Nader expected to launch new bid for White House

[LostInTheMaise]

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/7950408.htm

WASHINGTON - Oops, Ralph Nader's doing it again.

Almost exactly four years after he announced he would run for president, the former Green Party candidate is poised to declare that he is running again this year, this time as an independent.

Despite a vigorous effort on the part of the left to keep Nader from running and despite his insistence that he's still mulling over his decision, friends, associates and insiders say he is determined to run again.

"I think there's very little doubt," said Micah Sifry, the author of a book on third-party politics and a longtime Nader watcher. "I think he's going to run."

Nader has twice delayed saying whether he would be a candidate, but with the anniversary of his Feb. 21, 2000, announcement coming up, insiders expect the latest declaration next week.

-snip-

[NNN0LHI]

1. Doesn't surprise me. He helped Bush become president once

He will surely try and do it again.

Don

[loudnclear]

52. He can hurt only Bush this time.

Anyone voting Dem is not going to change and disgruntled and diappointed Repukes will need someone to vote for. Ralph is a has-been and an egotist of the monster kind. He never thinks of the overall good, just his particular desire at the moment.

[joeunderdog]

59. I agree. This is horrible news for Bush.

There are SO many angry Repukes now who won't vote for Shrub. Most of them will just stay home andyway, but some will vote the other Non-Dem. There is a large contingent of the dissatisfied RW who would never vote Dem, who always vote and who will now have an alternative. This is great news this time around.

[Muddleoftheroad]

60. You must be joking

There are only a handful of Republicans who have ANYTHING in common with Nader.

This event shows, once again, that the Greens are OUR enemy.

[wryter2000]

68. Greens not the enemy

The Greens aren't doing it this time. Nader's doing it on his own. Does the man have no shame?

[Muddleoftheroad]

117. OK

Any Green who supports him then.

[IndianaGreen]

69. Nader is not a Green, never was, and he is running as an independent

If your statement means that all Greens are bad, then I think all Greens should take offence at what you said and sit out the election.

[niceypoo]

106. right....all greens will sit out the election

Because of a post on a message board. Riiiight!
lol

[GabysPoppy]

128. Sit out the election?

Then everythng said about the greens is true.

And if Nadar was never a green, why the hell did they run him on their ticket four years ago?

And for everyone who says "my state was going republican anyway, my vote didn't count" may you all be prohibited from teaching democracy to the children of the world.

[Lithos]

150. There are two Green Parties

Or were last Election. There was the one that Nader created/coopted and there is the real Green Party which is affiliated with the European Green party system. As I recall Nader caused quite a bit of schism within the Green Party last time and probably hurt them with all of the negative publicity.

[GabysPoppy]

152. Here is the web site I believe of the green party world wide

http://www.globalgreens.info/

and linked to that page is the American green party

http://www.gp.org/

On the second posted link, they have a page denying blame for 2000.

http://www.gp.org/organize/spoiled.html

If this is as you imply in your post a different green party, why then are they not distancing themselves from Nadar in their explanation?

Or is there a third green party I should be looking for?

[Lithos]

153. There are two US green parties

One is www.gp.org, the other is www.greenparty.org. What I remember at the time was that while Nader took the nomination of both, there was quite a split in one of them (www.greenparty.org?) that left quite a sour taste and which divided the party. Then again, Nader did quite a few things which left a sour taste in many people's memories.

L-

[GabysPoppy]

155. This from your link

The Greens/Green Party USA is comprised of member groups from 23 different states, as well as several at-large members.

This does not appear to be on the level of both the International or the National parties I found above. To compare this group with either of the two above hardly seems comparable.

If I recall, their international listing of contacts listed just a single person. Unless I have missed something, my original statement stands.

[rawtribe]

164. A two party

winner take all system, with one party dominating all three branches. Shouldn't be teaching democracy to anyone.
So many people have no voice in our government, maybe that's why so many don't bother to vote. At least the Greens show up!

=============================================
“..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority to set brush fires in people's minds.”
— Samuel Adams

[Terwilliger]

72. Yet there are SCADS of Democrats who've openly supported Bush

Greens believe in something

[niceypoo]

107. Right. Democrats will be tripping over each other..........

to see who can be first to vote for Bush. Was that a flying pig that just went by my window?

[Calico4000]

121. If stopped being a smart a

for just a moment, you might realize what the original poster meant. HUGE numbers of dems have supported the bush agenda. (including out own nominee) Either with votes (i.e. iraq, patriot, homeland sec, etc), lack of attacking when they could and should have, and hell even some who openly stood by them (Lieberman in rose garden) and/or openly supported them. (Miller)

[Terwilliger]

133. I guess you haven't been paying attention!

Ashcroft, tax cuts, patriot act, IWR, free trade....Dems never met a Bush policy they couldn't vote for

Only thing they SEEM to dislike about Bush is his penchant for stacking the court with far-right judges.

OH...let's not forget Medicare and No Child Left Behind, etc. etc.

[question everything]

157. Soooo... if the Democrats are so bad why bother to vote for them?

Hey, let's close the business of primaries and general elections. Let's give Bush and Ashcroft four more years for further erosions of our privacy, of our civil rights. Let's go on with Patriot Act 3, 4, to ten. Let's continue to give large corporations all the tax breaks that they want while cheer the shipping out of jobs. And, of course, let's wait until Bush can nominate one or two more supreme court justices.

Sure, you can sit pretty and keep your virginity for the right match and while this and other boards are closed because all of us are being monitored, you can feel, uh, so smug that you did not compromise.

Ever heard of Pastor Martin Niemoller? Perhaps you should study him.

[PsychoDad]

161. if the Democrats are so bad why bother to vote for them?

Thats what I've been asking :silly:

[IndianaGreen]

158. Zell Miller and Ed Koch have endorsed Bush for President

That's two well-known Democrats, particularly in the case of Ed Koch who I used to like.

[Zhade]

75. Take that, Greens! You're either with us or against us!

How very...Republican of you.

[Muddleoftheroad]

119. How very realistic of me

People who vote against us are...what then?

[GreyV]

166. True patriots and real human beings...

True patriots and real human beings with correct moral understanding.

[jsw_81]

90. Great news?!?

You're nuts. This is HORRIBLE news.

[niceypoo]

105. There are two diehard Republicans in my chatroom who say they will vote...

Nader if he runs. They absoluteluy wont vote Bush. Several others say they will vote kerry to stop Bush.

