Chavez ally says coup plot discovered in Venezuela

[Satyagrahi]

Source: Associated Press

CARACAS, Venezuela: A close ally of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez says a plot to oust the leader has been discovered.

Chavez ally Mario Silva, who hosts a program on state television, played a recording late Wednesday of a purported phone conversation in which alleged conspirators discussed plans to overthrow Chavez.

Silva said Vice Admiral Carlos Millan was among them, along with two other ex-officers from the National Guard and the air force.

In the recording aired, a voice identified as an ex-officer said "we're going to take" the presidential palace.

Read more: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/09/11/america/LA-Venezuela-Chavez.php

---

Video and transcript here (in Spanish):

Intentona Golpista contra Chávez-VER VIDEO
http://www.semana.com.ve/article.php?id=1670

Mario Silva, La Hojilla, Descubiertos planes de golpe de estado militar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug4qVB_JgjI

[Bob Dobbs]

1. Under orders from the CIA.

US out of Venezuela!

[WriteDown]

2. Starting to sound a lot like Stalinist Russia....

Of course the threat will be eliminated and Dear Leader will be held up as a hero. Hope I am wrong, but time will tell.

[Dogtown]

4. No, sounds more like

a CIA black op.

[WriteDown]

6. You work for them or are you just intimately familiar

with them? :eyes:

[Xipe Totec]

8. Are you a Sovietologist? n/t

[WriteDown]

9. No,,,,

But history is pretty thorough on Stalin and his "methods." Its still being written on Hugo.

[Dogtown]

21. History is also thorough

on abuses by American imperialists, and interference in the internal affairs of sovereign nations.

Including the use of our intelligence services to tarnish the reputation of any duly elected leftist government.

How conveniently you cherry-pick. One might suspect that you have an agenda.

[WriteDown]

27. You sound like the one who has an agenda

I don't deny that at all, but that doesn't mean its the case every time. And it doesn't make Chavez' every word into gospel either. You are the one eliminating possibilities. I have an open mind. Except when it comes to Stalin in this case since the book has pretty much been written on him.

[ngant17]

48. "that wonderful Georgian"

The record of Stalin or "Koba" (Joseph Vissarionovich Dzugashvili) has been terribly distorted in the English-speaking world. The ruling capitalist classes, and their academic toadies, have needed to attack Stalin and they found the most convenient way of attacking him to utilize the mythology spread by Trotsky about him.

Stalin used the name "Koba" because that was the name of the hero of a Robin Hood novel about a Georgian who stole from the rich and gave to the poor. Joseph continued to use Koba as his first name in the pre-revolutionary, underground world of the RSDLP (Russian Social Democratic Labor Party).

Stalin came from the most oppressed sector of Georgia's working class would-be petit bourgeois population.

Stalin had gone to prison seven times and escaped six times when the First World War broke out in August of 1914.

At this time, world markets and cheap-labor power (in the colonies) was only one objective of the world war the capitalists had launched. The other was the equally important objective of killing as many million supernumeraries, unwanted, and dangerously restive socialistic/communistic European working class males as possible!
Lenin understood this and so did his principal Bolshevik followers.

Of all of them, it was Joseph Stalin, a direct victim of all the evils of his time, who perhaps more than any other, understood in his very soul the truth's of Marx's and now Lenin's understanding.

Lenin recognized these qualities in Stalin, calling him "that wonderful Georgian."

[WriteDown]

52. Joseph Stalin....

The victim and hero?!?! Now I've heard it all. I'm sure this gives comfort to the 10's of millions that went missing. Who are we going to start praising next, Hitler and record on public transportation?

[Taverner]

68. ?????

There are thousands of individuals who will testify Stalin was a genocidal maniac. Just like Mao. Just like Hitler. Just like Pinochet. Just like Franco. Just like Mussolini. The list goes on.

Oh, you could ask Beria too. He was his 'closest' friend. Remember Lao Tse: Keep your friends close; your enemies, closer.

[iamthebandfanman]

90. stalin bastardized communism

and he was a complete ruthless asshole...

other marxist were jailed to several times, why that should mean anything positive about stalin is beyond me...

unfortunately trotsky was right, and payed the consequences for it....

i think if lenin were alive, hed be ashamed of the legacy stalin left...
fortunately for him, he died long before stalin could assassinate him

[LanternWaste]

55. The two prognostications posed

The two contrary prognostications posed seem like nothing more than six of one and half a dozen of the other. Yet there seems to be an implied qualifier that for one scenario, expertise is required while the other doesn't require it. :shrug:

[freedomnorth]

100. What year did Stalin phased coup?

My memory is not so well now.

[ronnie624]

24. You don't seem to have much time to devote to reading about history.

Can you explain the reasoning for your comparison of Hugo Chavez to Joseph Stalin?

[WriteDown]

30. Yeah, because you've offered so many examples...

:eyes:. I only compared the tactic of finding "traitors" and eliminating them. Stalin did this to the tune of millions. May not be the case here and I hope its not, but I remain suspicious of everyone as always.

[ronnie624]

31. What examples would I offer?

Your statement has no meaning.

[WriteDown]

32. You commented on my knowledge of history...

I didn't realize I had to detail examples of Stalin's methods. I will be happy to oblige if that is the case.

[ronnie624]

46. I can find information about Stalin anytime I wish.

This topic is about U.S. meddling in Venezuelan national affairs.

You compared Chavez to Stalin, and I simply asked you to explain the reasoning behind your comparison. Surely such a request is not unreasonable on a website devoted to political discussion.

Can you explain the reasoning behind your claims or not?

[bitchkitty]

83. He can't explain the reason, but I can explain the tactic.

It's the same method of deception that this admin (and the media) use to present Iraq as somehow responsible for 9/11. Say it enough times and it will stick in the public consciousness.

It's no accident that we get a lot of dumb-ass parroting of the dictator line, with no evidence to support that claim. It's because of this kind of lying, false logic and deliberately misleading analogies.

Some people are intellectually lazy and buy into the lies, because it's easier to believe than to question. Others deliberately deceive.

They suck.

[freedomnorth]

102. Remember what Joseph Goebbels said

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

[ronnie624]

104. Thanks for the ever timely reminder.

His diaries are fascinating.

