Cuba's Castro Ridicules Gaffe-Prone Bush

[kskiska]

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuban leader Fidel Castro resorted to humor on Saturday to defend himself from U.S. hostility, ridiculing President Bush for his gaffes.

"Bush could not debate a Cuban ninth grader, who knows more than he does," Castro said in a speech closing an international conference of economists hosted by his communist government.

Castro had his audience of 1,400 economists in stitches when he read out some of Bush's more unfortunate statements.

Among other gaffes, Castro quoted Bush as saying: "I will have a foreign-handed foreign policy;" "I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family;" "More and more of our imports come from overseas;" and "The most important job is not to be governor, or first lady in my case."

Looking cheerful and dressed in a dark gray business suit with a salmon-colored tie instead of this trademark uniform, Castro laid to rest recent rumors that he may have died by delivering a four-hour 20-minute speech in which he railed against White House efforts to get rid of him.

more…
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=JYX24ENHID4ROCRBAEZSFFA?type=ourWorldNews&storyID=4359000

Reuters page, if link doesn't work:
http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml?type=worldNews

[catzies]

1. Link doesn't work for me.

I'm bummed!

[boxster]

2. Hey, when Castro is making fun of you, you know you're an idiot!

Hehe.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

9. Just FYI: Castro has outlived...

...all four presidents that tried to have him whacked back in the late 1950s through the early 1970s. They are Ike, JFK, LBJ, and Nixon. It's also my understanding that Reagan and Poppy also tried to have him killed. I'm not sure what Ford, Carter, and Clinton thought on that particular issue. I think Junior probably reinstated the hit orders.

Outlasting the terms of nine presidents (45 years, 1959-present), most of whom tried to have him killed, and coming pretty close to outlasting Junior's coup tells me that Castro is pretty far from being an idiot.

[boxster]

14. No, no.

Sorry, I didn't mean that the way it sounds.

I meant that if Castro feels strongly enough that Bush is an idiot to spend time making fun of him publicly, Bush must *really* be a idiot.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. LOL! Okay...NOW I get it! Thanks!

[boxster]

40. Yeah, sorry. My fault.

I didn't word it very well.

It's pretty interesting when a leader who our government has ridiculed for decades more effectively ridicules Bush!

[Lostmessage]

67. Thank You

LOL

[papau]

3. (link)Evil Reuters - you won't see AP or UPI reprinting those Bush gaffes!

But I do enjoy them - perhaps just as much as Castro enjoys them!

:-)

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4359190

[kskiska]

6. Thanks for the new link

Couldn't get the link to work.
:-)

[Osolomia]

42. AP: "the audience roared"

Castro: U.S. Embargo Hasn't Broken Cuba
Castro Says U.S. Embargo Hasn't Broken Cuba, Touts Nation's Health Care, Education Programs
The Associated Press

HAVANA Feb. 14 — America's economy hangs by a thread while Cuba after four decades under a U.S. economic blockade continues to offer free health care and boasts an infant mortality rate lower than its northern neighbor, President Fidel Castro asserted early Saturday.

In a 4 1/2-hour speech to economists, Castro also took shots at President Bush, saying he "couldn't debate a Cuban 9th-grader." He recited for a half-hour from "Dos Cabalgan Juntos (Two Men Riding Together)," a book of purported malapropisms by Bush and Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, bent over with laughter as the audience roared.

Castro also challenged Bush to be clear about how the United States plans to realize a transition to democracy in Cuba. He wondered aloud again if it involved a plan to kill him.

More...
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040214_943.html

Any wonder why Bush doesn't dare let Castro speak at international conferences that he's speaking to? Guess who gets the standing ovations and who gets jeered. Imagine a debate between the two, Dubya wouldn't last one look into Fidel's eyes methinks.

[Judi Lynn]

43. Excellent article, it's just great!

That man is enormously bright. A lot of other people his age have become completely childish by then, their more negative aspects taking over after years of indulging them.

From the article:

(snip)
Castro noted that many of the more than 1,000 attending economists from 50 countries including some from the United States had sharply criticized globalization and the "neoliberal" economic policies of industrialized nations.

He lauded U.S. Nobel Prize-winning economist Daniel L. McFadden's "keen observations" among them that the United States, with a fiscal deficit of more than $520 billion, is managing its economy like a "banana republic."
(snip)

[Osolomia]

46. 1,000 economists from 50 countries in "communist" Cuba!

The "Castro apologists" picture gallery is bursting at the seams as it is!

[Osolomia]

45. What if this "October Surprise" were to occur?

January 27, 2004
Iran and Castro: October surprises
By Constantine C. Menges
Washington Times

.... Mr. Castro also wants to see Bush defeated because his determination to help democratic allies could threaten the emerging pro-Castro axis in Latin America. Both dictatorships have plans that could result in visible and sharp foreign policy setbacks that might cost President Bush the 2004 election.

... In the Americas, Mr. Castro has been using a deceptive political strategy and long-established relations with radical leaders who are not formally communist to establish a new axis with governments friendly to him. These now include 231 million people ruled by Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, Lula da Silva in Brazil, Lucio Gutierrez in Ecuador and the shadow power of Evo Morales and Felipe Quispe in Bolivia, who recently removed the elected president.

