Honda quarterly profit down 41%

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

Source: International Herald Tribune

Honda Motor, the second-largest automaker in Japan after Toyota, said Tuesday that fiscal second-quarter profit fell 41 percent as vehicle demand in the United States plunged and the yen gained against the dollar, eroding the value of exports.

Net income was ¥123.3 billion, or $1.3 billion, for the three months ending in September, compared with ¥208.5 billion yen a year earlier.

Sales fell 4.9 percent to ¥2.83 trillion.

Read more: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/28/business/28honda.php

---

Oh boy. Hang on.

[WriteDown]

1. I will await the "they deserve it!" comments that....

GM seems to get daily. Maybe Honda will be the one that dies out. Oh, the delicious irony. Serves their non-union selves right.

[maxsolomon]

2. all the car companies "deserve it"

GHG emitting personal transportation & auto-dependant sprawl are ultimately unsustainable. americans will buy fewer vehicles in the future when gas goes back up (and it will). a consumer retraction like this quarter is a portent that they should heed. immediately.

we need high speed rail.

[WriteDown]

3. High speed rail....

Is not going to be able to go everywhere. It is a good addition, but not a solution.

[maxsolomon]

5. the point is that MOST people don't need to go EVERYWHERE.

but due to our development pattern since ww2, everyone thinks that's a right - and they sure don't hear any different from Honda, GM, the GOP, or for that matter, any Dem but Al Gore.

auto-dependent sprawl has no future at $4/gallon. if cars double their mileage, to 50, 70 mpg, people will cling to them longer, but eventually, they'll only be used when neccessary, not for a 1/4 mile trip to buy smokes at 7/11.

America needs to WTFU & realize that Europe isn't a socialist hell - trains, buses, trolleys, light rail, subways - that's an ok way to get around a city & a region (people in Chicago, Boston & NYC already know this). last fall in Germany, i went from Heidelberg to Mannheim to Bad Durkheim, back to Mannheim, to Weinheim & finally back to Heidelberg, all in a day, didn't get in a car, & it cost me about $10 at a crappy euro exchange rate. about a 50 mile RT.

[WriteDown]

6. So you want to limit peoples travel?

If you are ready to institute the type of heavy handed law and immigration enforcement that Germany has then you can contain the people to the cities or their small villages. There are many people who do not want to live in crime-infested cities though, especially those with children who want simple things like a backyard. If you were to try to institute wide use of high speed rail in the US, you would also have to liberally apply eminent domain as you would need to make a lot of space for the rail lines to run.

[NickB79]

9. If "heavy-handed" immigration laws prevent the deaths of hundreds of millions through global warming

Then yes, I think a lot of people would accept that. Same with using eminent domain to build rail lines.

[WriteDown]

13. When your property is being seized to build this brave new...

world then you may feel differently. Just look at the Kelo decision for some reference.

[tama]

17. Property is theft

to begin with, so who gives a shit about your "views".

[WriteDown]

18. You have got to be kidding....

Property is something people have longed for since the beginning of time. A place to hang your hat and to raise your children. Most people love what they call "home."

[tama]

60. Not

Americans, the most "Christian" nation, so it seems, will be the last ones on Earth to admit and realize that greed and selfishness are indeed... mortal sins. Greed and selfishness IS the true American religion.

[WriteDown]

71. Haha.....

Considering that every people who ever existed had the concept of property, that is a pretty weak argument. Do you not have a home?

[tama]

78. Not true

that every people who ever existed had THE concept of property. That is pure unfounded dogmatism.

PS: and no, I don't have a home. Or I have several homes. Or where ever I am, that is home.
Or let's cut the bullshit: my home is in my heart.

[WriteDown]

87. So go ahead and name some cultures...

Unless you want to go totally tribal where men and women have very defined and separate rolls. Were those the good ol' days?

So are you typing from a hut in New Guinea?

[tama]

88. "Tribal" is the way n/t

[WriteDown]

90. Then you should be at home....

Having children and preparing meals.

[tama]

92. Got two

fed them.

