Nato cools relations with Russia

[dipsydoodle]

Source: BBC News

Nato foreign ministers have said there will be "no business as usual" with Russia, as they urged Moscow to pull its troops out of Georgia immediately.

The declaration followed emergency talks in Brussels about the conflict with Georgia over its breakaway region of South Ossetia.

Some Russian troops have been seen leaving the Georgian town of Gori.

But Georgia's interior ministry dismissed the move as a "show aimed at creating the illusion of a withdrawal".


Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7570394.stm

[ohio2007]

1. Obama slams Russia ( CNN LIVE)

Russia must leave Georgia.

[dipsydoodle]

4. That's a tactical remark

and not necessarily a very good one.

[AlphaCentauri]

8. He will confuse the electorate

people will think it doesn't matter who are they voting for, they will get the same ideas.

[WriteDown]

2. This was predictable...

Looks like NATO is going to become much more involved with Georgia at this point and at their request. I am just waiting for Putin to start banging a shoe at a UN security council meeting.

[maddezmom]

3. Aid agencies press Russia for access to S. Ossetia

Aid agencies press Russia for access to S. Ossetia 19 Aug 2008 12:46:48 GMT
Source: Reuters
By Stephanie Nebehay

GENEVA, Aug 19 (Reuters) - Humanitarian aid agencies pressed top Russian authorities on Tuesday for safe access to South Ossetia, where tens of thousands of people are deemed in need of vital supplies. Russian troops control access to the rebel Georgian province, which has been out of reach for aid workers since the start of an 11-day-old conflict between Moscow and Tbilisi.

Jakob Kellenberger, president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, held talks with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in Moscow on Tuesday. U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees Antonio Guterres was to meet Lavrov on Wednesday.

"We don't have access to South Ossetia, so to have a full picture of the humanitarian impact of the conflict there is impossible at this time," ICRC spokeswoman Anna Nelson told a news briefing in Geneva.

"One of our top priorities for when we are able to gain access -- we're hoping following a meeting with Mr Lavrov that we will have access -- is to evaluate the state of medical care, particularly for weapon-wounded people," she said.

more:http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LJ447708.htm

[Ghost Dog]

9. Yes, pressure needs to be applied especially on this point.

But note that Russia is needed to provide the necessary security (as well as infrastructure, services etc., I guess).

In this AFP article Russia warns of Georgia withdrawal delays:

19/08/2008 10h57 TBILISI (AFP) - Russia's army remained entrenched in Georgia Tuesday and a top official warned that withdrawal could be delayed, as the main Western military alliance met in crisis session to discuss the conflict.

...

Despite Moscow's assurances of having started a pullout Monday, there was no sign on the ground of major troop movements out of the ex-Soviet republic, which shares the Caucasus mountains border with Russia.

...

Russia's ambassador to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, said a complete withdrawal "depends on the policy of (Georgian President Mikheil) Saakashvili and the action of his forces."

...

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said Tuesday that Russia must withdraw its troops "at least from the heart of Georgia" for a durable ceasefire to be possible.

"The most important thing at the moment is to consolidate the situation which is still fragile and to bring about a lasting ceasefire," Steinmeier said as he arrived at the NATO meeting in Brussels.

...

The withdrawal will not be implemented "very swiftly", a defence ministry official was quoted as saying Tuesday in the Russian daily Kommersant. "Nobody is planning to withdraw the Russian contingent very swiftly, as there is no such necessity," he said.

UN agencies and non-governmental organizations meanwhile appealed for 58.6 million dollars (40 million euros) to provide relief aid for tens of thousands of civilians affected by the conflict.

Five more US military flights with relief supplies were dispatched to Georgia on Monday as Washington considered the possibility of sea humanitarian missions, officials said.

Returning from a visit to Georgia, US Senator Joseph Biden said he would work on preparing a one billion dollar (670 million euro) aid package for Georgia.

/... http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/newsmlmmd.af21b61ab59784b51708a8ef955c8df3.311.html

[maddezmom]

18. Red Cross gains access to Georgia war zone

NATO accuses Russia of not honoring agreed cease-fire with Georgia

Russian Foreign Minister says NATO announcement is "biased"

NEW: Red Cross to head for South Ossetia, Gori, for the first time

NEW: Russia says conflict left 64 troops dead, another 323 injured

(CNN) -- NATO and Russia remained at loggerheads over the crisis in Georgia Wednesday, as the Red Cross plans to send aid workers to South Ossetia for the first time.


A convoy of Russian armored vehicles pictured outside Gori Tuesday.

