Muslim woman refused French citizenship for her 'submissive' views

[emad]

Source: telegraph

Last Updated: 7:47PM BST 11/07/2008
France has refused to grant citizenship to a burqa-wearing Moroccan woman on the grounds that her "radical" interpretation of Islam is incompatible with its values.

The legal ruling, which has just been published, is the first time a Muslim applicant had been rejected by France due to their religious practices.

The unnamed 32-year-old woman is married to a French national. She arrived in the country in 2000, speaks good French and her three children were born in the country.

She wears a black burqa that covers all her body except her eyes, which are visible through a narrow slit, and lives in "total submission" to her husband and male relatives, according to reports by social services.


Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/2287476/Muslim-woman-refused-French-citizenship-for-her-%27submissive%27-views.html

---

Chances are she's just scared, expresses herself inadequately and is in awe of the French citizenship bureaucracy machine...

[depakid]

1. There are several women just like this in Beaverton Oregon

I see them at the Winco grocery, fully covered in black burkas that have lace over the eyeslits. They shuffle meekly behind their husbands through the aisles, never saying a word.

Pretty creepy, actually.

[emad]

2. Plenty here in London supermarkets too.

Maybe some of them strive to look deliberately scary just to keep the menfolk in line....

[marshall]

10. Some of them could BE menfolk for all we know

Doesn't Michael Jackson have a penchant for wearing burqa like garments to protect his privacy? Who knows how many others take advantage of the hidden nature of the outfits.

[pennylane100]

3. They should let her

if she agrees to watch all the episodes of Sex in the City. Maybe then she will realize how narrow her world is and want to change.

[KatyaR]

4. Are you kidding?

That would probably scare her to death.

[undeterred]

11. No, dig up "Married with Children" and "Roseanne"

Show her married life in the USA.

[JVS]

88. Don't advocate torture at DU

[awoke_in_2003]

5. Good for France...

when you start giving special treatment to any religious group it becomes a mess. In france it is Islam, here it is christianity. And look where it has gotten us.

[High Plains]

42. Special treatment? What special treatment?

It looks like France discriminated against this woman on the basis of her religious beliefs. She is not accused of being a terrorist or a threat to national security, just of believing the wrong thing. I think this is not a good decision.

[awoke_in_2003]

49. From the article

""She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind," she wrote. "

Refusing to assimilate into a culture is not a good way to gain citizenship. Her male relatives should be expelled, too. If you want to live the sharia lifestyle, do it in a sharia nation not a secular one.

[High Plains]

51. Still, what special treatment?

She is asking for none as far as I can tell.

She is not accused of advocating for sharia law. She is not accused of doing anything except of following her own beliefs. She is not accused of "refusing to assimilate."

She is married to a French citizen. Should he be expelled, too, for having the "wrong" beliefs?

As the Telegraph article stated, some see this as an overreaction by the French state. I tend to agree with that position.

[pnwmom]

71. She was accused of not being "assimilated enough."

According to the article, France has a strong belief in the equality of the sexes, which she obviously does not support.

[The Croquist]

92. So I guess you are against English as a second language too.

She has the rest of her life to grow. By the way, your idea of "right" isn't necessarily the only way.

[awoke_in_2003]

94. No, I am not against English as a second language

in fact, I wish that a large population of this area would strive to make it their second language, instead of absolutely refusing to learn it. I know people who have been here their entire life that cannot speak it. If I emigrate to Germany, should I refuse to learn the language?

[LeftishBrit]

98. I think all immigrants should have to learn the language of their new country...

but I think in some cases it's not refusal, but lack of adequate second-language teaching being made available. Language-learning is one of the biggest keys to integration and success in a new country, and well worth the investment of resources on the country's part, and effort on the immigrant's part.

'If I emigrate to Germany, should I refuse to learn the language?'

No. But I bet plenty of English-speakers think they should and that it's the other country's job to speak English (I have to admit that the British are particularly bad that way).

