World's largest health system rejects free market

[Indenturedebtor]

Source: New Scientist

World's largest health system rejects free market
11:14 20 October 2008
NewScientist.com news service
Andy Coghlan

Free-market economic reforms rolled out across the Chinese health system in 1978 have led to a collapse in healthcare provision for a fifth of the world's population, researchers have concluded.

The Chinese government, recognising the disparities in access to healthcare between the urban rich and rural poor, is planning to overhaul the world's largest health system. The plan, entitled "Healthy China 2020", aims to restore universal access to primary healthcare by 2010.

"Before the reforms of 1978, more than 90% of the rural population was covered by a cooperative medical scheme," says public health researcher Margaret Whitehead of the University of Liverpool, UK, and author of an analysis of the health system in China. "After market reforms, less than 10% of the rural population was covered," she says.

Since the reforms – instigated by then-leader Deng Xiaoping – there has been a shift towards patients having to pay for their own treatment.


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:eyes:

The article goes on to describe how they had many of the same failures as our awful healthcare system.

What does most of the world know about healthcare though right? We're ranked #37 which if you do your math right is NUMBER ONE! Simply divide 37 by 37! :woohoo:

[nichomachus]

1. "Free-market capitalism fails again"

[Indenturedebtor]

2. But but but if we don't let companies skim 33% of the money out of the system

people will die! :eyes:

What kind of chowder headed stupid logic is that anyways?

[nichomachus]

4. Well, we certainly don't want the corporate execs

to have to give up their private jets and spa treatments in Switzerland.

[fascisthunter]

3. The Greedy wants to Corner Everything into their Market

so they can suck profits out of the sick, and dying. Fuck them....

[Indenturedebtor]

5. Yeah and what's also sick is that they try to blame the doctors

for the expense. Most Docs want a Nationalised system.

That shit drives me crazy when I hear people blaming the docs... it's like the idiots who blame unions for jobs going overseas, or trial lawyers for the loss of their rights :crazy:

[fascisthunter]

6. yeah... I heard the same crap

[Indenturedebtor]

7. Oh I forgot my favorite: "Teh Gheys ruined my marriage"

That one kills me :rofl:

It's like look - the fact that there are gay people out there isn't what makes you gay. Like it's contagious or something.

[WriteDown]

14. Yep....

Just the other day my doctor said he was forced to buy a 5 series BMW instead of the 7 series that he really wanted :sarcasm:. Doctors salaries are not the sole cause of the problem, but are definitely a contributing factor. I look forward to the day they are capped.

[Indenturedebtor]

15. Everything is a contributing factor but there are far less helpful professions

who make a lot more money. I'm not in favor of capping doctors salaries... for one thing we need more doctors and nurses. Find me a doctor who makes 5 million dollars a year and I'll agree with you about the cap.

[WriteDown]

17. Doctors still make PLENTY of money...

A lot of my friends who went to UNC medicine school have now opened their own practices and make well over a quarter million a year. I think they should be capped at around 150K. It will also have the added effect of getting people who really want to be doctors and who are not just in it for the money and glory to pursue the profession.

[Indenturedebtor]

18. It takes about 12 years of 80-120 hours a week of work to become an MD

Then it takes a few years to set up a practice. Some of them make a lot of money... some of them make less than 100k.

(on edit) And then most of them will work 60-80 hours a week. They have continuing education, 3 in the morning phone calls, and all of the stress and responsibiliy of having hundreds of lives in their hands 24 hours a day. They should make a lot of money.

There are hundreds of professions where if you were smart enough to be a doctor and hard working enough to do all of that you could make more money.

The insurance companies want you to target the doctors, but really the ins companies account for 1/3 of medical costs... lets worry about those costs and keep the doctors on our sides in doing away with them.

If we get to the point where doctor's salaries are getting in the way of quality and affordable medical care then I think we should worry about it. Until then I'm more concerned with people who do nothing but parasitise the system - like insurance companies and do nothing CEOs.

[WriteDown]

20. Most of the doctors that I know....

Are not the martyrs that you describe. Friday golf at noon and 1.5 hour lunches. They should be capped, and hopefully will be when UHC is finally implemented by someone with guts. That should also apply to all hospital administrators and everyone involved in the medical field.

[Indenturedebtor]

21. I don't know any doctors like that. I've known Orthodontists like that

I have two docs in my immediate family and spent the first 20 years of my life around doctors... most of them with private practices. I'm sure there are doctors out there like that, but most of the ones I've known (and I've known a lot) work like dogs.