[mobuto]

108. Well, that's scientific

For every Republican vote Nader gets, he'll get a thousand Democratic votes.

Nader's 2004 slogan: Four More Years.

[question everything]

66. Hopefully, he will be beaten so badly, that this will be his last attempt

What a sorry end for someone who started as a real advocate and ended up just another ego maniac.

[Calico4000]

122. How Nazi politic of you

Don't like your opponent - beat him until he is out of the race. And you DON'T support the republicans? Maybe you need to look at switching partys...

[question everything]

156. It is thanks to Nader that we are stuck with Bush

I would think that the Republicans would love to see Nader running.

What, exactly, can you not understand about this?

[Terwilliger]

135. question everything....except the Nader-as-egomaniac mantra?

you should change your nickname

[TheDonkey]

103. Let Nader run.

egotistic bastard.

No one is going to be tricked by him again.

[Zhade]

74. Sigh...for the TEN THOUSANDTH TIME...

NADER DID NOT COST US THE ELECTION. IT WAS STOLEN.

Why must this be repeated to PROGRESSIVES even four years later...?

[DiverDave]

89. If Nader would have

NOT RAN, Gore would be in the WH.
The theft would HAVE NEVER HAPPENED!!

JEEZ!! when will YOU get that??

[mobuto]

109. If it weren't for Ralph Nader

Al Gore would be President.

Its that simple. You're either a Democrat or you're not.

[Terwilliger]

140. I see, so the 75% of the country that isn't Democrat is your enemy?

No wonder Repukes are able to make the hate-filled jackals meme stick

[mobuto]

154. Draw whatever conclusions you like

But this is a two-party country, and if you vote for someone other than the Democratic candidate in November, you are voting to reelect President Bush.

If reporting the truth makes me a "hate-filled jackal" then so be it. But the Democratic Party is the only viable national Progressive Party and if you vote against it, you vote against Progressive policies. Its your choice.

You may have to compromise your beliefs in a couple of areas. That's fine. The stakes are too high for you to waste your vote.

[smirkymonkey]

171. Exactly, Nader has absolutely

NO chance of winning. The only possible effect his running will have is to tilt the advantage toward bush.

Anyone who votes for him because the Dem candidate isn't their ideal is a fool. Don't people understand that 4 more years of idiot boy and this country goes third world??

I despise Nader at this point almost as much as I despise shrub. Maybe even more so, because Nader is consciously making a decision to f**k this country, whereas to shrub it's just second nature.

What will it take to get this guy and his ego out of presidential politics??? :grr:

[yowzayowzayowza]

2. Hey, it's a free country...

(for now); but, running as an independent sounds kinda silly.

[Jackpine Radical]

3. Well, this time he'll get about 9 votes.

I don't see him as a serious threat to the Dems, especially if a few wacko Libertarian candidates and the like run to siphon off some Bush votes.

[Mari333]

4. damn him

damn him for this. Its life and death now Ralph. Enough is enough.

[no_hypocrisy]

5. Can't he just support Dennis Kucinich?

How much progressive change can this country handle? (rhetorical statement)

[Heritic]

7. What the hell is he thinking?

For the love of God, doesn't he understand he has ZERO chance and that we cannot survive another Bush Whitehouse.

[Stuckinthebush]

9. He's a narcissist...

He will justify it again by saying that there isn't a dimes worth of difference between the two parties, and that he needs to run to bring a real progressive voice into the mix. Of course, if this were true, he would have been out there stumping for DK for a while.

People are tired of Nader. He had his time in the political sun and now he will be seen as a wannabe spoiler.

[Calico4000]

123. Nader is planning

to throw all his support to the dem just before the election.

[kucinich_krazy]

78. greens for kucinich

in my area most of the greens have committed to switching
party affiliation (temporarily) since we're caucusing, and
voting for kucinich.  the greens have been very supportive of
progressive actions and were the central organizers for our
peace march last yr.
go greens.

krazy

[alarimer]

84. But

Will they vote for the Democratic nominee (because it sure as hell is not going to be Kucinich)?

[KennedyGuy]

6. Maybe he can tell us again

How there's no difference between Bush and Gore. Gimme a break! Go home ralph. Where is Ross Perot when we need him.

[leesa]

49. I believe Ross is busy ripping us off somewhere else right now.

After he helped rape California, he's been off doing nasties elsewhere.

[Zhade]

76. Got some sources on that?

I'd love to read the info - especially since I'm IN California.

[Terwilliger]

87. you're in California and didn't know about Perot?

that's not good

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/07/10/eveningnews/main514772.shtml

one of the many stories

[Robb]

8. Oh.

I figured he was gonna bid on repainting it, or something. :shrug:

[Iverson]

10. scapegoating aside, I think it's a mistake

I, for one, categorically reject the Hillary bashing (excuse me, Nader bashing) that is part of the ritual of Democratic Party denial about what happened in 2000 and whether or not it owns the left.

Even so, an independent run by Nader would not be very effective in furthering his message. He does not have the monies at his disposal of, say, a Ross Perot, and he would not be running with even the modest organization of the Green Party to help his candidacy.

It has already been demonstrated that the two mainstream parties will cheerfully join hands to keep his voice silent. Since then (2000), the rightward drift of the political discourse has continued steadily, so that now the "liberal" New York Times has called for the exclusion of Kucinich and Sharpton from further candidate debates, and New Democrats On Line has run an article disingenuously equating Kucinich with Donald Rumsfeld. When left-liberal Democrats are treated this way, Nader can expect no better than the Greens and nuns put on the "no fly" list.

Assuming that he runs (not yet a certainty), his campaign will be marginalized if it gets mentioned at all, which could only be to the detriment of getting out his critique of corporatism in the meantime.

edited for clarity

[Stuckinthebush]

11. But, remember...

The left isn't mad at Nader because we believe that the Dems own the left, we are mad that he pushed forward that insane statement that there was no difference between the two parties.

Events of the past 3 1/2 years belie that statement.

[Iverson]

14. a minor correction

You refer not to "the left" but rather to partisan Democrats who made a point of listening only to that bit of campaign hyperbole and ignoring everything else.

[Stuckinthebush]

15. But it was powerful hyperbole

that was untrue.

[Iverson]

17. amazing

I, too, regret the first-ever use of overstatement in a political campaign. No one in history (with emphasis upon candidate who you have supported) had ever done that before.

[Stuckinthebush]

25. OK

We will agree to disagree on this one.

[NashVegas]

55. Depends on How You Look at These Things

Both parties will do everything the military industrial complex wants. They are the people who make the real decisions.

