Bush to release TANG records momentarily: CNN

[Flubadubya]

Dana Bash says the White House is just about to release records from Colorado that will prove Bush attended his duties in Alabama. :shrug: We shall see!

[Kahuna]

1. Uh huh. Yeah, sher babe. And there's a nice bridge in Brooklyn..

}(

[VolcanoJen]

2. I saw that too...

According to the CNN reporter, the documents come from the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Colorado. The documents are payroll records which document the dates Bush served in Alabama, according to the White House.

:shrug:

[Zhade]

173. Can't payroll records be falsified?

Hell - was he actually paid WHILE AWOL?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

3. Problem: they are from Texas- NOT Alabama

They have nothing to prove he ever showed up in Alabama. These Texas records they are about to produce assume he did. That is the catch here.

[maddezmom]

4. must just be waiting for the ink to dry

:eyes:

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cooley Hurd]

5. Dana asked why the WH took so long (10 yrs) to produce...

...the records. WH says, "uh... I dunno..."

Also says WH to release a letter from the commander of the TANG saying Shrub "had enough points" for discharge...

Um, isn't it his time in Alabama (not Texas) that's being disputed?

[Just Me]

8. What "had enough points" for discharge mean? *eom*

[CatWoman]

9. I'd like an answer to that too

You don't enlist to accumulate "points".

You enlist for a certain tour of duty, i.e., 2 years, 4 years, etc.

[freestatevet]

10. Not for the Guard and Reserve

You accumulate "points" to determine if you had a "good year." If you get enough points, you have a "good year."

[City Lights]

33. And then what?

If you had a "good year," you get out early? Is that how it works for the average Janes and Joes, or only the _chimp?

[freestatevet]

34. Anyone can apply

for an early out, rarely granted though.

[peterh]

56. If memory serves me…it really wasn’t that hard….

At least, during that time period….I applied and received an early out in May of `74 to start school in the summer session at the University that I applied to. I was due to get out in late July, so it really only amounted to about two months.

In the twit’s case, eight months appears extreme and when taken in the context that he was in essence, a weekend warrior for at the most, one weekend a month vs. active like I was…..welllllll….something stinks in Texas….

He could have just as easily gone to school while fulfilling his obligation to the ANG as do many Guard members…..my only pass for the twit might be that from `73 onward, downsizing was in full mode….and when one is transferred to a “disciplinary” unit for non-compliance, who wants you anyway.

The twit may have gotten an honorable discharge, but the fulfillment of his obligation was anything but….honorable….and I think that’s the key….

[MUAD_DIB]

163. Translation

Has enough points = Daddy Bush pulled strings once again.

[electricmonk]

6. As soon as they find some blank 1970's forms

That they can fill out they will release them.

[moondust]

39. Or Photoshop somebody else's. n/t

[Beetwasher]

7. I guarantee they are not going to release the RELEVANT

documents. They will release a whole bunch of crap, probably thousands of pages in order to obfuscate the matter and stuff that backs up the time he showed up. The missing time will still be missing.

[flamingpie2500]

11. Whatever keeps it in the headlines

The more Bushie opens his mouth--the more crap that spews out.
He's knee deep in it now, and will be up to his neck in it by election time.

[sallyseven]

14. The point is where is his DD214.

That his his discharge paper work and will tell what happened. It is the ultimate record and is available for every soldier. Most are smart enough to keep it available. Gives dates of service, honors won, advancements etc. Can be obtained by bush if he wants it. I doubt that DD214 can be faked. It is the official record. Where is it.

[freestatevet]

16. Isn't the DD-214

"Release from Active Duty." Only given to those who were on active duty?

[sallyseven]

19. No. he had to have served 6 mos of active duty

in the reserves to get one.

[freestatevet]

23. NO?

You mean "yes." He wasn't active duty.

[atreides1]

28. No

A DD-214 is also given to Guard and Reservist who complete their service eligibility. I confirmed this last night when I called a friend who got out of the Guard in 2001, he received a DD-214 when
he his time was up.

When I first enlisted it was with the Oregon Army Guard, I went to Ft Leonard Wood for training and upon graduation received a DD-214.

I then enlisted in the Regular Army, and received another DD-214 when
my time was up. So I have two DD-214's, and yet Chimp cam't even produce one.

And isn't it kind of convienient that some good soul in Denver, all of sudden found these records that the same Denver office said couldn't be found.

[freestatevet]

29. When you went to

to Ft Leonard Wood you were "active duty", correct? For Basic training NG and reserves are active duty as they attend federal basic training, no? Did you get a DD-214 from the Oregon Guard?

[joeunderdog]

183. Check out some RELAVENT links here:

This compliments of the FOIA:
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671
and this about the usual payoff by Shrub courtesy of Joe Taxpayer:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/19990927/aponline190140_000.htm
and some untorn documents here:
http://www.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=328

There's plenty of evidence out there. Why are there ANY questions left?

[Robb]

12. Here's a link:

Bush to Release Military Pay Records

The White House, facing election-year questions about President Bush's military service, is releasing pay records and other information intended to support his assertion that he fulfilled his duty as a member of the Air National Guard during the Vietnam war.

The material, to be released Tuesday, was to include annual retirement point summaries and pay records to show that Bush served.

The point summaries were released during the 2000 presidential campaign. "They show that the president fulfilled his duties, and that is why he was honorably discharged," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Monday.

Bush's military record was raised as an issue in the 2000 campaign and was revived this year by Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe, who called Bush "AWOL" _ absent without leave _ during a period of his service when he was in Alabama.

(more)

[VolcanoJen]

13. Why can't Bush find a PERSON who can confirm he was in AL?

Wouldn't it be more credible if he could actually produce a human being, rather than "points" and "discharges" and other such paperwork, which is prone to tampering and human error?

I mean, I could produce literally dozens of folks who could confirm my whereabouts during my service. I could produce photographs, and lots of personal memories, too.

Anyone wonder why he can't produce a single person who says he served with the freaking future PRESIDENT in Alabama????

Hmmm....

[maddezmom]

15. that's my question

No one will come forward?

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

37. Flight Logs

Every flight that takes off from a U.S. military base is logged. If Bush took off -- and as an TANG pilot that would be a good assumption -- there would have to be a record of the flight having taken place.

As to his pay records, that only proves that he defrauded the DOD out of a salary that he never earned.

[mike1963]

80. But the Alabama unit didn't have any airplanes...

:eyes: :crazy:

[LiberalFighter]

130. Apr 1972 -Last flight @ Texas Air National Guard

[Wickerman]

134. he defrauded the DOD out of a salary that he never earned

not to mention that he defrauded the DOD and the American taxpayer out of 1 million dollars for flight training that was barely used. Though, the way this King Midas in Reverse fucks up I'm certain too much time in the cockpit would've meant the loss of a plane sooner rather later.