[ForeignSpectator]

11. You're acting as if these things didn't happen before in South America.

and as if the CIA had nooothing to do with them.

Have you heard of the "Shock Doctrine"? Very interesting book, not on Venezuela specifically but it gives you an idea about what went on in other South American countries. And the OP is absolutely possible to be true...

[WriteDown]

14. I have no doubt the CIA has been involved in many countries...

in South America. But I don't believe every single accusation thrown against them. They must be pretty incompetent if they are continually being caught by Hugo though, Ha.

[Dogtown]

22. Yet you insist on believing

every single accusation made against Chavez. How selective!


Hmmm...

[WriteDown]

26. I don't believe ANYTHING...

I maintain a healthy level of doubt about everything. Unlike many others who rush to praise St. Hugo.

[Mudoria]

34. We could only hope the CIA were that

efficent and accomplished. They do make a great scapegoat when anything goes wrong though.

[ForeignSpectator]

78. Truth is, from our keyboards we can't really tell 100% certain what is going on...

and that it's entirely possible for the OP to be true we can agree on, too, I think.

But Stalinist Russia? I don't know... I don't think they held a lot of referendums like this one in Stalinist Russia...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/12/3/04422/7447

And while he is a buffoon to many, there is no doubt in my mind about at least a motivation (among you know who) to have him removed.

[Dogtown]

16. How long did you live under

Stalinists?

My response was supposed to point out to you that your post was highly speculative and probably based on your lack of knowledge (as mine clearly was). Since you're unsubtle, I'll just state my point: you barge in on every thread about Chavez with the same cant, and with nothing to support your hatred. Some might wonder if you're an agitator, or if you're merely fixated on that issue.

:shrug:

[WriteDown]

29. Hatred?

Wow that's a stretch. Who exactly did I say I hated? That's how people are silenced. Their suspicions are termed as "hate" or "dangerous."

[Dogtown]

33. You needn't say it

Your fixation defines you.

[WriteDown]

37. Better get out the shackles..

and bring me to the reeducation camp then. :eyes:.

[Dogtown]

49. My, aren't we weepy!

I don't much care where you go, and you've pretty well proven you're beyond educating.

[WriteDown]

50. I'd wager I'm a tad more educated....

than you. But I've found that school education is a poor indicator of tolerance and understanding concepts. My how close-minded you are.

[Dogtown]

53. Sorry if I touched a nerve.

I certainly don't intend to compete with you or make any grandiose "trumping" claims. My education is modest, but *I* find that quality of education is more important than quantity. After all, there are PhDs running around claiming that humans co-existed with dinosaurs.

As to "close-minded", you've advanced no arguments, and I've espoused no cause. Pretty limp-wristed riposte.

You're really not very prepared for this. Yet here you are. Again.

[WriteDown]

56. You amuse me...

You speak as if you are armed with some great argument and historical perspective when you really have not offered much to the conversation. I just offered a possibility and even admitted to the fact that I am open to other possibilities. You seem a little too thin-skinned and effete to try to discuss world politics.

[Dogtown]

58. You offered a slanted and contrived

interpretation of a fairly clear situation. Since it's a given that the CIA has a history with Chavez and the region, I offered a more likely explanation.



You responded by accusing me of being some kind of "I Spy" skullduggerer.

Since you admit that you can't support your premise, nor can you deny that the US intelligence services have actively interfered in the region, I think my thrust was well-aimed.


Quit trying to lower the discussion to personal insults.

BTW, the use of "effete" in this context is a bit of a conceit; you've over-reached. Odd you can react to a double entendre without being able to construct one...

[WriteDown]

59. Be careful that you don't fall off the Earth...

with that slant. There is no concrete evidence that the CIA has a history with Chavez. Like I've said before, if they are behind these schemes, they must be like the keystone cops or Venezuela's own g-men are just AWESOME.

I never accused you of anything, but apparently you read something into my comments. I haven't seen ANY support from your premise either despite some unsubstantiated reports and accusations.

Your method seems to be to label any suspicion or alternative theory that is not supporting your opinion as "hate." I have to commend you on that. It is a tried and true method of squashing dissent and has been extremely effective. I hear Robert Mugabe is also a fan of this tactic.

Not sure where you got that using the word effete was a conceit (perhaps you meant concession). Did not catch your double entendre. Care to point it out.

[Dogtown]

60. "Conceit" in a literary sense.

It doesn't mean what you think. But, little does.

An inference is an accusation. Your duplicity is clumsy.

Sorry if you missed my little play on words. Apparently I'll have to dumb this down even further.


"There is no concrete evidence that the CIA has a history with Chavez." Now *you're* being amusing.

[WriteDown]

61. Want to quote some poetry for me?

I thought that may be what you mean, but its a little esoteric for this conversation. That was a terrible double entendre if it even qualifies. May want to brush up on Shakespeare to see how its done. I notice you never provide any evidence/links, but you enjoy being verbose. Good luck with that. First I was practicing hate, and now I am dumb? Another interesting if not futile tactic by you.

[Dogtown]

64. I'll leave the internet quote searches

for sophomores.

Since you chose to ignore my witticism (the double entendre) perhaps you'd like to explain why it's so terrible (actually I'm calling your bluff).

"...if it even qualifies"? You do understand that the phrase is a learned borrowing, and that "entendre" actually means "intent"?

If I *intend* a phrase to have 2 meanings, it has those meanings by prima facia. If the intended recipient is unable to decode, that does not change the intent. Hence, there is no "qualification."

Now, perhaps it *was* lame. I make no claims to any great talent. Yet, possibly you just have a problem admitting your weaknesses and are faking it.

And your final foolishness: "First I was practicing hate, and now I am dumb?" Are you really suggesting that hatred is incompatible with being "dumb"? I find that they often are married.

[WriteDown]

72. Sure thing....

There was no real sting to it. Normally, you can get a bit of humor or at least a snicker. I prefer the more risque ones like you may see in an episode of Coupling(BBCA rocks!). Perhaps you mean prima facie. That's a common mistake though. A pox on you for making me remember the horror of learning latin declinations. There is a reason it is a dead language.

I was just noting your fondness of labels, compatibility not withstanding.

