Muslims Take Offense to Footage of Bodies

[Nambe]

BAGHDAD, Iraq July 25 — (AP)

Images of Odai and Qusai Hussein's battered corpses, broadcast across the Arab world, angered some Muslims, who said U.S. treatment of the bodies violated Islam's rules for dealing with the dead. ---

"Showing dead and deformed bodies on TV is not acceptable," protested Amer Ahmed al-Azawi, a 55-year-old Baghdad merchant. "But the Americans are criminals and unbelievers. We got rid of one tyrant and we ended up with a bigger one."

Muslims bury their dead as quickly as possible, preferably before the sun sets on the day they die, a practice enforced by a Muslim saying: a fast burial is the highest honor to the memory of a deceased loved one.

And the rituals before burial are far simpler than those practiced in the West.

The dead are simply washed, shrouded in white cloth and buried. No embalming is carried out, and bodies are not rebuilt or retouched to look as they did in life. Autopsies are not performed unless the deceased is a murder victim or died in mysterious circumstances. In life and in death, Islamic scholars say, the sanctity of a Muslim body must be respected.

"What happened is a mutilation of the body of the dead," said Souad Saleh, an Islamic theologian who sits on a committee entrusted with issuing fatwas, or edicts, at Egypt's Al-Azhar University, the world's highest seat of Sunni Muslim learning.

"But the Americans are infidels, and whatever Islam says doesn't apply to them," he said. ---

[Heddi]

1. This statement says it all

We got rid of one tyrant and we ended up with a bigger one

Rejoicing in the streets, showering troops with flowers, eh?

We "liberating" those people like the Conquistadores "liberated" the Incas

[ColumbusGirl]

31. You took the words out of my mouth...

I thought it was the perfect description.

[study_war_no_more]

46. They have just added to the resistance with their slap in the face

Now we will have Jihad added to the ranks of Bathe party and "outside insurgents"

[clarkbarr]

67. Utter and absolute stupidity from the Usual Gang of Assholes

What will these Likudniks think of next??????

[Kanola]

71. The Shrub 43 administration is culturally bereft of any sense

One of the most glaring things that have stuck out to me as Shrub 43 has gotten us into this mess is how this stupid administration does not understand or have one tiny microscopic clue about how to deal with other cultures. Particulary (and I do not stop there) the Muslim culture. Shrub 43 and company think they can abide by American/Western culture customs and apply it to everybody. This is one area where the adminstration is totally lost and does not comprehend how to build post war Iraq. If they keep this crap up we will never be out of there. IMHO.

:grr:

[wontmoveon]

74. I am not a Muslim and I took offense at the footage!

We are the lowest of the low!

[_Jumper_]

2. Where was the outrage when Uday and Qusay were killing innocent people?

?

[oneighty]

9. How do you know

U&Q were killing innocent people? Were you there? Did you see it?

Agreed, I was not there either, so I do not know one way or the other.

It is dfficult to believe people with ulterior motives.

180

[arcane1]

12. Bush's have lied about Iraq since the 'babies in incubators' lies

you can simply NOT trust them in this matter

period


nothing they say can be taken at face value

[NickB79]

19. Of course, these stories were coming out throughout the 90's

Of atrocities committed by Saddam's soldiers under control of his sons, and of atrocities directly by his sons. These stories were present not only during the Bush presidencies, but also during Clinton's two terms. If they were simply propaganda, why were Iraqi's telling these stories when Bush's weren't in power?

But like already mentioned, this is a strawman argument: it has no bearing on the Muslim beliefs of burial.

[oneighty]

26. Bush or Clinton

Makes no difference BS is BS.

180

[lightbulb]

30. Agreed. Don't believe the hype.

Imaginary "no fly zones" (only recognized by a few western nations, not the UN) were in place over northern and southern Iraq throughout Clinton's two terms. US planes attacked Iraqi targets (and killed a lot of Iraqis) on a regular basis in response to the "provocations" that these zones were designed to encourage. The devastation our sanctions caused to the Iraqi population is also well known.

We have had a policy of aggression toward Iraq since the first Gulf War. The US propaganda machine was not switched off under Clinton, though it may have been a bit less out of control than it is now. In any case, most of our impressions as Americans of what goes on inside Iraq, or what evil deeds have been committed by who's sons, have been and still are undeniably tainted and warped.

[ColumbusGirl]

32. Little bit out of control?

This is a little bit out of control? I'd hate see mayhem.

