Alabama to charge fat workers extra cash

[AlphaCentauri]

Source: MSN

The state has given its 37,527 employees a year to start getting fit - or they'll pay $US25 ($A28) a month for insurance that otherwise is free.

Alabama will be the first US state to impose a surcharge on overweight state workers who do not work on slimming down. A handful of other states reward employees who adopt healthy behaviours.

Alabama already charges workers who smoke - and has seen some success in getting them to quit - but now has turned its attention to a problem that plagues many in the US South: obesity.

The State Employees' Insurance Board this week approved a plan to charge state workers starting in January 2010 if they don't have free health screenings.



Read more: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=619057

---

Another call for Universal health care

[sparkswillfly00]

1. Hahaha Great! n/t

[Systematic Chaos]

4. Explain "Great!", please....

:shrug:

[liberalmike27]

255. How About

Eating too much meat.

Engaging in risky behavior, like going out on a boat fishing, you could drown, or be injured. Hunting, you could be shot.

Smoking, of course, should be charged.

Bad eating habits in general.

Being single and going out every night to the bar to score, might catch somthing that requires a prescription for life; might be beaten up; might drink too much, too regularly.

Insurance, as it is set up in our country is just another business that rich people put together to screw all of us, and bleed us for more money from something we should be providing as a society anyway. We should be able to go to the hospital, get treatment if we really need it, and the hospital should be paid a price that is monitored by the government, as in Japan.

I know a lot of people who fight against health care just don't see that we are spending more than we would in a controlled system, in which we get good treatment, and doctors still make a ton of money.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

180. Yeah, because all of us who are fat are overeaters.

:eyes:I have a thyroid problem and I really don't eat terribly. Quit being a jerk.
Duckie

[Divine Discontent]

231. why must 90% of the smart-alec comments come from people with under 50 posts?

oh, we know why!

and ps - I know many people who have THYROID problems and it makes them larger, and they cannot help it, even with medication, but a good portion of skinny people who don't have problems fail to use their brain to realize medical conditions can cause major weight gain.


MORE AT - www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

2. Is that overweight or obese?

The article really doesn't say. One can be slightly overweight and still be healthy.Obesity's another matter.

I'm speaking as a guy who's fought the battle of the bulge for most of his adult life. My BMI (body mass index)classifies me as slightly overweight though I'm 80 lbs lighter than I was at my peak.

[Thor_MN]

250. Body Mass Index is a joke. An attempt to simplify a scale that fails miserably.

It tries to assume that people are two dimensional, that they have height and weight. There is no attempt to account for frame size (or muscle mass). To the BMI, there is no difference between the barrel chested guy and the beanpole. Many professional athletes are classed as obese by the BMI. The BMI is an oversimplification that should be thrown out with other crap science that been produced over the years.

[demnan]

3. Our great American health system

strikes again.

[Overseas]

188. Diabetes care is a billion dollar business. Ditto heart attacks & cancer -- very profitable.

Now if we can get Americans to pay more for their own ever increasing health insurance costs we'll really be sailing. No one likes fat people, so they're a great target.

Hundreds of snack messages on TV every day, lots of sugary snacks and fiberless chips and breads and fried foods cheaply available, so we get the consumer to gobble up stuff they enjoy.

Their enjoyable snacking pastime will often lead to their becoming medical consumers, so more of our medical corporations can reap the rewards.

[DavidMS]

191. Its not just Diabeties...

Anyone who is obese and needs hospitalization has more expensive needs because things like normal wheelchairs and hospital beds will not fit them.

If someone has a few extra pounds but works out they are doing better than most Americans. If someone is morbidly obese and does somthing as simple as swimming 2-3x weekly they may not lose a significant quantity of weight but will be healthier.

Also, we need to look at qualify of life factors.

Diabetes care is expensive and in some cases preventable. It also leads to a lower quality of life.

Lifestyle diseases (complications from breast implants, management of type-2 diabetes for many patents, etc) should negatively affect GDP numbers because its fixing something that broke because someone messed with / didn't take care of it.

Its no different than a state failing to maintain a bridge and then having to prematurely replace it. Those costs are negative economic activity and the money was effectively misspent.

Much like Bush's FEMA botch of Hurricane Katrina. The monies spent rebuilding are negative economic activity since it was fixing something that broke because (inexpensive) reasonable and prudent steps were not taken to prevent the man-made component of the disaster.

[npk]

5. Prepare for the legal battles to come

Obesity while not considered a true disability by the federal government, as part of a protective class of people, the courts have recently been willing to consider the rights of obese people when it comes to obvious discriminatory practices. This could soon be overturned.

[ChazII]

37. Good post,

I would hope that the courts take a second look.

[LostinVA]

43. They won't win, because they aren't a protected class of people

And insurance isn't a right, al;though it should be. As long as health insurance is a for-profit business, this is how it has to be.

[philosophie_en_rose]

115. It can be a disability, which involves a protected class.

And while insurance isn't a right, disparate treatment could be challenged.

[Bandit]

48. Health insurance is not a "right"

Companies do not have to offer it to their employees and it most certainly is not "Free". If Companies did not provide Heath insurance they could pay higher wages and offer products at lower prices. Health Insurance are going up and up and up and it is the Insurerers that are saying risky behavior requires higher rates. Companies are only trying to survive. It is a Global Market where every single country we compete with provides health care for their citizens so their companies don't have to foot that bill.It is no wonder we are being pummeled in the world market. This might be just the sort of thing that brings about Nationalized Health Care more quickly.

[raccoon]

50. Do you really think so?

" If Companies did not provide Heath insurance they could pay higher wages and offer products at lower prices."

:rofl:


They COULD. Whether they WOULD is another matter entirely.

[marshall]

56. Don't people get cheaper insurance for not smoking?

Would the next stop on the slippery slope be having smokers declared a protected group with an addictive disabling dependency on nicotine?

[ChoralScholar]

132. To me, that's in the same vein

as "If we give companies tax cuts, they'll lower prices and raise wages to stimulate the economy"

That's not true either, by the way, thank you President Reagan.

[Connonym]

52. No, insurance is a scam

adequate access to affordable (or free as the case may be) health care IS a human right.

[Taverner]

63. Let's just say I were to charge, say, African Americans $25 more

Just because they were black?

[Codeine]

78. The Constitution provides protection

from discrimination based on race. This would be patently illegal. OTOH, there is no protected status for being a fatbody. Obesity is - in the VAST majority of cases - a decision, a choice made by person in question. A proper diet and vigorous healthy exercise will prevent this from happening in all but the very rarest of circumstances.

[blueraven95]

98. those circumstances are not as rare as a lot of people think

Besides the different syndromes that cause weight gain, there are also allergic reactions - including reactions to mold, which is hard to effectively stay away from, and even side effects to medicines that people take for other illnesses, and often times they are undiagnosed. Trust me, I know. It took ten years before I was diagnosed, and that's only because I happened to read a magazine article about a syndrome, I recognized myself in the symptoms, and I started asking questions. The vast majority of doctors I talk to have little to no clue about this syndrome - and it is not that uncommon in women. In my opinion, just about anything from medical disorders to an addiction to food (which is an eating disorder) falls under needing at least some medical advice and care, and should not be penalized.

For the record, I find this action heinous, because it will prevent people who could get help from being able to get that help. It is yet another hit for heavier people, who have enough problems with both their own self-esteem and getting other people to take them seriously (especially in the medical field). There may be people who choose to become and stay fat, but I've never met any of them. Everyone I know who is overweight is trying to lose that weight, more or less successfully.

[Codeine]

100. An allergic reaction

will not make you fat. Eating more food than you can burn will make you fat. Such reactions CAN impact your ability to metabolize as efficiently as you were able to before. If you can't metabolize as much food as your average person that doesn't mean you have to gain, it means you need to eat less.

[blueraven95]

101. well, I'm glad you think you know all the answers

:hi:

[qwlauren35]

254. Somehow, I think there's a Catch-22 here.

I've had medicines which slowed my metabolism, and yes, I had to eat less. I'm trying to remember if my appetite also increased.

I think you don't realize how awful it would be for someone to cut down to 1200 or 1000 calories a day because of a metabolism dysfunction, if they ALSO had a thyroid problem that caused the body to not feel full.

Frankly, I can't imagine it. I dieted on 1400 calories a day for 4 months this past spring. It took weeks for my body to adjust to the shock. Most of the time, I was hungry. The body does NOT like being hungry.

I sense that you cannot understand what it's like to have your body chemistry work against you on two levels, lowering your metabolism, AND causing you to feel hungry.

I understand the theory behind what you are saying, but the level of challenge for people with medical problems doesn't seem to be something you're able to respect.

Please do some research on the issues of thyroid imbalance and obesity.

[Zhade]

135. That's the stupidest fucking thing I've heard today. No one chooses to be fat.

Some people are genetically prone to being heavy.

You are quite condescending.

[Codeine]

141. Every time you eat more than you burn

you've made a decision, conscious or otherwise, to gain weight. People who are prone to heaviness are faced with the choice of eating less than those who are not, just as a pale person is forced to enjoy less sun or accept increased risk of skin cancer.

[melody]

162. So we are going to fine people for genetic problems?

Are we going to fine people prone to diabetes or arthritis?

This is nothing but bigotry against fat people.