... In June 2004, the OAS will meet in Ecuador to choose a new secretary general. Right now, it is very likely the candidate favored by Mr. Castro and his friends — Mr. Chavez, Mr. da Silva, Mr. Gutierrez— will be selected.

It is also because the pro-Castro axis will back a "respectable" candidate who will have committed in advance or who will be seen as persuadable on the next step — the readmission of the Castro regime to the OAS. This would likely occur in October 2004 perhaps with Mr. Castro holding a press conference in Washington D.C. and then walking in triumph past the White House to the OAS to be greeted by thunderous applause.

More...
http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20040126-083602-5200r.htm

[Mika]

49. That would be one of the best surprises ever!

I dunno what they're smokin at the Hudson institute. :crazy:

The good stuff. :party:

[Osolomia]

50. Castro's a perfect ally to defeat Bush with

pity the "Democratic" party doesn't see fit to capitalize on this golden opportunity handed to them on a silver platter. Wonder why.

[Judi Lynn]

51. Good ol' Constatine C. Menges

He's a trooper. Served as one of them there furrin policy experts to Ronald Reagan!


Menges, as a younger, more handsome Menges

Member of the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research, along with Richard Perle. and cohorts.

~~~~ link ~~~~

Member of the Center for Security Policy
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/index.jsp?section=static&page=Q103appeal

which is partially funded by Mellon-Scaife foundations.
http://www.mediatransparency.org/search_results/info_on_any_recipient.php?recipientID=489

Same guys who funded impeachment efforts against Bill Clinton.

[Osolomia]

52. Gotta wonder what "political counter strategies" Menges has in mind

to prevent this "negative October surprise" considering his record:

The Bush Regency in Action

"October 20, 1983:"

The U.S. invasion of the Caribbean island-nation of Grenada was decided
upon in a secret meeting under the leadership of George Bush. National
Security Council operative Constantine Menges, a stalwart participant in
these events, described the action for posterity: "My job that afternoon
was to write the background memorandum that would be used by the vice
president, who in his role as 'crisis manager' would chair this first NSC
meeting on the issue....

"Shortly before 6:00 p.m., the participants began to arrive: Vice President
Bush, Weinberger,
Meese, J C S Chairman General Vessey, acting CIA
Director McMahon, Eagleburger, ... North and
myself.

"President Reagan was travelling, as were Bill Casey and
Jeane Kirkpatrick....

"Vice President Bush sat in the President's chair."

Menges continued: "The objective, right from the beginning, was to plan a
rescue that would guarantee
quick success, but with a minimum of casualties....

"Secrecy was imperative.... As part of this plan, there would be no change
in the schedule of the top man. President Reagan ... would travel to
Augusta, Georgia, for a golf weekend. Secretary of State Shultz would go
too...."

Work now proceeded on detailed action plans, under the guidance of the vice
president's Special Situation Group.

"Late Friday afternoon .. the CPPG ... in room 208.... Now
the tone of our discussions had shifted from whether we would act to how
this could be accomplished....

More...
http://www.padrak.com/alt/BUSHBOOK_7.html

[Judi Lynn]

54. Unbelievable piece! Please, someone shoot me. Put me outta my misery.

(snip) "November 3, 1983:"

Bush aide Donald Gregg met with Felix Rodriguez to discuss "the general
situation in Central America." / Note #1 / Note #2
(snip)

Discussing the "general situation" in Central America with a Cuban "exile" terrorist?

These guys never cease to amaze.

That Grenada exercise was a real masterpiece, wasn't it? Good lord.

So Menges was working with the "crisis manager," George H.W. _Bush. This is pathetic.

[Mika]

58. Man oh man. What a batch of bad apples

Jeezuz H Keerist, the axis of evil, Prescott, GHW, GW Bush.

Always remember,

Cuba = Bad
America = Good

---

Only ONE candidate for US president
openly states that he would end the
unjust policy of sanctions and embargoes
against Cuba AND Americans.

That candidate is Dennis Kucinich.

-The Democratic Presidential Candidates on Cuba-
http://www.lawg.org/pages/new%20pages/Misc/prez-candidates1.htm

[54anickel]

4. Should make the repugs proud to think that their leader can provide

such a bounty of material to make ANYONE a sensational stand-up comedian.

[FlaGranny]

5. I'm sure that most every

other country's leader feels the same way about b*. They just don't feel free to say so out loud, like Castro does. Castro has no real need to stay on b*'s "good" side.

[JailForBush]

7. With enemies like Castro, who needs friends? N/T

[mobuto]

8. One unelected dictator to another?

Pot calling kettle, pot calling kettle.

Now its absolutely true that Bush cannot debate a 9th grader. But unlike Castro, he'll have to debate his political opponent if he wants to get reelected. Now he'll get his ass kicked, but at least he has an opposition to debate.

[Osolomia]

10. Playing to the exiles hurts dissidents' cause

By Wayne S. Smith
February 14 2004

Over the past two and a half years, the Bush administration has adopted an increasingly hostile, threatening attitude toward Cuba, even as a strong majority in the Congress has moved in the opposite direction, to lift travel controls and ease other sanctions against Cuba.

... The administration, however, is totally opposed. Over the past few months, it has cracked down on the travel of American citizens to Cuba, denied visas to more and more Cubans -- including musicians going up for the Grammy awards in Los Angeles -- and closed off channels for dialogue, even in early January suspending the twice-yearly migration talks.

