ICE: Nearly 600 detained in Miss. plant raid

[RamboLiberal]

Source: Breitbart.com/AP

LAUREL, Miss. (AP) - Federal officials say nearly 600 suspected illegal immigrants were detained in a raid on a manufacturing plant in southern Mississippi, making it the largest such sweep in the country.

A spokeswoman says more than 100 of those caught up in Monday's raid on Howard Industries were released based on humanitarian concerns, mostly because they have children.

Most of the rest were transferred to a federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement facility in Jena, La. Nine 17-year-olds were transferred to the custody of the Office of Refugee Resettlement.

The Mississippi raid was one of a series of recent high-profile crackdowns on illegal immigrants. In May, officials swept into the Agriprocessors kosher meatpacking plant in Iowa and detained 400 workers.


Read more: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D92Q6K480&show_article=1

---

I hope there is a helluva big fine for the employer on this. This country is resembling the industrial conditions at the turn of the last century!

On edit here's Howard Industry website. http://www.howard-ind.com/DefaultPage.asp

Don't tell me if a decent wage was paid that this kind of industry couldn't find all the workers it needs in Mississippi!

[amandabeech]

1. The company also probably doesn't want workers who might complain about

unsafe working conditions in the plant.

Also, citizens and legal immigrants might *demand health care benefits* or *****JOIN a UNION****!

Employers who do this shouldn't just get a huge fine, IMHO, but they should also do some time. That'd get their attention more than anything else.

[EFerrari]

2. We never hear about citizens caught up in these sweeps

and they always are.

If a decent wage was enforced, the field would be level and the employers would have nowhere to hide.

[bean fidhleir]

116. Yep, do wage and benefits enforcement, if necessary by selling off the company to pay

full back wages and benefit assessments. Make it so any undoc person retroactively gets a *massive* paycheck before being sent home. And if there's anything left over, levy a fine that finishes the job.

One or two such actions and a whole lot of wealthy exploiters would have a come-to-jesus experience.

[Michigan Soldier]

3. This is where I differ from Kennedy and Obama

I am a union Democrat. I am pro American and pro American worker. I am 100 percent against our jobs being undercut by illegal aliens. Our taxes need to go to Americans for healthcare, education, police protection etc. My brother, a union roofer with a wife and 4 kids was laid off and replaced by a non union illegal alien. So now they are helplessly searching for a job in this economy, but yet millions of illegals are here taking the few jobs left.

I understand that some jobs have to be done by illegals. But less than 2% of illegal aliens in the United States work in the fields. I do feel that our party and most unions does sell out our borders and American workers for future votes. But how are we going to push for universal healthcare and a balanced budget when millions of taxpayers are out of work?

[Ian David]

6. Illegal workers do the jobs Americans DON'T want, while corporations outsource the jobs we DO want.

We don't have an illegal worker problem.

We have an illegal employer problem.

You arrest the people hiring and exploiting the illegal workers, they'll stop coming here.

But next you have to address the reasons why they want to come here in the first place.

And for that, you start with NAFTA and The WTO.

[amandabeech]

17. Factory jobs appeal to a certain sector of the U.S. population.

Lots of folks in my home state of Michigan used to do them. Michigan papers should run this story so that maybe some layed off autoworkers will read about this raid and apply. Goodness knows that the number of factory jobs in Michigan have declined.

[AlphaCentauri]

28. Hispanics will be replaced by Somali immigrants

there is no way Americans want those jobs

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/09/AR2008080901332.html

[amandabeech]

34. You picked an extremely bad example.

I suggest that you research the history of this particular plant before you rely on it as an example.

I know people who have and would still like to work in factories if position could be had, and believe me they are native born.

You need to get out more and take off your very thick 360 degree blinders!

Extremely ill-informed individuals like you who believe all the bigoted corporatist, yes, HUGELY corporatist garbage on what Americans will or will not do are not helping this country cope with its enormous economic problems.

[AlphaCentauri]

38. FYI: Muslim Somali immigrants have the same rights as native born Americans

Many of them are member of Unions
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/06/us/06muslim.html

Replacing hispanic immigrants with other immigrants its a trent, raids are not focus on asian, african or european immigrants, but for the bigots who hate hispanics Jobs had been their Trojan horse.

[DainBramaged]

39. YOU are completely wrong

[AlphaCentauri]

40. Why?

[DainBramaged]

43. Because the owners Purposely try to hire illegals so they

pay LESS than prevailing wages and don't have to pay benefits. You have no idea how this works none. The UNION workers in the pant were cheering when ICE showed up, because MANAGEMENT perpetrated this crap.

That shit you wrote is a typical Right-wing talking point to encourage illegal workers. Claiming Americans won't do certain jobs because they are beneath them.