[awoke_in_2003]

99. I brought up Germany

because one part of my family integrated here 4 generations ago. They moved to a German community for support, but absolutely tried to learn the language. The community pulled together and got the resources they needed to learn the language. My grandfather told me he would get smacked if he tried to speak german, his parents insisted that English be spoken in the house. You have a good point, though, when you say "but lack of adequate second-language teaching being made available". We do a poor job of helping people along. Classes like these should be provided free of cost to those who wish to take advantage of it.

[pnwmom]

68. France has a very strong belief in secularism.

I don't think they'd want people of any religion who couldn't accept that.

[awoke_in_2003]

95. Thank you

as I have said, if you cannot accept the ways of the country you are emigrating to, you might as well stay where you are.

[ohio2007]

6. China sees it that way with the Olympics nearing. Seems they are not welcome in their own country

Terror threat to Games: China shuts mosques

BEIJING: Chinese authorities have replaced top police and security officials in the Muslim dominated Xinjiang province, which is the hotbed of separatism and political violence. They have also closed down 41 "illegal" places of worship.

These places of worship were used as training ground for conducting a "holy war", Chen Zhuangwei Chen, the police chief of Urumqi, capital of the Xinjiang province, said. Xinjiang, which borders central Asia and Pakistan, has been the scene of a pro-independence movement by a section of the eight million Uighurs living there for a long time.
The authorities also announced they have detained 82 "suspected terrorists" in the past six months in view of fears that they might disrupt the Olympic Games
snip
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/China_closes_41_illegal_mosques/articleshow/3220173.cms

ie

there is a lot more to the French story then a woman in a burka

[High Plains]

43. "There's a lot more to the French story..."

Do tell.

[LeftishBrit]

61. Mmm, considering China's general record on civil liberties...

I wouldn't necessarily take their word on such issues.

[Moloch]

7. Good.

Western Europe really needs to stop accepting so many immigrants who are fundamentalists. They're already responsible for a huge upsurge in violence and there is NO place for sharia law in a democracy.

[emad]

8. I agree about fundie nutters finding refuge and getting $$$ state handouts

in Europe.

Holland and the UK have a big problem with extremists whose public agenda is the formation of a Caliphate.

Scary.

[ohio2007]

15. A man can have four wives in the UK and have the government support his children with welfare funds

..what a racket that is.


And if one or more wives need to be 'disciplined, well the English judges are in the mans court ;)


snip
The most senior judge in England has declared that Islamic legal principles in Sharia law may be used within Muslim communities in Britain to settle marital arguments and regulate finance.

Lord Chief Justice Lord Phillips said, "Those entering into a contractual agreement can agree that the agreement shall be governed by a law other than English law."

snip
The Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organization (IKWRO), an umbrella group of activists who work in Muslim countries to liberate women from the dark side of this oppressive force, according to Womensphere.wordpress.com, identifies Sharia family law as the fundamental basis for discrimination against women in the Muslim world, including communities in the United Kingdom.

Here are just some of the "benefits" British Muslim women can look forward to if Sharia law replaces English law:



snip




http://www.saukvalley.com/articles/2008/07/11/opinion/columnists/afeef6c1ac6844d064926e4bb45c3c44.txt

[LeftishBrit]

50. This has become garbled in the telling..

First of all, nobody has suggested that Sharia law could *replace* English law. The argument of some people is that Sharia courts might make some decisions at a lower level (e.g. minor financial disputes between Muslims) but any such decision is trumped by the law of the land.

In fact, once one accepts the law of the land as dominant, I don't think that one can actively prevent *any* body, whether it be a Sharia court, a trade union committee, or the local darts club from making judgements about specific situations. So long as British law reigns over everything else, and can trump any decision made by another individual or group, that's what counts. Only three per cent of British citizens are Muslim, and not all of these are strongly religious, so there's no way that Muslim laws are going to become part of British law as a whole.

'A man can have four wives in the UK and have the government support his children with welfare funds'

One judge made that ruling in a particular case, but it's not general policy. And to make it clear: people aren't allowed to marry more than one wife in the UK. The question is whether immigrants who already have more than one wife on entry to Britain can get benefits for the 'extra' wives and kids. Most people are against this policy: the right because they don't like immigrants anyway; the left because we realize that officially recognized polygamy and welfare states don't mix (because of such anomalies), and we'd like to keep our welfare state! So it will not IMO be ultimately accepted. BTW, British law as a whole is rather good; British judges as individuals tend to be idiots!