Read my sig. It's the calling card of both parties.

The only difference between them is the methods they would use to marginalize those who don't serve their purposes.

[seventhson]

12. Frankly, Nader may be right about Bush and Kerry

and there not being a dime's worth of difference between them. (Okay maybe the difference is more than a dime, but maybe its closer to nine cents difference too.)


Nader had said that if Dean won the nomination he might stay out of it as Dean was not a part of the DLC insiders.

But now with respect to Kerry I tend to agree with Nader.

I do NOT agree that the Dems are the same as or as bad as the Repups.

But I do believe the DLC/PNAC Dems are.

And Kerry is imho one of them.

I won't vote for Nader in all likelihood unless my state is very safe.

But Kerry's ascension has me very pissed and disappointed.

The DLC killed Al Gore and annointed Kerry. Nothing could be less just. And I am afraid Kerry will crash and burn the party.

[Onlooker]

19. If you NOT any of the following ...

If you are NOT
gay
poor
elderly
handicapped
working in a dangerous profession
an anti-war activist
ill
worried about having money for retirement
Arab
living largely hand to mouth
in debt
Black or Latino
an immigrant

then I suppose it's reasonable to support Nader from a selfish point of view.

But if you are any of the above, then your life is directly affected by the President. As a gay man, I see the danger of a far right Supreme Court or a Constitutional amendment to exclude gays from the right to marry as a real threat that could lead to a trend of oppression.

There are more victims under Bush than under any Democrat. If you want to fight for more radical change, it has to happen at the local level. The President has the power to harm people, and settling for the lesser of two evils is the lesser evil.

[Mari333]

22. dont forget the parents and relatives of a soldier

its life and death now for us..if we dont get our kids OUT OF THERE and if bU$sh gets in again we might as well just lay down and die. Its life and death now...
If I meet anyone who votes for Nader again Im afraid Ill have to write them off just as I have to write off anyone who supports this occupation. Its life and death now.

[seventhson]

32. Mari - Unfortunately Kerry voted FOR this occupation. It is painful...

I feel so much for you right now Mari.

No words can express my own feelings regarding what you have to deal with.

My feelings about Kerry is that he is one of those who did this to you and that is why I have difficulty voting for him.

Kerry is a horrible choice for me. Just abysmal that I would have to sink to vote for him to beat Bush.

But I understand your feelings about this and will vote against Bush no matter what and will accept the lesser of two evils if I have to.

I am hoping it will not be necessary.

In the state where I plan to vote in November, the dems are very safe. If they are not very safe then, I will vote for them, rest assured - because I agree with you.

[Yavin4]

27. You Forgot One

If you are of draft age.

[seventhson]

I agree

I said only if there is a safe margin for the dem in my state would I consider voting Nader.

I would probably sit it out rather than vote for either Kerry or Nader if my state is safe (and it probably will be). If it is close I will vote for the dem nominee 99% sure because I agree with your assessment. Kerry is an evil IMHO - but a lesser one (I hope).

[Woodstock]

31. Actually, your list is too exclusive

women should most definitely be on that list (Bush's wackos just blocked the emergency birth control pill because - I can barely type this because of the contempt I feel - they said it would lead to teenage promiscuity, not to mention Ashcroft subpoenoing women's private medical records to back up his abortion ban bill - and I don't need to say that the health and lives of women will suffer because of both)

enlisted men & women in the military

anyone who values civil liberties

anyone who values the environment

anyone who values their own or their family's health (pollution causes disease, illness, and death, and now it's increased, many can't afford the health care to deal with it, and if they want to sue, forget it)

anyone who wants to avoid more terrorist attacks on the US, much less WWIII

there is much more...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. This is pure baloney and I am OVER IT

I just got done with a RECALL in California where i heard the same crap about Gray Davis.

Davis had signed legislation that provided funding for Olive View Hospital and other hospitals in major metropolitan areas to provide medical care for indigents free of charge...this meant everything that a county hospital USED to provide in the 70's until funds dried up. He made it much easier for the poor to obtain medi-cal and for disabled to obtain medical care. His legislation went far beyond what is provided federally and he DID it for a state of 36 million people.

In his gubernatorial appointments he gave every minority and GAY people a seat at the table on committees that vetted policy and MATTERED.

He forced industry's hand on unfettered development.

When the time came the people who depended on these services most DID vote for him, but PURIST LEFTISTS wrote editorials claiming there was no difference and the system was corrupt and blah blah blah.

I am sick of the left using THEIR electoral power to undermine and FUCK the people that really need it.

All of Davis' funding programs for indigent medical care are either on the chopping block or already chopped.

Thanks for caring but the people who really need you to care probably wish you had at least known the POLICY ISSUES prior to vetting the propaganda.

[Crachet2004]

54. You are correct in your assessment...

Imagine the judges we will have after 4 more years of Bush and then 8 of Jeb...which would be a total of 16 for Ashcroft! Then think of what we could do on the judicial front if we could take back both Houses of Congress! And we have a chance to do just that this time, we really do!

For once, our disparate party needs to close ranks in phalanx, lower the sarissas and advance! Oh well, I can never seem to find Alexander when I need him.

Nader is a spoiler, nothing more. He has always had unseen sources of income and won't disclose his tax returns even now. I originally linked to his campaign exploratory website through a very right-wing forum...hundreds of posts howling gleefully their plans of sending donations to Ralph...some thought Nader might be able to siphon as high as 12 million votes from us-which I doubt, but make no mistake, he will have the money to run. Money will not be an object. Ralph's exploratory website is what I call a "Bribesite". Anonymous contributions are accepted as a guage of the density of the "oxygen" available for a potential run on his part. "Oxygen" is not a rare gas in the GOP, and I guess for his part, Nader thinks there is plenty of it out there...can't find the exact quote. He has always been on someone's payroll and man did he burn us last time!!!!!

[AndyTiedye]

65. Only if You Don't Care about the Right to Choose, or the Environment or...

the Talibornagains taking over the country, or PNAC....

Nader is entering the race because Bush* needs him in the race
to make his planned theft of the election plausible.
He will be too far behind to "win" without a third party
to shave off Democratic votes to. It doesn't matter if only
1% really vote for Nader, the machinez will do the rest.

Nader has become "one of them"!

[Old and In the Way]

77. What's his position on Botox? Is he clean on Skull and Bones?

Can't be too complacent about these issues, you know.