[diamond14]

65. bush* bloated human head trophy display: REAL out-of-control

bush* is openly ordering political assassinations by our military...and then BRAGGING about it, and parading his trophy bloated human heads all over every-TV-in-the-whole-wide- world...smiling, bragging, proud of his biggest accomplishment...

and the saddest part is that Americans are CHEERING...bush* TV cheerleaders are encouraging it...expect more polical assassinations by our soldiers soon, world-wide....people love the thrill-of-the-kill, and can't get enough of the bloated-human-head-trophies...

it's WRONG...and it's REAL OUT-OF-CONTROL....

[twilight]

38. right you are

You cannot believe anything coming from the BFEE! They are evil!

I cannot blame Muslims for being outraged! I am outraged as well! This is a new low for the BFEE! They are truly scraping the bottom of the bucket the LOSERS!!!! :grr:

I had never known of these two sons of Saddam nor the grandson. How can I say whether or not I think they were bad or good when all I have is a pack of lies to filter through!

:dem:

[study_war_no_more]

47. But we do know Bush killed

innocent iraqians by the score and a six year old girl was shot in the head on the same day the brothers were executed illegally without a trial.

[Tempest]

13. Strawman

What does your post have to do with the violation of Islamic rules for dealing the dead, and the article?

[oldcoot]

17. I doubt that Uday or Qusay had too many fans

They are not upset that Uday and Qusay are dead. They are upset with how the bodies are being treated. Many cultures have strict rules about what can or cannot be done to a dead body even if the dead person was a bad person. Even in the United States, the government generally does not display the body of person who has just been executed. Had administration officials, especially those in the Pentagon, consulted with experts in Islam and the Middle East they might have known better than to display the bodies. Unfortunately, this administration does not seem interested in the opinions of experts.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leesa]

36. I doubt they did 9-11

We caused the problems in Somalia. And we are the bad guys in Iraq. Do you mean Muslims? I think perhaps you need to do a little more research beyond American propaganda

[PsychoDad]

41. Islamics ?

I belive the term you are searching for is MUSLIM. But, I guess being a christianic or jewishic, wiccanic, buddistic, atheistic or whateveric you wouldn't know. (/sarcasm)

Where do you people get this stuff? Do you simply hear it and parrot it like a mindless zombie???

As for the above mentioned incident in somalia and 911, Islam does not endorse such actions. These are the actions of warlords, mobs and criminals. None of which make for good muslims

[study_war_no_more]

48. and you sir fail to connect dots

No connection to Somolia or 9/11. In fact if you were really upset about 9/11 you would be at the whitehouse because that is where the criminal lives so don't come justifing murder with lies that belong on nazi radio talk shows you fool.

[susu369]

34. Thank you, oldcoot - by the way which is it

"Arabs are shocked by television images"....OR

http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3144243

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. officials were debating whether to release graphic photos of the dead sons of Saddam Hussein to prove to Iraqis they were killed by American troops, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said on Wednesday.
--snip--
"Standards are different for different regions of the world for television. In the United States, our standards for network television are more conservative than those in other places in the world. Specifically, the Arab world has no problem at all with showing very gruesome photos of human beings," the (defence)official said.

--snip - Did you catch that "No problem.."

This morning on C-Span's Washington Journal, Laura Goering from The Chicago Tribune, parroted the same garbage about "that Arab world."

---

:kick:

[Trek234]

68. There was a lot of outrage

The point is you do NOT go in to a region that is deeply religious (when your dominant religion already pisses them off, same for your politics and nation) and DISRESPECT the native religion that is deeply valued.

That's called asking for it.

[Spazito]

3. Geez! I didn't think about the importance of immediate burial...

it is VERY important to them! Way to go Shrub, one more MAJOR faux pas!

[Pallas180]

4. Nothing the Americans do will be acceptable. Period. First they

want to be rid of the thugs, then they hate the Americans
for violating the burial rites for "honored" Muslims.

Did they honor Qday and Usay? as loved ones? hmmmm

[Pallas180]

6. Some comedian said, if it were up to him they'd be buried facing WEST

with a bottle of Jack Daniels and ham sandwich
in the coffin.

Think about that.

[AntiCoup2K4]

15. I don't know about the JD and ham sandwich, but.....

..the "facing West" part would be entirely proper. The Muslims in this hemisphere pray to the East because that is the direction of Mecca from their perspective. However, Mecca is west, or more accurately, southwest, of Iraq.