I was pre-med but understanding the lifestyle as well as I do I decided to go another route. I love science, I love helping people, but I didn't want to spend half my life in school and the other half working like an animal.

I also sold cars for a few years and got to see hundreds of credit applications. There are more doctors out there than you think making less than 100k a year. If a doc can run 10 offices using NP's and new docs and make 500k a year/whatever, and still provide a high quality of care with affordable rates then I don't think we should mess with them.

Personally I think that the people who provide the most vital services to society like firemen, doctors, teachers, etc should be very well paid.

[WriteDown]

23. I have 3 doctors in my immediate family as well...

1 is are family doctor and the other is anetheisologist and do unbelievably well in Pittsburgh. I know about 5 doctors from UNC medicine who are pretty much all general medicine with the exception of one surgeon. They all clear at least 150K a year and their schedules are sparse compared to most.

The other doctor in my immediate family is a Vet Oncologist. She easily clears 250K a year in San Fran.

[Indenturedebtor]

24. And you think that's too much for one of the hardest professions to learn?

I've known car salesmen who make 150k a year with high school degrees. There are a lot of car salespeople who make 35k a year but there are doctors who make 75k.

Anesthesiologist work uncharacteristically short hours, especially for specialists. They also have to worry about killing people directly so... :shrug:

[WriteDown]

27. The large majority of the people I have known....

that went into medicine did it for the money, the glory, and the trophy wife. Their has been no real love of actually helping people or saving lives. Even many of my own physicians seem pretty cold.

Ironically, the oncology vet that makes more than any of them truly loves animals.

[Indenturedebtor]

30. I know a doctor who went into his field for "security" and is now

one of the most highly regarded in his field. He gives talks every weekend. :shrug:

We should worry more about the behavior than the motivation I think. If people are rewarded for being good at something then I don't really care why they do what they do... especially when I need heart surgery. Just give me the best damn doc you got!

[ryanmuegge]

19. Not many doctors that I know.

Most of the ones I know say that they don't want a natioanlized system because they don't want it cutting into their profits.

I've seen polls saying that, but I'm suspicious. Granted, this is only antecdotal evidence. I also recall reading a statistic that said that an overwhelming majority of doctors vote Republican, though I can't remember where.

Obviously, though, the insurance companies are most of the problem.

And you're right, doctors should make a lot of money. Under a nationalized system, doctors should make way more than US senators and the president because they are often the smartest people and they actually help society, rather than destroying it further.

[Indenturedebtor]

22. The AMA supports a nationalised system.

There are bad apples out there but most doctors take their oath seriously. The ones that don't tend to end up stretching people's foreheads and stuffing silicone into perfectly shaped breasts.

[dysfunctional press]

25. i'd like to see free medical/nursing school as part of a nationalized healthcare system...

with fairly stringent qualifications and academic standards that need to be met & maintained.

[Indenturedebtor]

26. Now there's an idea! I'd like to see free university period

but that would be a good start. Isn't Police Academy free?

[enlightenment]

8. You know it's bad when China -

with all of the lax regulation, political suppression, and pollution (just to name a few) - starts to look like a better place to live than the US. Recognition of the need for universal health care; effort to stimulate the economy by instituting massive national projects to improve the infrastructure (railroad) . . . sigh.
:(

[Indenturedebtor]

9. Actually the wife and I have considered it

But only the cities and not forever. Eat organic haha.

[enlightenment]

11. China, the country, is a beautiful place and the

people are decent, hard-working human beings - no different than any other country. I don't mean to disparage the country or the people in any way.

Just the government that has allowed such egregious excesses and created so much human suffering in order to further the profit of a tiny minority of the population.

Even that horrid government seems to be "getting" it, though.

OUR government still doesn't get it - and probably never will.

[Indenturedebtor]

12. It's not just our government but our people who have been brainwashed

to think that the good of the rich is the good of the people.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. Actually, we're sort of like China a few centuries ago

They were the most advanced nation in the world until they decided that they knew everything and didn't need to change anything or learn anything from other countries.

By the nineteenth century, they were way behind the rest of the world in living standards, and the European powers were starting to nibble at them.

[Indenturedebtor]

13. A valid comparison. Things happen so much more quickly now n/t

[Vidar]

16. American-style Capitalism only works for rich looters!

[AlphaCentauri]

28. But they are socialist

The whole world is rejecting the free market health care

[Anticon]

29. I'm sure we could come up with a system where

the doctors pay is based on real factors like customer satisfaction, number of patients, risk/stress factors, malpractice. It would still be less paperwork than the bs they have to do now.