[Spouting Horn]

74. Have you ever head the story

about the camel, his nose, and a tent?

[ChazII]

79. A great story

and one that should be read often. Thanks for the reminder. Our second grade reading book had that story back in the 80's. France made the right decision.

[Politicub]

9. Sometimes religion comes into conflict with the state

And I think in this case, the state was right.

[JeanGrey]

12. I really find this rather surprising considering that France is

overrun with Muslims anyway? Why would they refuse since they have such a large population? Or is that why?

[pitohui]

13. france is a secular country and would like to leave it that way

there are muslims out there who don't hate women and don't keep them in black burqas, imagine that!

if your religion causes you to hate women to such an extent that their face and body is an obscenity to be forever veiled and to set that example for your own children, you are not a desirable immigrant to any decent country in my view

[ohio2007]

14. The ruling comes weeks after a heated debate over whether traditional Muslim views were creeping int

....The ruling comes weeks after a heated debate over whether traditional Muslim views were creeping into French law, prompted by a court's annulment of the marriage of two Muslims because the husband said the wife was not a virgin as she had claimed to be.

....


It's the mini enclaves in Paris that may erupt and start torching French cars if they feel their unassimilated asses are being 'disenfranchised' from what they feel is their basic human right to impose freedom of thought control over their women folk.

[keroro gunsou]

16. wouldn't that be...

disenfrenchized?

sorry, i couldn't help myself.

[Flagg]

38. It's their own cars and those of their neighbors they are torching

and I assure you, they are as partial to peugeot and renault as they are to Ford or Volkswagen.
And they don't burn cars because of women but because they are actually being discriminated against and because two 15 year olds were killed by the police.

It has nothing to with how Islamic they are. If americans want to believe that, they are wrong.

[Flagg]

37. France is very far from being overrun with muslims

where do you get your French news, exactly ? Faux ?

[JeanGrey]

39. No I have read several major news items that say by 2015 or 2020

one in three in France will be Muslim. I would call that overrun, wouldn't you? France has the largest Muslim population in Europe I understand, with close to ten million muslims out of 65 million now, with that population to explode in the next ten to twenty years. One in ten in France identify with Muslim. This being the case I am surprised they are trying this, I don't think it will go anywhere.

[Flagg]

40. Major news item from where ?

Let's hear it.
The highest estimates only speak of 10% muslims in France. And that's the very highest.
And were not talking about 10% of terrorsit, islamic extremist intolerant either.
Most muslims in France are hard working citizens and peaceful.

And why would that population explode exactly ? Because muslims breed like bunnies, I suppose.
Do you have the statistical proof of that "explosion".
Because I don't want to to burst your bubble but the US media hasn't been exactly fair and balanced about France those past few years.


Estimates of the number of Muslims in France vary widely. A poll released in 2007 placed it at 3% of the population,<1> while in 2006 the U.S. Department of State placed it at about 10%.<2> The CIA World Factbook places it at 5-10%.<3> In 2000, the French Ministry of the Interior estimated the total number of people born into Islam as 4.1 million and converts as about 40,000. Estimates of numbers of Muslims, and the alleged dangers in the housing projects of the suburbs by the Renseignements Généraux, the intelligence agency, have often been criticized. Critics in particular are the Monde diplomatique and the Canard Enchaîné.

A study conducted by Michèle Tribalat, a researcher at INED, and based on 1999 French census returns, showed that claims of 5 to 6 million Muslims in France were largely exaggerated. According to the census returns, there are only 3.7 million people of "possible Muslim faith" in France (6.3% of the total population of Metropolitan France in 1999).<4> These 3.7 million people whose ancestry is from countries where Islam is the dominant faith may or may not be observant Muslims themselves.

Nationalist and far-right organisations have often been hostile to the spread of Islam in France (as elsewhere in Europe).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_France

[JeanGrey]

45. Because Muslims "breed like bunnies"? Wow, that is

pretty insulting you need to work on that! I meant no disrespect to anyone Muslim. I'm sorry you didn't like my post, but the Muslim population in France and Europe overall is increasing steadily.