[Onlooker]

13. Nihilist Nader

Nader is more concerned with air bags than with human rights. His candidacy last time resulted in damage to affirmative action, gays rights, worker rights, not to mention damage to the environment and just about everything else most of us at DU think is important. If he had not run last time, hundreds of American soldiers and Iraqi children would still be alive.

He's a nihilist, who appeals to the namby-pamby sort of progressive who has no heart, but has anger at corporations.

[Iverson]

16. post hoc fallacy

But thank you for letting off the hook the following potential "bipartisan" allies: Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, ChoicePoint, the U.S. Supreme Court, and the U.S. Senate (when the Congressional Black Caucus came calling).

Yep, it was all Nader. Oh, and his supporters, who, as you reveal, aren't really smart or decent human beings.

Good grief!

[Onlooker]

26. That's not what I said ...

This issue of this thread is Nader, not the Republicans. If the Republicans allowed for honest elections, perhaps there would be room for Nader, but the fact is the popular vote was not enough to get Gore elected, and Nader's 2 million votes probably made the difference.

I did not say the Nader supporters weren't smart or decent human beings, I just question their priorities, and believe that if they looked at the human toll of having George Bush as President, they would have to vote for the Democratic candidate, no matter who that candidate was.

[Iverson]

29. oh, my mistake

I thought that when other people brought up Republicans in a cause-effect argument with Nader, it was OK for me to explore the implications. I guess that since I'm not part of the ritual denunciation squad, I just don't get to. Oops.

Also, thanks for clarifying that this ... "the namby-pamby sort of progressive who has no heart, but has anger at corporations" includes the possibility of being smart or decent. Where did my reading skills go!

Have a bipartisan day.

[Onlooker]

34. Let me clarify ...

I agree the Republicans are more at fault than Nader for the sad state of our nation and the elections process. I think everyone on this board would agree with that. I suspect you and I would agree with that. Where we disagree, however, is whether or not a Nader candidacy would help or hinder the cause of progessives.

I have known many good government activists, and they are smart and decent people and, when I was an activist, about 25 years ago, a few of them would attend rallies for gay rights, affirmative action, and other causes.

Most of them however were focused on issues I saw as less critical. It's great they're there. Someone needs to address corporate abuse, product liability, and so on. However, when it comes to national elections, human lives are literally at stake, and I find it very hard to understand how someone who calls themselves progressive can support Nader if it means Bush gets in the White House.

[Iverson]

35. no, that's not where we disagree

If you read my note #10 on this thread, I was quite clear that I do not support a Nader candidacy. I'm just not part of the Denunciation Squad.

Where I disagree with people on this progressive website tends to be about demonizing other progressives in favor of working with neofascist far-right Republicans. People willingly discard their critical faculties if the "enemy" is small and safe to attack, even if in the same breath their party collaborates with what they purportedly oppose.

[Onlooker]

41. I can agree with you on that!

Well, yeah, you're right in a purely rational way, but Nader and his supporters do arouse ire, especially in light of the last election.

We are at war with the far right, who will stop at nothing to get elected. They steal (Democrat files), spread lies (Matt Drudge), fix elections (Florida Republicans), and so on to get themselves into positions of power. We have to do what we can to discourage people from voting for anyone other than the Democratic nominee. Perhaps by calling Nader supporters namby-pamby, I was being heavy handed, but my intentions were pure!

[name not needed]

18. Just Give it up Ralph

You have no chance in hell of getting elected. Just throw in the towel and run for mayor of wherever the hell you live if you want to be a politician that bad.

[The Zanti Regent]

20. TIme to remind folks of the Skeleton Closet site again

Here's the webpage that exposes Nader for the fake and fraud that he is

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm

PS--Hey Ralph, thanks for destroying my 23 year old nephew's life. Thanks to you he lies in Walter Reed, a quadraplegic from an Iraqui bullet. I have another nephew in the Army, do you want to make him a quadraplegic too with your narcissitic bullshit?

F YOU NADER!

[Mari333]

24. amen its life and death now

amen

[bicentennial_baby]

28. Bwahahaha!

Oooh run away, evil Nader wants to charge students $7 dollars a semester for PIRG groups! :eyes:

[The Zanti Regent]

33. Tell my quadraplegic nephew there is no difference between Bush and Gore

I dare you.

[Oreegone]

53. Thanks for the great link

And he is just plain weird....on top of everything else....


According to his former editor David Sanford, Nader refuses dinner invitations from anyone with pets, because he thinks cats cause leukemia, and simply hates dogs.

[Terwilliger]

70. gotta have some balance

http://www.realchange.org/edwards.htm

http://www.realchange.org/kerry.htm

http://www.realchange.org/dean.htm

http://www.realchange.org/clark.htm

http://www.realchange.org/kucinich.htm

[The Zanti Regent]

91. What the SKELETON CLOSET says about Kerry is NOTHING compared to Nader

Skeleton Closet on Kerry:

Rock and Roll!!!

Kerry's campaign has been trying to spice up his relatively unexciting campaign by trumpeting his past as the bass player in a rock group called "The Electras." A quick web search finds this description on a 60s garage band web site: "All of their recordings are now hot property - their best known song "Dirty Ol' Man" was written and produced by Warren Kendrick, The Litter's producer. This is a superb example of mid-sixties punk with excellent snotty vocals and chainsaw guitar and became a local hit selling 5500 copies."

Unfortunately, that was a different band. The same web site says of Kerry's outfit, "ALBUM: 1 THE ELECTRAS (No label ELT-201) 1962 -- Not to be confused with the Minnesota bunch, this private press album was the work of a prep-rock band from St. Pauls academy in Concord, New Hampshire." Another member of Kerry's band, "Rambling Jack Radcliffe", says that the group played "tea dances during the school term and parties during vacations." OK, not quite the same RAWK excitement. They were however organized enough to copyright the name first, forcing the better reputed garage band to change its moniker to "Twas Brillig" when they signed to a major label.

Actually, Ron Moore's "Underground Sound" web site describes the music as "intro guitar raveups and surf covers", which is reasonably cool.

I cannot add any flair to the following description of Kerry's post-band musical progress, though, so I'll reprint it verbatim:

Kim Taylor, Taylor's wife, tells of listening to Kerry play guitar in his living room.

''It was after dinner and James saw the guitar and John picked it up,'' Kim Taylor recalled. ''He was so excited about his progress. I mean, he was undaunted. So he played a couple of songs, and James was very impressed. He was so excited about the instrument. He said it helped him relax.''