[Chicago Democrat]

190. I so agree with you!

Awol and defrauder.

[flamingpie2500]

17. Excellent Point--

[Holly]

26. Yes...why can't he find just one person

who remembers him being there. Your gonna remember someone who was selected prez. People love to drop names. Also since he's the most smug and annoying SOB.....you'd remember him. It makes no sense at all.

[SoCalDem]

111. WHILE he was there , his Daddy was a congressman./CIA/ambassador to UN

and there were other "well connected" guys there too.. SOMEONE would have been aware of him.. These units were not made up of grocery clerks, and gas station attendants.. These were all "connected" people...that may be the reason why no one has come forward.. The spotlight would now be cast on them.. Who knows what "war stories" they have told their clients/friends/kids..??

[Chicago Democrat]

191. National Guard was for Cowards

who were too scared to go fight in Viet Nam. Everyone knows that. Bush is a drunken frat boy coward who went AWOL to avoid drug tests. He got a pass because he was a well connected Yale boy.

This is the same man who started two wars, one of which, Iraq, was completely unnnessasary and based on fabrications, pretexts and lies.
Even Afghanistan was completely bungled when you realise that neither Mullah Omar, nor Osma Bin Laden were captured.

[Mithras61]

18. The real problem

The real problem is that the NG was willing to grant points to allow people with strong political ties to get enough points to be discharged. We never claimed he didn't get enough points. We claimed he didn't EARN those points by showing up for an 18 month period. That isn't the same thing at all!

Our (Dems) claim is that * didn't show up at his assigned unit in Alabama during a 1.5 year period, and that this means that he was AWOL during that time, and could have been considered a deserter. We also contend that he was granted "enough points to be discharged honorably" by his TANG unit (the one he wasn't assigned to!) to allow him to be discharged honorably for political reasons (it's never a good idea to piss off a politically powerful Dad!).

We never denigrated NG service. In fact, many of us have served in the NG quite honorably. We maintain that * didn't fulfill his obligation to fly for the TANG for 4 years, because he skated out on a physical that he was directly ordered to go to (a court martialable offense in itself, btw), and that he never took the necessary flight physical to get his flight status back, and so COULD NOT have fulfilled his actual commitment!

[DU9598]

20. For all of this

Thank you Michael Moore and General Clark for not distancing yourself from Mr. Moore.

From an Edwards' supporter,
Chris

[Robb]

24. Same from me

Thanks MM and General Clark!!

From a Dean supporter!

[calimary]

154. And many thanks also from me

- yet another Dean supporter!

[rocktivity]

128. Don't forget to thank Peter Jennings, too

If he hadn't decided to try and suckerpunch Clark with the issue in the first place, none of this would be happening. Sadly, the scant media coverage Clark has received since might be the price he's had to pay for making Jennings look bad...


rocknation

[Danieljay]

155. personally, I think Jennings knew exactly what he was doing

Anchors are under a lot of pressure these days to keep their mouths shut of the truth. I still think this was an underhanded attempt to bring it to the forefront.

I also believe that after watching Bush making a total idiot of himself on Meet the Press on Sunday, anyone not questioning his ability as pResident risks looking as foolish as he did. I think the ship is beginning to spring a few leaks, and people are starting to jump off before it really begins to sink.

[Flubadubya]

21. All points well taken...

and these are exactly the issues that need to be made crystal clear in the media. The Bushies will do their damndest to obfuscate all of this as best they possibly can. The release of these "limp" excuses is just the start.

[Robb]

22. More good quotes:

from the SF Chron:

The point summaries were released during the 2000 presidential campaign but the pay records were not obtained by the White House until late Monday from the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver, Colo., McClellan said. He said the center, apparently acting on its own, reviewed Bush's records and came up with the pay information.

"It was our impression from the Texas Air National Guard -- they stated they didn't have them," he said. "It was also our impression those records didn't exist." Bush on Sunday authorized the release of his Guard records. McClellan said the latest material apparently is all of Bush's records.

The pay information documented the dates when Bush showed up for Guard duty, the spokesman said. "You are paid for the dates you served," McClellan added.

(snip)

Asked if the records should end the controversy about Bush's service, McClellan said, "You have to ask those who made these outrageous accusations if they stand by them in the face of this documentation that demonstrates he served and fulfilled his duties."

(more)

[LiberalFighter]

131. Acting on their own?

Since when would the ARPC act on their own?

How many bush* supporters do they have planted at the ARPC to do their bidding?

[snippy]

25. "I did not have sex with that Guard unit."

[T Roosevelt]

27. Check this out from Calpundit

ARF!....No, this is not the sound that Barney makes when the White House staff is late with dinner. Rather, it's the beginning of yet another intriguing mystery regarding George Bush's service in the Air National Guard. Read on for more.

To begin, you need to recall the original mystery of the "torn document" that purports to show Bush's guard activity in 1972 and 1973 (details here and here if your memory is fuzzy). Question: is the document genuine? Or some kind of clever forgery?

Answer: it's real. Here's the untorn version, as delivered to Bob Fertik in response to a FOIA request in late 2000:

<graphic>

As it turns out, though, we have traded one mystery for another. It's now clear that the document is genuine, but what exactly does it tell us? In particular:

* The first listed date is October 29, not November 29 as we had theorized before. But George Bush was still in Alabama in October. What exactly was he getting attendance credit for?

* This is neither a Texas Air National Guard document nor an Alabama document. What is it?

more

[CO Liberal]

30. He'll Report That He Drinks Tang For Breakfast...

...because it's what the astronauts drink.

:-)

[Robb]

31. 530 dead soldiers all agree.

This had better be good.

[Catherine Vincent]

32. Okay, I'm satisfied with the findings. Bush did not go AWOL.

I'm really sorry that I was ever worried about it. It's all in the past.

Move along everyone....

[Cooley Hurd]

35. CNN's Daryn Kagan asked (WH reporter) Dana Bash...

...why, after 10 years of questions about Shrub's Alabama ANG attendance, are these documents "suddenly appearing?"

Dana Bash: "Good question... no answer."

As of 11:30 am, documents are still not released by WH. CNN to carry the WH press conference live...

[mouse7]

112. Daryn Kagan asked a real question? About politics?

You sure she didn't ask a question about what Dana Bash was wearing?

[July]

36. I want to see the veterans' groups' take on this

since some are even offering rewards for proof of Alabama service. Hard to believe they'll see this pay record as sufficient.

[alfredo]

38. The head of our local VFW could not contain his contempt for bush

It had nothing to do with his service record, but with the way he is abusing current soldiers and veterans.