[joeglow3]

48. DING DING DING DING. We have a winner

All you have to do is read The Grapes of Wrath to see a great example of what flooding the supply side of labor does.

[AlphaCentauri]

51. War Against the Weak?

Lets take the hispanic hate vail out

Much of the growth in the union movement over the past decade has been due to an influx of immigrant workers. The number of immigrant workers who are union members grew by 30 percent from 1996 to 2006. At the same time, the number of native-born union members decreased by some 9 percent.

http://blog.aflcio.org/2007/08/30/immigrant-union-membership-grew-30-percent-in-last-decade/

[Michigan Soldier]

57. The reason native union membership declined is...

because they lost their jobs initially to illegal aliens and then when enough aliens worked there, they pushed for a union. All this whille many Americans lost their jobs. And it still benefited the company because if a $15 per hour worker was pushed out for an alien at $7 per hour and a union later started and doubled their wage, the company was still only paying $14 per hour not to mention the three years it took to organize where the company got away with paying $7 per hour and no benefits or workers comp.

[joeglow3]

59. DING DING DING DING. ANOTHER winner

Plus this is the case in states that are not "right to work" states. We live in Nebraska, which means the union has no real power under state law. Their power comes from a union being in place, as most companies here can easily avoid one being created. Thus, all illegals did was destroy every union drywalling company in town except one. Sad when the profession was almost completely unionized 30 years ago and now only ONE small company is still union.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pampango]

63. "The" reason or "one of the" reasons. You seem to be solely blaming

illegal aliens for the decline in the union membership for native born Americans. I would guess that the outsourcing of many manufacturing jobs and years of Repub labor policies have more to do with it than poor workers from Central America.

[joeglow3]

68. Kind of hard to outsource some professions

and yet the EXACT same thing is happening (see my comments on Drywallers). Thus, while I oppose outsourcing jobs, that has NO impact on drywalling jobs.

[AlphaCentauri]

73. Here is another example

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3456919

[joeglow3]

106. So, I take it you oppose outsourcing of jobs...

...but support insourcing of illegal immigrants? Either way, the US workers gets screwed. Only difference is that under the latter, we get the added social costs to pay as a society.

[JVS]

89. Consider illegal immigration the delivery version of outsourcing and the distinction ends

Suppose I'm a farmer. I buy a tractor that has been built cheaply in Mexico. But since I can't send my fields to Mexico for harvesting, I hire immigrants who think $6/hr is a fair wage

[AlphaCentauri]

65. So Unions were failing big, then they found someone to blame for

then the same people they blamed it's turning unions into a stream of hope.

Let's be realistic union leaders were completely numbed by reaganomics until they woke up in a bad dream.

[AlphaCentauri]

49. I can't see any proof that raids are helping Americans get Jobs

I did post an example where Somali immigrants replaced Hispanic immigrants after a raid, so I concluded that all this statements about hispanic illegal immigrants are taking union american jobs is just crap. The Nazi propaganda all over again. Nobody has shown any proof of non immigrants taking those jobs, I'm waiting for it.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coalition_unwilling]

56. Clinton pushed through NAFTA. Don't you think that might have

at least something to do with it?

[Michigan Soldier]

58. NAFTA sent our jobs to Mexico. Haven't we given them enough?

NAFTA shoudl have encouraged people to stay in their country and work. Now we are being undercutted by our jobs leaving to Central America and then to add insult to injury, they take our jobs at home also..LOL Clinton gave us NAFTA and Obama will give us open borders. Scary that our great party can sometimes be our own worst enemy...LOL

[coalition_unwilling]

61. NAFTA also sent our subsidized agricultural products to Mexico,

undermining centuries-old small-landholder subsistence farming. When those peasants, now landless, relocated to Mexico's cities there were no jobs there to support them. NAFTA allowed for the free movement of goods and capital across arbitrary borders, but made no provisions for the free movement of labor across those same borders, nor any meaningful environmental or labor protections for those diplaced by afore-mentioned movement of capital across borders.

I blame NAFTA (and Clinton and HW Bush) for this.

[AlphaCentauri]

67. Yep! , more than 60 billions subsidize the US agriculture

small Mexican farmers can't compete with that

[AlphaCentauri]

60. Kennedy's view of the problem is the humanitarian side

legalization would eliminate many of the problems. Legal hispanic immigrants will join the Unions without a problem, actually they are the ones who are giving new life to the Union movement. On the other hand eliminating 12 millions by legalizing them will make the law enforcement efforts much simpler.