[WriteDown]

93. Hopefully, they are male. nt.

[tama]

94. Yup. nt.

[msallied]

37. I feel like I just walked into an Orwellian vacuum.

[NickB79]

68. When your property has turned to blowing dust as a result of this no-action world

then you may feel differently. Just look at the plight of Australia's farmers for some reference:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/11/071108-australia-drought.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/australias-epic-drought-the-situation-is-grim-445450.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/3246178/Australia-bans-word-drought-as-too-upsetting-for-farmers.html

[WriteDown]

72. They are just experiencing some dryness....

If I was from Australia, I would be more concerned with my neighbor China's plans to open a power plant a week than GM.

[NickB79]

114. LOL, I think you forgot the sarcasm tag there

"Dryness"? 6 years of record-breaking drought is just some dryness?

"This parrot isn't dead; he's just pining for the fjords."

:rofl:

[WriteDown]

115. Read up...

Australia has banned the word "drought."

[NickB79]

116. I know. That was the third link I posted in my reply to yours earlier

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/3246178/Australia-bans-word-drought-as-too-upsetting-for-farmers.html

[WriteDown]

117. Nice....

Then you know I was just using my dry sense of humor.

[msallied]

36. Wow. Are you fucking crazy?

Fringies like you, left or right, are part of the problem, not the solution.

[NickB79]

67. Not crazy. I just don't enjoy the thought of entire countries under water

And the world's breadbaskets turned to deserts by climate change.

I hear starving refugees are a real drag on property values :eyes:

[DainBramaged]

10. Don't bother, his solution to all of our problems is rail

:hi:

[tama]

16. I do

Let's limit the people's travel to walking, biking, horse riding, rail and sailing with the wind. Electric cars optional, for only most essential use. No any travel with use of fossile fuels.

[WriteDown]

19. Perhaps you should give up using your computer...

to help limit the pollution.

[tama]

61. Don't worry, I will

but in the meantime, how does eating away the future of the children taste to you? :)

[msallied]

38. Who is the "let's" in your totalitarianist scenario?

[tama]

62. It's not totalitarian

it's common sense. So who is who is anyone with common sense and heart in the right place.

[WriteDown]

73. And who is that?

Sounds like you'll need some sort of Central Planning Committee.

[tama]

79. Die-off

will take care of those who cannot adapt. So no, I don't need any sort of Central Planning Committee. Many might need that, though.

[WriteDown]

80. Considering that you are still using a computer...

made from parts made of oil and using fossil fuels, it sounds like you will be one of the ones caught in the die-off. That's been tried before you know. Didn't work out too well.

[tama]

82. No worries

I'm not interested in my individual survival, or any survival games of life-boatism - this thing is about systemic Karma, there are many levels in God and in most of them, individuals don't matter much.

But as long as I'm here and this machine still works, why not share these views and experiences with others. Who knows, someone might even benefit from them. :)

My "real life" is allready elsewhere, not spending anymore much time on computer.

[WriteDown]

84. Survival is built into every living organism

I have to believe that there is a reason. All of this is your real life. Unless of course you are astral projecting.

[tama]

89. Natural "survival" instinct

is automaton, it does not have to be consciously attempted and reasoned, it just happens. Instinct surpassed by parental instincts, for example. Ego-preservation and fear of death are different issues, very little if anything to do with survival instinct.

And no, not astral projecting - at least in the strictest sense. Not my cup of tea :)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

22. Jesus tapdancing christ there are so many RW strawmen in that statement I don't know where to start

I'll just pick this one: Cities are not the scary crime-infested dens of iniquity that conservatives and the MSM have made them out to be.

For the sake of our planet and the continuation of our species people in the U.S. need to accept the fact that sustainable development necessitates people being concentrated in urban centers. Sprawl kills.

[backwoodsbob]

25. so you want to FORCE me off my land

and FORCE me to live in a city?

Just for the sake of argument here skippy,who is going to farm?You know,that shit you eat to stay alive.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. Farming??!? Are you fucking kidding me.

In case you hadn't noticed over 95% of the country doesn't farm for a living.

