'US missiles' hit Pakistan school (drone kills 7 students) BBC

[Nambe]

Source: BBC

Missiles thought to have been fired by the US have killed at least seven students of a religious school in north-western Pakistan, witnesses say.

The school, in North Waziristan, is close to the residence of a fugitive Taleban leader, Jalaluddin Haqqani, witnesses told the BBC Urdu Service.

At least two missiles, reportedly fired by pilotless US drones, hit the school early on Thursday. ...

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/south_asia/7685593.stm

---

Should school teachers carry rocket launchers? A case has been made.

[tblue]

1. Oh that's gonna endear us to the Pakistani people.

Holy crap! What next, huh? We are a rogue nation. Totally out of fucking control. I can't wait to hear the 'official' US response.

Those children.......their moms and dads........:cry: Why?

[Poseidan]

2. probably another of Bush's 'accidents'

That's his MO. He makes deliberate murder seem accidental.

[Kaleko]

3. Can you imagine if it was the other way around? Pakistani missiles hitting a school

in the US?

(assuming this story is true).

[Nambe]

4. Drones should be taken out of service until an impartial investigation is done.

If the operators are at fault, they should be made an example of. We are not at war with Pakistan so they should be extradited to Pakistan for trial. If the drones are at fault, they should be made illegal.

In a CNN video report from the border in question, a Canadian officer said his troops take cover when a drone appears.

Drones would be good for dropping food and medical supplies in a populated hot zone.

[endthewar]

6. It's not a problem with drones. It's a problem with intelligence.

[Nihil]

9. Yep - user error.

Don't blame the hammer for breaking the window, blame the fuckwit holding it.

I'm waiting for the blowback from all of these Pakistani civilian murders.
I know the US bribes the hell out of the Pakistani administration but that
weregelt never makes it to the actual families. It can't be that long before
a parent, sibling, cousin or friend decides to pursue the matter in the
traditional fashion.

:shrug:

[endthewar]

15. I think the blame probably lies with Bush trying to save his presidency

at the last minute by being a little too trigger-happy trying to go after Osama bin Laden. I think that if intelligence came across Bush's desk saying that there's a 95% chance that a target is a school for kids but a 5% chance that Osama bin Laden might live there, Bush would authorize the strike.

[Dover]

5. STOP THE KILLING!!!

STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP!!!!!!

[democrank]

7. Indeed, Dover.

STOP THE KILLING!

[machI]

8. The Bush Administration's policy for 'Winning Friends and Influencing People'

Bush allows our military to go into a country we have been told to stay out of, a country that we "Have to Have" as our friend, and he lets them use a robot to kill Pakistani kids.

It is time folks, to vote Obama

[independentpiney]

10. Actually a religious "school" in North Waziristan could arguably

be a valid target. They are really just indoctrination and intake centers for violent, young male religious extremists.

[Dogtown]

12. Should we have bombed

a Hitler Youth Camp?

Children are children, and condoning this killing reveals much of your character.

[independentpiney]

14. If it was 15-18 y/o males learning to man the aa flak guns

absolutely.

[endthewar]

16. I see you believe in the Bush preemptive war doctrine

which should have died when Hitler committed suicide. In the nuclear world, the true enemy can't be killed, because it is war itself. It's illogical to kill children because you think that someday in the future they might try to hurt you. Following your logic, perhaps we should throw all black male children in jail since statistics show that they are more prone to violent crime on a per person basis?

[independentpiney]

25. No, I do not support the bush preemptive war doctrine

But I also understand that many madrassas in North Waziristan not only aren't schools in any western sense, but also aren't traditional Islamic madrassas. And I also understand that the terms 'students' and 'children' are not interchangeable when discussing the attendees of these madrassas. The article refers to students, not children. You do know what the word taliban means I assume.
Everyone replying to this article is expressing a mental imagery of an elementary school being attacked and children being killed, which is not necessarily the reality.

[endthewar]

28. "which is not necessarily the reality"

Sounds like you're not completely sure. In that case, isn't better to err on the side of NOT killing young children? :shrug:

Your position is a preemptive strike position. You are not sure if it's bad, but are still okay with the attack. Summarized best as shoot first, ask questions later.

[Dogtown]

19. Take your war-mongering ass elsewhere.

Pretending that muslim school children are all studying war is ridiculous and reprehensible.

