Indian teenager thrown under train for writing a love letter to a girl from a different caste

[Coventina]

Source: Daily Mail

An Indian teenager was kidnapped, beaten and paraded through the streets before being thrown under the wheels of a speeding train - for writing a love letter to a girl.

Manish Kumar, 15, was tortured and killed because the youngster tried to woo someone from a different caste, police in the impoverished eastern state of Bihar revealed.
A mob from her group took offence and targeted the boy and pushed him under the train as his mother begged for mercy.
One man has so far been arrested and a policeman suspended


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1087695/Indian-teenager-thrown-train-writing-love-letter-girl-different-caste.html

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

5. That's mighty white of you.

:rofl:

[sui generis]

7. well that evil is in the eye of the employer

I work for a profoundly conservative organization fairly near the top (I am a shpy!) but one new thing of note in financials is that social "pro-America" conservatives have stopped offering H1-B sponsorships in favor of hiring Americans.

I have not seen that in the case of less conservative organizations who pride themselves on being multi-cultural and inevitably work their sponsorships endless hours for no pay. I can name names.

There are some parts of rural India that don't have television or radio and don't live much differently than they ever have in recorded history, with the exception of train tracks and the occasional airplane flying overhead.

[Barrett808]

19. Interesting, opposing H1-Bs seems a natural position for conservative nativists

I'm surprised it's taken them this long to flip.

[heliarc]

25. Yeah... go figure.

It might be the reason no one trusts them anymore... talk the talk, walk the walk.

[Blue_in_Mass]

43. That's because they are in lockstep with corporate opinion-makers.

They take their cues from the wrong camp. They've confused being pro-American with being pro-American Corporation.

[LeftishBrit]

28. You don't.. This is an impoverished area, with few connections with the West,

[grantcart]

38. I am sure Kevin McVey would agree with you

[slackmaster]

2. Wow, LITERALLY thrown under a train

Great googly-moogly.

[BlooInBloo]

3. It's funny when Indians over here (wonder which caste they're from?) brag about...

how the caste system is defunct. They sound exactly like white folks talking about racism.

[DS1]

6. Yeah, they're full of it

[sui generis]

9. your superpower is the ability to generalize

you should be on the new season of heroes. :eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

10. omg - I would LOVE to be anywhere NEAR the cheerleader chick!!! (drool)

EDIT: Funny freudian typo fixed.

[Endangered Specie]

11. Most are Brahmins (the top) or a step below...

its alot easier (both in their case and in white peoples case) to not see anything wrong when youre 'above it all'.

[BlooInBloo]

13. It was a rhetorical question.

[JI7]

24. in this case the boy was from a higher caste (though not a brahmin)

it has more to do with this being a backwards ignorant part of the country with the lowest education levels than anything else.

and yes, while the caste system is no longer legal, it still is used by people.

[AlphaCentauri]

30. Are those castes like the delta kappa gamma societies? n/t

[JI7]

32. no, they were put in place by the British to keep people in line

the caste system was made illegal by the indian govt after the British left. but it became part of the culture for people and especially in these ignorant backward parts it's hard to get people to change.

[Coventina]

34. Actually, the caste system in India is thousands of years old.

It was already well-established by Buddha's time. He rebelled against the caste system, and that was part of what made his message so popular.

[KakistocracyHater]

63. which buddha-the Indian prince?

There are many Buddhas, & Tara too. The recent National Geographic mag has a great story in it about women who are somewhat like nurse practitioners. It's call the Comprehensive Rural Health Project/Jamkhed. These women stay in their areas & help families get & stay healthy as much as they can, being as poor as they are.

The article(NG) points out that doctors tend to leave India & Africa & go to countries that pay them more money; India's rural areas sound little different than parts of America, I've read about what some rural Americans are saying...not pretty.

[Coventina]

80. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was referring to Siddhartha Gautama

or Shakyamuni - the Indian Prince & founder of Theravada Buddhism.