And no, Sparky, no one said anything about "forcing you off your land". So you can go back to polishing your gun rack. :eyes:

[CRF450]

42. Thats a fucked up attitude.

"Go polish your gun rack"?? Come on, a big number of us rural people are not fuckin rednecks. I myself live in a house thats far away from several others and almmost 20 miles from the city. Ironically I'm surrounded by rednecks but I still prefer my location compared to living in the city.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

45. I'm sure you'll love it when the exuburban sprawl reaches you then.

I mean, you are just eagerly anticipating those cookie cutter McMansion developments, strip malls, and Walmarts that are going to pop up in your rustic hamlet, aren't you?

Sprawl kills.

[CRF450]

50. With the way the housing market is, it deffanetly wont happen anytime soon

But in the last 7 years a trailer park has popped up on a horse shoe shaped road close by my dad's house. Half of it had houses that were already their, the other half was a field and 15 years ago it was a dirt road. Houses are popping up about a half mile from mine. Though heres my location situation, my house is about a quarter mile from the road and surrounded by fields. Their is one house thats close by way off the road too, but its been abandoned, and the current owner probably wont do a thing with it but let it fall to peices including the trees grass and brush grow over. As far as the houses being built up around here, it wont happen close to me cause the farmers arent going to give up those fields to housing projects, theirs much more in more than a few miles of the area there not going to give up either.







My house is the one with the brown rooftop. The trees behind it were planted their many years ago, and the two trailer houses next to it have been abandoned too. So pretty much I got plenty of land to mess around with.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

53. I apologize for coming off as snarky in this subthread

I understand there will always be people like you who prefer a rural environment, whether or not you farm for a living. But I'm pretty sure you have made deliberate concessions and sacrifices for the location you chose. The problem with suburban, and exurban, sprawl is that it's designed to accomodate people who want the best of both worlds. They want open space and privacy, but with all the conveniences of the big city. It's understandable, but utterly unsustainable for the environment and the resources of the planet. Something has to give. Unless and until we come up with a completely renewable and non-polluting source of energy, people are going to have to suck it up and give up their big houses and yards.

Sprawl kills.

[CRF450]

54. You need to consider this too...

Houses out in the country are WAY cheaper than they are in the city. I cant afford a house in an urban area where theirs no drug dealers and gangs all over the place. But hey, I'm a country boy and I'll continue living that way.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

55. They're cheaper for the people buying them

But they're not cheaper for the community in the long run. As for crime and blight in urban areas, a lot of that is a) overstated and b) stems from deliberately siphoning off funds and resources from cities to the suburbs. We have simply got to invest in vertical development and mass transit, and move away from sprawl. I'm pretty sure it's going to happen by default, anyway.

[WriteDown]

74. I was in NYC in the 70's and now split my time between

New Orleans and DFW. Trust me, the violence is understated if anything. You wouldn't want to raise your kids in either city. Unless you are in an outlying area.

[tama]

64. Never kid about farming.

Half the oil goes into industrial farming, so when the oil is less and then no more, it's back to manual labor farming. 95% of the country should and will farm for a living. Or garden. When everybody is a gardener, that's called Paradise on Earth. :)

[WriteDown]

86. Unless you hate gardening....

then I suppose it will be a hell. You are assuming that there is no replacement for oil on the horizon. I am much less pessimistic.

[wuushew]

49. You may find yourself "forced" from desirable areas by simple economics

much in the same way not everyone is able to live in hawaii owing to the cost of living there.

Patterns of settlement will unconsciously adapt as the cost all energy not just transportation rises in the future. If the new equilibrium point stays persistently above the current cost you will invariably see an decrease in the standard of living.


As so much of our society's wealth is derived unsustainably, the argument for future austerity is not a hard one to make.

[WriteDown]

51. Considering that transportation cost is now in....

freefall, this seems unlikely. It may become more like Europe at some date far in the future where property ownership is rare and handed down through many generations.

[tama]

63. I guess you are right

sustainable development necessitates that current useless excess population (basically, non-farming population aka consumers) is collected into concentration camps called "urban centers", fed and castrated. As humanely as possible. :)

[FarCenter]

24. A lot of rail rights of way are already available

In many cases they have been either idled or converted to recreational trails.