[Spouting Horn]

192. Do they carry a higher risk classification?

The overweight do.

Why should healthy people at a normal weight pay extra to carry the unhealthy obese?

If we're all to share the costs, then the responsibilities should be shared too, right?

[KamaAina]

119. This is not a company. This is the State of Alabama.

This is what happens when pols bloviate about "running the state like a business". :eyes:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

181. This isn't a company that is doing this...

It is the state who gives free health care to their employees.
Duckie

[ChazII]

189. And the state would be ????

Yes, a rhetorical question.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

205. I'm amazed at how much sense that didn't make.

Good Job.
Duckie

[Taverner]

62. Yes - this is discrimination pure and simple

[RamboLiberal]

6. Alabama workers to pay for extra pounds

Source: MSNBC/AP

MONTGOMERY, Ala. - Alabama, pushed to third in national obesity rankings by deep-fried Southern favorites, is cracking down on state workers who are too fat.

The state has given its 37,527 employees a year to start getting fit — or they’ll pay $25 a month for insurance that otherwise is free.

Alabama will be the first state to charge overweight state workers who don’t work on slimming down, while a handful of other states reward employees who adopt healthy behaviors.

Alabama already charges workers who smoke — and has seen some success in getting them to quit — but now has turned its attention to a problem that plagues many in the Deep South: obesity

-----

If the screenings turn up serious problems with blood pressure, cholesterol, glucose or obesity, employees will have a year to see a doctor at no cost, enroll in a wellness program, or take steps on their own to improve their health. If they show progress in a follow-up screening, they won’t be charged. But if they don’t, they must pay starting in January 2011.


Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26337794/

[sparkswillfly00]

7. I think this was already posted.

[Systematic Chaos]

8. Welcome to DU, sparkswillfly00

Yeah, it is common that people will miss posts and end up with a duplicate, but the mods around here are usually very good at spotting that. And lots of other things, too.

:)

[InternalDialogue]

9. .

:thumbsup:

[Systematic Chaos]

10. I really should apply next time they ask for mods.

I was on the site all of 2 minutes this time around before I caught... whatever this is gonna turn into.

[maddezmom]

11. Thanks for the compliment, it is a dupe so I'll combine

And just a fyi, not for you but for some of the newer members...hit alert and give the mods a link then we can combine or whatever much faster. :D

[PufPuf23]

12. Alabama should be first

should the USA start to delete States.

I think we should cede Alabama to Aruba. lol

[snake in the grass]

15. While I like your idea,

I still think it should be Texas first. Or better yet let the entire South secede. Within a generation they will have fucked things up so much that it should be pretty easy to re-assimilate. To be sure, there are many reasons why things are going very wrong in the U.S. but Dixie is one of the major causes.

[The Croquist]

21. Thanks for your support

This Southern boy feels the same way about Yankees.

[Alcibiades]

28. Um, didn't we try that once already?

Didn't work out so good, left the place in ruins, a whole generation dead or wounded, that sort of thing?

[Alcibiades]

27. My vote is for Texas

Give it back to Mexico, let it become its own country, whatever. And I'll throw in Oklahoma, too.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

182. Hey now!

There are some good Oklahomans. Please don't judge all of us by fucking Inhofe!
Duckie

[martymar64]

178. I'm for Cascadian secession (WA,OR)

We as Cascadians are tired of having to support the other slacker states (mostly in the south) with our tax dollars. Plus, culturally the NW has almost nothing in common with the East and the South, except that we have the same flag. I'd rather my capital be a glittering jewel like Seattle or Portland than a malarial swamp like DC. Let the rest of the US fend for itself, we want out.
Hail Cascadia!

[distantearlywarning]

13. I think the US should charge Alabama extra cash

It's a parasite on our nation.

[trof]

39. That's it! No more grits for you!

And keep your damn hands off the fried chicken, too.

[Hulk]

14. Hooray, hooray!!

We are ALL paying for obesity in our country. Medical coverageis probably the big reason. Fly on an airplane next to someone who hangs over their arm rest into your lap....being charged for 3lbs overweight on my bags when some person behind me weighs two and a half times my weight??

I realize it's a serious issue, but take a trip to Eastern Europe. You would be hard pressed to find a person grossly overwieght.

Fly into an American airport, and you feel like you are walking behind a sea of elephant asses. Take a run out to COSTCO and the obesity overwhelms you. It's sad, but I think the steps taken are quite appropriate.

When your ass is bigger than the front end of some American autos....it's time to do something about it.

[bronxiteforever]

20. Eastern Europe? Heavy cigarette smoking keeps you thin

The average per capita cigarette consumption in Hungary is among the highest in the world (World Health Organization .

[WriteDown]

55. You nailed it....

Its the European weight loss secret. I've dined with people in Europe who take a puff of a cigarette and then a bite of their food.

[sunnystarr]

60. Yep .. all those ex-smokers blew up like a balloon lol (nt)

[Codeine]

83. That's hardly the only reason.

Portions are smaller in Europe, and people are much more active in Eastern Europe. As car ownership grows and American-style eating habits become more common you'll see the increasing incident of obesity in this area as well.

[bronxiteforever]

156. American obesity and eastern european smoking habits are two different things

I agree that people are more active in europe, that was not my point-Americans are not active, totally agree.

But the impact of smoking is a pretty big factor. I agree with the below Slate article

"For decades, public-health officials and doctors have been publicizing the dire health consequences of cigarette smoking in an attempt to unhook the American public. Their efforts qualify as the most important public-health initiative of the last century. Yet perversely enough, evidence suggests that the rush to stamp out cigarette smoking has brought health problems along with clean lungs and wide-open arteries. Cigarettes are the best legal drug available for weight control. They're better than fen-phen was, better than Olestra hoped to be, and better than all the appetite suppressants peddled for decades under the table and above it. Ask the professionals who are paid to look underfed—fashion models and ballet dancers—what their secret is. It's unanimous (at least among legal drugs): They light up."

http://www.slate.com/id/2127949/

[Owl]

26. Dang-it Hulk, you're a bit harsh... but I have to agree with you.

I've travelled extensively to Europe and other overseas destinations.

What you've described is, unfortunately for us, quite apt.

[PassingFair]

47. Each of those "elephant asses" has as much (or more) validity as a person as you.

If you are "overwhelmed" by obesity, I
suggest you seek psychiatric help.

Perhaps it's easier to obsess about other people's
weight than it is to face facts about your own narrow,
judgmental ass.

Focus on your personality.

:hi:

[Codeine]

80. Of course they do.

Acknowledging that these people have a dangerous, self-inflicted health problem is not questioning their validity as human beings.

[PassingFair]

153. It's none of your business.

You know smokers, rock climbers, skiers, DRIVERS,
whatEVER.

I think people who jump out of airplanes are
nuts, but I don't think I should tell them
what to do, or deny them healthcare if they
get injured.

[Codeine]

154. And if an insurance provider

wanted to charge a skydiver an extra premium that could hardly be faulted.

[PassingFair]

155. DO they charge skydivers an extra premium?

What about electricians and plumbers, should
they be denied healthcare?

How about runners, the runners I know
have all had to have surgery on their
knees, their hips, or both.

[Codeine]

157. No idea.

But if they did there would be no backlash. Hell, skydiving is probably far safer than being obese.

[Ms. Toad]

251. You might want to do a little research.

I was obese a year ago (BMI=31.5). I also completed a 2-day, 150 mile bike ride (2 days of approximately 6 straight hours of aerobic exercise), my blood pressure was approximately 110/60. My blood sugar was normal. My overall cholesterol was slightly above the target range, but my "good" cholesterol was high, and "bad" cholesterol low so the doctor's assessment was that no action was needed. I take no prescription medications on a regular basis. I take over the counter ibuprofen for occasional headaches, nothing more.

My weight is now in the normal range (BMI=22.5). I just completed the same 2-day, 150 mile bike ride, in roughly the same time as I have every year since approximately 1994, my blood pressure is approximately 110/60. My blood sugar is normal. I haven't had my cholesterol checked recently. I take no prescription medication on a regular basis. I take over the counter ibuprofen for occasional headaches, nothing more.

In other words - by all indications of which I am aware (and by the major predictors of diseases which are sometimes associated with obesity) - I was just as healthy when I was "obese" as I am now when I am "normal" weight. Obesity is not inherently unhealthy.

Oh, BTW, to stay in the "normal" range I have to limit myself to about 1500 calories a day. That isn't much food - and is pretty hard to maintain for the long haul.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

238. They make you sign riders for life insurance.

Saying that you won't do those risky things or that you won't be covered if killed or injured while doing them.

David

[Patchuli]

171. You still cannot lump people in one bag

as you do. There are people who have to fight hereditary tendencies to gain weight easily, people who have injuries that keep them from being able to exercise, medications that cause weight gain and other factors. To break the weight problem in this country down as simply as you did saying that it's just overeating and under-moving is not accurate. One thing that would help the weight problem in this country would be to take the corn syrup out of so many foods. That causes weight gain. Sugar would be less fattening.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

183. You're probably a smoker, too, aren't you?

That's not only self inflicted, but also inflicted on those around you.
I eat about 1800 calories a day, give or take, exercise, and I am still over 200 pounds due to a medical condition. Yeah. It's My fault. :eyes:
Duckie

[Codeine]

240. A smoker? Disgusting. Definitely not. nt

[Missy Vixen]

110. I may be fat

but I can lose the weight, supposedly.

