Republican quits in Hispanic row

[IndianaGreen]

Source: BBC News

Earlier story posted by JonLP24 (24-Sep-08):

NM GOP LEADER SAYS 'HISPANICS ABOVE BLACKS'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3507709

Republican quits in Hispanic row

Page last updated at 05:22 GMT, Saturday, 27 September 2008 06:22 UK

A Republican official in the US has resigned over comments he made to the BBC that "Hispanics consider themselves above blacks".

Fernando de Baca, the chairman of the Republican Party in Bernalillo County, New Mexico, also said Hispanics "won't vote for a black president".

Mr de Baca spoke last week but resisted calls from his own party to resign, saying he was quoted out of context.

He said he decided to step down because of the "media circus" that developed.

Mr de Baca had been approached by the BBC's Jon Kelly for comments on the presidential election campaign at the New Mexico State Fair in Albuquerque, part of Bernalillo County.

He was explaining why he thought John McCain would do well in the state, which has large population of Hispanics.

"The truth is that Hispanics came here as conquerors. African-Americans came here as slaves."


Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7639111.stm

---

The "Hispanics" de Baca was referring to, are the ones that pride themselves in their European ancestry. In Latin America they comprise the elites that the US relies on to protect its corporate interests. These elites look down on the indigenous and mixed blooded compatriots such as people like Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales, etc.

[Flirtus]

1. maybe gross generalization got the better of him

Your footnote illustrates there's no such demographic: "The Hispanics"

[IndianaGreen]

2. I come from a generation where the term Latino or Latina is the preferred term

Hispanic is the legal term used in legislation, and the preferred term by the older generation.

[Flirtus]

7. just to be talkative

I get agitated with (my generation's) local 'preferred term' "Mexicans", when that demographic that lives here is mostly Dominican or Guatemalan, and a fair number of Cubans, and then my actual Mexican friend (a college student) says she's White Mexican, and she prefers to hang out with Black students over making white friends, and it's an issue because she's usually The Only Latina in whatever prestigious college event she's involved in. Actually, lately she's taking to hanging with the little brown people (it's what they say!) - the India/Pakistani group.

Maybe my point is, how dull anymore is to be white. Everyone's already got me figured out.

Stating that a demographic is going to vote one way or the other is dumb. Recent examples:
Women will vote for (a female candidate).
Members of the armed forces will vote for (a vet).
White voters will only vote for (a white).

Female, former federal agent, white, older than Obama, voted for him in the Primary. In Tennessee.
Don't start on how the South votes. Only the November results matter.

Get Out The Vote!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

3. What an insulting, bigoted asshole.

:(

[Dr.Phool]

4. What a bigoted swine.

Even lipstick can't hide this pig.

[vanbean]

5. As a native New Mexican

I am embarrassed this guy if from our state. As he said the comments were taken out of context and that he was referring to views held by the older generation of Hispanics.
"Snippets were used to try and embarrass me," Mr de Baca, 70, told the Associated Press (AP) news agency)did he not realize the he is part of the demographic he was describing?

I am glad this guy is gone and hope that people realize this moron does not speak for all of us in NM.

[McCamy Taylor]

6. There are some very aristo descendents of Spanish conquistadores in NM.

Their shit doesn't stink, and they think that Anglo-Americans are nouveau riche. Do not confuse them with immigrant Latinos from Mexico and other countries from South of the Border.

[Ikonoklast]

8. My SIL is a Mexican of Spanish extraction

Her family has been on this continent for close to four hundred years. Her skin is white as porcelain, and they do consider themselves better than the native brown-skinned races.

Descended from the raping, pillaging Conquistadors. They've been loaded for twenty generations off what they stole.

[mitchum]

19. John Steinbeck had their number....

when he wrote about those who claimed their blue eyes and fair skin were due to their "pure Castillian ancestry"
Rubbish; it's due to some amorous Irishman in the bloodline.

edit: typo

[Joe Chi Minh]

46. That's more like it.

[sce56]

9. Yo soy Pocho!

De Baca is a coconut!