Jakob Kellenberger, president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, speaking at the organization's headquarters in Geneva, said it would send workers to Tskhinvali, capital of the disputed region of South Ossetia, as well as bolster its presence in badly affected areas of Georgia.

Both Russia and Georgia have accused each other of ethnic cleansing during the conflict, which has centered on the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

The Red Cross announcement came after discussions between Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Kellenberger.

more:http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/20/georgia.russia.war/index.html?section=cnn_latest

[maddezmom]

5. more: Separately, they agreed to set up a new forum known as a NATO-Georgia Commission to deepen tie

Separately, they agreed to set up a new forum known as a NATO-Georgia Commission to deepen ties with Tbilisi.

NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer told a news conference it would function along similar lines to an 11-year-old arrangement with Ukraine but would not prejudge Georgia's prospects of entering the alliance.

De Hoop Scheffer said Russian forces needed to return to their positions as of August 6, and until Russian troops withdrew from Georgia he could not see the possibility of a meeting between NATO states and Russia.

"We certainly have not the intention to close all doors," he said, but added in reference to the promised Russian troop withdrawal: "It's not happening at the moment."

more:http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSLJ47786020080819

[maddezmom]

6. Russia's Lavrov says NATO Georgia statement "biased"

Source: Reuters

MOSCOW, Aug 19 (Reuters) - Russia said on Tuesday that NATO's statement on the conflict in Georgia was biased and accused the Western military alliance of trying to save a "criminal regime" in Tbilisi.

"NATO is trying to make a victim of an aggressor and whitewash a criminal regime, save a collapsing regime and is taking a path to the rearmament of the current leaders in Georgia," Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told reporters.

Read more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LJ118266.htm

[freedomnorth]

7. "It is our freedom to sell weapons to Georgia"

- Head of Military-Industrial complex

[Dover]

10. Russian military unit leaves Georgian town

Source: Reuters

By Dmitry Solovyov

GORI, Georgia (Reuters) - A column of Russian tanks and armoured vehicles left the Georgian city of Gori on Tuesday in what Russian officials said was the start of the pull-back demanded by the West.

A Reuters reporter saw four armoured personnel carriers and up to three tanks start up their engines and move out of Gori, which Russian forces had occupied this month in a conflict over Georgia's breakaway South Ossetia region.

The move followed a NATO call for Russia to respect a peace deal with Georgia and pull out its troops, although alliance members were cool on a U.S. demand that NATO consider scaling back ties with Moscow.

"This is one of the first units to be pulled out," said an official from Russia's foreign ministry, which arranged for reporters to watch the column leave. The unit's commander said they were heading for the Russian city of Vladikavkaz.

It was not immediately clear if other Russian units were also pulling out of their positions inside Georgia....>

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL768040420080819

[maddezmom]

11. Russians detain Georgian soldiers at port and take US military equipment

POTI, Georgia: Russian forces detained 21 Georgian soldiers in the Black Sea port of Poti on Tuesday. On a day when Russian troops continued to dig in to positions across Georgia, the detention of the troops - who were bound and blindfolded - was further evidence of continued military activity on Georgian territory by Russia despite assurances that its troops would withdraw.

The Georgians, who were blindfolded and bound, were taken by the Russians to a military base at Senaki, along with five armored Humvees from the U.S. military that were to have been shipped back to the United States. The Humvees had been used in joint U.S.-Georgian military exercises three months ago, said Eduard Machevoriani, the port's commercial director.

A top Russian military official, Colonel General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said that the Georgian soldiers were disarmed at a checkpoint Monday and that they had been armed with automatic rifles, submachine guns and grenade launchers, Interfax reported.

Another senior Russian military official, Colonel Igor Konashenkov, said the Russians would destroy all weapons and ammunition that they seized during their operation in Georgia but would take all tanks and armored vehicles that they find in good condition. Among the seized arms are 2,000 small arms and 65 tanks, of which 44 were in "excellent condition," he said, according to Interfax.

more:http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/19/europe/georgia.php

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. Russia seems to think Georgia is just a source for eBay stuff

looking for the 'good' and 'excellent condition' stuff. How much loner will the official looting continue?

[maddezmom]

13. probably for 3-4 more days

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3444521

[Mudoria]

14. Russian armies have always been particularly good at looting

and stealing anything they can get their hands on. I'm sure one of the reasons the withdrawal will take awhile is so they can increase the haul.

[TheLastMohican]

17. Wow

You speak like an "expert" on this one.(sarcasm off)

This is a georgian military hardware and Georgia was responsible for starting a war of aggression. Russia ensures that the Georgian military capability is destroyed so nothing like that crap happens again in the future.