[daleo]

40. A few days ago I wondered

If someone wouldn't 'find' records in an old shoebox somewhere. It looks like they are giving it a try. I appreciate that the records will probably not actually address the relevant issue though. It will be some variation on 'I got an honorable discharges so I must have been there', which pretty much begs the whole issue of political favoritism.

[glitch]

41. what about this

http://onlinejournal.com/bush/110400Starr-Conover/110400starr-conover.html
snip
Bill Burkett, a former lieutenant colonel in the Guard, said, “As the State Plans Officer for the Texas National Guard, I was on full-time duty at Camp Mabry when Dan Bartlett was cleansing the George W Bush file prior to G.W.'s presidential announcement. For most soldiers at Camp Mabry, this was a generally known event. The archives were closely scrutinized to make sure that the Bush autobiography plans and the record did not directly contradict each other. In essence it was the script of the autobiography which Dan Bartlett and his small team used to scrub a file to be released. This effort was further involved by General Daniel James and Chief of Staff William W. Goodwin at Camp Mabry.”

more http://onlinejournal.com/bush/

[MoonAndSun]

42. Any news yet??

has the WH released the records yet??

[AZCat]

43. WH Press Briefing at 12:30

but it's late...

[maddezmom]

44. any update

have CSPAN2 on but no WH.

[Cooley Hurd]

45. beginning now...

:kick:

[maddezmom]

49. CNNInternational covering

thanks

[AZCat]

46. Not yet...

They're still getting ready.

[calimary]

159. WHOA!!!! They scrubbed his military records - this from November 2000???

Oh Dear God. They scrubbed his military records - to conform to what he said in his autobiography. Shit. And this came out in November 2000.

What a hose-job this nation has been forced upon this nation. I wonder if some recovering journalist in our vaunted national media will stumble on this.

[Zhade]

175. Thanks for the story!

NT!

[MissB]

47. We're finally seeing some backbone in the WH press corp.

One reporter (John ?) keeps hammering the point home- why didn't he take his physical to maintain active flight status.

[LiberalFighter]

132. Mandatory annual physical exam

1 Aug 1972 -Ordered by Col. Bobby W. Hodges grounded for "failure to accomplish annual medical examination

What happens after an Air National Guard pilot is grounded for this type of failure?

[Cush]

48. Good questions being asked

Q:Why did he not meet the medical requirements to continue flying in 72? Where was in Dec 72, Feb 73....

Scotty is dancing around them! he won't answer despite being asked 4 times!

[Skidmore]

50. It's the deceitfulness, Stupid.

Bush's deceiptfulness has gotten us and the world to this point. Remember how they hammered Gore on supposed deceifulness? Well, this stupid sucker and over and over engaged in deceipt. Do we detect a theme here? Lies about the war, lies about creation of energy policy, lies about Harken, lies about military records, lies about...well you add to it, I need to catch my breath.

[Cush]

51. Where are the witnesses?

"He did his duty, the records prove it"

[Braden]

52. proof that he was paid

not proof that he attended. doesnt prove much to me.

[Razoor]

53. look at him spin!

so far it looks like to me mcclean is dancing around the questions and spinning the answers.

[Cush]

55. Dance Scotty, Dance

[Cush]

59. Again, where are the witnesses?

Isn't odd that he can't find anyone to support him? His CO's in both Texas and Alabama have said tha they didn't know where he was


Scotty: The facts are clear! The facts are clear!

[LiberalFighter]

194. How many slots were available in Texas?

I seem to remember that they had 27.

Now..... How difficult should it be for them to remember one of your flight buddies? Especially, someone like bush*!!!

[mike1963]

62. A guy with no conscience working for one with no brain.

:grr:

[Cooley Hurd]

54. Press corps is HITTING SCOTTY HARD!

Asking about the flt physical - scotty NOT answering - reporter saying "why can't you answer a simple question? Where was Bush in Dec 72, Feb & March 73 and why didn't he take the flight physical to remain on active flight status?"

Scotty didn't answer...

This is cool!!!

[Bonobo]

57. Oh My God! Am I dreaming!? YEEEAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!

[saigon68]

60. I'd like to see his Form 5

Everyone on Flying status has one of these---

[dennis4868]

64. I am not able....

to watch the press conference. What does the WH say that the documents prove? That he was in ALABAMA National Guard from 1972-1973?

[AZCat]

65. No questions about a DD214

Why haven't they brought this up yet?
Max Clelland brought this up last night, it should be out there...

[freestatevet]

108. Because

unless he was on active duty with the Guard, he won't have a DD-214.

[Cooley Hurd]

66. They're not releasing ACTUAL documents!!!

David Gregory asking if WH will release ACTUAL pay stubs OR actual IRS returns to corroberate today's statement...

Scotty said NO...

Proof? We dun neeed no steenking proof!

On edit - the proof came from CO to the WH via email, not actual documents...

Scotty hasn't answered ONE question properly yet...

[Razoor]

71. so if there not releasing actual records or pay stubs

why did they say they would release records if Scotty is saying there not? but the Press corps is letting him have it. I dont think these records scotty is bragging about are not going to change things.
now scotty sounding like a broken record.
"he got paid for the days he served over and over."

[htuttle]

81. ALL THEY HAVE FOR PROOF IS AN EMAIL?!?

That's really weak. Even for Bush.

[CatWoman]

88. OMG

An email is now a WMD!!!

:D

[Walt Starr]

90. And they're calloing it a "payroll record"????

What a bunch of buffoons!

[AZCat]

58. Asking about the total lack of testimonials from peers

Scotty is such a liar!

[mike1963]

77. Ruh roh, his voice is cracking.

What an asshat.
:grr:

[maddezmom]

61. Still they can't find one bloody person that served with him

only his superiors that don't remember him ever being there?

[TheDonkey]

63. There reporters are pissed off!!! OMG THIS IS GREAT!

Finally sick of the WH bullshitting them at every corner.

take bush down!!

[maddezmom]

68. hope scotty has a can of right guard handy

[Cush]

67. Officer Effective Reports

state "he was not observed at this unit", said twice.

[Cush]

69. Woah

"It sounds like the Pres did join the guard to avoid going to Vietnam" citing a 1994 interview

[AZCat]

70. "Not interested in the facts"

No, Scotty, I think it is YOU who is not interested in the facts!

[maddezmom]

72. EXACTLY

[Flubadubya]

76. Oh, Scotty's interested in the facts alright...

He's interested in them not getting out! :grr:

[Q]

73. Republicans are gettting PAYBACK for always using...

...military service (or lack thereof) against their opponents.

- It's time these chickenhawks and slackers are made accountable.

[Just Me]

74. The article cited about Dubya saying he couldn't go to Canada,...

,...and didn't want the sounds of shots in his ear was CLASSIC!!! Oh GAWD, I laughed so hard!!!!