Talks, you see, are inconsistent with a policy aimed at regime change, and that is now the administration's leitmotiv regarding Cuba. As Assistant Secretary of State Roger Noriega put it to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Oct. 2 of last year: "The president is determined to see the end of the Castro regime and the dismantling of the apparatus that has kept him in office for so long."

... In trips to Cuba in December and January, I met, as I always do, with leading dissidents, including Vladimiro Roca and Oswaldo Payá, all of whom expressed deep misgivings about the Bush administration's approach.

Both Roca and Payá specifically questioned the validity of a commission designed to plan a transition in Cuba. "That is up to the Cuban people," Roca said, "not the United States." And both said they would accept no assistance whatever from the United States. As Payá put it, "most of that money will stay in Miami, but the very fact that it is on the books encourages the Cuban government to accuse us, unfairly, of receiving assistance from a foreign power. U.S. talk of assistance, in short, doesn't help us; it harms us."

Further, while the dissidents have a role to play in pushing for greater respect for civil rights, they do not have and are not likely to have the strength or following even to think of bringing down the government. Nor, as most, including the dissidents themselves, see it, is that their role.

More...
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-13forum13feb14,0,2614632.story?coll=sfla-news-opinion

Wayne S. Smith, an adjunct professor at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and a senior fellow at the Center for International Policy in Washington, D.C., was chief of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana from 1979 until 1982.

[mobuto]

12. The irony is that Bush and Castro have the same interests

to maintain the status quo.

If relations with Cuba were ever normalized, Castro would lose his grip on power and the Republican Party would lose its grip on the Miami lobby.

Castro's only source of power is the fact that he controls the distribution of scarce resources. Allow Cuba to be flooded with resources by eliminating the embargo and travel restrictions and suddenly Strong Man No. 1 is irrelevent -- and Cubans don't have to worry about not having food if they oppose their government.

[Osolomia]

13. Dream on!

The evidence suggests quite the opposite to maintaining the status quo whether you like it or not, here's a recent example:

Castro Signs Baseballs, Talks U.S. Ties
Associated Press
February 9, 2004

HAVANA -- President Fidel Castro signed baseballs, handed out cigars and flower bouquets and discussed increased ties with the United States in a meeting Monday with two Republican legislators who want to lift a ban on U.S. travel to Cuba.

Sen. Larry Craig and U.S. Rep. Butch Otter, both of Idaho, "are pushing very hard to lift the travel restrictions," said Craig spokesman Mike Tracy, who attended the encounter with Castro at the Palace of the Revolution. The 22 other members of the trade and cultural delegation were also present, Tracy said.

... Craig told reporters Saturday he thought the travel ban would be lifted by next year. He spoke after Idaho delegation members signed trade and cultural agreements with the Cuban government in front of Ernest Hemingway's former estate outside Havana.

Castro "didn't touch on the most difficult of the issues -- the strained relationship with the U.S. -- but he did talk about wanting to work closer with the U.S. and to have more trade with the U.S.," Tracy said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.

... Castro accepted three bottles of red, white, and blush wines and a color photo book on Idaho from the delegation, whose meeting with the president capped a four-day visit to the island.

In exchange, the communist leader gave his guests boxes of Cuba's famous cigars and flower bouquets, and signed baseballs and photographs of himself taken with delegation members.

More...
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-castros-guests,0,2543838.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines

[mobuto]

15. Castro thinks he can ration freedom;

he can't.

When the embargo falls, so will he.

[Osolomia]

18. Then why do Americans keep it?

Sorry, I don't buy pretzel logic.

[mobuto]

19. Why?

Because if Castro falls, the Miami Lobby will no longer contribute money and votes to politicians.

[Osolomia]

20. So? Why can't US politicians live without the "exiles" money?

There's evidently plenty of other lobby groups out there with plenty of campaign contribution money as recent bipartisan majority votes in Congress on this issue go to show.

snip/...

Since the blockade and travel ban are the only weapons the U.S. world cop has at its disposal, they will stay in place. Herein, Washington acts out of weakness measured by Cuba’s unity, strength, and world-wide support, attested to by the record UN General Assembly vote of 179 to 3 to condemn the embargo.

No administration is about to reward the Cuban people for 45 years of defying U.S. efforts to smother the revolution. So doing would send a message to a Latin America on the verge of massive social explosions that effectively organized resistance is possible, the leading example of which can be found in the history and achievements of the Cuban revolution.

... The September decisions announced by Howard Dean and John Kerry—two leading liberal Democratic presidential aspirants—altering their opposition to the embargo against Cuba to support of the blockade in all of its manifestations, were signals that the rulers of the United States are hardly disposed to ease, let alone lift, the most stringent U.S. sanctions regime ever.

... Growing popular curiosity about Cuba and rising demand to visit it—especially among young people—are now on a collision course with widely rejected government restrictions, onerous penalties, and star-chamber enforcement mechanisms.

This confrontation will provide new opportunities to win support for the right to travel to Cuba, as part of broader battles to defend the Bill of Rights, a main target of a war that is as bipartisan at home as it is abroad. Cuba is not far from the front lines of either engagement.