Unfortunately, the rails have been ripped up, since otherwise, the communities that they ran through would charge the railroads property taxes. Another example of stupid, counterproductive policies.

[Auggie]

7. The problem is that we have BUILT everywhere

[WriteDown]

14. Too true nt.

[dysfunctional press]

27. you seem to be assuming that the only way to power autos is with internal combustion engines...

rather than spending trillions of dollars on high-speed rail lines that at this point would require an almost complete social transformation to be effective, we'd be better served by investing in alternative ways of powering automobiles.

[CRF450]

43. Exactly, people have places to go or want to go.

Rail is not going to be very practicle for many incuding most of us out in the country.

I'll stick to my cars, for those of you who want to force people to rail.

[tama]

66. Let's say

that we manage to switch every combustion engine into electric engine in 20 years and manage to build enough wind power etc to keep them powered. Swell. But where is all the asphalt going to come to pave the roads, all the plastics needed etc., ad infinitum? Oil is still a limited resource and there is still the little thing called "economics of scale".

Complete social transformation is unavoidable. Either you transform or weep and transform.

[WriteDown]

75. Wind will not solve.....

The problem of peak power needs. Most of our world is made of oil. I'm sure yours is too. What are your suggestions for a replacement?

[tama]

81. You are right

There is no replacement. Latest - cough, leaked and unconfirmed - rumours from IEA suggested that world's oil production would drop by half in 8-10 years.

[WriteDown]

85. Well if there is no replacement....

We might as well just enjoy life. I think that bio-oils hold promise, but we will see.

[tama]

91. So does cold fusion

So we might as well just enjoy life. But in order to enjoy life, it is required to really start living... :)

[dysfunctional press]

95. for starters- anything that can be made from petroleum can be made from hemp oil.

a renewable resource.

there's also a thing called "recycling"- there are plenty of current/old cars whose materials can be used to make new cars.

next?

[tama]

96. So

how many acres of hemp fields in US? Legal ones, not the ones that produce only the finest budding mixtures of cannabinoids... :)

In EU hemp receives EU subsidies, it's not much but a budding start. And to get real, there is the same problem as with all other biofuels - economics of scale, limited land available for cultivation and the fact that hemp seeds and oil are better consumed by humans than by combustion engines and chemical industry.

Much can be done with hemp - food, clothes, energy, spiritual "entertainment", etc. But not replacing the fossile fuels - just a small fracture at best.

Next?

[dysfunctional press]

101. when internal combustion engines are replaced- much less petroleum will be needed.

as far as asphalt for roads- bio-oils, recycling, rubber, tar sands, thicker concrete road beds etc. etc. etc...lots of options for creating a multi-prong approach. besides- nobody who is alive today will live long enough to see the oil run out, anyway.

[tama]

113. Not run out

but production to drop to half, then quarter, etc. To see the global oil market shut down and back to barter. Perhaps allready next year, perhaps later.

[dysfunctional press]

26. nope. we need an alternative way to power personal vehicles than internal combustion engines...

seeing as our lifestyles, society and our infrastructure are all built around personal conveyances- it makes MUCH more sense to develop electric/other vehicles, rather than spending that money on high-speed rail systems for such a large and sprawling country.

[maxsolomon]

99. planes don't run on cow farts, either.

high speed rail connects cities & regions, not the liquor store to bush's pig farm. that's where electric cars, and (gasp) BICYCLES come in. i'm in no way suggesting buildling high speed rail to link isolated, less populated communities & regions. i don't think omaha & witchita need a high speed link. but LA & SF do.

out here in the PNW, there is daily jet commuting for business between seattle & portland, while a S L O W amtrak train only runs infrequently, and I-5 is packed to the gills the 3.5-hour entire way, every day, burning gallons & gallons to move 1 or 2 people individually, when they're all going the same place. it's absurd & unneccessary & i am a full participant in it.

a twice or thrice-daily high speed train route connecting vancouver, bellingham, everett, seattle, seatac airport, tacoma, olympia, centralia, vancouver, portland, and so on would mean much more fuel-efficent, less-stressful travel.

