'The Righteous Army' On Rise

[dArKeR]

Evangelicals - Christians who place a personal relationship with Jesus Christ above all else - have become a major factor in American politics and culture, says a prominent Christian theologian.

They now number an estimated 70 million, have several prominent American leaders, including President Bush, among their ranks and their beliefs are echoed in an emerging conservative movement.

Correspondent Morley Safer reports on evangelicals on 60 Minutes, Sunday, Feb. 8, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.
"Evangelicals ...have waited in the wilderness and now, in the fullness of time, they have come into possession of what they felt was once rightfully theirs," says the Rev. Peter Gomes, a Baptist theologian at Harvard University.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/05/60minutes/main598218.shtml

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. But if they have a personal relationship with Jesus

then they don't need preachers telling them what to think. Jesus's message was one of peace and tolerance, which isn't what is often preached by such preachers.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. the bible

ever notice how these people always quote things from the bible that Jesus himself did not say (like the leviticus) but downplay words that actually belonged to jesus (let he amongs us who has not sinned cast the first stone etc.?)
]


also wasnt jesus against mixing religion and politics especially when politicians used religion for an advantage

[alittlelark]

21. I've chatted with my Fundie mother about these issues

She CONTINUES to quote the Old Test. during the conversations. She cannot find one thing Jesus said that would allow for this war to be righteous. She gets confused, disoriented, and starts yelling. It is sad.

She is a very smart woman (in computers 30 years ago!) But now has been convinced she is not very bright, and needs the help of her hybrid Evangelical/Jewish church/synagogue. She awaits the rapture with eyes wide shut.:cry:

[Just Me]

37. "Using" God to benefit oneself IS taking his name in vain,...

,...one of the top three no nos. But, apparently, if your "saved" you can do it all you want to so long as you confess regularly :(

[stevedeshazer]

2. And they hate you and me

I wish they would heed the words of the man/god they profess to believe in.

[Shadder]

5. Fat chance of that

Unless your talking about King George the Idiot or St Pat.

[Turley]

27. That is an ignorant and bigoted comment

You know, as an atheist, I have a vested interest in making sure that certain elements of the Religious Right never achieve the kind of power they'd like to. OTOH I have a number of friends, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim who are "deeply religious" and let me tell you something Stevie, they don't "hate" you or me.

If you have specific issues with specific people (say, Pat Robertson) that's one thing. But it does absolutely no good to engage in massive generalizations like you have just done. It's an insult to a lot of very decent people.

[stevedeshazer]

35. I'm sorry to offend you

And I am sorry if I offend the very decent religious people you speak of here. I know many such people and respect them.

But I will not apologize for my beliefs, which I think you have misconstrued. And I challenge you to tell me why you think these 70 million people quoted in the article don't hate people like me.

I am also an atheist. My comments referred to the so-called religious right Calvinist-style in-your-face Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell wing. That is what the original post was about.

I was raised and trained in Lutheran faith, and I very well understand and respect those who continue to believe in it, or any other religion for that matter.

This was not a 'massive generalization', and I frankly resent that implication. My post was brief, and contained nothing about your accusation. Being called bigoted and ignorant is one of the highest of insults to me. I wish you would say specifically what about my post offended you, so that I may learn from it and become a better human being.

I will take at face value your comment that you are an atheist, but all the atheists I know would never have reacted this way.

Looking forward to your response,

Steve

[stevedeshazer]

48. It would be nice if you responded, however.

:-)

[Turley]

62. Sorry Chum

I live in a different time zone so I can't always answer the same day.

Saying a full 25% of America's population hates the other 75% is indeed a massive genarlization and a silly one at that. Certainly there are some folks who fit the bill. But not everyone who is deeply religious, or who is even politically active on the other side of the aisle, automatically hates everyone else. I'm sure you know of exceptions to this as you yourself have said you know and respect many people who are deeply religious.

I just think you shouldn't be so casual about throwing around such accusations and reserve them for the truly mean-spirited people who truly deserve them. Not being specific leaves you open to the charge of religious bigotry. JMHO

[stevedeshazer]

63. fair enough

Though I still don't think my post rose to that level. Thanks for your response.