[Michigan Soldier]

66. What humanitarian about union workers out of work and on welfare?

Maybe Kennedy and Obama should realize it is us that vote them in. And if we are unemployed, we defintely cannot give to their campaigns. And if we legalize the 12 million here, more will stream in until we seal the border and fine employers. Plus each of those 12 million under Kennedy's paln would have been eligible to sponsor at least four family members to come here also within five years. So our population would have exploded upwards of 100 miilion in 5 years. Our hospitals, roads, police, environment, and employment just to name a few could not handle it. Then to mention that immigrants have 33% more babies than the native born Americans and that could be millions more. Already, 20% of Mexicos population reside in the USA.

[AlphaCentauri]

69. So what would you do with the 12 millions?

make them union members or have those jobs outsourced to India or China?

"Then to mention that immigrants have 33% more babies than the native born Americans and that could be millions more."

Wow!!! what's the problem there? I don't get it.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pampango]

71. "what's the problem there?" The usual answer: They ain't like us and they are having more babies.

Got to watch out for those Hispanics having babies - you know. :banghead: Didn't conservative whites used to say the same thing about African-Americans?

Does the answer "They ain't like us and they are having more babies" sound more like a Dem or a repub?

[AlphaCentauri]

72. "Honorable Union Members" pollute this forum with republican points of view

[JVS]

88. That's what McCain meant when talking about Americans not being willing to pick lettuce for $50/hr

[sentelle]

22. the answer is simple

Start the fine low, say $1000. But for every worker found working illegally, raise the fine exponentially.

The first illegal worker, they employer is fined $1000, for the second, $2000, the third $4000, the fifth $16000, the sixth $256000, on up. This way the law can understand that companies make mistakes, but when the mistakes pile up, they are obviously not mistakes.

[Ian David]

23. I say you fine them one grain of rice for the first illegal worker, two grains of rice for the 2nd..

That works, too!

[Igel]

26. I always have the same response.

Make it possible for employers to only implausibly deny knowledge.

As it is, the I-9 folk need to be able to examine any one of scores of IDs--many of which look good--and not just indicate doubt, but show forgeries. That's not their main job, and as IDs change, they have to stay abreast. They don't, because the law just says to keep a copy and spot obvious forgeries.

As long as they can claim they don't know, most won't care. It's easier. Esp. since if you decide to check just the Spanish-speakers' IDs, you're discriminating on the basis of national origin or ethnicity, and civil rights groups would love to have a class action suit.

Congress, when they changed the law in the '80s and required I-9s, also committed to setting up a system to allow employers to easily check eligibility.

In precisely the same way Congress committed to setting up a nuclear waste depository. The only problem: Making sure *Congress* follows the law, when Congress rights the laws and makes them toothless as far as Congress' liability is concerned, is a non-starter.

When mistakes pile up, they often are mistakes. And it's government's job to *show* that the employers broke the law--which isn't just not hiring illegal immigrants, but doing so *knowingly*. Even people we disapprove of get due process. Pity that. Pogroms are much simpler, at least when you have the power.

[The Croquist]

36. I don't buy the "Illegal workers do the jobs Americans DON'T want" mantra.

I think of it this way:
"Illegal workers do the jobs Americans DON'T want to do at the same pay as Illegal workers."

If you eliminate Illegal workers the wages of unskilled or semi-skilled workers will go up significantly. You may have to pay more for the roof or Big Mac but it's always been more expensive to follow the law.

The social service costs to the Federal and State governments will also decrease due to fewer illegal aliens and fewer working poor US citizens and tax revenues will increase. As it stands now using illegal workers, in effect, shifts part of the wages of these people from the employer to the government

[hootinholler]

42. Change that don't want to do at the same wage to Can't afford to do at the same wage

and I'll sign on.

-Hoot

[DainBramaged]

44. That is the Right-wing's excuse for hiring illegals

claiming 'American' don't want these jobs. How come 'Americans' of all races and colors, all of a sudden don't want to work?

I hope the owner of this factory are sent to jail for a long time.

[martymar64]

76. I guess you have a lot of murdering of immigrants to do, then

Let us know how many you can kill before they catch you.

[The Croquist]

110. I wasn't planning on murdering anyone

Just preventing people in this country illegally from taking jobs from US citizens and those here legally.

[coalition_unwilling]

55. Thank you. Finally some common sense - n/t

[MellowDem]

80. Erm, you could not be more wrong.

Americans want jobs that pay well and provide good benefits. It used to be that blue collar jobs did do that, but now thanks to globalization and competition with China and others, those jobs have gone overseas and the ones that have stayed here have seen wage stagnation in the face of inflation. So companies higher illegal aliens to stay competitive (and in some cases to cushion their profits). There is no job an American would not take that paid well and provided quality health coverage with good working conditions, good hours, etc, basically, what we expect thanks to decades of hard work by the labor movement.

