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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:31 AM
Original message
Voters in Ecuador Approve Constitution
Source: WP

Ecuadorans approved by a wide margin Sunday a new constitution that would expand the powers of President Rafael Correa and open the possibility that he could serve a decade in office.

Preliminary and unofficial results Sunday evening indicated that at least 65 percent of Ecuadorans voted for the constitution. That result, if confirmed in final totals, would hand an important political victory to Correa, the 45-year-old former economic minister who has made this a central issue in his first two years as president.

"Today Ecuador has decided on a new nation. The old structures are defeated," Correa told cheering supporters in the coastal city of Guayaquil. "This confirms the citizens' revolution."

The victory, Correa said, gives him the opportunity to effect rapid social change in pursuit of his vision of alleviating poverty and weakening the traditional elite as he implements what he calls "21st-century socialism."



Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/28/AR2008092802644.html?hpid=moreheadlines
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yay!
:party:
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. Pachamama
gives her blessing. :)
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. The people came through, even with the hate campaign by the Bush-supported opposition.
He wants Bush's grubby mitts OUT OF ECUADOR in 2009. If anything happens to this man, the whole world will know at whom to start looking.
Ecuador's Correa wins new powers in "historic" vote
Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:58pm EDT
By Alexandra Valencia

GUAYAQUIL, Ecuador, Sept 28 (Reuters) - Ecuador's President Rafael Correa won broad new powers in a referendum vote on Sunday that allows him to push socialist reforms similar to those being forged by his allies in Venezuela and Bolivia.

Correa called the vote a "historic victory" but the new constitution will unnerve investors because it increases state control over monetary and oil policy in the OPEC nation and could allow the left-winger to stay in power until 2017.

"Today, Ecuador has decided on a new nation, the old structures are defeated," a jubilant Correa told hundreds of celebrating supporters waving the green and blue flags of the government alliance in the port city of Guayaquil. "This confirms the citizens' revolution."

Electoral officials were expected to begin releasing official results later on Sunday, but a quick count authorized by the electoral authority showed 63 percent of voters backed Correa's proposed constitutional reforms and a key opposition leader said Correa had won.

Two trusted exit polls gave the former Catholic missionary 66 percent and 70 percent support.
More:
http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN2834023520080929
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. "...the new constitution WILL unnerve investors"--says Rotters.
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 10:39 AM by Peace Patriot
And we can be sure that Chevron-Texaco (about to lose a huge environmental damages lawsuit to a bunch of dirt poor peasants in Ecuador) WILL make sure to rattle those markets and "unnerve" those investors, to make Rotters into "truth-tellers."

Notice the construction of this sentence:

"Correa called the vote a 'historic victory' but the new constitution will unnerve investors because it increases state control over monetary and oil policy...". --Rotters (emphasis added)

You know, I am just mind-boggled by writing like this. In the U.S., if "increasing state control" over monetary policy means GIVING $700 BILLION to irresponsible and filthily greedy rich people, along with a bottomless credit barrel, that's okay. That settles investors' "nerves" (though it is STAGGERINGLY unsound and irresponsible financial policy), but if Ecuador dares to assert some reasonable control over its financial policy, to insulate it from first world "shock and awe," that WILL--not "might," not "maybe," not "threaten to"--no, that WILL "unnerve" investors, because Rotters says so.

And you gotta laugh--I mean, what else can we do?--at the "left-winger" transmorgifying into "the former Catholic missionary" by the end of the article. Look out, Wall Street! Liberation Theology is coming to get you!



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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. The fantasy land generated by corporate owned media
is truly a bizzaro world, where reality is almost a mirror opposite.

"Unnerve investors" and "market jitters" and such, is code for: "making rich men nervous about losing money". These same nervous nellies also own and or control most media through advertising revenue (no media network is going to risk pissing off a major ad purchaser, such as a military contractor, by reporting the truth about policies that make said contractor shitloads of money). With that firmly in mind, the content of U.S. propaganda outlets becomes more easily understood.
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. Wow. For the moment, democracy exists, and the U.S. has failed.
I have no doubt that President Palin and her handlers will eventually turn Latin America into a bloodbath, circa 2015.

But I think the U.S. will be destroyed, and democracy will not die in Latin America.
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Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. Correa seems less radical than Chavez or Morales
His "21st century socialism" looks pretty much like sound development economics:

The new constitution guarantees free education through college and pensions for stay-at-home mothers and informal-sector workers. Such measures build on already popular Correa programs that provide low-interest micro-loans, building material for first-time homeowners and free seeds for growing crops.

"He's going to activate the productive sector," said Patricio Quienacho, 48, the owner of a computer business who voted "yes" on Sunday in large part because he believes Correa will spur job growth through a program that offers five-year $5,000 business loans at 5 percent interest.
-snip-

Some in Correa's badly splintered and debilitated opposition contend he's creating a Venezuela-style autocracy. But while Correa followed Hugo Chavez's lead by pushing for a new constitution to help him consolidate power, he has kept the Venezuelan president at arm's length.

Unlike Chavez and Bolivian President Evo Morales, Correa has not moved to nationalize telecommunications and electrical utility companies or pledged to establish closer relations with Russia.