[callous taoboy]

80. I like to think

that this horrible mini-revolution in the hard-core religious right (thanks to bush's phony religiosity) is a last, dying gasp. They can boast all they want about their swelling ranks, but there are plenty of us as well and we are everywhere.

[saskatoon]

81. To Turly

Don't be so damn uptight, splitting hairs!

[peacetalksforall]

40. I say they hate people who they think are immoral.

This is common among Christian and Muslim fundamentalists.

[peacetalksforall]

41. And both Christians and Muslims hate infidels.

They both spew contempt for many sectors of people.

[JCMach1]

56. That is the xenophobic American line about Muslims

Yes...

99% of Muslims are very open and tolerant... It's the 1%ers who cause all the problems.

[Occulus]

55. Actually, if you apply what the poster said

to fundamentalists of ANY religion... it's pretty damn accurate. Universally.

[Shadder]

4. And hardly any of them are Christians

Sounds like a good time to ask the question, WWJD?

[HawkerTyphoon]

66. WWJD: What would Jesus do?

According to a bumper sticker I saw this summer, the better question would be:

WWJB: Who Would Jesus Bomb?

[progressivebydesign]

78. I do wonder WWJD about industries that make money off "believers"?

You know.. I was thinking about that the other day. I saw, yet another, product in a window with an image of Jesus and a bible verse. I thought.. wow.. if there actually IS a Jesus or God, what in the world would they think of people making millions and millions of dollars by commercializing them? It's BIG business. It's a group like football fans, or dog-lovers, or equestrians. They are a target market, and companies are falling all over themselves to get a piece of that pie.. for those Christian supplies.

Wonder what kind of world we'd have if a fraction of that money from that market was used to help people.. the way Jesus would have done, according to the very gospel they preach. Once something is corporatized, it grows.

[DenverDem]

6. Fundamentalists aren't Christians.

They are closer to the legalistic Old Testament establishment Jews of Jesus' time that Jesus transcended. Jesus' message of grace, forgiveness and agape love are antithetical to the judgmentalism of contemporary evangelical extremists.

[rockymountaindem]

7. Are you calling Judaism an antiquated religion?

[Dhalgren]

13. Oh, come on

most religions are antiquated. Any movement, or system of belief that is perported to have not changed in over two-thousand years can be call antiquated - even Islam (a new comer at less than 1500 years) is antiquated. Buddhism clocks in at over 2500 years - jeez, can't we come up with anything new anymore?

[0007]

26. ...and Buddhism came after Hinduism

The mother of all regilions...of course the Jews will argue this point.

[Jackpine Radical]

76. And Hinduism is a variant of the generic Indo-European

"pagan" system that worshipped Zeus/Tyr, Mercury/Odin, etc.

[SpiralHawk]

44. The Teachings of this Turtle Island continent of North America

go back a minimum of 30,000 years-- and have been given expression over the millennia in a variety of religious forms on this land, forms both pure and perverted.

But the core teachings -- sometimes called the Original Instructions -- transcend and out-live the petty institutions of religions.

In my understanding, one of those teachings is tolerance for different beliefs and belief systems. They are all part of the sacred hoop. It was said long ago that people of different colors holding a great variety of differnet beliefs would come to Turtle Island someday. Everything would work out fine, the elders said, if the newcomers had respect for what was already here when they arrived. Otherwise, in time Mother Earth would become sick and begin to exert herself to restore balance.

Some things are eternal. I count the Sacred Hoop in this, and I count for myself alone from a base of knowledge, not of belief.

Belief is for religions. Knowledge is for spirituality.

[Voice_of_Europe]

68. wonderfully said...

[Voice_of_Europe]

67. Trying to be an atheist

But it's not that easy at all to believe in nothing.

Mankind always tries to believe in some higher power else it would collapse under the sheer weight of responsibility or sorrow for all the bad things that happen

The question: "Why did <insert event here> happen to me?" always raises the need of a god figure.


by the way:
There is even a theory that faith is deep in our genes! That faith in fact IS A RESULT OF EVOLUTION.
That individuals with faith could more easily survive horrible events and continue to live and function in social live... where others couldn't bear to live on or died of sorrow...
SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.

[DenverDem]

15. Judaism has evolved a lot in 2000 years

but during Jesus' era they were judgemental legalists that had lost their spiritual connection to the Prime Creator.