[BlooInBloo]

37. omg. The stupid fucking shit people feel free to simply make up is amazing.

EDIT: "simply" -> "simple"

[JI7]

42. it's not made up

while the caste system was in place for years it did change with the British who made it more strict . they used it for their benefit while ruling the place. and it was made illegal after they left.

but you were wrong with the assumption this had something to do with higher caste people.

the boy attacked and killed was from a higher caste than the girl he was sending messages to. and none of them are brahmans.

[liberalpragmatist]

68. See response 67, below - nt

[BlooInBloo]

77. "(The castes) were put in place by the British"...

Nothing said in #67 makes that anywhere near true.

[aquart]

45. That is, indeed, breathtakingly ignorant.

Worthy of Sarah Palin, in fact.

[liberalpragmatist]

67. Actually, there's some truth to the statement

Firstly, yes, the caste system has a basis that is thousands of years old. And many aspects of it -- including some of the most discriminatory, such as untouchability -- have been around for a long time.

However, the relationship between different castes, and the relative positions depended greatly be region and by kingdom. Under the British, a single administration governed the entire country. It was under the British that the modern "Brahmin" caste sort of coalesced. There had been high-caste groups throughout the country, but who was "Brahmin" and who was very much open to question. Under the Brits, their sponsorship of an "elite" class of Indians gave rise to the modern Brahmin class.

The Brits also codified a lot of caste divisions and communal divisions, creating separate institutions for the "scheduled tribes" and "scheduled castes" they created, as well as dividing up institutions between Muslims, Hindus, and Christians (for example, Indian cricket leagues were segregated -- not the decision of the Indians -- by religion).

For example:

British Rule

The fluidity of the caste system was affected by the arrival of the British. Prior to that, the relative ranking of castes differed from one place to another.<48> The castes did not constitute a rigid description of the occupation or the social status of a group. Since the British society was divided by class, the British attempted to equate the Indian caste system to the class system. They saw caste as an indicator of occupation, social standing, and intellectual ability.<49> During the initial days of the British East India Company's rule, caste privileges and customs were encouraged,<50> but the British law courts disagreed with the discrimination against the lower castes. However, British policies of divide and rule as well as enumeration of the population into rigid categories during the 10 year census contributed towards the hardening of caste identities.<51>

That being said, this whole debate about the origins of the modern caste system, while interesting from an academic point, are a little irrelevant. However they arose, whether through British administrative practices, longstanding Hindu traditions, or some combination thereof, the point is that caste clearly still has a major (negative) impact in many parts of India. And though I'm not accusing J17 of this, too often, Indians who cite the Brits' role come across as "Blaming the British" for policies that are perpetuated by Indians.

(I am Indian, BTW.)

Of course, for some Indians to claim that "caste doesn't matter" is silly. But it's also important to recognize that how and where caste matters depends a lot where you are. Caste matters some everywhere, but how MUCH it matters, and whether you find people of low caste experiencing social and economic mobility depends a great deal. In major cities, caste discrimination is very much present, but these kinds of problems tend not to be as big. In rural areas, however, caste can be the subject of outright warfare, such as in the state of Bihar.

[JI7]

79. yes, i should have phrased it differently

by saying the system was put in place i didn't mean the caste system as a whole but rather the change it took on under them in order to "keep people in line".

India became independent just about 60 years ago and i don't think many people realize how much the history of indians , especially the ones who are non indian citizens or have family overseas are tied to not just India but Britain as many of these people went overseas during the days of British rule. so it's kind of hard to discuss some of these things without thinking of the British.

(when i was a kid i remember thinking it was weird that some relative that came to visit was from some place in africa or one having an australian accent).

[jberryhill]

22. It's a big country with twice the US population and more diversity

The educated urban folks you run into here are as disconnected with what goes on in rural India as we are from Appalachian snake handling cults.