I agree we need to go after those who hire illegal workers. As for NAFTA and the WTO, neither are causing the influx of illegal immigrants into the US, if they never existed we would still have the same problem. Both expanded free trade, and in reality have actually increased wealth overall, just at the expense of workers in the US and certain owners of capital in Mexico. Until Mexico and the rest of South America are as well off as we are, we will have an illegal immigration problem. Or if some place like Brazil keeps growing economically, people from South America may find it easier to try to sneak into their economy than come this far north.

Illegal immigration hurts American workers in certain industries but makes us wealthier overall, though the vast majority of that new wealth is concentrated at the top. It also helps ensure that Mexico itself will not see any political change to help Mexican workers or to reform the corrupt Mexican government.

edit: spelling

[Ian David]

95. I'm going to make a prediction. Bookmark this please.

I predict that if we ever end the ability of illegal employers to exploit cheap, undocumented worker labor, it will not create significant new jobs for un-skilled American workers.

Instead, it will spur the creation of new automated devices and robotic systems to perform the tasks previously done by humans.

And I'll also predict that industry will compensate by finding more artificial methods to make inferior crops harvested robotically more commercially appealing, to compensate for the loss of the human laborers.

For example, if blueberries "have to" be picked by humans because only a human can choose the ones that are ripe, we will soon see robotic blueberry-picking machines dumping the berries into chemical vats to be "artificially ripened."

[MellowDem]

107. Interesting prediction

You may be right for some industries, way in the future, but not for all industries. But even then, you are creating highly paid, human capital intensive labor, because you need someone to design those machines and make them, not to mention maintain them. And Machines are expensive to run, humans will always be the best and least expensive way to do a lot of unskilled labor, even with that labor being paid good wages and getting good benefits.

[iamthebandfanman]

102. id hardly call a factory job

a job other americans dont want or need.

but your right, the problem isnt with people who are searching for a better life... its the low down dirty employer trying to be greedy and underpay its workers.

[psychopomp]

118. I find it hard to believe that Americans will not do those jobs

especially with the belt tightening that has been going on for the last few years.

Illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be remedied, starting with the employers in the industries that hire undocumented workers.

[ingac70]

Same way they did it to drag us out of the Great Depression...

smack the rich.

[Festivito]

12. Think bigger. Dems=more jobs, more jobs=a need for workers.

Suddenly, you'll want, you'll be asking for workers from other countries to come work for us.

The problem is that Republicans own businesses, and businesses like cheap labor. By cutting jobs, we become cheap labor. By allowing other nationals to work here when Republicans have already reduced jobs, further lowers our wages and increases their profit.

That's why Republicans won't go after an "illegal employer" problem.

The real problem is that our nation can only pull this job reduction scheme so long. Then, all comes crashing down around us.

Welcome to "disaster capitalism."

[GoddessOfGuinness]

15. Why do some jobs have to be done by illegals?

That's like saying "We have to have some slaves".

[bjb]

25. I too differ with my party on this issue

I am with you 100% Michigan man.

[joeglow3]

46. This is the reason my parent's left the Democratic party

I am still fighting with them over this. My father is a union drywaller (the number 2 employer of illegals) and has seen nothing but layoffs and pay cuts the last 20 years as illegals work the job he apparently doesn't want to work. Iowa showed us that there are PLENTY of LEGAL Americans willing to move to fill these jobs.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wvbygod]

4. That sucks

After all the effort the workers made to come here, learn our language, study for the
entrance exam, pay their taxes, auto insurance and all the other fees and input that it takes
to help our society move forward the ICE jackboots barge in and disrupt it.

Either greet the poor, the hungry, the yearning to be free or stop advertising it as America.

[Michigan Soldier]

7. We must disagree

I agree that we must go after the employer. But as a union man, we let only as many of the helpless as we can absorb safely without putting Americans out of work. The solution is to fine or imprison employers who hire illegals. Deport lawbreakers once and enforce the laws already on the books which means jail for repeated violators. Stand up for the middle class American workers who pay the taxes and fill the banks of the DNC. Enact fair trade so only countries playing by the rules will get free trade and the others pay equal tariffs.

But to say that we are open to all coming in at will is disaster waiting to happen.

[martymar64]

77. Re: that last line

That's what my ancestors here were saying about the Irish and the Italians and the Jews back in the 1800's, taking up the jobs and breeding like rats. We've been here since 1632. What about your family?

[MellowDem]

82. Bad analogy

For one, they came legally. If this were a post about legal immigrants taking jobs, you might have a point.

