Bush moved without a transfer

[radfringe]

Bush moved without a transfer
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/7933440.htm
(kansas city star - registration required - FREE)

NEW YORK — George W. Bush left his Texas Air National Guard assignment and moved to Alabama in 1972, even though the Air Force denied his transfer request, his military records show.

The future president did not ask for an official transfer until nine days after he moved to Alabama in May 1972. The Air Force rejected Bush's request, saying the fighter pilot was “ineligible” to move to the unit Bush wanted: a squadron of postal handlers.

Nevertheless, Bush stayed in Alabama until his Texas commanders gave him written authorization five months later to train there. Bush went to Alabama to work on the Senate campaign of Winton Blount.

[theorist]

1. Smirk the Shirk! n/t

[Gman]

2. An early "Who cares what you think?"

"I'm doing what I damn well please."

The government spends millions training him to fly and he just transfers to a unit of postal handlers? Talk about arrogance. This should remove any doubt that he was dodging the draft.

[City Lights]

9. I do what I want.

What we've got here is Eric Cartman for president.

[Say_What]

17. Exactly. Poppy's little AWOL-Boy!

an insult to soldiers everywhere:

Bush on Bush

"I'm saying to myself, 'What do I want to do?' I think I don't want to be an infantry guy as a private in Vietnam. What I do decide to want to do is learn to fly."
Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 1989

"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."
Dallas Morning News, Feb. 25, 1990

"I don't want to play like I was somebody out there marching when I wasn't. It was either Canada or the service. ... Somebody said the Guard was looking for pilots. All I know is, there weren't that many people trying to be pilots."
Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Nov. 29, 1998

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/163815p-143464c.html

[Fla_Dem]

14. Which is sort of a good thing

At least he wasn't over there killing innocent babies.

[0007]

21. No, junior was here jumping over 500 plus innocent men

for the privilege to fly and the fact that junior received much lower scores than most didn't bother daddy one tiny bit.

Which is sort of a bad thing, 'eh?

[tobius]

3. before we get pumped up again with rope-a-dope

http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/003264.htmlWalter Robinson cited retired Turnipseed, of the Alabama Air National Guard, as his source.

But in an interview , Turnipseed states that Robinson's reporting of their conversation was either distorted or based upon his misunderstanding of how the military functioned at the time of Bush's service. For Bush to be "AWOL" or "away without leave," he would have had to have been assigned to a unit and under its command.

Turnipseed states Bush was never ordered to report to the Alabama Air National Guard. He points out that Bush never transferred from the Texas Air National Guard to the Alabama Air National Guard. He remained in the Texas Guard during his stay in Alabama. This was confirmed by the Texas Guard. And Turnipseed added that Bush was never under his command or any other officer in the Alabama Guard.

Turnipseed added that Bush was informed of the drill schedule of the Alabama Guard as a courtesy so he could get credit for drills while in Alabama for his service record in the Texas Guard. There was no compulsory attendance.This was also confirmed by the Texas Guard.
also see-


I refer you to this article in the Chicago Sun-Times, which says:

"in an interview , Turnipseed states that Robinson's reporting of their conversation (in the Boston Globe in 2000) was either distorted or based upon his misunderstanding of how the military functioned at the time of Bush's service.'http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-banal11.html

Here's a related article from the LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/complete/la-021004bush_lat,1,1203929.story?coll=la-home-headlines

"If you're interested in his military records," Turnipseed said, "the facts are that he never belonged to the Alabama National Guard. He was never under my command. No one had the authority to order him to do anything. We couldn't cause him to be AWOL or anything else."

[Paschall]

4. Irrelevant

Shrub's status with regard to the Alabama National Guard is not relevant to the lead article on this thread.

His move to Alabama was not authorized by his Texas command. Period.

[tobius]

5. please cite link

" According to Lloyd, Guard rules at that time required service members to accumulate roughly 50 points in duty time each year.

He said that when Bush was given approval to move to Alabama for the last three months of 1972, it included "permission" to serve in the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group in Montgomery, if he so chose. Bush did not have to perform duties with that unit, but if he did, the time was credited to him."http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/complete/la-021004bush_lat,1,1203929.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[Paschall]

8. Duh

Read the first article in this thread. Shrub moved to Alabama in May 1972. He didn't get authorization for that move until five months later.

But, my oh my, tobius, aren't you quick at finding "evidence" in support of the Smirker in Chief!

[Turley]

10. A little bit of levity

Firstly let me say that I think Bush used family connections to get a cosy spot which kept him out of the war. Secondly I'd like to say that his service record is sub-par, i.e., he did the bare minimum that he had to do to get what we call a "good year".

That being said, it seems to me that the vast majority of folks here at D.U. don't have the foggiest idea how the Reserve/Guard works. Nearly all Guardsmen/Reservist have regular civilian jobs when thay are not drilling. If your civilian job takes you away from your command, you have to either find a unit close by to drill with, or make up the time when you get back home. This is what Bush did. He didn't actually need permission from anyone to move to Alabama to work on the campaign. Sorry but that's a simple fact.

When I was a reservist I found myself in thjis situation fairly frequently and generally made up the drills at my home unit. The difference, of course, is that I was enlisted so someone actually had work for me to do when I showed up for duty on weekends when the rest of the unit was not drilling. I rather suspect that Bush spent his time drinking coffee and shooting the breeze with whoever else was there.

Still, I think we should focus on the fact that Bush was a very, very, below-average soldier and not try to "make up" ridiculous claims of him being "AWOL" or "disobeying orders" etc. I've followed this story fairly closely and believe me, he wasn't AWOL and he did the same sort of thing that thousands of other Reservists and Guardsmen have done, quite legally, over the years. If we push stories which don't add up we end up looking ignorant.