[Runcible Spoon]

74. If I were you, I would give my degree(s) back.

talk about a willful ignorance of geopolitics and history.

[bitchkitty]

82. In some places, you just run into them.

I imagine they're everywhere in Venezuela. I'd bet there are plenty of them in cyberspace.

[flamingdem]

94. This already happened to Chavez a few years back

CIA operation that was foiled.

[SharonAnn]

86. Like Pinochet in Chile and other coups in Honduras, Panama,, Iran etc.

We have a long history of overthrowing Democratically elected governments that we claim are "leftist" and replaced them with military or other formas of totalitarian government.

In this case, I believe Chavez. Especially so since we've already tried it once or twice during the * regime.

[LanternWaste]

62. Because they have a...

"Starting to sound a lot like Stalinist Russia...."

Because Venezuela has a Gulag penal system, purges of millions of people, killed 60 million farm-owners, a civil war between the Reds and Whites, an unelected leader, Pogroms, and strict, centralized control over all goods and products?

Or (and I find this a bit more likely) is this one of those cases where we merely pick and choose only those few and specific attributes which coincide in order to make a more dramatic appeal and emotional argument...?

[EFerrari]

92. Do you often wildly accuse people of reminding you of Stalin?

lol

BushCo has been trying to eliminate Chavez for a long time. It's even money that they'll succeed, too.

[IndianaGreen]

107. And you are eating that shit the Bush regime has been dishing for the past 8 years

Pathetic!

[Judi Lynn]

3. And this coincides with Bush's re-activation of the 4th fleet, inactive since the 40's or 50's,

to be doing exercises in the Caribbean off Venezuela's coast.

And suddenly a Vice-Admiral Carlos Alberto Millán Millán gets involved, allegedly. So reminiscent of the high-ranking officers who were maneuvered into joining in the coup against Chavez in 2002, and the U.S. Navy ship off the coast which was used to jam airwaves and communications at the same time. Yeah, nothing underhanded there.

On edit:
Information on _Bush's reactivation of the Fourth Fleet:

Return of the Gunboat - Fourth Fleet Steams South (Stop US Imperialism)

Date: 2008-07-29, 3:41PM EST

The resurrection and imminent dispatch of the United States Fourth Fleet to patrol the coasts of Latin America invokes the bad old days of Monroe Doctrine impositions and gunboat diplomacy for many citizens of those southern latitudes.

This April, the U.S. Navy announced the reactivation of the fleet that historically operated in the south Atlantic during World War II, dueling with Nazi U-boats. Activating the Fourth Fleet "demonstrates U.S. commitment to our global partners," Admiral Gary Roughead explained, adding a threatening fillip: "The Fourth Fleet will send a strong signal to all Navies operating in the region."

More:
http://caribbean.craigslist.org/pol/775062703.html

[Judi Lynn]

5. Got a primitive google computer translation tool version of your first Spanish link,

from "Semana," Satyagrahi, which, although so imperfect does allow a rudimentary grasp of what was discussed:

Mario Silva, Hojilla The driver of the program and candidate of United Socialist Party of Venezuela (Psuv) for governor of Carabobo, introduced on Wednesday night in a recording provided by sources who did not identify, in which several military planned a coup against President Hugo Chávez, which involves the taking of the Palace of Miraflores and the use of F-16. There is no indication of when the recording was made.

In the conversation involving Vice Admiral Carlos Alberto Millán Millán (former inspector general of the National Armed Forces and who was about to assume the General Commander of the Navy), the overall National Guard Wilfredo Barroso Herrera, former Chief of Staff National Guard and general aviation brigade Eduardo Baez Torrealba, who was Commander of the Aviation Logistics and was involved in the coup of April 2002. Several of them remain as military assets but without troops and without a defined position.

President Chavez ordered investigation

After recording made, at approximately 11:20 at night, President Hugo Chávez was communicated via telephone with La Hojilla. He indicated that road came when Defence Minister, General Gustavo Rangel Briceno, called him by telephone to tell what is shown on the agenda of Silva. "Well, according to proceed immediately send laws, to open an investigation", the President ordered.

Chavez indicated that have neutralized a lot of conspiracies in recent years thanks to improvements in the bodies of Venezuelan intelligence. "We have infiltrated movements of the most radical fascists" who "are trying to burn down the country." "We know long they are looking coehetes land and air sophisticated equipment to fly the presidential aircraft"; have also indicated that planned to bomb Miraflores.

He reiterated that "if they launch a coup, the backlash would be devastating." Hours before, during an opening ceremony of popular consultation, President Chavez had already indicated that it was planning an attack against him, using F-16 camuflageados for violating his life.

The conversation

In an excerpt of the speech, Barroso Herrera said: "Here the goal is one only: let's take the Palacio de Miraflores, we will take the television plants, we will take these objectives. The objective must be one only, is read every effort towards where Mr. If you're in Miraflores, and above all the effort towards. " He assured that you have someone who knows every detail of Miraflores, "which is the sergeant Brito Lombardero, and it is with us." He assured that he works "in the Engineering Service."

They indicate that it is also necessary to take the "General Command" with "troops inside", including "those in the same barracks, in the Callejon Machado, 200 metres from the General Command." They involve a unit that is at the Hippodrome La Rinconada, which would take responsibility for the Palace of Miraflores. Another unit, "which is in Detachment 56, The Butterfly", would control Bowl.

They assert that the number 5 Regional Command of the National Guard "two commanders, two lieutenant colonels are responsible for the situation internally." They also claim to have supporters in a unit or battalion name Bolivar, located in Catia La Mar, which would come to Caracas to participate in the coup.

Plan to use F-16 Liberator of the Base

In another conversation, have expressed items checked in the Libertador Air Base, in Maracay, Aragua state, where are located the F-16 and others from the Venezuelan Air Force.

Torrealba Baez says: "We are divided into four zones, which will be in charge of east, west and two plants. That I have inside commanders, colonels out there ... and most importantly, Gonzalez, is the pilots. We already have a pilot with a thousand flying hours in F-16, is another instructor who is going to take off aircraft, "Baez mentioned in one of the recordings.