It does not have quite the same impact on his staff, who say that Kerry will sometimes pull his guitar out in the middle of a meeting and start playing his favorite show tunes from ''Cats'' and ''Evita.'' Kerry's tastes are eclectic at best: He takes classical lessons and plays some works of Spanish virtuoso Andres Segovia, but is also a fan of the Beatles and the theme song from ''E. T.''

This is the ONLY entry they have about Kerry.

Now, compare what they have about Ralphy Boy...

Anti-Democratic Authoritarian:
Saint Ralph loves to preach about democracy and "citizen power", but he runs his carefully concealed empire with an iron grip. Of 19 groups associated with Nader, the most powerful and important groups are all directly controlled by Nader or completely under his influence and no one else's. With some groups, Nader is the only contributor; others are controlled by his sister, Laura Nader Milleron, or his cousin.

And there is nothing democratic about Nader's groups -- citizens have no power at all. Of 19 groups in Nader's network, only one relatively minor one is a membership organization, which would allow individuals to vote and challenge the decisions of the small elite running them. The groups' managers operate in strict secrecy, releasing the absolute legal minimum of information, and sometimes not even that. And when Nader IS challenged, he gets vindictive and often attacks his questioner.

Nader and his PIRG groups also fought for (and got) a very coercive funding mechanism -- dues charged automatically to all college students, whether they support Nader or not.

Beyond the hypocrisy, this authoritarian streak is very dangerous in a potential president -- presidents have tremendous power, and the most important check on it is simply their personal honor and unwillingness to abuse power. Nader has never shown these traits, much less an ability to make tough decisions that are fair to his enemies. Of course, he hasn't had much power to abuse -- yet. Anyone considering voting for him should think twice -- or three times -- about that.

Looks like Ralphy Boy and the Chimp share that Authoritarian streak!












Sources
Rock -- "Rocking the Vote, John Kerry Style", New York Times, Sept. 14, 2003

Biography of Rambling Jack Radcliffe, on his website www.ragtimejack.com, 2003

"KERRY GETS IN TUNE FOR MOBY GIG", by JOANNA WEISS, Boston Globe, September 9, 2003

"THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING NOT SO EARNEST", by Sally Jacobs, Boston Globe, May 1, 2002, pD1, reprinted partially at this yahoo group post

"Backed by a rock star, Kerry hits a new note", September 11, 2003, The Boston Globe, by Joanna Weiss and Christopher Muther, reprinted on the John Kerry official web site

Return To Top

[Terwilliger]

95. if everything realchange says is true then what it says about Dems is true

and that makes Democrats pretty bad

[radwriter0555]

21. Nadar must be paid by the GOP to screw up the vote...

that has to be it...

[Crachet2004]

104. You are correct...

They pay Ralph to run so we lose. Simple, eh? We do it to them too, sometimes. Remember Perot? There would have been no Clinton without him...

Can we just run 60 year old women at Ralph to beat his ass every time he opens his mouth? Or would that be uncivilized? Probably so. Better to just let them steal another entire national election...that way we can remain high-minded, like last time.

Wait, my grandmother who is 80 just volunteerd to kick Ralph's ass! That would be fair, right?

Oh, nevermind.

Run Ralph run.
.
.
.off a cliff in a corvair!

[Florida_Geek]

23. the only way Nader will run is on his own dime

Does not sounds like anybody will support him with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

OK maybe a couple of Rove's Friends.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Kitsune]

36. *sigh* Raaallllph.....

You used to be so cool...then politics happened. >_<

Go back to filing lawsuits against corporations, you were good at that!

[elfin]

38. I hope Dean and Kucinich both denounce him

Those are the votes he is angling for. And those are the votes that can really hurt our nominee if it isn't Dean.

[TacticalPeek]

51. Excellent idea. And its important they do that SOON.

Spend some political capital if necessary. Maybe denounce the idea of him running, as opposed to denouncing him due to the apparent sensitivities.

[Eric J in MN]

39. If you don't think Nader should run in 2004, email him at

If you don't think Nader should run in 2004, email him at

[e-mail]
and include your full name and address, so he knows your for real.

[laylah]

44. Thanks for the link...

Just e-mailed him. I hope others follow suit!

Jenn :kick:

[bluestateguy]

40. Communist

[AmericanErrorist]

80. Sigh...

The only person who isn't yelling at eveybody else is the Gravelbot.

As for me, I'm more of a jaded Democrat who (barring a Kucinich nod) will probably will have to think it over based on the canadates on the ballot in North Dakota. It only has 3 electoral votes, so my vote will mean very little to the results of the election.

[laylah]

42. What a flaming

A$$HOLE! Are there REALLY people out there that would vote for this spoiler AGAIN??????? IMHO, he is just as responsible as that jackass in OUR house for the destruction visited on MY country these past three years! :mad:

Jenn

[Kbick]

43. His name will not appear on the Ballots

He has along way to go to get his name on the ballots. If he runs as an independent, he will not have the organization of the Green party to help get signatures.

He will be a non-issue this year.

[seg4527]

45. Cool

Now I'll have somebody to vote for after Dean drops out. This makes me happy, because I don't want to spend my first election night sitting at home, not voting, because there's nobody good to vote for.

[flowomo]

46. Dean would probably accept his VP offer

Given Dean's stubborn refusal to see that he cannot win and that his continued presence threatens to aid the Bush effort, Howard is Ralph's political soulmate.

[Hotler]

47. I like his

attitude toward corporate greed and special interest. Our elected Dems don't stand up against it like they should.

[mobuto]

111. Oh?

Nader, who owns millions in corporate securities, and who busted a union his own employees tried to form?

Actions speak louder than words, my friend, and Nader's scum.

[Skittles]

48. SICK ARROGANT BASTARD

what's the point, Ralph? WHAT IS THE F***ING POINT?????????????

[Oreegone]

50. Nader another word for loser

Nader if you are so freakin' smart where were you when Bush took away our rights and gave John Ashcroft and Charles Pickering jobs? Where were you when we went to war? Where were you when Bush took away our clean air, water the last of our forests and went for drilling for oil everywhere?

I didn't hear a peep from you, if you really believed in these things you should have been yelling from the mountaintops....instead,,,silence as our Democracy crumbles. I have lost my last shred of respect.

Now you think anyone wants to vote for you?

Anyone who falls for this one again is just plain foolish and surely white and comfortable. Bush and Gore the same? This man was too busy filing lawsuits or looking in the mirror to read.