Two, most of the immigration you are talking about, the Irish, the Italians, etc., was happening at the time of the Industrial Revolution, when the US was like China is now, except without a billion people to fuel its economic growth. To compare immigration and the economy back then to now is laughable at best, horribly misconceived at worst. If you think that our immigration policy will never change, you must also think that the Earth has unlimited resources, not to mention the US.

Third, remember why the US encouraged huge amounts of legal immigration in the first place, despite most Americans being xenophobic and not wanting it. It was for one reason and one reason only, just like today with illegal immigration: Corporations want the cheap labor. Period. That's it. No yearning mass trollop, that's the real reason.

Think for one minute, if you will, on why BUSH is all for keeping the status quo when it comes to illegal immigration, that is, looking the other way. THINK about it. You shouldn't have to for too long. Then reconsider your position. Sure, there are right-wing racists and xenophobes who are opposed to immigration. But, that doesn't mean you can't be opposed to illegal immigration for reasons relating to labor rights and good working conditions. I honestly cannot see ONE reason why any Democrat would not be opposed to illegal immigration. I can think of MANY reasons Bush and his corporate thugs are all for it.

[downindixie]

8. None of the illegals here in Alabama

speak English if they know it,hell I was raised here an I barely speak it.They don't buy car insurance.They rent,but don't take care of the property.The house across the street from my house was occupied by at least 9 illegals for over a year.When they finally moved out the owners had to rip out the floors and sheetrock.They had to completly remodel.The illegals parked their cars in the yard and washed them partically every day eroding the yard.Then they played their Mexican music from their cars very loudly late into the night.When we complained to the police,they would stop the loud music,pick up their beer cans,but would be out the next night doing the same thing.Their employers,home builders,pay them out of pocket,so they don't pay taxes.I don't mind legal immigration at all and enjoy all that try to take a place in our community.

[Ian David]

5. Would have been cheaper and easier just to arrest the one guy who hired them all. n/t

[Thothmes]

11. Then what do we do with the 600 undocumented workers

[Festivito]

13. Gee. With no job, they'd have to go home! /nt

[Thothmes]

21. Maybe Not

This is a very large country. Unless they are rounded up and shipped out, they will move on to find other jobs. I think the problem can only be solved with the following. 1. The employer goes to jail. Whether it is Frank Perdu employing thousands or Lani Guinier employing one. No deals, jail time for hiring those that are in the country illegally. 2. Deport the illegal employees immediately. 3. Amend the Consitution to require one parent to be an american citizen (native born or natuallezed) to gain citizenship by birth. These are my opinions.

[Ian David]

19. I have absolutely no idea. n/t

[struggle4progress]

9. In Sept 07, Carpenters Industrial Council finally won a contract with Howard Industries in MS

I'd guess the issue here is union busting: either using underage kids the union won't organize or deporting immigrants the union was successfully organizing

[amandabeech]

18. I don't understand you point.

Are you saying the native born and legal residents working in this factory were anti-union and that undocumented were pro-union?

So the company or one of the anti-union employees called ICE to report the illegals, risking huge fines and disruption of production, in order to kick the union out of the plant?

Surely, you must have a different line of reasoning than that.

[struggle4progress]

29. An injury t'one's an injury t'all, y'know? In th'past, th'bosses bought slaves: t'day they rents.

Th'Mississippi bosses know solidarity works: so Mississippi has "right t'work" laws t'keep workers from organizin

Here's what happens when y'win an organizin fight in Mississippi: th'bosses pack th'place with mo'easily-manipulated folk: children or folk instantly deportable at public expense

This story is about exploitin labor

An injury t'one's an injury t'all, y'know?

[amandabeech]

35. I spent several years as a union-side labor lawyer. I have my creds.

Your post is insulting and if that is the way you answer legitimate questions, you won't pick up supporters.

Just some advice from your lawyer.

[struggle4progress]

41. You are insulted by the old Wobblie slogan "An injury to one is an injury to all"?

Or you are insulted by my reference to Murrow's grim and famous criticism in his 1960 Harvest of Shame: "We used to own our slaves but now we just rent them?"

Or you are insulted because someone points out that Mississippi's "right-to-work" laws are intended to divide-and-conquer workers and obstruct union organizing?

Or you are insulted because I noticed that Federal immigration raids function as part of an American apartheid system, a modern Juan Crow apparatus that creates an underclass of easily exploitable workers who are hired without much risk by the employer, are "kept in their place" by the local Klan and other such racist trash, and are deported at public expense when the employer decides they have become inconvenient?

Or perhaps you're just sore cuz I showed little interest in your misrepresentations of my previous post?

Whatever it may be ... An injury to one is an injury to all

[joeglow3]

50. My father is a solid union drywaller

He has worked for about 5 companies in his career, changing companies each time his went non-union. The reason they went non-union is because they could get illegals MUCH cheaper. Sorry, but illegals are NOTHING BUT a hinderance to unions a decent wages.