Your attitudes are poisonous. I can only hope I don't ever have to experience the magic that is you IRL.

Julie

[Moloch]

177. Then do it.

How is it a poisonous attitude to wish for a healthier population? Fat people drive up health care costs and harm the environment.. the rest of society shouldn't have to pay because some people are too lazy to better themselves.

I'd like to go one step further and deny food stamp benefits for the overweight or at least limit their purchases to healthy foods. You wouldn't buy booze or cigarettes for these people, so why pay for them to gorge themselves on suzie qs and pork chops?

[Missy Vixen]

202. Hey Damkira,

I'm going to take the deletion, because I'm going to tell you exactly what I thought the moment I read your response.

Fuck you.

I'd bet money my cholesterol, BP and other vitals are lower than yours. I'm not in perfect health, but I don't cost you a DIME more in health care costs, and I never have. I'd love to see your medical records. I'm sure there'd be something in there that's costing ME money. Do you smoke? Use illicit drugs? Drink too much? Have multiple sexual partners and use unsafe sexual practices? I'll find it.

>the rest of society shouldn't have to pay because some people are too lazy to better themselves.<

The rest of society shouldn't have to pay for your smug and supercilious attitudes towards anyone who doesn't fit your personal standard of acceptance, let alone your bigotry.

BTW, you might want to also rethink your choice of avatar. Do you think Barack Obama shares your views? I'll bet he'd be proud.

Julie

[Zhade]

136. As soon as our food stops containing HFCS and a thousand other obesity-generating chemicals...

...you'll have a point.

[high density]

16. So in addition to employers giving piss tests

...Now we're going to get weighed at work? Sounds like so much fun!

[JeanGrey]

44. Oh honey it's only the beginning! Genetic testing will be

next, and if you have genetic pre-disposition towards anything, you're out!!

[BadgerKid]

17. UHC doesn't magically fix things

if I'm taking your comment "Another call for Universal health care" correctly. Alabama is giving workers a financial incentive to slim down. They're making it the employee's responsbility, which is a good thing. It would be a bad thing if they were fired or such for not slimming down.

Are there really that many people thinking "If I had free health screenings and dietary medications, I would do more about my health, but because there's no such animal, I'm going to sit and pout"? I don't buy it. I know people who have insurance now who still choose to ignore their health advice and continue to fuck up their bodies. UHC doesn't fix this.

I hope that UHC would include free health education and screenings for everyone, particularly for those of us who are actually motivated to do something about our health, regardless of there being UHC at all.

[Two Americas]

24. "the problem"

If "the problem" in your view is "how can me make people do what we want them to do?" then no, UHC (universal health care) will not solve that problem. I think APS (authoritarian police state) is what you would need to solve that problem.

[AlphaCentauri]

30. Financial incentives won't make people responsible

UHC would solve many of these problems if it focus on a service to the nation not to the private sector. I'm almost certain that behind the fee to the obese employees in this case are the insurance companies www.alseib.org/HealthInsurance/ . The HC private sector try to suck as much money as they can, they do not see their job serving the people but making money out of them.

[BadgerKid]

146. And what better way than to use stigmas

to target one group at a time. Damn, the in$urance companies are good at financial extrication.

[downindixie]

18. I hope they apply this to the state legislators

All the fat politician need help and I believe the state pays their health insurance.

[Crowman1979]

97. I believe 100% of AL state legislatures fall in this category!

And Nancy Worley would have probably resigned had this been enacted earlier! (an inside joke for all those who follow bama politics :D)

[hedgehog]

19. It would be a great idea except that there really isn't a lot of good

science behind our understanding of the human metabolism. Why can two people sit down, eat the same things, do the same things and one gains weight and another doesn't?

Check out Good Calories, Bad Calories. It's a dense read, but it's eye opening!

[Snarkturian Clone]

22. If they did this in my state I'd start the insurrection.

Anyone who supports this doesn't understand what freedom is.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

23. So nowthere'll be more folks investing in the fad diet industry...

and freaking out over weigh-ins.

Isn't that just grand? :(

[mitchum]

70. People invest in the fad diet industry because they are looking for a magic alternative...

to the simple fact that one must burn more calories than one consumes.
However, it's really hard for hucksters to make a buck off of the truth.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

170. A lot of people will want a fast way to lose 5-10 pounds before the next weigh-in...

I've known people in military bands who do this.

[marias23]

25. Real Bad Precedent and Probably Unconstitutional

First, no one knows the true causes of overweight or what overweight really is. (I am an expert on this.) Think about it - you couldn't do this for height.

Second, and very important: lowered insurance rates is not a good reason because based on this justification you could control all activity. Example: New law says you can't clean your gutters because you could get hurt, have medical bill and raise rates - a slippery slope that was started with the seatbelt laws and should not be extended.

Unconstitutionality is based on an invalid group or status.

[Codeine]

31. There is no constitutional right to private medical insurance

and fat people aren't a protected group.

[Solon]

34. True, but there are many metabolic differences and medical problems...

that can cause some people to become overweight. If someone has a condition that makes it hard to lose weight, then they could have a case for discrimination simply because there are laws in many states that prevent discrimination based on medical conditions, if said condition doesn't preclude them from doing their job.

[alcibiades_mystery]

46. Some people are obese because they eat too much (crap) and don't exercise enough

Every time one of these threads start, we hear about the mysteries of metabolism, and the "innate conditions" that lead to obesity. It's a big scientific mystery. I suspect that this is true for a very small subset of obese people. For the vast majority, it's a matter of diet and exercise, period. It's a matter of extremely poor habits of eating. You can't make policy based on the exceptions. You make policy for populations. Yes, I know this violates the supposedly sacred position of the "individual" in the ideological framework of most Americans, but that's the way it is.

"Maybe we WANT to eat that way! Who are you to...???? FREEEEEEDDDDDDOOOOOMMMMM!"

Nobody's stopping you from eating a certain way. Stuff your face with lard and bacon for all I care. But I don't want to pay for your self-inflicted heart attacks, over and over and over. I think I have a legitimate stake in reducing social and individual costs when it comes to people who *can* modify their self-destructive behavior, but don't *want* to. Needless to say, any hike in health care costs for such people should be supplemented by extensive health education, availability of low-cost healthy foods, and incentives for businesses to modify their own production and marketing practices.

I was in Alabama two years ago (Tuscaloosa), and the volume of extremely obese CHILDREN I saw was disturbing. Giant seven year olds stuffing their faces with ice cream and cookies while their giant parents slurped down 64 oz sodas. It was disgusting. It's fucking child abuse. Of course, I'm a northern arugula-eating urban elitist, so my opinion doesn't count. Miraculously, the "inherent obesity" caused by "metabolic processes" seems to have clustered quite effectively in the areas where poor eating habits dominate, and you almost never see goant obese kids guzzling ice cream for lunch in the community where my family lives. It's a miracle of biology!

Or it's basic sense. Don't feed your kid non-stop saturated fat for eight years, and you won't have a giant obese kid. It's not really that complicated.

[Zuiderelle]

65. Your entire post drips with derision and disgust.

I have a thousand responses but I know they would be met with more derision, so I won't bother. You hate fat people. You're a hateful person. Your post made that very clear.

[alcibiades_mystery]

76. Nice dodge

You seem to want to avoid a very unpleasant fact: most obesity can be prevented. Naming that fact doesn't make me hateful. Ignoring it does make you oblivious.

[JeanGrey]

88. You might want to curb that hatred before it causes you to have

a heart attack.

[alcibiades_mystery]

89. First your little friend accuses me of hatred

Then you build on that accusation with more nonsenses. You do anything, anything, anything but deal with the obvious. Eat better food, and less of it. Exercise more.

It's not that hard.

[Zhade]

137. You're assuming Jean is overweight. Maybe she just doesn't like your condescencion.

NT!

[alcibiades_mystery]

139. I most certainly assumed nothing of the sort

The directive "Eat better food..." etc was not directed at Jean, but a restatement of the general point.

[JeanGrey]

143. Thanks for the advice but I don't need it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

148. Oh jeez...It wasn't advice for you

It was a restatement of the general position that you too easily characterize as HATE.

:eyes:

[Codeine]

75. The only thing wrong with your post

is that you say "some people are obese" when the fact is almost ALL people who are obese simply take more food in that they could possibly ever need. There is no mystery. Fat people get fat because they eat like fat people.

Then they cry about HFCS like it's some mysterious alien force. Jesus fuck. That doesn't explain the growing obesity epidemic in countries that don't use the stuff, does it?

It's a very simple proposition -- gluttony. Greed. The desperate desire to fill emotional and psychological holes with double handfuls of butter smothered in ladles of Ranch dressing and washed down with a two-liter of Pepsi.

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. I try not to make it a moral issue, except where it affects children

I don't believe in "sin." I don't represent it as "greed" or "gluttony." I do, however, disagree with those who try to represent their obesity as out of their control. For the vast, vast, vast majority it just isn't so. Obesity is a result of specific decision-making on food intake and exercise regime.

