N Korea tests weapons on people: BBC

[rooboy]

A program made by Britain's BBC says North Korea is killing political prisoners in experimental gas chambers and testing new chemical weapons on women and children.

Titled Access to Evil and being aired on Sunday, the program features an official North Korean document that says political prisoners are used to test new chemical weapons.

In a statement, the BBC said the documentary included comments by Kwon Hyuk, a new name given to a former military attache at the North Korean embassy in Beijing and chief of management at Prison Camp 22.

Using a drawing, he describes a gas chamber and the victims he says he saw at the prison in the north-east of the secretive communist state, near the Russian border.

"I witnessed a whole family being tested on suffocating gas and dying in the gas chamber. The parents, son and a daughter. The parents were vomiting and dying, but till the very last moment they tried to save kids by doing mouth-to-mouth breathing," he said.

"Normally, a family sticks together (in the gas chamber)... and individual prisoners stand separately around the corners. Scientists observe the entire process from above, through the glass."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1035754.htm

[Jack Rabbit]

1. Discussion on this topic in Foreign Affairs

Please click here.

[burrowowl]

2. So have the U$, UK and France

U$ soldiers in the 50's and 60's were tested as how to survive radiation and fallout.
Of course, this could give Bu$hie a good excuse for bombing them. Many he can use those mini-nukes he's been talking about.

[demdave]

3. The regular North Korean apologists

Nuff said

[Media_Lies_Daily]

5. We don't have any room to talk...

...nuff said.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

4. Here we go again...sounds very similar to the Kuwaiti who tearfully...

...described the death of Kuwaiti babies after Iraqi troops pulled them out of incubators. Later we discovered that the story had been a lie and that the Kuwaiti girl had been the daughter of a Kuwaiti ambassador.

If you want to read about a country that has actually exposed its' citizenry to WMD testing read this article:

Report: Nevada nuclear test fallout reached as far as New York
<http://www.cnn.com/US/9707/25/fallout.furor/>

....or maybe this one:

Declassification of Yields of Nuclear Tests
<http://www.osti.gov/html/osti/opennet/document/press/pc27.html>

....or perhaps this one:

Radioactive I-131 from Fallout
<http://cancer.gov/i131>

[Muddleoftheroad]

6. Of course

North Korea is a great country. It never does ANYTHING wrong. It has sun 24 hours a day. Everybody owns two cars, a mansion and they get waited on by servants from more impoverished nations like Sweden. And the kimchi not only cures everything that ails you, but it is NEVER made from scraps of grass dug desperately from every piece of land in the nation because you are starving.

Or North Korea might be the world's worst example of a thugocracy where millions die of starvation on the altar of their leader's insane personality cult. It might be a nation so screwed up that even their closest ally China doesn't trust them and their perennial enemy Japan might rearm JUST to keep them at bay. Heck it might even be a nation that kidnaps people from nearby neighbors just so it can force them to teach the language. Then, we caught at this little bit of lunacy, it lets THEM go, but holds their children hostage.

Sometimes there is nothing in the news bad ENOUGH to properly characterize a situation. You can't read a news story and fully comprehend the Holocaust or Stalin's reign of terror or Mao's killing of millions. And you can't read a story and really grasp what an insane asylum North Korea has become.

[tkmorris]

7. Therein lies the problem

North Korea may in fact be as bad as you seem to believe. This report may in fact be 100% true.

Or it may be propaganda. I truly wish I knew. I know this much; there are people who are presumably on "our side" who WOULD and COULD make up a story like this, complete with false documents and phony witnesses, simply to stir up passion for action against N. Korea.

It might be true. I dearly hope it isn't. Either way more evidence is needed.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

8. Hasn't North Korea been "starving" for over a decade?

IF they have, how can there be any of them left to threaten their neighbours? Smells like propaganda to me...

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. Yes, it is starving

And various nongovernmental agencies agree on this point. Yes, they have some food and get shipments of aid as well. That food goes to those who are essential to the government -- including the military.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. Why do you think the NK people are starving?...

Could it be the result of 50+ years of sanctions imposed by the UN and enforced by the U. S.?

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. Or could it be

That their leadership spends tons of money on a military (sound familiar) and worries not at all about the common people?

[GreyV]

62. military spending...

"That their leadership spends tons of money on a military (sound familiar) and worries not at all about the common people?"

Sounds like good ole US of A, which has a military budget that surpasses the next... what 4-6 countries put together.