[struggle4progress]

75. Sounds like your father's real problem is: exploitative union-busting companies.

You can work towards a more worker-and-union-friendly legal environment, or you can spend your energy attacking people who risked their lives to come here because their families were starving. If you choose the second option, the only real effect will be to drive wages here down further

[amandabeech]

53. I am insulted by the pidgin English.

Your post was not clear to me and that is all.

[struggle4progress]

74. You're complaining about pretty standard English with some convenient and obvious abbreviations

It unpacks easily. For example,

"An injury t'one's an injury t'all, y'know?" == An injury to one is an injury to all, you know?

Consider not using the word pidgin further until you really understand what it means

[Cobalt Violet]

10. Filling detention centers.

That's what this is about. Someone is making good money filling the beds.

[Karenina]

16. Bingo!

Jena. What a lovely town...

[martymar64]

78. Just watch, those "detention centers" will start installing crematoria

Of course, our Michigan friend won't have a problem with that. The bodies of the gassed immigrants will make great fuel for the furnaces.

[MellowDem]

84. You, my friend, are as misguided and wholly fooled on this issue as can be

Bush* and his corporate pals have got you hook, line and sinker. They wish every American thought of illegal immigration the way you do.


This is what you are buying:


Yea for illegal immigration exploitation and American workers being laid off!

Yea for Corporations ignoring labor standards!

Time to present the boogeyman of racism! Bad, bad Americans for not liking illegal immigration, you racist hypocrites!! BAAAAD

Sincerely,

The Right-Wing Establishment

[martymar64]

91. Then what are YOU going to do about it then?

If you offer no real solutions, then all this hand wringing about the "illegals" is just talk. You either fix the conditions that cause the immigration (completely repeal NAFTA and stop dumping US agricultural products on foreign markets which put poor farmers in MX out of worker, forcing them to migrate or starve) or take forceful action against the bosses and CEO's that use them as pawns to play against American workers, maybe kidnap or kill a few fat cats that run these companies.

All you xenophobes want to do is deport, deport, deport. But they'll keep coming back unless you address the root of the problem, which lies with the capitalists pigs that desire slave labor. Unless you, MellowDem, are willing to take action, then you're just all talk and no action. If you feel so strongly about getting rid of "the illegals", then you should go personally tell the next immigrant you see to get the hell out, and maybe shoot one or two of them for emphasis or burn there house down, and make you get their kids too, nits make lice. Of course, the law may look down on you killing people, but hey, there only "illegals", maybe a sympathetic judge will let you off with no punishment, like they used to do in the Jim Crow South.

Of course, maybe you're just satisfied bitching about it and doing nothing.

[DS1]

103. Thanks for these two posts

I can put you on ignore now, gas boy

[MellowDem]

108. Your argument sucks ass

I'm a xenophobe? Who the fuck are you to say that? You're the worst kind of debater. I offer good points about why many people are opposed to illegal immigration BESIDES racism, and the best you can do is accuse me of being a xenophobe. You're a real piece of work, telling ME to address the root of the problem while all YOU do is ignore the problem and accuse anyone who debates the pros and cons of the immigration issue a racist, even comparing it to the Holocaust.

The action I want to take is electing those to Congress and the Presidency willing to create a sane border policy and labor laws that deal harshly with employers who use illegal immigrants to up their profits while breaking labor laws.

In reality though, to me personally, this is not a huge issue. Neither is it to most Americans. Illegal immigration only effects a small segment of the work force in a negative way. Still, I like to try to stand up for labor everywhere.

And like I said elsewhere, repealing NAFTA won't stop the flow of illegal immigration. As long as there is more opportunity here than elsewhere people will come.

Sorry for the harsh language, I hate using it, but it's the only way to address bullies like you.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

14. What about the people who hired them?

They get off scot-free?

[bicentennial_baby]

20. This thread is...illuminating

:puke:

[hedgehog]

24. Any situation that pits people on a low rung of the ladder against

people on a lower rung is full of gray areas. It's hard not be be sympathetic to people who literally walk across a desert to get a job here, but at the same time, what about the people who grew up here and who can't find a decent job because the wages are being undercut? An employer may even be paying a legal minimum wage and all withholding taxes, but that doesn't help the guy who used to get $12/hr for doing the same job.

[RamboLiberal]

27. More on the story - Union Workers at plant gave the tip

The largest single-workplace immigration raid in U.S. history has caused panic among Hispanic families in this small southern Mississippi town, where federal agents rounded up nearly 600 plant workers suspected of being in the country illegally.