[Flagg]

57. err, that was sarcasm

obviously if, as you assert, the muslim population in France is to "explode" then muslims must be breeding at a much faster rate than other folks since massive emigraion of muslims to France has all but stopped in recent years.

But since you seem to be such an expert on France, I'm sure you already knew that.

[JeanGrey]

69. Oh I don't think you are interested in civil discourse at all.

[Flagg]

77. no, just in facts

[LeftishBrit]

58. One in three?

I have never heard this suggested as a possibility by anyone - certainly within this time-scale!

I just checked and found that a 2007 survey indicated that 4% of French people identify themslves as Muslims, as compared with 51% who identify as Catholic, and about 30% as atheist or agnostic. How the percentage could increase from 4% to 33% within 7 to 13 years, is beyond me. Especially as the rate of Muslim immigration to France is going down, not up.

Where did you get this information; and are you sure that the source wasn't at rather too few degrees of separation from LePen? France does have its RW nuts.

[JeanGrey]

70. I saw several major articles that claimed this - it was a while

back but they definitely did.

[Flagg]

78. links ?

Let's what reputable sources stated that a third of France would muslim in 2015.


Or I would have to conclude that you have fallen prey to the whole Eurabia myth.

[cigsandcoffee]

17. Muslim woman deemed too submissive to be French

Source: Reuters

PARIS (Reuters) - France has denied citizenship to a veiled Moroccan woman on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam is incompatible with basic French values such as equality of the sexes, a legal ruling showed on Friday.

The case will reignite debate about how to reconcile freedom of religion, which is guaranteed by the French constitution, and other fundamental rights, which many in France feel are being challenged by the way of life of some Muslims.

Le Monde newspaper said it was the first time a Muslim applicant had been rejected for reasons to do with personal religious practice.

"She has adopted a radical practice of her religion, incompatible with essential values of the French community, particularly the principle of equality of the sexes," said a ruling by the Council of State handed down last month and sent to Reuters on Friday to confirm a report in Le Monde.

Read more: http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKL1173478020080711?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

[Doctor Cynic]

18. But will she submit to je ne sais quoi? n/t

[uppityperson]

19. "I don't know what" What?

Or "that little something"? What?
Will she submit to I don't know what? Huh, doesn't work.
Will she submit to that little something I can't define? Nope.
I am stumped.

[NutmegYankee]

20. Seems reasonable

I'd expect someone wishing to become a citizen of a country to reflect or honor the principles of that country. It would be like allowing someone who is completely opposed to democracy and concepts like free speech to become a citizen of the US. Granting Citizenship is up to each country.

As for the Asshats who don't support these values, but were born here, well, were stuck with them.

[Jack_DeLeon]

28. I also agree...

[riverdale]

35. Fixed

... like allowing someone who is completely opposed to democracy and concepts like free speech to become a President of the US.

[NutmegYankee]

41. I tried, Twice. n/t

[tpsbmam]

56. Hmmmmmm......

"It would be like allowing somene who is completely opposed to democracy and concepts like free speech to become a citizen of the US." Can we then revoke the citizenship granted by birth of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc etc? Please say yes, if even to appease me! :P

[sasquatch]

21. I'll allow it

[McCamy Taylor]

22. Merde. What about S&M? The French practice that like everyone else.

Are they going to take away the citizenship of the men and women who get off on being humiliated and abused? Europe is full of anti-Muslim bigotry.

[countmyvote4real]

23. This is a slippery slope, n'est-ce pas? n/t

[progdonkey]

27. there's a difference in scope...

Bondage practitioners get a personal sexual rush from either being humiliated or doing the humiliating, but it's completely personal. A woman who is submissive in the BDSM sense doesn't necessarily believe that all women are beneath men, just she is below her "master" (or he below his mistress). A woman who takes part in bondage games can still hold and vote for feminist (and any other) political positions because bedroom games are different from political action and citizen participation in government.

Here we have a woman who isn't submissive because she personally enjoys it for sexual gratification (and after all, doing something purely for sexual gratification couldn't be more "French," eh? :-) ), but because she truly believes that all women must be submissive to all men. When it comes time to engage in the political process, that is how she'll vote, which basically means whoever her husband is will have two votes. Or she won't even vote, because she believes that women don't have the right to participate as citizens.