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=5906995


KEY POINTS

- Tightening controls of vital industries and reducing monopolies

- Declaring some foreign loans illegitimate

- Expropriating and redistributing idle farm land

- Allowing the president to stand for a second four-year term in office

- Giving free health care for older citizens

- Allowing civil marriage for gay partners

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7640704.stm
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Don't personalize
the constitution is a product of collective work. And it is radical, especially this:

" Chapter: Rights for Nature

Art. 1. Nature or Pachamama, where life is reproduced and exists, has the right to exist, persist, maintain and regenerate its vital cycles, structure, functions and its processes in evolution.

Every person, people, community or nationality, will be able to demand the recognitions of rights for nature before the public organisms. The application and interpretation of these rights will follow the related principles established in the Constitution."



" No other country has gone as far as Ecuador in proposing to give trees their day in court, but it certainly is not alone in its recalibration of natural rights. Religious leaders, including the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Dalai Lama and the Archbishop of Constantinople, have declared that caring for the environment is a spiritual duty. And earlier this year, the Catholic Church updated its list of deadly sins to include polluting the environment.

Ecuador is codifying this shift in sensibility. In some ways, this makes sense for a country whose cultural identity is almost indistinguishable from its regional geography – the Galapagos, the Amazon, the Sierra. How this new area of constitutional law will work, however, is another question. We aren’t ready to endorse such a step at home, or even abroad. But it’s intriguing. We’ll be watching Ecuador’s example."

http://features.csmonitor.com/environment/2008/09/03/ecuador-constitution-would-grant-inalienable-rights-to-nature/

Let's be realists, let's demand the impossible: that Pachamama or Mother Earth is granted inalianable right in all constitutions of the world.
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Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. "Radical" in the sense of 20th century State socialism.
And neither Correa nor the new constitution are "radical" in that sense.

Correa is an ally of the socialist regimes in Venezuela and Bolivia, although his reforms are less radical than those of Hugo Chávez or Evo Morales.

The new constitution contains a number of provisions aimed at the 38% of Ecuadorians who live below the poverty line. It guarantees free education up to and including university, increased spending on health, low-interest micro-loans, building materials for first-time homeowners and free seeds for growing crops.
-snip-
Correa has already taken a tough stance with oil companies, which he wants to accept a flat fee for extraction with no share of profits. Before a likely general election early next year, he hopes to pass a new law that will regulate mining, which he says will attract investment.

The US-trained economist once described George Bush as "dimwitted" and, in reference to Chávez calling the US president the devil, Correa said: "Calling Bush the devil offends the devil." Those comments, his policies while in office and the use of a referendum to boost his powers, including his potential time in office, have prompted unflattering comparisons with Chávez. But, while he counts Chávez as a friend, he has said Ecuador is not part of the same political movement and, unlike the Venezuelan leader, he has not moved to nationalise utilities such as telecommunications and electricity.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2008/sep/29/ecuador


Thanks for the interesting info. The passage quoted by you was apparently written by a Pennsylvania-based group:

Ecuador Constitution Grants Rights to Nature
By Andrew C. Revkin
-snip-

But as I mentioned last week, the Constitution includes a novel set of articles that appear to be the first in any Constitution granting inalienable rights to nature. Cyril Mychalejko of UpsideDownWorld.org wrote an interesting column exploring the political subtext and explaining how realities on the ground in that turbulent country may limit the significance of the language. Still, the wording alone is fascinating, as is the simple fact that the provisions were included.

One passage says nature “has the right to exist, persist, maintain and regenerate its vital cycles, structure, functions and its processes in evolution.”

The language in these provisions was evidently written by the Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund, a Pennsylvania-based group providing legal assistance to governments and community groups trying to mesh human affairs and the environment. It is derived from language already adopted by a scattering of communities in New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Virginia, according to the defense fund.

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/29/ecuador-constitution-grants-nature-rights/

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. Less radical than Chavez? Legal standing for Mother Nature is the most radical
and important idea to come out of South America (with the possible exception of transparent vote counting). Granting legal status to Mother Nature is far more radical than anything Chavez has done, including nationalizing telecommunications. It is a first in the world. And it is a major attack against global corporate predator power and its RADICAL alteration of nature, to the point of killing the planet.

Chevron-Texaco inflicted Ecuador's rainforest with a toxic oil spill far worse (about twice that of) Exxon Valdez. Several extremely poor indigenous tribes sued Chevon-Texaco over it. They are winning the lawsuit. But if the death threats against them, and their extreme poverty, had prevented them from pursuing the lawsuit, this Constitutional provision would allow the government or other parties to step in and sue on behalf of Nature itself.

This is an unprecedented assertion of sovereign power against multinational corporations and what FDR called "organized money."

Don't buy into Corpo/fascist 'news' spin about the South American left. Correa has not "distanced himself" from Chavez. They consider each other "brothers" and are working in tandem with Evo Morales (Bolivia), Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner (Argentina), Lula da Silva (Brazil) and others to democratize South America and establish its independence from the U.S. and its Corpo/fascist bullies.

As for Russia, South America created the South American "Common Market" (USASUR) this May. Brazil proposed a common defense as well, but it is not in place yet. South America has only one enemy--the U.s. According to Rafael Correa, there is a three-country U.S./Bushwhack strategy to foment fascist secessionist movements (in Ecuador, Bolivia and Venezuela), and split off the oil rich provinces into fascist mini-states in control of the oil (to regain global corporate predator control of the resources). This Bushwhack plot is out in the open in Bolivia--with the white separatists rioting and murdering and blowing up gas pipelines last week (where the issue is also the newly proposed constitution). And there are fascist cells in the port city of Guayaquil, Ecuador--where Correa spoke to a great crowd of supporters today--and in Zulia, Venezuela, where an assassination and coup plot against the Chavez government was recently exposed.

