Deal reached for auto loans; GOP senators vow to oppose plan

[Bozita]

Source: Detroit Free Press

Deal reached for auto loans; GOP senators vow to oppose plan
BY JUSTIN HYDE AND TODD SPANGLER • FREE PRESS WASHINGTON STAFF • DECEMBER 9, 2008


WASHINGTON -- Congressional Democrats and the White House reached agreement Tuesday night on the outlines of a $15-billion rescue of General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC even as key Senate Republicans promised a filibuster of the draft proposal for not requiring more sacrifices from the UAW.

Lawmakers and administration officials said while the final language of the bill was still being written, the House was expected to take up the bill Wednesday morning. A senior administration official said the bill stiffened the terms for the automakers to get aid.

But Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., warned the Senate could be in session this weekend because of roadblocks from opponents. Although the House could hold a vote in a matter of hours after a deal, procedural delays in the Senate could take several days to overcome, if backers of the rescue can win the 60 votes necessary, including up to 20 Republicans.

Michigan Sen. Carl Levin said the deal would need strong backing to win passage.

Read more: http://www.freep.com/article/20081209/BUSINESS01/81209087

---

It's all about unions, imho.

[ShortnFiery]

1. Yes, more money for "the corporate players" so there won't be anything left for "the people."

The FIX is in ... and there won't be anything left but the soup line, if that. :nuke:

[Triana]

2. I agree. It's all about permenantly busting the unions

once and for all. That's what they're gunning for.

[madmom]

3. Their last great desperate try to bust the unions before they fade away!

[Idealism]

4. Fuck these crooks and their Right to Work bullshit

They want everyone in America to somehow afford to buy shit, yet they don't want us to get paid a living wage. They want people to just shut up and work on Wal-Mart pay, even if you are a skilled worker. They look down on you for not having a white collar around your neck, but they sure don't mind your tax money. Con men, liars, and thieves.

[MUAD_DIB]

10. Have you ever heard of the "Company Town?"

Now America has become just that. Decreasing wages and high credit debt lead to an even greater downward spiral that many just can't get out of.

The only ones who make out are the new Robber Barons.

They should all be dancing in the breeze.


One would think that we would have learned that lesson and not wanted to repeat it.

[Idealism]

11. Credit card debt resulted because wages have been stagnant

Since the 1970s, the mean wages in this country have actually lost ground when you figure in inflation. Where else were people going to be able to afford groceries or gas if not for credit? Yes it has allowed us to live beyond our means, but the reason why we were forced to (yes forced-- who likes paying 22% interest?) use credit cards is because it keeps costing way more to live than how much we get paid to work. This is exactly like Company Town and I see now Wall Street are the new robber barons.

[DLnyc]

5. Gee, why does it take 60 votes to pass the auto bill, but it only took 51 to

put Alito and Roberts on the Supreme Count? I guess Dems are afraid to filibuster to prevent a right-wing takeover of the courts, but are afraid OF a filibuster when they want to pass something good.

[malletgirl02]

6. I think the Democrats should just let the Republicans filibuster.

Also the Democrats need to make sure the Republicans do a real one, they better be there on CSPAN reading the phonebook. I really don't think the Democrats have that much to lose if they let the Republicans filibuster.

[mbperrin]

13. Yes, MAKE them DO IT!

For so many years, we have let them threaten to do it, and that has been just as good.

[IndianaGreen]

7. Shelby and Sessions are getting paid by Japanese automakers in their state

They are as corrupt as Blago in IL.

[Idealism]

9. Alabama spent over $1 billion wooing Mercedes-Benz there

They spent several hundred million on getting Honda, Hyundai, and Toyota. They actually gave Mercedes the entire factory plot space they needed for their plant, no expenses, and offered to train workers for them. Its a whole con game, it was taxpayer money that was spent but thats legal somehow

[jody]

14. Agree but other states made similar offers that were rejected. The only difference is AL won and

others lost.

[Idealism]

16. Other states didn't offer all the things Alabama did

Nowhere near the same amount of money/land/incentives

[jody]

18. Whether other states matched AL's offer is not material. What is important is they made offers that

were similar to AL.