Same goes for Israel which has an annual military budget which almost surpasses the budgets of all Arab nations put together.

Your point is...?

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. Israel and the U.S.

Both of them generally feed their own people. NK does not.

[GreyV]

67. Well...

Well, that's debatable. Nearly 1 in 5 children (more than 12 million) in the U.S. live in poverty. The U.S. child poverty rate is much higher than that of most other industrialized nations. I mean there are European nations with smaller populations than 12 million.

Also, consider the current health care disaster of a system we have. Some of that nearly 500 billion "defense" budget sure would go long way of fixing some these problems. You know, growing and widespread poverty, hunger, unemployment, crime, drug use... you know those tiny and bothersome problems that seem to plague everyday America.

[nodehopper]

41. not so one-sided

North Korea is starving because it is ruled by a dictator who, unlike Saddam Husein, never cared about feeding his people, so you can't make the same sanctions argument that would apply to Iraq. When relationshs with South Korea thawed during the beginning of the Sunshine Policy, Kim Jong Il received billions from their neighbour in subsidies for food aid. He spent it all on lavish receptions and his elite army. This has happenned every time he received aid or subsidies from abroad.

[GreyV]

61. North Koreans?

They are starving, oppressed, and miserable ...so we should invade a la Iraqi style, kill hundreds of thousands (several million in a possible nuclear exchange?)? This would help how?

Neoconservative minds never cease to surprise me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. I agree

Invading is a stupid idea. That doesn't mean we have to help prop up the thugocracy either.

[Romulus Quirinus]

66. North Korea

This is a problem near to my heart. Here is a website run by a good man seeking to peacefully help the people of North Korea. There are also numerous articles and studies documenting the horror of life there.

There is nothing liberal about North Korea.

http://www.freenorthkorea.net

[thebigidea]

9. we eagerly anticipate your part in the heroic liberation

or at least the relentless cheerleading from a comfy chair if they get their eventual war.

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. I don't want a war

But I would love to see Krazy Kim collapse and have his nation freed from his yoke.

[thebigidea]

13. Gosh, why does Iraq get liberated but not North Korea, Davey?

Kim gassed his own people!

he harbors weapons of mass destruction-related program activities!

How could you not want WAR, glorious WAR?

We must insure that the flames of freedom are ignited, and re-ignited, and never PUT OUT in North Korea. We must burn them to the ground with our love of Freedom.

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. I didn't want that war either

There's a lot we can do short of war and that we should have done with Iraq as well.

But Kim il Jung is a dictator, there is no doubt about that. And I can't stand such, at home or abroad.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. More sanctions? More starving people? More deaths on the hands of...

...the U. S. government, regardless of party affiliation?

Please share with us your ideas on what else we can do to "persuade" people living in other countries to remove leaders/governments our government doesn't like.

[thebigidea]

25. regime change comes in many wonderful designer colors

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. Yep, regime change

I don't care if NK doesn't like us, but Krazy Kim doesn't like his own people either.

Sanctions can entail a lot of things -- most notably NOT helping. There are millions or even billions of starving people in the world. We can't help them all. I prefer to help those who don't threaten us with nuclear fire. How about sending our food and other aid to Africa instead.

[thebigidea]

30. Regime Change... the choice of Dicks the world over!

[Muddleoftheroad]

39. So you support the thugocracy?

Me, I oppose dictators wherever they wallow.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. Why don't you start with the occupant of the White House...

...who is a FAR greater danger to the world than Kim will ever be?

As a matter of fact, I don't see much in your posts that would indicate that you believe Junior to be even the slightest problem to the American people or the world in general.

Why don't you tell us what you think of Junior and the rest of the NeoCons before we discuss North Korea's supposed threat to world peace? Take your time...we'll wait.

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. I don't support him either

Which is why I am here.

As for my posts, sorry I didn't realize I had to clear them with you first.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. I don't guess you know that we've had sanctions in place against NK...

...since the end of the Korean War. Those sanctions have produced millions of deaths by starvation/lack of medicine without a single move in North Korea toward regime change. Cuba is in the same boat...sanctions have been imposed on Cuba since Castro came to power and began talking with the Soviets after we turned them down for the aide they needed.

IMHO, life-threatening sanctions do little more than make more enemies for the U. S. in the future.

At what point in time will people in the U. S. come to the conclusion that the tactics of "sanctions" and "regime change" simply do not work?