Then he said: "The commander who is an instructor, has some muchachitos down, some captains and higher that he gave them instruction, who are willing to follow him." He assured that "man of safety within the Base Liberator is with us. He told me: 'I am the pilots and the amount on the plane,' and he is the commander, he is not going to revise or anything. He is the commander of the police. "

Alike, Silva announced that this will be the last programme of La Hojilla not to violate the electoral law adopted on Wednesday.

Your link:
http://www.semana.com.ve/article.php?id=1670

Thank you.

[Satyagrahi]

12. Thanks. I am hoping to find some independent analysis

to see if the plot makes sense. I am a little bit surprised that these generals should still have so much influence within the Armed Forces of Venezuela that they are able to mount a coup, but their plans are certainly very detailed (if the recordings are authentic, of course).

[robcon]

7. Finding non-existent "plots" is the mark of a demagogue.

It's a typical result of an egotist that sees himself as a Messiah, and a paranoid who sees enemies, non just opponents, all around him.

Joe Stalin, anybody?

[tritsofme]

10. troll freeper fascist republican!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How dare you speak about dear Uncle Hugo in such a manner?!?!?!?!?!?!

[fascisthunter]

65. awwwwwwwww

[Satyagrahi]

13. The coup attempt of 2002 was also just a figment of his imagination and

that lovely riverside property in Brooklyn is still there for you to buy.

[WriteDown]

17. No, very real...

But I haven't seen where U.S. involvement has been even close to proven. It would have been in the U.S.'s interest, but that does not prove involvement.

[Dogtown]

23. "It would have been in the U.S.'s interest"?

Only in the minds of right-wing idealogues.

[WriteDown]

25. No, from a strictly....

political and resource based point of you. Pretty simple really.

[High Plains]

84. Ah, a Kissingeresque realpolitiker. Of course.

[AlphaCentauri]

35. Th intention has been there, Antonini or Posada Carriles have not been extradite to south America

....
But I think in order to understand where we are with
this issue, we also have to have, I think, an understanding
of how history repeats itself, how some things that we are
hearing now we have heard before. For close to 50 years
now, we have had a very strong lobbying effort in this
country against a Cuban Government. The so-called anti-
Castro lobby has been very strong, and that lobby has been
very influential in getting many Members of Congress and
Presidents, present and past, to feel that the only path
towards changes in Cuba is to continuously attack and
confront the Cuban Government. To the dismay of many
people, I am sure, and with all due respect to many people,
it is no secret that for the most part that lobby, this
effort, has come out of anti-Castro groups who, for the
most part, live in the State of Florida.
Well, something very interesting has happened in the
last few years. As Latin America has elected leftistleaning
leaders, people who propose to put forth a modernday
socialism, as they call it, 21st-century socialism, but
people who have been elected and reelected as they have
emerged, they have decided that it would not be improper
for them as leaders of those countries to have a
relationship with the Cuban Government.
Well, that upsets the same people who have been upset
with the Cuban Government. The fact that some new
governments in Latin America would now be friendly to the
Government in Cuba would upset these folks.
Our policy towards Cuba has been heavily influenced by
this anti-Castro movement. I can't tell you how many times
in the 17 years that I have been in Congress and have tried
to change that policy. I have been told by Members of
Congress on both sides, Democrats and Republicans, liberals
and conservatives, I have been told by them, I agree with
you, you are right with this policy having to change.


http://serrano.house.gov/media/pdfs/Serrano%20Latin%20America%20Speech%20110507.pdf

[WriteDown]

15. We are on the same wavelength this morning...

Check upthread for my posts.

[Larkspur]

18. Than Bush is the King of Demagogues

What other reason could he want to wiretap every American and monitor every Americans movements inside and outside the USA.

The Republican Party is the American Fascist Party in practice and ideology.

[nichomachus]

19. Exactly, remember how Bush bragged that his policies had stopped hundreds ot terrorist attacks?

[ronnie624]

20. Using ad hominem attacks instead of facts and logic

is the mark of a right-wing simpleton who is incapable of producing a well reasoned argument. Such individuals must avoid the substance of a given topic, and resort instead to character assassination.

[L. Coyote]

28. THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED - 75 min -

THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED - 75 min - Apr 23, 2006
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

I better watch this again for signs of the "non-existent" plot.

Bush failed to overthrow a democracy. For once, good thing he is a failure!!

[redqueen]

36. Nut uh! You can't prove the US was behind it! Stop saying that!

/dumbass

[L. Coyote]

39. Like we can't prove the US was supporting the Contras illegally?

Either you forgot the :sarcasm: or you are skipping history classes.

[redqueen]

41. "/dumbass"

Sorry... I thought that made it clear I was impersonating our esteemed guests.

:hi:

[L. Coyote]

43. George Bush Sr. May Face Charges: Conspiring to Kidnap and Murder Political Activists

Perhaps others can prove a few things I cannot,
especially after Resident Bush can no longer block investigations
and all the documents they secreted become public:

George Bush Sr. May Face Charges: Conspiring to Kidnap and Murder Political Activists
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2459135

Italy: Judge issues 140 arrest warrants in "Plan Condor" case. Bush NOT YET indicted.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2528536

TRUTH can not be defeated!! Murder has no statute of limitations!!

[redqueen]

44. Hah... tell it to Kissinger. (nt)

[L. Coyote]

47. Bush and Kissinger know: Murder has no statute of limitations!!

That's why Junior has been so busy making sure Daddy's papers will never see the light of day, ever!!

[Judi Lynn]

66. So many people were deeply concerned when this clown made previous Presidential records inaccessible

to public scrutiny. It didn't seem possible this could happen, yet it was one of his major undemocratic goals he accomplished his first year:

November 1, 2001: Bush Limits Access to Former Presidential Papers George W. Bush signs Executive Order 13233 which limits public access to papers of all presidents since 1980. A 1978 law provided for the release of presidential papers 12 years after the president leaves office, so Ronald Reagan’s papers would have been released next year. Reagan issued an order in 1989 that called for disclosure of most of his official papers 12 years after he left office but under the new executive order the papers can be kept secret even if the president in question wants them released. President Bush’s father was vice president during the Reagan administration. {Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 11/8/2001} The Guardian notes that now Bush’s “personal papers detailing the decision-making process in the current war on terrorism could remain secret in perpetuity.” In March 2001, Bush signed a temporary order delaying the release of these papers for 90 days, and then signed for another 90 day delay before signing this order making the change permanent (see January 20, 2001). {New York Times, 1/3/2003}
'Executive Fiat' - Bush’s executive order radically reforms the PRA and unilaterally imposes limitations never contemplated by Congress. Bush is, according to former Nixon White House counsel John Dean, “in essence… repealing an act of Congress and imposing a new law by executive fiat.” If not overturned by Congress or lawsuits, the executive order mandates the following, according to Dean:

• Former presidents can keep their papers sealed indefinitely.
  