If they had won, the shoe would be on the other foot and you would be criticizing perhaps GA rather than AL.

[Idealism]

20. I'm criticizing hypocrisy

They claim to want free market principles, and in free markets 'companies fail, they don't get bailed out.' Ok, free market means you wouldn't have to pay companies incentives to come to your state, because in a free market they go where is best for them. Its bullshit.

[jody]

21. I agree re countries or states or cities subsidizing businesses to locate in their area. That

however could mean many factories would locate in Mexico or other nations rather than the US.

If the question is whether it is better that cars produced by foreign companies be made in the US with US labor rather than in another country with their labor, I believe most workers would opt for made in the US.

[Idealism]

22. Thats not the point I was trying to make

Yes, you are choosing the lesser of two evils, but why must it come to that at all? Because Republicans have pushed this free market ideology, and with Clinton's help unfortunately, got their wish for "free" trade. The concept sounds nice, but when you have countries like China and Japan who don't play by the rules (two of the more heavily tariffed states in the world) yet they expect us to, its a shitty deal for american workers.

The problem is we depend on too much outside goods because US corporations would rather pay someone $1 a day to do work that is half as good of quality/efficiency than to pay a worker in this country enough to get by on. Profits have come before people and I don't really see an end to this, they've made us spend ourselves dry and will make the little guys yet again pay the price when they close down shop, while the CEOs cash out millions and retire.

Factories already have been outsourced, there isn't many left for them to go to Mexico like you say. If China had enough skilled workers to supplant Detroit, they would've done it. The problem is still quality in many countries developing their industrial base. If China were to produce mass automobiles with better than their current 50% worse defect rate than Detroit, we would all be very screwed.

[jody]

23. You have me confused. Do you support a competitive market or do you support a government controlled

market?

[Idealism]

27. Needs to be regulated

The current hybrid capitalism we have now has clearly not worked. Selective regulation, negotiating one sided trade agreements, and attempts to strip rights in the workplace all need to go. True free market capitalism can't exist in the world, humans are by nature greedy and ambitious-- we will do whatever possible to ensure greater profits. We know this, and it just gets reaffirmed every scandal we hear about, every golden parachute of a CEO who ran the company into the ground yet still gets paid millions. We need to stop trying to achieve perfection and realize human nature won't regulate our market because it is inherently flawed towards the rest of humanity.

[jody]

28. OK "Needs to be regulated". Do you know a country that has successfully accomplished that task? n/t

[Romulox]

38. Errr, EVERY other industrialized country in the developed world? nt

[Idealism]

42. Part of reaching a goal is realizing the years you've spent denying the truth

We have spent decades being told justifications for bad ideas because its the 'free market' way, but we go against our own principles selectively. In a free market, there wouldn't be any hindrances to businesses, like the EPA or bothersome entities like it that make sure we don't dump our pollution into drinking sources just because it would be cheaper than to properly dispose of fit. In a true free capitalist society, there wouldn't be any opposition to mergers and monopolies, because who is the government to tell you how big your company can be? If we would try to shake this philosophy and realize we can't let the wolves guard a sheep pen, maybe we would have progress away from free capitalism and towards a more fair system to the average worker. The average worker is the majority, and isn't democracy supposed to be all about the majority's will?

[jody]

47. Interesting opinions but what country has regulated its businesses to your satisfaction? China? n/t

[Romulox]

49. Germany. nt

[Idealism]

51. I suppose Western Europe

They haven't managed to get screwed in trade deals yet, become drowned in debt like the US currently is, they all have universal health care, and even work less hours per week (with paid vacation time and comparable pay to the US on 5 more hours per work week). But the biggest thing is their promise to education, free college for everyone. They really have their shit together.

[jody]

53. Agree but one might argue that their success has been aided by the US market place for their

products.

Perhaps the US should adopt more protective tariffs to protect our basic industries.

[Idealism]

55. Thats part of the way to recovery in my estimation

Reviving protectionism is the surest way to get wages higher in this country. Since the 1970s they have been stagnant, and its largely to blame for our high public debt.

Honestly, socialism doesn't sound so bad to me, even though people don't like the connotation. What isn't to like between free health care (that ranks better than the US' pay-to-play fiasco), free college for those who want it (eventually providing more tax revenue), and a dash of protectionism?