[dysfunctional press]

102. they do run on bio-fuels and alcohol tho...

next generation of aviation jet engines are already being developed.

"vancouver, bellingham, everett, seattle, seatac airport, tacoma, olympia, centralia, vancouver, portland, and so on would mean much more fuel-efficent, less-stressful travel."

coupla things- if it were economically feasible, it would already be in development if not existence...and- if you start adding that many stops to the routes, it won't be very "high-speed" travel.

[maxsolomon]

106. we need several arrows in our quivers.

i am all for jet travel - but for short hops of 200 miles it is not neccessary - high speed rail would be more efficient. i'd like to save the jet fuel to get across oceans. sure, you have to be judicious in choosing stops to make it quick.

take away federal subsidies for highway construction & let's see how feasable rail becomes. or better yet, make gas taxes subsidize a rebuild of a system, and not just high-speed. we've had rail in this country - long distance & local trolleys - that was deliberately dismantled in favor of individual auto transport. we still have extensive, popular rail systems in NY, Chicago, etc. it is more pleasant than jet travel, i'm sure you'd concede. you're not strapped in & treated like cattle.

just because a rebuilt rail system in Murka seems unlikely today does not mean it won't seem practical when the petroleum is gone & capping GHG emissions is essential to human survival. or when gas is $10/gallon.

[dysfunctional press]

111. high speed rail might be more "efficient"- but we've already made our choice.

and the money to build a high-speed rail network that would ultimately most likely be under-utilized just isn't there at this point.

[LisaM]

4. Not to mention the pension issues

as their workers retire, which is probably starting to happen, with no company pensions.

[musiclawyer]

8. Honda's are overpriced and don't get THAT good MPG

Currently, The Civic and civic hybrid are Honda's showcase vehicles, but their business model is also based on selling a lot of other cars and trucks that have very mediocre MPG, perhaps better than the big three but barely adequate. And right now people are realizing they need cars with extraordinary MPG, at least until the next generation of all electric is ready. That will be years still.

Ford and GM should have re-tooled thier factories 5 years ago to bring over their Euro gas sippers with the high end interiors. Had they done this, they's be back in business. But their manamegement is shit, allowing the Asian automakers, including Honda, to have a head start. Hence, the Asians will beat them to the punch again in terms of sales in the coming years

[DainBramaged]

11. What very few people realize is how many cars and trucks are imported

here from Asia and Europe. Less than 25% of all Japanese/Korean/German cars sold here are made here. And though many here will not believe that, just look at the origin label on your Honda, Lexus, Toyota, Nissan, Acura, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Infinity, Hyundai, Kia, car or truck, et al.

And yes, GM fucked up. The new Saturn Astra (it's an Opel) is a wonderful start, as will be the Volt.

[heliarc]

21. And a lower percentage of cars...

"made here" are made here at all... GM keeps closing plants in the US and opening them in India...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04E4DB1F30F936A3575BC0A96E9C8B63

Toyota actually builds the Tundra here in Texas. So it may be more true that the landscape is changing and our biggest enemies aren't foreign manufacturers, but Offshore manufacturers who are multinational and hoard their profits in Dubai... and that includes companies like GM.

[DainBramaged]

30. Right, you're one of their accountants......

Open mouth, insert keyboard. Oh, and when did you stop beating your wife and kids???:rofl:

[heliarc]

32. Excuse me?

I'm not sure I understand your post... I'm pretty sure I'm against any movement away from a corporation paying its fair share in wages, benefits and taxes wherever they come from (US, Japan, Saudi Arabia whatever) so please explain how you think I'm "one of their accountants." My vote is one for more jobs in the US, and I've never beaten my wife and kids...(not sure where that comes from).

And how can you be an apologist for GM if they close plants here and open up again abroad?

Please explain or you get ignored.

[DainBramaged]

35. Your analysis is out of line, especially if you think that an emerging market

like India or China should be ignored while the Japanese build cars here. DID you know GM and Ford cannot build cars in Japan and Korea?? Of course not. Put me on ignore, then I won't have to listen to your bashing of my company and livelihood. Piss off.