With no common defense yet in place, Chavez is responsible for defending the northern flank of the South American "Common Market"--the Caribbean coast of Venezuela, where Zulia is located, and where the Bushwhacks recently reconstituted the U.S. 4th Fleet. Zulia is Venezuela's biggest oil state. It is also adjacent to Colombia (Bush Cartel client state, fat with $6 BILLION in U.S. taxpayer military aid, and rife with fascist death squads--also with a "war room" in the U.S. embassy in Bogota, which gets direct feeds on U.S./Colombian military ops, such as their bombing/raid on Ecuador earlier this year).

Zulia is likely the Bushwhacks' main target--a major oil reserve "sitting duck" right on the Caribbean--more defensible, if they grab it, than Guayaquil, Ecuador, and certainly than the land-locked eastern provinces of Bolivia. UNASUR is currently trying to hold Bolivia together, so it is even more important that this fledgling but potentially very powerful "Common Market" (sans the U.S.) not be burdened with an additional U.S.-instigated crisis--a fascist insurrection in Zulia.

This is why Chavez invited the Russians to naval maneuvers in the Caribbean. It is a warning off. And he would never had done so without consulting other South American leaders, particularly Correa in Ecuador, a close ally (whom the U.S./Colombia attacked earlier this year), Evo Morales in Bolivia (currently suffering a blatant Bushwhack attack from within), and Lula da Silva in Brazil (who recently said that the U.S. 4th Fleet is threat to Brazil's coastal oil reserves). They are working together to defend their resources and their sovereignty.

In all of the Bushwhack coup and assassination plots, dirty tricks, psyops, massive funding of fascist groups, destabilization schemes, and "divide and conquer" schemes (like the fascist secessionist groups), and every nefarious scheme they have perpetrated, to destroy democracy in South America, and regain control of its resources, they have greatly underestimated the UNITY of South American leaders.

When the Bushites sent word to South American leaders that they must "isolate" Chavez, for instance, Nestor Kirchner (then president of Argentina) replied, "But he is my brother!" When Chavez came under criticism for his remark at the UN, that Bush is "the devil," and Rafael Correa was asked about it, in the midst of his campaign for president, he replied that it was "an insult to the devil" (and his numbers soared, by the way). When yet another assassination plot against Chavez was exposed (this one, in the Colombian military) in 2006, and the Bushwhacks were sending millions to rightwing groups to instigate a rightwing coup when Chavez won, Lula da Silva, president of Brazil, made a very pointed state visit to Venezuela, two weeks before the election, to open the Orinoco Bridge--an endorsement of Chavez. (The rightwing opposition candidate--now governor of Zulia--was obliged to publicly disavow that assassination/coup plot. Chavez won the election with 63% of the vote--his biggest win in a presidential election.)

These leaders are actively resisting "divide and conquer." They are no longer taking their marching orders from Washington DC. They understand that their strength as individual countries, and their countries' futures, depend on pulling together--a remarkable development in South America, not seen since the days of revolutionary hero Simon Bolivar. This is something that Barack Obama is going to have to learn. It is a "new day" in South America--an entirely changed economic/political landscape, in which Washington's (i.e., Corpo/fascist) nasty, venal, greedy, arrogant efforts to "divide and conquer," and dictate and dominate, are seen for what they are, and soundly rejected.

The efforts of the Bushwhacks and their Corpo/fascist 'news' monopolies to identify "good leftists" and "bad leftists" in South America, in order to drive a wedge between them, has been seen today in all the news accounts I've read of Correa's smashing victory in Ecuador. Well, I can tell you this--with great confidence: Correa is laughing at these accounts of him "distancing" himself from Chavez. He is smart as a whip--and very funny. He said that he would permit the U.S. military to remain at the Manta, Ecuador base (its lease is up shortly) if the U.S. permits Ecuador to establish a military base in Miami!

Correa has pledged to throw the U.S. military out of his country, early next year, when their lease expires. He is securing the western front of the South American "Common Market"--while Chavez maneuvers with his Russian guests on the northern front (the Caribbean) to warn off the 4th Fleet.

Chavez is his "brother." This is the main fact that a successful U.S. foreign policy in South America must take into account. And, in addition, to be successful in South America, the U.S. foreign policy must, a) support social justice; b) respect the sovereignty of Latin American countries; and c) stop all this shit that we have doing for a hundred years.
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Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Do you read Portuguese?
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 12:42 PM by Satyagrahi

Ação russa na região irrita Lula

Brasileiro advertirá Chávez de que laço com Moscou é provocação inútil

A crescente articulação militar e diplomática entre os governos da Venezuela e da Rússia, a ponto de os dois países terem agendado para novembro um grande exercício aeronaval conjunto no Caribe, irritou o presidente Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva. O assunto foi discutido no Planalto com assessores, ficando decidido que a insatisfação brasileira será transmitida ao presidente venezuelano, Hugo Chávez, quinta-feira, em Nova York, na cúpula dos países da Unasul (União das Nações Sul-Americanas).

Na avaliação do governo brasileiro, a Venezuela está "importando desnecessariamente para a América do Sul" uma disputa diplomática entre EUA e Rússia a reboque do xadrez geopolítico que levou forças da Organização do Tratado do Atlântico Norte (Otan) à Geórgia, à porta da fronteira russa. Virão, até mesmo, os bombardeiros supersônicos TU-160, que têm capacidade de carregar armas convencionais e nucleares.