One worker caught in Monday's sweep at the Howard Industries transformer plant said fellow workers applauded as immigrants were taken into custody. Federal officials said a tip from a union member prompted them to start investigating several years ago.

Fabiola Pena, 21, cradled her 2-year-old daughter as she described a chaotic scene at the plant as the raid began, followed by clapping.

"I was crying the whole time. I didn't know what to do," Pena said. "We didn't know what was happening because everyone started running. Some people thought it was a bomb but then we figured out it was immigration."

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=5655470&page=1

[AlphaCentauri]

30. "a tip from a union member prompted them to start investigating several years ago"

I though unions were pro workers not for police state

[pegleg]

31. Pro- American jobs. Those jobs should be filled by Americans

[AlphaCentauri]

33. I don't see that happening

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/09/AR2008080901332.html

[DainBramaged]

45. Of course you don't, keep the illegals coming

:eyes:

[Name removed]

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[EFerrari]

47. Interesting -- this morning a union organizer told Amy

that this site was selected because there was beginning to be too much bonding between black and Latino workers. I wasn't listening very carefully but the transcript is up at her site. That's crazy.

[AlphaCentauri]

52. what could we expect in a republican district? more latinos and blacks = more democratic votes

[Omaha Steve]

81. Miss is a right to work state

The tip was on NON union workers.

The right to work map.

[entanglement]

32. The system is designed to maximize profits for the bosses, have a permanently marginalized

and exploited underclass (the intent of these raids is to show immigrant workers who's the boss and reinforce their subordinate status) and pay American workers the psychological wage of "Woohoo the beaners got kicked out!" instead of real improvements in working conditions, pay and benefits for everyone. As surely as night follows day, the employers will get off lightly, and another (even more desperate?) group of workers will take these positions while right wing bigots wallow in xenophobic self-congratulation at what they consider a "win". :puke:

[jody]

37. "decent wage was paid"? If customers paid a decent price then businesses could pay a decent wage. nt

[Michigan Soldier]

62. No matter the price, businesses will pay the lowest wage if illegals are here to work.

Think about it. Greedy corporations will always set the highest price they can get away with while paying the lowest wage possible before high turnover sets in. Businesses are here to make a profit. That is the free market. As long as there are illegal immigrants, we will get low wages.

[jody]

86. So take illegals out of the equation and one is still left with customers who want cheap products &

services at prices so low that laborers are not paid a decent wage by U.S. standards.

The result is products produced by workers in other countries and services produced by illegal aliens in the U.S.

One obvious answer is for customers to pay a price for products/services that would support decent wages for U.S. citizens.

I wonder how many DUers would do that? :shrug:

[JVS]

90. Just like oilworkers have experienced a huge increase in wages in the last few years?

[jody]

93. Do you mean US oil workers are not receiving a decent wage? If so please provide a source to support

your allegation.

[JVS]

94. You provide a link that establishes a connection between price paid for a good and higher wages..

the producer. There is no way to prove the decency or indecency of a wage, as that's subjective.

[jody]

96. Please read any basic economics book and you will find that labor is a cost of doing business.

Book keeping 101 will show you that price - cost = profit.

You will find either:

Low price = profit + low wages

OR

Higher price = profit + higher wages

Whether one or the other occurs is a function of market forces helped or hindered by government policies but it is a fact that low price is almost always accompanied by low wages.

You might not like it but that's just the way things are. :shrug:

[JVS]

97. It does not follow that higher prices paid for a good imply higher wages.

If so, we would see increases in wages for all the producers of goods which have become more expensive recently.

[jody]

98. I did not say that. I said "Whether one or the other occurs is a function of market forces helped or

hindered by government policies but it is a fact that low price is almost always accompanied by low wages."

[JVS]

99. You said "If customers paid a decent price then businesses could pay a decent wage"

While this is theoretically possible, it often doesn't happen. Your equations don't really help an analysis of whether this will happen or not because they treat price as a function of cost (actually in this particular case: wages) and profit, while ignoring the fact that price is not determined by these factors. Both price and wage are determined by different markets. In both cases it is a market in which the capitalist participates (in the market establishing the price he contends with consumers, in that which determines wage he contends with workers) Because these are two different markets is why we see such lovely things as tennis shoes and diamonds sold at relatively high prices to consumers, yet produced by people who are barely paid at all.

[jody]

100. IMO we need to set down over coffee and discuss this issue. I suspect I agree with you but

something is getting lost in my posts.

I was trying to make the point that customers must pay higher prices for products or services if workers are to receive higher wages.

Whether higher prices produce higher wages or not is a function of market forces and government policies but higher wages without higher prices in industries like that cited in the OP is unlikely without government subsidies.