[twilight]

39. Unfortunately I find nothing funny about this ...

Sorry, I guess my sense of humor has dried up.

This is not funny. Not funny at all.

:kick:

[Barrett808]

11. White man's burden, Lloyd.

White man's burden.

It's a no-win sceanrio for the US as long as we're occupiers. Everything we do will offend substantial numbers of Iraqis, and we will be responsible for everything that goes wrong.

[study_war_no_more]

50. Manifest destiny Maynard

Question: How can you shoot women and children like that?
Answer: We just give them a shorter lead.

[study_war_no_more]

49. we own your oil we own your bodies we own your souls

Do you doubt it? we got 45,000 teenagers with guns that fucking hate you and your country.

[booksenkatz]

5. I was wondering about

early burial, but I figured that since these 2 were so hated, that everyone would be happy that all of the usual death customs are being violated. Au contraire, the Iraqis are quite offended with how we infidels are handling these bodies. Once again, it is their country, culture, religion, and belief system that they are defending, NOT the Hussein family. It's the principle that's bothering them.

Killing these 2 men, and violating these customs, is not going to improve matters. The pasty-faced cracker boys should have taken these men alive and let the Iraqis deal with them; short of that, having killed them, they should have let the Iraqis deal with the bodies. We're like a bull in a china shop over there, criminy.

[Pallas180]

8. Agreed PATS-but if we had given them bodies they would have torn

apart or hung them up like Mussolini and then the entire
Western world would have vomited on the Americans.

No way to win.

The entire country is a tarbaby, as the English learned
a century ago......but dimwit doesn't read, much less
know history.

LUV yr picture. mind if I copy????

[booksenkatz]

14. You're right, of course

There's no way for Bush's America to win. He's played a big role in teaching the entire world to hate us at this point, no matter what we do. Which reminds me: America in Iraq is not really a bull in a china shop. We're cousin Eddie in "National Lampoon," emptying our camper toilet into the sewer... shitter was full.

Enjoy the pic! You also might like this one:

[walkon]

7. Americans take offense to footage of bodies.

Is there a poll? I believe most Americans of all religions find this whole charade offensive. It is an act of depravity from a totally corrupt bunch of thugs!

[Pallas180]

10. clash of cultures. They dont mind dead bodies. We do. We do not

and likely never will understand the Middle Eastern mind.

And that includes both native born Israelis, not immigrants
and Arabs.

[mbperrin]

16. This is an act of depravity - burying the dead is just about as

basic as it gets - after all, we didn't want them alive and talkin' now, did we? Hmmmm?


Oh, and as for the demoralizing effects, anyone "Remember the Alamo"?

I do believe a large force killed a whole buncha folks, and it just didn't really take the heart out of the survivors....in fact, it sorta focused them, even the ones who had some questions about William Travis Barrett or others: questions resolved!

[headlouse]

22. Americans weren't the intended audience

Iraq and the surrounding countries were. The only reason they showed the bodies was because nobody over there believes us and several iraqs demanded we show them. Americans on the other hand will believe anything the media/government tells them. Also, the PR guys at Bush Co. are really image concious -- I really doubt they would have shown those images if they didn't have to. Remember our culural lense is very different from theirs.

On that note, their was a really interesting cultural point in the article... Muslims took offense mainly at the fact that they weren't buried immediately as per Muslim tradition. Since they don't embalm or pretty up their dead the gore wasn't as much an issue. Americans on the other hand are most likely offended by the gore and could care less that the bodies aren't buried yet.

[slackmaster]

18. We can't win for losing

If the photos of the corpses had not been released, everyone would be denying that the two mouseketeers are dead.

[DemBones DemBones]

20. Iraqi TV news showed Iraqis calling for the bodies to be shown on

TV, and news from the Middle East often shows dead bodies (usually Palestinians.) You can see Middle Eastern news broadcasts on World Link TV.

On the other hand, the facial rebuilding with mortician's putty and the autopsies were probably a bad idea. Best would probably have been to wash the bodies, take more photos, and turn them over for burial.

No, wait -- what if we had captured them rather than killing them? Lots of Iraqis would have preferred that because they wanted to see them suffer. One man said he had wanted to see them in small cages in the zoo.