[happygoluckytoyou]

10. amigo.... trying to get us pissed at the BLACKS wont work..... MCCAIN IS THE WHITEST MAN IN AMERICA!

ANY WHITER AND HE WOULD BE CLEAR

[Critters2]

12. Hehehe! I'm so white I glow in the dark! I'm still voting for Barack! nt

[bitchkitty]

22. Tee hee! Call me Clorox! I'm voting for him too! n/t

[davidinalameda]

24. I'm so white I can't go to the beach

for fear of blinding people if I take off my shirt

[Critters2]

26. My sister's been hospitalized twice...for sunburn. And I'm more fair than her. nt

[davidinalameda]

30. that's why I stay out of the sun

[BayjanDem]

11. I'm black Cuban

What this guy is saying is said a lot down here in Miami. But it's the exiles (older) that are mostly propagating this stupidity. Younger Cubans are down with Obama.

[AlphaCentauri]

13. D' Baca maybe just reflecting a trauma that many US hispanics and blacks have suffer

All the southwest and territories that onces were part of Mexico or Spain, abolished slavery long before the civil war, actually slavery was prohibited when the first anglo slave master immigrate to those territories and start creating revolts to take down the Mexican governors and bring their slaves in.
Anglos imposed their laws and cultural values including slavery and racism but many hispanics rejected the WASP set of mind, considering the anglo values inferior to the hispanics moral values. That situation created a resentment an isolation of the hispanics who then were treated the same way blacks were treated after the civil war. discrimination and persecution has been common for about 150 years, even to these days any hispanic could be considered an illegal alien.

What need to be clear is that Mexico lost half of is territory for not allowing slavery in it's territory and that doesn't appear in the black history books.
The 2 communities should start revising their common history to better understand each other.

[Joe Chi Minh]

16. That is very interesting. Written history is a weird rag-bag of

truths, partial truths, misrepresentations of the truth (not necesssarily intentional), and probably most of all, omissions, frequently deliberate.

[AlphaCentauri]

17. If we can proof misrepresentations of the truth, that would be a good start

[Joe Chi Minh]

20. People are doing it all the time, actually, but you need to read an organ like the Guardian

to learn about them. If they are reviewed in the corporate media it will only be for the reviewer to disparage them.

We British are the only people in Europe who believe that Wellington (and his troops) won the Battle of Waterloo. They hold that it was Blucher. I read that a young Irish officer wrote the truth at the time, and was persecuted and ruined by our Establishment.

Most British people, those who weren't alive at the time of the rise of fascism in Europe, were brought up to believe that our leaders had always been fiercely anti-fascist. It might not have been expresly stated, but it was the air that we breathed. We won the war. Period. A united nation, all for one and one for all. Well, maybe we took all that a little too much to heart after the war, because, to the consternation of the monied classes, the Labour Party was voted into goverment in a land-slide election. Churchill was shaken to the core, but there were enough fathers and grand-fathers around who remembered Churchill as an anti-working class, far-right winger and a war-mongering imperialist.

We heard of the Americans palying a role, but I don't recall hearing much about the Russians' input. Until I read they had lost in excess of 20 million in that war - much more, in a single battle, than the rest of us in Europe and the Far East together.

But little was known of the aftermath of the war in Germany, Holland, etc, until cable TV, and still less about Japan and the role of people like MacArthur and the business consultant J Edwards Demming.

As for China... FORGET IT! Even now. Particularly in the US. Their ululations about Mao causing a famine killing millions - a normal occurrence, historically - would carry much more weight if they could explain why Pol Pot was allowed by our leaders to die in his bed. Or why people who had actually lived and worked there as school teacher all agreed that you couldn't have found a happier or more law-abiding people on the planet. A real joy to work there and come to know the people.

[AlphaCentauri]

32. Exactly, even media outlets like history channel or discovery channel omit many details in history

Like the battle of El Alamo were all the insurgents are portrait as heroes when many of them were fugitive rapist and criminals.
The Mexican war skips a lot of the details on the Mexican side like the child heroes story defending Mexico city.

[Joe Chi Minh]

37. Absolutely. There is so much in the detail, but the detail is only ever used

to tout the heroics or alleged heroics of the winners; very seldom the losers.