[colonel odis]

75. so he got paid? big deal

where was he?

find one person who will stand up and say he served with bush.

why don't they find the names of other people in his alabama guard unit, track them down, and ask if they remember bush?

you can't tell me that in 2000 NOBODY saw bush on tv and said "hey, i was in the guard with that prick."

[joeunderdog]

78. THis is a recording "He RECALLS that he served."

If I served, I would say that I served, not that I recalled that I served.

"These documents reflect that he was paid for fulfilling his duty." They do not produce EVIDENCE that he served, just that he wa paid for it. Shrub is a veteran of social promotion and has never earned a dime of the money he has. Thanks dad.

Pay stubs are not proof of attendance.

[htuttle]

89. They apparently don't even have actual pay stubs

If I'm understanding what I'm reading here, all they really have is an email from an officer in Colorado stating that THEY have the pay stubs. The actual pay stubs will NOT be released. Not even sure if this 'email' will be released.

[Beetwasher]

97. I Knew It!!!! I Knew It!!!

I knew they really weren't going to release anything!!!

Hahahahahahahah! This makes the whole story even BIGGER!!!

[LiberalFighter]

135. That is called GHOST EMPLOYMENT

[Zero Gravitas]

79. ALL of the documents?

or just the ones that they made up to prevent him from being drafted after it became clear he had gone AWOL for over a year?

[Malva Zebrina]

82. something about the "did his duty" repeated over and over

by them all, as if it were a talking point they all had to adhere to. It does NOT sound natural.

Not answering where he did his duty.

This whole thing smells like a dead codfish on the dock lying in the sun for three days.

[Cush]

83. haha

"Don't the American people and those in the military deserve an explanation?"

[SoCalDem]

85. This whole thing just makes me sad...

If the press had been this eager 4 years ago, look at what a diffrent world we would have right now..

4 years ago, they just blew it off.. I wrote letters until I almost wore out my keyboard...begging someone ANYONE to press him on the issue..and all they could do was make fun of Gore as a cameraman in Viet Nam:(

[Cush]

86. true

[Imalittleteapot]

93. I feel your pain. I did the same.

There are tears in my eyes.

[Just Me]

106. But, the press sure appears to be on "red alert" now *LOL*!!!

I had turned them off until I saw this thread and I gotta' tell ya' I was doin' cartwheels to finally witness some hard core questioning.

[calimary]

160. See Online Journal for a story about aide "scrubbing" bush records

Somebody else posted it here earlier. Note the date of the article - November 4, 2000. This came out almost four years ago. Looks like nobody bothered with it back then. Also looks like it answers MORE than a few questions... and provokes more than a few follow-ups.

http://onlinejournal.com/bush/110400Starr-Conover/110400starr-conover.html

Yes, the White House press corps was surprisingly relentless on this, especially David Gregory and a woman named April sitting toward the back of the room - who stood up and asked "don't the American people deserve to know" - in view of so many of them having to send loved ones out to war, or having to go to Iraq themselves? BEEEYOOOOOOOTEEEEEEEEEFULLLLLL!!! Can't believe so many of them were finally doing their jobs.

There was some insolent guy, bald, 30-something, in-yer-face type, who wanted to know what bush did AFTER Vietnam, like having his picture taken with Jane Fonda and badmouthing the war? Hmmm, wonder where HE was from. But the rest of them actually acquitted themselves fairly admirably. I was surprised. Pleasantly surprised.

[SoCalDem]

164. I saw it in 2000, but the press liked him and hated Gore

so they looked the other way..

Thanks a lot, press corps.. we are really enjoying the reign of "your boy".. We'll be "enjoying" it for decades :(

[belle]

177. True, but as they say, better late than never.

This *is* a beautiful development. (pulling up lawn chair, getting out the chips and cooler)

[gulfcoastliberal]

84. Listen in on CNN Radio

I'm at work listening and some woman is grilling Scotty that the American people deserve more than illegible photocopies nad it's more than "just politics". Hoo boy, this is good!

[SoCalDem]

121. That was April.. who asked him a truly assinine question a while back

about whether his "faith" had sustained him in difficult times..Maybe she has seen the light :)

[Cush]

87. David Gregory: Theres a contradiction

Explain how he was paid for his duty, but his CO's have said he wasn't there. Can you explain those contradictions?

[GinaMaria]

91. Thank you, from a cube rat

This thread has really helped. Keep posting if you can.

[Robb]

92. Answer:

"The president recalls serving in Texas and Alabama....These documents clearly show that the president fulfilled his duties....You are paid for the dates you served."

"The president recalls serving in Texas and Alabama....These documents clearly show that the president fulfilled his duties....You are paid for the dates you served."

"The president recalls serving in Texas and Alabama....These documents clearly show that the president fulfilled his duties....You are paid for the dates you served."

:D This is killing me!!

[Imalittleteapot]

98. Recalls. Remembers.

Non-committal words. He didn't say, "The President SERVED"...only that he recalls serving. The words smiths are at work.

[Lex]

101. And I'm sure McClellan was reminded

before coming out to the press conference to remember to phrase it that way.

"recalls serving"
"remembers he was there"

[Eloriel]

145. Legalism. Plausible deniability.

That's what they do best.

After all, memory may be faulty, so it's not a lie.

[calimary]

161. Some woman then asked "what do you mean by served" - what did he do?

Did he fly planes, did he do drills, what did he do? Answer: He served. He served in Texas and Alabama. The records prove he served his time and fulfilled his duty.

[Walt Starr]

94. Ask about ARF and DD-214!!!!

Damn, these media whores have no friggin' clue about service documentation!!!!!

[SoCalDem]

107. DD214..that's where we will get the real answers.. (unless)

someone was pressures to issue a false one./.

[freestatevet]

110. I'm afraid that won't help

He may not have a DD-214. Only if one was called to active duty will one have a DD-214.

[Walt Starr]

113. I was WARNG and I have one

I was only Active Duty for training.

[freestatevet]

115. Did you get it after training?

And how long was your training? How long in the Guard?

[Walt Starr]

117. I was in the Guard for several years

I got it when I was honorably discharged from the Guard.

I was in BCT for three months. Longest Active Duty stint I had.

[freestatevet]

122. 90 days on active duty is

the threshold for the Guard/Reserve to provide a DD-214.

[YankmeCrankme]

156. If that is the criteria...

than Bush would have one. He was on Active Duty for over 12 months, pilot training and training in the F-102.

[David Zephyr]

138. ARF & DD-214 Indeed, Walt Starr!

Damn, I like you!

[Lex]

95. I love it when there's

blood in the water that the "press" smells (finally) and this time's it's Dubya's.

Hope they don't let up.

[Walt Starr]

96. We are off this subject

The press corps needs to let this asshole know when we're off this subject!