[Q]

21. Why were autopsies done?

- I can't think of a reason why the US needed to perform an autopsy...which is usually done to determine the cause of death. It's pretty clear how they died.

[arcane1]

25. and where did the mortician's putty come from?

in a region where it isn't even used, how does the US military end up with these supplies? :shrug:

[NYC]

43. That's an excellent question.

Why would they have mortician's putty on hand? It wouldn't be used on killed U.S. troops before shipping the bodies. What a waste of someone's time that would be in a war zone.

Why was the mortician's putty there?

[demdave]

23. Like the Somali Muslums dragging or pilots through the streets

Bitch and moan.

[Julien Sorel]

27. The usual nonsense.

Iraq and Somalia are different countries. 9/11 has been used to justify the war, people like you are using Somalia to justify this, what else are we going to take out on Iraq? Let's start mailing Iraqi leaders some anthrax -- after all, someone did it to us. Might as well get the Iraqis for it.

[demdave]

29. Muslims....that is who I was talking about

You have no problem painting with a broad brush..."people like you ", so I would think you would have understood this.

[Julien Sorel]

37. I see. So Muslims in Somalia drug bodies around,

and that justifies Americans in Iraq exhibiting crass and culturally insensitive behavior?

[study_war_no_more]

52. ahh so you are a racist

"people like you" will always hang themselves in time.

[Forkboy]

44. I wish I had a special alert function

that would let me know when you actually post a progressive thought.

[study_war_no_more]

51. by this arguement i would hate to see the list of american atrocities

they hand you when they knock on your door.

[JackSwift]

24. It's offensive to everyone

They should have had a discreet viewing for locals and some archive photos.

[Gin]

28. The autopsy was done to remove his heart...and give it to *..who doesn't

have one...

[DemonFighterLives]

40. That makes the most sense

Our military and administration treating these men like some trophy is sickening.

[diamond14]

73. bush* bloated human head trophy display is REAL offensive

to most all Americans...the only people cheering are the really sick freeper types who are THRILLED WITH THE KILL...

this ghastly display of "bush* bloated human head trophies" is waking up lots of regular normal Americans...the "SIMMERING MAJORITY"

bush* is REALLY out-of-control....

-declaring pre-emptive wars against countries that pose no threat
-clusterbombing innocent civilians
-ordering political assassinations to be done by our soldiers
-triumphally displaying bush* 'bloated human head trophies' on TV
-bragging about the THRILL OF THE KILL....
-rumsfeld: "will more American soldiers be killed?...YOU BET!"

the SIMMERING MAJORITY is getting ready to
RE-Defeat bush* in 2004....

[Redleg]

42. No shit- those geniuses at the Defense Dept. don't know shit.

[veronica]

45. Al Jazeera

I watch Al Jazeera all the time and they're not exactly shy about showing violence and gore (much less shy than the American/British news sources I watch), so I'm not sure where the offense comes in. Was it that the bodies were of Iraqis or ... ?

Does anyone actually know what the beliefs are? (I don't.)

[Imajika]

57. I was thinking the same...

"I watch Al Jazeera all the time and they're not exactly shy about showing violence and gore (much less shy than the American/British news sources I watch)"

As soon as I read this headline that is exactly what I was thinking.

Al Jazeera shows dead bodies all the time - including lots of maimed and dead Muslims. They also are plenty happy to show dead and wounded Americans.

If the US had not shown the bodies the headlines would read, "America Refuses to Prove Saddam's Sons are Dead".

"so I'm not sure where the offense comes in."

I don't believe they are offended. I suspect the people quoted in this article just don't like America and would complain about anything we do.

"But the Americans are infidels, and whatever Islam says doesn't apply to them," he said.

I loved this line in the article. Personally, I am more than happy to remain an infidel so long as Islamic Law never applies to me.

Imajika

[Julien Sorel]

58. Did either of you even read the article?

The issue wasn't the showing of the bodies, it was the failure to promptly bury them:

Muslims bury their dead as quickly as possible, preferably before the sun sets on the day they die, a practice enforced by a Muslim saying: a fast burial is the highest honor to the memory of a deceased loved one.

And,

"What happened is a mutilation of the body of the dead," said Souad Saleh, an Islamic theologian who sits on a committee entrusted with issuing fatwas, or edicts, at Egypt's Al-Azhar University, the world's highest seat of Sunni Muslim learning.

The Koran specifically forbids the 'cutting' or dishonoring of bodies, which is generally interpreted to include the kind of resconstruction the U.S. did to these corpses.

