'Straight tickets' in North Carolina don't vote for president

[Robbien]

Source: AP

RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) — Election watchdogs fear that a long-standing feature of ballots in North Carolina could lead thousands of straight-party voters to mistakenly fail to vote for president and possibly produce a replay of the postelection battle in Florida eight years ago.

Since the 1960s, North Carolina ballots have allowed voters to cast a straight-party ticket — Democrat, Republican or Libertarian — by checking a single box, but state law requires voters to separately mark their choice for president.

On the ballot, the straight-party vote option appears below the presidential selection, and counties have included explanations and warnings that voters must mark the White House race separately. Nevertheless, election watchdogs fear hurried voters might ignore the explanations, see the straight-ticket option first and assume it includes a vote for president.

"The policy itself needs to change, but at this point we need to be reminding voters to be prepared and follow directions," said Bob Hall, director of the advocacy group Democracy North Carolina.

An Associated Press review of 2004 election results shows about 1.5 percent of ballots in North Carolina did not contain a presidential vote — higher than the 1 percent national average of so-called undervotes.

Read more: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jp--IEoLjpYzug2IA6lVWMNv_90wD943MVI80

---

Read your ballots carefully people please.

[amyrose2712]

1. K...

[FLyellowdog]

2. We need to take on voting revision as our next cause.

It shouldn't be this difficult to cast a vote. Who writes these rules/laws and how can we change them so that voters aren't disenfranchised? The current system is simply unacceptable.

[nyc 4 Biden]

4. I agree.

www.velvetrevolution.us is leading the charge.

[FLyellowdog]

10. Thanks for the link. Excellent site.

[Robbien]

6. Voting is handled by SoS's. Usually problems arise when the SoS is GOP

I was just reading where the Indiana SoS cut off voter rolls seven days BEFORE end of registration. He (the man who said of Dems and Blacks 'Who is the master and who is the slave') said he didn't trust all those late registrations so the late registrations will be handwritten in to the official voter rolls. He wants to go over them with a fine tooth comb before adding them.

[TalkingDog]

7. Don't know about other counties

but Iredell paper clipped a notice to EVERY ballot explaining that if you vote a straight ticket, the presidential vote is not included.

Some places are attempting to address the situation.

[tledford]

44. In Guilford County, signs are EVERYWHERE in the voting places...

...and, since we use touchscreens with paper tape audit trails, the volunteers EXPLAIN it to you verbally before they actually even load the ballot for your precinct so that you can begin.

I don't seen how it would be POSSIBLE for anyone not to understand this, based on my early voting experience last Monday. (And in 2004, and in 2000, which were exactly the same, except the touchscreens were monochrome instead of color. Sheesh.)

[1Hippiechick]

30. Absofeffinglutely! WHY is the main voting day on a WORKDAY? If legislated, it needs to be changed

imo. People should NOT be expected to stand in line for HOURS on a WORKDAY to vote, and this has historically happened in precincts with high AA demographics. Many people are paid by the hour, and time away from work to vote represents loss of income!

I am taking a day of vacation to canvass on the 4th; however, if I were working IN a precinct in a non-partisan capacity, it would be counted as "community service" time, and I wouldn't have to use leave. I think that's a double standard, personally.

And this BS "purge" has always historically "purged" democratic registrants--again in districs with high AA voters. It's ALL BS, aimed at controlling the election outcomes to favor the RepubliKLAN party!

[AnAnonymousDemocrat]

52. Absolutely. It's ridiculous that we don't have a national standard for ballots nt

[bertman]

53. We need to take on READING COMPREHENSION as our next cause.

It is NOT DIFFICULT to cast a vote. It is incredibly easy. But you have to read the instructions in order to get it right.

It's the dumbing down of America. I see it every day at work. People THINK they know how to do stuff so they don't bother to read the directions. Then they screw up and start blaming somebody else. Disgustng.

When you're voting in a national election it is absolutely inexcusable that you do not take the time to read the ballot before you vote.

And, yes, I am a North Carolinian and I did vote for Obama. First.

Just like the directions said.

[demoborn47]

3. jeeeeezus

H christo..... Not only do we have to worry about a stolen election but these arcane laws, that the people in their own state don't even know.

Do not leave your voting booth until you have voted for everyone!!!

Hope '08

[dysfunctional press]

5. straight ticket voting is generally supposed to be a vote for everyone.

we used to have it in illinois, but the downstate and collar pugs managed to get rid of it after taking a pounding against clinton, iirc.
i for one, don't generally vote in every section of the ballot- for instance, there are usually lots and lots of judges whom i know nothing about.