Do you know what happened to Iraq national museum and where its treasures ended up?

US army loots and steals in Iraq just as much if not more. So pointing fingers to others and saying "look at them steal" is kinda ridiculous, don't you think?

[Igel]

19. Ah.

The first dead were Georgians. But Russia has decreed that those are "pre-beginning", so they're not countable.

I even read one report today that there were only 1000 Russian troops in S. Ossetia, out of the 400 they were allowed (and the 1500 that they said they added in April). But the official line is that 1000 were there, and were agreed to, so what does the actual text of documents signed. Govorit Moskva.

The Russians have been great at looting. They stripped Germany after WWII, having stripped much of the Baltics before WWII. They even stripped much of the industrial base from the countries they "liberated" during WWII (except Poland, that was pre-liberated before it was un-pre-liberated and re-liberated).

In the case of the US Humvees, they're neither Georgian nor used in the war of aggression. So "this is a georgian military hardware" is, I think, prime example of not so true fact. Much is georgian. Not all georgian. Tak.

The Iraq National Museum, in hintermeme-land, was looted by mercenaries apparently flown in by the US for the sole purpose of making good secular Iraqi Arabs forget their pagan and pre-Arab past and turn from Islam, or something like that. Most other say they were locals, sometimes Sunnis or Shi'ites, often Ba'thists, with a smattering of US troops (either buying looted things or digging up relics missed by Iraqi looters in Babylon). Of course, some of the biggest treasures were "prelooted" and stored for safety. Now, where they ended up depends on who was doing the selling and buying. But inferring intent from outcome is a very risky business for all but the omniscient.

As for the US Army looting and stealing, hear about the large service contract probably being signed with China, as opposition to smaller Western oil company service contracts bog down?

Of course, you are right: The North did loot and rape the South in a war of aggression.

[bemildred]

15. Russia: Nato aids 'criminal regime'

Source: Agencies

Russia has accused Nato of trying to "whitewash a criminal regime" in Tbilisi and seeking to rearm Georgia's leaders.

"Nato is trying to make a victim of an aggressor and whitewash a criminal regime - save a collapsing regime - and is taking a path to the rearmament of the current leaders in Georgia," Sergei Lavrov, Russia's foreign minister, said on Tuesday.

Lavrov's remarks followed a meeting in Brussels of Nato foreign ministers in which they warned there could be "no business as usual" with Russia, and called for the immediate withdrawal of Russian troops from Georgia.

Dmitry Medvedev, Russia's president, said that Russia would pull back to South Ossetia by Friday.

Read more: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/2008819153459211313.html

[jeff30997]

16. Criminal regime? True!

What's that english expression again? The pot Calling the Kettle Black?

(I'm French-Canadian so...)

[Psephos]

20. And we all know that the French-Canadians treated the native Americans so well

There isn't a country on Earth without bad behavior in its past. According to your way of thinking, condemnation of current violence is thus impossible.

So let's just shrug our shoulders and look the other way. :eyes:

Fallacies such as those are usually covered in the first week of an introductory logic course.

[jeff30997]

21. Where do I say to look the other way?

The Russian and the Georgian government are both corrupted scums.And what the French-Canadian did

to the natives doesn't even compare to what the U.S has done.

The Spanish and Portuguese massacred a lot of them but the U.S wiped over 70% of them.



George Maciunas American genocide 1967

That was 41 years ago.

Don't try to say that we're in the same category of "past bad behavior" and go back to

introductory logic course,and while your at it take an introductory History course you obviously

need it badly.

[Psephos]

22. lol I know my history...but yours is a different specialty

namely, "self-serving spin"

Now you're trying to say your dirty laundry is a better grade of dirty laundry because it doesn't stink as badly as other people's dirty laundry. ooooooookkkkkkaaaaayyyyy

Look, the entire human race is guilty of treating others atrociously throughout history. There isn't a soul on Earth with clean ancestral lines.

I personally did not harm any native Americans (my relatives weren't even here yet) and I doubt yours did either. Can we set this fourth-grade point aside now, permanently?

What I saw in your first post was the generic brand of smugness that so copiously pollutes these boards. That stuff irks me. I really couldn't care less what patch of Earth you live on. The only moral bona fides you own are those you earn, and if you want to earn some, condemn violence and thuggery where and when they happen, and ease back on the moralizing and fallacious equivalencies.

Can't stand someone who squeals when they get back a little of what they've been so happily dishing out.