[Imajika]

59. Yes BillyBunter, I did..

..read the article.

"The issue wasn't the showing of the bodies, it was the failure to promptly bury them"

No, that was ONE of the issues. There was also this:

"It goes against Islamic sharia laws to display bodies of fallen soldiers to influence enemy morale," said al-Qassim, who spoke from the Saudi capital, Riyadh.

This complaint is about showing the bodies, not about the failure to bury them promptly.

Further, this is a load of rubbish. Arab TV, to include Al Jazeera, show dead and/or wounded Americans at every single possible opportunity.

And I continue to believe that the complaints I read in this article are hogwash. I don't believe most of these people were really offended, I suspect these same people would complain about American actions no matter we did. Infact, I've very little doubt that if we had not shown the bodies there would have been a chorus of complaints about the Americans not being willing to prove that the Hussein brothers were really dead.

Imajika

edited for spelling

[Julien Sorel]

60. They quote one guy about the televising.

The real problem is the violation of the Koran:

And I continue to believe that the complaints I read in this article are hogwash. I don't believe most of these people were really offended, I suspect these same people would complain about American actions no matter we did. Infact, I've very little doubt that if we had not shown the bodies there would have been a chorus of complaints about the Americans not being willing to prove that the Hussein brothers were really dead.

Let's take off the moral blinders for a moment, and look at this from a purely pragmatic standpoint. The U.S., correctly or incorrectly, is viewed as being hostile to Islam. Muslims in general, and Arab Muslims in particular, have lots of reasons to be suspicious about American attitudes towards them: seemingly limitless support for Israel; propping up repressive dictators all throughout the M.E. (including Saddam at one point); this war; and the continued belligerent rhetoric towards Muslim Syria and Iran, while a potentially much more dangerous threat, North Korea, is handled with kid gloves by comparison.

The U.S. has claimed to be committed to bringing a western-style democracy to the region, but in order to achieve that, they have literally centuries of suspicions and grievances to overcome, going back to the Crusades, which have made Arabs highly suspicious of western intentions towards them and their culture. Under these circumstances, the U.S. should be behaving in a way that is absolutely beyond reproach with these people. The demonstration of the bodies, which violated local customs, retards the achievement of that goal, it doesn't help it. There have been a couple of other suggestions as to how they could have proven these bodies were Saddam's sons; what they actually did was crass by comparison.

[Imajika]

62. That was an excellent reply..

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Your make some good points and I agree with much of what you say here. I think though, that your missing my issue with this story.

"The demonstration of the bodies, which violated local customs"

This is the part I have a problem with, not your historical analysis. I've seen absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it violates local customs. I see dead Muslims on Al Jazeera and other Arab TV channels quite often, and have yet to hear anyone complaining about it.

I don't believe that our showing the corpses violates some sort of custom or media norm. I suspect the complaints listed in this article are not genuine. I do not believe it really offends Muslims to see broadcasts of other dead Muslims. If it did you would think that Abu Dhabi TV and Al Jazeera would be sensitive in their own broadcasting - and networks such as those do not hesitate for a moment to beam pictures of dead Muslims around the world to a presumably largely Islamic audience.

Imajika

edited for spelling

[Julien Sorel]

66. I meant the whole process of demonstrating the bodies.

Not burying them promptly, and dressing them up for the demonstration. The demonstration, in and of itself, was a non-issue, and I see now that my choice of words in that post was poor.

[study_war_no_more]

75. perhaps what offends them

is that we made no mention of the ten thousand innocent casulties of clusterfuckbombing or that these two were totally assasinated by soldiers who supposedly did not know who they were after. They did not want these two talking about former freinds in high places of American Government. They did want a trophey kill and thats what they got, that they paid thirty million for it does not make it legal or moral. As for al-jazeera showing bodies well thats one way of keeping our media honest cause if they did not their would be no mention at all of civialian casulties because our government lies its ass off and the media serves it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. I think they did it on purpose to offend muslims

It's a bit of a psyops thing to do. To so offend the religious sensibilities of a nation they deliberately release them a day late. A sort of morale suppressing thing. I seem to recall an article prior to the war discussing these tactics. I will look for it and post it if I find it.

[study_war_no_more]

55. like cutting ears

mutilating sexual organs mass rapes and burning feet so people cannot transcend to their heaven or nirvana or whatever.
War! its just a hard sell anyway you slice it.

