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mumon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 07:28 PM
Original message
District Wants to Give Bible Study Fliers to Students
northwestern Ohio school district asked a federal appeals court today to allow distribution of community notices to elementary school children. That includes fliers which opponents say are "overtly religious" advertisements of Christian events that shouldn't be promoted in public schools.

A lawyer for the Crestview Local School District said it distributes notices to students about various non-profit organizations' activities, including 4-H Club, YMCA and Little League baseball, not just church-sponsored events. The schools' lawyer asked the Sixth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to reverse a judge's 2002 ruling that forbids the district to give students any notices that advertise religious activities.


Well, if this goes through, I would expect to be able to give out literature to kids saying why they should turn away from fanatical fundamentalism...
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. The thing that kills me about these fundies, is that
they must think they will be the only religion allowed to issue these flyers. If they are permitted to, how will you then say No to the Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, Mormons, Pagans, and Satanists? Don't they realize that they will NOT be able to prohibit these groups from distributing their own flyers? You can have either total inclusion, or total exclusion. You cannot have some but not others. How do they fail to understand this????
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Bingo!
I was going to make the exact same point when I saw this tread title. Thanks for doing it for me! :yourock:

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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Because people are not challenging this faith-based crap enough.
The other religions and atheists need to start making a stink about getting the funds and rights Fundies think should be theirs alone and press the point hard. It's not about the money or the foolish special privileges, it's about losing a very precious, basic tenent of American democracy.
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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. every time we make a stink we're called "anti-God"
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antipov1 Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. So....No more secularism I guess.
So, it looks like that whole separation of Church and State thing isn't paid attention to anymore, or ever. Schools should be one of the places where young people should be free to learn without being preached to or pressured into anything. I can still remember in Grade one singing "God Save The Queen" There is not a chance in God's green earth that I would sing that today. And in Grade 4 our teacher read the stories of the bible to us, and that was in a public school, and I am only first year of university, so that isn't that long ago. It would be nice to say that things have changed in recent years, but they haven't and if the appeals court allows distribution, it will be just one more slap in the face for secularism.
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eagler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. So should we shove secularism down peoples
throats?
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. In schools, yes.
In church, no.
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Hegemony Cricket Donating Member (438 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Ding! Cookie for you!!!
:yourock:
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. BINGO!
You get the booby prize! :)
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ithacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. separation of church and state is a myth
hadn't you heard?

That's the official GOP line by the way...

for more scary stuff:

http://www.TheocracyWatch.org/
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. Is there a link to this flyer
or a copy somewhere we can see? If it is just an announcement of a bible study group or a church activity, that is not such a big deal. But if it's a copy of a sermon or something praising Jesus, that is a violation of the church/state regs regarding public schools. No brainer - can't do that.
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm a Crewsite. I like Harry Crews' religion.
Crews says "Pray in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one fills up first." The Gospel Singer
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
11. I thought this email said it well.
JUAN NINGUNO, and old preacher-friend of mine from days past, sent me a letter not long ago. His letters are always fantastic (in the sense of the primary meaning of that word). I never know when I'll hear from Juan. He moves around a lot - mostly in almost forgotten places where I myself have journeyed. This letter was sent from Nevada. Allow me to share it with you:

Dear John,
As you know, we've been working real hard in our town to get prayer back in the schools. Finally, the school board approved a plan of teacher-led prayer with the children participating at their own option. Children not wishing to participate were to be allowed to stand out in the hallway during the prayer time. We hoped someone would sue us so we could go all the way to the Supreme Court and get that old devil-inspired ruling reversed.

Naturally, we were all excited by the school board's action. As you know, our own little Billy (not so little, any more, though) is now in the second grade. Of course, Margaret and I explained to him no matter what the other kids did, he was going to stay in the classroom and participate.

After the first day of school, I asked him, "How did the prayer time go?"
"Fine."
"Did many kids go out into the hallway?"
"Two."
"Excellent. How did you like your teacher's prayer?"
"It was different, Dad. Real different from the way you pray."
"Oh? Like how?"
"She said, ‘Hail, Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners...'"
The next day I talked with the principal. I politely explained I wasn't prejudice against Catholics but I would appreciate Billy being transferred to a non-Catholic teacher. The principal said it would be done right away.

At supper that evening I asked Billy to say the blessings. He slipped out of his chair, sat cross-legged on the floor, closed his eyes, raised his hands palms up and began to hum.
You'd better believe I was at the principal's office at eight o'clock the next morning. "Look," I said. "I don't really know much about these Transcendental Meditationists, but I would feel a lot more comfortable if you could move Billy to a room where the teacher practices and older, more established religion.'"

That afternoon I met Billy as soon as he walked in the door after school.
"I don't think your going to like Mrs. Nakasone's prayer, either, Dad."
"Out with it."
"She kept calling God ‘O Great Budda...'"
The following morning I was waiting for the principal in the school parking lot. "Look, I don't want my son praying to the Eternal Spirit of whatever or to Buddha. I want him to have a teacher that prays in Jesus' name!"
"What about Bertha Smith?"
"Excellent."

