Israel moves forward and sends more troops to Gaza

[DogPoundPup]

Source: Yahoo / AP

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israel sent more troops to the Gaza border Wednesday, rapidly moving forward with preparations for a possible ground offensive as the next stage of its military assault on the coastal territory's Hamas rulers. Israel rebuffed calls by world leaders for a truce, and Hamas also was cold to a cease-fire.

Instead, both intensified their fire. Israel bombed a mosque that it said was used to store rockets as well as vital smuggling tunnels along the Egyptian border, and the Islamic militants hammered southern Israeli cities with about 60 rockets.

Israeli troops trudged between dozens of tanks in muddy, rain-sodden fields outside Gaza, assembling equipment, cleaning weapons and scrubbing out tank barrels. Their commanders moved forward with preparations for a ground operation, said an Israeli defense official who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the information.

The U.N. Security Council scheduled emergency consultations Wednesday night to discuss an Arab request for a legally binding and enforceable resolution to ensure an immediate cease-fire in Gaza. Egyptian Ambassador Maged Abdelaziz said he was on instructions from Arab League foreign ministers who met in Cairo.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081231/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

[Idealism]

1. "Hamas also was cold to a cease-fire"

My ass, they told the head of the U.N. Security Council they wanted a truce.

More bullshit from AP "journalists".

[GoesTo11]

3. Link?

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

10. Where is the link to Hamas going to the UN Security Council to ask for a truce? nt

[Idealism]

13. They asked the council to urge leaders to help

the UN accepted their plea

] On Sunday, the UN Security Council approved a non-binding statement calling for "an immediate halt to all violence" in Gaza and urging all sides "to stop immediately all military activities."

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/30-9

[GoesTo11]

14. This doesn't say anything about them asking the council anything.

As far as I can tell, Hamas has not said it wants a ceasefire. It wants Israel to cease fire, but that's not the same thing.

[Idealism]

19. Well considering they aren't bombing cities

I would say Hamas wants a cease-fire

[oberliner]

22. Hamas rocket reaches Beersheba

Gaza militants have fired rockets at the Israeli city of Beersheba, 40 km (24 miles) from the Gaza Strip.

One rocket hit an empty kindergarten and another landed in open space. There were no reports of casualties from the strikes. Schoolchildren and students have been advised to stay at home because of the threat of further attacks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7805842.stm

[Idealism]

30. Is a rocket that can kill at max 3 people comparable to a GBU-39?

Nope.

[Pavulon]

32. Chicken and egg

shooting rockets at people may make them drop ordinance on you. Fact of life.

[Idealism]

35. Too bad Hamas was retaliating

The rocket fire from them was in retaliation to tunnels being bombed last month by IDF

[Pavulon]

37. No they shot them the entire time

they were all over NPR talking about how stoked they were to kill Israelis and die. Looks like they are getting it half right.

Again they should use those AK for something other than weddings and photo ops.

[Idealism]

40. Here are some things to look up:

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3617798,00.html">IDF leaves Gaza after op, 6 gunmen killed Latest Update:11.05.08, 06:57

IDF troops have completed their operation in the Gaza Strip, and are currently preparing to leave the Hamas-ruled Palestinian territory. Two soldiers were moderately wounded and four others sustained light injuries from a mortar shell, they were evacuated to the Soroka Medical Center in Beersheba for treatment.

For the first time since the ceasefire took effect in June, IDF forces operated deep in the Gaza Strip Tuesday night in a bid to collapse a tunnel located 250 meters (273 yards) from the border...

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0812/S00563.htm">Gush Shalom Press Release: December 27, 2008

The escalation towards war could and should have been avoided. It was the State of Israel which broke the truce, in the 'ticking tunnel' raid on the night of the US elections two months ago. Since then the army went on stoking the fires of escalation with calculated raids and killings, whenever the shooting of missiles on Israel decreased.

The reason Israel gave at the time of bombing the 'ticking tunnels' were that they claimed Hamas was using the tunnels to capture IDF soldiers, although there is no evidence of this anywhere being reported in the past two months. The tunnels were the only way to get in food, cooking oil, etc due to the two-year long blockade of Gaza by IDF forces.

[oberliner]

93. The point is that Hamas continues to launch rockets at Israeli cities

You inaccurately claimed that wasn't happening.

That is in addition to your unsubstantiated claim that Hamas had asked the Security Council for a truce.

[Idealism]

96. I didn't claim rocket fire wasn't happen, read again

I said it was RETALIATION for what Israel did on Nov. 5th 2008.

I can't seem to find where Hamas asked Russia to ask the Security Council to step in, you're right, but when I do you'll be the first to know. But, what does that have to do with the fact that Israel is in the wrong, that they started this latest conflict?