Just curious, but can you name one country that bowed to the effects of U. S. imposed sanctions?

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. Not exactly

There has been lots of food aid sent. There is still trade. Neither should occur.

Should South Korea wish to do so, I have no problem with that. Assuming that they would have no problem with American troops coming home from that neck of the woods.

Again, we can't feed the world. We don't have the money or food to do so. Why not feed those nations who need it and DON'T threaten to nuke the U.S.?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

46. Nobody's talking about "sending" NK anything!....

Are you having trouble with basic reading comprehension?

The only thing I've stated in opposition to your apparent view of letting the North Koreans starve is exactly WHO started the sanctions against NK in the first place, and WHO is enforcing those sanctions now. Do you somehow see something different in my posts, or are you just making it up as you go along?

The sanctions are the root of NK's inabilty to feed their own people, and infrequent shipments of food has done very little to feed those North Koreans who need the food the most.

Why not lift the sanctions and allow the North Koreans the ability to feed themselves? We don't have to send them anything at all.

Am I making myself even more clear than I was before, or do I need to fax you a picture?

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. No trouble here

North Koreans will starve, frankly no matter what we do. Shipping food to them means that food will only be used to prop up the psycho regime of Krazy Kim and go not to those who need it, but to the military.

I would rather send that food, that medicine, that aid to places that don't threaten to nuke us as North Korea has done.

The sanctions are the result of that fun little excursion the North Koreans made down south about 50 years ago. Their continued warmongering behavior and aggressive acts have ensured the continuation of sanctions.

North Korea's leadership should have a choice. Continue being a pariah and have no contact with the rest of the civilized nations. Or join the world and get aid.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

52. Again, you demonstrate no basic reading comprehension ....

...on the subject of sending aid, because you continue to try to put words into my posts.

Good luck in future discussions...personally, you're not worth the time and effort.

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. Wow, what a fun attitude

You and I disagree on the need for sanctions. I am not putting words into your mouth. You think sanctions are bad. I think they are needed.

'Nuff said.

[jmowreader]

60. Kim il Sung died in the 1980s

Kim Jong Il, son of Kim il Sung, is now NK's dictator.

Kim Jong Il worried me on a professional level for about ten years. He still worries me, but watching his ass is no longer my job.

Kim Jong Il was de facto ruler of the DPRK many years before Kim il Sung died. They called KiS the Great Leader and KJI the Dear Leader. The Dear Leader used to say that when his dad died, he was going to bury him in Seoul. Naturally, we translated that to mean "when his dad dies, he'll invade South Korea." We should all feel fortunate that July 8, the day Kim Il Sung died, is a bad day to cross the Han River in a tank.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. At what cost? Millions dead? If you were in charge, how would you...

...deal with North Korea?

Post your gameplan so that we can all see the obvious brilliance of your thinking on this subject.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. For starters

I would cut off ALL aid and any possible trade. It is a pariah nation, let it be so. There are millions of starving people elsewhere we can help and we can't help them all. So I would prefer to help those who don't live in a nation that threatens nuclear devastation.

Perhaps, over time, Kim would come to his senses.

Either way, we can't stop them from getting nukes and I don't advocate war to do so because it would be horrendous.

[thebigidea]

31. unless the threat of nuclear devastation is meant in a Peaceful way, eh?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. So, you advocate the killing of millions of innocent people because...

...you don't like the style of government? A country filled with millions of innocent people becomes a "pariah nation" because you personally don't like Kim?

That IS what you're advocating when you express support for cutting off food, medicine, and other humanitarian aide...you do know that, don't you?

Interesting. Very sad, but interesting nonetheless.

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. No

I just don't advocate helping them. We have a limited amount of help we can deliver. I urge us to do so, in other parts of the globe. Africa is high on my list.

There is no reason we should prop up a thug regime that threatens to nuke us. To do so is not only stupid, it's dangerous.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

50. Speaking of "thug regimes", why don't you tell us what you think about...

...current occupants of the centers of U. S. government?

Again, you seem to have a basic reading comprehension problem. I've said nothing about "helping" the North Koreans in any way.

I've stated repeatedly that the sanctions have been long-term and devastating to the North Korean people resulting in millions of deaths.

You support the sanctions, so therefore is it not logical to assume that you also support the deaths of millions of innocent North Koreans who have no way to change their current political situation?