[Walt Starr]

99. "We have evidence of payroll related program activities"

Somebody who has a contact with Jon Stewart needs to get that line to him quick!

[Lex]

104. Reminds me of "wardrobe malfunction"

Dubya has a serious "showing up for duty malfunction"

[David Zephyr]

142. Your Cooking WS: "We Have Evidence of Payroll Related Program Activities"

[dbt]

100. Serious Nixon Flashback!

Is McClellan "twisting slowly, slowly in the wind" or what?

:evilgrin:
dbt

[Bonobo]

102. Dubya had the capability for and was intending to attend the Nat. Guard

[AZCat]

103. MSNBC story on records

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4230576/

This is about the press conference, but they haven't posted the actual docs the press was given yet.

[zbdent]

105. So, Bill and Hillary are pilloried for not going through all their

boxes from Arkansas while they were workaholics during the Presidency. Takes them a couple of years to be able to have the time to go through them.

Mr. "I go on a long weekend every week to either Camp David or Austin" doesn't have the time to look through his old baseball card collection (remember, he owned the Texas Rangers) to find his military records?

Wouldn't you have them personally stashed?

Remember, the official records "conveniently" were destroyed in a fire.

[joeunderdog]

109. Well, the honeymoon is ovah.

No softballs whatsoever today. Looks like the media has been allowed to ask real questions. Shrub will wilt mightily under the light of day. The fact that the press was relentless and not buying that Shrub "had been paid for remembering to show up" crap seemed to be a clear departure from their warm embrace for the excuses of his endless shortcomings. Has the RW finally seen the danger of having a complete loser like him in the White House? Lately, we've been seeing the press stretch their legs on stories about outsourcing, military record, CIA investigation and Medicare? They appear to have a new set of orders.

Anyone else seeing the change?

[gulfcoastliberal]

126. Only took 3+ years

Clinton's honeymoon lasted all of 3 weeks. Better late than never, though. I hope it continues through the year. Karma is hard to escape, even with the entire media covering for you.

[TankLV]

143. Clinton NEVER had a "honeymoon".

He was attacked from the minute he won in Novenber - BEFORE HE WAS EVEN SWORN IN.

I remember it all like it was just a minute ago.

That's the main reason I'm sooooo pissed at the whore media and their coddling of bunkerboy SINCE BEFORE HE WAS OFFICIALLY CAMPAIGNING IN 1999!

[kath]

168. Right on, Tank-- CLINTON HAD NO HONEYMOON WHATSOEVER!

[SoCalDem]

114. Lloyd Bentsen's son was supposedly in the same TANG unit

has he ever spoken up???

[kath]

172. unfortunately, although Bentsen senior was a Dem, he or his son had

dealings with the Bushies in one of their oil businesses or the Carlyle Group, or one of the other BFEE evil enterprises. So probably cannot be trusted here.

[rodbarnett]

116. White House Releases Bush Military Record - LINK

WASHINGTON (AP) - The White House, facing election-year questions about President Bush's military service, released pay records and other information Tuesday that it said supports Bush's assertion that he fulfilled his duty as a member of the Air National Guard during the Vietnam war

<snip>

"These documents clearly show that the president fulfilled his duties," McClellan said.

Photocopied payroll records distributed by the White House were not all legible. The White House promised clearer copies later Tuesday afternoon.

The documents indicate that Bush received credit for nine days of active duty between May 1972 and May 1973, the period that has been cited by Democrats as evidence that Bush shirked his military responsibilities.

A memo written by retired Lt. Col. Albert Lloyd Jr, at the request of the White House, said a review of Bush's records showed that he had "satisfactory years" for the period of 1972-73 and 1973-74 "which proves that he completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040210/D80KHV980.html

[Mithras61]

119. I liked this part...

The documents indicate that Bush received credit for nine days of active duty between May 1972 and May 1973, the period that has been cited by Democrats as evidence that Bush shirked his military responsibilities.

Let's see, nine days is about 4 weekends. That means that instead of the twelve weekends plus one week (that's about 31 days) he did about 4 weekends. That means he was AWOL for about 8 months!

A slight correction based on info from a related thread...

9 days is two weekends plus one afternoon, so he would be AWOL for 10 months...

[GinaMaria]

137. As a non-military person

9 days sounds very light. I had no idea that ANG only required a few days a year. That 9 days does not instill confidence that he should be leading the military. That's actually the biggest surprise in all this. 9 days? and claims to have military service? Seems unreal.

[nolabels]

125. Obviously some of the information they are trying to produce..........

they are not too sharp on. Most folks that served during them years could cite at least one, if not quite a few problems with their pay being screwed up at some Finance battalion.

I witnessed several people pay getting shorted, overpaid even told they don't exist for many months at a time. These were the days when officers signatures had to overrule what some overrated clanky, corruptible IBM vacuum tubed box had to say.

[LifeDuringWartime]

147. don't diss tubes!

they're still in the best guitar and bass amplifiers.

[grasswire]

118. parsing, parsing, parsing

"These documents reflect that he was paid for fulfilling his duty"

This means he was paid for the days he actually served. Not that he served out his obligation.

I'm dying to see this.

[grasswire]

120. and look

"The documents indicate that Bush received credit for nine days of active duty between May 1972 and May 1973, the period that has been cited by Democrats as evidence that Bush shirked his military responsibilities.

[truthisfreedom]

123. umm... excuse me, but didn't bush promise to release his IRS records on

meet the press? i swear i heard him say yes to the question about this posed by Russert. so... when do we get to see these?

[rodbarnett]

124. new link here

McClellan said the White House learned of the new records late on Monday.

Those records, however, may not put an end to the controversy. A columnist writing in Tuesday's Washington Post recalled his own Vietnam-era Guard experience and said he was paid despite skipping service for two years.

Bush left the National Guard with an honorable discharge eight months shy of the obligatory six years in 1973, to attend Harvard Business School.

news.myway.com/politics/article/id/37060|politics|02-10-2004::13:51|reuters.html

the link must be cut and pasted to make it work .... sorry

[truthisfreedom]

127. link?

[nolabels]

129. Some times google does work

here you go

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=455853§ion=news

[gasperc]

133. far short of the 15 day minimum!!!!!!!!

"Traditionally, members of the National Guard and Reserve are required to perform military training for a minimum of 39 days per year; 15 days of annual active duty training and the one 'drill' weekend per month. That has all changed. Especially with the Guard. Reservists can only be called up in a "federal" emergency.

The Guard can be activated by the President for federal service and by the Governor, who serves as Commander-in-Chief of the Guard, for "state active duty." This state service is usually associated with natural disasters, floods, storms, and other domestic emergencies. However, following September 11th, the Governor mobilized members of the National Guard to provide additional security at Hudson River bridges and tunnels, major airports, and the state's nuclear facilities."

www.nj.gov

"This increased reliance on Guardsmen and Reservists combined with increased numbers of extended deployments have placed additional burdens on both the families and civilian employers. Family Support Programs at every level of unit organization help to address some of this impact. ESGR's mission is to help address employer concerns resulting from their employee's prolonged active duty military service."