[oberliner]

117. Here's what you wrote:

"Well considering they aren't bombing cities I would say Hamas wants a cease-fire"

My claim is that they were in fact bombing cities as evidenced from the article about Beersheba that I posted.

As to who started this latest conflict, I would say there is a lot of blame to go around.

Hamas did not have to declare the cease fire over and launch a barrage of rockets against Israel on December 24th.

Israel did not have to launch an attack of this magnitude into Gaza.

I think both sides were looking for a conflict to be honest, for a variety of reasons.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

119. The tunnel raid is a fact, no one disputes that, but there were prior violations by

both sides.

Gush Shalom is a good source for opinions, not facts

[ProgressiveProfessor]

115. There is no "i" in ordnance (meaning weapons)

You may now return to the food fight in progress ;-)

[Pavulon]

118. Systemic Failure of firefox spellcecker

leads to grammar catestrophe. ha!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

121. Ordinance is a law, Ordnance is a bomb

[Pavulon]

124. Broke both..

while in NG. No alcohol allowed on KFOR deployment. No shit, that was the rule. Not a drop for a year. That worked well.

"someone i know" offloaded (sober) a D6 (30,000 lb dozer) onto a humvee. Destroying it and all gear inside. Smashed the shit out of it. They were not armored them so it just squished.

Damaged in transit by shipper was how the paper work read.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

112. Yes...the GBU was aimed at a military target the Grads at civilians

[Bragi]

132. How do we know it was a Hamas rocket?

That's a serious question. Why do we assume that Hamas controls every militant group in Gaza capable of firing a mortar?

[Pavulon]

136. They claim it. when they killed

two kids with a rocket meant for israel. Hamas runs the area, it is their weapon.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. That is not for lack of trying

They have also stepped up the use of longer range rockets and are hitting Israeli cities

[Idealism]

31. Long range attacks lol

Hows that working out? 4 Israeli's dead in 4 days... yeah that is efficient

[Pavulon]

36. Not for lack of trying.

I guess they would be better served by blowing themselves up on buses and markets. Same difference.

Should we feel sorry for hamas because they are not having great success at their civilian killing tactic.

Maybe they should take those ak's and have a real war, using infantry tactics.

[Idealism]

38. Actually the suicide bombers have nothing to do with Hamas

Maybe oppressing an entire people for 40 plus years can breed some extremists, but Hamas has officially condemned suicide bombers. And, again, Hamas didn't start this latest round. Try again

[Pavulon]

39. The sure did, shot rockets the entire term of the hudna

they used time to try to regroup and then decided to play war. Hamas is sworn to destroy Israel. Guess they are dying doing their job.

standard weak force strong force conflict, just with more drams from the international hangers on.

Should have been a negotiated solution ten years ago.

[Idealism]

41. Suicide bombers and shooting rockets aren't the same thing

But I guess you can't see past that.

The solution should have been done years before that, but Israel is run by the military-industrial complex. They have elections very soon, and the Prime Minister wants to remain in power.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. They were both Hamas sponsored

Many of us read heart rending stories of people with urgent needs unable to leave Gaza due to Israel locking down the checkpoints. That same lock down is widely credited with stopping the suicide bombings.

[Idealism]

44. Credited by the Israeli government

Find out how many Israelis' have died by acts attributed to Hamas since 2000. Even if ALL of them were done by Hamas, it still pales in comparison to the 400 dead in 5 days.

[Pavulon]

48. Guess hamas failed stats then

they wanted a war, they talked up all over every media outlet. Now they have it.

100 percent of those deaths were non combatant. 25% of your number are noncombatant , because hamas AIMS to kill innocents, Israel aims to kill hamas.

[Idealism]

50. But you just said the rocket fire couldnt be aimed?

Oops?

[Pavulon]

55. It cant, hence the two dead kids hamas killed in own goal

while trying to shoot a rocket into israel. Unguided weapon. A suicide bomber would try to get the most death for his act.

Hamas does have tools of war they could aim, they just choose not to. Making them assholes.

[Idealism]

56. And those dropping Bunker Busters on Mosques in Gaza,

those guys are fucking heroes, right? Wrong forum to be promoting war

[Pavulon]

60. You are pimping your SIDE

I have no side. No one is special in this conflict. Simple weak force strong force war. Both sides are behaving as they generally do in these things.

Put weapons in a mosque and it is no longer a mosque. Shouldn't need a bunker buster, waste of money. A 1000lb gbu should do the trick. 500 if you are worried about breaking windows.

Footage I have see shows secondary explosions on the mosque. I guess those cook offs are from all the innocence they stored there.

I promote a resonable settlement. Idiots promote solutions that will never happen.

Arafat missed out when he refused clintons deal and went to war. Downhill since then.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

153. Did you see the secondary explosions on the You Tube video?

There was clearly energetic material stored there.