[JBear]

8. OK, a few commnets..

First of all, the presidential race is before the straight party ticket option on the ballot. There are warnings posted on the voting cubes as well as on the ballot itself. I do realize that people may miss this, but it is not for a lack of trying to make it perfectly clear!

Note also that the judge races are non-partisan so they require separate marks as well. I personally find it scary that people don't go out and learn about their judges. Just read Grisham's book "The Appeal" to remind yourself about the importance of judges in the balloting process! Bowmore doesn't exist as such, but it is clearly a case that has happened over and over and over in our history. The revolution in policy doesn't stop with the presidential race.

:bounce:

:popcorn:

[FLyellowdog]

11. Referencing posting signs with directions...

I teach a weekly workshop that requires participants to sign-in. I post a sign on the door, tape a sign to a chair that people have to walk around to get into the room, the slide on the projection screen says "Don't forget to sign in" and every handbook has a sticker saying the same thing. Well, guess what? Every week I'll have at least 3 or 4 people who have to be reminded to sign in. People just don't pay attention! :banghead:

[enlightenment]

15. I pass around a sign-up sheet every class

I don't collect it until the end of class and ask that it be passed around at least twice, if not three times before I even allow it to lie fallow on someone's desk.
There are ALWAYS at least a couple of student's who fail to sign the sheet - since I know most of them by sight, I'll ask them the next time class meets why they didn't sign (attendance is a percentage of their grade).

"umm - I didn't realise I needed to sign it."
"I didn't know what it was."
"Oh, that paper? I just passed it forward . . ."

I had an Econ professor in college who gave a test. The instructions at the top of the first page were about a paragraph long. Embedded in the middle of the instructions was the following line:

"Write you name on this paper. Answer questions one through twenty-five. Do not answer questions twenty-six through forty. If you answer any question beyond question twenty-five, you will fail the test."

Over 60% of the class failed the test.

[FLyellowdog]

18. I LOVE IT!!!!!!

[1Hippiechick]

31. OK. Here in NC, full-page ads are run, showing which candidates to vote for if you want to vote a

straight-party ticket--be it RepubliKLAN or Democrat.
AND, ppl have GOT to come to understand that the local votes are where the REAL power is. It starts from the bottom UP, not the top DOWN. It's going to take ALL of us working together, and change is not going to come quickly - it's a process that will occur over time, BUT it is going to take COMMITMENT to the CAUSE of what is trying to be accomplished.

I'll raise your popcorn. :)

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[tledford]

46. AND IT HAS ONLY BEEN LIKE THIS FOR FORTY-EIGHT YEARS. eom

[progressivebydesign]

9. How can we get the word out to everyone? Are they including this in call scripts??

HOw about signs and flyers all over town? This is very troubling..

[Robbien]

16. It can't be just NC. How can one percent of the entire country's ballots

not have voters voting for everyone on the ticket but not a president?

[newtothegame]

12. Crazy n/t

[ObamanationYes1]

13. It is good to get this information out to everyone, but this is a good set up for NC

This method has been in place a long time and is in place to protect Democrats. I think everyone needs to be properly informed, but this method does not need to be abandoned.

[DS1]

14. Jesus, a first semester programming student could program that check

stupid pseudo code for brevity

button.submit.onclick(
If (checked) "All Dem" or "All Rep" or "All Other"
and not(checked) "President")
alert "Pick a President";
)

[Ms. Toad]

25. It's not the code,

It is the law (which varies by state).

Some straight party votes override everything else, some don't. Some count for the entire ballot, some only for selected offices. The code has to implement the law.

[Overseas]

17. K&R for the electronic election fraud file. //nt

[ObamanationYes1]

19. This is in NO WAY Election Fraud. It is the law and it is a good law

N/T

[EFerrari]

20. Ken Blackwell, is that you?

[ObamanationYes1]

22. What a Jerk. I happen to be from NC and am 50 years old.

I know why it is this way, and YOU DO NOT. NC is very conservative.. Even our Democrats are conservative. As you can see from History NC almost always go GOP for President, yet we almost always have a Democratic governor, SoS, etc... What if everyone who voted for President all these years voted straight ticket based on the Presidential Pick? We would have all Republicans in State and Local Government.

Get some information before you INSULT!

[EFerrari]

23. This law and similar ones are confusing to people and they wind up

not casting their vote for their choice for president.

They also wind up being easier to steal electronically.

Have a nice day!

[ObamanationYes1]

24. If they are not casting their vote for President, it is not our procedures

at fault, nor the fault of our SoS. This is in place to protect Democrats in NC. Cry foul all you want, but it will not change in NC.