The problem is that people want to represent those as "freedom." Fine, I'll accept that. But freedom also requires responsibility. What has happened is simple: we miscalculate overall cost for our eating decisions. Overall cost includes long-range costs and ecological costs. It's not just a matter of what food X costs right now. The same goes for exercise. Our focus on objects as distinct commodities leads to this illusion: this double bacon cheeseburger only costs $1.79. No, it doesn't. It costs much more than that. Adding the TRUE cost into health insurance is not "abuse." It is a better reflection of the true cost on one's decision-making with respect to food intake and exercise.

[Stellabella]

190. Wow.

You certainly do have some problems, to spew hate like that.

[Missy Vixen]

203. Welcome to DU, Stellabella

As for the party you responded to, I can only think he gets off on it.

Julie

[LanternWaste]

256. You of course have a link to a peer-reviewed medical journal

"when the fact is almost ALL people who are obese simply take more food in that they could possibly ever need."

You of course have a link to a peer-reviewed medical journal which states as much (I imagine that "almost ALL" is about 95% or higher), yes? Otherwise, it's not so much Fact as it simply is another opinion.

[marias23]

108. It Is That Complicated

I have studied diet for forty years and it is THAT COMPLICATED. Roger Williams, a Noble Prize winner calls it "biological individuality." BTW people need saturated fat. Mothers milk is rich in saturated fat.

[Codeine]

113. Biological Individuality

means that people need to adjust their diets individually. It doesn't mean that some people are capable of violating the laws of thermodynamics; if you eat 2000 calories, and you burn 2000 calories, you simply cannot gain weight.

If you cannot burn that much, then you cannot eat that much. It would be nice if a person who had a slow metabolism could eat like a person who was metabolically faster, but they simply cannot, not unless they want to get fat.

People seem to believe that fat folks are doomed to weight gain and obesity, helpless in the face of some biological equivalent of predestination, but that's just not the case. Actually, they seem to WANT this to be true, so as to absolve themselves from the responsibility to control their own health and disguise their lack of self-control behind obfuscation.

If you eat 2500 calories and gain weight, you need to eat less. Try 2000. If that's too much, then try 1500. And move more! Active, healthy lifestyle choices are essential for more than just weight control -- they are the cornerstone of health and longevity.

Don't get caught up in the learned helplessness of the obesity enablers.

[Ms. Toad]

252. Do you consider eating 2000 calories a day

self-destructive behavior?

When I consume that quantity of calories, I put on about a pound a week. I've been maintaining my weight since May on approximately 1500 calories a day - I had hoped to be able to eat about 2000 calories a day for maintenance, but consuming 500 "extra" calories a day beyond what is currently maintaining my weight will add a pound every 7.2 days.

I don't know whether I'm an exception or not - but that is my reality. I don't like it - and I don't particularly like being called names or described as self-destructive because I have a system that happens to be too efficient to allow me to indulge in anything like a normal diet.

[Freddie Stubbs]

59. Insurance companies can charge higher rates for those with higher risks

If you live in Florida, you will probably pay more for windstorm insurance that someone in Kentucky. You will probably pay more for car insurance if you live in a high crime area where car thefts are more common.

[Codeine]

96. People don't react irrationally to those things

because there is no addiction involved. All of the desperate justifications for obesity are symptoms of a pathological love of eating; not food, but the act of eating itself.

[Alcibiades]

29. I think the culprit is TV

No shocker: people sit in front of the TV and eat, making them physically unfit, so they don't exercise, and spend more time in front of the TV, etc.

If everyone put a treadmill in front of the TV instead of a sofa, the obesity epidemic would shrink.

I do so hope that the good people of Alabama, especially anyone who's fat, Republican and a state employee, take note of how the free market and market-based incentives really work.

[OKthatsIT]

32. Just working for the state of Alabama Govt is enough to...

drive someone to eat.

[Lars39]

33. Doubt they pay enough to be able to eat.

Or at least eat well.

[eridani]

35. Obesity is bullshit as a health indicator

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/health/19well.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1219147459-neZ+5lFcihT63HbCTYOWPA&oref=slogin

But the most striking finding was that fitness level, regardless of body mass index, was the strongest predictor of mortality risk. Those with the lowest level of fitness, as measured on treadmill tests, were four times as likely to die during the 12-year study than those with the highest level of fitness. Even those who had just a minimal level of fitness had half the risk of dying compared with those who were least fit.

During the test, the treadmill moved at a brisk walking pace as the grade increased each minute. In the study, it didn’t take much to qualify as fit. For men, it meant staying on the treadmill at least 8 minutes; for women, 5.5 minutes. The people who fell below those levels, whether fat or thin, were at highest risk.

The results were adjusted to control for age, smoking and underlying heart problems and still showed that fitness, not weight, was most important in predicting mortality risk.

Stephen Blair, a co-author of the study and a professor at the Arnold School of Public Health at the University of South Carolina, said the lesson he took from the study was that instead of focusing only on weight loss, doctors should be talking to all patients about the value of physical activity, regardless of body size.

“Why is it such a stretch of the imagination,” he said, “to consider that someone overweight or obese might actually be healthy and fit?”

[beandoc]

94. That's not quite what that study says.

While the NY times take home on that study may be headline grabbing, it's a bit misleading. It accurately states that some non-obese people have some markers associated with cardiovascular risk/mortality, and some non-obese people do not. What you should not take home from this is the idea that obesity does not contribute to cardiovascular risk, but instead, it is not the only cause of cardiovascular risk.
If you look at the data and accept the markers they use to identify people as metabolically normal or abnormal (increased cardiovascular risk factors), then you'll see that while 26.4 % of normal weight individuals are metabolically normal only 9.7% of obese people are metabolically normal. Also, 8% of normal weight individuals and 20.9% of obese people are metabolically abnormal.
Note that these are measurements of lab values and blood pressure and are not hard endpoints (e.g. heart attack, stroke, death).

The take home is not that obese people are just as healthy as non-obese people. Just that the healthiest of obese people can be healthier than the least healthy non-obese people. But if you are obese, you are more likely to have increased cardiovascular risk.

[happyslug]

111. This is old, it was called the problem of "Fat thin people" many years ago.

"Fat Thin People" are people who are thin do to not eating more then increase exercise (I exclude anorexic women). The big problem is NOT weight but the lack of exercise. People who exercise tend to be healthier and one way to reduce weight. The problem is the lack of exercise more then to much food intact. This report is another report on that same subject, the lack of exercise is the problem. With increase exercise a good bit of obesity will disappear, the big problem is the lack of exercise.

http://www.empowereddoctor.com/doctor_story.php?storyid=1457&id=1548
http://www.protraineronline.com/past/nov02_02/whatyoueat.cfm
http://www.physorg.com/news98034090.html

[eridani]

176. Wrong. The takehome point is that we should be measuring fitness, not weight n/t

[blueatheart]

184. exactly... by using weight as a measurement...

instead of someones fitness it is pure prejudice. What about the really buff and muscular, they weigh more than their suggested weight. Amazing within a group of supposedly progressive people that there is this attitude. Remember Jim Fixx? He was supposedly the health guru in his time, but died a young age from clogged arteries ( I believe was the case).

Let's face it, very often people have health problems because of their lifestyles and unhealthy behaviors. This is not just fat people. Those who are bulimic may have a illness but they are the ones who vomit and cause themselves health problems, should we deny them health care? But, hey, they are not disgustingly fat and we do not mind as a society to look at sickenly skinny people just not fat blobs. Uhm, Just stop eating! Well just stop vomiting! Simple.

[Algorem]

36. We want our Southern culture types ready for war.

We depend on you,Southern culture types,to join up and fight our plutocratic oilwars for us.So shape up and get ready to ship out.



...Let's go to Moscow, let's go to Moscow
Let's go, let's go, let's go to Moscow
Fight a backdoor to the Kremlin
Push it down and walk on in

5000 feet and closing
Target visibility one nine
4000 feet and closing
Target visibility two six
3000 feet and closing
Target visibility seven nine
2000 feet and closing
Visibility one ten
1000 feet and closing
Visibility seven four
500 feet and closing
Target visibility zero!

Ready for war, ready for war
You better be ready for war
Ready for war, ready for war
Are you ready for war
Ready for war, ready for war

[Withywindle]

194. They have nothing more to keep them in a battle than their meager wage

which is just about enough to make 'em wanna kill for you, but not enough to make 'em wanna die for you.


Points for the quote. :thumbsup:


Uh....relevance to the topic. Um. Hey, wasn't John Cale kind of pudgy during the years he was doing a lot of coke? And didn't he slim down when he quit? That's a metabolic oddity for you!

[Vinca]

38. Then I suppose they'll also force hunters to stop hunting because

they might get shot, women to stop wear heels because they might trip and break a leg and anorexics to stop puking because they're TOO THIN. Assholes.

[trof]

40. I'm opening a string of liposuction clinics.

Outpatient service!
Pick up and drop off!
12 operating rooms!
No waiting!
One quick visit to FATSUCKER will save you THOU$ANDS over your career!
I'll be rich!

[geckosfeet]

41. Does this open the door for sliding scale insurance premiums based on genetic makeup

or other health factors?

We know that insurance companies deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions.

Should they be allowed to cherry pick who they cover? That would likely mean that people who need coverage the most won't be able to get/afford coverage.

[raccoon]

51. That's already happening, if you have no group insurance and don't qualify for Medicare/Medicaid and

are paying for individual insurance. Then companies can cherry pick who they cover.