I am a Christian, a real Methodist (not like Bushler), and as such do prefer the New Testament, however.

[Dhalgren]

17. According to the New Testament

Jesus instructed his followers by using parables. If Jesus was God and came to tell us the truth and determined that the best way to do it was with parables, then why is the Bible supposed to be "absolute turth" in every word? If the Bible is "God-inspired" or the "living word of God" wouldn't it be a long parable, too? Just wondering about that - I've asked that before, but haven't gotten a genuine answer.

[HawkerHurricane]

8. Pharasees and Saducees...

If Jesus came again, the fundamentalists would be the first ones to nail him to the cross again.

They prefer Leviticus, Dueteronomy and (selected) writings of Saul of Tarsus to the Gospels... and prefer the Gospel of John to the Synoptics; they'd rather do mysticism than help thier fellow man.

[Taeger]

12. Jesus would

If Jesus came to Earth again, he would turn over their tables. They aren't Christians, they're money-changers. He would upend every building on K-Street.

[Exultant Democracy]

22. Exactly,

If todays fundies came into contact with Jesus they would probably wait till he got on a small aircraft and down it.

[alittlelark]

51. Or Jesus might turn them into pillars of salt

or some other form of biblical 'smiting':eyes:

[DoYouEverWonder]

9. 70 million Evangelicals - Christians

who place a personal relationship with Jesus Christ above all else? That would be like a third of the country? I don't think so?

[Dhalgren]

11. I agree with you.

There may be 70 million "card carrying" Christians, most of those are not "fundamentalists". I heard or saw the term "Christianist" used to refer to the fundies. The idea was that they weren'r really "Christians" per se, but just used Christianity as a political tool, or wedge. I always liked that term - "Christianist", it seems more apt.

[maveric]

20. About a quarter of the population. That I believe is exaggerated.

Like most that comes from the likes of that camp.

[colonel odis]

29. i agree. 70 mm is way too high

i read not too long ago that the hard-core evangelicals represent only about 1.5 million voters. i wish i could remember where i saw that, but the gist of the piece was about how their importance is overstated. (god, don't tell them that.)

[bleedingheart]

28. Isn't LYING breaking God's law?

I think that there are less than half that amount.

What a crock! They are overstating their numbers like Enron to boost potential "investor" confidence...

and like Enron they will end up being shown for the fraudulent christians they really are.

[JaySherman]

33. You don't think so?

Then how is it that half the country still supports * :shrug:?

[Snazzy]

36. That number is whacked

If that were true, I'd probably just move, let the American Taliban have it.

Think I'll email CBS. Always love that "number estimated at" sentences that don't say who did the estimating.

[I tend to picture a Nightwatchman and Chief CBS Estimator Billy-Roy 'you got my cheese whiz, boy' Spackler "So how many evangelicals are there Billy-Roy?" "It's huuuuge, man, huuuuge, they'un everywhere. There's like five, six, 70 million of 'em. Hey, you got any more donuts?" "There you have it.")

[Tims]

73. Membership vs Belief

I'm sure they simply looked at denominations which could be classified as "Evangelical" and simply summed up their published membership figures. Church membership numbers are usually highly inflated, but this hardly matters. Membership in a particular denomination has more to do with what denomination your parent's were than any conscious choice and belief in a doctrine. Most members, especially of the larger denominations, such as Southern Baptists, rarely swallow the whole doctrine of their churches and I would venture a guess that a majority would have a hard time even telling you what those doctrines are.

[callous taoboy]

10. Sure, you betcha

and does anyone here know who the Ewoks are? Nevada. You'll see.

[BadGimp]

14. God help us all - save us from these Religous Radicals

[Dhalgren]

18. I love that bumper sticker!!

.

[Thoth]

16. The Christian Right...

is neither Christian or right!

(how about that for a bumper sticker!) - in Georgia ;-)

[DinahMoeHum]

23. That sticker IS available. . .

go to www.evolvefish.com and click under "stickers" and/or "buttons"


:evilgrin:

[Thoth]

38. Thanks for the link...

Frank!