And it isn't anti-Muslim, it's anti-crazy-religion. If they let equally crazy Christians in, then you'd have a point, but right now it's just a matter of rejecting people on the grounds that their religious beliefs are just too anti-democratic, and I could give a rat's ass about religious fundamentalists and their feelings. Furthermore, if these people love their religion so much, why the hell do they want to go to evil secular France in the first place? Saudi Arabia (or Iraq, Iran, etc.) should be paradise to them, and if it isn't, then why are they still holding on to the faith that is the basis of the country that they don't want to live in? If they have to go to secular France for work, why isn't their Muslim homeland able to provide?

[Growler]

29. Great post!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

24. I have no problem with this

there is nothing wrong with a secular civilized society telling the religiously insane to get the fuck out.

I, a militantly secular jew wouldn't expect to be welcome in Saudi Arabia, why should she expect to be welcome in France?

[galledgoblin]

25. on one hand, it's dangerous not to recognize religious freedom

on another, I feel deeply uncomfortable seeing women who are completely covered walk by, submitting to their husbands.

on another (hey, where did that come from?)
"She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind," Emmanuelle Prada-Bordenave wrote."

THAT seals it for me. if she's been living in France for 8 years and still does not know the basic rights she's asking for, then there is a problem.

does France have basic citizenship civics classes? she needs to be taught by an outside influence. if she learns all her rights, then she should be allowed citizenship. she'd likely still be Muslim and even a conservative Muslim, but I doubt she'd be quite as submissive.

"Le Monde quoted Daniele Lochak, a law professor not involved in the case, as saying it was bizarre to consider that excessive submission to men was a reason not to grant citizenship.

"If you follow that to its logical conclusion, it means that women whose partners beat them are also not worthy of being French," Lochak said."

I would somewhat go that far, except it blames the victim. the BEATER and the men who have forced this woman into complete pathetic submissiveness DON'T deserve to be citizens of ANY nation.

[Matteon]

26. Seriously

She got the better end of the deal.

[girl gone mad]

30. In what parallel universe?

[Enthusiast]

31. Yeah! In what parallel universe? Bizarro world? nt

[no_hypocrisy]

32. Isn't being too submissive a requirement for citzenship in Boosh's Amerika?

[Quantess]

36. Nope. But being too dumb to realize you were a chump for voting for BUSH in 2004

Makes you an irredeeemable jackass.

[DeSwiss]

33. Vive La France!!!

- K&R!!!

[Quantess]

34. Vive le France!

:party: :toast: :thumbsup:

[High Plains]

44. Wow, these are a bunch of disturbing comments.

This woman, who is married to a Frenchman, lives in France, and has French chidren is being denied citizenship becaue of her religious beliefs? And DUers are supporting this?

Am I missing something? Is she a member of Al Qaeda? Is she a terrorist? Does she even participate in politics?

One does not have to be an advocate for Islam to support people's right to worship as they believe. Or is religious freedom only for Episcopalians or something?

[ohio2007]

46. How about an american practicing his freedom of religion due to lack of submission

Yes High Plains, you are missing something here;

Pakistani charged with killing daughter

NEW YORK, July 11: A Pakistani immigrant of Jonesboro, Georgia, who strangled his daughter because she wanted to end her arranged marriage did it because she “would disgrace the family”, a news report said on Friday, citing an arrest warrant.

According to Atlanta Journal Constitution, Chaudhry Rashid told police he was Muslim and that extra-marital affairs were against his religion. That’s why he killed her, the Clayton County arrest warrant says.

In court this week Rashid said: “I have done nothing wrong.”

snip


http://www.dawn.com/2008/07/12/top13.htm


she's dead....his honor is restored........
Any muslim court would see it that way :crazy:

[High Plains]

54. Gee, I didn't realize that woman in France was involved.

Oh, she wasn't.

You know, if I were as obsessed with hating Christianity as you as with hating Islam, I could easily Google a whole raft of insane Christains doing stupid shit. But I'm not obsessed, and I'm not willing to smear 1.2 billion Moslems for the actions of a relative handful of nutjobs.

