German State Proposes New Headscarf Ban

[DuctapeFatwa]

The dominant party in the western German state of Hesse on Tuesday proposed legislation that would ban Muslim civil servants from wearing headscarves, a measure that goes further than three other states' proposals to outlaw the veil for public school teachers.

The conservative Christian Democrats' leader in the state legislature, Franz-Josef Jung, argued that the headscarf is a political rather than a religious statement and a symbol of repression. The party, which has a majority in Hesse, hopes to push its so-called "bill to secure state neutrality" through by the summer.

Its 16 states have been divided over whether to ban Muslim teachers from covering their heads in the classroom since the nation's highest court ruled in September that veils were allowed unless existing legislation specifically outlawed them.

Although the court stated that any new laws must treat all religions equally, many in Germany argue, like Jung, that the headscarf is a political symbol. Crosses would be excluded from the proposed Hesse ban, which calls for authorities to take account of "Christian and humanist Western tradition."

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040210_2705.html

[cprise]

1. Crosses aren't comparable

A cross is a piece of jewelry not meant to hide or encumber a person's appearance.

They do not want civil servants to project sexism or religious intolerance while on the job. If its a political symbol, then it should be banned even moreso.

Naturally fundamentalists won't be able to deal with this rule of conduct. But since they don't ask for tolerance of others (quite the opposite), then tolerating them really isn't an issue.

[OneBlueSky]

2. well, I suppose this makes sense if your goal is . . .

to radicalize your country's Muslim population . . . yeah, that's the ticket! . . .

[PsychoDad]

3. Here we go again..

"The conservative Christian Democrats' leader in the state legislature, Franz-Josef Jung, argued that the headscarf is a political rather than a religious statement"

No, there wouldn't possibly be any religious bias here. Sorry Franz, the Hijab is Religious/Cultural, not political..

"Crosses would be excluded from the proposed Hesse ban, which calls for authorities to take account of "Christian and humanist Western tradition."

At least the Germans are being a bit more honest with this than the French... may as well admit bias where bias exists

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. LOL PsychoDad! You snatched the words right off my fingers

Honesty is the best policy. It's a cliche, but it's a true one.

Clear the air, bring things to a head, in many ways it would be preferable to the Amerian insistence that that yellow liquid spoiling peoples' shoes is rain :evilgrin:

[murielm99]

5. This means that Muslims will keep their female children out of school.

We do not need a generation of illiterate women, no matter where they live, or what faith they practice.

Feminists should be jumping on this issue.

[PsychoDad]

6. Muslim schools..

I don't think we would end up with Illiterate women. Islam has a rich histoy of learned women scholars, and Islam itself places a very high value on education for everyone. (of course some "Islamic" cultures are less Islamic than others).

What I do worry about about is that these children will be taught that they are being excluded from the society as a whole by the law. If they wish to be part of the society, they will have to surrender their own self and cultural identity. The society does not wish to embrace them, but would rather segregate them because they do not fit in with the European/Christian norm. (those aims are being clearly voiced by the germans)

This is the sort of breeding ground radicalism loves.

And, I agree, feminists should get on this. A woman should have the right to wear what she wants as part of her cultural, religious or self identity.

[whirlygigspin]

7. a person's religious/psychosis

has no place in public institutions in a secular state.

Good riddence.

I wish America would do the same to born again freaks.

[wickerwoman]

8. So Jewish boys should be forbidden from wearing yarmulkes?

Sikhs should be banned from wearing turbans to work?
Orthodox Jewish men shouldn't be allowed to wear hats indoors?

What's the point of it all except to say that your beliefs make me uncomfortable so either go against them or get out. That's a great model of tolerance.

There are any number of religions that require either men or women to cover their heads as a sign of respect for God. How does someone wearing a hat, turban or a scarf hurt me? The fact is, it doesn't, unless I go way out of my way to be offended.

[Voice_of_Europe]

10. State jobs only! Teachers!

First off the discussion is about teachers and state employees who REPRESENT!!

Teachers duty is to teach your child math, geography, etc...

Maybe teachers should teach how people should treat each other...

Slightly maybe maybe taecher can inform their pupils about religion on a neutral basis... a head scarf is clearly not neutral. And Islam is not one of the state religions...

Hell! I wouldn't even want teachers to teach my child Christianity! Who knows what they tell them about?!

Religion should be a thing that goes from parent to child or belongs to church, not school.

[PsychoDad]

12. Tell me, please,

How a teacher wearing a cross, star of david, or a head scarf is teaching their religion?

I guess a teacher wearing red is teaching communism? Mrs O'Riley is wearing green today, so she must be teaching Roman Cathoicism? Mr Radcliff is wearing a black turtle neck and pentagram, so he's teaching satanism? And Mrs. Rabin, the lunch room lady, is wearing a star of David, so she's forcing radical zionist ideology on everyone who gets a peice of pie.

And thus, by this logic a teacher wearing no symbols, in a neutral grey suit could be considered to be teaching atheism.

This line of logic is false and rediculous.

This has nothing to do with teaching religion in schools. I am as against that as anyone. What this does have to do with is the freedom to express yourself and to practice your beliefs.

[wickerwoman]

13. I know who the discussion is about.

I am a teacher and know that there is no such teaching anything from a neutral basis.

The best you can do is be honest about your bias and respect everyone elses. Isn't it better for a Islamic or Jewish or Christian teacher to put their real position out there than to pretend it doesn't inform their outlook on life? Wearing or not wearing a scarf or a turban don't have the blindest affect on how most people treat others.

[PsychoDad]

11. Thankfully

We have a constitution that protects from radical fundamentalists of all brands.

[Voice_of_Europe]

9. no no...

Not allowed...

police will come to your home nd pick your child up and bring it to school.
Heavy fines for parents!!

[rman]

14. All of Europe joining in suppression of 'islamists'

France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany.
Strange arguments such as "veils are bad so let's ban headscarfs" and "the state must be neutral wrt religion so let's prohibit certain expressions of religion".

Way to create an bigger problem then we already had. Way to set up one part of the population against another - a tool for control of the masses.

"There's a good reason why nobody studies history, it just teaches you to damn much" - Noam Chomsky

[Spentastic]

15. Er?

"the state must be neutral wrt religion so let's prohibit certain expressions of religion"

Now explain to me as an ardent secularist why this is wrong. Although I would of course forbid ALL expressions of religion within state institutions.

Outside state institutions people can do whatever they want.

On edit. I don't like this law as it is discrminatory.

[Kellanved]

16. huh?

Aren't you generalizing a bit too much here?
We're talking about one law in one German state; the constitutional court will be called to decide and, unless it does another partisan (:grr: ) decision, this law will probably be sacked.
The French law is not comparable to this one, France has a very different approach to Religion than Germany.