"Não achamos isso positivo e o presidente Lula só não falou ainda com Chávez porque não teve oportunidade. Mas vai falar", disse ao Estado um ministro. Apesar de ter expulsado o embaixador do EUA, Chávez confirmou sua presença em Nova York para cumprir uma agenda que começa com a abertura da 63ª Assembléia-Geral das Nações Unidas (ONU), terça-feira. Na avaliação de diplomatas e assessores do Planalto a aliança Venezuela-Rússia, bem no rastro dos conflitos na Geórgia, deixou claro que se tratou de um jogo de resposta aos EUA, com Chávez fazendo o papel de "intermediário" da provocação. "Já temos os nossos problemas e as nossas questões, não precisamos de mais nenhum ingrediente para acrescentar tensão à região", observou o mesmo ministro.

Também incomodou o Brasil o fato de Chávez declarar-se "aliado estratégico" da Rússia. Outra preocupação: os russos também vão pôr um pé na Bolívia, o que já é do conhecimento do Itamaraty. Como o governo Evo Morales expulsou o embaixador dos EUA, La Paz vai perder, em dezembro, a preferência tarifária para exportações direcionadas ao mercado americano, assim como terá cortada a ajuda para o combate ao narcotráfico. A opção de Evo foi autorizar a ajuda do governo russo no combate ao narcotráfico, tarefa na qual Moscou tem pouca experiência.

More:
http://www.estadao.com.br/estadaodehoje/20080920/not_imp245128,0.php


Your claim (based on what exactly?) that Chavez would never have invited the Russians to naval maneuvers in the Caribbean "without consulting other South American leaders" was a little bit too optimistic.

That the left-wing governments of Latin America have common interests does not mean that their economic policies are identical. Some are more and, yes, some are less radical.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that even within Ecuador some people are more radical than President Rafael Correa:

But Correa has also come into increasing conflict with the country’s Left, who charge that his radical discourse is mere window dressing. Led by the Confederation of Indigenous Nationalities of Ecuador (CONAIE), Leftists are unhappy with Correa’s support for large-scale mining and other policies that they see as too friendly to big business and foreign investors.

http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/1499/1/

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. This appears to be an anonymous source....
No, I don't read Portuguese, and, since you did not provide a translation, I put the article you quoted through Google. It's difficult to understand everything via a machine translation--perhaps you could do a human translation and post it here--but one thing seems pretty clear: it's an anonymous source, a Brazilian minister reporting on discussions at a meeting. Anonymously reported discussions (or even attributed hearsay) are not sufficient to establish that, a) Chavez didn't consult Lulu about inviting the Russian navy to maneuvers in the Caribbean, nor, b) that Lulu doesn't understand why Chavez is doing it (and approve of his doing it). Security considerations are not always out front, public, or discussed with all ministers. Zulia (Venezuelan oil coast state) is very vulnerable, and Lulu knows it. Further, Lulu said last week that the U.S. 4th Fleet threatens Brazil's oil coast, too.

Here's the Google translation:

-----

Russian action in the region irritates Lula

Brazilian advise Chavez that relations with Moscow is pointless provocation

The growing military and diplomatic coordination between the governments of Venezuela and Russia, the point of the two countries were scheduled to air in November a major exercise in the Carib range, irritated the president Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva. The matter was discussed in Plateau with aides, decided that getting the dissatisfaction Brazilian will be forwarded to Venezuelan president, Hugo Chávez, Thursday in New York, in the dome of the countries of UNASUR (Union of South American Nations).

In evaluating the Brazilian government, Venezuela is "unnecessarily importing to South America" a diplomatic dispute between the U.S. and Russia trailer chess geopolitical forces that led the Organization of the North Atlantic Treaty (NATO) to Georgia, in front of the border Russian. Will even the TU-160 supersonic bombers, which are capable of carrying conventional and nuclear weapons.

"We do not believe that positive and President Lula spoke not only still with Chavez because they had no chance. But it will talk, told a state minister. Despite having expelled the ambassador of the U.S., Chavez confirmed his presence in New York to meet a schedule that begins with the opening of the 63rd General Assembly of the United Nations (UN), Tuesday. In the assessment of diplomats and aides to the Planalto Venezuela-Russia alliance, and in the wake of conflicts in Georgia, made it clear that it was a game of response to the U.S., with Chavez making the role of "intermediary" of provocation. "We have our problems and our issues, we do not need any more ingredient to add tension to the region," noted the same minister.

Brazil also bothered the fact that Chavez declared himself "strategic ally" of Russia. Another concern: the Russians will also put one foot in Bolivia, which is already known to the Foreign Ministry. Evo Morales as the government expelled the U.S. ambassador, La Paz will lose in December, the tariff preference for exports directed to the American market, and will cut off the aid to combat drug trafficking. The option of Evo was authorize the help of the Russian government in fighting drug trafficking, a task in which Moscow has little experience.


-----------

This could be a Lulu minister or aid doing his/her own political maneuvering. It could be a deliberate leak to keep the Bushwhacks off Lulu's back. I would have to have a lot more convincing evidence than this that Chavez did not consult Lulu and Lulu did not agree. There are also economic issues--internally in Brazil--that might prompt Lulu to want to give the impression that he was frowning on the Venezuela-Russia alliance. Brazil is an arms producer. Its arms manufactures could be irritated at Venezuela buying arms from Russia. Arms manufacturers are notoriously rightwing, and may present a political problem for leftist Lulu.