• Vice presidents have the power to invoke executive privilege, an authority limited to the president since 1969.
  
• The burden shifts from a presumption to release presidential documents unless good cause exists to keep them sealed, to the opposite, where an applicant must show good cause why a set of documents should be unsealed.
  
• Any request to release a former president’s papers must be approved by both the former president and the current incumbent. Either one’s objection keeps the papers sealed.
  
• “Representatives of former presidents” may invoke executive privilege after a former president’s death. Dean will write, “Although there is no constitutional basis whatsoever for this, under Bush’s order such a right can be passed from generation to generation, to friends, anyone.”

Tom Connors of the Society of American Archivists will say, “What seems to be coming out of the {Bush-Cheney} administration is the idea that public information is a dangerous thing.” Historian Hugh Davis Graham, who will, before his death, take part in a lawsuit to overturn the order, will observe, “George W. Bush has a fetish for secrecy. And unless this executive order is overturned, it will be a victory for secrecy in government—a victory so total that it would make {former president Richard} Nixon jealous in his grave.” Dean will add, “Bush and Cheney assumed office planning to take total and absolute control of executive branch information. The truth will be what they say it is. They will decide what the public should know and when, if ever.” {Dean, 2004, pp. 89-92}

[Mudoria]

38. Damn I'm sorry I wasted over an hour of my time

on earth watching that. This is the proof so many tin foilers point to? This was a movie with a pre-determined agenda that made sure any info was carefully cherrypicked to support the viewpoint the author(s) wanted to project. Reminded me of something Ann Coulter would produce to attempt to prove one of her wacky fictious ideas.

[L. Coyote]

40. An ad hominem is your idea of a film review? Laughable ...FIVE-STAR FILM

Watching a film documenting the overthrow of Venezuelan democracy,
and reacting like indicates a pre-determined agenda!
Is your tin-foil is protecting you from reality?

You also contradict the true history of the film crew.

And, this is reality, not a "wacky fictious idea."

You witnessed the overthrow of a democracy, and this is your reaction, a Bush defensive, reactionary view!!

[redqueen]

42. Hard to believe, isn't it?

A documentary crew just HAPPENS to be there when they tried this shit... is FORTUNATE enough to be able to get so much of it on film (unlike in Chile 35 years ago)... and dumbasses here scoff as if it's all a set up.

Amazing.

[EFerrari]

91. The crew was from Ireland and they were there to do an interview

with Chavez. It's a good thing the generals decided not to bomb the building or we'd not have the footage. They got to film that, too -- when the cabinet is informed they're about to be blown to bits.

Good movie.

[Judi Lynn]

101. It would appear there are some people who simply can't grasp what they are seeing.

I'm sure this is carried out throughout all the aspects of their lives, as in not understanding what they are reading, as well.

Short attention span, or insufficient mental strength?

If nothing else, these clowns should ask themselves why it is the Venezuelan opposition fought the showing of the documentary so hard, and even made so many threats to Amnesty International that A-I withdrew the showing of the film from its scheduled appearance at their Vancouver Film Festival in 2003, due to threats of violence from the opposition. Cowardly. You bet. You wouldn't expect that from them.

[L. Coyote]

45. 7:28 to 8:09 is not an hour, and this AWARD-WINNING film is 75 minutes.

Credibility problem that. And that assumes you started watching instantly.
OR: Do tell us where to get one of those fast movie players!!

[fascisthunter]

105. Your Ignorance will DO That

I'd imagine you waste tons of time on DU...

[Judi Lynn]

106. It might be good to suggest he waits until the pop-up book of the film is published,

but it's possible it would only frighten him.

[LanternWaste]

57. It's also the mark of conspiracy theorists

It's also the mark of conspiracy theorists who claim that the only "plots" that happen are the ones they themselves believe....

[flamingdem]

96. But the last one was REAL and the NYT did an expose on it!

[clixtox]

103. Stalin's dead... Sounds more like George Shrub, POTUS

Where do these corporate stooges come from and why do they bother posting here

Their time must be worthless!

[AngryAmish]

51. Next time it will be the doctors plotting a coup

[IndianaGreen]

108. Too bad Chavez is not a Stalin

Stalin would have eliminated the coup plotters a long time ago. Stalin would shutdown the opposition TV and newspapers. Stalin would have dealt with the disgusting and corrupt Catholic Church.

[Satyagrahi]

54. "Official" transcript

Well, rather my transcript of the official transcript (typos are mine):

Barroso Herrera Wilfredo -

Aquí el objetivo es uno solo
vamos a tomar el Palacio de Miraflores

vamos a tomar las plantas televisoras

vamos a tomar los objetivos tal

okey, el objetivo tiene que ser uno sólo

es decir todo el esfuerzo a
donde está el señor

si está en Miraflores hacia
allá todo el esfuerzo.

Yo tengo a alguien que conoce todo eso
todos los detalles de Miraflores

que es el Sargento Brito Lombardero

y está con nosotros pues

o sea , Maestro Brito Lombardero, él está
ahorita en el Servicio de Ingeniería.



Barroso Herrera Wilfredo -

La Guardia es, tomar la
Comandancia General

tomar la Comandancia con... con las tropas
del Cuartel General que están ahí.

? -

¿Hay gente de adentro?

Barroso Herrera Wilfredo -

el resto de los oficiales, la..., los..., la..., los
Capitanes y Mayores que están en el móvil,

en Seguridad Urbana que están en el mismo...,
en el mismo Cuartel ahí en el Callejón Machado

a 200 metros, 300 metros de la
Comandancia General

la gente del Calvario,

la gente de la Unidad que está en el
Hipódromo La Rinconada

que controla la del Calvario,

ok, eso... ese... esa unidad,

ese esfuerzo de unidad es hacia el
Palacio de Miraflores,

porque es la unidad de combate, es
la unidad de mayor fuerza.