"Should they be allowed to cherry pick who they cover? That would likely mean that people who need coverage the most won't be able to get/afford coverage."

[LostinVA]

42. If they pay to help workers who are obese get healthy, I think that's great.

Nutritional counseling, gyms/personal trainers, even therapy -- then it's a positive.

I'm up in the air about this, although I see nothing wrong with charing higher insurance rates for smokers. As long as health insurance is a for-profit business, this is how it has to be.

Having to pay $25 a month insurance is a pretty good deal. Even when I worked for the State of Virginia, I still had to pay over $50 a month for myself. Now, I pay $150 a month for me and Haruka, which is very cheap compared to what some people pay, but I think it sucks, especially since we were just told our premiums are going up 29% starting in October.

Single Payer Health Care. I've been advocating it for almost 20 years.

[JeanGrey]

45. Only one problem. Not all obese people are unhealthy.

In fact according to the latest study the majority are not. Now what?

[LostinVA]

49. I would like to see the study, because I don't believe that at all

Most overweight people are probably healthy, but I don't agree that obese -- especially morbidly obese -- are healthy.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

54. I think they're talking about this:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080811195635.htm

[The Stranger]

71. Cardiac risk isn't the only risk from obesity, but that is the only risk considered in the study.

Obesity overloads and eventually breaks down the bodies systems, and it does this in numerous ways. That is why some obese people must have surgery to limit their food intake. It is a matter of life and death for them.

[JeanGrey]

67. The study was posted on here. But here you go:

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN1137223820080811?feedType=RSS&feedName=healthNews

By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - It may be possible to be both fat and healthy, researchers reported on Monday, for at least half of overweight adults, and close to a third of obese men and women, have normal blood pressure, cholesterol and other measures of heart health.

And being lean does not necessarily protect people, either. Close to a quarter of normal-weight U.S. adults in one study had risk factors for heart disease or diabetes.


My husband is considered obese has he weighs 250 lbs and is less than six feet. His last physical showed him in perfect health. Cholesterol: 175 Good Chol: High Bad Chol: Low. Blood Pressure 112/75. All blood counts perfect. Prostrate normal. Heart stress: normal. Everything normal.

Imagine that.

[JackDragna]

73. You're missing the point.

It's not impossible for those over a listed weight to be healthy. Many factors, from being simply a large person to being in good shape, can cause someone to be over what is considered a "healthy" weight. The problem with people who are overweight from carrying fat and currently in decent shape is the cost they'll pay later down the road in terms of cardiovascular problems, joint problems and predisposition to diabetes, cancer and other chronic health problems.

[JeanGrey]

87. No you are. There is nothing that says "they will pay down the

road". In fact the study shows that overweight people maybe just fine. Some of them won't, just as many will. Thin people will get sick as well. That is the entire point.

[JackDragna]

116. Really? From the CDC's own website:

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/

"This rate of obesity raises concern because of its implications for the health of Americans. Obesity increases the risk of many diseases and health conditions. These include–

Hypertension (high blood pressure)
Osteoarthritis (a degeneration of cartilage and its underlying bone within a joint)
Dyslipidemia (for example, high total cholesterol or high levels of triglycerides)
Type 2 diabetes
Coronary heart disease
Stroke
Gallbladder disease
Sleep apnea and respiratory problems
Some cancers (endometrial, breast, and colon) "

This, from the site that commissioned the study mentioned in the New York Times article. I also read the abstract from the paper..it mentioned, oddly enough, that while some 21% of people with normal weight were considered low-risk for health problems, some 52% of overweight people were healthy. An odd way of saying nearly half of all overweight people are at risk, isn't it?

[JeanGrey]

144. That is POSSIBLE. From the the last study it may not even

be likely. You can't fine someone when they are healthy.

[Codeine]

150. It's not a fine.

It's an increased payment for increased risk. It's no different than a person with a lot of accidents paying higher premiums to his auto insurance company.

[JeanGrey]

169. Sigh. But if a person is ok there is no "increased risk".

Sooner or later genetic testing will come in, will you think that is ok too when it is you?

[Celeborn Skywalker]

66. That is true to an extent.

However, certain types of abdominal and upper body fat, especially on men, have been linked to higher incidences of diabetes, high blood pressure, and elevated blood lipid levels (triglycerides and cholesterol).

[JeanGrey]

68. Doesn't make it true. My husband is obese and carries all

his weight in the upper body. He aced his last physical.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

74. I'm obviously not saying all cases.

I'm just saying obese men with most of their weight in their abdomen *tend* to have more health problems.

[JeanGrey]

86. But if studies show at least half are fine why should we all

be punished? The answer is more money.

[Codeine]

92. Half are not "fine."

Half are not subject to increased cardiac danger, but what about increased incident of adult-onset diabetes? Sleep apnea? Osteoarthritis? Fatty liver disease? Thrombosis? High blood pressure? Elevated triglycerides?

These are all documented effects of obesity. You can't handwave these away. They are part and parcel of being obese.

And even with the study you are mentioning, many researchers feel that the survival of fat people after a cardiac event is often as much to do with aggressive treatment and increased medical vigilance for these at-risk patients as anything else.

[JeanGrey]

145. Not always. That is the point. Why punish someone who is

overweight but healthy for something they may never get? Why, for money, that's why!

[Codeine]

149. Because statistically

obese people are at a much higher risk for this. Much higher. That's not punishment, that's basic actuarial risk management.

[JeanGrey]

201. Ok. Any heart disease in your family? Diabetes? Cancer?

History of stroke, blood clots, etc? YOU ARE AT RISK AND SHOULD HAVE TO PAY MORE. And you will, trust me. But I'm sure you will be willing and eager to pay as you totally understand risk, right?

[Celeborn Skywalker]

107. I don't think they should be punished.

I don't believe anyone should have to pay more than anyone else for health insurance. In fact, all medical care should be free but that's a discussion for another thread.

[Codeine]

120. That's just crazy.

I don't mean the free healthcare part, because I firmly believe in free universal healthcare as a worldwide right.

But if we do have an insurance-based system, like now, then it's absolutely clear that some people need to pay more, just like drivers with bad records pay more for auto insurance or people in Florida have higher premiums on house insurance. Insurance is a managed-risk endeavor.

[hadrons]

53. I suspect MOST workers will be effected, sorry but there's A LOT of ...

obesity down there

[Codeine]

77. Maybe if they "cover and smother" their food a little less

they can avoid being giant mounds of sweating fat.

[Missy Vixen]

114. It must be very, very exciting for you

>they can avoid being giant mounds of sweating fat.

to write things like the above. Thanks for letting us all know how utterly you disdain anyone who's not exactly like yourself.

Julie

[Codeine]

123. My girlfriend is fat.

Obese, really. Even she'll tell you it's her fault. I don't love her any less, but I don't have any illusions that her obesity is caused by anything other than an inability to control her eating habits. She eats large portions too often and exercises too little.

She's still beautiful.

[Missy Vixen]

131. I wish her well.

Having read your comments regarding the fat, it's hard to imagine that anyone identifying as "fat" would want to spend any time at all with you.

Julie

[Zhade]

138. Indeed. Sounds like battered wife syndrome, if anything.

NT!

[Codeine]

142. A rather nasty accusation.

I accept her flaws as she accepts mine. She's a big lady, and no less beautiful for that.

[INDIA]

168. NTeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!1!!!!

[DS1]

57. In other words, all of them?

[snooper2]

58. If I had a dime for every time somebody said they can't lose weight

and a couple hours later are stuffing chips in their face...

I would have more homes than McWobble can't remember :rofl:

[Codeine]

95. "I eat a normal diet and execise."

And yet if you had a hidden camera following them you'd see 4000 calories of food daily combined with four hours of television and four hours online.

Eat less. Move more.

[blueatheart]

158. wait a sec here

I agree 100% with you that overweight people take in more than they burn, that is science. To assume all obese people eat 4000 calories a day is far from being fair. I know plenty of thin people who eat 3000-4000 calories a day, fat laden foods and sweets all day, liters of soda, and consider getting up sluggishly to get the remote is an aerobic exercise. Yet they are thin, does it not figure then the opposite can also be true?

I am far from obese but for me to remain the recommended weight for my height I need to eat about 600 calories a day and exercise for 2 hours a day. That is not including playing sports and other activities with kids, housecleaning , parking the car far away from the entrance every time (except foul weather)etc. Now this is to REMAIN at my ideal weight, not lose it. If I want to lose it it is salad and water only.

Also I think often society believes the obese eat tons of food all day long, often, I think, it is lack of exercise and/or types of food consumed.


Now with that said, shouldn't the thin but unhealthy eaters also pay this fee? Throw in the smokers, heavy drinkers, people who participate in high risk sports, those more "prone" to sexual diseases, sunbathers, drug users and the thin but lazy people.

On a side note - I personally think people who wear too much cologne should be fined because I get severe headaches from the stench, especially cheap cologne.

[Codeine]

159. Those thin people

just have very high metabolisms. The same activity that burns a little energy in one person burns a lot in them. These people are not inherently healthier, however -- you're right about that. Someone upthread made a very good post about "Thin Fat People," who may be small but have all the symptoms that an obese person exhibits. This isn't tremendously common, but it does happen.

