Rumsfeld: 'I Don't Regret' Europe Remark

[rodbarnett]

Feb 6, 8:04 AM (ET)

By ROBERT BURNS

MUNICH, Germany (AP) - Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Friday he does not regret having referred to France and Germany as "old Europe," a comment in 2002 that many Europeans took as an insult.

"I'm too old to have regrets," Rumsfeld said in an interview with several European journalists shortly before the start of a NATO defense ministers meeting. "No, I don't regret it."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040206/D80HP1O00.html

[Punkingal]

1. He should have said

"I'm too arrogant to have regrets," because that is what it is, plain old hubris.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

2. or

he could have said "I'm too old to have ever made any mistakes."

or he could have said "I'm old enough to have shaken hands with a young Saddam."

but then again, Rumsfeld could say a lot of things. What he usually winds up doing is lying - and I can kind of respect that, seeing as how that's his job.

It's up to us to not-so-much ensure that his lies are known, but rather to take away his job.

[DevilsAdvocate2]

3. Why should he regret saying it?

Do you think all the "Old Europeans" who spoke ill of the U.S. regretted saying it? After all, if we hadn't bailed them out twice, the entire continent would be speaking German & Russian by now.

[tanstaafl]

4. And there would not be a United States ...

If there French had not bailed us out during the Revolutionary war. And if there was not an ocean between us and Europe, then we might be speaking German and/or Russian as well.

[DevilsAdvocate2]

9. True

But let's not be confused on the motives of the French in offering us their help in the Revolutionary War. The only reason they were on our side is because they wanted to weaken Britain's world standing. Anyway, we made it up to them in WW1. Then we had to go save them again 20 years later!

[cheapbeemr]

15. 88% of German casualties in WW2 were inflicted by the Soviets

Flush out your headgear new guy.

[daveskilt]

17. did you know

that in world war one the US considered joining in on the german side? not surprising since German had very nearly become the official language of the US defeated in a narrow vote to make English the national language.

The US motives for joining in in Europe were not exactly pure. But when is war ever about right wrong or nobility. As some graffitti I saw on the Berlin wall once said. War doesnt prove whose right only whose left.

[Occulus]

20. Maybe that's because they

LOST an entire generation of young men twenty years before!!

SHEESH! Read some history!

edit: hopefully, in twenty years or so, the people who hold those attitudes will be too damn old to also hold power. And yes, Virginia, that would be a good thing....

[Voice_of_Europe]

27. same argument the other way...

" The only reason they were on our side is because they wanted to weaken Britain's world standing. "


What's the difference then?
The only reason the US helped "liberate" Europe was to weaken/stop the russian advance..

[displacedvermoter]

36. In the course of longstanding ties among nations,

there are times when one comes to the aid of another, when the chips are down. Tell you what, when North Korean troops are coming ashore in Washington and Northern California, France will be there for us.

Wise leaders don't chuck historic relationships with allies over a cheap ass oil grab like Iraq! We've actually made France look good on this one, and made ourselves look like buffoons.

Kinda hard to imagine, BTW, what things would have been like had we not "saved" all of Europe from Hitler. NO self interest there, eh?

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

39. Well, yeah...

but we dithered until 1917 to enter WWI! THE WAR HAD BEEN GOING ON FOR AT LEAST 3 YEARS!!!!!
That's why we "had to go save them again 20 years later!"
And perhaps if we'd entered the war when we should have, instead of dithering (AGAIN!) until we ourselves were attacked, perhaps France wouldn't have been so bad off.

Boy, you picked the wrong side of this argument.

[Flagg]

5. German is a beautiful language

[ze_dscherman]

7. WTF?

Merits to the U.S. for helping Europe to get rid of Hitlerism. But this has since become an excuse for U.S. dominance and bullying. Opposing the Empire attitude of the U.S. has nothing to do with not being thankful for help given in the past. But just like the Germany of today is very different from Hitlers Germany, the U.S. has changed a lot, too. It's not the vanguard of freedom and democracy.

Rumsfelds deliberate insult speaks volumes about this mans arrogance, and also about the arrogance of a system that allows him to come to power.

By the way, the entire continent speaks English now.

[daveskilt]

19. here here

[Voice_of_Europe]

30. entire continent speaks English now.

I love THAT argument!!

Really have to say that...
If I think about it... a little change in history and we would be learning Russian in school now and not even bother about it!

Internet language might be Russian too.