We all know the heroics of Nelson's navy, which of course were real enough. But how many know that the French admiral in one of the battles had both his legs blown off but ordered his men to place him in a barrel of sawdust, so that he could continue to direct the battle? It blows your mind, doesn't it?

[MadMaddie]

18. I agree with you

All History books are flawed and leave out a great deal of information that could explain much of what we are seeing and experiencing in our communities today.

[MellowDem]

27. Not very accurate history

Slavery was abolished around 1824 in Mexico, not too long before the war for Texas independence. Also, slavery certainly was very common in what is known as Mexico long long before Europeans arrived, in fact, without the arrival of Europeans I doubt it would've ever changed, ironically enough. Furthermore, what Mexico considered its territory included the territory of many indigenous peoples who did not consider themselves part of Mexico. In reality, Mexico had no more "right" over that land, originally conquered by Spain, than America did. And in history, might makes right.

Not so sure it is accurate to say that hispanics were treated the same way as blacks after the civil war, that's a bit of a stretch to say the least. Also, the use of the word Anglo by many Hispanics is very similar to the way many Americans refer to all Hispanics as "Mexican". Both are inaccurate and archaic language that needs to be stopped being used.

Also, Mexico did not lose half their territory over some crusade of not allowing slavery in their territory. In fact, Mexico invited Americans into its very unpopulated Texas frontier. The issue of slavery is certainly one of the reasons the Texans first claimed independence, but there were many more reasons besides. Mexico was a dictatorship, whereas the Americans coming in were used to rights and a culture that was vastly different and less restrictive in many ways than Mexico. Manifest Destiny and the imperialistic nature of the US at the time, with its expanding power and want for more resources and an expansion to the Pacific all were big factors as well. Southern states also wanted more slave states to balance out their northern counterparts in the government.

Mexico only really intervened because it was afraid of losing its territory up north. In reality, there is very little shared history between Hispanics and African Americans, which is part of the reason there is a lot of racial division at times. I have worked in places where I was the only gringo, and that is where I have heard some of the most racist bigotry in my life, almost always directed towards blacks. Racism has a fertile ground where there is poverty and resulting ignorance. I believe that has for the most part changed though, especially with the younger generation of all races. But lying about history certainly will not help things.

[Blaq Dem]

31. Not to forget about the Moors?

Blackamoore, moore, morena, maroon, Morocco..

Spain was once a melting pot of Africans, Arabs, Jews, Europeans, and lord knows what else. Spain was riding high while the rest of Europe lived in the Dark Ages.

Listen to the music, style of dress, culture, tasty food, dark curly hair,... it screams melting pot. Thus, hispanic isn't even considered a racial group, but whether an ethnic group.

In otherwords, don't be surprise to find out that Spain has a dash of African roots. I wouldn't rule it out. Now those in Latin America? Think Mestizos (indigenious people's of America mixed with Spaniards). I don't know why schools won't teach such magnificant, diverse history.

"Who were the Moors in Spain: Tarik Ibn Zeyad; Who were the Moors and what was their role in Spain? Tarik ibn Zeyad was a Moor who was instrumental in conquering Spain and honored by having the Rock of Gibraltar named after him. "
http://www.essortment.com/all/whoweremoorsi_ogk.htm

[MellowDem]

33. Very true

And if you go back in time enough, everyone has African roots. Hispanic does only refer to Spanish speaking peoples. And the Spanish language itself is heavily influenced by Arabic. In reality, we all have the same roots, however distasteful that might be to some Repub Neanderthals. (and some think we might have mated with Neanderthals as well!)

[Joe Chi Minh]

48. I believe the Queen has some African blood somewhere, and you know

what the late King Faroukh of Egypt used to say, "There are only five royal houses: hearts, clubs, diamonds, spades... and the House of Windsor."