In sum, I simply don't believe that Chavez would do this without consulting the other leaders, and getting at least their tacit agreement. He has been too much of a champion of integration and cooperation to do something like this without consulting them. He has been a key leader--and maybe even THE key leader--on economic/political cooperation. They are ALL aware of the U.S. threat, which is out in the open in Bolivia. And it was Lulu who proposed a common defense to UNASUR. He is aware, a) that they need a common defense, and b) that they don't have one yet.

If the fascist cell plotting secession in Zulia were to revolt, and get U.S. 4th Fleet and Colombian support, the crisis in South America would be acute. If they succeeded in splitting off Zulia into a fascist mini-state--stealing Venezuela's oil and using it to create a "leftist-free zone" in the Caribbean--this would spark a state of war, or extreme hostility, between the U.S. and Venezuela's strongest allies (Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador, Bolivia, Uruguay, Paraguay, Nicaragua). The least that would happen is these countries cutting off diplomatic relations with the U.S., with severe impacts on trade. (It would also isolate Cuba. The U.S. could cut off Venezuelan oil supplies to a number of countries.)

Lulu MAY think--or may have advised Chavez--that naval maneuvers with Russia is not the best way to warn off the U.S. Or he may NOT think that. He may understand it completely, and approve of it. It impossible to say from this article. All I am saying is that Chavez would--and I am quite certain, DID--consult the other leaders. The U.S. is openly meddling, with violent tactics, in Bolivia. It has openly armed the fascist state of Colombia, with $6 BILLION in military aid. It surreptiously bombed Ecuador in March (using Colombia as the front--but orchestrating the incident from the "war room" in the U.S. embassy in Bogota). It nearly started a war with Ecuador and Venezuela. (Lulu credited Chavez with stopping that war.) Lulu and the other leaders are acutely aware of these events, and of the many dangers they face, as they seek independence from the U.S. These dangers INCLUDE U.S. backing of, and collusion with, the rightwing in Brazil--presenting a danger to Lulu himself and his populist government. At the same time, Lulu has tried to position himself as a "centrist" vis a vis the U.S./Bush, for what he sees as Brazil's economic benefit (for instance, the biofuels deal). So he has reason to want to project a certain image, no matter what he personally believes about the U.S. or has said to Chavez. Despite this friendlier formal relationship with the U.S./Bush, he has come to Chavez's and Venezuela's defense on numerous occasions. And I IMAGINE--just a guess--that, if the Bushwhacks are complaining to him about the Venezuela/Russia maneuvers, his reply would be, "You brought it on yourselves by all your asshole activities in South America!"

This is what I think is the general tenor of the private discussions among leaders like Lulu and Chavez and their allies (the Kirchners, Morales, Correa, Vasquez, Lugo and others). They are very much on a South American self-determination path, and they understand who their enemy is. How to deal with that enemy, strategically, may be--in fact, I'm sure it is--a matter of intense discussion--but it is a discussion among friends. And I think, too, that these friends and allies have had it with U.S. "divide and conquer" tactics in particular.
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Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. The Brazilian defense minister, Nelson Jobim, went on the record.
Asked about the naval maneuvers with the Russians in the Caribbean he said very diplomatically that "this is a Venezuelan problem"; i.e. while stressing Venezuelan sovereignty he makes it perfectly clear that the Brazilians aren''t too happy about this development:

Questionado sobre um eventual desconforto provocado pelo anúncio de um exercício militar conjunto entre Rússia e Venezuela, na América do Sul, Jobim foi direto.

"Isso é um problema da Venezuela", disse.

Lula teria ficado descontente com a realização do exercício, dizendo que Hugo Chávez, o presidente venezuelano, está trazendo para a América do Sul um conflito que não diz respeito a ela.

http://www.abril.com.br/noticias/brasil/2008-09-22-111533.shtml


The report by O Estadão confirms this. Yes, the minister is quoted anonymously, but he is quoted directly, in his own words, and he clearly states that Chavez did not consult Lula (they did not speak) before inviting the Russians.

You obviously know a lot about Latin America, so you must have noticed that Chavez' style can be quite undiplomatic (calling Bush the devil was funny, but it may have cost the Venezuelans a seat on the Security Council; and more recently, speaking about armed intervention in Bolivia was another blunder). Perhaps he coordinated with the Cubans, but certainly not with the Brazilians.

In my view, regarding the development of the region, there is a possible fault line between "20th century State socialism" ("radical") and sound development economics ("less radical"; Lula, btw, may not be radical enough in that sense).

I occasionally watch Chavez' speeches and press conferences on Telesur and I have to say that I am a little bit worried by his radical rhetoric which seems to be moving more in the direction of 20th century State socialism.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Yes, I was aware of CONAIE's criticisms of Correa. There have also been criticisms
of Chavez, on the Venezuelan left. And the grass roots social movements who support Morales in Bolivia are not exactly worshipful.

I am speaking more to the general tenor of things in South America--the common premises and goals, including the common premise that the U.S.-Bush is the chief and really the only enemy of this democracy movement, and the common goal of throwing off U.S. dominance. In this overall context--and in view of how things have gone over the last half decade (particular events and statements, as well as the general trend) it is simply not believable to me that Chavez would invite the Russian navy for maneuvers without consultation with the other leaders of South America.