Eastern Germans learned Russian in school... skills that now help to tie bonds between German and growing Russian economy.

By the way:
Imagine Japan had won the war..? hehe
In fact I AM LERANING Japanese now.

And I predict many people will learn Chinese in the near future because those skills will be sought after soon. The Dragon awakes...

[Sterling]

37. Hey we saved them a while back

Why can't it be our turn to take over the world? Ungrateful bastards.....

[daveskilt]

45. american empire

SPQR!

[Bridget Burke]

8. "Old Europe" knows about war

The Great War was an idiotic loss of lives--a total waste. Afterward, the attempt to "punish" Germany fed the growth of Naziism. Part of the "appeasement" of Hitler grew from horror of the last war. A few sympathized with the Nazis, but most just didn't think they could be that bad. They'd been lied into the previous war--those bayoneted Belgian babies, you know? (Like the ones ripped from incubators in Kuwait.)

The truth about the Nazis was realized too late; another, worse war was the result. And why do you speak ill of the Russians? They were our allies in the Second War. If not for the valiant fight of the Russian people, defeating Hitler would have been far more difficult.

The world tried the surviving Nazi leaders for the crime of starting an aggressive war. Rumsfeld needs to read his history.

[daveskilt]

18. In punch magazine

a cartoon about the treaty of versailles showed Germany as a small boy with his briches down having been spanked. The thought sof the boy were "Revenge-1940" Punch were off by one year (1939- for the americans who think the war started in 1941) but WW2 and hitlers stellar economic plans that allowed him to come to power were all attributable to the hubris of the allies in seeking to punish germany so severly after WW1 (especially maddening since ww1 was a shared insanity of all the world leaders deperate to try ou t their new toys -dreadnoughts, aircraft etc.)

[daveskilt]

12. and if you hadnt sat around for 2 years

in world war two deciding whether or not to join in then America wouldnt have been in a position to profiteer off of selling to the decimated European nations who fought to stop the whole world speaking German (you think hitler would have stopped after Britain? and even worse you think that a young America in the 40's could have stopped him on their own??). America is a superpower only because of their almost total lack of involvement in world war one (100,000 american volunteers actually took part in any combat - shamefully used by the british as cannon fodder, but still far less than died in a single day at the somme or in mons) and their hesistance to enter what was perhaps the only justifiable large scale war in history to stop hitler. THat combined with vast untapped natural resources and the virtue of being the only industrialized nation not to be rebuilding gave the US the opportunity to become an economic power despite poor management.(just ask deming, ishikara or baldrige)

The "bailing out the europeans" idea is popular but not really rooted in fact. Yes the american contributions on half of the D-day beaches were neccessary to win, as were the british planes in the battle of britain that allowed d-day to happen, as were the contributions of all of the nations that stood in the way of madness. The reality is that most Europeans memory of americans in the second world war is far from positive. Arrogant, late, undisciplined, spoiled profiteers. They used to call them "overpaid, oversexed and over here" Ask the highland regiments who were bombed by american planes after surviving normandy. Ask the dutch regiments who waited for the americans to arrive while they were slaughtered.

European distaste for american hubris did not start with bushco.

[DevilsAdvocate2]

28. Profiteering?

"and if you hadnt sat around for 2 yearsin world war two deciding whether or not to join in then America wouldnt have been in a position to profiteer off of selling to the decimated European nations..."

Do you honestly think that we had a net economic gain when WW2 was all said and done? Considering that, in the U.S., metal and fuel were rationed, production of automobiles was all but halted so we could build jeeps & tanks, the majority of our working-age young men went overseas, and the fact that our assistance was not a loan, I find the profiteering argument suspect at best.

"The reality is that most Europeans memory of americans in the second world war is far from positive."

How do you know that "most" didn't view us in a positive light? And whatever their opinion of the soldiers, it does not change the fact that France stood no chance of liberating itself without U.S. intervention.

"Ask the highland regiments who were bombed by american planes after surviving normandy. Ask the dutch regiments who waited for the americans to arrive while they were slaughtered."

Undoubtedly there were friendly fire accidents, and undoubtedly U.S. troops couldn't be everywhere at once. Besides, if they didn't need U.S. help, why were Dutch regiments waiting for Americans to arrive? Why didn't they take care of the job themselves?