[Fargin Ice Hole]

96. Sad ain't it? I feel the same way..........But to call him a Loser?

I never blamed him for the election results. And anybody that does put the blame on him doens't understand or respect democracy.

I really liked the guy, but after being a ghost for the last 3 years, he showed the world where his heart was. I can understand being disheartend after all that happened....Becomeing the scapegoat....him being shut out of debates and ultimatley contributing to Bush's throne( I just can't believe that this was his purpose.) And anyone who does never took the time or energy to understand the guy.

But after not speaking up about things that happened in the past 3 years, He better come foreward with some kind of a deaththreat he was under before I cast a vote for him.

[Terwilliger]

98. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

no, but I know Dems who would say that Nader and Dean were effectively the same

How do you feel about that?? AHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

167. bullsh*t

I saw Nader speak 3 days after 9-11 and he warned us of the Patriot Act that was coming, of the attacks being used as an excuse by Bush to invade the middle east

nader has spoken out on these issues. just because the coporate media deosn't report criticism of chimpy from anyone doesn't negate that.

Gore on the other hand, gave his "George W. Bush is my commander in chief" speech that same day. kerry voted for the patriot act and the war

as Public Enemy says, "get your shit correct" before you smear

[TacticalPeek]

56. Too dense to run for president.

Its not like we or Nader have to wonder what a Ralph run would be like. We have a case in hand, the 2000 atrocity.

I have a simple challenge for Nader and supporters of his running.

Please cite two benefits to the American people that obtained from Nader's 2000 run. (And, assuming the progressive ideals of his supporters, the presence of aWol in the WH cannot be cited as a benefit, nor the many advantages that accrue to the R's due to that presence.)


Sound of crickets . . . .

[madmom]

57. Proof positive nadar is a repuke n/t

[Iverson]

88. Here, you need this! (link)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=332620&mesg_id=334175&page=

[messiah]

58. BAD SOURCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this news is from a person who's not even close to Nader.

[eeyore]

61. I Think I'm Gonna RALPH!!!!

I'm not one to blame the entire (s)election 2000 on Ralph, but he should stay the fuck away for the good of the country.

Some folks who live near me have had a sign in their yard since the (s)election that says DON'T BLAME ME, I VOTED FOR NADER.

I don't blame them for the last time, but I would have huge issues with anyone who throws away their vote on Ralph this time.

[The Blue Knight]

63. If you vote for Nader in 04, you have no right to bitch about what GWB ...

does in his 2nd term.

[Iverson]

81. simply wrong

It seems that the Republican taste for shredding the Bill of Rights is catching. I blame bipartisanship.

People may reserve the same set of rights as always, regardless of how they cast their ballots. This includes Democrats who celebrate "bipartisanship" and cave into the Republicans with regularity before using them as a bludgeon to compel unquestioning obedience from the electorate come election time.

I have the right to a secret ballot, and I will complain when the situation warrants. Suffer.

[Dulcinea]

62. Nader has zero credibility.

He's nothing but a sad narcissist who should take at least some of the blame for inflicting Boy George & his posse of nutjobs on OUR country!

Go back to the rock you've been living under, Ralph, & don't come out till December at least!

[Lori Price CLG]

64. Here's the summary on CLG regarding nutball Nader.

GOP Operative Poised to Help Bush, Again, in 2004: Nader expected to launch new bid for White House Almost exactly four years after Ralph Nader announced he would run for president, the former Green Party candidate is poised to declare that he is running again this year, this time as an independent. Despite a vigorous effort on the part of the left to keep Nader from running and despite his insistence that he's still mulling over his decision, friends, associates and insiders say he is determined to run again. (How much is Karl Rove paying Nader, this time?)

Lori Price
http://www.legitgov.org/index.html#breaking_news

[Terwilliger]

71. Does that make the DLC GOP members?

How about all the Democratic party idiots who've supported Bush for the last 3 years?

[Iverson]

82. impermissible question

Challenging the legitimacy of collaborators is out-of-bounds.

The only permissible response here is to legitimize far-right Hillary-bashing by doing the partisan Democrat version of it. Got that?

[mountainvue]

67. Just

emailed him. Hope it helps. We're at a crossroads here. I can't take another four years of fascism.

[Iverson]

83. darn right!

That's why we need unquestioning obedience to a candidate who has voted for the USAPATRIOT Act and the Iraq War Resolution! Down with fascism, except when one particular side finds it politically expedient!

[mountainvue]

97. Nader voted

for Patriot and IWR?

[Iverson]

113. nope. take another spin.

n/t (except this bit)

[Zhade]

73. NEWSFLASH: Voters Expected To Ignore Nader

GO AWAY, you stupid self-centered fuck! You didn't cost us the election last time, but if you do this time, you're going to regret it!

[young_at_heart]

79. What does he want........to destroy our country?

I can't figure out his motive.......why, why, why?

[Lori Price CLG]

85. Why? Money, money, money.

Nader freelances for Karl Rove. And, according to The Village Voice, so does Al Sharpton. When I read that article on Sharpton, a lot of the pieces of the puzzle fall into place...

-Lori Price

[Terwilliger]

86. so what is Nader doing with this money, money, money...eh?

maybe another citizen advocacy group?? *SHOCKING*!!! :eyes:

[The Zanti Regent]

92. This is what lying Ralph does with money

He's every bit the liar that Pat Robertson is

from: http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm

Amassing millions of dollars and playing the stock market with it:
Unlike almost every other nonprofit organization, Nader's various groups often amass a nontaxable profit of several hundred thousand dollars per year, and have rapidly build up impressive net worth's -- which Ralph refuses to reveal in his annual reports. (His lame reply is that people who are interested can get the information by getting every year's annual report and doing the math. So much for openness.)

The book "Abuse of Trust" carefully documents the money amassed and stocks played for 6 major groups, including Public Citizen, Inc. and the Center for the Study of Responsive Law, his two largest groups. Public Citizen, Inc., in particular, amassed money so quickly that it bought an old FBI building for $1.25 million IN CASH in 1980, only its eighth year of existence.

One reason he may hide his ample cash reserves -- besides the fact that people may not want to give him more money -- is that he is fond of playing the stock market with that green. (He also uses surpluses from his most flush organizations, usually the tax deductible ones, to give grants to his other groups.) Some of these transactions appear reckless for a nonprofit, "public interest" group; others skirt the edges of insider trading and conflict of interest. Mostly, it seems that all this money was a toy that Nader enjoyed playing with, especially as his winnings increased his power, fame and influence.