Exercise is a huge problem in America. People are simply not very active, which leads to sluggishness and obesity which in turn cuts their activity levels down even more. A viscous circle.

[Avalon Sparks]

193. I like your post...

It's true ..... some thin people eat all they want. I can gain weight on 1000 calories a day, from years of yo yo dieting - practically starvation in college to stay thin - I definitely wrecked my metabolic system.

What I eventually found works for me is that my body doesn't process carbs well. Even good carbs (fruits and grains) turn straight to fat. I now eat around 50 carbs a day - and as long as I stay around that number I lose weight - even on 2500 to 3000 calories a day. I can eat 50-90 carbs a day and maintain weight - even at up to 3500-4000 calories a day with little or no exercise....

I started tracking this stuff with Fit Day (a website) and over the past year, that's what my stats show.

I feel like I discovered some secret for ME. I'm not saying it will work for everyone. The minute I go over 100 carbs I start to gain weight - calories don't seem to matter at all in the process. I actually eat the complete opposite of the current food pyramid (skipping the sweets though). My diet consists mainly of fat and protein and I've never felt better.

I know that most people, including doctors, assume that obese people eat like gluttons, but based on my own experience I know that's not the case.

The people that think they have it all figured out for everyone else - can ONLY know what works for them. People should think about that BEFORE you posting assumptions and judgments.

[JeanGrey]

199. So you eat 600 calories a day and exercise two hours a day

to stay at the right weight? I'd rather be fat. Yuck.

[Skittles]

207. no, blue is saying she feels that is what she'd NEED to do

to meet those weight guidelines - she may be exaggerating a bit but I believe the gist in what she is saying - for many people there's simply more to it than calories in / calories out - and I think that for some people it can indeed be healthier to be overweight than to stay thin using a horrendous regime.

[blueatheart]

212. I don't anymore

I am about 15-20 lbs overweight currently and eat more than that. It is yuck and after years of hardly eating and all that exercising, your right, I will stick to being chubby. If people do not like it too bad, I am not trying to win any beauty contest.


My kids are all thin though (lol, maybe I should try feeding them, just kidding) and I was thin until puberty, one of those kids who got picked on because they were too skinny. Now I am a bit too chubby for society.

[LeftyMom]

211. That just plain defies the laws of physics.

Aerobic activity is going to burn off 500 cal/hr or so, depending on what you do and your weight. You'll burn 600 calories a day just by sleeping for eight hours- your body needs to keep your blood pumping, lungs going, roll you over every now and then, feed your brain, do repairs, etc and all take some energy. So just two hours of working out and eight of sleep puts you at about 1600 calories to break even, assuming your body magically had no caloric needs for the rest of the day.

So either you're clinically dead, you somehow go about your day and yet burn fewer calories a day than a coma patient, or you're real unclear on what 600 calories a day looks like (that's one normal-sized healthy meal.) Either way, there's a Nobel prize in Medicine to be had for whoever documents that, if not a whole new branch of physics, since that whole matter/energy thing would need to be revised.

[blueatheart]

213. really do not care what you think

I know what the hell 600 calories is. You are assuming the average person in your plain ole physics. Uhm, does your education inform you that some people do not burn 500 cal/hr OR SO? I know how to add despite your comments. I know how to read. I am not a blithering idiot and obviously not comatose and I know what the hell I ate. I know what the hell an hour is. You do not know as much as you think you do. Funny thing is you think you know so much but I KNOW because I went through it. But hey what ever makes you feel better about yourself.

[LeftyMom]

214. Then you have the weirdest metabolism ever, and doctors should be lining up to study you.

I anxiously await the resulting journal articles.

But in the meantime I'm calling BS, because what you're saying would only make sense if your body were somehow deriving energy from a source other than food, and I suspect that it's more likely that you're overstating your activity or understating your caloric needs than that you're powered by photosynthesis.

[blueatheart]

215. again ,you opinion means nothing to me

[LeftyMom]

216. Then stop posting things that make no sense.

It's insulting to the readership of this board to post things that are obviously untrue.

[blueatheart]

217. lol, what? I say your opinion means nothing to me and you

say then stop posting things that do not make sense, uhm , your last post therefore makes no sense in relation to mine.

[LeftyMom]

218. It's a message board. If you don't want to see other people's opinions, get a blog

and turn the comments off.

In the meantime, if you post nonsense, you'll get called on it, because that's how message boards work. Welcome to DU.

[blueatheart]

219. does not change the fact your post makes no sense.. n.t.

[LeftyMom]

220. Have a lovely evening.

As much as I'm enjoying talking with somebody who lives in a parallel universe operating on different physical constants from our own, here on Earth we have these great things called burritos that we eat for sustenance and mine is calling my name (not literally.)

[blueatheart]

221. "As much as I'm enjoying talking with somebody "

Talking: human communication by means of spoken language or hand signals.

[flvegan]

222. Don't really know shit about nutrition and caloric expenditure, do you?

[blueatheart]

223. as I told other poster, do not care what you think

Yes, this is a forum but does not mean I have to give two shits what you say. I know what the fuck I ate and how long I exercised. I also know 23.78 post a day for 4 years is a lot and someone needs to get life and get off their ass, get away from the computer and get some exercise.

[flvegan]

224. I'm a professional.

I have 3 certifications as a personal trainer and a sports nutritionist. Don't give two shits, that's fine. And as for me getting exercise, check my Journal for a pic. You may be somewhat surprised.

So again, you. don't. know. shit.

[blueatheart]

226. again means shit..

Oh, shocking, I am so surprised. Does not discount that you have no life. I think it is unrealistic that your certified in anything. But hey you said you are so it must be true, everyone else but you lies.

[flvegan]

227. Unrealistic?

Please, do be specific.

[LeftyMom]

229. Oh hon, surely you 'shopped yourself a shitpile of photos years ago

and set up a whole personality (across multiple fora, with at least one IRL contact- I must say *I* find your body quite convincing :rofl: ) with all of these qualifications years ago so when somebody spouted some crap on the internet in 2008, you could tell them that they were wrong.

You're not a trainer at all! You're a psychic with a very strange sense of humor!

[flvegan]

232. I just hate that I've mislead some odd 40 DUers with advice

They came to me, I tried to help...but here I am, exposed as a fake by a...well, you can see it.

:cry:

[LeftyMom]

233. You had fooled me IRL too.

Kinda hard to do, considering. :cry:

[flvegan]

235. It took

a sub-100 post DUer to expose me. Granted, the grasp of grammar and English aside, still a fine job. What's nice is my new reputation as a quality Photoshopper.

[LeftyMom]

236. Next time I visit, could you 'shop me some boobs?

It's not fair that your pecs exceed my tits.

[Name removed]

247. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyMom]

248. Wow. That's an ignorant pile of shit.

For what it's worth, the certifications are something her pursued in his spare time, as he does training on a volunteer basis. He has a college education and a high dollar corporate job too, he's just well rounded. However the certifications are the thing that shows that he knows what he's talking about on this matter, as his career and primary education are a completely unrelated field.

Your assumption that he must be some galoot who fell off of the the turnip truck last night simply because he's big and he disagrees with you is fallacious. Should you wish to present yourself as being someone whose opinion is worth reading, you would be wise to avoid ad hominem attacks, especially on people who have already established a reputation for knowing more about the subject than you.

[flvegan]

249. Yep, you got me, Mannix.

My certs mean I know more than most doctors do about nutrition and exercise, regardless of how slow you think I may appear.

blueatheart, as much as I love personal attacks, I'm not going to imbibe with you this evening. Shame, too. I've helped a good number of DUers with weight problems. You elaborated above that you were "chubby" and maybe I would've helped you with that. You just seem too angry and hateful for that, and since I know so little, and with your assumption I have no real degree, maybe that's best.

Oh, and did it occur to you, as to my post count, that I'm so fucking efficient and good at my job in management with a Fortune 500 company, that it gives me time (while camped in front of a computer) to goof off on a message board. I mean, "slow look" and all.

Choke on it.

[Hannah Bell]

245. everyone's got something. we should all be punished.

i predict the number of folks who shape up will be balanced by the number who gain more weight because of increased depression & inactivity secondary to increased sense of being scapegoated.

i really really hate the nasty kind of place america is becoming.

[1776Forever]

61. Thin people who can eat anything don't want to hear about those of us who have thyroid problems....

But there are some of us who really do have health problems that cause us to be more overweight then we would normally be! I have been through 6 years of high stress with 2 sons in Iraq and another with no insurance who has progressive MS and went through torture because of it. The stress didn't get any less when I lost my home because of high taxes and insurance in Florida. I am older now and that makes it even harder for me to loose weight. I eat around 2500 calories a day and eat healthy most of the time. It just is amazing to me that my weight goes down when I am in less stressful situations. I thought about doing more meditation. If anyone knows how to de-stress more please give me some ideas.

[Codeine]

81. But if a person can't eat 2500 calories and stay healthy,

doesn't that mean that the person should eat a little less? 2500 calories is what a normal, active male should eat -- obviously if you experience weight gain from that amount of food it's too much for you. An active female should be eating more in the range of 2000 calories, and even less if you are older and sedentary. 2500 is simply too much food energy for your immediate needs. :shrug: I don't get it. Why not eat less and stay at a healthy weight?