[LeftishBrit]

29. The Indians who travel abroad probably *do* come from areas where caste matters much less

Official policy in India is in favour of reducing or abolishing the influence of caste; but (like many cultural changes everywhere) this has been slow, and there are parts of the country which are still very reactionary: usually the poorer areas and those most cut off from recent national and international influences. 'India' is not a monolith. In fact, less so than most places.

[AngryAmish]

40. Thank you

I am always amazed at people who go on and on about how much more sophisticated Europeans, Japanese folks, Argentinians, people from country X, are than Americans.

If you meet a person from a foreign country (even in that country) you are dealing with people who would meet foreigners. If they are speaking to you they speak English - which in a non-english speaking country is a sign of a lot of education and cultural exchange. Which usually means sophistication. You are not meeting the guy who watches the French equivalent of the Jerry Springer Show (or maybe just a dubbed version of Jerry Springer since that is so popular in Europe) and doesn't work. If hyou met that guy and generalized about the French you would call them stupid and lazy.

Anyway, the world is a very big place. People are very diverse. Humans like to generalize because that is the way our brains work. We have to avoid that.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. Reminds me of this movie and if this isn't terrorism against their

own populace I don't know what is.

[bitchkitty]

12. What is that movie? n/t

[BlooInBloo]

14. Are you serious?

[bitchkitty]

46. Yes, I am.

I am a hermit with very little media exposure!

[elocs]

15. "V for Vendetta" n/t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

16. Oooh... you are in for a treat. n/t

[heliarc]

26. Interesting lateral meaning...

India is the primary source for harvested human hair. Salons in the states and Europe that do hair extensions get most of their human hair from sellers in India... 25 percent of which are temples where women and men offer their hair as a sacrifice. The Temples then sell the hair to distributors.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

27. Votive hair samples.... interesting twist on an old tradition....

[UndertheOcean]

8. Barbarians

[closeupready]

17. Scumbags.

:mad:

[HopeHoops]

18. No WONDER that tech support call I was on got cut off so suddenly!

[shagsak]

20. That kid should have known better

At least he died with Honor. :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[NoodleyAppendage]

21. So, they killed him for wooing someone from a lower caste? Problem with "marrying up?"

That's what I don't get about this HORRIBLE story. If it were a situation where the boy was from the lower caste and the girl from a higher caste, then it might make some sense. But, what's weird is the MURDERERS were from the girl lower caste and were offended that someone in a higher caste was seeking her out. Seems like that would be a good thing for the girl and the family from which she came.

Regardless...this story reminds me why I have no interest in EVER travelling to India. Fucking barbarians in the wastelands. For all of America's faults, we rarely stoop so low on the basis of social caste.

J

[justinaforjustice]

33. Better Stay Out of the American South and Oklahoma and.....

We have our own, home grown, "fucking barbarians in the wasteland", those who attack gays and people of color and attempt to deprive them of civil rights. It is exactly the same mentality as those described above in India. There are a small percentage of stupid, blindly hating people in just about every country. The U.S. just had one of them running for its vice presidency. So much for American Exceptionalism".

[JI7]

35. maybe not on caste, but Matthew Shepherd, James Byrd

people who were attacked for being gay, black etc.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

39. There are 1 BILLION people in India.

Ass.

If it were a situation where the boy was from the lower caste and the girl from a higher caste, then it might make some sense.

So which is it? This would be okay by you if the castes were reversed? Or are you going to perpetuate your ignorance by slamming an entire country and ancient culture because of the actions of a few?

[NoodleyAppendage]

66. Oh...what a wonderful "ancient culture" that condones MURDER of children.

Let's see...what else is so wonderful. Oh, that's right, arranged marriages. Harshly patriarchal society. Caste system that institutionalizes poverty and restricts social advancement. Yeah, you're right. It's a great place. I'll stay here in the States, but you are free to relocate if you'd like. I'm sure your standard of living would be better over there. Get a clue.

J

[liberalpragmatist]

69. Experiencing a different culture does not mean approving of it

I find the attitude of "I never want to see a place like that" just as ignorant and small-minded as small-town Freepers who won't visit New York because it's "wicked."