This woman didn't do anything to anybody.

[ohio2007]

90. You've made your point

I could easily Google a whole raft of insane Christan's nonsense also but you are telling women they need to be treated as property to the superior sex ?
I can't see how know that the French woman in question enjoys being treated like a dog,a cat or a pair of shoes or any other peice of property because she has some else do the thinking for her ?
ignorance is bliss


Your defense of the Dred Scott decision is obsurd.

It must be tough defending that knuckle dragger mentality way of life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx9vW6lHDqY&feature=related





what did these girls do to deserve this?
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/magazine/09BRI.html
being born in a backward country ...... like France ?
Be careful what you wish for.

[LeftishBrit]

62. There has recently been in London...

a truly horrific murder of two visiting French students. The chief suspect is a white homeless man. Should all white people be banned from immigrating to America or France because they might commit a murder?

When I was growing up in London, there were several horrific terrorist bombings by the IRA. Should all Catholics be banned from immigrating to America or France because they might be terrorists?

All immigrants should be required to obey their new country's laws; and honour killings should be banned everywhere (contrary to some of the stereotypes, they are by no means exclusive to Muslims). But let's not assume that a Moroccan would-be immigrant to France is in just the same category as a Pakistani immigrant in Canada who committed a horrifying murder, just because they're both Muslims.

[Spouting Horn]

89. Islam itself

does not recognize the concept of the State being separate from religious rule..

Now, there are liberal Muslims who do not take this seriously, and many of them live in the West.

But, a true follower of the Islamic religion cannot possibly be for the separation of Mosque and State, because it would be a direct contradiction of Islamic doctrine.

[LeftishBrit]

100. The fundies of most religions believe in theocracy...

you could (and people like Worldview do!) find Bible quotes to indicate that 'a true follower of the Christian religion cannot possibly be for the separation of Church and State, because it would be a direct contradiction of Christian doctrine'.

It's certainly not the case that most Muslims (or Christians) in the West want to impose theocratic rule on their countries, however.

No doubt many people take the view that you mention in Saudi Arabia and Iran - but not in Britain or France.

[ohio2007]

93. There has recently been in Texas....

a school that explains in great detail the importance of convincing 1/2 the population in believing these truths to be self evident
while
the other 1/2 of the population must submit to these same truths;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3321665139649161651

:crazy: he's right.:crazy:

All women should be treated equally under 'the dress code law'
;) betcha can't watch just one "no child left behind" episode produced by those Texas fundies to understand that freedom of religion actually means freedom FROM religion.


Don't like free speech ? Banish it,censor it and strike it from the books. Become a majority and vote it out of existence


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a66_1206794408


God bless atheism
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=74c_1186155251

[JeanGrey]

47. I think it's awful and I've gotten jumped on as well.

[emad]

48. How many US residents would pass American citizenship requirements

if measured according to the French criteria that has rejected this woman's application?

[depakid]

52. My guess is that 75% wouldn't pass the America's own citizenship test

and that's quite aside from any fundie views.

[closeupready]

60. I agree, the majority of comments to this thread are disgusing.

Then I remember, this is not a liberal board.

[Dutch]

84. Yes the dislike of religious fanaticism and oppression of women shown around here is truly shocking.

:sarcasm:

[LeftishBrit]

53. What is particularly strange about this story...

is that her *husband* (who, I presume, is also an immigrant) had been given French
citizenship, yet she has not. It takes two to create an over-submissive husband/
wife relationship, so on the face of it this seems very unfair and indeed
sexist!

Of course, we may not be hearing the full story; one thing that occurred to me
is that they may suspect that this is a forced marriage; which is certainly
grounds in Britain for refusing someone citizenship, and probably in other
EU countries. But otherwise the story is quite strange.