[heliarc]

40. I'm not bashing anybody...

You seem to be the blowhard here... GM is your livelihood and I am entirely on your side and want GM to succeed. But I'd like it to succeed creating more jobs HERE. You would do better for your cause if you didn't insult people. I did know that GM and Ford cannot build in Japan and Korea. That doesn't excuse GM from closing plants in the states and opening new ones abroad. How long do you suppose you will continue to be employed by GM if it progresses this way... or do you intend to move to India? Wow... you should pick your battles and learn who your friends are.

[DainBramaged]

48. again my "friends" are humans I touch and speak to eyeball to eyeball

everyday, and if you don't understand WHY GM has closed plants here and (decided THREE YEARS AGO) to open in India, a DEVELOPING ECONOMY of ONE BILLION PEOPLE< you should reread ALL of the economic problems ALL of the automakers are having in the US and Europe. Your bullshit doesn't understand that Asia, China, India and Europe are PROFITABLE for GM and Ford.

Goodnight, I have no time for you I have to WORK at my living tomorrow.

[heliarc]

83. I'm up early because I have to work for my living too...

just like you... I count my friends a little broader than you do... and that happens to include a lot of working people who have respect for the people around them on this website. We post on this site because we care about democracy and our role in American. The smallest modicum of respect is required for that. Unfortunately you show very little of it to your peers. Good morning. I hope you have a good day. Really, I do. I hope GM's profitability from its exploits abroad doesn't take your job away.

[DainBramaged]

110. Would anyone here take me to work if mt car broke down,,

loan me money, watch my beautiful Daughter perform, go with me for radiation treatments, stay with me when I'm sick?

no, my real friends, not virtual friends, take care of me, and NONE of my REAL friends own Rice or Schnitzels.

Goodbye

[heliarc]

112. Bye...

Sorry... would have liked to have done all that for you. If you weren't such a spaz :hi:

[LSdemocrat]

23. At least the last three "imports" my family bought all had over 65% US parts

[DainBramaged]

29. Welllllllllllllll lets clear that up

MILLIONS of parts are imported here by Honda and Toyota through their parts subsidiaries, and then repackaged as DOMESTIC parts, qualifying them as Domestic content. Go around where the factories are, and try to find parts manufacturing or engine manufacturing plants, interior plants, like Gm Ford or Chrysler have. They don't exist. WE know for a fact.

But you can be smug in your belief you have helped America.:eyes:

[shanti]

12. maybe so...

but compared to other vehicles, their reliability is topnotch. who wants to keep spending money fixing the darn things?

[WriteDown]

15. The problem with that...

is that their Euro gas sippers would have to have had massive alterations to safety, suspension, braking systems, etc to meet US standards. They could not sell them at the price they would have ended up costing.

[fob]

20. Wait, wait, wait. It says there PROFIT was down 41%. They didn't

LOSE any money. They made a NET profit of $1.3 BILLION dollars over 3 months, July-Sept. Last year during this same quarter they made a NET profit of $2.2 BILLION dollars over the same 3 months, July-Sept.

The article says they will downgrade their yearly NET profit by 5 Billion Yen, which is about $12.95. By crikey get that company a $10 Billion dollar bail out, STAT!!

[DainBramaged]

31. Shows ya how much they are charging YOU the American dolt for their products

(not you, but America in general)

[depakid]

33. Sorry to have to burst your bubble, but Honda makes better vehicles

throughout their fleet. More reliable, better mileage and higher trade in values.

And they've been doing so (while Detroit has been whinging) since the 1970's and the CVCC.

Which is one reason why they haven't been losing billions.

[DainBramaged]

34. (sigh) another victim of Japanese propaganda

goodnight, thanks for helping to keep profits and jobs in America.

[depakid]

46. If Detroit hadn't opposed CAFE standards and just done it

Like Honda did with the CVCC -when American automakers said it couldn't be done, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[DainBramaged]

47. Did you know Toyota AND Honda are enjoined in a suit to oppose the new CAFE standards??

along with the big three, MB, and BMW? No, of course not.