More...
http://www.change-links.org/travelban.htm

[mobuto]

22. They can but why should they?

You expect Bush to turn away funding and votes? That's likely...

There's evidently plenty of other lobby groups out there with plenty of campaign contribution money as recent bipartisan majority votes in Congress on this issue go to show.

Sure there are other interests out there, and that's why the GOP's seen a revolt on Cuba from farm-state Republicans. But Florida remains the crucial battleground state, unlike Nebraska. And Rove/Bush aren't going to turn their backs on support there.

[Osolomia]

24. Because they're from organizations with known links to terrorism

How many extremist right wing minority of Cuban-American votes are you talking about? And why are the Democratic candidates pandering to this special interest group too despite the will of the majority across the country?

[mobuto]

28. I don't understand

What's your point?

I'm not endorsing Bush's position, I'm saying its grounded in political reality.

And why are the Democratic candidates pandering to this special interest group too despite the will of the majority across the country?

For two reasons.

1. They're afraid of being accused of being soft on a ruthless dictator. There is very little to be gained politically by attacking the embargo - it might win some farmers' votes in Nebrasks, but Nebraska won't go Democratic anyway. So why bother?

2. Democrats need to win Florida. You don't win Florida by pissing off a large voting constituency there.

[Osolomia]

33. What "large voting constituency" in Florida are you talking about?

The MAJORITY of Cuban-American "exiles" want the trade and travel ban lifted NOW!!!!!!

How do Dems expect to win by defying the MAJORITY in Florida and across the country?

Editorials on U.S.-Cuba Policy 2001-2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/editorials.htm

Senate Vote to End Travel Ban October 23, 2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/senate-votes.htm

House Vote to End Travel Ban September 10, 2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/vote-counts-flake.htm

Poll of Cuban-Americans v. non-Cuban-Americans (in Dade County) on various policies:
http://www.fiu.edu/orgs/ipor/cuba2000/3samples.htm

A recent Miami Herald poll on Cuba:
http://www.miami.com/multimedia/miami/news/archive/cubanpoll.pdf

Various polls concerning ending the embargo and establishing diplomatic ties: http://www.pollingreport.com/cuba.htm

[mobuto]

34. And those polls

are of persons who are unlikely to list Cuba as their most important issue, and who are unlikely to change their vote because of a candidate's position on the issue.

Sorry, this is a rational position. You can think its wrong, but its justified politically.

[Osolomia]

37. There is nothing whatsoever rational or politically justified

in trying to economically cripple the people of Cuba, shame on any "Democrat" who supports this bullshit for a second longer.

[mobuto]

38. Uh huh

Again, I'm not speaking from a moral or public-policy perspective, simply from a political one. And it will do national Democrats no good politically to campaign against the embargo and travel ban. What they do after getting elected to office is another issue, and one we're not discussing.

[Osolomia]

39. Why not? Vote first, ask questions later is the "Democratic Way" eh?

Sorry, I'm not buying that bullshit. Voters should know what they're voting for BEFORE they vote, there is a choice and Cuba is an excellent litmus test:

Candidates on the issues: Cuba
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=338191#340059

[Zhade]

41. AMEN.

Reminds me of those who wanted to continue sanctions against Iraq - never mind the 500,000+ dead Iraqi children...

[Osolomia]

64. Wrong way on Cuba clear from Idaho

02/15/04

Rep. Butch Otter, R-Idaho, learned something about Cuba even before traveling there this month.

He found out why it was so hard for Americans to go to the island.

"I always thought it was the Cubans telling us we couldn't go," the congressman said in a phone interview Friday. It turned out the problem is the U.S. government.

"What they're telling us is we've picked one country in the world where you can't go, and that's Cuba. I could have gone to Baghdad the day before we started bombing. I could go to North Korea tomorrow.

"That's the only place in the world where I as a free citizen can't go."

Otter greatly dislikes being told that as a free citizen he can't do something, which gets him into arguments with both the Environmental Protection Agency and Attorney General John Ashcroft's Justice Department. So he and the equally conservative Idaho Sen. Larry Craig went to Cuba and decided travel is just one part of U.S. Cuban policy that has to change.

More...
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/david_sarasohn/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1076764036318780.xml

[Judi Lynn]

65. Now this tells you something STRANGE has been going on

when our own Congresscritter actually used to believe, until recently, that it's OUR government keeping us out of Cuba. Oh, my gosh.


Dum da dum dumb

SURE, the gubmint is just fine with our total ignorance on the matter. It makes it so much easier when we're all clueless, living in the dark, completely unaware of their machinations.

If we don't know we are the ones who can't leave our own country and go to Cuba, we can't complain to our Senators and Representatives, and pressure them into getting us a VETO PROOF MAJORITY this year, for sure, when the travel ban comes up again in Congress.


Babaloo!

[Osolomia]

68. Shows how many Americans are brainwashed without realizing it

About the only thing I knew about Cuba when I first visited over 10 years ago was that Americans are not free to go. According to many frank accounts that’s one of the things that attracts millions of international visitors to the island each year. I never would have believed then that Americans would still be travel banned more than a decade later out of their own ignorance and apathy and still be so prone to swallowing US government propaganda hook line and sinker no questions asked.