Folks need to vote responsibly. There is a TON of information and plenty of folks to help.

I still find your comment insulting and I realize that you do not care.

[EFerrari]

27. Placing the blame on voter error is a standard Republican response.

The fact is, people are not getting their choice.

That means, Democrats are not being protected.

[ObamanationYes1]

29. You fight like a Republican

...without proper information and without the facts. If you live in NC and want this to change, go ahead and try. You will be loudly shouted down by Democrats. Look at the history we have of NC's votes for President and the coat tails that went with those votes before the process was changed to its present state.

[EFerrari]

32. The Democrats are way behind the curve when it comes to election fraud.

Their shouting is self-serving, more about their power than about our votes being counted, even as much as it would benefit them to pay attention.

This isn't about a political strategy. This is about getting votes counted, phyically, materially.

Maybe you could, as I have for the last four years, spent some time in the Electin Reform forum. There are very active people from NC there.

[ObamanationYes1]

34. Maybe you could, as I have for the past 50 years,

spend some time in NC. We will NOT mess up our chances of keeping the Democratic Party strong in State and Local Governments.

[EFerrari]

35. And that is beside the point when this thread addresses

how voting straight ticket will jeopardize your presidential pick.

This is not only a problem in NC but in other venues, too. Really, look at the bigger picture.

It's a set up for Democratic voters that has to be renegotiated.

[ObamanationYes1]

36. State - by - State reasons for election laws

It can't be standardized....Comparing Apples to Automobiles.

I know you cannot be convinced, so I will no longer try. Trust me, NC will not change this policy.

Funny thing, this thread contains a huge polictical ad by Elaine Marshall our Democratic SoS. Elaine LOVES this policy.

[EFerrari]

37. State by state election laws need to evaluate state by state

the equipment that counts or that doesn't count votes. States like NC.

And, no, I can't be convinced because I've seen too many Demcratic voters be ripped off under the aegis of this practice.

[ObamanationYes1]

40. Having a different philosophy and different point of view is

a far cry from calling someone a name like Ken Blackwell.

[EFerrari]

42. Please go read something about how these machines work

when you vote a straight ticket and before you encourage anyone to do it again.

[ObamanationYes1]

47. UHMMMM, I haven't encouraged any one to vote straight ticket

I simply explained WHY the presidential candidates are listed separately and btw, they are FIRST (before the option to vote a straight ticket.) Also, I know how the machines work.

[struggle4progress]

43. Hi sfexpat! We NC Democrats always try hard to educate people about this peculiarity

of straight-ticket voting in NC

I don't like the law much myself, but the explanation you were given previously is (at least in broad outline) correct:

the South was solidly Dixiecrat until the civil rights era; Kennedy carried NC in 60 and Johnson carried NC in 64, but the 64 election split the solid South -- and Johnson's push for civil rights legislation cost Ds the Dixiecrat coalition, so that beginning with Nixon's 68 campaign, the Dixiecrats fled into the Rs; to maintain local D control, NC separated the top-of-the-ticket from straight-party voting, minimizing down-ticket effects of the Presidential election. Since Nixon, NC has gone D for President only once, with the 76 Carter run. On the other hand, state government is often in (moderately conservative) D hands, with a Congressional delegation split about 50-50, and local government party affiliations often reflect the congressional district

That may sound odd to you, but compared to local politics it is remarkably sane: here in my town, the Ds are firmly in control and Rs often run no opposition for local government, so local elections are frequently determined by the primaries; therefore many Rs do not register as Rs -- so that they can vote in the D primary and have a voice selecting local government. In my (conservative) precinct, nominal Ds outnumber nominal Rs 2-to-1 but Rs outpoll Ds 2-to-1 in the congressional and state races; fortunately, those folk are overwritten by the town in general, which reliably sends Ds to the general assembly and congress. There are really some smart folk here: IIRC Bob Hall, quoted in the OP article, is a MacArthur genius grant awardee

Voting machines can, of course, be a problem: local government and the local state delegation are well aware of the issue, but touch-screens are used elsewhere in NC. People have been fighting that fight

:toast:

[ObamanationYes1]

48. Thanks for helping me explain. Also, you are correct to bring up touch screens.

I am in Wake County and we "connect the line" for a scanner to read our votes.

[struggle4progress]

51. Glad to put in my 2 cents. And let me add that IMO sfexpat is a great DUer.

[EFerrari]

55. OpScan can be manipulated just as touch screens are.

Good grief.

Your system is set up for Demcratic votes for president to be flipped or go uncounted.

You're thinking in political terms when this is a tech issue. They are ripping off your votes.