[Paschall]

12. Read the article again

It says Shrub's transfer was "denied." But he moved anyway. Is that something a Guardsman would normally do?

If your civilian job takes you away from your command, you have to either find a unit close by to drill with, or make up the time when you get back home. This is what Bush did.

Not quite. Shrub apparently didn't have a civilian job until he was hired by Blount's campaign in Alabama. (Meanwhile, of course, we can--I think safely--assume Shrub only got the political job in Alabama thanks to Poppy.) And I haven't seen any evidence that he drilled with the postal handlers or anyone at the Alabama Guard, or "made up" the time when he got back home...because he didn't go back home, he went to college. Or do you have other information?

[Turley]

15. *sigh*

I don't need to read the article again as I understood it the first time. Bush requested to change units. This was denied. He moved to Alabama......pay careful attention here.....The Reserve/Guard cannot prevent you from moving anywhere you want to move to. Sorry Paschall, this is just a fact. Been there, done that. If I join a Reserve unit in New York and then decide I want to move to Alaska to look at seagulls, the Reserve/Guard cannot stop me from moving. You don't have to have a civilian job to move. If there's no unit in Alaska, then that's just the way it is.

As for whether or not he made up the drills, the Boston Globe seems to have found a record of his points and that record indicates he had a "good year". According to the article he made up the drills back in Houston. I won't change my assumption that he did so by sitting around drinking coffee but that's beside the point.

The point is, it's useless to rant on about Bush doing something he was within his rights to do, i.e. move to Alabama. We should concentrate on what he did or didn't do which would have actually represented some sort of infraction.

[JohnyCanuck]

19. But what about his supposed commitment to serve for 6 years.

From what you said in your post Turley it sounds like the guard could spend $1,000,000 training you to be a fighter pilot under the understanding that you'll give them a 6 year commitment and then anytime after you complete your training you could say at your own volition, "Sorry guys, I'm moving to Podunk, Iowa and unfortunately there's no ANG unit I can transfer to, so I guess I won't be able to be a fighter pilot after all. Sorry I just wasted a whole bunch of taxpayers' money and time and effort on the part of my flight instructors and all the other ANG support personnel I relied on to get me trained and up to speed, but them is the breaks. Bye, it's been nice knowing you."

That just doesn't sound right to me.

[utopian]

18. Then why were his records scrubbed?

[DemoTex]

16. Lt. Col. Lloyd of TANG got it wrong. Let's dissect his statement.

He said that when Bush was given approval to move to Alabama for the last three months of 1972, it included "permission" to serve in the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group in Montgomery, if he so chose. Bush did not have to perform duties with that unit, but if he did, the time was credited to him.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/complete/la-021004bush_lat,1,1203929.story?coll=la-home-headlines

1. Military organizations don't grant vague "permissions." Military organizations issue clear and concise orders.

2. I have never heard of an officer who was given the latitude to obey an order "if he so chose."
Take your men up that hill, lieutenant!
Naw, I choose not to, sir.

3. What was the point of this nebulous permission if Bu$h had an option of whether or not he performed duties with the 187th TRG of AANG?

4. If he performed duties with the 187th TRG he got credit for the time. And if he didn't perform duty? Oh, never-mind, that's what happened anyway.

Such options in life! It's human nature to take the path of least resistance; the path always taken by George W. Bush. That path is inconsistent with efficient military operations.

[Turley]

20. Well I couldn't access the article

but I disagree with you assertion that military organizations always issue clear and concise orders. In the Reserve/Guard soldiers (and especially Officers) have a lot of leeway when it comes to missing drills and making them up. I moved to Germany and didn't get orders transferring me to my new Reserve unit until a year and a half later. I got paid from my old unit at Ft. Knox even though I hadn't seen the place in over a yaer.

Likewise, I spent some time in Eastern Europe where there were no drilling units. There wasn't much my unit in Germany could do about it if I had to move temporarily. They could make it hard for me to get promoted but they couldn't stop me from moving. Sorry, but in cases like these there are no clear and precise orders. In the active duty there sure are, but not in the Reserves. Just ask any Reservist.

[July]

6. I'm sorry, but it just frosts my

ass that Bush apparently got to make up the rules as he went along while Guard troops and everyone else in Iraq are getting stop-lossed, redeployed there or in Afghanistan, and seeing benefits cuts (and when they get killed, ignored). Oh, yeah, and when they freak out and seek help they're charged with cowardice.

Bush's explanations that have been offered over the years include the novel ideas (only applicable in this circumstance, not to form a precedent, sound familiar?) that you (and by "you" I mean "he") can choose where to show up, skip a required physical because you can't see your personal physician, choose to stop flying, cut a deal to leave the Guard early to go to grad school, get a commission without any of the normal experience that precedes it in every other case, and offer torn points totals, blurry pay summaries, and DENTAL exam records as some kind of official proof of honorable service. (Again, regular soldiers, not to mention the Democratic candidates with military service backgrounds, don't seem to have this weird paperwork problem.) Add in the strange case of the Texas driving record and you have

A STEAMING LOAD OF CRAP.

[Karenina]

7. BINGO!!!

:toast: :bounce: :toast:

[bleedingheart]

11. Just like he is twisting the rules now to suit his needs

[librechik]

13. it's so like him--don't like a treaty? Tear it up! Voting rules? Go around

just as long as Baby gets his way, that's all that matters.

[0007]

22. ..and if baby runs into any resistance daddy & James A. Baker

will come to the rescue.

Who ever decided that junior was gonna be the front man for this crime cabal sure produced a dandy, LOL!!