Otter is one of 53 Republicans who voted FOR your freedom to travel in a 227 to 188 House vote on 9 September 2003 (for the 4th year in a row) in which 22 Democrats voted AGAINST your freedom to travel. Kucinich and Gephardt were not present due to the candidates debate that night. Couldn’t they have voted by proxy?

Craig is one of the 18 Republican Senators who voted FOR your freedom to travel in a 59 to 36 Senate vote on 23 October 2003 in which 6 Democratic Senators voted AGAINST your freedom to travel including Lieberman and Graham. Kerry and Edwards were not present for the historical debate or vote.

If Republicans in Idaho and 38 other farm states can figure this one out then why can’t progressive Democrats and their presidential candidates do so?

[Osolomia]

69. How long has this been going on?

Gap inside out
Founder tells how it was in 724-page tome
San Francisco Chronicle
Sunday, February 15, 2004

Donald Fisher, the remarkably private founder and chairman of San Francisco's Gap Inc., has produced a 724-page autobiography charting the growth of the mega-chain and his own transition from UC Berkeley business student and fraternity member to family man, Levi's jeans salesman and eventually billionaire executive.

…. Fisher enthusiastically describes crossing paths with Fidel Castro on a 1995 trip arranged by Time magazine, which shuttled Fortune 500 CEOs and ex- CEOs around the world as one-time correspondents.

"The Cuban leader rambled on about better cooperation between Cuba and the U.S., and the incredible business opportunities waiting for us, and the help they needed from us to mutually grow our economies," Fisher writes. "After lunch, Chuck Schwab and I presented him with a San Francisco Giants jacket and an autographed baseball by Willie Mays."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/15/BUGEN50OL91.DTL&type=business

[Mika]

48. The US govt rations our freedoms

Our trade and travel rights are rationed by our own U.S. of A. government.

Who are we to talk?

[0007]

11. Hang in there, Castro baby!

"Bush could not debate a Cuban ninth grader, who knows more than he does,"

The only debate junior could win, would be with a mannequin...and I have my doubts about that

[Osolomia]

16. "Castro had his audience of 1,400 economists in stitches when

he read out some of Bush's more unfortunate statements" at "an international conference of economists hosted by his communist government."

Sounds like quite the scene and a helluva lot more fun than drudge sludge!

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[0007]

23. Castro is great because he got rid of the dictator Fulgencio Batista

Which was ten times worse. junior has probably been responsible for killing a hell of a lot more people than Castro.

Read Castro's 911 speech. (google it yourself)

[papau]

26. Batista was a pimp protected by right wing GOP working w/ mob

When United Services Ins purchased the building at 1701 Penn, DC for the business headquarters for Ike's Undersec of Commerce General Olmstead, the mob handled the under the building garage and garage rental - and indeed part of the payment for the land went to the mob.!

Amazing how close some in the GOP were with the mob back in the late 50's early 60's.

Of course that fact might make one think that Oliver Stone's JFK may have had more than one kernel of truth - and we know single bullet, no CIA, NO MOB, no Pentagon types involved is real truth! (and indeed I do not know differently - I only know that Olmstead had a working relationship with folks in all 3 professions - and was a good friend of Ike and Reagan).

[mobuto]

29. Castro replaced a dictatorship with dictatorship

Just like the Ayatollah, who brought freedom to the Iranian people after years of oppression under the Shah, or like Lenin, who brought happiness to Russia after Czarist oppression?

Come on. Battista was bad too. But its Castro's record in the 44 years he's held power that matter.

[0007]

30. Castro did more for the Cuban than the crime cabal

In my book Castro is a real countryman.

[mobuto]

32. And the Ayatollah brought democracy to Iran...

Battista was a thug. Castro's replaced all of his predecessor's injustices with a slate of his own.

Progress!

[0007]

35. Obviously your ignorant of the differences between the two men

Give credit where it is due, Sir.

[mobuto]

36. There are many differences between the two

Castro's repression is totally different than Battista's.

Progress!

[Mika]

47. Wrong! The Cuban people kicked dictatorship out in 1959

Americans don't know this. Don't seem to be interested in facts, on the ground. Don't seem to be too interested in finding out. Seem to be satified being travel banned and ignorant.


Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro, Cuba's greatest revolutionary war hero, has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html#Democracy

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Osolomia]

62. The US president is not elected by the people either

It doesn't matter how you vote in November, the Electoral College elects the president and they do not have to pick the candidate with the majority of the popular vote. Canadians don't directly elect their Prime Minister either, it's based on which party wins the most seats which again doesn't necessarily reflect the popular vote.

Cuba has a 3 stage electoral process. Candidates are nominated and elected to the Municipal Assembly, delegates elected to the Municipal Assembly are nominated for the National Assembly and a second stage of elections is held. The elected members of the National Assembly elect a cabinet which in turn elects a leader.

You can spew your "evil dictatorship" crap all you want, fact of the matter is you haven't a shred of evidence to back it up, ever. If it wasn't for Bush deliberately provoking a crackdown on US government financed "dissidents" in Cuba last year what "human rights" abuse would hypocritical "Democrats" have to whine about?