The Arabic civilisation contributed greatly to mathematics and physics in the Middles Ages:

http://www.freearabvoice.org/acPhysics_1.html

http://www.freearabvoice.org/acPhysics_2.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_physics

One thing's for sure, caucasians do no have an innately superior intelligence. As Aldous Huxley cogently indicated in one of his essays, it's what a people sets its hearts upon, what interests it, in a given epoch that determines the direction and emphasis of its thought. He cited as an example the Mayans. The value, "zero", was discovered by them some 300 years before the Arabic and Hindu peoples.

An interesting quote from one of the links I posted above:

"Though the Arab numerals were originally a Hindu invention, it was the Arabs who turned them into a workable system; the earliest Arab zero on record dates from the year 873, whereas the earliest Hindu zero is dated 876. For the subsequent four hundred years, Europe laughed at a method that depended upon the use of zero, "a meaningless nothing."

Nuff said... Is it any wonder our Brightest and Best in the financial markets may well take us back to the stone age.

[MellowDem]

49. It's not that they are not Bright perhaps...

though Best is debatable. It is that capitalism is like weather, it is a fickle think to forecast, and that is what those bankers do. The point is to regulate the markets so that when those bankers and investors are wrong, it is not a catastrophe. It also means having regulations in place to hold bankers accountable. If they feel they have some sort of insurance from the government, that will drive them to take greater risks, and in so doing endanger all of us with their recklessness.

As for caucasians and superior intelligence, there are some out there who think people in general who live in the developed world, no matter what your race is, might overall be inferior in intelligence to those who still live in the pre-industrial world. The reason being that medicine and advances in the knowledge of the human body have allowed those who would usually have died or never even survived childbirth, much less the rigors of living, to prosper in the developed world and to even mate and pass on their "inferior" genes. I am not sold on this idea, but it is an interesting perspective.

[Joe Chi Minh]

50. Yes, it is, though I am not as sanguine about the intelligence of the Brightest. The fact is that

when a person's assumptions are plain wrong, no matter how high their IQ, their intelligence tends to be subverted so significantly and across such a broad spectrum that they are actually less intelligent than any ordinary guy.

The very basis of capitalism is crassly stupid beyond belief, not just because of the finite nature of the world's resources, or of the possessions of other people to plunder, but because open-ended covetousness is harmful to the well-being of the individuals concerned, their families, and society at large - and in the case of the US, the very planet. We are made to certain specifications.

[AlphaCentauri]

51. I guess part of the problem in the US is who can afford college

Looks like there are assumptions that a rich person is so smart so their kids must be the same.
Money opens the college door for those kids, for the poor smart kids there are not many choices.

[Joe Chi Minh]

52. Oh, the less competition their sprogs face, the happier they'll be.

[Orrin_73]

35. Tarik Ibn Ziyad was a Berber

The first Muslim invasion consisted of Berbers and Arabs under Tarik Ibn Ziyad, later Musa ibn Nusayr the north Africa governor of the Omayyads joined them with a larger army. The invasion was ordered by khalif Waleed. Some 80% of the population of Moorish Spain (Al-Andalus) were local converts the rest were Arabs and some Berbers. The Arabs were descendants of mostly Syrian and Yemeni clans. Blacks Africans were a very small minority in Al-Andalus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalus

[BrklynLiberal]

36. The Moors had an incredible influence in Spain..

The exquisite Alhambra,in Granada, once centre of the Moorish universe, unveils Spain's deep-rooted history under 700 years of Moorish occupation. The palace, its Alcazaba (fortress) and extensive gardens form the most important and the best-conserved Arabian palace of its era.


The Alcazar is a royal palace in Seville, Spain. Originally a Moorish fort, the Alcázar (from the Arabic القصر, al-qasr, meaning "palace")

[roody]

44. Tambien almohada, alfombra, alambre,

alberca, alcalde. Albondigas?!

[AlphaCentauri]

34. Some facts about the abolition of slavery in Mexico

1810 Miguel Hidalgo Abolish slavery and sets the war for the Independence of Mexico


1921 Spain recognize Mexico as an independent nation.

Human trafficking and slavery started right after in Texas as this document present some conservative numbers

The enslavement of African Americans was the curse of early American life, and Texas was no exception. The Mexican government was opposed to slavery, but even so, there were 5000 slaves in Texas by the time of the Texas Revolution in 1836. By the time of annexation a decade later, there were 30,000; by 1860, the census found 182,566 slaves -- over 30% of the total population of the state.
http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/treasures/earlystate/slavery-01.html

Mexico Inherited all the territories that were conquer by spain as it was recognize in the treaties signed by Spain and the US as the Adams-Onis treaty.