[NickB79]

69. And the winner of the 2008 Consumer Reports Reliability survey is:

The Scion xD, made by Toyota.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/used-cars/reliability/best-worst-in-car-reliability-1005/reliability-findings/reliability-findings.htm

"Those are the top findings of our 2008 Car Reliability Survey, based on our subscribers' experiences with 1.4 million vehicles. Respondents reported on any serious problems they had with their vehicles in 17 trouble spots during the previous 12 months, which allows us to provide predicted-reliability Ratings for new cars. We include only models for which we have 100 or more responses.

According to the survey, nine hybrid models for which we have sufficient data earned above-average predicted-reliability Ratings. Most of those hybrids are from Japanese automakers. We also found that conventional gas-sippers such as the Honda Fit, Scion xD, Smart ForTwo, and Toyota Yaris had few problems."

snip

"Ford's three brands-Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury-continue to pull away from the rest of the Detroit automakers. Almost all Ford models are now average or better, with the exception of some that are truck-based. Excluding those, Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers.

General Motors is a mixed bag. Among the bright spots is the redesigned Chevrolet Malibu; in its first year, the four-cylinder version is better than average and the V6 is average. The Buick Lucerne with a V8 and the Pontiac G6 with a four-cylinder are above average, and the Chevrolet Avalanche has improved to average.

But a quarter of GM models are still well below average in reliability."

It goes on, but you get the drift.

I guess the 1.4 MILLION owners surveyed were also brainwashed by the Japanese propaganda machine :sarcasm:

[WriteDown]

76. Yep...

And the polls showed McCain in the lead a couple of weeks ago. Perception is far from reality.

[WriteDown]

44. Must be why Toyota leads in recalls?

:eyes:

[LanternWaste]

97. Looking at the Top 10 Largest recalls of all times...

Looking at the Top 10 Largest recalls of all times, it would appear that Ford and GM take the lions share. But I'm the first to admit that things happen...

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/total-recall-ten-largest-auto-recalls-of-all-time/

10. Ford 1987 (3.6 million vehicles)
9. GM 2004 (3.6 million vehicles)
8. Volkswagen 1972 (3.7 million vehicles)
7. Honda 1995 (3.7 million vehicles)
6. GM 1973 (3.7 million vehicles)
5. Ford 1971 (4.1 million vehicles)
4. GM 1981 (5.8 million vehicles):
3. GM 1971 (6.7 million vehicles):
2. Ford 1996 (8.6 million vehicles)
1. In February of 2008, Ford issued the industry’s largest-ever recall (12 million vehicles)

[Romulox]

98. If I were enlisting the help of a TIME MACHINE in order to buy a car

then recall data from 1972 might be material to the discussion.

As it stands, you are merely attempting to direct attention away from Toyota recent quality travails. :hi:

[WriteDown]

100. By that standard....

The Dallas Cowboys are still a great team too.

[LanternWaste]

103. Well-- in 2008 it seemed the largest recall ever was...

Well-- in 2008 it seemed the largest recall ever made was by an American auto company. That's pretty recent, and pretty relevant to the here and now; at least from where I sit.

I've got no horse in this race as I don't own a car.

Coke v. Pepsi-- that's what it is to me. Both make good pop. Some like one, some like the other.

[WriteDown]

104. Did you even bother to read what years that recall covered?

You may want to actually look into the recalls themselves. You can recall cars made in 93 in 08 you know.

[LanternWaste]

105. I'm afraid I thought I had implied this, but maybe not--

I'm afraid I thought I had a most obvious implication, but maybe not...

The difference total numbers on the list of American v. Foreign seem quite dramatic. no need to get bent out of shape over it. That was the implied thesis of my original post (your NFL analogy aside).

Big deal either way, right? You want to get on the Pepsi band wagon and cheer them on? Feel free.

Same deal goes for Coke-- feel free to cheer them on if it makes you feel better.

Some like one brand, some like the other brand-- some don't care either way as they're both fizzy water.

:shrug:

[WriteDown]

107. One problem with your analogy....

One is an American brand using union labor, the other is not.