[daveskilt]

38. America had a relative gain

All of the other industrialized nations on earth were decimated. No bombs fell on the US except a couple on pearl harbor. The US was the only nation in a position to sell rebuilding to the European nations. There was of course a net loss for the US as always in war. but their net loss was miniscule comparatively this gave them a massive competative advsntage. Rationing in the US ended in 1945 and only was on industry. Rationing in Europe (on almost all goods food etc) continued until 1957. The only source for goods that could be traded for was the US. NO one else had enough for themselves at that point.

Profiteering is too strong of a word, but it is clear that only through this comparative advantage America became an economic power. (Deming, Ishikawa, Takaguchi, Baldrige and virtually anyone else who has written about this period in uindustry) To suggest that the americans should have demanded payment (as you assert it "was not a loan") is ludicrous. America was defending America by intervening in Europe.

The American Aid was absolutely neccessary in WW2 (not WW1) but it alone was certainly not enough and the Americans only entered the war when it became clear that they were next. Winning world war 2 was something not accomplished by John Wayne all on his own as so many American's like to believe.

You are correct I do not know that most Europeans felt negatively about Americans. I was refferring only to my anecdotal evidence. I am British and have lived and worked in 4 European countries and heard the phrase "overpaid, oversexed and (pech) over here" in several languages. I assumed most was the case since in my experience the negative perception applied to ALL of the individuals I know who were alive during that time.

I mention the friendly fire and support failure since the american military is world renowned in this respect. The inability of american pilots to recognize flags which are not thier own has been the end of many soldiers from all over the world. The cowboy mentality of the military is but one of the reasons that they are looked on in an unfavorable light.

I will always be greatful that America woke up and realized that even if they were not going to intervene for altruisms sake they should enter the war for their own survival. Had Europe been over run as it would have been without US aid. the US could not have stood against the third reich on its own.

If only The US and Europe could stand together again.

[Sterling]

40. You don't think the US was made stronger by WW2

Thats funny. It is pretty much universally acknowledged that WW2 put the US on the top of the pile.
Never mind that our oligarcs were funding Hitler until 1943 most notably Prescott Bush, until sanctioned by congress. Does any of that fit into your worldview?

[salin]

22. Did they speak ill of the US? Or just not agree with Bush policy?

Very different things.

The problem with Rummy's statements isn't a US patriotic pride thing, nor does it have anything to do with WWII. It has to do with intentional insults aimed at attempting to bully countries with whom we simultaneously needed their help in the war on terrorism (specifically ongong efforts in Afghanistan - where we pulled military, monetary and intelligence resources beginning in March 02 to prepare for a second gulf war... and where those who actually attacked the US were regrouping and resurging...) So in a long-term diplomatic sense, Rumsfeld was foolish. Another case of cutting the nose off despite the face.

[leesa]

23. Right, They opposed the illegal war so they were speaking ill of the US

They were RIGHT, weren't they. The US does really bad things and other countries have a right to say so. Get used to it!
As to the GOP arguement "bailing them out" If the Frendh hadn't helped the US, we would all be speaking English now and bowing down before the Queen.

[DevilsAdvocate2]

24. I'd like to point out

America IS speaking Engilsh :)

[Voice_of_Europe]

32. WHO might be speaking WHAT....

I'd like to point out that with just a slight change here and there...

America might be speaking German... (immigrants)

Germany might be speaking Russian... (WW2)

Russia might be speaking French (Napoleon)

France might be speaking German... (WW2)

Austria (and half Europe) might be speaking Turkish... (Turks "crusade")

North Africa might be (still) speaking French... (colonies

North America might be speaking French (quebec war)

India might be speaking English (colonies)

South China/ Korea/ Vietnam/ Hawaii might be speaking Japanese (WW2)

Eastern Europe might be speaking "Hunish" (Attila the Hun)

Half South America might be speaking German (so many ex-nazis there)

South America might still be speaking Aztecish!



And now the best of it:

THE UNITED STATES MIGHT STILL BE SPEAKING SIOUX, CHEYENNE, APACHE, ARPAOH, NAVAHO, PUEBLO, etc... (talking about genocide and wiping out nations by the dozen).


It doesn't matter what language your nation speaks...
It matters what other languages you learn to understand the others and hear with your own ears!

[Sterling]

41. Bravo

Does Europe have a corner on sanity these days? Maybe Europe has learned from their mistakes. My country does not like to find out we are wrong. We just can't accept not being #1 at everything even when we clearly are not.

[daveskilt]

42. hurrah for that last post!

history is good to know (I certainly wish more people did!)
but learning from it is the thing.