Also you don't use bunker busters on a mosque. They would over penetrate and really not do much more that put a hole in the roof.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

129. Rockets can be aimed

The difference between rockets and missiles in an independent guidance section that can correct in mid-course or guide itself into a target.

Artillery rockets are not really made for single shots. You launch one at a time, as you zero in on the target and then the rest are launched as fire for effect. Hamas can't do that since they have no spotters or other kinds of real time feedback. Also if they stay that long, the IAF will get them. The result is rockets aimed in generally the right direction buy no way to walk them onto targets. An approach that has no useful military value.

It should also be known that Hamas launched their rockets at civilian targets with no attempt to hit military ones.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. An taken credit for by Hamas

The number are not relevant. Was is not about equal casualties on each side.

The vast majority of the deaths in Gaza are Hamas, something all sides are agreeing on. What percentage of the Hamas inflicted Israeli casualties are military?

[Idealism]

54. When policemen, engineers, and doctors

are considered Hamas, well I guess you got me there...

[Pavulon]

57. If they are firing rockets

or making that possible as support personnel (other than marked medics which hamas has used for cover) they are targets. Money men, playmakers, and guys storing weapons are targets.

[Idealism]

59. Are you kidding me?

Doctors, students, people praying-- all these are terrorists in your mind? Stunning.

[Pavulon]

62. If you make explosives in a university, that fatah targeted as well

and get blown to shit doing that by the people that explosive is meant for you are a fair target. No matter what letters follow your name.

You act like this is the only skirmish in the history of the world and no history parallels this.

[Idealism]

64. According to you every building in Gaza is making warheads

When does your militant ignorance end?

[Pavulon]

67. When you link to me saying that

when does your drama end. I said soldiers and their command and control are targets. Same as every modern war and skirmish.

[Idealism]

68. But Mosques, universities, and common markets...

those are terrorist command centers, huh? Right

[Pavulon]

73. The university fatah attacked during their skirmish? Bomb making facility

legal target and anyone in the bursting radius of a 2000lb bomb forfeits their life for being there. I dont know how you would count death from secondary explosions.

[Idealism]

77. You mean 4 years ago, they MAY have had bombs there

Sounds like enough evidence to me! Level them all!


Wrong.

[Pavulon]

79. Guess they did not kill all the snitches

you know a large part of this data comes from spies. More from dumbshits on cellphones.

You got a counter source, or just an opinion to support your SIDE.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

85. The Arab street has always given a lot of bandwidth to SPIES!!!

Even yesterday Hamas was accusing Fatah of being SPIES!!! for Israel.

The facts are that Israel had a lot of data on where things were and what was happening where under Hamas. It enabled the multi-level strikes against them. Not just people but buildings, comms, material, and weapons. Its not clear how they got it, ELINT from cell phones would be one of many ways.

[Idealism]

88. See post 40

Hamas didn't break this last cease-fire.

Keep telling yourself they did, I could care less, you obviously believe the pro-Israeli media on this sight-unseen.

[Pavulon]

94. Dont give a fuck about either side. Have no skin in the game

it is a simple conflict. Nothing new in history. Simple weak force strong force conflict. Negotiated settlement vs throw your death to the world and see how far pity carried you. Except the world it tired of it, and their friends are broke.

Strong force has been quite restrained.

Time for weak force to negotiate. With words.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

98. Your Post (#40) is not persuasive. Many other sources support that neither side honored it

[Idealism]

103. Israel killed around 10 people back in July in an airstrike

But then said that didn't violate the truce, same as the ticking tunnel raids.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

80. It was two buildings and again its been cited as being used for weapons development

[Idealism]

83. By the Jerusalem post

Highly credible source... that is the neocon mouthpiece of the middle east.

[Pavulon]

87. Post a better one

that is how he game is played.

[Idealism]

92. Heres some crazy terrorist group condeming the attacks

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0812/S00563.htm

Sunday, 28 December 2008, 4:31 am
Press Release: Gush Shalom

Gush Shalom press release, December 27, 2008

The war in Gaza – a vicious folly of a bankrupt government

Bloodshed and suffering on both sides of the border could have been avoided

It is possible to return immediately to the ceasefire, make it stronger and firmer

The war in Gaza, the bloodshed, killing, destruction and suffering on both sides of the border are the vicious folly of a bankrupt government. A government which let itself be dragged by adventurous officers and cheap nationalist demagoguery, dragged into a destructive and unnecessary war which will bring no solution to any problem – neither to the communities of southern Israel under the rain of missiles nor to the terrible poverty and suffering of besieged Gaza. On the day after the war the same problems will remain – with the addition of many bereaved families, wounded people crippled for life, and piles of rubble and destruction.