[Turley]

54. I'll take the unpopular view

We were in a lose-lose situation.Bury the bodies immediately and you'll be accused of a cover-up. Display the bodies and you're accused of insensitivity.

I'll also note that Muslims often treat enemy corpses this way, both recently and throughout history. There's plenty enough anecdotal evidence but I'll note that Saddam left many of his opponents' corpses strung up and purposefully didn't allow the families to recover them. Likewise in Palestine Israeli collaborators are oftentimes strung up as a warning to others. Al Jazeera has broadcast such images very recently with no real public outcry even though they are Muslim corpses.

And while we're on the subject of Al Jazeera, I don't recall any public outcry in the Islamic World when they broadcast repeatedly the video of Danny Pearl getting his throat cut and his head hacked off. Then again, he was a Jew wasn't he?

[Julien Sorel]

56. You should open your own seafood restaraunt.

You'd only have one thing on the menu -- red herring -- but there'd be lots of it.

Saddam was an evil dictator. Is that the bar the U.S. is aiming to jump over? You don't win the 'hearts and minds' of a hostile population by doing the exact same things as the government you overthrew -- and yet claim to be superior to.

Pearl's killing was a literal crime. No one celebrated it, and his body wasn't paraded around publicly. If I remember correctly, his killers were brought to justice. Mentioning that he was Jewish was just a particularly cowardly way on your behalf to try to smear Muslims with being anti-semitic. Incidentally, notice the little thinking lapse here: you cite and allude to instances where Muslims made no outcry against the 'stringing up' of other Muslims, but try to suggest that the death of Pearl, who wasn't even 'strung up,' by the way, as an example of ant-semitism. If Muslims didn't 'cry out' in response to the improper burials of other Muslims, why should they be expected to 'cry out' against the death of Daniel Pearl, Jewish or not?

[Imajika]

61. I don't see any red herring..

"you cite and allude to instances where Muslims made no outcry against the 'stringing up' of other Muslims"

Now let us look at this point first.

It is absolutely true that Arab media televises dead Muslims quite often. The example Turley gives about Al Jazeera broadcasting images of dead Palestinians, who were accused and/or convicted of collaborating with Israel, with no real public outcry that I am aware of against either the media outlet or the PA is completely correct.

So why is it that when America shows the bodies of two dead Muslims, who incidentally had terrorized much of their own population, suddenly "some" Muslims are all aghast and offended. Yet, when Al Jazeera beams photos of dead Muslims around the world you never hear anyone complaining about it.

Further, Arab media gleefully shows dead US soldiers any time they get the opportunity. If the Islamic world is so offended at seeing dead people on the news you'd think they would apply the same standard to ANY dead people.

"If Muslims didn't 'cry out' in response to the improper burials of other Muslims, why should they be expected to 'cry out' against the death of Daniel Pearl, Jewish or not?"

That is not the question. The question is were these Muslims who are "offended" about the US showing the video of the Hussein brothers corpses also complaining when Al Jazeera repeatedly showed Daniel Pearl getting his throat slashed? Or is it only worth complaining if the dead body was a Muslim?

"and his body wasn't paraded around publicly."

HA! Daniel Pearl's execution was shown endlessly on Al Jazeera. Apparently seeing that dead body didn't raise the cackles of too many of its regular viewers.

I don't believe any of this. First, I don't believe anyone was seriously "offended" at seeing the dead bodies of Uday and Qusay for the reasons stated in the article. I don't believe this because I know full well that the Arab media shows dead Muslims all the time and I've never read one single story of anyone complaining about it. Second, if by chance anyone was really "offended" for the reasons claimed, I'd want to find out if they would be equally "offended" if the corpse being shown was Jewish.

Imajika

[Julien Sorel]

63. Then you aren't looking very carefully.

A Red Herring is an attempt to confuse an issue by bringing up an unrelated issue and pretending it is related, as a means of shifting the ground of debate. Daniel Pearl is a perfect example: as I pointed out in my other post,(how could you have missed it?), the issue here is not the televising of the bodies, but the violation of the Koran by foreigners. Pearl had nothing to do with that -- his death was a crime, and was largely handled as such.

I don't believe any of this. First, I don't believe anyone was seriously "offended" at seeing the dead bodies of Uday and Qusay for the reasons stated in the article.