[mobuto]

70. No but the elect the canddiate

who receives a majority of the vote in each state - the President is directly accountable to the people.

If the electoral college ever voted without regard to popular election, which they could even though in most cases they would be violating state law, then your parallel might be apt.

Cuba has a 3 stage electoral process.

The purpose of which is to create a wall of separation between Mr. Castro and popular accountability. What's he scared of?

[Mika]

75. But, but... how is the pop vote loser winning the seat accountable?

The winner-take-all electoral systems (like Florida's) in the US selection of its head of state directly disenfranchises the minority of of the electorate even if that minority is 49.999% (especially in the more populous states). That is how Al Gore got the majority of the popular vote but lost the elector count due to the US's electoral system disenfranchising the minority of voters because of a non proportional elector selection system.

How can the POTUS be accountable to all of the people when the winner-take-all electoral system negates the votes of the minority?

There are many types of democracy. No one standard. Especially regarding the selection of head of state. That is why the rest of the world recognizes Cuba's parliamentary system and has normal relations with the elected government of Cuba.


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

[mobuto]

77. Better to disenfranchise a minority

than to disenfranchise everybody, as in Cuba.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mobuto]

78. Are you accusing me of being a "right-wignut?

The very idea that anyone who does things differently from the way you do, or the way you want them to, deserves to be eliminated is so sick, and so stupid it's simply laughable.

You really think that's the issue? Way to carictuture those who think Fidel Castro's dictatorship is something less than paradise-on-earth.

[Judi Lynn]

79. The anti-embargo people who post at D.U. have NEVER claimed Cuba

as a wonderland. Not once, of which you're aware.

Don't fall into the rut we've all seen for years: angling for a way to call anti-embargo posters "Castro's Useful Idiots," or imply they are "commie sympathizers," or "commies."

No one here has EVER suggested Cuba is a heaven on earth, and you're well aware of that.

All efforts have been made to inform others of the actual situation our politicians have created, along with our CIA, of over 40 years of relentless pressure on Cuba, and over 4 decades of terrorism by the CIA and assorted paramilitary groups in Florida which continue to make raids to bomb, murder, maim, and terrorize Cuban citizens.

We are interested in pointing out the pathetic double standard in easing restraints on travel to Cuba for the Cuban "exiles" while choking almost every possible opportunity for exchange between OTHER Americans and Cubans.

We also point out the sheer duplicity in pointing at Cuba, claiming they do not travel outside the island, while people in Florida know completely well from knowing their relatives, that Cuban citizens come to the U.S. as tourists regularly, going all over the country.

We are not alone, if we point out the unbelievable record of achievement under ungodly pressure when Cuba has reached a level of literacy and physical well-being through their universal medical treatment:

(snip) The Guardian August 15, 2001

Cuba: "A great job on education and health"


The compliment comes from no less than the president of the World Bank
Jim Wolfensohn, who said he was not embarrassed to acknowledge it. He was
answering questions at a press conference for the World Bank's Development
Committee in Washington on April 30.

Referring to the statistics in the World Bank's "World Economic Outlook", a
journalist asked of Wolfensohn: "One thing that struck me was that out of
all of the countries, there was one particular country that shone in all
indicators: education, health, social spending, and that country happens to
be Cuba, and it's the only country that does not take advice from the World
Bank and IMF...

"Do you stand by those statistics, and if so, what is the reason for Cuba
being so outstanding?"

Mr Wolfensohn responded: "Well, we don't cook the statistics, and we put
them out so that you can read them. I think Cuba has done — and everybody
would acknowledge — a great job on education and health. And if you judge
the country by education and health, they've done a terrific job.

"So I have no hesitation in acknowledging that they've done a good job, and
it doesn't embarrass me to do it. It wasn't with our advice, but it wasn't
without our advice either. I mean, we just have nothing to with them in the
present sense, and they should be congratulated on what they've done." (snip)

http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve4/1058cuba.html

Keep up the good work.

[mobuto]

80. Who's pro-embargo?

I haven't seen any pro-embargo posters. Where are they?

Or do you not believe it is possible to be both anti-embargo and anti-Castro?

[SpiralHawk]

17. I've got you under my skin

So deep in my heart, you're nearly a part of me...

Smirky has notoriously thin skin. He will not like this. One bit.

Hey, he's already smarting big time from having lost his image of honesty and courage. It hurts to be seen for who you are, when you have been living a lie.

And now, adding insult to injury. Why, it's just too much...

Revenge most bitter?

You don't need Shakespeare to imagine forces of dark vengeance now roiling in Bush's Skull & Bones dungeon of a hypothalamus.

Watch out for exploding cigars, Fidel !!

[jmowreader]

44. Castro quit smoking

And he has no need to travel in small airplanes.

Bush, on the other hand, is smoking right now. You can see it coming out of his ears.

[LiberalFighter]

25. Whose fault?