[EFerrari]

54. Sigh. I don't need to be given an explanation. I heard it years ago

and it doesn't address the problem of counting votes.

This is not about my supposed ignorance of NC but about how your voting equipment is manipulated.

It's not that the machines CAN be a problem. It's that they ARE a problem.



/clarity

[struggle4progress]

57. A week out, there's not diddly we can do about existing equipment: many of us

have made an effort to educate the general assembly about the touch screens (which many counties here do still use despite such effort) -- and while you are of course correct that the op-scans could also be misprogrammed, they at least provide ballots that can be recounted or hauled into court if necessary

NC looks like a squeaker this year, and an NC win for Obama probably means an early night: so a number of people will be watching with great interest

Since Obama recently added hundreds of paid staff here, I don't think the national campaign is indifferent to NC. Lots of experiencred local folk also look at outcomes and will have a good intuitive idea if the numbers look wrong

Until next Tuesday, all energy goes to GOTV. After the polls close, lots of folk will still be paying attention. If we seem to lose by a narrow margin, there will be considerable pressure to sort things out

[EFerrari]

61. I hope you all have the support you need!

Good luck!


:hi:

[benld74]

21. NEITHER DOES SAINT LOUIS MISSOURI

[ThePowerofWill]

26. Yeah, i told a few today.

I did/do not care for it, but they did send out mailers explaining this specifically. I made sure my aunt and lady friend who are voting tomorrow knew this for sure.

[Ms. Toad]

28. Cross posted in North Carolina forum, I hope? n/t

[1Hippiechick]

33. NC has an AWEsome site: www.democracy-nc.org - here is the link re Straight Party voting

http://www.2008electionconnection.com/

[mwooldri]

38. This is when DREs could be a good thing...

... personally I say get rid of them and get rid of this "straight vote" malarky...

My wife knew about the vote for president separately, and I have never seen a DRE in action here, but I can see this argument for DRE - the first screen pops up with the Presidental ballot - forcing a casting of a vote for this slot first. THEN the screen pops up prompting "straight party ticket vote". My wife did tell me she did get to review her votes before hitting submit and she didn't experience any flipping.

[truthisfreedom]

39. I don't see how this could help McDisenfranchise. His voters are far more stupid than ours.

That makes them at least twice as likely not to follow instructions.

[EFerrari]

56. When was the last time a machine miscounted a Republican vote?

[slay]

41. Just got a call from the Obama people here in NC which told about this as well

And it was NOT a robo-call, but some nice woman who had come down from New York to NC to help the Obama campaign here. She said to let everyone that I could know that you HAVE to vote for Prez seperately if you vote a straight ticket here in NC. Glad to see them getting the word out to people. Truly inspiring.

[wvbygod]

45. straight ticket voting feature should be illegal

We elect people, not parties. If we are going to have a feature for party then we need
an option to vote by gender, age, race and any other choice voters decide they want.

That, and it's just plain lazy. Bad people can sneak in if nobody knows who they are.
I think it happened in Germany.

[Dr. Strange]

59. Agreed.

Know who you're voting for and cast your vote for the person.

[nc4bo]

49. Sigh....The pukes are stealthily telling Dems to vote the straight ticket. LIV are getting confused

they're hearing one thing from Dems but when they arrive at the polls or when curbside voting, are being told something different.

Pukes are trying to steal every NC blue vote they can.

So now Dems are outside the polls asking everyone if they're voting D and if they answer yes, do everything short of dragging them over to the table to pick up a sample ballot.

[Seen the light]

50. This was breaking news..........back in the '70s

Today? Not so much.

[dweller]

58. heard a radio news report on this yesterday

that stated in NC 2004 election some 90,000 ballots cast had NO vote for President.

i guess that was the 1.5% mentioned above.
dp

[struggle4progress]

60. When I voted, the poll workers were explaining this issue every time they handed out a ballot

[marions ghost]

62. Right there--90K with no vote for prez in 04

should be enough to end the practice in NC or anywhere else. End. Over. Done.

WHATEVER it was instituted FOR, it. is. not. working.

Gimme a break.

How many other states have thousands of ballots with "no vote for president?" The MAIN reason people go is to vote for president (compared with off-year elections).

No argument FOR this obsolete practice makes sense any more.

It's the 21st century. Can we all grow up now? Can we have a real voting system that actually works for EVERY voter --- and not just the privileged few? Can we have a standardized system that protects the voter from this kind of BS?

Sheeeesh. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

All of my relatives live in NC, VA or FL....I know about how backward voting laws are around these parts. It's all calculated to make it hard to vote so insiders have more control and less accountability. It's designed to keep people out.