Neither do I, and neither does any reasonably knowledgeable person. However, I also know for a fact that the handling of those bodies represented a gross violation of the Koran. In an overwhelmingly Muslim country, of course that's going to offend sensibilities, especially when people are already angry about the occupation.

[Imajika]

69. Yes..

..I know perfectly well what is meant by a Red Herring. My reading of the points the previous poster was making was not that he was injecting a red herring into the debate - rather he was trying to point out, perhaps awkwardly, that showing dead bodies never seemed to "offend" anyone when Al Jazeera was doing so. So was this sudden "offense" because it was Muslim bodies? And is it okay to show the corpse of Jews?

"the issue here is not the televising of the bodies"

Are you disputing that one of the complaints in the article was of our showing the video?

From the article:

"Showing dead and deformed bodies on TV is not acceptable"

and

"It goes against Islamic sharia laws to display bodies of fallen soldiers to influence enemy morale"

There are two complaints right there, from the article, about our just showing the bodies.

I agree that, if we are going to be in Iraq, the US should try its utmost to avoid offending Muslim sensibilities and customs. I just don't believe showing footage of dead Muslims on TV really offended anyone for the reasons stated in the article.

Imajika

[Julien Sorel]

72. The article itself makes plain what the issue was:

Images of Odai and Qusai Hussein's battered corpses, broadcast across the Arab world, angered some Muslims, who said U.S. treatment of the bodies violated Islam's rules for dealing with the dead.

This is the lead of the piece. It sets the context for the rest of the article, and makes it clear that the issue was not the televising of the bodies itself, but the failure to treat the bodies in line with Muslim practice. The single quotation (which might have been presented out of context), is the only thing in the article that could be construed as indicating that the problem was with the televising of the bodies, yet you continue to return to it.

"It goes against Islamic sharia laws to display bodies of fallen soldiers to influence enemy morale"

Daniel Perle and Palestinian collaborators are fallen soldiers?

[diamond14]

70. bush* parading bloated human heads around on TV is WRONG

it's just WRONG...for lots of reasons...most reasonable people understand that...and the bragging, gloating, and cheering about it is WRONG....bush* is clearly THRILLED WITH THE KILL...

bush has now reached a hitler pinnacle...bush* is now pre-emptively invading sovereign nations, ordering political assassinations to be done by our military...and parading his trophy bloated human heads around on TV, while his TV talkers encourage cheers and glorification from the American public....

expect even more upcoming political assassinations done by our military, along with additional pre-emptive wars world-wide...(bush* has troops in about 160 countries now, so the political assassinations by our military could happen anywhere bush* chooses)...

it's notable that bush* uses our military for his assassinations, guaranteeing plenty of innocents will die too...he could just quietly send in the CIA...

[study_war_no_more]

76. if muslims killed tens of thousands of americans bringing george bush

to justice and then showed us the body to prove that it really was dubwa???

[Gloria]

64. Randi Rhodes hit the nail on the head yesterday...

Good riddance to both of them....but, by parading the pictures around and offending Muslim burial practices, the Bush boys have probably created martyrs of the two of them among many Iraqis, even those who hated them. And if not martyrs, they've just plain pissed of Iraqis who don't like to see their religious practices stepped on.

[alaine]

77. According to a NYT story a day or two ago, the

guerilla attacks against the U.S are getting more sophisticated all of a sudden, one of the commanders over there speculated it might be retaliation for the death of the sons. I absolutely believe they were thugs and murderers, why wouldn't they be? The are the sons of a thug, like father like shrub, er, son.

Why is everyone so convinced that these really were the sons? Do they have DNA? The corpses look as much like the sons as the would any other living person with dark hair and eyes. I still have not heard anything about DNA evidence. It's entirely possible the U.S set this up for political reasons and the 30 mil will show back up in U.S coffers in a little while, minus small fees for the people who I.D.d and the actor with the tip-off.

I too believe this was an intimidation tactic. People were requesting the photos because the actually believed that the sons would look at least a little like themselves, which they do not, so the photos are useless and have only served one purpose. During the conflict I heard reporters from the middle east having to explain over and over again "Just because they hate Sadam doesn't mean they LOVE America." Rummy et al. are aparently having a hard time grasping that these people are not stupid and want us the hell out of their country regardless. How many American soldiers have to die before this message gets across? I also wonder how many Americans have died from weapons that have passed through the BFEE and Cheney businesses in one way or another.