Spanish conquistador did not commit the genocide that was perpetrated in the south part of Mexico,actually they did move up north with out much resistant from indigenous people since they were more race tolerant and respectful of their traditions. Normally spanish man would marry indigenous women with out a problem.

The effort to make anglo conquistador victims of a Mexican dictatorship it's so weak for a simple reason, Mexico was in favor of FREEDOM anglos were in favor of slavery.

After the Mexican war Mexicans were discriminated the same way as Blacks they were isolated. Denying them education or keep them in separate schools, access to public and private areas was restricted for them. Many Mexican land owners lost their properties too.

[Joe Chi Minh]

14. It's interesting to reflect on de Baca's motivation for saying that.

People confident of their social/racial superiority wouldn't dream that anyone could think otherwise; which makes me suspect that he, himself, might well be of mixed blood. John Grisham mentions in one of his books that his protagonist was told by an Argentinian, that in fact, all Argentinians had some Indian blood, and I doubt if it was a fiction he dreamt up simply for the purposes of the story. I expect there are some full-blooded Spaniards in South America, but perhaps not as many as would be claimed, however tacitly.

In the UK, during the madness of the pristine Thatcher era, you would often hear someone clearly from a humble social background (such as mine), when interviewed by a TV reporter on the political topic of the moment, prefacing his or her remarks, sometimes with a pronounced regional accent, with the words, "I've voted Conservative all my life...", as if to say, "You know, you're dealing with someone of substance here..."

When the reality is that to natural Tories - monied, privately-educated people, whose parents and grandparents would have been privately educated, the notion that somebody could have thought otherwise would simply NEVER have occurred to them. And if it had, it would shock them to the core. It's who they are. To ask a Tory matron if she was a Conservative, would be like asking her husband if he'd had to take a knife and fork course to become an officer in the army. So, you would never ever hear such a person say, "I've voted Tory all my life, but.....", any more than they would publicly announce that they were privately educated, in an educational context. They SOUND like toffs, because they ARE toffs, for better for worse, warts and all.

It's not an exact correspondence, of course, but the priniciple seems the same. Also, people - mammals, for that matter - don't feel sufficiently threatened to assert themselves as competitively to individuals appreciably lower in the pecking order, generically, (and bear in mind we're talking "animal", worldly stature here, not real, spiritual merit) as they do towards individuals, lower but close to them in the pecking order. That's when self-assertion, competition and rivalry come into play, and are made apparent by the "top dog".

[Blaq Dem]

43. "The Great Chain of Being"

You're absolutely right. Right-winged philosophy is based on the "Great Chain of Being." They believe in a hierarchical society in which the rich people controls everything. Thus, we have "trickle down economics." It explains de Baca's assertions.

Great chain of being: Encyclopedia II - Great chain of being - Other subdivisions
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Great_chain_of_being_-_Other_subdivisions/id/1199810

[Joe Chi Minh]

45. Thank you. I should read it, but I've read and heard so much insanity by the

loony right-wing Establishment, I couldn't bring myself to read any of their nonsense voluntarily.

[Joe Chi Minh]

15. Accidental repetition.

[mikekohr]

21. The Legacy and Horror of the Spanish Invasion -from thewebsite of International Brotherhood Days-

FRANCISCO CORONADO: In the mid 1530's Coronado set in search of the mythic city of gold, Cibola. In his search he came upon the Zuni city of Hawikuh , looted it, drove off the inhabitants, and stayed until he exhausted the town's food supplies. Coronado then marched on the city of Tiguex and demanded food, shelter, blankets and women. When the people of Tiguex resisted, he slaughtered them. The Spanish captured over one hundred men and burned them at the stake. All the surviving women and children were taken as slaves and concubines. The following year he forced a man of the Pawnee Nation, called the "Turk," by his Spanish captors, to guide them to "Quivira," another mythical land that the Spanish believed was rich in precious metals and silk. When the Turk led them to the open, windswept plains, Coronado had The Turk garrotted to death for his failure to guide them to a place that did not exist. 31) 66)