[Dhalgren]

19. These guys are the new "Flat-Earthers"

only mean, with lots of money. All of their "beliefs" are based upon outdated and grin-inducing myths that have been debunked too many times over the past 2000 years to count. Spirituality is a personal thing that should stay that way - to turn it into a political movement (as Judaism, Islam, and Christianity have always been) is to completely void the spiritual value of the concept.

[schultzee]

24. They don't know that the devil is really whats guiding them.

[proud patriot]

25. well this should ensure my gop grandparents not vote for bush

they are not repuke for religious reasons

[ixion]

30. great... let's just throw intellectual advancement back

to the Middle Ages.

It's stuff like this that leads me to believe that we are truly and deeply screwed as a 'civilization'.

[Skittles]

31. those phony bastards better stay away from me

I am SICK of religious fanatics who can support a man who illegally invades countries and kills innocent people. It's SICKENING.

[Voltaire99]

32. Meet the American Taliban: evangelicals

Their aim is theocracy. Stop them if you care about pluralism and civil liberties; otherwise prepare to live under medievalism.

[leftofthedial]

34. so 1 out of 4 Americans is mentally ill

go figure.

[jokerman93]

39. You may be technically correct about that

You may be technically correct about that considering the massive drug campaigns to hawk antidepressents and impotence drugs. There's obviously a vast market out there.

A large percentage of our population has been humiliated and pacified -- and they don't know it.

Yet.

[banana republican]

65. And 50% have below average IQ's??? must be republicans

[peacetalksforall]

42. Why do Fundamentalist Evangelicals

express hate for those who support pro-choice
express hate for performers and celebrities
express hate for foreigners, homosexuals, and people of color in varying degrees
but
love guns
love the death penalty
love the loss of rights
and want to rewirte the Constitution?

[leftofthedial]

43. either "Satan" works in mysterious ways

or they are mentally ill.

or both.

[Toots]

45. they have come into possession of what they felt was once rightfully their

Scary words

[Occulus]

59. I've held the opinion for years

that the Roman Catholic Church, specifically, but in concert with other sects of Christianity, has been PISSED for over 200 years- ever since a nation was founded in which their organization held NO OFFICIAL POWER at all.

I think these organizations- so myopic it took HOW long to say Galileo was right?- are and have been plotting and planning since the US was founded to usurp is secularism and rewrite the laws filtered through the Bible. If you don't believe me, go take a look at some past big issues of the day:

Slavery abolishment
Prohibition
Votes for women
Desegregation of ethnicities
Women's libertaion
Gay rights

In every case, the argument is made BY religious leaders that "this is wrong based on the Bible, which says..." while they then proceed to be untouchably ignorant. We can't even acceptably CALL it ignorance, because it's based on their religion, and to call them ignorant for it makes us religious bigots.

I really am starting to think the top leaders of the RC Church really would love to control the US. They are, now, terrifyingly close to their goal. An inside source with a connection to the USDA claims that RFID chips will be mandatory for animals and- get this- HUMANS, by the end of this summer. This is, by the way, connected to a possible flu outbreak here that is not yet public knowledge, but will be painted as a response by the USDA to mad cow. Mark of a beast, anyone?

(According to this person, several very ill people were recently on a flight from Europe to DC and NO, it wasn't THOSE flights, this is different and unreported as yet because... get ready.... this could be The Big One. Pandemic. Superflu. Captain Trips. 70%-80% communicable, 70% fatality rate. So this person says.)

Eight or nine days until the first news reports about this new flu trickle out. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong... we'll see. Juuuust in case, I'd get some portable food, water, and effects ready in case you need to leave in ten minutes.

I've already done so, and am only waiting for the feces to impact with the high-speed air mobility device.

[Occulus]

61. not to reply

to my own post, but the editing period has expired:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=345882

Urgent meeting in Rome about the bird flu. Wow! Who woulda thunk it?

[Thor_MN]

46. Evangelistic Democracy. Bush's very own oxymoron

For lack of a better term (or policy) Evangelistic Democracy is what I call *'s foreign policy. Democracy tolerates evangelism well - everyone has the right to their own opinion and to express it.

Evangelism, on the other hand, does not deal with Democracy well. The whole purpose of trying to shove your opinion's down other's throats is thwarted if everyone has the right to their own opinion and can tell the evangelist to take a flying leap.