The escalation towards war could and should have been avoided. It was the State of Israel which broke the truce, in the 'ticking tunnel' raid on the night of the US elections two months ago. Since then the army went on stoking the fires of escalation with calculated raids and killings, whenever the shooting of missiles on Israel decreased.

The cycle of bloodshed could and should be broken. The ceasefire can be restored immediately, and on firmer foundations. It is the right of Israel to demand a complete end to shooting on its territory and citizens – but it must stop all attacks from its side, end completely the siege and starvation of Gaza's million and half inhabitants, and stop interfering with the Palestinians' right to choose their own leaders.

Ehud Barak's declaration that he is stopping the elections campaign in order to concentrate on the Gaza offensive is a joke. The war in Gaza is itself Barak's elections campaign, a cynical attempt to buy votes with the blood and suffering in Netivot and Sderot, Gaza and Beit Hanun. Also so-called peace seekers such as Amos Oz s who give this offensive their support and encouragement could not afterwards shrug off responsibility.

ENDS

Just some wing-nut terrorist Hamas-controlled group right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Shalom

Gush Shalom (Hebrew: גוש שלום, lit. 'The Peace Bloc') is an Israeli left wing peace activism group founded and led by former Knesset Member and journalist, Uri Avnery, in 1993.

Avnery stated that he started Gush Shalom because he was disappointed by other Israeli peace movements such as Peace Now. It has described itself as the "hard core" of the Israeli peace movement

[ProgressiveProfessor]

100. Gush Shalom is hardly cannonical or unbiased

[Idealism]

104. Yeah, lets not listen to any voices of reason

Or any dissent from the Israeli love fest. That would be wrong.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

107. Their viewpoint about peace is well founded, but they are not a fount of facts

[SOS]

89. Are guided missiles fired into ambulances also legitimate?

From the NYT, 1/1/09:

"Dr. Madhoun was in an ambulance responding to an Israeli strike at the Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza. Another missile hit the ambulance. The driver, Muhammad Abu Hasira, died instantly. Dr. Madhoun lingered for a day, dying of his wounds on Wednesday in the intensive care unit of Shifa Hospital, where hundreds of people have been brought since Israel began its heaviest assault on Gaza in three decades.

“He was just doing his work,” said the dentist, who would not give his name. “He’s a doctor, and I can’t understand why Israel would hit an ambulance. They can tell from the cameras it’s an ambulance.”"

[ProgressiveProfessor]

90. Couple of Mosques, two university buildings, and no hospitals reported so far

There was an article in Ynet that quoted the head of Mossad as claiming hospitals were being used by Hamas to hide out. Later, also on Ynet, there was an article quoting a Hospital director in Gaza that it was not true.

[Idealism]

99. Two UN Universities, two Mosques,

and a few ambulances, from what I've read thus far.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

102. UN Universities? You are going to have to get some credible citations for that one

Since the UN does not have universities. The school hit was the Islamic University of Gaza. I am restraining myself from calling it Terror U.

The ambulances are new, I will look into that.

[Idealism]

105. Democracy Now

two days ago. UN-sponsored universities.

[Pavulon]

106. Linky Please?

[Idealism]

111. go to

www.democracynow.org

Good program, daily podcasts and such. Much better world news view than what we get in the states on TV

[ProgressiveProfessor]

110. They need to fact check better

Even the Faculty Union there never said anything about them being UN sponsored.

Even if they were...build bombs in Gaza, expect to get bombed

[Idealism]

114. It is sick that you think students going to a University are somehow bomb makers...

Really it is, I can't sit and argue against your firmly held bias. Have a nice day

[Pavulon]

120. Press has it evacuated days before.

cant have it both ways.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

123. It was openly acknowledged as such...

Gaza lacks weapons companies, which Israel has a plethora of. There really wasn't another place that had the facilities needed to do development and its not like they could go out and buy more equipment. So they did it there. Reasonable and rationale thing to do. It did make those buildings targets and they were indeed destroyed. Welcome to shooting wars.

[SOS]

108. Ynet? (OT)

Please look at this:

A deranged Israeli designer named Apollo Braun created t-shirts which referred to Obama as a "slave" and questioning who would kill Obama's daughter Malia.
Here's a quote from the Ynet coverage of Braun:

"The T-shirts (are) sported by youngsters all throughout New York."

I live in NY and not one "youngster" wore this garbage. Not one.
Do not beleive a word from this site.

Here's the link to their appalling, disgraceful and utterly dishonest coverage of this cretinous "designer":

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3527989,00.html

[ProgressiveProfessor]

122. Ynet I think is online only at this point. It prints a wide variety of artilces

[ProgressiveProfessor]

63. Both sides are agreeing to the basic numbers, you can make up your own if you want to

[Idealism]

65. The professions I just quoted are Hamas personnel

Does that make them terrorists wielding rocket launchers? No.