I'm sure there is plenty that would shock you if you were to visit India, but seeing it does not entail approval.

And the poster above was entirely correct to point out that it's absurd to generalize about a country with a billion people. Should someone overseas look to, say, the killing of Matthew Shephard and call the entire U.S. a "horrible place"?

[NoodleyAppendage]

71. You've got your opinion...I have mine.

I have no desire to contribute to the national economies (via tourist dollars) of countries that treat women as second-class citizens.

[Blue_in_Mass]

44. It actually makes sense to me.

You are assuming, perhaps erroneously, that belonging to a 'lower caste' automatically means that there is a desire for upward mobility in one's mind.

[Pharlo]

49. If this is an ultra-traditional area of India,

I can see the whole concept of 'dowry' playing a relevant role here. The whole 'dowry' factor is one of the reasons that daughters are viewed as less desireable than sons in Indian society. If a girl were involved with a boy from a 'better caste', his family would expect a larger dowry from the girl's family than the family of a boy in their own caste. It's not simply a case of 'marrying up', it's also an issue of putting the girl's family further in debt to bankroll her dowry.

The Indian government is trying to move the country away from the 'dowry' issue, but there is a strong traditional pull there as well.

[fujiyama]

54. That's a possibility

Bihar is pretty much a failed state in India so when I read where this happened it didn't surprise me in the least. There is frequent ethnic, caste, religious, and class violence. It's rank with corruption.

It's a very sad situation. And yes, dowries and caste discrimination are both technically illegal in India, but old traditions die hard. Some progress has been made and quotas have been implemented throughout India (Affirmative Action basically for "lower" castes). It has to be remembered that some of these divisions have been perpetuated for thousands of years now. It's ingrained in people, especially in villages and tribal areas.

Economic progress helps. So does education and upward mobility and world exposure to outside ideas, media, and culture.

[NoodleyAppendage]

65. Didn't think of that...makes sense, I guess.

Too bad that the family in question will (should) be now shelling out cash to fund their legal defense.

J

[fujiyama]

55. That's a shockingly ignorant statement

In case you don't know, India has over a billion fucking people (pun intended), made of people from many walks of life. Few countries are quite as diverse as India (maybe the US is the only other place I can think of). It's far from homogeneous.

Yes, caste discrimination is a problem especially in villages and tribal areas. It's particularly prevalent in failed states like Bihar which has frequent ethnic, caste, class, and religious/communal violence ruled by extremely corrupt politicians. Also, caste discrimination was technically barred by the Indian constitution, but old traditions die hard. And sometimes things aren't enforced how they should be.

But for all its faults, it has a tradition of being democratic since claiming independence around fifty years ago. It's far from perfect but it has been functional. Considering its history and its population, I'd say that's pretty damn impressive. Especially compared to India's authoritarian neighbors.

And seriously, I'm not even going to go into our own history of slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow segregation. Does Emmett Till ring a bell?

[NoodleyAppendage]

64. It's just so easy to explain away BARBARISM, isn't it?

A 15 year old boy in love was thrown under a train in front of his mother by a MOB. India might be a great place (according to you), but for this village and situation it is a cesspool of ignorance and BARBARISM.

Take your moral relativism and shove it.

J

[fujiyama]

73. Moral relativism? Fuck you!

It's a fucking subcontinent - over a billion people.

I didn't excuse anything. What happened was appalling and the federal government should prosecute the mob responsible. There is no excuse for such barbarism. Yes, I agree it's barbarism. unless you want to actually discuss the issues, I have nothing further to discuss with you.

IF you want to stereotype a billion people as savages, then FUCK OFF. Otherwise, I'm more than willing to discuss the issues here. There is a problem in India, but rather than focusing on it you seem to want to project your own supposed superiority rather than addressing them.