Also, to say that Correa has "distanced himself from Chavez" is absurd. Chavez only six months ago came to Ecuador's defense--literally, by sending battalions to the Venezuela/Colombia border--when the U.S./Colombia bombed Ecuador. They are close allies.

I understand that there are differences in the way that these leftist leaders are aiming at social justice and sovereignty. Correa, for instance, has not nationalized telecommunications, but he has pledged to throw the U.S. military out of Ecuador--a critically important assertion of sovereignty, also important to the security of the entire region, not just Ecuador. Chavez proposed equal rights for women and gays, but the measure (included in 69 amendments to the Consititution on widely varying issues) failed, in a close vote. Correa has proposed and won equal rights for gays and women in Ecuador, as well as the world first of rights for Nature itself--in this overwhelming 65% vote. Each of these countries is different--different needs, different problems, different cultures, different components to the population (Bolivia and Ecuador with very large indigenous populations, for instance--while Venezuela is more mixed and Uruguay is mostly white). They present a fascinating set of examples of how social justice and democracy can be accomplished, and certainly each advance deserves study and comparison to the others. (For instance, did lifting term limits for president in Venezuela kill the other proposals--in an up or down vote--or did equal rights for women and gays kill lifting the term limit, given the particularly rightwing Catholic clergy in Venezuela? And how/why did both succeed in Ecuador?)

But to compare them as more radical or less radical is not really a good criterion. The core Bolivarians (Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia) are all radical, compared, say, to both Republican and Democratic Party policy in the U.S.--that is, they are much more democratic, and also they combine economic fairness with political/legal fairness. Civil rights are difficult to exercise if you are starving. Basic needs must be met for democracy to prosper. But this is radical only to Corpo/fascists, who really don't approve of democracy at all. Brazil's and Argentina's governments have the same goals--social justice, sovereignty--but Brazil in particular is trying to achieve them with an economy more tilted toward capitalist enterprise and less toward socialism. If you're going to compare these leaders, governments and policies, on the basis of "radicalism," you really need to spend some time defining radicalism. Is everybody having a decent income, access to education and an equal right to government services "radical"? Then virtually all of the governments of South America (excepting Colombia and Peru) are radical--in their goals anyway? Is the state owning the oil resource radical? Then Norway is radical--and also the rightwing governments prior to Chavez who nationalized the oil. Is Chavez taking it further, and requiring majority state ownership in oil projects, and a 60/40 split of profits in favor of Venezuela, radical? Or is it simply fair?

Does radical mean doing things that big businesses and Corpo/fascists don't like--such as Chavez nationalizing Venezuela's major steel company to settle the long-running labor dispute (and creating a partly worker-run company) radical? Or it just wise and protective of Venezuelan development?

These are not easy questions to answer--and simple comparisons (Chavez nationalizes telecommunications; Correa doesn't--or doesn't yet) don't really dig deep enough. Chavez's increased socialization of the oil industry, for instance, was in response to a particular problem in Venezuela--the Bush-Exxon Mobil supported oil professionals' strike, which crippled the country and nearly toppled its democratic government (in a series of other hostile Bush-backed moves). Chavez has been compelled, in many instances, to take strong state action, to preserve Venezuelan democracy and its economic/social integrity. And, naturally, Exxon Mobil considers him a "tyrant." (The rich and the rightwing also called FDR a "tyrant.") Is "radical" the right word for Chavez's actions? Neither Brazil nor Ecuador has faced such an internal assault (yet). Bolivia is facing one, though--as the Bush-supported white separatists in the eastern provinces try to split off from Bolivia, and take Bolivia's gas reserves with them. Was Morales' nationalization of the gas reserves "radical"--or was it wise and protective of Bolivian democracy and economic/social integrity? (The nationalization and Morales' re-negotiation of the gas contracts has DOUBLED Bolivia's gas profits--from one billion a year to TWO billion--one of the reasons that the gas fascists are so greedy--ironical as it is.)

The thing that strikes me about the South American left is that they have thrown out the "rule book." They are improvising, finding out what works, what doesn't, taking pieces of this system and that system--Cuba's health care system; U.S. small business models (small business is the biggest employer in the U.S.--Chavez is encouraging it, in Venezuela, with grants and loans--with one result being strong growth in the private sector); Brazil's Lulu protecting a big swath of the Amazon (and the last uncontacted indigenous tribes) with a presidential "rule by decree," etc., etc. Is Lulu "radical" for exercising presidential power that way? Is he non-radical and Corpo/fascist for his biofuels deal with Bush?

It's important to discuss these things, but calling them radical or non-radical is not sufficient. What we are seeing is great change, ferment, and experiment, with some very strong common goals, and unprecedented levels of accord, cooperation and friendship among South American leaders. Overall, it is a democracy movement, with many variations. But those variations are not causing discord among the main leftist allies (Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay). The Bushwhacks have had a bit more success with Chile and Peru, as to "divide and conquer," but Chile at least has been very helpful to the Morales government, in the current Bush-instigated crisis--both by granting Bolivia its long-sought access to the sea, and by heading up the meeting of UNASUR at which unanimity was achieved in backing the Morales government. Brazil's Lulu may disagree with Venezuela's Chavez on a lot of particular issues, but Lulu has backed Chavez 100% when it comes to crunch time (U.S. meddling and slander), and has joined with him on numerous projects, including, recently, putting up the money for a new major road from the Atlantic to the Pacific, through Bolivia (which will make Bolivia a major thoroughfare for trade, between Africa/Europe, and Asia).