[Pavulon]

70. Depends on what they do

if they are hamas party members no. If they are storing weapons, making weapons, or running command and control they are fair targets.

[Idealism]

72. Yea, Doctors and students make the best "bomb makers"

[Pavulon]

75. Maybe not the best, but they were making explosives there

and died for participating in a war. Check the date and content, hamas and fatah fought over this facility.

Now it is blown to shit.

LINK:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/may/25/israel

[Idealism]

81. The link had nothing to do with civilians making bombs

But it did have supposedly retaliating Hamas by killing a top official after 3 of their own had been kidnapped and shot... So more Hamas retaliation for acts against them was your point?

[Pavulon]

86. Busy building.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-attacks-hamas-targets-as-gaza-fighting-escalates-continues-in-gaza-449475.html

Point, fair target.

[Idealism]

95. There was nothing about a building in that article...

And can we get something more recent than 2007?

[Pavulon]

43. No, suicide bomber can choose his spot to kill the most non combatants

an unguided rocket is just a death lottery. Neither is AIMING and FIRING a weapon at your enemy.

EDIT:
See the Suicide douchebag. See the guy on the right. That is a rifle with a scope. A real man would use this to kill his enemy.

[Idealism]

47. ...

I guess you think every Gazan is a terrorist, I can't seem to get through to you. Have a good day

[Pavulon]

51. Not every one

the guy that got bombed was. I think they should have taken the clinton deal instead of playing intifada.

Poor choices.

[GoesTo11]

11. Actually, I meant something else

I was looking for the link that said Hamas wanted a truce. This was France wanting a ceasefire, which I had seen. I hadn't heard about Hamas asking the UN Sec council for a truce.

[High Plains]

4. I think Hamas wants to suck Israel into invading.

And engage the IDF on the ground in street-to-street urban fighting. That's better odds than trying to throw rocks at jets.

On edit: And Israel is bullying, bellicose, and brutal enough to fall for it.

[Idealism]

7. I don't think they have much choice as to what goes on

It is out of their hands.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. If that were the plan I would have expected them to have rolled in by now

The IDF took a very different approach against Hamas than they have done anywhere else before. Wondering if they are doing the same thing for the ground forces. Have to wait and see. Apparently they are still massing on the border.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Indeed they have been

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x232634
cited
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/12/30/news/ML-Palestinians-Hamas.php

The spokesman, Mushir Masri, spoke Tuesday after Israeli officials unexpectedly floated the idea of a truce. Israel's security Cabinet is to discuss a proposal tomorrow to suspend Israel's offensive to give Hamas an opening to halt rocket fire. If the truce fails, Israel would launch a ground offensive.

Masri says an end to the fighting is not enough. He says that if Israel halts "the aggression and the blockade, then Hamas will study these suggestions."

=============================
Hamas want a truce but only on its terms. The more they delay, the more likely they will be replaced by the PA.

[LynnTheDem]

15. What point is a truce if the Palestinian people remain blockaded & starving?

The last "truce", Israel killed 6 in Gaza.

And said that didn't violate the truce.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Checkpoints are currently open and iternational aid is going in.

However, Gaza started in a deep hole even before the air strikes

The ceasefire was not honored by either side particularly well. Many rockets were launched during it as well. Hamas was the one that discontinued it.

[Idealism]

34. No Hamas didn't

the IDF bombed tunnels under Gaza last month, tunnels that were the only source of getting imports into the Strip due to the 2 year blockade. Hamas didn't break the truce, and even during the last cease-fire Israel killed a handful of people- yet that didn't somehow discontinue the peace (according to them).

[ProgressiveProfessor]

46. Didn't what?

Break the truce? That is comical. Both sides shredded.

Not continue the cease fire?...that was clearly announced by Hamas

Step up rocket attacks, including longer range ones targeting Israeli cities.


Hamas escalated things to the point where there was clearly going to be an open shooting war. The they got caught with their pants down. The PA will come in and resume control. The shooting from both sides will stop and once again there will be an attempt at peace

[Idealism]

53. See post 40, Hamas didn't break this last peace, not by a long shot

But you purposefully ignore that post and keep believing the Pro-israel love fest media

[ProgressiveProfessor]

58. So your are saying that until then Hamas was not firing any rockets into Israel the entire time

of the so called cease fire? Note that was actually a hudna, the Google page for that is instructive.

There were violations by both sides, the tunnel raid was clearly the largest of them.