? -

pregunto ¿La gente del Hipódromo puede
trancar los accesos de bajar de Los Teques?

Barroso Herrera Wilfredo -

No, ya va, no no, esa es otra unidad,

eso es la gente que está en el Destacamento
56 que está en La Mariposa,

que controla Tazón y tiene jurisdicción
en el servicio,

en Los Teques,
que tiene una unidad ahi.

? -

Y ¿Cómo hace con la gente que está ahi
frente a la entrada de, donde es la UNEFA?

Barroso Herrera Wilfredo -

¿Regional 5?
No, ese es el Comando Regional 5,

ahi hay 2 Comandantes,
2 Tenientes Coroneles,

que van a encargarse de la situación
ahí internamente.

? -

Hablemos claro de la cosa

alguien puede garantizar el control
de la Armada

de la Comandancia perdón,
sí... del edificio sede.

Vicealmirante (ARVB) Millán Millán Carlos Alberto -

el Comandante del Cuartel

? -

Tipo como salió la gente, alto aquí no entra
nadie, tipo 11, o tipo cuarto, o tipo 27

sí, tomar el cuartel

Vicealmirante (ARVB) Millán Millán Carlos Alberto -

No fíjate, en caso de una emergencia, que tu
sepas que están asaltando la Comandancia,

entonces tienes que esperar
que llegue el Bolivar

con las Unidades a darle apoyo y
el Bolivar en este caso...

? -

Está de nuestro lado...??

Vicealmirante (ARVB) Millán Millán Carlos Alberto -

Eso ero lo que iba a terminar.

Sí, allá en Catia La Mar.

? -

Ellos, los amigos del Bolivar, ¿ellos se
quedarían allá abajo o subirían a apoyarnos?

Vicealmirante (ARVB) Millán Millán Carlos Alberto -

No, no, tienes que subir.

? -

¿Allá no hay nada que defender verdad?

(Vicealmirante (ARVB) Millán Millán Carlos Alberto) -

No, allá no tienen nada que buscar.



Baez Torrealba Eduardo -

Sí, nosotros estamos divididos
en cuarto zonas,

los que se van a encargar de la parte de
oriente, de occidente y dos de centrales.

Entonces este... ahi yo tengo eh...
Comandantes adentro,

Coroneles afuera, este... y eh... con sus,
bueno ahí hay,

ahí lo mas importante, eh, González,
es los pilotos

ya tenemos, hay un piloto que tiene
mil horas de vuelo en F16,

el otro es instructor, que son los
que van a despegar los aviones,

el, eh... ese Comandante
que es instructor

tiene a otros muchachitos abajo,
unos Capitanes

y unos Mayores que él le dio instrucción.

que están dispuestos también
a este... a seguirlo a él, ¿me entiendes?

Bueno, sí es que el hombre de seguridad

dentro de la Base Libertador
está con nosotros

y me dijo "yo le pongo los pilotos y
se los monto en un avión"

y él es el Comandante, a el no lo
van a revisar ni nada,

es el Comandante de ahi de..
de la Policia Aérea.



Baez Torrealba Eduardo -

Bueno uno de los muchachos en
la reunión de allá, de Maracay,

Tulio propone también que hagamos el
estudio para la operación

una posible operación
llegando él también de viaje

Una de las acciones que...
pudiera ser, es volarlo,

eh... capturarlo con aviones en el aire,

este... el, con, con, con, la tropa llegando
ahí de, de la infantería

eh, o sea... habría que armarlo bien,
¿entiendes?

Este... ese se está armando
paralelo al de Miraflores,

más, el que se ve más apropiado es el de
Miraflores hasta los momentos.


Source:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug4qVB_JgjI

[Satyagrahi]

77. Translation:

Barroso Herrera, Wilfredo:

Aquí el objetivo es uno solo, vamos a tomar el Palacio de Miraflores, vamos a tomar las plantas televisoras, ..., es decir todo el esfuerzo a donde está el señor, si está en Miraflores hacia allá todo el esfuerzo.

Herrera is heard saying, "Here there is only one objective: we're going to take the Miraflores Palace, we're going to take the TV installations...that is all effort towards where the man is. If he's in Miraflores, the effort goes towards there."

Barroso Herrera, Wilfredo:

Yo tengo a alguien que conoce todo eso, todos los detalles de Miraflores, que es el Sargento Brito Lombardero y está con nosotros pues.

Then he assures that he has someone who knows all the details of Miraflores, "that is the sergeant Brito Lombardero, and he's with us."

Barroso Herrera, Wilfredo:

La Guardia es, tomar la Comandancia General, tomar la Comandancia con... con las tropas del Cuartel General que están ahí.

Q: ¿Hay gente de adentro?

Barroso Herrera, Wilfredo:

El resto de los oficiales,..., los Capitanes y Mayores que están en el móvil, en Seguridad Urbana que están ... en el mismo Cuartel ahí en el Callejón Machado a 200 metros, 300 metros de la Comandancia General.

The speakers also say it is necessary to take the "command headquarters" with "the troops inside," including "those who are in the same barracks, in the Callejon Machado, 200 meters from the command headquarters."

Vicealmirante (ARVB) Millán Millán, Carlos Alberto:

No fíjate, en caso de una emergencia, que tu sepas que están asaltando la Comandancia, entonces tienes que esperar que llegue el Bolivar con las Unidades a darle apoyo y el Bolivar en este caso...

Q: Está de nuestro lado...??

Vicealmirante (ARVB) Millán Millán, Carlos Alberto:

Eso ero lo que iba a terminar. Sí, allá en Catia La Mar.

They discuss which units will be responsible and will control which areas and buildings. They confirm they have sympathizers in a unit called "Bolivar," located in Catia La Mar, near the Capital Caracas, which would come to Caracas to participate in the coup.

Baez Torrealba, Eduardo:

Entonces este... ahi yo tengo eh... Comandantes adentro (at the Base Libertador), Coroneles afuera, este... y eh... con sus, bueno ahí hay, ...