I could hardly wait to hear about Mrs. Smith's prayer. I was standing on the front steps of the school when the final bell rang.
"Well?" I asked Billy as we walked towards the car.
"Okay."
"Okay what?"
"Mrs. Smith asked God to bless us and ended her prayer in Jesus name, amen - just like you."
I breathed a sigh of relief. "Now we're getting some place."
"She even taught us a verse of scripture about prayer," said Billy.
I beamed. "Wonderful. What was the verse?"
"Let's see..." he mused for a moment. " ‘And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.'"
We had reached the car. "Fantastic," I said, reaching for the door handle. Then I paused. I couldn't place the scripture. "Billy, did Mrs. Smith say what book that verse was from?"
"Third Nephi, chapter 19, verse 18."
"Third what?"
"Nephi," he said, "It's in the Book of Mormon."
The school board doesn't meet for a month. I've given Billy very definite instructions that at prayer time each day he's to go out into the hallway. I plan to be at that board meeting. If they don't do something about this situation, I'll sue. I'll take it all the way to the Supreme Court if I have to. I don't need the schools or anybody else teaching my son about religion. We can take care of that ourselves at home and at church, thank you very much.
Give my love to Sandi and the boys.
Your buddy,
Juan

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." First Amendment, Bill of Rights, U.S. Constitution

"No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust." (Art. VI), The Constitution

"The day that this country ceases to be free from religion, it will cease to be free for religion." Robert H. Jackson

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." James Madison

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law."
Thomas Paine

"I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end... where every man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice." President John F. Kennedy

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Thomas Jefferson

"America wisely has taken the middle course--neither for nor against religion. Neutrality offends no one, and protects everyone." Dan Barker

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." John Adams, 1797-05-27, Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" James Madison 1785

"Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and the state forever separated." Ulysses S. Grant

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy." George Washington

"When opinions are free, either in matters of government or religion, truth will finally and powerfully prevail." Thomas Paine.

"The freedom of the individual and rights of conscience will have no place in a society where government espouses a particular religious view of morality, one that has no room for deviation from the norm." Arlene Carmen

"No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbelieves, for church attendance or nonattendance."
US Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black

"Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience. " George Washington in a letter to the United Baptist 1789

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and state."
President Thomas Jefferson, 1802 letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut

"The United States is not a Christian nation. It is a great nation with Christians, among others, in it. But our greatness is based on the fact that there is no official religion." Sen. Lowell Wicker

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." Benjamin Franklin

"All religions united with government are more or less inimical to liberty. All separated from government, are compatible with liberty."
Henry Clay March 24, 1818

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
James Madison

"I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State; that public moneys shall not be used for the purpose of advancing any particular creed; and therefore that the public schools shall be nonsectarian and no public moneys appropriated for sectarian schools." Theodore Roosevelt

"I do not believe that any type of religion should ever be introduced into the public schools of the United States." Thomas Edison

"No man shall be compelled to support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever .... To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical. All men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion."
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Statute for Establishing Religious Freedom 1776



http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.html
http://www.au.org/
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http://www.freedomforum.org/
http://www.interfaithalliance.org/
http://www.bjcpa.org/
http://www.ifas.org/
http://www.aclu.org/
http://members.aol.com/gr8kat1/KatGen/1st_amendment.htm
http://www.aclu.org/issues/religion/hmrf.html
http://w3.trib.com/FACT/
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
http://www.ffrf.org/quiz.html
http://www.ffrf.org/issues/pray.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/
http://www.ffrf.org/articles/pledge1983.html
http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/nov01/barker.html
http://www.infidels.org/org/coalition/
http://www.atheists.org/public.square/
http://www.alligator.org/edit/issues/96-sumr/960523/d2ami23.htm
http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html
http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm
http://www.vineyard.net/vineyard/history/pledge.htm
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067499
http://afgen.com/nochurch.html
http://members.aol.com/gr8kat1/KatGen/1st_amendment2.htm#Story
http://www.deism.com/thinksam18.htm
http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/court/
http://www.religious-freedom.org/
http://www.atheists.org/schoolhouse/
http://www.apocryphum.com/dirtyhippy/libert.html
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ithacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. excellent!!!
that's great, thanks SharonAnn!

I'd only add a Wiccan just for the zing...
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
12. At my daughter's old elementary school, they advertised bible study!
They put it in the school newsletter. The woman that ran the group was allowed to use the office machines at school for her bible study held at school during lunch. We complained.. to no avail.
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mrdmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 04:19 AM
Response to Original message
13. I dislike to have to point this out
A lawyer for the Crestview Local School District said it distributes notices to students about various non-profit organizations' activities, including 4-H Club, YMCA and Little League baseball, not just church-sponsored events. The schools' lawyer asked the Sixth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to reverse a judge's 2002 ruling that forbids the district to give students any notices that advertise religious activities.

YMCA: Young Mens Christian Association

YWCA: Young Womens Christian Association

I know the YMCA and the YWCA do not sit down and pray and push religious principals upon people who participate with there activities. But, still is a connection and has been for a long time.
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Well, thanks, but I already knew what YMCA stood for.
And sending a flyer for YMCA Junior Indoor T-Ball Signups is a little different than sending a flyer announcing your church's (Christian) Bible Study group. (or whatever the original flyer was supposed to be about). My daughter played Indoor T-Ball sponsored by the local Y, and not once during any practices or games was God, Jesus, or any other deity mentioned. Not once.

Wait till the Children's Auxilliary of the Satanist Club sends an invitation in your child's school envelope. How well do you think that will go over?
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