[jdunn]

47. Religions are not the problem

it's the conservative elements within those religions, particularly the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In this globalized environment, it will take nothing short of a global alliance between the liberal elements of these three religions, whose numbers vastly exceed the conservative elements, in order to bring things back into balance.

Oh yeah, and we need to stop electing dangerously greedy bastards too.

[onager]

49. "70 million?" Take that with a grain of salt the size of Mrs. Lot...

NEVER trust the numbers trumpeted by religions! For decades now, the Catholic Church has claimed 60 million Americans are Catholic.

The problem is, the Church counts members like Republicans count votes. They count everyone who is baptized Catholic. Baptism, of course, happens when those "members" are helpless infants and can't defend themselves. The Church apparently doesn't count any of those who later leave its musty embrace.

For the record, I was baptized a Southern Baptist but have been a very happy atheist for many years now. Even my old church still sends me propaganda, and probably counts me as a "member."

If you want ACCURATE information about religion in America, the best source I've found is The Barna Group. Their URL is http://www.barna.org.

Owner George Barna is a Fundamentalist Christian himself, but AFAIK, he never lets that interfere with his polls. Unlike Pat Robertson or the AFA, Barna puts his methodology right on the site so you can see how the poll was conducted.

Barna's findings habitually enrage other Fundies, which always makes me smile. The section on "Politics and Religion," for example, will tell you that even during the height of Monicagate, Bill Clinton's approval rating among Evangelical Christians was almost the same as it was for all Americans: nearly 70 per cent.

As I remember, even Mr. Barna was amazed by that finding, but he was honest enough to report it.

Onager

[leesa]

50. Anyone who would respect Bush and DeLay are simply nasty

human beings. This GOP fake christianity has got to go!

[Snazzy]

52. CBS Feedback Form

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/feedback/fb_news_form.shtml

That 70 million is whacked. 'Splain it to them.

[Snazzy]

53. Did some Google--70 million WORLDWIDE

Which is the key word we are missing here.

I doubt that I'm alone in getting the impression from the article that he was talking about just America.

[JCMach1]

54. They ARE NOT 70 million-- they just THINK

they are...

:grr:

[Rex]

57. If only these assholes would hurry up and Rapture

Let us pray

[Wapsie B]

58. The term

Evangelical Christian does not automatically mean that someone's a fire-breathing reich-winger. It just means that a person is a member of a Protestant church with the Gospels the cornerstone of its teachings. I'm Lutheran and belong to the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.

This is just another spin article for the wingnuts, trying to inflate their numbers and make them seem more important than they really are. The true strength in Christianity in this country is not the konservative fundies, but the mainstream Evangelicals. It's just that we've spent so many years being so polite and accommodating to these blasphemers and heretics on the right that we've allowed them to hijack the very definition of Christianity.

[FDRrocks]

60. fuck them...

Evangelicals think they can rule the state. Yea, right. What a democracy that is.

[nolabels]

64. "accusing my Democratic friends of being ungodly"

Saying they are not, but the rub of every other word is that way. Removing that monument to "TEN COMMANDMENTS" from public lands is the best thing that these crazies could of hope for. That one that is most interesting to me is this one of bearing false witness.

This article and story must be some kind of kiss up for the MTV Super-Bowl Halftime show. Viacom sure seems to want to stick a lot fingers in the pie

The last couple of sentences from the article really get me wondering if their are rational people in whole lots of these people

"I don't think the media has really caught on," says the Rev. Tim LaHaye, co-author of the "Left Behind" novels. "An enormous number of people have come to faith in Christ and consider themselves evangelical Christians...people that are buying, reading and distributing our books."

Some find the Rapture a problematic idea in today's diverse society, a controversy the other "Left Behind" author, Jerry Jenkins, understands. "I realize that our message is inherently offensive and divisive, especially in this new age of tolerance," says Jenkins. "But I am telling you this because I really do believe it."

It does seem ironic with all wisdom and knowledge and even spawning the invention of the printing press this collection of books called the "Bible" they would need say and do things like they do.

Going as far as to put the rest of the population that they don't totally agree with or want to understand in their inventive but contemporary ways into some other separate and other group. This other group they are being put out in, is the new age of tolerance making it okay to be offensive, under their religions doctrines. To me that whole thing sounds offensive. To be so twisted as to make the idea of good will twords others a anathema.