In another conversation it is indicated that they have control points in the Air Base Libertador, in Maracay, Aragua state, where the F16 and other planes of the Venezuelan Air Force are.

Baez Torrealba, Eduardo:

Sí, nosotros estamos divididos en cuarto zonas, los que se van a encargar de la parte de oriente, de occidente y dos de centrales, ..., ahí lo mas importante, eh, González,
es los pilotos, ya tenemos, hay un piloto que tiene mil horas de vuelo en F16, el otro es instructor, que son los que van a despegar los aviones ...

Baez Torrealba says, "We are divided into four zones, those that are going to be in charge of the east, the west, and two in the centre... there the most important thing, Gonzalez, is the pilots. We already have a pilot ...in F16, the other is an instructor who is going to take off the planes."

Baez Torrealba, Eduardo:

El, eh... ese Comandante que es instructor tiene a otros muchachitos abajo, unos Capitanes y unos Mayores que él le dio instrucción, que están dispuestos también ... a seguirlo a él... Bueno, sí es que el hombre de seguridad dentro de la Base Libertador está con nosotros ... y él es el Comandante, a el no lo van a revisar ni nada, es el Comandante de ahi ... de la Policia Aérea.

He continues, "This commander, who is an instructor, he has some guys below, some captains and some majors...who are prepared to follow him...the security man inside Libertador Base is with us...he is the commander, they're not going to check anything with him. He is the commander of the police."

Baez Torrealba, Eduardo:

Tulio propone también que hagamos el estudio para la operación una posible operación, llegando él también de viaje. Una de las acciones que... pudiera ser, es volarlo, eh... capturarlo con aviones en el aire ...

Torrealba talks of the possibility of either bombing the president's plane, or capturing it with other planes in the air.

Source:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3786

[Judi Lynn]

79. Wow! Thank you for running this down. This is one to bookmark. n/t

[EFerrari]

87. Thanks! n/t

[Peace Patriot]

63. Bolivia's president just threw U.S. ambassador Philip Goldberg out of Bolivia,

for his funding, supporting, meeting with and training of the white separatists who are trying to rip the country to pieces (riots, storming of public buildings and assemblies, blowing up pipelines), to split off the gas/oil rich eastern provinces into a fascist controlled mini-state where the multinationals can plunder Bolivia's gas/oil resources.

Rafael Correa, president of Ecuador says there is a three-country Bushite strategy to foment fascist secessionist movements. Bolivia. Ecuador. Venezuela. The latter two are members of OPEC, rich in oil reserves. All three have elected leftist governments (as does most of South America). In Venezuela, the most vulnerable province is the oil rich state of Zulia, on the Caribbean, adjacent to Colombia (Bush Cartel client state). This is what makes the Bush junta reconstitution of the U.S. 4th Fleet in the Caribbean--and recent illegal U.S. AF flyovers of Venezuelan territory--so worrisome. Also, earlier this year, the U.S./Colombia conducted an illegal bombing/raid into Ecuador, which caused a major fracas in South America, and almost started a war between Colombia and Ecuador. (Lula da Silva, president of Brazil, called Chavez "the great peacemaker" for his role in de-fusing that Bushite instigated conflict.)

Brazil and Argentina (Chavez allies) just announced that they are going off the U.S. dollar. They and most South American countries have formed UNSASUR, a South American "Common Market," and Brazil proposed a common defense, neither thing--common market or common defense--includes the U.S.

Bolivia's leftist president Evo Morales recently greeted the newly elected leftist president of Paraguay with the words, "Welcome to the Axis of Evil."

Things are not going well for the Bushwhacks in South America. I don't know if this present plot is Bush-CIA instigated, or real (or timely--no date given). The Venezuelan government is investigating it, as they should. If such a recording involving U.S. military personnel surfaced here, you can be sure there would be an investigation. Any country would do so. But, given the history of Bushwhack efforts to destroy both Venezuela's and Bolivia's elected governments, recently, and the long history of violent U.S. interference in South and Central America, and our current fascist government's utter contempt for human life and greed for oil, and their fascist contempt for democracy, it would certainly be no surprise if they were involved. The Bush junta is the most secretive government in the history of the U.S. It might be hard to find out for sure. Enlightenment would most likely come from the other end--Venezuela--than here. And, as with Chile, 9/11/73, and the recent revelations about Nixon and Kissinger in that fascist coup, it can take forty years for all the details to start coming out.

Should we wait so long, and sit back with smartass "skepticism" about Bush junta malevolent intentions in South America? I don't think so. They want the oil. They are utterly ruthless in how they go about getting it. They are war criminals. They are dirtbags. What's to know? If there is another plot to overthrow Chavez, they are more than likely involved. And my suspicion would be that it's connected to the civil war strategy that we see unfolding in Bolivia. There is evidence of such a fascist cabal in Zulia, also in Ecuador, and of connection between the three. The Bushwhacks are likely providing the connective tissue, as happened with Plan Condor (mass torture/assassinations of leftists throughout South America in the earlier era, coordinated by the CIA).

Skepticism is wise and good, in some respects, in some circumstances. But you can go too far with it, so that you blind yourself to obvious patterns, and sit stranded in swirls of historical events, knowing nothing. It's even been called "know-nothingism"--turning a blind eye to evil. And that very attitude can be used for evil. I can imagine one German, back in Hitler's time, saying to another German, "I saw the trains," and a know-nothing German replying, "But you can't prove where they're going." Sometimes demanding "proof"--like demanding "papers"--is an act of oppression. It can confuse or disable those who might take action against evil. It can make people stupid and put them to sleep. There has been an obvious pattern, and repeated incidents, of Bushite evil-doing in South America. Time and investigation will hopefully tell if this incident is part of that pattern. The pattern itself is undeniable and very well-documented, as far as can be done with this obsessively secretive junta in the White House.

[Judi Lynn]

67. Chávez reports on detention of some people involved in assassination plot

CARACAS, Thursday September 11, 2008
Chávez reports on detention of some people involved in assassination plot

Several militaries who were scheming against Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, as denounced by the very head of state on Wednesday evening, have been detained, but neither the number nor the names were disclosed.