For example, the Nader is the president and treasurer of the Public Safety Research Institute. In 1970 alone, PSRI traded on the stock market 67 times, buying and selling $750,000 worth of stock, though the organization only had $150,000 worth of assets. These trades included a number of short sales, high risk and tricky transactions. Some worked, some lost money. In later years, PSRI traded less, for a good reason -- the IRS audited them after 1970 and charged the organization with "churning", excessive stock trades whose risk threatens the charitable purposes of the organization. It paid a fine and did not contest the charge. Thereafter, PSRI continued to play the market with fewer, generally long positions. Likewise, the Safety Systems Foundation (SSF) -- run by Nader's sister, and entirely funded by him personally -- engaged in a number of stock and bond transactions in the late 1960s and early 1970s. It was also fined by the IRS and paid without contest.

Several of these trades were poised to take advantage of Nader's activities, by selling short the stock of companies Nader's groups attacked, or buying stock of their competitors. In 1973, PSRI bought stock in Allied Chemical, the primary manufacturer of airbags, on the very day before GM announced they would offer optional airbags on 1974 models. PSRI made a 12.5% profit in 3 and a half months. In 1976, PSRI and the SSF bought stock in Goodyear just as the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration -- then run by former top Nader aide Joan Claybrook -- announced an investigation of the Firestone 500 series of steel-belted radials. The 2 organizations held onto the stock for 2 years until there was a recall, and Firestone -- Goodyear's major competitor -- suffered.

In 1970, IT&T attempted to merge with the Hartford Fire Insurance Company. Nader filed a 50 page brief attacking the merger, then SSF sold IT&T stock short. It made almost 10% on its money in 6 DAYS, then closed its position two days before the merger was approved. When pressed by a reporter, Nader said the timing was "mere coincidence" and said he had no control over the investment. However, his sister Laura Nader Millerson was the sole trustee of SSF throughout its existence, and Nader was the sole contributor.

[mot78]

93. Nader, go back to your room before the doctors realize your gone

Ralph needs start taking his meds and realize that destroying liberalism WON'T help.

Oh, and if anyone here will support Nader if he runs (NBD people for example) take a hard look at these threads and posts:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1077969/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1078015/posts



I will support Nader's campaign any way possible.
We ought to form a group that pretends to swap votes between states. We could pretend to be Nader voters in tossup states willing to swap with Kerry voters in blowout states. We'll vote for President Bush but cause Nader's popular vote to go up and Kerry's popular vote to go down nationwide.


4 posted on 02/14/2004 2:07:44 AM PST by Paleo Conservative (Do not remove this tag under penalty of law.)


To: jagrmeister
His "exploratory" website is at www.naderexplore04.org. (DON'T CLICK! I intentionally left off the http prefix to keep this from being a link. Cut-n-paste the address into your browser's address bar rather than clicking on a link, lest Nader's sysadmins see a pile of Free Republic referrer log entries).

He is recruiting campaign volunteers at www.naderexplore04.org/volunteer.html . His decision on whether or not he'll run will be partially based on how much volunteer support he receives.

I recommend not only volunteering under several assumed identities, but to also actually volunteer as your real self. We want this guy to do very, very well. Most importantly, we don't want him entering the race and then dropping out when he realizes his support is a sham.

Nader will paint Kerry as the limousine liberal that he is. He will point out Kerry's special interest record, and vilify him for his wife's riches. In other words, he'll alienate the Far Left from Kerry, something which the Bush team could never do on their own because they don't speak the Far Left's language. This man will do a great deal of good by being in this race.

5 posted on 02/14/2004 2:18:13 AM PST by Omedalus
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies >
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies >

[Q]

94. Most Democrats STILL don't get why they LOST the 2000 election...

...and it seems it will take one more loss before they wake up.

- Nader running is a minor problem compared to what the Bushies have in mind to steal yet another one.

- I wonder how many on this board know the numbers of Democrats who voted for Bush* in 2000? The problem is much deeper than Nader.

[kwolf68]

99. Horrific

Ever since the Repukes thing Perot handed Clinton the Presidency in 1992, they have learned that to win all you have to do is divide the opponents.

This is the most incredible thing I have ever heard.

I believe Nadar is a Republican tool. There can be no other explanation. Nadar has to know he isn't going to be elected, but he could cost the Democrats say...ONE State...Say a state like New Hampshire which could return the White House to Bush.

Nadar can fuck off.

[Octafish]

100. Four years of Bushler ain't enough for ya?

Hey Ralphie boy! The Little Turd from Crawford is unsafe for any living thing!

[JCMach1]

101. Greens... this is the thanks you get???

Running as an Independent?

[metisnation]

102. Voted Nader in 2000

I didnt fully understand the impact that it would have. I am sure there are others. I will not be making that mistake again!

JFK 04'

:kick:

[Terwilliger]

120. thanks?

Nader gave Greens a chance and a recognition in 1996 and 2000 that they would not have had otherwise.

The other person up for Green party presidential choice was Jello Biafra. How well do you think Greens would have done with Jello Biafra running?

[flaminbats]

110. MOMMMMMMY, booo-hooo!!!!!!!!!

:cry:............where did all zee prozac go man???

[Piperay]

112. He's so happy he helped give chimp the first term he

wants to give him another one. Where has Nader been the last 3 and a half years, I have yet to hear him be critical of anything the chimp does so I guess he is happy with his handiwork, that assh*le.:puke:

[opihimoimoi]

114. Ralph is a term for puking..................

:puke:

[AngryAmish]

115. Well

How about that.

[expatriot]

116. 2-time Nader-voter repulsed at the prospect...

of a Nader run. I still respect Nader as a person, his legacy, etc. but he is not of the right mind now at all.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

118. I deleted this message

It was unecessarily provocative and potential flamebait and I think my point has been adequately conveyed by other posters on this thread. Let's just say that Ralph Nader never will be one of my favorite American politicians

[GreyV]

124. Good...

Good for Nader. I support his candidacy, independent or green. The amount of responses in this thread, and their quality, illustrates perfectly the fear, disarray, and plain moral blindness American Democratic party has decided to represent. Aside for few, most of the Democrats in all parts of the government supported and support the invasion of Iraq and the massive slaughter that followed. No, the Democratic party deserves this more than anything. I hope Nader gets many, many... MANY votes. Democratic ones.

[Dr Fate]

126. Greens cant even win in San Francisco...

the most Liberal city in the USA and they cant even win the mayorship...