[1776Forever]

112. That was a typo - I actually eat around 2000 or less a day.

I don't think that is too much food for a full day. Usually more often around 1500. Been eating 300 calorie meals for lunch and no dinner lately. I know I should eat more sometimes. Just don't feel like it.

[Codeine]

117. If you are gaining weight,

it is too much, at least at the time you are in a high-stress environment. You can counteract this with more exercise, or less food. Exercise is the better choice, because it helps fight the stress and depression that life piles on us.

[Starlight]

109. Unless you're an athlete or very active, 2500 calories is a lot to eat in a day.

[Missy Vixen]

118. But we're making it up!

:sarcasm:

If we really wanted to be thin, we would be!

:sarcasm:

The latest study lied! There are no healthy people with a BMI over 25! Those who are, well, they're an anomaly! Those who aren't, well, they should be shot! After all, others have to look at them, and it's not pleasant!

:sarcasm:

I can only aspire to their perfection.

Julie

[Codeine]

125. Actually,

if they wanted to be thin, they would be. They can eat less and move more. 2000 calories is too much for a sedentary person to eat. That's why sedentary people with 2000 calorie diets tend to get fat.

Not rocket surgery.

[pookieblue]

160. sometimes it's just not that simple....

Not everyone can just lose weight that easy. not everyone gains weight by overeating...

there are such things at Thyroid problems. I have that issue (on top of MS). I ended up gaining a lot of weight..because the meds for the MS fried my thyroid. To top that off, I had to take steriods.

Now I'm off the one MS med. taking something for my thyroid. But I am having to work at the weight loss. And still, I will never be thin again. I have lost some of the weight and my doctors are proud of it. I am still trying to lose weight...but I'm not going to kill myself just to be 'thin."

also, I have a friend who is undergoing treatment for brain cancer. not only did she have to do the chemo and radition. But she has to take steriods. she ended up gaining over 100lbs. And it most certianly was because she was eating too much. not with the chemo.


another note of interest...Stress can make it hard to lose weight. It triggers something in the body. The lack of sleep can make it hard to lose weight. My doctor was telling me this, saying I need to cut as much stress from my life. And not only b/c it's bad for the MS. It's bad period. Stress can wreck a person's body.

[mitchum]

64. The results of obesity are far more of a burden to our system than...

the results of smoking.
I pay $40 a month as a smoker.
Let the overeaters pay their $25. It's only (sorta) fair.

[JeanGrey]

69. Nonsense. According to a study half have no problems from

obesity at all. This is just a way to steal more money.

[mitchum]

72. And was that study funded by Frito Lay?

[JeanGrey]

84. Read it for yourself.

I believe it is link'd upthread.

[beandoc]

99. Read the data, not the NY times article

And see my reply to the linked study.

People who don't smoke sometimes get lung cancer. Some people who smoke don't get lung cancer
Car accidents happen without people driving drunk. Some people drive drunk without getting into an accident
People who are not obese have diabetes and heart attacks. Some obese people do not have diabetes and heart attacks.

The above statements are true, but have nothing to do with cause and effect other than ruling out smoking, drunk driving, and obesity as the sole risk factor for adverse events. They do not rule them out as a risk factor, nor do they address the severity of the risk.

[JeanGrey]

147. I never said "rule them out" for a risk factor. But that is NOT

what is happening. They are lumping the entire population into one group. If you are overweight, you're going to get sick and you must pay more. That is not true.

[Codeine]

151. No, if you are obese,

you are at greater risk for these conditions. Greater risk = higher payments.

[JeanGrey]

152. Wait until your genetics are taken into account.

[Codeine]

82. That was a very limited study

that focused on one aspect of health. Clinging to that like a scrap of wood in a shipwreck is silly. Health professionals know that obesity brings a host of problems.

[JeanGrey]

85. To some. Others are fine.

This reminds me of the group that thinks if they don't smoke they can't get lung cancer.

[Codeine]

90. In truth it's MUCH more

reminiscent of the group that thinks if you smoke you are not in any significantly increased danger of lung cancer. You are desperately trying to blur the clear causal connection between ill health and obesity on the basis of one study focused entirely on one aspect of health, just as a rabid smoker handwaves the dangers of his addiction.

It's beyond silly.

[JeanGrey]

198. No dear. That group would be the ones who never smoked

and foolishly believe they AREN'T at risk for it, which they are. One of the fastest growing groups are non smokers and never smokers. Be happy to send you to the facts on that one.

[Recursion]

91. The US medical system suffers from anorexic ideation

The risks of weight fluctuation outweigh the risks of overweight.

Now, obesity is a different matter altogether, and I at least applaud a state for thinking about it as a problem, even if this particular solution isn't particularly wise.

[Codeine]

93. Losing weight does not equal

weight fluctuation or "anorexic ideation." That's a strawman. One can easily maintain a healthy lifestyle with lifestyle and diet changes. Fluctuation is the result of not maintaining the healthier habits and reverting to old eating and exercise patterns. If you burn the same amount of energy you consume you simply cannot gain weight. If you decrease activity, decrease the food energy you absorb accordingly. This ain't rocket surgery!

Eat healthy foods, mostly plants. Don't eat too much. Stay active. You'll be fine, and not fat.

[Recursion]

130. I agree in principle

Planned and maintained weight loss does not equal weight fluctuation.

The actual activities overweight people engage in tend to equal weight fluctuation.

I think I'm mostly arguing semantics here; I'd imagine we both agree that if we avoided processed sugars, hydrogenated oils and fats, and engaged in appropriate exercise we'd be a much healthier country. It's just a particular pet peeve of mine that people think "weight loss" on its own is an unqualified good: weight that is lost and regained is more dangerous than weight that was kept the entire time.

[Codeine]

140. Absolutely.

Yoyo dieting is bad news.

[Oak2004]

163. If it was that simple, there would not be so much research on the subject

Do you actually believe those researchers are studying something, or do you think hundreds, perhaps thousands, of scientists, are just punching their dinner ticket and snickering about how they've fooled us all?

[blueatheart]

165. very good point.... e.o.m.

[Scout]

208. "This ain't rocket surgery!"

please get it right....

"it's not rocket SCIENCE" or "it's not brain SURGERY"

no one does rocket surgery

now back to the scheduled ignorant bigotry of your latest post

[Codeine]

241. Oh dear,

you aren't familiar with the term "rocket surgery?" It a joke, a combination of two commonly used cliches to make a new, deliberately ironic term. Keep trying, though -- you'll get the hang of things eventually. ;)

[no limit]

102. I actually like the idea. But how in the world will decide who is overweight?

The body mass index is a terrible way to tell if you are overweight. Very fit people can show up obese on this scale. So how in the world will they actually decide who needs to pay and who doesn't?

[Beer Snob-50]

103. isn't alabama one of the most unhealthy states in the union already?

dum f**ks

[Codeine]

106. Dumb f*cks?

For trying to address the issue? :shrug:

[piedmont]

172. Dumb fuck yourself. nt

[alarimer]

104. If they use the bogus BMI, everyone is overweight.

This is just a hidden way to increase premiums. They didn't have the guts to force their employees to pay higher premiums (all of them). Instead they get it by only forcing select employees (how exactly are they going to define overweight, just X number of pounds over what they "should" weigh?) to pay the extra premiums.

And how would they know what the emplyees weigh anyway? If it is self-reported, wouldn't everyone just lie anyway? I know I would shave 20 pounds off my weight in that case. Or doe they have some kind of weigh-in at work? Any information you give your doctor or that they take at an exam is PRIVATE. Your employer is not allowed to know any of it. So this plan at the very least violates HIPAA.

[Codeine]

105. Presumably the insurance company makes the charge,

rather than the employer; they would just pass the charge on. Your insurance company knows your conditions.

[alarimer]

127. I don't think insurance companies are allowed by law to do that.

They cannot inform your employer of your condition, whatever it may be.

[Codeine]

129. They don't have to.

They just up the premium. :shrug:

[LuckyStrykes]

121. First they came after the smokers...

[JeanGrey]

200. They are working on genetic testing for predisposition to

certain diseases RIGHT NOW! All these people laughing their asses off at the "fatties" will be the first to take it on the chin as soon as that is implemented. I for one, will be laughing the hardest.

And as an aside, does anyone here REALLY think that once we have National Health Care that the government is going to be any less stringent than any insurance company, because if you do, you are truly in denial.

[KamaAina]

122. Don't they have AFSCME down there?

Any self-respecting union would be screaming bloody murder over something like this.

edit: punctuation

[LuckyStrykes]

128. No AFSCME in Bammy

there is an Alabammy Employees Association. They think this is a great idea.

[Sin]

124. I hope they adopt this in every state :)

Special places for them to sit in theaters,restaurants, planes, should be next. With extra cost or some form of exclusion or it won't be fun
Started that ball rolling didn't ya might as well keep that sucker flying down the hill at full speed.
Wha Wha Wha you hit the whammy.

[Khaotic]

126. Just the beginning

Next will be every worker who receives a paycheck from Uncle Same, i.e. every federal worker.

At first it will have iniatives like giving workers an hour to workout three times a week (of couse at their supervisor's discretion).

The time to workout will be seen as something an employee needs to do on their own time and few supervisor will embrace it (just like telecommuting).