"There are several detainees and the Defense Minister (Gustavo Rangel) has ordered to open an investigation through the military Attorney General Office," said Chávez during a rally with supporters held in Caracas, Efe reported.

Chávez ordered to air his remarks in an obligatory simultaneous broadcast, including a tape-recording where presumably three high-ranking retired army officers talk about the plot.

The decision for the broadcast, according to Chávez, came because the private media failed to release in their Thursday's editions the news about the uncovered plot.

The head of state said again that the plans to kill or topple him were authored by the US government, with the help of wealthy Venezuelans, nicknamed by him "US cronies."

http://english.eluniversal.com/2008/09/11/en_pol_art_chavez-reports-on-de_11A1981175.shtml
(Venezuelan opposition newspaper)

[Taverner]

69. Hard to say if this is a false flag or real

All of our trying to depose him over the years has gotten him downright paranoid.

[Judi Lynn]

70. How would you know? Our CIA has admitted trying to kill Castro hundreds of times. n/t

[Taverner]

71. Unfortunately, that's just it

We need to stop this abusive relationship with Central and South America.

[Judi Lynn]

73. You've got that right. It's far, FAR more extensive, more destructive than most Americans realize,

since our own corporate media has been such a willing partner in keeping it all swept under the rug.

Everything we learn we almost have to deliberately find out ourselves through research, as it has been policy to allow power-mad right-wing pResidents to devastate Latin American countries without any U.S. citizen oversight. They can't help themselves. The urge to try to bend the rest of the hemisphere to their will is too big for them to resist.

Only meeting the resistance of the people themselves, rather than the greedy sell-out ruling classes betrayal of their people will turn back murderous, greedy aggression. Once the people are in charge, through democracy, there won't be any oligarchs to do bidness with.

[flamingdem]

95. Over 600 times! In Havana there is a museum dedicated to it

with the exploding cigar.

[cobalt1999]

75. Easy to see through this.

Chavez is looking to remain as president past his legally allowed term.

I might be wrong, but we'll see soon enough.

[Matilda]

76. Called out the army, has he?

Instigated military rule?

Declared himself dictator?

He's there until 2013 - that's when we'll see.

[EFerrari]

88. So, he what? Got a group of opposition retired military

and forced them to have this conversation?

[Judi Lynn]

80. Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez suspects US plot as navy officer is detained

Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez suspects US plot as navy officer is detained
Saturday, 13 September 2008


Venezuelan authorities have detained a high-ranking navy officer on suspicion of involvement in a purported plot to overthrow President Hugo Chavez.

Mr Chavez insisted the United States was behind the conspiracy and predicted the "plans of the empire, the CIA ... trying to topple the government are going to continue".

Authorities detained Venezuelan Vice Admiral Carlos Millan and turned him over to military prosecutors, Justice Minister Tarek El Aissami told state television.

He said Mr Millan is the fifth detained in a group of current and former officers.

The government has released what it says are recordings of the suspects discussing plans for deposing Mr Chavez.

More:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/venezuelan-president-hugo-chavez-suspects-us-plot-as-navy-officer-is-detained-13972824.html

[flamingdem]

98. Hugo is benefitting from Fidel's knowledge of el enemigo, Fidel survived over

600 assassination attempts.

[Satyagrahi]

81. Update: Proof that the recordings are of recent date

There was some speculation that the tapes may be old, perhaps from the time before the coup of 2002, but Jesús Gregorio González, the general in charge of the investigation, explains that two persons mentioned in the recordings have been in their posts only for a few months:

General González
“vamos por muy buen camino”:Alto Mando Militar llevará hasta el final investigaciones sobre presunta conspiración

Caracas, septiembre 12 (REDACTA)
-snip-

“La evidencia ha sido sometida a revisiones muy superficiales que dicen que no es tan viejo como quieren hacer notar, de 2005, 2004 o de 2002 cuando el otro golpe. Basta confirmar el caso del oficial comandante que está en el centro de la policía aérea, de la base Libertador, tiene meses en ese cargo, igual que Brito Lombardero, tiene meses reincorporado”, explicó González.

http://www.el-carabobeno.com/p_pag_not.aspx?art=a130908e01&id=t130908-e01

Brito (Joaquín) Lombardero was mentioned by General Wilfredo Barroso Herrera and Ruperto Chinquinquirá Sánchez, the commander of the Policia Aérea de la Base Aérea El Libertador (BAEL), was mentioned by General Eduardo Báez Torrealba.

The coup plot was probably uncovered by Venezuelan military intelligence (División de Inteligencia Militar (DIM)).

It is very telling that the Bush administration decided to retaliate against military intelligence officers:

U.S. slams Venezuelan Hugo Chávez' top intelligence men

By PHIL GUNSON
Special to The Miami Herald

CARACAS --
The U.S. government Friday accused two senior Venezuelan intelligence officials and President Hugo Chávez's former interior minister of helping Colombian FARC guerrillas with weapons and drug trafficking, sharpening a confrontation that also saw Washington expel Venezuela's ambassador.

Named in the U.S. accusation were Gen. Hugo Carvajal, head of military intelligence; Gen. Henry Rangel Silva, head of the secret police (Disip); and Ramón Rodríguez Chacín, a longtime Chávez security aide who resigned as interior minister on Monday.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/story/684655.html

Draw your own conclusions.

[Judi Lynn]

89. Thanks for the info. on the time frame. Very interesting, absolutely. If you want to hear the actual

voices, DU'er SFexpat2000 posted the link in DU's Latin America forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x7554

[flamingdem]

99. Thanks. Chavez got them.. he's not the greatest but he's not going to let Boosh get him

no way

[ohio2007]

85. Phone taps are covered under the "Rule By Decree" orders

and the state owned phone company records are kept secret

[ronnie624]

93. Since you made the claim,

you must have some dependable info to back it up. How about a link?

[flamingdem]

97. WOW!!!!!!!!!!!! que caliente .... El Hugo es un tema muy controvertido en DU

At least he knows that Bush smells like sulphur.

[ronnie624]

109. He is a lightening rod for right-wing posters on DU,

who wish to attack progressive political thought, but cannot do so directly out of fear of being banned. I think it's why you rarely see them posting on other topics, especially those that are critical of U.S. abuses. Right-wingers have a paralyzing aversion to introspection.