We really should beware of underestimating this accord among South American leaders. The Bushwhacks have done so, and have "lost" South America (as the Corpo/fascists would put it) as a result. An attack on Chavez is an attack on Lulu, and Correa, and Morales, and the Kirchners, and others. That is how they have reacted consistently over the last half decade. They each have their own problems, agendas, policies and personal careers--but they all just formed UNASUR, the South American "Common Market," without the U.S.--and took their first big crisis, the Bushwhack meddling in Bolivia, to UNASUR, and not to the OAS, because the U.S. is not a member. They are pulling together. That is the most important reality that we must acknowledge--and that our Democratic leaders (including Obama) apparently have yet to learn. If Obama thinks he can get away with "isolating" Chavez, he is dead wrong. If the "Washington Consensus" crowd thinks they can pick "good leftists" vs. "bad leftists" in South America, and do more "divide and conquer," they are dead wrong. I have no doubt that's what they're up to, despite the Bushwhacks' colossal failure at it. And I think the result is going to be yet more alienation between the northern and southern halves of our hemisphere, and a great opportunity missed to heal wounds, and to proceed together, to create a powerful social justice economy. It makes me very sad to hear Obama demonize Chavez as "authoritarian." It is Bush and the Corpo/fascists behind him who are the authoritarians and tyrants, not Chavez. They use state power to torture and kill and benefit themselves. He uses state power to throw them off the backs of the poor. I know why Obama repeats their lies. But it is saddening, nevertheless, to realize what a human being with good instincts and intelligence has to say, if he's running for emperor, to please the emperor-makers and breakers.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
8. So with this new constitution, if a real hardline right winger becomes president...
then he has more power and can stay in power longer?

Sounds awfully short-sighted. Is Correa is the ONLY person in Ecuador that can make these changes?

Changing constitutions to build the power base of one office doesn't sound smart no matter how much the people like that one person.
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Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Two four-year presidential terms? How undemocratic!
;-)

Could you explain in detail which new presidential powers you find objectionable? Democratic control over monetary policy? The ability to expropriate and redistribute idle farm land?

Thanks.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. It's not the term, it's the consolidation of power in one person.
Any office that has too much power is open to abuse in the future. What are the checks and balances?

According to the article the downside is "..would allow Correa to consolidate too much control over the economy, as well as over strategic sectors such as oil and mining, without sufficient checks on his authority".
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Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. No, not "according to the article", but according to "opponents of the president"
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 10:07 AM by Satyagrahi
Opponents of the president say the document would allow Correa to consolidate too much control over the economy, as well as over strategic sectors such as oil and mining, without sufficient checks on his authority.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/28/AR2008092802644.html?hpid=moreheadlines


You'd expect them to say that...
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. So what are the checks and balances?
I can't find any real substance on the changes. If there are adequate safeguards, then the potential for abuse is diminished. If not, then eventually it is inevitable someone will abuse that power.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. E.g.
right of recall. If Ecuadorians fed up with president, they can change the guy anytime they want.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. That is the opinion of "Opponents of the president",
and is not necessarily true.

What is important, is that the constitution reflects the will of the voters.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. A right-winger will not be elected.
I am certain. Not in Ecuador, not any more.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Maybe not elected,
but possibly "elected", with all of the advances made in the computerized election fraud industry.

Here's to the empowerment of the working class in Latin America, a reflection of a genuine state of democracy.

:toast:
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Times and people change.
Eventually, a right-winger will be elected. As long as the constitution is strong enough to avoid abuses, then great. If not, then the changes were short-sighted.

Reagan would never have been elected in 1970, ten years later look what happened.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. More power to the president is combined with TRANSPARENT elections, in the
profound DEMOCRATIC movement that is sweeping South America.

That is the very important other side of the equation of this democratic "balance of power" that is being created. It has taken decades of slogging work, but South America, on the whole, now has elections that are far, FAR more transparent than our own. They put our elections to shame.

In the past, these governments have been characterized by rightwing crony corruption. After of period of heinous U.S.-backed dictatorships, they have been governed by WEAK rightwing, centrist or semi-liberal governments that sold out to global corporate predators and the World Bank/IMF "free trade" agenda, which devastated South and Central America.

To redress the enormous suffering inflicted on the people by this twofer punch of sadistic fascism followed by global corporate predator rule ("free trade," World Bank/IMF loan sharks), the people of these countries need strong champions, a la FDR, to bust the entrenched, and very corrupt power of local, rightwing moneyed elites.

This is an up-from-the-bottom movement, as was the "New Deal." But it cannot be accomplished with weak governments and weak presidents.

The safety valve in the system is TRANSPARENT vote counting. Fascists don't win elections. They STEAL elections. They also collude with the U.S. to murder leftists (majorityists) and smash democracy with violence, and then set up "democracies in name only" like the one in Colombia and the one here.

The South American democracy movement has taken many measures to insure that the U.S.-collusive fascists never gain control again. Transparent vote counting is just one of them--but it is the most important one. There are also other election rules that we don't have here--for instance, it is illegal in Ecuador to promulgate the results of pre-election polls in the weeks leading up to an election. The polls we have been reading about here--showing an increasing level of approval of the new Constitution in Ecuador--were not permitted in Ecuadoran news. The reason is that the Corpo 'news' (controlled by the rightwing) have promulated false polls. Another rule: no last-minute hit piece ads.

