It was only when this recession and subsequent depression hit that people started getting verrrrry nervous and so many people cashed out that Madoff couldn't keep up with it all.

The rest of the money went to pay the 15% return on the investments, which is a helluva ROI. Think of the billions invested with him and then think about what paying out 15% on a regular basis must have been like.

Ask around and most people who are playing it safe with their money aren't getting any more than 5% now.

Another place it went is to make up losses. Madoff's "loss" months were very, very few and far between. But in reality, he most likely lost money when everyone else lost money, so that was another "sink" for the money.

Sure, Bernie has a stash somewhere but I read where it's only around $200 million or so and of that, he was trying to funnel it to people who worked for him! Yes, even while admitting the theft of these billions, he was still trying to take it from his investors and give it to his employees, making it all the more difficult for the "justice system" to get it back for the investors.



Cher

p.s. thanks for the link, bluesmail. I'm always looking for interesting Madoff reading.

[McCamy Taylor]

26. Bet a nickel Madoff laundered money for the CIA, NSA etc.

Bet he never sees the inside of Club Fed either, for the reason above. Covert projects conducted by the NeoCons have eaten up the retirement savings of a bunch of Americans and there is nothing that they will be able to do about it. Wait and see.

[zogtheobvious]

28. If you're right..

...look for him to keel over from a sudden "heart attack" in the coming months, like Ken Lay did.

[valerief]

32. I wonder where they all go after their "heart attacks." nt

[ooglymoogly]

34. Winkin Blinkin and Nod, one night sailed off in a wooden shoe....(To the kingdom of Qatar)

Where they live in golden palaces
of of marble of white and blue
and make little kingdoms of immeasurable loot
built of glistening bars of gold
with every imaginable fantasy
with boys and girls to boot
while Wall st, our government and bankers gives a cheerful fairtheewell
all the while cheating and stealing waiting their turn in hell.
Its called C-eye-A bailout to the land of Winkin, Blinkin and nod.

[valerief]

40. And I thought it was Kuwait. Sheesh. nt

[tom_paine]

56. Probably a walled palatial retreat in the Grand Caymans. Dubai is far too exposed for these cutouts

with their new taxpayer-paid-fpr-new-faces-and identities.

Dubai is for Bushie Elites who can remain public.

The Grand Caymans for the Ken Lays of the world.

[ooglymoogly]

70. a little refinement to the story of winkin blinkin and nod with footnote

Winkin, Blinkin and Nod one night
sailed off in a wooden shoe(1)
They sailed off ever so quietly
in state coffins marked clear and bold
to open is verboten, state secrets are enclosed
and off they sail to a land so far
to the Kingdom of Qatar
in hopeless smog, in blankets of fog
to any friendly place
ports selling their souls
selling their souls for coin
to the many vultures of evil
for power, for greed who knows
for twenty pieces of silver
for a hundred pieces of gold
Places of mighty forgiveness
to those forever well healed
to build golden palaces
in fortress walls
of marbles granites and steel
with pathways, terraces and tennis courts
paved with what else
millions of bars of gold.
with storehouses and storehouses
of greedily stolen loot
with silver bells and cockle shells
swimming pools with waterfalls
and several yachts to boot
with this and that a plenty of those
they live in a pampered hell
but not to worry and don't despair
of boys and girls there are plenty
bottles of booze and plenty of schmooze
you'd think hell was heaven
with all of this and all of that
there is still to little to share
while Wall street, bankers and government
steal all that is not bolted down
with a fond farewell, a wink and nod
they tip their hats to a good ole boy
supposedly gone to hell
cheating, stealing and pillaging
they too wend their way to hell
waiting their brief moment in the stony crypts
waiting for the bell
awaiting the inevitable relief
called the "C eye A bailout"
disappeared and forever forgotten
to the land of golden shells
to the shimmering mirage of mirrors
proclaiming loudly your success.
to the neon, blinking, "holy land" to the land of Winkin and Nods

(1)this shoe was never thrown at any president...especially not *.

[NashVegas]

43. Drug Interests

Sit down with the British version of the movie "Traffic" some time.

[tom_paine]

55. Bingo. n/t

[Trillo]

33. Setec Astronomy. nt

[ooglymoogly]

35. No they put it in their sneakers

where there are already too many secrets.

[Sultana]

38. Disgusting! push the class war into high gear

[Jambalaya]

39. Who ya gonna' believe?

CNN is referring to the Madoff scandal as "ALLEGED" fraud! Excuse me, didn't Madoff ADMIT to fraud?

[geckosfeet]

44. "I think that one of the fears is" ,,,, BULLSHIT. My bet is that they are protecting

the identity of well know Wall Street firms and institutions who either did not do due business diligence or were complicit by voluntary negligence in Madoff's scheme.

Because, if we knew who fucked up so badly, and we had any money invested with them, we would pull it out because they have demonstrated that they are untrustworthy and incompetent.

So, why are they being protected and not the little guy? Why has the law been turned on its head? This smells like a RICO case.

[bjobotts]

45. The Treasury handed out the bailout money so quickly, it failed to track it"

[bjobotts]

46. Of course his money is off shore...he's a thief...hiding his take.

[bjobotts]

47. This is the kind of person torture actually works on.Lies can be checked immediately

[bjobotts]

48. Stole billions from Ameicans...how terrorizing can you get.?

[sam sarrha]

51. this is just the thing Obama has been look'n for to require making offshore accounts public an tax'n

them

[natrat]

62. yea but half his cabinet plus 90% of congress are thugs so dont count on it

[Mind_your_head]

53. Of course......

don't want to set off a panic now do we? Now how is THAT for squeezing someone's balls? Can the SEC say, "ouch"?

[Madison knows]

61. He must have one hell of an attorney.