US to gift Pak 20 T-37 trainer jets

[OhioChick]

Source: Times of India

22 Aug 2008, 0000 hrs IST,PTI

ISLAMABAD: The US has approved the delivery of 20 T-37 refurbished jet trainer aircraft to Pakistan's air force.

The US government is providing the used aircraft free of cost to Pakistan, which will only have to bear the shipment costs.

The delivery of the aircraft was authorised by the US administration. Pakistan's ambassador to the US, Husain Haqqani, has said the Pakistan Air Force had sent a formal request for the aircraft last year. The T-37 twin engine trainer aircraft are from the US air force's inventory and are being refurbished before being supplied to Pakistan.

Earlier this week, the US released $116 million to finance mid-life upgrades for Pakistan's ageing fleet of F-16 fighter jets.


Read more: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/US_to_gift_Pak_20_T-37_trainer_jets/articleshow/3390909.cms

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"Free of Cost?"

[A HERETIC I AM]

1. The big money is in the spare parts. n/t

[Angleae]

8. What spare parts?

They were having trouble getting parts back in the early 90s when I had to work on these things. There were literally things on that aircraft that were no longer made then.

[MercutioATC]

2. You do realize this is the "pansy" jet trainer...it's nickname is the "Tweet".

Yes, it's a jet, but it's not a fighter trainer. It's used for navigation training, night flying training, etc...

[OhioChick]

3. Yep.

Think I can get them "Free of Cost?"

[MercutioATC]

4. My bet is that we just have them sitting around unused....

It's a no-cost way of getting rid of excess inventory while "gifting" another nation.

[The Stranger]

19. If you had the right credentials, you probably could.

The U.S. government appears happy to get them off its hands.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

5. Sure, but...

They can also be outfitted to make passible forward observer and air to mud attack aircraft. Which some undoubtedly will.

[Posteritatis]

6. T-37s? In a modern air environment? It's a step up from Sopwith Camels, but that's about it. (nt)

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

7. Yeah, but on BSU missions over the tribal areas...

Well, they would work. Somewhat. And that ain't no modern air environment. At least until the man-portable SAMs become readily available.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

9. Dude, Pakistan has F-16s and Mirages

They don't need ancient aircraft to bomb the tribal areas.

[sofa king]

10. Actually, they might.

The F-16s and Mirages serve a more strategic role in that they can actually fight other aircraft, so that's likely what they'll be doing in the event of a war--with India, of course, since that's the only war for which they're really planning.

But if you commit all of your fighter-bombers to the fighter role, it's nice to have some cheap shitboxes which can trundle over some dumb bombs while the real planes control the skies. And even if you don't do that, it's still useful as a cheap and completely expendable first-flight training aircraft.

There have been several fine examples of obsolete aircraft finding a niche in or outside of the American arsenal, one of the most notable being the P-39 Airacobra. It couldn't fight its way out of a paper bag despite the "P" for "pursuit," but they had a big-ass Oldsmobile cannon in the nose which the Russians loved to use for ground attacks.

[Massacure]

12. The P-39 wasn't really used for ground attacks by the Russians.

At least not according to your wikipedia link.

The Soviets supplied their P-39s with only high explosive (HE) cannon ammunition as the aircraft was used extensively for air-to-air combat against a variety of German aircraft, including Bf 109s, Fw 190s, Ju 87s, and Ju 88s. No armor-piercing (AP) rounds were issued, putting the lie to a common misconception that the Airacobra served Soviet "tank-busting" duties.

[sofa king]

21. Oops, I stand corrected.

Thanks for the catch, Massacure.

Rather than try to cover my tracks, I'll just mention that in another guise, the Cessna A-37B was used as a ground attack aircraft by the South Vietnamese, and subsequently Communist Vietnam after a large number of them were captured. They were, however, heavily modified from the trainer model and some might consider it unwise to compare these trainers to those aircraft.

But modifications do happen, as we have recently seen with the Iranian "Lightning," which is a heavily modified F-5, which in turn was the parent model of the T-38.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

13. They've got plenty of old Chinese aircraft, too.

Sometimes a trainer is just a trainer.

[MercutioATC]

11. They'd have to add hardpoints and upgrade the avionics.

Not impossible, but there are no off-the-shelf parts for the hardpoints.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

18. Man, that's Pakistan

That's where guys with primative blacksmith tools not only can build you exact replicas of any firearm known to man, but build some with design modifications that fix the flaws inherent in the original design. Hardpoints should be a piece of piss for them.

[Xithras]

32. Pakistan is a nuclear power.

If they can figure out SRBM's and fission warheads, I'm sure that adding rails to a trainer is no big deal.

The biggest problems would be the introduction of a guidance system. It's easy to add hard points and drop dumb bombs from an aircraft not designed to do so. Adding in anything even remotely resembling todays modern guided weaponry is another thing entirely. Functionally, it would be the equivalent of a WWII German Blitz bomber.

[bdab1973]

33. These airplanes will probably never see combat...

"The biggest problems would be the introduction of a guidance system."

No, the biggest problems would include adding new wings and engines to carry a payload. Those wings on a standard T-37 weren't designed to carry a load other than normal aerodynamic forces. The A-37 had structurally strengthened wings and J85 engines. J85s burn way more fuel than the J69s, so you'd have to find a way to add more fuel tanks so you can fly for longer than 45 minutes.