###
Top Bush administration officials last month accused Castro of trying to destabilize Latin America by stirring up anti-American sentiment in the region in alliance with Venezuelan populist President Hugo Chavez.
###

Destabilize? If anyone causes destabilization it would be bush* and his scumbags.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[0rganism]

53. Castro speaks better English than bush

That's no secret.

In fact, it's getting to be something of a cheap shot.

Yeah, we have an unelected retard for a "president", no need to rub it in.

[yellowcanine]

55. delivering a four-hour 20-minute speech

I guess it's safe to say he isn't dead, then. No doubt a few members of the audience are, though.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

56. Like him or not.

He's a hell of a speaker. I don't expect many of us here to understand living in the land of the sound bite. He's one hell of an orator. That is something that the Democrats with very few notable exceptions have lost.

[Osolomia]

57. The "audience roared" and were "in stitches"

what kind of blinders are you wearing to conclude that they're dead? Did you get them from fauxnews?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

59. The offer the best kind. Guaranteed to work.

[yellowcanine]

60. it was a joke. Back on the "blinders" thing again?

You really need to come up with a new insulting term. Kind of boring, you know. I don't watch fauxnews, by the way.

[Osolomia]

63. If you can't stand to deal with the facts behind the news on LBN

then there's always the Lounge to spew your stale "joke" and fantasies!

[yellowcanine]

72. Whatever

You might want to note Rule #2 of the Message Board Rules. I'll paste it here for your convenience.

2. Treat people with respect. Don't be rude or bigoted. Discuss the message, not the messenger.

Telling people they have "blinders" would seem to be discussing the messenger, not the message, imo. Not very respectful, either.

[Osolomia]

74. You can fool some of the people some of the time

but you don't fool me for a second.

There's nothing “bigoted” about your “joke” eh? As you know, it’s not the first time either. This rule’s for you:

Do not post racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic, anti-religious, or anti-atheist bigotry. Unambiguous expressions of bigotry will be deleted, and will often result in the immediate banning of the individual responsible.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#bigotry

[Judi Lynn]

66. I don't believe this!

Look what I found: a tiny news item buried among others, which says that James Cason, U.S. Interests Section head in Havana issued a statement which was read on Cuban tv, and printed in Cuban newspapers, and we were NEVER told. We were only told when former President (and ELECTED President) Jimmy Carter went to Cuba and addressed the Cuban public on tv.

The treatment our press gave it made it sound as rare as the coming of Christ!

Here's the news item:

(snip)
U.S. statement read on Cuban TV
"There were communications between the two governments on the issue," said the source familiar with the situation.

A commentator on Cuba's state-run television read a statement Wednesday night from James Cason, mission chief of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana.

"If it wasn't the first time, it was the first time in a long time a U.S. official has had that kind of direct contact with the Cuban people," said Gonzalo Gallegos, a spokesman for the U.S. Interests Section.

Cason's statement warned that "any hijacker of any nationality, including Cubans" would face criminal prosecution if caught hijacking any means of transportation to the United States, Gallegos said.

Gallegos said Cason's statement was also published in two Cuban newspapers and read on state radio.
(snip)

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americas/04/03/castro.hijackers/

I just learned that the spokesman, Gonzalo Gallegos is presently an assistant to Roger Noriega, the clown in the State Department who got the job _Bush wanted Cuban "exile" Otto Reich (and Reagan monster in the Office of Public Diplomacy during the Iran-Contra war, where he LIED out his kazooster through bogus propaganda leaked to newspapers, tv, etc., including vile personal attacks on reporters) to have.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Speaking of Gonzalo Gallegos, you find THIS piece of genuine intimidation peculiar. You may want to ask yourself if this is the conduct you expect from your own gubmint:

(snip)
Cuba conference in Mobile Alabama opens amid controversy
By GEORGE TALBOT | Business Reporter | www.al.com

An air of conspiracy mixed with the Cuban artwork and rum cocktails Friday as the Society Mobile-La Habana opened its 10th anniversary conference in Mobile.

The fraternal organization, established in 1993 to promote cultural exchanges between Mobile and Havana, was linked by U.S. State Department officials Friday to a Cuban diplomat expelled from the U.S. earlier this year under suspicion of espionage.

Oscar Redondo, former First Secretary for the Cuban Interests Section in Washington, D.C., was one of seven Cuban officials declared "persona non grata" by the State Department in May because of what it described as "intelligence activities incompatible with their diplomatic status." The offi cials, who denied the charges, were given 10 days to leave the country.
(snip)

Later Friday, a State Department spokesman said the Mobile society was not suspected of committing espionage or any illegal activity.

"We would not infer that they knowingly engaged in those types of activities," said Gonzalo Gallegos, a spokesman in the department's Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs. "There were a lot of people engaged with the (expelled) diplomats. We have no reason for increased scrutiny" of the Mobile society.
(snip)

http://havanajournal.com/politics_comments/P900_0_5_0/

Christ, Gonzalo, that's mighty big of the Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs of the State Department! We're impressed!

[Judi Lynn]

73. Morgan Lewis Sued Over Clients' Business With Cuba