[LanternWaste]

108. I see...

I see-- it's not American automotive technology, reliability and dependability you're so righteously defending. It's simply the union. My analogy didn't take unions as relevant because the dramatic difference in total numbers of recalled American v. foreign cars didn't either.

As I said, I don't own a car...

So-- insert clever rhetorical flourish here.

[WriteDown]

109. Once again...

read the years that were being recalled. American cars are just as competitive with their Japanese counterparts these days.

[CRF450]

52. The only imports that get better gas milage is their econo cars

Everything else when you get into the segments of luxury, SUV, trucks, and high performance cars, are no better than the domestics. In fact, the Corvettes can easily get 30mpg on the highway. I havent heard of any import cars that match the Vettes performance get 30mpg HWY.

The Toyota Tacoma's dont get any better fuel milage than my Dodge Dakota when equipt similarly as a crew cab, with 4x4 despite having a smaller v6 to my 4.7 v8. I'v heard a few times now that the new Tundra gets worse gas milage than a Chevy Silverado 1500.

[LeftyMom]

56. Corvettes get decent MPG because they're fiberglass

It's the same reason my 90's Saturn (they were made with lighter composite body panels until they started sharing parts with GM's usual shite around 2000-2001, then they promptly went to crap) gets decent mileage- even a relatively inefficient engine is going to look okay when it's moving a relatively lightweight body.

And you can't compare sports cars and luxury cars. Luxury cars tend to be very heavy for their size, because all the technological doodads, safety features and emphasis on interior swag, all of which adds weight. Sports cars can run from spartan to plush, but they tend to be built with an eye to weight because the emphasis is on performance.

Comparing the Corvette to roughly equivalent import two seaters might be better, and possibly still fairly flattering. I know my kid sister's mercedes (do. not. get. me. started.) gets mileage that would make an SUV blush, in spite of it's diminutive size. And it's the smallest engine that was offered that year- she has a 6 cyl and you can get the crazy thing with a V12 if you're so inclined. I think at that point, you're actually looking at gallons per mile.

[CRF450]

58. They dont have much fiberglass parts except the Z06

They use alot of lightweight metals, especially the engines, which are all aluminum and are MUCH lighter than v8's of other types than the pushrod v8's GM uses. Another factor is the transmission. The 6 speed trannies GM has used since the T56 are simply the best, and 6th gear is usually very tall. 60mph and only turning 1300rpm!

[LeftyMom]

65. I only really know the old ones.

:shrug:

[CRF450]

70. despite being much more powerful

The 6.2 v8 in the current vettes are way more efficient than the past generations. Its even a little bit more efficient than the LS1 in my 01 trans am.

The problem with cars these days is that they're getting too damn heavy. The engines are getting more efficient but the heavier weight is not helping much. My Dakota mid size truck (crew cab, 4x4) with the 4.7 v8 gets around 16mpg. Put that same engine in a car weighing around 3500lbs and it will get WAY WAY better fuel milage. I'd take a guess around in the low 20's since my dad's Crown Vic with the 4.6 v8 usually gets around 22-23mpg.

[CRF450]

59. dupe

[Romulox]

77. Depakid was one of the MOST VOCAL bailout boosters. He's a "free trader" as to YOUR job

and a protectionist as to HIS. :hi:

[LanternWaste]

39. Let's hope that...

Let's hope that people of all countries begin to see the advantages of rail and bus lines again, rather than investing our personalities and our self-worth into pieces of metal-- regardless of where they're made.

And maybe as these super-companies begin to go belly up and begin begging governments for more hand outs, the people will see we've been sold a bill of goods.

But then again, I imagine to some people that line of thinking is just anti-American and/or anti-Union-- I also imagine to label someone that is a good way to mask one's own fear and project onto people with different ideas and opinions. If I remember correctly, the church had done precisely that for app. 600 years.

[flvegan]

41. At least they had profit.

[LeftyMom]

57. Why do you hate American workers? *Ignored!*

Just figured I'd beat the usual suspects to the punch. ;)

[olddad56]

118. I will buy my next honda when I can own one for more than a day befoe it gets it's first door ding