I'm very interested in reading your next response...should be very enlightening.

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Removing the sanctions is helping them

I support much stronger sanctions. Yes, letting go of sanctions is indeed "helping" North Korea. I am against doing so without prior action by their nation. In the meantime, our aid and support should go to nations that DON'T threaten to nuke our cities.

And I already responded to the question of moron boy.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

58. He hates North Korea, for starving their people...

even though that came about as a result of environmental disasters, including massive flooding in 1995, and at least one major drought since. But look at what SOUTH Korea did:

Only 17 percent of the land in South Korea is considered arable (World Bank 2003a). Most farms in South Korea are small, on the average about one hectare (approx. 2.5 acres). In 2001, farm households typically earned more than 50 percent of their income from non-farm sources (USDA/ERS 2003b). Population growth and increasing urbanization have encroached upon farmland and increased demand for agricultural products. Although the Korean government has sought food self-sufficiency, over half of South Korea’s food is imported (USDA/ERS 2002). In the late 1980s, South Korea experienced an agricultural crisis as farm households struggled to maintain adequate income to cover rising debt burdens for modern farm machinery, consumer goods, and other expenses. The Korean government implemented a series of programs to improve rural living conditions and narrow the income gap between rural and urban residents. These measures included maintaining restrictions against the import of beef, rice, and other agricultural products that would compete against the products of South Korea’s debt-burdened farmers. Farmers’ associations and other groups pressured the government to maintain these import barriers, but negotiations related to Korea’s continued access to world markets under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) and other agreements eventually led to the liberalization of most agricultural imports (Library of Congress n.d.: South Korea).
http://www.asiakan.org/korea/korea_ag_intro.shtml

So, apparently, suffering floods and droughts is the fault of the government and should result in them being starved into submission, but INTENTIONALLY destroying local agriculture in order to comply with free trade agreements is just good business!

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Dictatorship, no freedom, money only spent on military

Threatening to nuke our cities, etc.

Lots of reasons to hate the North Korean regime.

[NickB79]

65. Only problem is, NK would regard that as an act of war

They've already stated that any all-out embargo of their nation would be considered an act of war. Then, kiss Seoul goodbye, watch NK invade, and see the 35,000 US troops we have there either killed or taken prisoner. Any attempt at a counter-invasion of the Korean penisula invites a nuclear counter-strike against a US carrier group, a US base of operations should we establish a foothold, or a Japanese city. Wonderful plan ya got there.

[Muddleoftheroad]

68. Giving in to threats is a foolish way to govern

Every nation with armies can make threats. Do we do what each and every one of them wants us to do?

No. We are under no obligation to aid North Korea. And since they have threatened out cities with nukes, we would be foolish to prop up their petty little dictatorship.

They might bluster all they want, but the reality is that Krazy Kim will not survive as a leader in a war with the U.S. He knows this.

And, if you note my post elsewhere in the thread, they also know that invading will result in a less than limited response.

Nations will continue to make threats as long as they get away with it. Once he realizes that we have no interest in aiding him, supplying him, trading with him or having any of our allies do the same, he will realize that he pushed too far.

[NickB79]

69. "Krazy Kim" says it all

How can you talk about logical reasoning on Kim's part when you yourself consider him crazy? Launching nukes sounds like a crazy idea to me, and Kim appears to be just crazy enough to do it. He would know that a war with the US would destroy his position of authority, but then so would a successful embargo. Since he's treated his people so horribly over all these years, why do you think he wouldn't let them all die in a war to keep himself in power?

This whole standoff sounds very much like the Cuban Missile Crisis. Two nations, both with nuclear weapons, almost started a war that would have killed millions. One nation embargoed the other, and threats of war are spoken. Luckily, cooler heads prevailed in the end, but there we had two highly competent, intelligent leaders on either side of the conflict that were able to pull us back from the edge. Here, we have "Krazy Kim" vs. G.W. Bush. Wow.

[Mountainman]

12. OK then we need to invade them preemtively, they kill their own

We need to speak out against the killing innocent people everywhere but let's not make the mistake in North Korea that we are making in Iraq. Our country cannot be the policemen of the world.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

23. Don't forget that we're still in Afghanistan and continuing to take...

...casualties for reasons that are becoming increasingly more vague with each passing day.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

17. Nice try to put words in my post...

...but even a complete flaming idiot can see the tactics used by the NeoCons to demonize the countries they intend to invade and/or intimidate. They've used them on Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Indonesia, Pakistan, Canada, Mexico, France, Germany, Russia, North Korea, China, Venezuela, and others too numerous to mention.