There is *NO* reason to suppose that the Pakistani school in question was anything other than a school. I don't particularly approve the syllabus, but there were likely 8 YO boys as well as 18 YO potential warriors in that school. Just like our schools.

I suppose you think it would be a legitimate act of war for "them" to blow up an American high school with an ROTC program.

[endthewar]

20. I don't think that poster will be responding

to either of our posts. Hopefully he understands the absurdity of his position now. :hi:

[Dogtown]

23. You're too generous, endthewar

the poster in question seems to be a full-blown "Chairborne Ranger".

[pimpbot]

26. So what do you do about the ones that scurry over the border

Into afghanistan and fire rockets, set IEDs, and kill Afghans and US Soldiers? Then scurry back into Pakistan. Just let them keep doing it? You act like the US is the only one that doesn't respect the Af/Pak border.

[endthewar]

30. "If it was 15-18 y/o males learning to man the aa flak guns"

But how do you know this? That's the point the poster you're replying to is making. You support a pre-emptive war doctrine. We are in their backyard, not vice versa. And stop trying to confuse Pakistan with Iraq.

Also, you should notice that Pakistan is part of the Afghanistan/Pakistan border, but the US is not geographically near that border. Pakistan has every right to be concerned about a foreign country setting up military bases right on their doorstep. Do you think we would allow Pakistan to set up military bases in Mexico within a few miles of our border?

[independentpiney]

34. Your defense of Pakistani foreign policy and it's intent

appears to be based soley on your own conjecture with no grounding in the actual history of Pakistans relations with Afghanistan or it's other neighbors. The ISI and elements within their military essentialy created the Taliban, supported them while they were in power and now give them safe haven in the NWFP to make cross-border attacks into Afghanistan. Just as they do with the Kashmiri extremists and have been suspected of even having the balls to do with the Uighars in Xianjian on occasion. Trying to portray them as merely concerned with US bases on their doorstep and defensively protecting their territorial integrity is laughable.

And could you please point out where I have confused Iraq with Afghanistan? Because unless you can, I think that allegation is indicative that you really don't have much factual information to work with on this and are resorting to the insult game.

[endthewar]

36. It's okay if you believe in preemptive war

but stop trying to pretend as if you don't. Pakistanis are setting IEDs to kill US soldiers and then scurrying back into Pakistan? So that is good enough reason to bomb this school?

[independentpiney]

42. I guess you couldn't find where I confused Iraq and Afghanistan

so it was easier to just repeat your unfounded "you support preemptive war" accusation and avoid being called out on your bullshit talking point.

[endthewar]

43. Sorry that your reading comprehension is so bad

My post was pretty short, but let me highlight it for you:

"Pakistanis are setting IEDs to kill US soldiers and then scurrying back into Pakistan?"

Perhaps you're confusing this with the IEDs being set in Iraq and the neocons along with McCain accusing Iran of sending them in and providing training and logistical support to extremists. So that is a good enough reason to bomb this school?

Your turn to answer a question from many posts ago:

Following your logic, perhaps we should throw all black male children in jail since statistics show that they are more prone to violent crime on a per person basis?

[independentpiney]

52. My reading comprehension is fine- yours not so much

considering "Pakistanis are setting IEDs to kill US soldiers and then scurrying back into Pakistan" was said by another poster, not by me. Not that that would be confusing Pakistan/Afghanistan with Iraq anyway.

Are you so woefully ignorant of the Pakistan/Afghanistan situation that you're acually not aware that there is substantial cross-border activity as well as not so covert ISI aid to the Taliban and other Deobandi groups? Do you know what a Deobandi is without googling it? Thankfully Barack Obama and Joe Biden have a far better handle on the situation than you apparently do.

As far as your question "Following your logic, perhaps we should throw all black male children in jail since statistics show that they are more prone to violent crime on a per person basis?"
I ignored it because quite frankly, it was just fucking stupid. What logic of mine was this following? I said that a madrassa in North Waziristan could be a valid military target. 'Could' being the operative word. I did not say all madrassas are valid military targets, nor did I say or do I believe it's ok under any circumstances to kill or harm children. In my opinion, in asking that you were practicing a tactic more typical of the right wing, one that I'm sure you hate as well when you see it from them. Don't become what you hate.