Oh and I like the idea of a 35 hour work week too lol

[jody]

56. Sounds like a policy worth pursuing. Thanks for the exchange. n/t

[Idealism]

58. Thanks for listening

[Romulox]

31. In a "competitive market", Alabama couldn't even afford to be a member of the Union

Alabama is a net recipient of taxpayer welfare, so can the "competitive marketplace" nonsense, would you?

[jody]

33. "taxpayer welfare"? Perhaps you confuse welfare with federal funds including DoD that are spent in

Alabama at various military installations.

[Romulox]

35. Alabamans are recieving taxpayer money that they did not contribute. That equals welfare.

How can you, admitting this plain fact, lecture anyone about a "competitive marketplace"??? :shrug:

[jody]

45. I don't lecture any more. You should read #33 again and try to understand what I wrote. n/t

[Romulox]

46. In other words, you can't reconcile the Welfare Alabamans recieve with the "competive marketplace"

So you're punting.

[jody]

48. If you have something of substance to offer, please do so. n/t

[Romulox]

50. And the kickoff team takes the field! nt

[jody]

15. Do you have proof Shelby and Sessions are being paid by Japanese automakers? Why single out Japan

when AL has German and Korean auto manufacturers.

Note that in 2009, AL could produce more automobiles than any other state so Shelby and Sessions are acting for their constituents in trying to protect jobs.

[blue_onyx]

24. How does Shelby and Sessions opposing the auto bailout

"protect jobs" for their state? When the US auto industry goes down, so will many of the suppliers...suppliers who also provide foriegn companies. If the foreign companies can't get parts, they can't make vehicles.

The auto bailout is in the best interest of the entire country. If these companies were to go under, millions of people would lose their jobs and the ripple effect would be felt throughout the economy. It would make a bad recession even worse.

Yes, Shelby and Sessions are opposing the auto bailout in favor of the foreign companies in their state but they are mistaken if they think this won't cause more economic pain for their state and the foreign companies. It may benefit the foreign competitors down the line when the economy recovers but it would cause short term pain for the foreign companies too. Shelby is horrible and I would love to see him lose his seat (although I know that's very unlikely).

[jody]

26. If GM, Ford, Chrysler receive a handout and Mercedes, Honda, Hyundai do not, that gives the Big 3 a

competitive advantage and could reduce sales of foreign cars produced in the US.

If the goal is to protect U.S. jobs, then IMO it doesn't matter whether the worker works for the Big 3 or the Foreign 3 if those jobs are in U.S. factories.

[blue_onyx]

29. Competitive advantage? Bullshit!

Foreign countries place high tariffs on US vehicles and limit the number of vehicles US companies can sell in their country. When foreign countries help their auto companies, do they help US companies in the name of "fairness."

What about the millions of dollars in "incentives" these foreign companies got to build plants in Alabama and other southern states.

[jody]

30. I see you have nothing of substance to add. Have a good day. n/t

[blue_onyx]

37. Maybe you have no rebuttal to what I said.

Seems, since your profile said you are from Alabama, you (like Shelby) are more concerned with trying to benefit from the Big 3 going under than protecting millions of Americans jobs.

[Idealism]

43. Umm, but other companies are receiving bailouts

The European Union approved a plan that gives billions to their auto industry, Beijing has set aside money out of there $500 billion plus plan for their automakers, and Japan is mulling a plan to provide even more help to their auto makers (Japan already provides subsidies to Toyota/Nissan/Honda for every car they produce, and additional money for every hybrid/fuel-cell car they make).

[jody]

52. Then should the US fight for international agreements that limit subsidies to a country's borders?

You imply that EU and Japan's subsidies help Mercedes and Honda in the US and that's probably true but don't handouts to Ford and GM help their factories in other countries?

[Idealism]

54. Not to limit subsidies no, thats none of our business

The tariffs that US automakers must pay to sell a vehicle into the 2nd and 3rd largest automotive markets in the world are appauling. Its 22% to import a whole vehicle into china, about 14% to import car parts there. In Japan its not much better at anywhere from 16-21% (depending on emissions). If anyone wants to ship a car into the United States, they pay 2% taxes on it.