[Idealism]

61. The tunnel raid, 10 Gazan's killed by an IDF strike force

Palestinian farmers being booted off their land, attempting to wall Gaza in like the Warsaw Ghetto, turning off electricity to the Strip, turning off the water supply to the West Bank by the Western Aquifer... yeah there is no innocent side here, that much I agree, but I hope you realize that Israel has been worse to these people than Hamas has been to them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

66. Its not from lack or trying or wanting to

Israel does not have as part of its mission statement the elimination of any or all of the Muslim nations. Hamas on the other hand...

[Idealism]

71. The current Israeli government is committed to just that statement

And if you lived in a territory that was year by year growing smaller, with a big bully taking your lunch money, wouldn't you oppose them too?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

76. No its not

It has said that removing Hamas from control in Gaza is a goal. Hamas is not the PA and Gaza is not recognized as a sovereign state.

The air strikes etc are not over Palestinian rights or territory its about stopping rockets that were starting to reach into the heart of Israel. Is surprising how few people get that the longer range rockets are the crux of the matter.

If I lived in Gaza I would want the return of the PA to end the fascist terror regime run by Hamas. I would also want the rockets attacks to stop so my family and I could leave decently and so peace might have a chance.

[Idealism]

78. You think they had peace before Hamas?

Hamas got voted in because the Fatah was so corrupt and weak-kneed. All they care about is getting fair treatment, not being staved to death under military blockade, not being kept in the literal dark because Israel has a bigger army. The day Hamas won the elections, the IDF said it was their mission to annihilate them, and weeks later the blockade was in place. That was just two years ago. And it still goes on to this day.

[Pavulon]

82. After telling clinton to blow oslo out his ass it has been all down hill

looks like arafat missed the boat on that one. So now we are back to weak force strong force conflict. Just like any african conflict, but everyone here thinks they are special. God is on their side and such bullshit.

Not all that complex really.

[Idealism]

84. Arafat wanted to stay in power, he was corrupt as hell

He thought by perpetuating war with support of foreign countries he could retain power, didn't work so well.

[Pavulon]

91. weak force fuckup

smart weak force, short of friends and money would go back to that table. Work on that state, get egypt to sponsor it. Stupid ones motivated by religious nuts die fighting strong force.

Nothing new under the sun.

[fbahrami]

2. Great timing!

s a d

[rhett o rick]

12. Yeah, WW III starts just days before Obama takes office. Who could have seen this coming? nm

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laststeamtrain]

16. Haaretz: IDF recommends major, but short-term, ground offensive in Gaza

IDF recommends major, but short-term, ground offensive in Gaza
By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondents and News Agencies


The Israel Defense Forces recommended a major, but relatively short-term, ground offensive in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, as military preparations continued on the border. The army was given the green light to forge ahead with Operation Cast Lead, which enters its sixth day Thursday.

Detailed briefings have been underway for the past two days at Southern Command, with officers receiving their orders. The General Staff believes that more pressure must be put on Hamas to make it agree to a long-term cease-fire under conditions more favorable to Israel.

The IDF said rocket fire on the south was expected to continue during a ground operation. The army recommends that a diplomatic exit plan be prepared while a cease-fire agreement is formulated.

While defense officials tend to favor a clear agreement with Hamas, even if it is not enshrined in a written document, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni is considering another idea.

She reportedly believes that it might be better to aim for a situation in which there is no clearly set-out agreement, but Israel would make clear beforehand that it would respond forcefully to any firing from Gaza after hostilities ended.

<more>

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051682.html

[LynnTheDem]

17. How 'bout FOOD WATER ELECTRICITY MEDICINE?

I'd say "go fuck yourselves" to any truce where my family remained starving to death or dying from lack of medicines.

Over 50% of the Gaza people are under 17 years old.

Over 50% of all Gaza people suffer from malnutrition.

Killed by bombs, killed by tank fire, killed by gunships...at least it's faster death than by starvation.

A truce with a continued blockade-boot on their necks?

That doesn't seem to work so well.

[iconicgnom]

18. Ain't it cool when you have such superior weapons and tactical position, you can call every shot.

I wouldn't want to be a Palestinian. There's nothing a Palestinian can do but watch the armored bulldozers coming, pushing Palestinians inexortably into the sea.

Imagine being born in a tiny "country" that's in fact a prison, blockaded N,S,E,W by an immensely powerful and virulently racist culture that despises you for what you are. For your claim to the land you and your ancestors lived on. That has no heart. Imagine what that would do to you, as a person.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. War is never a fair fight and never ever cool

But there is lots Gazans can do.

Palestinians in the West Bank are not having these kind of problems, just those in Gaza which was taken over by Hamas. The guys doing the shooting will not talk to Hamas, but will to the PA, the recognized government of the Palestinian people. The PA wants to resume its rightful control of Gaza and stop the shooting.