[endthewar]

53. It's been a pleasure watching you get skewered in this thread

I'm done. Side-splitting laughter indeed. :rofl:

[independentpiney]

55. Yes, it's been fun

and I expected it. Left wingnuts and right wingnuts have so much in common.

[Dogtown]

32. What has that got to do with bombing children?

Did the kids from this school form a raiding party?


You stretch too far trying to excuse the murder of children. It will not work; there's no excuse for targeting a school, or firing into the dark hoping to kill the right guys.

[tburnsten]

59. I didn't notice where in the article it said anything about children

Just "students", which could be anyone. I think you might be overreacting to independentpineys' posts a little bit, read back through them, he is not in any way advocating killing children. And like he said, not all schools in that area (madrassas?) are what we in the west would think of as a "school". A few of the schools are schools in the same way that a Nazi German SS training camp would be considered a "school", not the way we would consider an elementary school to be a school.




Article does not give enough information about the school to really be able to tell anything besides the apparent fact that a U.S. drone probably fired two missiles at something that could be described as a school and seven of its students, whoever they may be, were killed.

[endthewar]

61. Brand this school as a Nazi training camp until we have proof otherwise

and then dispute the proof. :crazy:

[Dogtown]

62. 'piney's post was inclusive:

"They are really just indoctrination and intake centers for violent, young male religious extremists." Not "some".

I've already responded to his attempts to obfuscate and distort this, now yours:



"fired two missiles at something that could be described as a school".

Not "described as", it WAS a school. With students. Which, generally, it is safe to assume are minors. Under 18. Children, that is to say.

Sure, it could have been a Pak VoTech. "North Waziristan Continuing Ed (GED classes available)".

Or maybe it was the typical madrasah, and taught children from K-12.

"A few of the schools are schools in the same way that a Nazi German SS training camp would be considered a "school", not the way we would consider an elementary school to be a school."

1st, I don't believe that is true, although it's an oft-repeated RW meme. I've never seen any evidence, other than a few photos of armed ME teens in what was clearly a Palestinian refugee camp, not a Pakistani or Afghani madrasah.

2nd, the ROTC equivalency still works; should we kill them because MAYBE they'll graduate this school and become adult jihadists?

We killed students. Minors. I consider students, in school, as non-combatants. Why don't you?

[independentpiney]

27. Nobody said Muslim children are all studying war

other than you putting words in my mouth. Which is a really weak debate tactic.

[endthewar]

31. "If it was 15-18 y/o males learning to man the aa flak guns"

Again, how do we find this out? If we find out that Pakistan youths are learning how to man anti-air guns, does that give us the moral authority to take out that school? By the way, AA flak guns are a DEFENSIVE weapon, not an offensive weapon. Should we go and take out every school around the world that might possibly teach teenagers to defend their country?

[independentpiney]

40. Pakistani kids and flak guns? waty to muddle the discussion n/t

[endthewar]

45. Might want to reread your post #14

OK, I understand now. Obviously I'm flying way over your head here, but at least try to keep up with your own posts. :rofl:

[tburnsten]

60. The "flak guns comment"

was an answer to whichever poster asked if it would be OK with him to bomb a hitler youth camp.

[Dogtown]

33. And minimizing your comments is a cheap cop-out.

You have justified murdering children because maybe they were being trained as warriors. The implication is that all madrasah teach combat techniques.

Madrasah are muslim religious schools. Some are extremist in nature, but to villify them all is ingenuous and a bullshit neocon tactic.

I'm done with you. I don't traffic with disruptors who advocate the slaughter of children.

[independentpiney]

39. I never vilified ALL of anything or justified murdering children

The article gives no information about the ages of the students. You along with most of the other posters are assuming it means children based on your own cultural reference, when in fact the student bodies of some madrassas consist exclusively of males from their mid to late teens up into their mid 20's.

The point of my original reply was that based on an article with very limited information you can't jump to the conclusion that it was the equivalent of bombing Our Lady of Perpetual Motion and killing grade school children. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't; there simply isn't enough information.

I also am done with you, because while your ideology may be diametrically opposed, your debate tactics are no different than any wingnuts. Being called a disruptor by someone who's been here 6 months- what a joke.

[endthewar]

46. So it's okay to bomb schools preemptively if they have older students

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Dogtown]

57. WHAT?

You want to pull rank on me for not being here as long as YOU, Mr. 474 Postcount?

Or are you planning to count your posts from your last incarnation here?