What makes you think Nader can win even one state? Elections are about VOTES- how many can Nader get????

[Terwilliger]

132. Another creative distortion

NEVERMIND that the outcome was 53-47 and that dead people were voting for Newsom

NEVERMIND that Democrats paraded Pelosi, Feinstein, Boxer, Gore, and Clinton in front of the Newsom crowds and he STILL nearly lost

You're parsing like a Republican, Fate

[Dr Fate]

137. And yet they lost. This is a liberal stronghold...

and Gonzales put up a damn good fight- but he turned me off when he started attacking an organization (DEMS) that I've worked for and am proud of...

Hard Politics. Greens cant win SF, so how can they win even one state, much less defeat Bush???

[Terwilliger]

139. Once again distorting

Gonzales had ONE TENTH the money that Newsome did

so for ALL that (and later finding out that union workers were told to go vote for Newsom or be fired) and the fact is that Democrats stole the election in San Franciso, thereby showing why Nader wasn't so wrong after all.

[Dr Fate]

144. But he had a much better grass roots campaign...

I live in SF and I saw Gonzales stuff EVERYWHERE. He had great exposure. He is a handsome fella too. SF still chose the DEM, for what ever reason.

Facts are facts- greens cant win SF, for whatever reason, so what makes us think they can win even one state???

[question everything]

159. Seems that everyone who disagrees with you is a Republican

What an open minded individual you are. You may want to check with Ashcroft. He may have a job opening for you

[Dr Fate]

125. I hope he does not lie about Democrats again. He lied in 2000...

...several times he said "Democrats and Republicans are the same thing"

It was a lie then, and its a lie now.

[GreyV]

127. A lie?

http://www.therealdifference.org/issues.html

[Dr Fate]

129. Who is his running mate this time?

Granny D? Jello Biafra?

YES- it is a lie to say "Democrats are the same as Republicans"- we all know that is BS.

Answer my questions- what states can he win? Whats up w/ greens who cant even win in Liberal strongholds?

I want hard politics, not fantasy "what if" scenarios...

[Terwilliger]

131. Nader never said that

hard politics is that Dems keep losing and keep blaming Nader

[Dr Fate]

134. He didnt? My TV must be broken then...

...I'll believe my lying eyes on that one.

Who is he going to be "helping" by running in 2004? What states can he win? Who is is running mate? Is he accepting any republican $$$???

[Terwilliger]

138. Tell you what...you cite a link where he says that

or stop using the meme

[Dr Fate]

142. That took about 5 seconds.

"So when the Democrats get back to Washington, they're more a look-alike party with the Republicans, apart from the rhetoric, because both parties are beholden to giant corporations that control so much of our government, fund so much of our elections, and, shall we say, have quite a bit of influence over the media and the workplace and the marketplace."

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0008/18/mn.20.html

This was repeated over and over- I'm not going to argue semantics here- the idea was to lump Gore with Republicans- I call it "The Big Lie"

Yeah- right Ralph, DEMS control the media- good one...

Look- 2000 is the PAST- I'm worried about 2004!!!!

[Terwilliger]

145. So, you admit he didn't say what you claim he said

try articulate that next time

[Dr Fate]

146. Semantics- he said this in a variety of ways...

...you wanted a link, you got it. You know he said this on TV over and over. I heard it, you heard it.

I'm not going to play fancy pants word games with you- this is like Bush saying "I never said imminent"...

Nader can either help UNITE progressives and moderates, or he can divide them.

[Dr Fate]

148. Just think, we could be on the same team...

...but instead we "debate" each other, even though we agree on many/most issues...

Karl Rove LOVES it. Instead of you & me teaming up against Bush, we fight each other...

[GreyV]

151. Again...

http://www.therealdifference.org/issues.html

Reality.

[Dr Fate]

130. If we are all just Republicans, then why are you even here???

Why are you hanging out with us DEMS at "Democraticunderground" if we are all just sell-out Republicans?

You know that is not true...

[rman]

162. i think Nader refers to the Parties, not the voters.

-

[IUBloomingtonLIBERAL]

136. I voted for Nader in 2000 ...

And it looks like I'll be doing it again in 2004.. The democratic party, what a joke...

[Catherine Vincent]

141. Yeah, right. You're probably a bush apologist.

Enjoy your short stay.

[Redleg]

143. Good luck with that Nader thing.

Do you have some specific criticisms of the Dem party or just like to paint with a broad brush?

[Terwilliger]

147. well, it's all or nothig right?

If you have criticisms of the Democratic party and you're a Democrat it matters not, since you'll pull the lever for the Demcrat anyway

How are you different from a partisan Republican again? OH YEAH! YOU'RE side is the righteous one :eyes:

[Redleg]

163. How does your attack relate to my comment?

I was just asking the poster to elaborate on his criticisms of the party.

I certainly do not expect to agree with every position the eventual Dem nominee will have. I do expect to agree much more with that person than with Bush.

[Rockholm]

149. Ralph, please go away.....

[still_one]

160. It is different

People realize that he is irrelevent, and any good he did in the past is now erased, and he will only be remembered for being a spoiler.

I imagine the republicans will throw money at him this time also

[Skittles]

165. he wants Bush back in the White House

it's the only explanation

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

168. Nader helped Gore come as close as he did

Gore's campaign was dead in the water until he partially adopted Nader's rhetoric and abandoned the DLC mantra. Gore went after corporations in his speeches with his "I will fight for you" message.

It was only after this that he pulled ahead of Bush in the polls and remained there until the final days of the campaign season (and pulled ahead just a smidge at the last second on election night)

if gore had run a blah campaign of 'building a bridge to the 21st century" (actually clinton's 96 slogan-gore's was so forgettable that I can't remember it) like he had done for the first half of 2000, he would never have got his base energized enough to come as close as he did in the end

Nader actually halped Gore by making him play to his roots. it's the one thing the terminally-inept donna brazille did right that year.

[mobuto]

169. Huh?

2.9 million progressives voted for someone other than Al Gore. Bush won by 500 votes. Explain to me again how Nader helped Gore?

By all means, vote for Nader or Jello Biafra or anybody you like in 2004, but please don't subsequently complain about the Bush Administration. Its either a Democrat or Bush, and its your choice.

[saoirse]

170. Hey Ralph - hear that?

It's the sound of NOBODY GIVING A SHIT!

Nobody I know who voted for the guy in 2000 would do it again.

I ain't even slightly worried.

Ralph, you know what you can do with your vanity campaign.