The employee will be mandated to make time on their schedule to workout or whatever it takes to slim down, or they lose their job.

Eventually this will be nationwide.

The only way it will work is if the federal government mandates that agencies must give time to employees to workout the same as they must give them time to take a lunch.

In the far off distant future, it will be commonplace that everyone works out at least 3 times a week and it will be supported as a worker's right.

The growing pains to get that far will be many.

[Popol Vuh]

133. ...

"AMERICA LAND OF THE FREE!"

[Zhade]

134. This is wrong. Some people are gentically prone to being overweight.

Despite what some sanctimonious ASSHOLES on this thread think.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

174. It is wrong.

No one should pay more than anyone else. However, genetic inclination to obesity is overstated. Look at Europe. If it was genetics then they would have as many overweight people as the United States does. IMHO, it is the additives and unnecessary shit poured into our food that makes American heavier than citizens of other countries.

This whole discussion shouldn't be happening anyway because we should have a national health care system.

[melody]

161. Since the fattest woman outlives the thinnest man, will men be charged more?

I'm just asking.

[Codeine]

164. Men often pay higher premiums.

We eat badly, smoke more, and put off medical visits. We're clearly a higher risk, and this is reflected in the actuarial tables.

[melody]

166. But they aren't in the situation we're describing

Thin black women don't live as long as fat black women. Black men have a significantly shorter lifespan. Do we charge more to them?

It's a VERY dangerous door we open with this. The control freaks who hate fat people will love it. But it sets a dangerous precident -- I'd much rather pay more per person than open the system to bigotry.

[piedmont]

173. I'll bet you don't have a link for that statement. nt

[melody]

175. Oh, I bet I do. :)

It was substantive and in JAMA. I'll pull it off my laptop tomorrow and post it here or PM it to you.

Not only that, but fat black women live longer than thin black women. Fat people live longer while suffering all forms of
cancer. We also do better after heart attacks. Fat senior citizens live longer than thin senior citizens.

I know the aesthetic reaction causes people to hate fat people but the current medical mindset about fat is based on
bigotry -- nothing more.

Here are some other links:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/15/1861?maxtoshow=&eaf
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/for-the-overweight-a-new-definition-of-health/

I should also add that I've seen two doctors who turned me down for weight loss surgery (even if it took ten years off my
life, I'd do ANYTHING to escape the bigotry fat people are attacked with) because I'm too healthy. I have normal BP and
cholesterol levels. I'm active. I have normal blood sugar. In short, the risks of surgery are greater to me than the risks
of staying obese.

[olddad56]

167. I'm underweight, do I get a pay raise.

[TexasBushwhacker]

179. I bet they still sell Goo Goos in the snack machine

I'm obese and I really don't have a problem with this. For one thing, it's only $25 a month. For another, it's for people who are OBESE, not people who are a few pounds overweight. It's for people whose weight puts them at higher risk for a number of diseases.

HOWEVER, I would like to see workplaces more helpful for those who want to have healthier lifestyles. For example, at the company I work for the salaried workers can take lunch breaks as longer as they want (within reason) and some take 90 minutes or so to work out, as well as eat their lunch. Those of us who are paid hourly can't take more than 1 hour, and some can take only 30 minutes. I'd happily work 30 minutes later if I could take a longer break during the day. I'd like to see more companies have gyms for employees for the same reason. It's a pretty low cost way to increase employees health.

At the end of the day, state employees still have it better than most of us. Their health insurance is FREE.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

185. The funniest thing about this thread is that the people running down fat people...

...are so completely ignorant about obesity it is disgusting.
I have better cholesterol levels and my heart is healthier than half of the skinny people I know. My doctor thought it was weird too, and put me through a bunch of tests, but you know what? My thyroid gland is just that funny. And he told me so.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Duckie

[bamacrat]

186. Good, Alabama is way too fat.

But our problem here is education, there has to be a correlation between poor education and obesity. I say this because the south is easily the least educated region in America and the fattest.

[depakid]

244. The connection is between education and low socioeconomic status

and low socioeconomic status and obesity.

From the New England Journal of Medicine:

One of the most striking facts about obesity is the powerful inverse relation between obesity and socioeconomic status in the developed world, especially among women. What is responsible for this association? There are at least three possibilities: obesity influences socioeconomic status, socioeconomic status influences obesity, or a common factor or factors influence both obesity and socioeconomic status. There is evidence to support each of these possibilities, and limits to the evidence for each.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/329/14/1036

[Overseas]

187. Just confiscate their TVs with the hundreds of SNACK SNACK SNACK messages every day. /n

[DeadEyeDyck]

195. Why not?

I am into high energy sports and pay out the nose for my insurance. I ride a Harley, have over 1500 skydives and cave-dive. I just had surgery for a skating Half-Pipe accident last year.

I take the risks and I am willing to pay for them. That is how insurance works. It is an upside down gamble. I am betting my insurance company that I will bite the big one soon and they are betting i will survive.

I am rooting for them!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

196. First they came for the smokers . . .

[Infinite Hope]

197. They demand more resources and so should pay more. Just like smokers and others. n/t

[Missy Vixen]

204. What "resources" might those be?

I'd like a list.

We don't have kids. We drive an economy car. I could go on.

Enlighten me. I can't wait for what you'll come up with.

Julie

[flvegan]

228. "and others"

You mean like folks that eat meat and may need cholesterol meds? As a nonsmoking vegan, I look forward to my pending insurance breaks.

Slippery slope, especially in this case considering it's going to be based (I'll bet) on bullshit like the BMI.

[LeftyMom]

230. As a nonsmoking female vegan 9 years your junior, I figure I'll get paid to take health insurance.

Especially when you factor in that two of my grandparents were healthy past 90 and one was running marathons well into his 80s.

[flvegan]

234. Dude, my mom is 70, vegetarian

and weight training completely under my guidance (fake as it may be, per our little friend). She's moving weight that makes the young fellas there take notice. Drop sets, super sets, pyramid sets, super slow...oh, yeah prepare to get pwned by an "old lady" kids. I'm waiting for Ah-nold to appoint her to some committee...

[LeftyMom]

237. Dude, my mom is 50, lives on Pepsi and brownies, and... I have no idea where I'm going with this.

She drives a Camaro and she's got a lot of tattoos. That counts for something.

My mom= teh awesome.

[JeanGrey]

253. Tell that to my non smoking, vegan, marathon running

friend who is 42 and dying of stage 4 lung cancer.

[Nevernose]

206. Will they spring for gym memberships?

An ounce of prevention, and all that. Too many government entities won't spring for anything preventive, since it's the taxpayer's money and conservatives will just blast them for it, but many private companies are starting to realize that paying for things like gym membership, gyms at the workplace, even personal trainers to come to a department once a week to answer questions, all end up SAVING MONEY. But only in the long run, and government entities almost never think in terms of the long run.

For instance, the school district I work for recently agreed to pony up $50 a YEAR for gym memberships -- and that's if you carry their most expensive health plan.

[DustyJoe]

209. How Unfair

If the screenings turn up serious problems with blood pressure, cholesterol, glucose or obesity, employees will have a year to see a doctor at no cost, enroll in a wellness program, or take steps on their own to improve their health. If they show progress in a follow-up screening, they won’t be charged. But if they don’t, they must pay starting in January 2011.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glucose Tests ... oh my
I will tell my Grandaughter who contracted juvenile diabetes at 9 years old to never get a job in that state. Wasn't her lifestyle or eating, was viral that killed off her insulin producing cells.
She would love a wellness program that will stop the 8 blood tests and 6 insulin shots a day to stay alive to not have to happen. BTW she is 11 now.

[goforit]

210. Same thing in Missouri...healthcare wise

[flvegan]

225. This article is very unclear on how "overweight" is determined.

Is it the BMI, which is an ignorant scale made up by fools with no ability to judge fitness?

[appleannie1]

239. When my sister is under even mild stress she could only eat a lettuce leaf and 8 glasses of water

a day and still gain weight. She has been like that all her adult life. When her husband was dying of cancer she lived on one grapefruit a day and still ballooned to almost 300 pounds. The doctor told her it was a stress related hormone problem. Unfortunately she lives in Alabama. Right now she has been on chemo for a couple months and has gained weight even though she can hardly eat anything. I guess that having to come up with an extra $25 a month on top of everything else will cause her to gain even more weight.

[Morning Dew]

242. the article doesn't mention family coverage

Is Alabama going to screen their employees families as well?

That's a whole 'nother can of worms.

[superconnected]

243. Next up smokers, after that people with speeding tickets, after that

well, they'll just come up with something for everyone.

Oh, and to defend this, you'll have to hate everyone and not just overweight people. But I suspect the discriminators on this thread already have a whole list of people other than just overweight people they would like to see discriminated against. Acquiescence of this happening to one group is a symptom of a much bigger fascism.

[Adarlene]

246. Everyone is insured...

Fat, thin, smoker, skydiver, drug addict.... ALL are covered by government health insurance. Rates are dependent on level of income, not risk factors. If you break a leg, you are covered. If you get emphazima (sp) from smoking, you are covered. If you have heart disease because of lifestyle factors, you are covered... in Canada.
I've never known any person who had to wait for necessary surgery nor anyone who has ever suffered for lack of care.
You guys need to make healthcare an individual human right because all humans have the right to medical care.