The point of your original reply was to set bait: "They (madrasahs) are really just indoctrination and intake centers for violent, young male religious extremists."

You did NOT suggest in that post that anyone was jumping to conclusions. You characterized all these schools as combat academies for jihadists. That's neocon propaganda.

In fact, MOST of these schools, extremist or not, teach children age 5 through 18, and often provide the only education available in the area; hence, it is not inappropriate to assume that we have killed more innocent children. More dead kids, and you defend the killers.

Usually, when I unmask a plant, I just walk away from their sorry asses, but your simpering smugness as you lie about what you've posted was a bit too much to allow.

[Roy]

37. Once they are proficient with those Flak guns...

please explain how they could so threaten this country to the point that we just bomb the hell out of them without even being sure they don't even like us.

Is it right to assume that 15-18 year old males may be attacking us within the next 5 to 10 years, so we should just take them out now?

With that kind of thinking we can justify just nuking the whole country, after all they have a lot of 15 to 18 year old males over there.

And thanks to this strike and others like it there are a few more of them now that don't like us and wish us harm. Also, why should they care about killing our innocents, our babies, our women, our elderly. Haven't we made it clear to this point, we surely don't give a damn about killing theirs.

What makes us think that their justification for killing Americans is any more pure than ours?

[independentpiney]

41. Sorry, that made no sense- flak guns again lol n/t

[Roy]

47. Just copied and pasted your thread title --- Post #14

And you are right it doesn't make sense, But, the rest of the post didn't make sense either.
I guess you realized it as well, since you address no other point in the reply nor it seems any other point in any of the replies to you in other post in this thread

[endthewar]

48. I had the same problem in post #41

The poster might have trouble keeping track of what he writes. Very peculiar.

[mrbarber]

50. "Sorry, that made no sense- flak guns again lol n/t"

"If it was 15-18 y/o males learning to man the aa flak guns" Your words, don't put an argument on the table than throw a hissy fit when people call you out on your talking points.

[endthewar]

51. The poster is clearly bipolar

:rofl:

[LynnTheDem]

13. ...

:wow:

[Nostradammit]

17. Out! Out! you demons of stupidity!

[UK populist]

22. If a religious school is a valid target then by your reasoning

Brown (fanatical) university would be a valid target.
Lets not forget all them home schooled religious extremists you have as well, suddenly it seems like there are a lot of valid civilian targets in backwards parts of the US.

[independentpiney]

29. If you can't discern the difference between Brown University

or a madrassa in Dearborn, Michigan, and a madrassa in the tribal frontier provinces of Pakistan, there's no reason to discuss this with you.

[endthewar]

49. Everybody here is trying to help you understand

Try opening your mind just for a second and read what has been written on this thread. You obviously aren't ready to open your mind today, so why not just save this thread and come back to it a week or two from now when you can think more clearly.

[Taverner]

58. It was a madrassa, but were they a threat to us?

A clear and present danger?

[SpiralHawk]

11. Impeach the AWOL frat boy "commander in chief' and his draft-dodging VP who has

Five Freaking Military Deferments.

Eliminate the Republicon chickenhawks, and Get some real leaders into the White House.

My God.

[newfie11]

18. Well this should help the recruitment for all terrorist organizations

How horrible!

[Mudoria]

21. I see the words "suspected"

and "reportedly fired" which means nobody knows jack atm. Till they do then it's all bullshitting...

[Dogtown]

24. Ah, a "bullshit" expert!

"Scatology U"?

[Canuckistanian]

35. What a COWARDLY way to conduct warfare

Someone sitting in a comfy chair somewhere in the US can push a button and doom people to certain death.

No risk. No discomfort. No consequences.

Just death from some machine in the sky that the victims never even see.

[gratuitous]

38. And to compound the war crime

There will, it seems, always be folks out there to justify and excuse the murder based on nothing more than conjecture and rigid belief in the tenets of the High Church of Redemptive Violence. And then they will cravenly run from their own position when actual human beings point out the folly of their position.

[lonestarnot]

44. OMG

[Sabriel]

54. What are we doing striking inside a country that has nukes?

Are they f*cking nuts? Is anyone in charge anymore with half a brain?

I hope Pakistan has a really high tolerance for provocation....

[Rosa Luxemburg]

56. they all complained when Russia was fighting with Georgia