Limiting subsidies aren't an issue here, if they want to spend their money helping their industries because they realize the importance of manufacturing- thats all them.

The problem I have is why do we snub our noses at our industrial base, never providing subsidies to them for ANYTHING! Last year Congress passed that $25 billion fund for the Big Three to research and develop greener cars, yet they wouldn't have received any of the money from it until next year if this crisis didn't occur. Compare that to Japan who has given billions to their automakers since they encouraged them to restructure as automakers, and pay them for every car they make thats more environmentally friendly.

Yes the subsidies given the foreign companies help them, so wouldn't subsidies for our domestic automakers help level the playing field?

[jody]

57. I hope Obama will consider ideas like yours for putting our economic house in order. n/t

[KakistocracyHater]

8. the gop is against it so maybe I oughta be FOR it

I have said on this forum that I was against an auto bail-out, but looking at who on the Right is agreeing with me....Let me point out that I want the BOTTOM to benefit, NOT CEOs, NOT THE TOP-they already got theirs (& mine) in Bush's Tax Cuts. I STILL AM SUSPICIOUS, I saw how those wcc at the banks spent working Americans' money, like it was water.

The wealthy are not picking up the slack so, those outsourced jobs really aren't as expendable as Scrooge Factory Owners thought. "Staycations", restaraunts closing, evrywhere I look I see jobs bleeding out of America. Companies cutting back now are making things fall further than they would have; keeping employees in jobs is desperately needed now, add clawbacks to the Banksters GetAway Funds & use the Patriot Act to freeze their accounts if they try to take it out of America, use it too for those accounts outside of America. It's getting far worse than even I anticipated.

[Freddie Stubbs]

17. But Bush is in favor of it

[crazylikafox]

19. Bush is in favor of it because it stipulates that he can name the Car Czar & break the unions

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

12. Suckers

Anyone who believes this "bailout" will save the unions is naive or insane, the "bailout" is nothing more than the federal government providing debtor-in-possession for Detroits Chapter 11 bankruptcies where the contracts and other liabilities will be broken.

The only reason Detroit has not already used Chapter 11 to break the contracts is they don't have the capital to successfully emerge from Chapter 11 and would run a serious risk of being liquidated.

Their still going to do it, just they have suckered you into paying for it.

The bailouts are cultural hegemony in its purest form, convincing the workers that letting the capitalists rob them blind is not only in their best interest but a cause for them to fight for.

[robinlynne]

25. damn, this time I agree with the republicans. (albeit for different reasons.) the only time ever.

[Romulox]

32. Being anti-Labor is the SAME reason the GOP are against this.

:hi:

[robinlynne]

59. the PLAN IS anti labor! nt

[robinlynne]

61. Think you have it backwards.... The PLAN will destroy the unions.

[hedgehog]

34. Sort of reflects my feelings about the Kyoto treaty. My interpretation of it is that

if we'd signed on, we would have been the only country involved actually forced to make changes. India and China were given a chance to catch up to our level of carbon production while the European countries got credit for closing down plants they were already planning on closing!

[The Stranger]

36. The Automakers want 1/32 of what they gave to Wall Street without even blinking.

But the Pelosi Traitor and the Reid Dormat fuck their own and roll over for their GOP masters over and over and over and over and over and over again.

[blue_onyx]

39. Time for some new Democratic leasdership

I hope they both receive primary challengers when the are up for re-election.

[Romulox]

41. Western "progressives" are anti-Labor, by and large.

As long as the leadership is dominated by Western Dems, Detroit will never get a fair shake.

[Romulox]

40. Nancy doesn't have Big 3 stock. But sure as shooting has AIG stock. nt

[Lance_Boyle]

44. FUCK ANY 'DEAL' THAT GIVES CHRYSLER TAXPAYER MONEY!

Chrysler's owners have the money - they just don't want to squander it on that shithole of a company. So why should you and I squander OUR money on them?

Let Chrysler go under. That's what its owners want.

[reggie the dog]

60. fuck the gop the Democrats have a majority

oh wait, the Democrats do not vote in a block too often....