ESGR is an organization formed more than 25 years ago which operates under the aegis of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs. The 54 separate state organizations ( 50 state, D.C., Guam, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands) with assistance, funding, and support from the National Committee conduct ongoing outreach programs which include a Speakers Bureau, "Boss Lifts" (wherein employers have an opportunity to actually visit their employees during their military training activity), and an Ombudsman Program that attempts informal resolution of any conflicts between employees and their civilian employers.

[mountainvue]

136. So they chose

today when he primaries are going on to release this non-information? Did they think the media would be too busy to pay ateention to this today? Hopefully they get the message out to everyone that this info released today proves absolutely nothing, except what we've been saying all along. Where was Bush in '72?

[progressiverealist]

139. boy it's a b1tch when the press turns on you isn't it Shrubbie???

treat any lapdog badly enough and it will eventually bite you in the ass.

[captain_change]

140. A good year in the Guard

A little background, it used to be (way back) that you attended drill once a week for 4 hours, when they went to week ends they came up with Muta-4 & Muta-5 which gave you 4 or 5 days of pay. The muta-5 started on Friday night, the Muta 4 started Sat morning. They both went to Sunday afternoon.

In addition, most officers received ATA (I believe it meant additional training assembly) to do work and attend the Wed. Night staff meetings.

So a good year normally consisted of:

12 X 4 for the Muta-4 = 48
10 ATA & The Muta-5 = 10
15 Days of Annual Training = 15

Total = 73

Most officers drilled more than this.

Another point, you basically had to kill someone not to make CPT. I was promoted after going into the IRR and was living overseas, Why * never made it past 1LT?

[LiberalFighter]

180. Were you Air National Guard?

How many points was required for satisfactory service each year?

Was there a mile radius that NG had to have their residence?

If you were Air National Guard what year were you promoted to Captain?

What percentage of those that left or failed to receive CPT compared to those that did receive CPT? What were the circumstances that you knew about?

How long was it expected for a pilot to reach 300 hours of flight time?

How about information on the 500 hours level?

[captain_change]

185. answers

How many points was required for satisfactory service each year? Don't remember

Was there a mile radius that NG had to have their residence? Don't know

If you were Air National Guard what year were you promoted to Captain? I Promoted 1995, I was in the Army Guard, served as a Armor Plt Ldr, Armor BN Asst S3 NBC (which gave me the knowledge to know most of the WMD claims were false), Armor Company XO, Infantry Co Commander

What percentage of those that left or failed to receive CPT compared to those that did receive CPT? What were the circumstances that you knew about? No Ideal

How long was it expected for a pilot to reach 300 hours of flight time? Talk to a fly boy, I only flew 58 ton M48A5 & 63 Ton M60A3

How about information on the 500 hours level? see above

[LiberalFighter]

195. Thanks for replying

I figured that if there were people out there that had the answers it would build a base of knowledge to refute or support statements.

[lebkuchen]

141. "Stars and Stripes:" No excuse for going AWOL

No excuse for going AWOL (Face it, Chimpy, you're being haunted)

10 February 2004

It’s been recently brought to my attention that there is a very serious problem with soldiers going absent without leave, specifically in units that are about to replace existing units in Iraq.

None of us want to go to war. But it’s our duty to perform our jobs and defend our country as we swore to do. There is no excuse for going AWOL. Those who do it not only dishonor themselves, their families, and their units, but they’re also turning their backs on their brothers and sisters who are already over here. We need their help to finish the mission. They should do the right thing.

Pvt. 2 David Horton
Camp Arrow, Iraq

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=20374

[markus]

144. Nine days in two years

Why doesn't this show up anywhere in the CNN or MSNBC stories?

This bascially proves he didn't show up and was sent to Colorado to make up for this lost time.

Do we think that we're this stupid? Is the White House press corps this stupid, or this cowed?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=34204

[0007]

146. How come junior leaped frog over 500 men for the honor to fly...

when he had highly questionable grades scores? Did junior have special ROTC training to get a commission?

[LiberalFighter]

196. If I remember it was 150... still just as bad...

the other kicker on that is that there were 2 openings and those openings were going to be filled by enlisted men that were going thru the normal training to get the spots.

[Barrett808]

148. Timeline of Bush's National Guard Service

Timeline of Bush's National Guard Service
Tue Feb 10, 1:12 PM ET
By The Associated Press

Major events in President Bush (news - web sites)'s service in the Texas National Guard, according to National Guard Bureau records, as compiled by The Associated Press:

...

_1971: Participates in drills and alerts at Ellington. Begins work for Houston-based agricultural company.


_May 1972: Bush asks for and receives permission to continue his duties in Alabama while he works as political director on the Senate campaign of Winton M. Blount, a friend of his father. Loses flight credentials after missing physical exam.


_Sept. 6, 1972: Bush's request for a three-month transfer to 187th TAC Recon Group, Montgomery, Ala. is approved so he can work as political director for a Senate campaign.


_November 1972: Bush returns to his unit at Ellington in Texas.


_May-July 1973: Participates in non-flying drills at Ellington. Works at inner-city poverty program earlier in the year.


_Sept. 18, 1973: Bush receives permission to transfer to reserve status and is placed on inactive guard duty about six months before six-year commitment ends. Attends Harvard Business School in the fall.

_Oct. 1, 1973: Receives honorable discharge.

(more)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040210/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_national_guard_timeline_2

[skypilot]

150. It's been speculated though not proven that...

...that "inner city poverty program" work that Bush did was community service after his arrest for cocaine.

[SoCalDem]

151. "agricultural company".. I need that name

I have been looking and looking.. That company (with his buddy Bath) was the cover for when they and his brother Neil (I think) went to meet woth Menem in South America..

I have never been able to get the name to search for who else was involved..

They always are so vague with the background:(


I did find this.. not the right time frame, but interesting anyway

The Bush Beat

ast month our Governor took time out from his busy inaugural schedule to go

golfing with his father and Argentine President Carlos Menem at Austin’s Barton Creek Country Club, in what the local paper celebrated as "his latest foray into foreign policy." It was just a little foray, for George the younger (in the throes of the flu) only joined in for three holes.

Meanwhile, we’re still wondering how many holes he played in a 1989 gas pipeline deal in Argentina. According to a member of the Argentine Congress, in 1988, while George H. W. Bush was vice president and campaigning for the presidency, his son leaned on the Argentine government in an attempt to win a huge pipeline contract for Enron — the Houston-based energy company whose CEO Kenneth Lay has taken equity positions in the political campaigns of both Bushes.