[Voice_of_Europe]

25. "Liberation" of Europe

A bit simple logic...
From the perspective of an occupied nation you cannot tell by which nation you'd rather like to be liberated, you know...
US got the west half... CCCP(UdSSR, Soviet) got the east half..
In the east half US was the bad guys... in the west half CCCP was the bad guys...
Both halves were occupied terretories and not really "free" nations
Both halves got nukes stationed in their territory to defend against the "evil" other half of Europe which didn't do any better.

I'm glad the Nazis got overthrown... but it took Europe 50+ years to find their real identity again. Europeans are not "Capitalists" or "Soviets", they're something else and they got caught between the lines for 50 years. Plus they mostly learned that war is not the answer.

By the way... did you know that there's so many German immigrants during 19th century that the question wether the standard language of the US should be English or German wasn't all that easy to answer...
Not to mention the tons of Russian immigrants.

^_^


Remember:
History is written by the winners and often doesn't have anything to do with truth.
And it is never simple...

[Sterling]

35. Wow right wing talking points

and anti Europe too? On DU?

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. Maybe he should have sung it

Altogether now, "Non, je ne regrette rien, non, rien de rien ..."

Well, it would have had a little class.

[JailForBush]

10. "Why, I'm older than old Europe!" N/T

[salinen]

11. "I'm too old to have regrets,"

translation: One doesn't get into a position as SOD and admit any failings.

[dArKeR]

13. 'too old to regret MURDER. No, I don't regret MURDERING innocent people.'

[salin]

14. ah the joys of being a delusional neocon... never having to say you're

sorry...

[teryang]

29. The man clearly is a lunatic

At this point, NATO is little more than a money making charade for the arms industries of American and Europe.

Rumsdoldt and Kagan's self serving evaluations notwithstanding, the Europeans loathe us at this point. They are just going through the motions as they plot their moves to both stay out of the way of and outmaneuver the 800 pound gorilla.

Secretly, nationalists in Europe would like to see this regime continue in power as they squander the resources and the influence of the greatest nation on earth.

[young_at_heart]

16. One more embarrassment for our country!

The rest of the world looks at the Bush Administration as a sort of "circus".......this just confirms it.

[GoldenOldie]

21. Bailing out Europe in WWII????

Individuals who make this claim to prove just how wonderful Americans are and how grateful the rest of the world should be to the Americans that weren't even born then ...know little of their history. WWII was fought on foreign soil to contain a monster ...Hitler and his Nazi party... who was trying to control the entire world.. European cities and their populations endured the actual horrors of war and our troops helped them to contain this war on foreign soil. If we did not help contain Hitler and Japan around the rest of the world, we as Americans might now be speaking German and many of our parents and grandparents would have died from the very same horrors that the "Europeans" endured. WWII was a fight for freedom and democracy for all of us and Americans banded together to help fight this ever creeping monster and we buried many of our young on foreign soil, which is now maintained by the sons and daughters of those foreigner's.

[Voice_of_Europe]

33. thank you...

That post speaks from the depth of my heart!

[Sterling]

43. I hate that some act like we did them a favor

Like stopping Hitler was only something "Old Europe" should have been interested in.

The facts are much more shaddy as we played both sides for sometime and waited far to long to act. Unlike Iraq which was threatening no one adn we just so happen to profit enormously from (some of us).

[daveskilt]

44. As a European...I hate it too!

glad to see most people here DO know their history on DU at least

[Voice_of_Europe]

34. sad circus..

It's a sad circus though...
Funny as long as nobody gets hurt... and many got hurt meanwhile...

[young_at_heart]

46. Apology to Europeans.........we are not all like them (Bushies)!

There are many of us who despise what this group has done to our country and are aching to have these pretenders leave. I've been to Europe many times and the thought of insulting you in such a way just turns my stomach.......please know that (hopefully) such people are a small minority.

[Barkley]

26. Good "Old Europe" was right!

[Mari333]

31. That moron!!! right now we need to be begging for UN support

to get our kids OUT of that BLOODbath and quagmire they are in and that asshole with claws deals yet another blow to our already destroyed International Relations? OH and RUMMY doesnt HAVE a KID on the front lines in Iraq does he?
Chickenhawk bastard! How dare he straing International relations even further??? we need the UN more then EVER and he says this??
Egotistical arrogant Bastard! putting OUR kids on the line so he can save his lying face.