Adding a targeting system of some kind would actually be the easier part because it wouldn't involve redesigning major structural components.

Sorry, but these Tweets will only train people for combat, not actually be in combat. If the Paks decide to use them in combat, then good luck...hope the wings don't develop cracks and hopefully you can find use for an airplane that's underpowered even without several thousand pounds of ordinance strapped to it.

[trof]

14. First airplane I ever flew. Back in '63. Basic USAF trainer.

Being replaced by:

T-6A Texan II
RANDOLPH AIR FORCE BASE, Texas -- The T-6A Texan II is a single-engine, two-seat primary trainer designed to train Joint Primary Pilot Training, or JPPT, students in basic flying skills common to U.S. Air Force and Navy pilots. The trainer is phasing out the aging T-37 fleet throughout Air Education and Training Command.

[CRF450]

27. Didn't they use T-34's too?

Those are cool planes!

[Algorem]

15. Mmmmm.Money.I gotta get into the kill business.

yummy yummy money.

[trof]

16. The A-37 is the attack version

This aircraft was brought into service in a rush by the USAF during the Viet Nam war. It was the only aircraft to undergo operational testing in actual combat (Combat Dragon).

Nicknamed "The Dragonfly" the aircraft nobly served the United States Air Force, Republic of Viet Nam Air Force, US Air Force Guard and Reserve units, and several Air Forces of Central and South America. Its reliability, agility, and accuracy made it the perfect close air support aircraft for low intensity conflict. It served those who were involved with her very well and we still admire and respect her.
http://www.a-37.org/a37.htm

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

22. no relation

The T-38 is based on the Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter, the A-37 is unrelated and was made by Cessna.

[trof]

23. Who said anything about the T-38? I flew both, BTW.

[okieinpain]

17. hey looks like fun to me, wish someone would gift me one of those

[JCMach1]

20. These will never make it to the Pakistan Air Force...

Corruption is that bad.

[ohio2007]

24. They could have been used as artificial reefs after being shot down as drone targets

They would have been scrapped.But the donation may keep Pakistan away from buying old Russian scrap

[onager]

25. Old stuff I see here in Egypt frequently...

MIG-21: no, that's not a typo. That's MIG TWENTY-ONE. Still in service, along with the Mirage. And of course, the F-16. Which is also used by their neighbors to the east.

M-60A1 tanks: the US "gifted" Egypt with over 700 M-60A1's, shortly before the first Gulf War, IIRC. The U.S. dumped a bunch of other M-60's into the Atlantic to create an artificial reef.

Egypt is STILL using those M-60's. Ironically, I often see them rolling down the highway on flatbed transporters, right alongside their former nemesis in the Warsaw Pact...

T-55 tanks: Egypt seems to have a bunch of these old warhorses still hanging around. Some years ago, Egypt said it was letting a contract for major upgrades to its T-55 fleet, including engines, fire control, main guns, etc. European military contractors were salivating over that contract. But eventually, according to a post by a French engineer somewhere on the Internets, they figured out the Egyptians were just yanking their cranks and wanted a lot of free trips to Paris, London and Frankfurt. The big contract never materialized, AFAIK.

MI-8 helicopters.

SA-2 missiles: yep, the original "flying telephone pole" SAM from the Vietnam era.

ZSU-23 "Shilka" tracked anti-aircraft gun system and SA-6 tracked AA missile system: well, they're old and Russian, but at least they went operational. Which is more than we can say for their U.S. counterpart, the infamous M-247 Sgt. York. That turkey was cancelled after the contractors got caught faking test results.

[tabasco]

26. Yeah! Let's give jets to an unstable Muslim country with nuclear bombs!

BRILLIANT!

[davepc]

28. OMG THEIR NOT NUCKULAR BOMBARS!!!!!!

:nuke:

[tabasco]

30. Either were the planes that attacked NYC.

Do you support giving jets to an unstable Muslim country with nuclear weapons?

[eringer]

29. How about we offer them a "loaded" B-52 for Osama Bin Laden's Cold Dead Butt!

[bdab1973]

31. Look people, educate yourself before assuming...

The T-37s are mostly retired from the USAF inventory, most of these airplanes were bought and paid for over 50 years ago...I know because I flew them at Laughlin AFB 8 years ago, just before they retired them and converted to the new T-6 trainer. Most of the airplanes I flew were made between 1956-1959...they are old and there's really no money in it for the US military.

As for giving such aircraft to Pakistan, it's not a threat. The T-37s are powered by two J69 turbojets, and they are gutless at best. I can remember many times realizing I was about to make a bad landing, and trying to go around...and shoving the throttles full forward and waiting, waiting, waiting for the power to kick in. When it finally did, the airplane would accelerate fairly slowly. The Learjet I flew after training had more power than the T-37 did.

And it's not a simple task of converting a T-37 into an A-37. Same basic airframe, but VERY different aircraft. The A-37 had more powerful J85 engines, structurally strengthened wings and hardpoints to carry weapons, and larger wingtip tanks to carry more fuel for the thirstier engines. Essentially, you really can't convert a T-37 into an A-37 without essentially rebuilding the airplane.

This is really nothing more than giving an "ally" some old retired training airplanes that we'll never use (and likely scrap if not given away).