[JI7]

23. the boy was from a higher caste, those who murdered him from a lower one

and this is from one of the most fucked up states in India, Bihar which has many problems.

there are no call centers or outsourcing done in that fucked up part.

in fact the areas with outsourcing don't have these caste problems as much as there are many mixed marriages in those areas. these problems mostly happen in the ignorant backwards part of the country like Bihar.

[slackmaster]

41. The terms "higher" and "lower" are pretty vague

[Fumesucker]

62. I remember that episode...

The black/white men hated each other.. Because one was black on the left half and the other was black on the right half.

Very appropriate statement, that show pointed out the irrationality of much of our prejudice.

[slackmaster]

75. Thanks, it pleases me greatly to see someone get the connection

Live long and prosper, Fumesucker.

[Fumesucker]

78. LOL... The live long part I seem to be doing ok on...

The prosper part is where I'm falling down. :)

The same to you, slackmaster.

[Miss Chybil]

31. What a travesty. nt

[Alter Ego]

36. Dear God.

Fucking insane, some cultures are.

[AnneD]

47. Hubby and I have this conversation often.....

He is 'highest caste' Bram him suitable as priests, teachers, musicians (he is) and cooks. He left India and made his own way in the world so in that way he is western in most matters. If his parents were still alive-we would not be married-I am sure. And every now and again he will say some old caste nonsense- and I :eyes:. But what is really weird-every now and again when we travel-some stranger will ask him to bless their child , do a ceremony or resolve a dispute. And his decision is binding to these folks. It is always interesting traveling with him in India.


I ask why I don't have many prohibitions placed on me when we travel to India. He said that in essence-I fall outside of the caste system because I am a western white woman. I like it because I can travel and talk freely to all people when I am in India-I have no restrictions placed on me. I am like a rock in a river bed-the culture flows all around taking little notice of me other than as a curiosity.

It is changing alot in India and this outsourcing and the money it brings is having astounding consequences in India. India society will be more profoundly changed than during the British occupation.

Edited to add-the original caste system did not infer better or worse. It was based on your occupation in life. As a vegetarian society-some one that handled leather would be an untouchable-you wouldn't want him cooking your food. But a higher caste cook would be OK. Now before you turn your nose in the air and thinking the Indians are barbaric and that is ridiculious....how would you feel about a undertaker preparing your dinner. India was a civilized society for years. This is how they ordered their society. They were bathing daily while Europeans were taking 3 baths in their lifetime. It is not better or worse, just different. Taken to extreme anything can be twisted. This was twisted.

[enlightenment]

59. Have you read

Holy Cow: Beef in Indian Dietary Traditions? It is (as this review states) pretty dry, but very interesting.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9503E7D8153DF934A2575BC0A9649C8B63

[AnneD]

61. No...but thanks for the recommendation.

We have an odd take on the culture-and I have grown to love it dearly-warts and all. Like our American Society-it aspires to better but occasionally falls short.

[and-justice-for-all]

48. No words...nt

[struggle4progress]

50. Some skepticism might be warranted. The Daily Mail is not the greatest news source. Stories

like this regularly appear from time to time as filler in Western media, the intended message always being something like ha! those stupid foreigners. A little searching reveals that "Manish Kumar" is a very common name, so it may be difficult to find info about a particular "Manish Kumar" (just as it can be difficult to track down a particular "Robert Smith"). One should prefer, of course, to use local news sources, rather than those publishing on the alleged incident from thousands of miles away. Times of India reports a story like this, but gives the victim a different name and suggests there may be further unspecified history behind the incident. Samay says that the letter was discovered some time ago and that efforts to stop an ongoing love affair were unsuccessful. The Times (apparently with a Bombay correspondent) treats the matter as a caste prejudice issue. But despite the quotes by Uday Kumar, of the Dalit Association for Social and Human Rights Awareness, in several news stories, the Dalit community site Samatha India hasn't posted any story about the incident as far as I can tell