DON JUAN ONATE: (Spanish explorer and military leader. A museum, a monument and a visitor center in Alcalde, N.M. were erected by U.S. taxpayers in his honor in 1992. Cuartocentenario, a year-long celebration to honor his memory, was held in 1997. The Acoma and Tompiro People have other memories of him. )

In 1599 Onate invaded and conquered the Acoma Pueblo. After three days of slaughter over 800 men, women, and children lay dead. Six hundred Acoma People were taken prisoner. Among other notable atrocities, he ordered the right foot cut off of every man over the age of twenty-five, and sentenced those that survived to twenty years of slave labor. Two Hopi men that were visiting Acomo at the time, each had a hand amputated by the Spanish and were sent home to their people as a warning of the power and might of the Spanish.1) 77).

Later Onate would demand food and blankets from the Tompiro People. When the Tompiro people did not immediately comply with Don Juan's demands, Onate unleashed his soldiers. After a six day battle the Spanish had destroyed three towns and murdered nearly a thousand men, women, and children. Another four hundred Tompiro people were captured and placed into slavery. 31)
In January of 1998, protesters chopped off the right foot of the statue erected to honor this man, and left a small shield with small clay feet attached to it. The shield was inscribed with the words, "The agony of defeat." 9)

While the statue of Don Juan Onate has lost its foot, it is apparent the Acoma and Tompiro People have not lost their sense of humor, or their understanding of history.
http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#DON%20JUAN%20ONATE

HERNANDO DESOTO:
On his sojourn across the southeastern U.S. he demanded food, gold and pearls of every Native tribe he met. And along this trail of robbery, he killed tens of thousands of Native people. 12). 77).



PONCE DE LEON:
Came to Florida, not to discover the fountain of youth, but rather, to capture Native people to sell into slavery in Haiti. 1)


link: http://www.brotherhooddays.com/Heroes.html

mike kohr

[mrih]

23. I am half hispanic half white

No way would I consider voting for the ghostly gringo.
.
.

[libertad]

28. Me, too.

There is no way!

[Joe Chi Minh]

38. Speaking as a bit of a mongrel, myself, I find him distinctly melanin-challenged.

[ooglymoogly]

25. Anybody who judges a man by the color of his skin

and not the content of his character is not worth the hogs head their phony faces are printed on no matter the quality of lipstick. To me pugs are high performance morons and none have proven me wrong.

[DustyJoe]

29. Good Riddance

Buh-Bye Fernando

[David__77]

39. But "Latinos" didn't "come here."

It shows how out of touch the GOP's "Hispanic outreach" is. Most "Hispanic" people in this country are not white but instead Mestizo and certainly don't identify as conquistadors.

[AlphaCentauri]

41. Very true, most hispanics identified them selves as descendants of the natives of the americas n/t

[lonestarnot]

40. So Nevada and NM piglicons are peas in a pod!

Fucking bigots!

[all.of.me]

42. The Hispanic community in NM is from Spain.

Don't ever call them Mexicans. You will see a fury like no other.

And, yes, they do have a sense of superiority. I have heard them say that they were here before the native people, yet they brag at how they have been here for over 400 years. They surely didn't like to see the Anglo contingency pull in in the late 1800s, since this is 'their' territory. They are the 'local' people.

I'm a minority here, and the discrimination is sometimes blatant, sometimes subtle, but always there. The locals feel that way about the Anglos, too, so what is the truth?

[Joe Chi Minh]

47. The truth is that your "Spanish", even if they have not interbred, would know

that the Anglos, much of whose arrogance post-empire still lingers, would look upon them as "dagoes", no different from the rest of the population. Just with more money and able to play a mean game of polo.

"The 'wogs' start at Calais" maybe overstating the attitude these days, but it is nevertheless indicative of the truth that racism can be a double-edged sword.