Reporter David Corn faxed George W. Bush a list of some eighteen questions about the Enron deal in 1994, just as Bush was concluding his first race for governor. He dismissed each of Corn’s questions with no explanation. Bush did say he never called Rodolfo Terragno, the Argentine Congressman who raised the Bush-Enron issue in debate on the floor of his country’s Congress. Terragno had served as the minister of public works in the reform government of President Raúl Alfonsín, and he maintains that Bush called and introduced himself as the son of the Vice President. "He tried to exert some influence to get that project for Enron," Terragno told the Observer in November of 1994. "He assumed that the fact he was the son of the President would exert influence.... I felt pressured. It was not proper for him to make that kind of call."

Enron didn’t get the concession — until the Bushs’ golfing partner, Carlos Menem, defeated Raúl Alfonsín. "Enron was luckier with the new president," Corn reported in the Observer. "The pipeline was approved by the administration of President Carlos Saúl Menem, the leader of the Peronist Party and a friend of President Bush."

Menem not only approved the project. In his book Robo para la corona (I Steal for the Crown), Horacio Verbitsky, one of Buenos Aires’ most respected investigative journalists, reports that Enron got more than a contract. President Menem made the Houston-based energy company eligible for his industrial promotion program: Enron was declared exempt from Argentina’s value-added tax (IVA) and would pay no duties on capital goods while the pipeline project was in the works.

The day after Menem was inaugurated, another Bush son, Neil, played a highly publicized game of tennis with the new President in Buenos Aires.

http://www.texasobserver.org/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=937

[Malva Zebrina]

158. fascinating

this family is truly evil. I cannot think of another word that would describe them. They are totally self absorbed with nary a thought for others. There is something that is missing in the Bush gene pool. That something is a recognition of their place in the human race--they all believe they are kings and queens it seems. They are crass, lacking in intelligence, and truly evil and that includes their wives--and their progeny as far as I am concerned. The cancer of their rotting evilness is spread generation after generation. They are all, all the Bushes, evil. I am convinced that never ever should another Bush be ever elected to any office. They are intent upon controlling we little people, big time.

Down with all the Bushes!

There is a rumor that the twins will be campaigning for their criminal, dumbassed father. If so, I am going to say now, that these two stupid as their father and mother children are fair game and if I post to that, I do NOT expect to be villified. Thank you very much. :-)

[Snazzy]

165. seen this one? Mother Jones

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/03/argentina.html

Seems to me I had something about the Bush's actual trip there bookmarked. Came up for two reasons, early involvement with Enron (and Enron corruption in general--plus they wanted to build a pipeline like Afghanistan) and second the * campaign actually brought up Argentina in defense of Bush never having traveled anywhere.

See if I can find another link.

[SoCalDem]

166. I think that one is about the trips in the 80's..

The agricultural company from the early 70's is the one I am loooking for.. It sprang up suddenly, and was about "seeds" if I remember correctly.. I know it involved south american trips.. That was at the beginning of the "drug" culture taking off in the US..big time..

[Lisa]

179. anyone else remember the story that he used his TANG jet ...

... to transport plant seedlings or samples between Florida and Texas, for the company? I'm certain that an article claiming this was posted here at DU a while back.

[starroute]

184. I tracked down the agricultural company name a few days ago

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm

At Height of Vietnam, Bush Picks Guard
By George Lardner Jr. and Lois Romano
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, July 28, 1999

Bush called Robert H. Gow, a Yale man who had roomed with the senior Bush's cousin Ray in college and who had been an executive at the senior Bush's Zapata Off-Shore Co. In 1969, Gow left Zapata and started Stratford of Texas, a Houston-based agricultural company with diverse interests: from cattle to chickens to indoor, non-blooming tropical plants.

"We weren't looking for someone, but I thought this would be a talented guy we should hire, and he was available," Gow said. In early 1971, Gow gave Bush a job as a management trainee. He was required to wear a coat and tie and dispatched around the country and even to Central America, looking for plant nurseries that Stratford might acquire. The newly buttoned-down businessman also moved into a garage apartment that he shared with Ensenat off Houston's North Boulevard, an old 1920s neighborhood close to downtown.

"We traveled to all kinds of peculiar places, like Apopka, Florida, which was named the foliage capital of the world," said Peter C. Knudtzon, another Zapata alumnus who was Stratford's executive vice president and Bush's immediate boss.

Once or twice a month, Bush would announce that he had flight duty and off he would go, sometimes taking his F-102 from Houston to Orlando and back. "It was really quite amazing," Knudtzon said. "Here was this young guy making acquisitions of tropical plants and then up and leaving to fly fighter planes."


The article has a fair amount of interesting information on W and the National Guard (plus a priceless photo of him from the Harvard Yearbook.)

I also tried to find out more about Gow, but I didn't turn up anything except that he was another Bonesman.

[SoCalDem]

189. Geez.. I googled it, and it's mostly bankruptcy stuff & lawsuits

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22Stratford+of+Texas%22&btnG=Google+Search


Sounds like just his kind of place.. :eyes:..

This will take some time to trudge through

[Snazzy]

192. Oddly enough, Gow sells bamboo Yucatan Bamboo--link

http://www.yucatanbamboo.com/index2.php?page=main

Must have fallen out with the evil empire. Bob seems alright.

[kath]

174. That timeline does not include the very important fact that

Chimpy was grounded from flying on Aug 1 1972 for not accomplishing his flight physical in July 1972 (his birthday month, which was when the physicals were always scheduled), and there is NO evidence that he was EVER restored to flight status.

(If the *full* record was released, which would require that Chimpy waive his privacy rights as other candidates have done, it would include disciplinary records, which is what is really needed. Six months was added on to his time, presumably as punishment (should have been discharged in May 1974, but this was extended to Nov. 1974)

[lebkuchen]

149. Wow! Somebody rose to Chimpy's challenge and found the records!

I have a sneaking suspicion his interview with GE Man didn't go over well with the viewers.

[grasswire]

162. we still need to see the DD214

Bush's actual discharge papers.

The paper bandied about is the NGB22.

We need the DD214.

[democracy eh]

152. The more you squirm, the more it will hurt

yes he was paid, but did he serve?

so not only did he not show up, but he was paid and didn't show up?

danger, danger

[Teaser]

153. He was only paid for 6 days??!!!

What the hell? Is that right?

[LynneSin]

157. Great Column from the Washington Post: Another Guard got paid...

...even though he never attended his guard meetings

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27178-2004Feb9.html

From the Article:

In my case, it was something similar -- although (darn!) I was not rich. I was, though, lucky enough to get into a National Guard unit in the nick of time, about a day before I was drafted. I did my basic and advanced training (combat engineer) and returned to my unit. I was supposed to attend weekly drills and summer camp, but I found them inconvenient. I "moved" to California and then "moved" back to New York, establishing a confusing paper trail that led, really, nowhere. For two years or so, I played a perfectly legal form of hooky. To show you what a mess the Guard was at the time, I even got paid for all the meetings I missed.