My point is not to downplay the seriousness of anti-Dalit prejudice in India but rather to point out that this particular story may may be circulating in the West primarily to vindicate our anti-Indian prejudices and so may not be accurately reported here

Some Indian sources:

... Cops identified the victim as Manish Thakurai of Gorar village. Lalita Devi, Manish's mother, attributed her son’s killing to "old enmity". She accused police of keeping quiet while her son was tortured for more than two hours after he was kidnapped ...
Boy thrown in front of train for falling in love
19 Nov 2008, 0057 hrs IST, TNN
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Boy_thrown_in_front_of_train_for_falling_in_love/articleshow/3729823.cms

... The police ... said the boy was allegedly having a love affair with a girl whose family was against it. The affair came to the knowledge of the girl's family when a letter written by the boy to the girl ... was discovered some time ago ...
Boy tortured, thrown in front of running train for love affair
Published: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 at 17:54 IST
http://www.samaylive.com/news/boy-tortured-thrown-in-front-of-running-train-for-love-affair/599515.html

... Manish died because he was a member of the Ravidas community, a Dalit sub-caste that has been confined historically to working with leather ... Another term by which the group is known, chamar, is considered a grave insult ... Three months ago the boy sent a letter “expressing his interest” in a girl from the Dhobi community, another Dalit sub-caste, which has traditionally washed clothes for a living – but is fractionally above the Ravidas in the Hindu hierarchy. The note was discovered by the girl’s parents ...
Boy murdered for writing love letter
Rhys Blakely | November 21, 2008
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5197439.ece


Some other recent news stories about other folk named "Manish Kumar" ...

Lucknow, Nov 20: Three children were killed and two others injured when a motorcycle in which they were travelling was hit by a tanker ... Satish Kumar was returning to Aligarh from Bulandshahar with his sister and her three children ... While three children-- Tanuj (6), Manish (4) and Sandhya (2) died on the spot, Satish and his sister were rushed to the hospital ...
Three children killed in accident
Published: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 at 20:37 IST
http://www.samaylive.com/news/three-children-killed-in-accident/599629.html

Dibrugarh, Nov. 16: The men’s team of Dibrugarh University today entered the quarter-finals of the inter-university (east zone) badminton competition, defeating DDU Gorakhpur University 3-0 at the Bhimbor Deori indoor stadium of Dibrugarh University ... In the second singles, Bidyut Deori defeated Manish Kumar Yadav ...
Dibrugarh men’s team in last eight
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081117/jsp/northeast/story_10120583.jsp

NEW DELHI: With the arrest of three persons, the north-west district police claimed to have solved a temple burglary case that happened in October this year at Model Town. The burglars had stolen three idols of goddesses, including gold and silver ornaments. The police claimed to have seized 23 kg silver and gold ornaments from the three arrested men, Mahender Singh (25), Kulwant Singh (25) and Manish Kumar (30) ...
Temple burglary case cracked
15 Nov 2008, 0156 hrs IST, TNNhttp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Delhi/Temple_burglary_case_cracked/articleshow/3714719.cms
http://www.exchange4media.com/peoplemovement/movement_fullstory.asp?section_id=23&news_id=33076&tag=28020&pict=4

NEW DELHI: Manish Kumar, an eight-year-old boy from Sangam Vihar in south Delhi, disappeared last March. His parents filed an FIR ...
When will these children return
14 Nov 2008, 0155 hrs IST, Shreya Roy Chowdhury, TNN
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Delhi/When_will_these_children_return/articleshow/3710256.cms

Anindo Chakravarty has been promoted as Managing Editor of NDTV India. This key post had been lying vacant ever since the last incumbent, Dibang, had stepped down in August last year. Prior to this elevation, Chakravarty was Executive Editor, NDTV Profit. Following Dibang’s exit, Executive Editors Sanjay Ahirwal and Manish Kumar had been jointly overseeing the day to day operations of NDTV India for over a year ...
Anindo Chakravarty elevated to Managing Editor of NDTV India
Nov 11, 08

Fazilka, October 29 : A 25-year-old man, Sham Lal, was allegedly murdered by four persons near Sadar police station here on Tuesday night. The four accused have been identified as Manish Kumar, Pardeep Kumar and Prem Kumar of Madhav Nagri, and Bunty of City Garden ...
Youth killed near police station
Express News Service
Posted: Oct 30, 2008 at 2356 hrs IST
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/youth-killed-near-police-station/379037/

[JI7]

51. the story is probably true , especially in Bihar

people think India is all the same. but it is very diverse with different ethnic groups, religions etc.