When Hamas took over Gaza it starting shooting anyone from Fatah and the PA. Christians and Jews were eliminated as well. You know how un Islamic that is, but if you speak up and criticize Hamas, you will join them.

Gaza is indeed boxed in, but one of the sides is controlled by fellow Muslims who used to be responsible for Gaza. They won't open the border until Gaza is no longer in control in Gaza. The guys shooting at you are saying the same thing.

There is a pattern here and the Gazans can do something. Its called throw Hamas out and let the PA resume control of Gaza. The rockets will stop, the bombs will stop, and the checkpoints will open. Seems pretty clear to me.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The abyss]

49. Yes, rather like the Warsaw ghetto

What makes me incredibly angry: this is being performed with U.S. tax dollars!

[bemildred]

20. I'm sort of wondering what a "major, but relatively short-term, ground offensive " looks like,

In a place like Gaza. It seems to me I hear dithering and political hedging. I thought this was all meticulously planned out months ago.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. Curious myself, The IAF used some new tricks, wonder what the ground forces have in mind

They could have rolled in several days ago

[iconicgnom]

27. Right. They can do whatever they want.

It's like a big fat cat with an exhausted and bleeding mouse.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

69. Not entirely true on the ground side

Hezbollah bloodied the IDF after a major bombing campaign. Israel will not want to repeat it.

This time the IAF took its time and built up a proritiezed targets list and got to most of them in the first day. That was not what was done in the past. Have to wonder given that change in doctrine if the ground forces will also have similar changes. Note that those changes could also be horrific.

I am still surprised they have not rolled in hard yet.

[Idealism]

97. When Hezbollah routed IDF forces

it was a half-assed attempt by Israel, honestly. They claimed they sent 30,000 troops- it was more like 3000. Many of them refused to fight, turn and ran when the time came, too. This is different, their is a deep hatred among them for Palestinians.

[Pavulon]

101. What did Hezbollah win?

they did a great job in the press But at the end they retook the golan heights, right?

We killed 300 people a second for 12 hours straight with airplanes that carry the same bomb load as an f15. If they wanted to kill them all they could. They have the inventory of conventional weapons.

Funny they are not. Give Hezbollah a B61 armed fused and ready to fire how long before they popped you think?

[Idealism]

109. What does that have to do with what I posted?

...?

[Pavulon]

116. Rout is how the sinai ended up part of israel

rout means high kill rate or gain in war. Hezbollah got neither.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

125. They won because they survived

Israeli causalities were higher than expected as well. Even the IDF in its after action analysis recognized and corrected problems.

If Hamas (vice lone madman) is still shooting rockets at Israel when this is over, Hamas will have won, even if the death toll is 10,000 to one.

[Pavulon]

127. Pretty low bar

but fits with the weak force strong force conflict. At the end of the day, hamas is still stuck in gaza.

A win for them is if they can force international pressure to halt the attack on them.

If they just bury their dead martyrs it seems a draw to me.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

128. Don't think it is going to go that way

Egypt and most of the other Arab nations have abandoned Hamas. PA wants to resume control. Some Fatah people have emerged and there are fire fights between them and Hamas.

Its not like Lebanon in 2006, IAF used new and very effective tactics. While I am for the removal of Hamas (I really don;t like fascists), its way to hard to call at this time.

[iconicgnom]

130. oh gag me! Kids in S. Lebanon are still stumbling over cluster bomblets.

It's a turkey shoot from the sky, and any pretense at some king of parity is obscene.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

131. It was clearly a pyrrhic victory, but Hezbollah did beat the Israelis, not my pushing them out

but by wearing them down until Israel withdrew.

That there are still cluster munition killing people may be the reason they have not been used in Gaza.

There is no parity in war, and this kind of war is heavily asymmetric, Hamas knew that. They knew that they were putting their civilians at risk. They did not care. What they did not expect is the way it was going to go down and how badly Hamas was going to be hurt.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

141. When they hit 300 a second your drama works

that is what we got burning tokyo, 8 hours of 300 deaths a second. 1945. So spare the drama. They have that same capability. Not nuclear, just fire bombs. Those fit hard points of F aircraft.

Except they don't use them, they dont kill in mass blindly. They dont stack bodies.

This whole thing is made far more complex that it really is. It can be negotiated it is a tiring topic that is a lifestyle for far to many.

[iconicgnom]

145. I can't reply to the content without breaking DU rules, so go for it, Pavulon. n/t

[Pavulon]

146. Pretty simple content, negotiate a solution

the steps required by either side of this conflict to "win" are not acceptable. Comparisons to nazis, SA, or any other "evil" is drama and fixes nothing.

Land war, negotiate a end and get on with it.

BTW did you know Vietnam makes great shirts and the hilton takes AMEX? Time marches on.

[iconicgnom]

148. bullshit.