Try actually reading my posts in the future before you leap to your own preconceived conclusions about what you believe other posters are thinking.

By the way...skip the sermon next time. If I want to hear one of those, I'll go to church.

[Tripper11]

14. Considering N. Korea's past

and the insanity of their little dictator. The fact that they claim to have nuclear weaponry, and now this, my first thought, I don't know why was that they WANT America to attack.
The reason they want this is so that after America destroys half the country and kills hundreds, maybe thousands of innocent citizens is so they will get funds for rebuilding from the rest of the world.
We all know how desperately they need food, clothing, shelter and money there. Please don't flame me, this was my first though, simply a gut reaction.

[thebigidea]

15. brilliant plan! We'll get nearly murdered then collect the insurance money

[Tripper11]

16. Hey...strange times....

and as I'm sure you are aware, N. Korea is definitely one weird section of our planet.
Were they not just starting to get some aid a few years back?

[thebigidea]

18. and wouldn't it make more sense to bluff for the aid?

rather than actually go to war, get decimated, and possibly overthrown?

[Fovea]

22. So to sum up...

1. WMD ... Check
2. Evil Dictator who kills large numbers of own citizens in
horrid and disgusting ways... Check.
3. Nukular weapons and missiles... Check.
4. In original Axis of Evil(tm)... Check.
5. Large Oil Reserves... ooops.

Sorry, no need to rescue the hapless and suffering
Koreans. Nothing to see here.... Move along!

[Tripper11]

24. Exactly!

Thanks realpolitik.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. More "summing up"...

1. WMD: Nuc/Bio/Chem...check
2. Evil dictator intent on global domination...check
3. Able to invade other countries at will...check
4. Large oil reserves...check
5. No competitors in the Super Power category...check
6. Kills large numbers of people in foreign countries...check

Hmmm. Wonder who THAT could be?

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. To sum up

They already HAVE WMD. Or it's a damn good chance. That sort of makes invading them pretty tough.

[Tripper11]

32. Yeah when they are an actual threat! n/t

[oneighty]

35. Having been in N Korea

in 1952 I can assure you WMDs are not necessary to put a major hurting on our sons and daughters we might foolishly put there. I would not wish that journey on any one for any reason. Only a fool would go there on purpose.
180

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. I agree

Don't they have about a million men in their army? Lord knows, that's where Krazy Kim puts most of his resources.

[oneighty]

45. Or maybe it is the weather

And food and shelter and water and fanatics-on both sides.

180

[chasqui]

55. We would get annihilated if it gets conventional

We do not have a large enough army to contain the millions they would probably send across the DMZ.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Seoul is within artillery range of the DMZ, and only god knows what NK may have stashed in their artillery shells.
It would be a disaster.

[Muddleoftheroad]

56. It would never be conventional

No U.S. president would consign 30,000 American troops to death and that would happen in an invasion. If North Korea ever crosses the border heading south, their soldiers will be nuked. Possibly their cities as well.

Not taking a position on that one way or another. Just a fact.

[TeeYiYi]

34. Looks like they're taking a page out of the USA playbook . . .

Terrorism Self Help Archives
A History of Secret Human Experimentation

http://www.askwaltstollmd.com/archives/terror/125961.html

TYY

[maggrwaggr]

43. unfortunately nobody believes this kind of stuff anymore

thanks to Bush and Cheney lying and crying wolf, even if something like this is true, nobody's gonna believe it.

It's really sad.

[daleo]

57. There have been too many lies

As another poster said, how can we believe any convenient claims of atrocities anymore:

- babies thrown from incubators
- tons of VX, bio-weapons, etc.

The government has already admitted that its intelligence agencies can't be trusted, so why should we trust this. And we do know now that political refugees from regimes will tell western intelligence whatever they want to hear, especially unnamed persons or persons with new names.

I have come to the conclusion that the more lurid the claim (e.g. cannibalism) the more likely it is to be propaganda. This claim has Hitler imagery to the nth degree, so I will remain skeptical.

Today's newspaper had a claim by North Korea that the U.S. had done hundreds of spy overflights in January 2004, which a U.S. official did not confirm, but did not deny either. Add in this kind of story, and you can see the PNAC wheels turning.