Bihar is one of the worst places in India. in most parts of india that westerners travel they would be safe. maybe they might get some luggage stolen or something but no personal harm. but Bihar is a different place.

the recent religious fighting involving Christians and hindus is in Bihar also. and this story is kind of related to that. people wanting to convert because of the caste issues in the state and then hindus threatening them and harming them over it.

Bihar is one of the poorest states and the people from there regularly go to other states to find work and they are attacked for it also. i think there was a movie being made and some controversy over it in India. there is a lot of racism against the people of Bihar from indians in other states. the govt doesn't seem to care about them as they are uneducated and probably don't vote.

[struggle4progress]

52. So far in this thread you have asserted that the caste system was a British imposition

(though you later backed off and made the more supportable claim that the British merely exploited the divisions) and then asserted without evidence that the alleged victim was of higher caste than the alleged and unnamed girlfriend (which contradicts the limited claims made in at least one of the links I cited, that there was a minor subcaste distinction in the opposite direction). As a result, I'm currently inclined not to regard anything you say as useful, unless I can verify it independently

While I do not doubt that India has real problems with prejudice, I have a certain disrespect for reporting as seen here: the victim's name is not clear, and the victim's mother suggests a longer history of ill-will involved. So what is the point of this story, so carelessly and widely reported? After all, the crime of pushing somebody in front of a train, is not exactly unknown in the rest of the world. Most murders are reporterd only locally. The point of the inaccurate story-telling here can only be to elicit cries of omg! ignorant prejudiced Indians! -- which is really not very useful


Youth Pushed to Death in Subway
Published: December 20, 1989
An 18-year-old youth fleeing three other youths on a fast-moving subway train was pushed to his death in the Fordham section of the Bronx last night, the police said ... http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE4D8103AF933A15751C1A96F948260

Nearly 8 Years Later, Guilty Plea in Subway Killing
Andrew Goldstein, who first faced charges in January 1999.
By ANEMONA HARTOCOLLIS
Published: October 11, 2006
... The man, Andrew Goldstein, acknowledged that he knew it was wrong to shove the woman, Kendra Webdale, 32, into the path of an N train at the 23rd Street station in January 1999 ... http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/11/nyregion/11kendra.html?_r=1

Didn't Like Victim
By Patricia Hurtado and Sean Gardiner | STAFF WRITERS
5:00 PM EST, November 16, 2001
The man who allegedly pushed a woman in front of a subway car in Grand Central Station Thursday night has told police two stories about why he did it ... http://www.newsday.com/topic/ny-subway16,0,7376392.story

Man, 22, Pushed to His Death on Subway Track
November 28, 2005 in print edition A-9
Police said a 22-year-old man died after he was pushed in front of a subway train in Queens. Edison Guzman was arguing with another man on the 52nd Street platform of the 7 line in Queens’ Sunnyside section, police said ... http://articles.latimes.com/2005/nov/28/nation/na-briefs28.3

[JI7]

53. you can easily find local news stories from around the world

the British did not merely exploit the divisions. the caste system did change with them. it became more based on economic standing than it was before. this was based on how things were in their own country.

in the OP it did say the boy was from a higher caste, but regardless of that it would not be ok to murder someone as they did with him.

with the internet it's not hard to find local news stories from many parts of the world.

there ARE ignorant prejudiced Indians just as there are the same types in other parts of the world.