In addition, these democratic governments seem to be working in tandem to expose fascist coup plots, and to defend themselves against Bushwhack assaults. For instance, three different plots have been exposed in the last few weeks--in Bolivia, in Paraguay and in Venezuela. Correa himself has spoken publicly of a three-country, Bush-backed, fascist secessionist scheme (Bolivia, Ecuador and Venezuela). Also, in March of this year, the U.S./Colombia dropped 5 to 10 "smart bombs" on Ecuadoran territory, just inside the border, and then raided across the border (ostensibly to kill the FARC hostage negotiator, Raul Reyes, who was about to release Ingrid Betancourt to French, Swiss and Spanish envoys, under Rafael Correa's auspices). They almost started a war with Ecuador and Venezuela. Ecuador rushed battalions to its border. So did Venezuela. But then Chavez acted as "peacemaker" (according to Lula da Silva of Brazil--and it is my observation as well), to prevent his young, newly elected friend and close ally, Correa, from doing anything rash. (Correa was furious.) It was obviously a war trap. There is nothing that the Bushwhacks wanted more than to draw these two countries (bordering Colombia-- Venezuela to the north, Ecuador to the south) into a hot war--to trigger the fascist secessionist plots they had been working on.

The assault on Ecuador's territory was taken to the Rio Group (Latin American crisis group, sans the U.S.), with Colombia being forced to apologize and back down. Correa took the occasion to purge his military and intelligence agency of U.S. operatives.

As I say, they are doing many things, within their countries, and in alliance with each other, to prevent the kind of U.S. destruction of democracy that we saw in the 1980s, and to bolster the power of democratic institutions to maintain democracy in the future, as well as working with the military establishments to prevent internal coups.

The Corpo/fascists who are running things here are furious at the failure of their strategies, but they are going to have to get used to it. This is a very solid democracy revolution. It is not going to go away.

I agree that it is, indeed, a very delicate balance, between promoting democracy and having a strong president who can defend his or her country's sovereignty against very ill-intended global corporate predators who not only control financial markets, they now have direct control of the U.S. military for corporate resource wars. But the continuity of these leftist governments--such as FDR accomplished, with four terms in office--is very important to the survival of democracy, and to desperately needed social justice programs, in South America. Anyone can become a "dictator." All public officials need to be closely watched. But NO South American leader (except Uribe in Colombia, which is a narco-fascist state, not a real democracy) has crossed that line, and I know the whole story about Chavez. I have looked into every charge against him. The epithet "dictator" is a Corpo/fascist lie of the first magnitude, comparable to the non-existent WMDs in Iraq. It is very worrisome, because it looks like pre-war psyops. And it is totally false. And the Bushwhacks have been unable to "divide and conquer" South America's new leadership with this lie. They are all friends and allies of Chavez, and many have gone out of their way to have his back, and to testify publicly to his commitment to democracy. And the facts all support this. Venezuela has never been as democratic, never in its history, as it is today. And it puts our own democracy to shame in many respects. Venezuela has one of the most transparent voting systems in the western hemisphere, and, indeed, in the world. Venezuelans vote on their Constitution. Venezuelans vote on everything. And Venezuelans have a recall provision for the president. Don't we wish.

The main guarantee against tyranny is not denying powers that the voters want the president to have, but rather honest, well-run, transparent elections, to throw him out if they don't like what he does. And if the president can be held to account, by transparent elections, then he or she is far less likely to violate the public trust.

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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Great response
While I agree with you in theory, the capability for honest, well-run, transparent elections is hard to maintain in practice.

The way I view constitutions is they should be designed on the assumption that the worst possible megalomaniac is in power and the constitution should set the boundaries.

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HopeHoops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
21. They could just have ours - we aren't using it anymore
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
25. Ecuador votes to lock in its shift to the left
Ecuador votes to lock in its shift to the left
Ecuadoreans easily approved a new socialist-leaning charter Sunday.
By Sibylla Brodzinsky | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
from the September 30, 2008 edition



My vote: A supporter of President Rafael Correa
showed a new Ecuadorean Constitution autographed
by Mr. Correa on Sunday after the country voted
in the new charter.
Patricio Realpe/Ap

Bogotá, Colombia - The overwhelming approval by Ecuadoreans of a new Constitution that gives leftist President Rafael Correa a tighter grip on the economy puts the country firmly on a socialist track similar to Hugo Chávez's Venezuela.

"Today Ecuador decided to found a new country," Mr. Correa said Sunday after nearly 70 percent of Ecuadoreans voted for the new charter. "The old power structures have been defeated."

With the passage of the new Constitution, Ecuador became the first country after Venezuela in the region to institutionalize its leftward shift, says Larry Birns, director of the Council of Hemispheric Affairs in Washington. "This is a lurch to the left on the part of Correa," he says.

But Mr. Birns warns that Ecuador's move does not make it a lackey of Venezuela, which under Mr. Chávez has tried to take leadership of Latin America's leftward shift. "Ecuador is marching in a similar direction as Venezuela, but to a different beat," Birns says. "Correa is doing it his way."

The Constitution passed by Ecuadoreans, however, is very similar to the Venezuelan charter passed in 1999, one year after Chávez took office, launching his self-styled Bolivarian Revolution.

More:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0930/p01s08-woam.html
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
28. Thanks, Peace Patriot n/t
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