In the end, I wound up in the Army Reserve. I was assigned to units for which I had no training -- tank repairman, for instance. In some units, we sat around with nothing to do and in one we took turns delivering antiwar lectures. The National Guard and the Reserves were something of a joke. Everyone knew it. Books have been written about it. Maybe things changed dramatically by 1972, two years after I got my discharge, but I kind of doubt it.

I have no shame about my service, but I know it for what it was -- hardly the Charge of the Light Brigade. When Bush attempts to drape the flag of today's Guard over the one he was in so long ago, when he warns his critics to remember that "there are a lot of really fine people who have served in the National Guard and who are serving in the National Guard today in Iraq," then he is doing now what he was doing then: hiding behind the ones who were really doing the fighting. It's about time he grew up.

PS - you need a free account with WP to read the rest of the article. Basically this guy says is the documents that Bush revealled does not mean that Bush actually served his time in the National Guard. This guy also got paid while in the NG, discharged honorably and yet he rarely attended his meetings.

[trof]

167. OK, LISTEN UP! Here's HOW MANY DAYS he SHOULD have served.

From the horse's mouth.
ME!
Different duty requirements for pilots.

If I remember correctly, my Air National Guard paychecks came from the U.S. Treasury Department. We were paid quarterly. On the first month of a new quarter, we were paid for the previous quarter.

The Guard doesn't pay you if you aren't there to answer "present".
I should be a simple matter to see how much income Bush received from the Department of Treasury (from his annual tax returns) each year of his Guard obligation:
Total annual income from Air national Guard (Treasury), divided by daily pay rate for a 1st Lt. on flying status (base pay + flight pay), equals number of days served.
May have to be adjusted for time spent on non-flying status (which should NOT have happened, see 2a below).

You can do the math on how much he SHOULD have received, had he been present each time he should have been.
12 REQUIRED monthly drill week-ends a year
24 days = 48 pay periods
(1 day's pay for each 4 hour period) = 48 days pay
12 REQUIRED Flying Training Periods
(FTPs) per quarter X 4 quarters = 48 days pay
2 weeks REQUIRED Annual Summer Encampment = 14 days pay
110 days pay annually

Anything less for each year of his six year obligation following completion of pilot training indicates no-show.

Three more points:

1. It's highly unusual that Bush was mustered out as a 1st Lt. If you kept
your nose relatively clean, you made 1st Lt. 3 years after your commission
as a 2nd Lt. Two years later, you made Captain. As long as you just put
your time in, it was automatic. That he didn't make Captain prior to his
discharge is very telling. Reason: He wasn't there long enough.

2a. Failing to pass your annual flight physical is one thing.
Failing to even show up for it is ENTIRELY another. It is a direct violation of Air Force and ANG regs. Punishable by disciplinary action, even court martial. The Texas Air National Guard (taxpayers) spent around $1,000,000 on his training. He committed to SIX years of flying AFTER getting his wings.
2b. The ONLY person who can administer an Air Force flight physical exam is a certified Air Force Flight Surgeon. An Air Force doctor. Not "your personal physician", or the Mayo Clinic, or ANYONE, who isn't a flight surgeon.

3. An Honorable Discharge is NOT "evidence" that he served his time. This
is one of the strongest "talking points" used by him and his supporters.
It IS evidence that his commanding officers violated ANG rules and
regulations. It's called "covering one's derriere". Had they NOT given him
an honorable discharge it would have called attention to the fact that they
gave him a pass and pointed up a serious dereliction of duty on their part.

Massey Lambard
Foley, Alabama
former Captain/pilot, 1963-1971
106th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron
117th Tactical Reconnaissance Wing
Alabama Air National Guard

[captain_change]

170. Good Count

My lower count was for an Armor & Infantry unit I served in, I didn't know that there was a higher requirment for fly boys.

[Cooley Hurd]

171. trof... have you submitted this assessment to anyone in the media?

This is the best I've seen (by someone who knows how the ANG operated during the 60's and 70's) and it deserves its own thread.
:thumbsup:

[LiberalFighter]

181. The Guard doesn't pay you if you aren't there to answer "present".

Not if Maj James R Bath was involved in attendance records.




Thanks for the info
Now we are getting some vets with more info

[TryingToWarnYou]

169. ABC just whacked Chimpy on the head.....

LOL...

Showed the Presidents side...then started with the discrepancies.

The discrepancies won.

The only thing the Bush camp accomplished today was to cement the fact that Bush has a very questionable service history.

[Mithras61]

176. New CNN Poll re: Bush Answers

http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/8954.html

Do you believe President Bush has adequately answered questions about his service in the National Guard ?

Yes: 6%
No: 94%
Total Votes: 5032

You can vote here: http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/

[ikojo]

178. KMOV channel 4 in St Louis had a blurb for a report

that is supposed to be on the 10PM news tonight. This report is about Bush's military records being moved from the Records Center on Page Avenue in St Louis. I don't know where they have been moved but they have been moved. They have also been sealed (surprise anyone?)

http://www.kmov.com/topstories/stories/kmov_nationalnews_040210_bushrecords.9813975.html

If the Dems let him get by with lying his way out of this one then they don't deserve to win the White House.

This needs to be investigated. The pugs would not accept the same from a Democrat that's for sure.

[number6]

182. Kick ..... Ass

:kick: excellent info here
see posts by trof and captain_change
yea 9 fricken days for a year ... haha
Bu$h your toast !!!!

[porkrind]

186. Look for the terror color chart to change ...

Anyone think it's time for the terror color chart to shift up a notch or two tomorrow?

The white house needs some serious damage control. Time to scare us with Al-Queda? Time to trot out Osama from the holding cell?

Look for "big news" tomorrow, and it won't be "AWOL." :eyes:

[Zhade]

188. Posted this elsewhere, didn't want anyone to miss it...

(In the 'Calpundit 6-month' post, about the press conference)

I'm watching it from CSpan.org - at about 33:30 into the clip, McClellan holds up the records and says "These are are the payroll records that we understand are available. This is it."

Listen very carefully. As he begins his next sentence, you can very clearly hear one of the press corp members - a male voice - say "bullshit".

:evilgrin:

EDIT: here's the page with the clip - http://www.cspan.org/videoarchives.asp?CatCodePairs=, But you'll have to browse back, the page has changed.

[AZCat]

193. LOL!

That's awesome! Can somebody clip the audio from that and post it? I'd love to have a short wav version...

It's good to see at least SOMEONE in the press sees the light :)