[struggle4progress]

56. So the news accounts are inconsistent: one indicates the victim is "chamar,"

another that the victim is "yadav"

If getting the story right doesn't matter, then one should ask why the story is being retold at all. The inconsistency calls the narrative into question -- but indifference to the inconsistency calls into question the motives of the people who repeat the story

Narratives are retold because they serve some purpose: that purpose can be to communicate facts -- but it is not necessarily to communicate facts

This is not simply a matter of local news being available around the world through the magic of the internet: there are reasons the Western press is interested in running a story about a kid being pushed in front of train in Bihar, if the story can be made into a caste-prejudice narrative ... but is not interested in running stories about the problem of vigilantism in Bihar


New Zealand Journal of Asian Studies 5, 1 (June, 2003): 5-23.
HONOUR, VIOLENCE AND CONFLICTING NARRATIVES: A STUDY OF MYTH AND REALITY
BADRI NARAYAN
G. B. Pant Social Science Institute
... About forty percent of the people living in the Ekauni village belonged to the Bhumihar caste, while the remaining sixty percent included Banias, Koiri, Yadav, Chamar, Dusadh and other lower castes ... http://64.233.183.132/search?q=cache:1aOBN4Yr8HcJ:www.nzasia.org.nz/downloads/NZJAS-June03/5.1_2.pdf+castes+Chamar+Yadav&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=42&gl=us

Seminar #450, February 1997, "The State of Bihar," p. 47-52
Changing images of caste and politics
Walter Hauser
... it has to do with the values, beliefs, and practices across all caste boundaries whether Brahman, Yadav, or Chamar ...
http://www.lib.virginia.edu/area-studies/SouthAsia/Misc/Sss/whcastep.htm

Caste and the City
Shivam Vij
December 6, 2004
... Our ignorance about the difference between a ‘chamaar’ and a ‘Yadav’ was matched by our ignorance about our own castes ... http://www.chowk.com/articles/8437

[JI7]

58. vigilantism is a huge problem in Bihar

maybe that could be it.

but i don't doubt the story about the boy being murdered . there might be confusion on why it happened.

be regardless of why it happened, it was still wrong . and these things seem to be happening a lot in Bihar.

i think people who cling to caste are ignorant.

[treestar]

60. Good information

Murders happen here, with all sorts of motives - it could be just a murder that happened to occur there, with the press trying to get us to judge the culture negatively.

[liberalpragmatist]

70. Bihar is India's Alabama

That's probably too harsh to Alabamans.

It is often said that one of the biggest problems in India is the gaping wealth gap between rich and poor. The gap is actually somewhat exaggerated -- the GINI Index (a measure of inequality) hasn't actually budged over the past 10 years, and India at 35, is actually less than the U.S. and China (a higher GINI index corresponds to greater inequality).

My own feeling is that the bigger gap between India is going to emerge between rich states and poor states. The states along India's West Coast (Gujurat and Maharashtra), while reactionary in their politics (the chief minister of Gujurat is a neo-fascist thug), are fairly well off. The southern states have replacement levels of population and could be at a European standard of living within a couple of decades.

That leaves a belt of deeply impoverished, overpopulated states in Northern India. Bihar is one. It's an awful, awful place, with a living standard worse than Burundi -- much of the countryside is lawless, and there is open caste-warfare in the region plus a Maoist insurgency.

[fujiyama]

74. Good post

Tell that to Noodley and others that believe somehow that one incident makes an entire subcontinent savages.

The ignorance is appalling.

[ohio2007]

57. did you ever see how they "ride trains" in India ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bym9Zds93rA

thats right. the safety record is second to none

well,
maybe not
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esz1553nSyg&feature=related

[MrSlayer]

72. Well that sounds reasonable.

What should they have done? Just let this kid continue his dishonorable courtship and bring shame to his family by lowering their social standing?

Primitives.

[tuckessee]

76. Woo Hoo! Let's invade them! n/t