[progressivebydesign]

77. Left Behind for Children?

Those books, that cash cow for the writers, are reprehensible. My husband's ex-wife bought one for their daughter (ex is born-again). When I looked up passages from the book online, we flipped. Can you imagine giving a child a book in which the story goes... God calls all believers to heaven. Those that did not SPECIFICALLY say they were born-again believers, were left on Earth to battle an evil UN-like organization headed by a guy that (oddly enough) looks like Bill Clinton! The kids who were not believers are left behind while their parents and perhaps other siblings go to heaven. The Left Behind kids encounter teachers and peers who have turned into killers, there are stabbings, shootings, and killings. All the kids have to do is to find the way to accept Jesus, in the RIGHT way, and they can join their family. Seriously. It's that simplistically, (and badly) written. If you read the reader reviews online, by the kids, you'd freak out. They talk as though this is a true story.. that this is a prophesy, and they say that they're glad that they accepted Christ, so they won't be LEFT BEHIND.

I lived in a town full of evangelical Christians. I never want to be near them again. Ever. Try having your child in a public school full of them. Bible study at the elementary school 3 times a week. My stepdaughter was left out socially at school because she was not a "Christian". For school book reports, the kids would use the Bible, or the Left Behind books. The kids would get in arguments in class over who was more Christian amongst them. Never, ever again will I live in a nest of them. I'd rather see people who proclaim to be Christians do things in a Christian spirit, like help other people.. not JUST their fellow Christians. And.. I'd like them to use even a quarter of the money they spend to try to convert other people or build these mega-churches, on helping people.

It makes me ill to see how Bush is working that angle. I guarantee he's not a born-again. He's completely ignorant on the subject. It's political ploy... and it's sick.

[bspence]

69. Scary shit n/t

[Solly Mack]

70. I'm so sick of fundies

With any luck, we are already living in tribulations..just imagine the look on a fundies face to discover the rapture has passed his ass on by...

I'm not even a believer but such would be worth the laugh...

[chelsea0011]

71. Two words..Pat Robertson...

Lest anyone think the religious right matters, he was flattened in his run for the White House. And there was concern about the religious right rising up to make him a viable candidate back then. It never happened. God takes a back seat to jobs, health, and education issues.

[Faygo Kid]

72. Damn them for hijacking and perverting Christ's message.

Read the Beatitudes (Sermon on the Mount). How do these right wingers get away with hijacking such a beautiful message? The Christ they worship - a vindictive, judgmental Christ who favors the rich - is nowhere to be found in the Gospels as I read them. They can have Pat Robertson. I prefer Rev. King.

[Unforgiven]

74. Right Wing Religious Extremists

may well be the most dangerous threat to our country. These people need to be watched very carefully.
It is my understanding that PNAC aligns itself with these freaks of nature as well. And PNAC is well funded by corporate extremists.

[The Animator]

75. I was raised a devot Catholic...

It is what has made me the fine Atheist that I am today.

Actually, I don't know if I am truly Atheist or not... I would like to beleive that there is some benevolent being out there looking out for the little guy, and that there is some level of existence after death... but I have just given up trying to assure my place in a better world, and have re-applied my efforts to try and get by in this one.

When asked what I believe, I tell people I believe in the Force. At heart, I am a Jedi Knight, only without all the cool powers. I find that this really pisses off Southern Baptists...

May the Force Be With You. :P

[hoscot]

79. Cromwellian?

England under Oliver Cromwell,Inquisition, Salem: history tells us what can happen when religion gets control of national power.
Another term of office for neocromwellian Bush might not lead to burnings at the stake...or yes?

[Guinness]

82. I've never met a true Christian

Jesus commanded his followers to sell their belongings and follow him. Yet, I've never seen a Christian do this.

Jesus said it's impossible for a rich man to get into heaven. Yet rich Christians are everywhere.

Jesus told his followers to pray in private, and not be like the hypocrites who pray on the street corner to show everyone how pious they are. Yet American Christians insist on praying at public sporting events and in schools.

Seems to me Christians only follow the bible passages that they find convenient. That's why I don't them seriously.