[lancer78]

83. Watch Out!

When the immigrants left my town, the unemployment rate went from 5.9 % to 8.8 %.

[MellowDem]

85. And the businesses had to raise their wages to fill the jobs

The horror!!

Of course, in the short-term it will have a negative effect on your town, but in the long run, I'd rather not have an underclass being exploited in my town in order to keep the unemployment rate lower as well as wages and labor standards, but maybe that's just me.

[lancer78]

87. Actually

The unemployment increased because of the loss of $10 million yearly sale revenue that the immigrants spent in the town. Without that revenue, the service sector had to cut jobs.

[pampango]

92. Shhh. You make it sound like immigrants are good for the local economy. Few here want to hear that.

I believe the idea is that when illegal immigrants are kicked out, native born Americans are hired at high wages and the local economy booms. ;)

I suggest that you get with the "immigrants = bad, native born Americans = good" program sponsored not by the racist RW repubs, but by good progressive LW democrats.

[MellowDem]

111. Yeah yeah yeah

I suppose the REAL idea is not to have an economy based on a slave underclass to begin with at all! Hmmm, what does that remind me of. A slave economy that boomed until the slavery was outlawed, then it fell apart, hmmm. If you don't want your economy resting on inhumane labor practices, I think the hit to the local economy is worth it. If you think your local economy is more important than the Democratic ideals of fair labor and decent wages, well then just go over and join GWB in riding off into the sunset.

The economy is more important than labor, where have I heard that before... do you hear yourself?

[pampango]

114. I agree with much of what you say, but...

my point was that, contrary to what many post, illegal workers are not bad for the local economy. You can argue that they are bad for local workers, school, and hospitals and that should, obviously, be part of the discussion, as should their effect on the economy.

There have been illegal workers since there have been laws regulating immigration and employment, through good economic times and bad. The problems that American workers and families have today are not caused by these workers, but by the way that conservatives have changed tax and social policies which has skewed the way that prosperity is shared in our country. Change these important things and illegal immigration will drop way down on the list of issues that we discuss here.

[MellowDem]

115. I agree with you

but even with changed tax and social policies it would still be counterproductive to allow corporations to exploit illegal immigrants and undercut wages. I don't think it's the biggest issue in America right now, by far. It effects only a small part of the American working class. But it seems rather hypocritical that some Democrats are willing to turn a blind eye to something that is counter to Democratic ideals. The worst aspect is that many Democrats in Congress turn a blind eye to it because of identity politics and the demographic vote. To me, that is just sad, but usual, politics.

[High Plains]

117. Why aren't you organizing your working class brothers from Mexico?

Instead of just bitching about them.

Don't like exploited labor? Organize. Do you think undocumented workers don't want higher wages, too?

[MellowDem]

109. Of course

With any loss in population a town experiences the loss in revenue that they would spend there. I'd rather have the people spending in a town getting paid good wages, then they'd be spending 15 or 20 million yearly in your town.

I suppose if labor is not as important as your town's economy, then it is what it is.

[LanternWaste]

101. Tough for me to imagine what additional...

Tough for me to imagine what additional bogey-men the GOP will be forced to think up once they've deported every possible undocumented worker.

Tough for me to imagine what additional bogey-men people will blame a south-of-cheese economy once the undocumented workers are no longer a suitable paper-tiger.


On second though, no.... not really. I have faith that Americans will *always* find someone to blame (other than Americans) for a bad economy, a lay-off, a recession, or getting fired for pissing in the office coffee-pot.

We're really good at saying "it's *their* fault!". Those imaginary red and black lines sure make for some tasty justifications!

[iamthebandfanman]

104. i hate that the immigrants hafta be punished

in this situation.

i hope they really sock it to the company tho. cheap bastard trying to save a few dollars.

i know plenty of people who work in factorys and im currently trying to get hired at one myself... so i know for a fact that a factory doesnt fit into the 'job americans dont want'.

in all honesty thats what this country needs, more factory work... thats whats nearly left us completely and gone overseas... its the main outsourced work...


now harvesting a field is another story all together...

[hunter]

105. We should grant instant citizenship to people caught in raids like this...

... and then send out a hundreds of inspectors to carefully search the workplace for labor violations and fraudulent record keeping. When that's done we could hold a union job fair where these new citizens might join a union of their choice, pick a health plan and generally make the miscreants who thought they'd cheat the system by hiring undocumented workers pay through the nose for their misdeeds.

[toopers]

112. What is a "decent wage"?

Are all jobs, regardless of skill and education requirements, suppose to pay a living wage?

[sofa king]

113. So why isn't it an "illegal manufacturing plant"?

As long as employers are given a slap on the hand, this sort of business will never end.

[Name removed]

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