[Pavulon]

150. Quite the rebuttal.(nt)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

126. They were not routed in anybodies mind except Nasals

[Odin2005]

28. I know I'll be flammed for saying this, but...

Given what happen to Jews just a few generations ago why should anyone be surprised they are being so vicious towards and organization who's mission statement is wiping Israel off the face of the Earth?

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

45. What you got here is the oppressed becoming the oppressor

and this bullshit about using the horrors of the Holocaust as justification for every horror Israel has unleashed on the Palestinians has worn thin.

[The abyss]

74. You called it! Thank you!

The U.S. saw to it that a lot of people got the short drop after Nuremberg. Right, Wrong or Indifferent.

The important thing is those events occurred in the middle of the last century. Let us move on and deal with the issues of today.

[Pavulon]

113. Seems like the palestinian intifada has worn thin on the world

this is a right simple thing. weak force strong force war. no different than those fought in sub Saharan africa. Except all the crusaders get in the middle and fuck it all up. Both sides are special.

Arafat told clinton to blow oslo out his ass, and went to war. Seems that was a bad call.

Time for weak force to hit the bargaining table. Or they can hit the media and tell the world how ready they are to die for their cause. Watch the worlds response. you are seeing it right now.

[Bragi]

133. Not the world, just the U.S /NT

[Pavulon]

137. EU and Arab governments

"the street" is of course wound up but the governments are doing noting.

[iconicgnom]

135. Who fired first, who fired most, is a red herring. The problem is Zionism.

The problem is institutional racism. This situation w.r.t. Israel is little different than that with apartheid SA. The whole time of apartheid SA there were ridiculous debates/justifications (and that's all they are, cheapo attempts at justifying evil), justification citing how nasty the ANC attacks were, or how nasty the SA counter-attacks were -- and all these justifications were red herrings because the cause wasn't the overt violence. The overt violence was just the effect. The cause was the institutional racist apartheid policy/governing power which, so long as it existed, produced that effect. When there were periods of relative peace, the problem was still there, festering deeper, growing deeper roots. It was only when SA woke up and repudiated the apartheid ideology that the problem was properly addressed and there began to be hope for a better future. Sure, inter-racial violence continued and continues, just like inter-religious or inter-etc. violence always continues, to some degree. But not with the same irrationally hopeless intensity as when the cause is rooted in and justified by a travesty of law that's given constitutional force.

Until people focus on ridding the world of the problem, Zionism and other racist ideologies, these wars will continue and escalate, and I'm sorry if it bothers some people when I say it, but it's true, the direction these wars/conflicts go in is always in one inevitable direction and it isn't pretty.

[Pavulon]

138. Example of Drama,

this is a conflict like that in DPRC and Angola before it. You have ethnic (religious here) sides squabbling over land.

The sides here have a history of being pawns in the cold war too. They just have not realized they dont matter any more. They are not special, they are not chosen and they are not martyrs. They are bleeding bodies that need to settle their shit.

Arafat refused oslo and it has been all down hill.

There will be no peace from the gun. So unless you propose a war of extermination, which has failed three times, the only solution is at the negotiating table.

The whole thing needs less agents and more brokers.

[iconicgnom]

140. Zionism isn't "drama", nor are the wars intended to establish Zionism.

[Pavulon]

142. And the wars to wipe out a state with a un mandate

0 and 3, not going to happen. Time for a settled solution.

[iconicgnom]

143. Zionism is wrong. n/t

[Pavulon]

144. Cant kill an ism.

Unless you are really ready to get your hands bloody. Short of killing them all a negotiation will be required.

[iconicgnom]

147. One most certainly can put an end to a racist constitution.

And when people of good will are acting, it can even be done peacefully, tho' that's a rarity.

Otherwise, what you imply by "kill them all" is just too odious for me to give a fitting answer in this forum.

[Pavulon]

149. Never advocated that. How are you going to undo israel

just ask real nice? Two state solution, negotiated agreement. No other solution exists that does not include lots of dead people.

[iconicgnom]

151. Again: Zionism is wrong.

And how come you haven't yet noticed all the dead people?

I've read quite a few of your posts in other sub-threads. I don't see this going anywhere. You seem to be just fine with Zionism and a Zionist state, and the consequences of it. When you say "negotiate" you don't really mean it. You mean "bomb them to zero, then dictate terms".

Now I'll put you on ignore.

[Pavulon]

152. No I mean Arafat should have taken the offer

now they have a weaker position to negotiate from. If I meant bomb them to zero I would stay that.

You got any suggestions, maybe an answer to that question?

You guys never do.

[unkachuck]

139. "...rapidly moving forward with preparations for a possible ground offensive..."

....fantastic....now I get to watch Ann Frank and Holocaust on PBS again!