Morgan Lewis Sued Over Clients' Business With Cuba
Jeff Blumenthal
The Legal Intelligencer
02-13-2004


Morgan Lewis & Bockius vowed to "vigorously" defend itself against two businessmen who sued the firm for legal malpractice and conflict of interest, calling the allegations that the firm gave erroneous legal advice about their company's trade with Cuba "grossly inaccurate" and "meritless."

The plaintiffs, brothers Stefan & Don Brodie, claim in the suit filed in Philadelphia Common Pleas Court late Wednesday afternoon that they were criminally prosecuted for following the firm's advice that their company, Bro-Tech Corp., was free to trade with Cuba despite the American embargo on such actions. It also alleged that Assistant U.S. Attorney Kristin Hayes, wife of Morgan Lewis managing partner of operations Thomas Sharbaugh, volunteered to participate in the prosecution despite an appearance of conflict of interest. Plaintiff attorneys are Clifford Haines of Haines & Associates and Marc Kasowitz and Aaron Marks of Kasowitz Benson Torres & Friedman. Morgan Lewis announced that Conrad O'Brien Gellman & Rohn would be representing the firm.

Morgan Lewis officials were particularly riled by accusations levied against Edward Dennis, who retired as a partner in the white-collar criminal defense practice group in 2002 after a distinguished career.

The suit claims that even after the U.S. Customs Service launched an investigation in 1997 into the company's trade with Cuba, Dennis reiterated earlier advice from other Morgan Lewis attorneys that the Foreign Sovereign Compulsion Doctrine -- which provides that conduct compelled by a foreign country is immune from liability in the U.S. in certain circumstances -- would be a viable defense to any charges that the company violated Cuban embargo violations and would apply to future transactions as well.
(snip/...)

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1076428315830

[Osolomia]

76. Funny the article doesn't mention James Sabzali!

June 26-July 2, 2003
Battle Eternal
Cuba traders’ convictions are overturned. Is smooth sailing ahead?
by Steve Eckardt

Seven years ago, the U.S. government dropped a bomb onto the life of Jim Sabzali, a onetime standup comic and a Canadian now living with his wife and two children in suburban Wynnewood.

The explosion was 76 charges of violating the 1917 Trading with the Enemy Act, plus one count of conspiracy.

The damage was a possible 205 years in prison and more than $19 million in fines.

The crime? Selling water-purification supplies to Cuba.

What's more, almost half the charges were for sales he made while working and living in Canada, where obeying the U.S. embargo against Cuba is illegal. In the dock with him were his employers, Stefan and Donald Brodie, and their Bala Cynwyd-based Purolite Company, which manufactures water-purification resins in plants across the United States and at wholly owned subsidiaries in Wales and Italy.

Last spring, all were found guilty of helping to make water in Cuba drinkable.

Fast -forward to last week, when the same case blew up on Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Poluka. The bright young prosecutor saw his hard-won convictions of the Canadian and his Bala Cynwyd co-defendants turn to dust.

Not only did the judge overturn her own jury's verdicts, but she blamed it all on Poluka and his fellow prosecutor's "misconduct." U.S. District Judge Mary McLaughlin wrote in a decision released last Monday that Poluka's closing-argument story of defendants engaging in "deception, concealment and obstruction" -- not to mention shredding and withholding documents -- was "not supported by the evidence."

More...
http://citypaper.net/articles/2003-06-26/cb5.shtml

U.S. Ups Sentence on Canadian Cuba Salesman;
Water Purification Sales a 'National Security' Offence
By Steve Eckardt
16 October 2002

... The sentencing document also determined that Sabazli's offences were against U.S. "national security." Its conclusion is based on the official 1962 proclamation establishing the U.S. embargo against Cuba.

"The present government of Cuba is incompatible with the principles and objectives of the Inter-American system ... in light of the subversive offensive of Sino-Soviet Communism with which the Government of Cuba is publicly aligned," the document quotes the proclamation as saying.

It continues: "the United States, in accordance with its international obligations, is prepared to take all necessary action to promote national and hemispheric security by isolating the present government of Cuba and thereby reducing the threat posed by its alignment with the communist powers."

Based on this 1962 proclamation, authorities determining Sabazli's sentence conclude that "the purpose for imposing the embargo was to promote national security, therefore this is a national security control" offence.

Sentencing is currently pending the outcome of defence motions for the judge to "set aside" the jury's verdicts. While legal experts agree that such motions are infrequently granted, Judge Mary McLaughlin did set aside the conviction of one U.S. executive in the case this past May on the grounds of "insufficient evidence."

The U.S. is appealing that ruling.

Meanwhile Sabzali continues to be free on bail, with an electronic monitoring device on his ankle. The deed to his house, his passport and those of his wife and two children are in the hands of the authorities.

More...
http://www.canadiannetworkoncuba.ca/Documents/Sabzali-Eckardt.shtml

[0007]

81. The pardon of Orlando Bosch by Senior Bush sez it all!

...and that ain't no joke.

[Osolomia]

82. The complicity of hypocritical spineless Dems sez a lot too!

...and this ain't no joke:

Candidates on the issues: Cuba
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=338191

[mobuto]

83. Don't like the spineless Dems?

Ok, then, go vote for Bush. Its your choice.

[Osolomia]

84. So long as that's the best the Dems have to offer

no wonder the party keeps losing.

If it's the Bush Doctrine you want then why are you voting second rate?