[struggle4progress]

55. Another trolling Telegraph tale

[emad]

63. Don't be so silly.

France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/12/france.islam

France rejects veiled Muslim wife
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7503757.stm

Burka-wearing woman denied citizenship for being 'submissive'
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Burkawearing-woman-denied-citizenship-for.4282205.jp

No French citizenship for veiled 'radical' Islamic wife
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/no-french-citizenship-for-veiled-radical-islamic-wife-865828.html

Too Muslim To Be French?
TIME - ‎ 8 hours ago ‎
Secularity has been a pillar of France's republican values for over a century. It's the strict privatization of an individual's faith, with the intention of ...

Ruling May Heighten France-Muslim Tension
Wall Street Journal - ‎ 15 hours ago ‎
By DAVID GAUTHIER-VILLARS and STACY MEICHTRY PARIS -- In the latest clash between religion and secular tradition in France, a court has denied citizenship ...

Burka-wearing woman denied citizenship for being 'submissive'
Scotsman - ‎ Jul 11, 2008 ‎
By Susan Bell A MOROCCAN woman who wears a black burka has been denied French citizenship on the grounds she is too submissive. The 32-year-old woman, ...

No French citizenship for veiled 'radical' Islamic wife
Independent - ‎ Jul 11, 2008 ‎
By Matthew Kay in Paris A French court has refused citizenship to a Moroccan woman, ruling that her practice of Islam is too "radical" and she is too ...

France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam
guardian.co.uk - ‎ Jul 11, 2008 ‎
France has denied citizenship to a Moroccan woman who wears a burqa on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam is incompatible with basic French ...

Muslim Woman’s Black Veil 'Incompatible' with French Immigration
FOXNews - ‎ Jul 11, 2008 ‎
A Moroccan woman was denied citizenship in France because her head-to-toe Islamic veil, which shows only her eyes, was "incompatible" with French gender ...

Veiled woman denied citizenship
News24 - ‎ Jul 11, 2008 ‎
Paris - A 32-year-old Moroccan woman married to a Frenchman has been denied French citizenship because of her religious practices, such as wearing a burqa, ...

French put secularism before faith
The National - ‎ 3 hours ago ‎
A young woman wearing a burqa. Mabchour accepted that she did not habitually appear veiled when living in Morocco but had worn the burqa since arriving in ...

French Court: Burqa Wearing Women No Citizenship
PoliGazette - ‎ 10 hours ago ‎
When it comes to Turkey, France is constantly supporting the Islamists of the AK Parti and their reforms. When the headscarf issue was big, ...

France Rejects "Submissive" Muslim Woman
Islam Online - ‎ 10 hours ago ‎
CAIRO — A French court has denied a veiled Muslim woman the French nationality for being "too submissive" to her husband and that her religious rituals were ...

Opinion: France Gets it Right
DigitalJournal.com - ‎ Jul 11, 2008 ‎
France's Council of State has made a choice which requires assimilation into French society to become a French citizen, and denied citizenship to a muslim ...

Muslim woman deemed too submissive to be French
EcoDiario.es - ‎ Jul 11, 2008 ‎
By Estelle Shirbon PARIS (Reuters) - France has denied citizenship to a veiledMoroccan woman on the grounds that her "radical" practice ofIslam is ...

Muslim woman deemed too submissive to be French
Reuters UK - ‎ Jul 11, 2008 ‎
By Estelle Shirbon PARIS (Reuters) - France has denied citizenship to a veiled Moroccan woman on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam is ...

Citizenship denied veiled woman
PRESS TV - ‎ 1 hour ago ‎
A court in France denies citizenship to a Muslim woman and rules that her practice of conservative Islam isn't in line with French values. ...


Are ALL these Trolling Telegraph Tales too?

[struggle4progress]

65. Thanks for the links. Now let us go through a few of them:

The Telegraph makes summary claims without substantiation

The Guardian says:

The legal expert who reported to the Council of State said the woman's interviews with social services revealed that "she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from French society".

The report said: "She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/12/france.islam

The BBC says

Her initial application for French citizenship was rejected in 2005 on the grounds of "insufficient assimilation" into France.

She appealed, and late last month the Conseil d'Etat, France's highest administrative body which also acts as a high court, upheld the decision to deny her citizenship.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7503757.stm

The Independent says

Mme M, who has lived in France since 2000, had asked the court to overturn her failed 2005 citizenship application, which was rejected because of "non-integration". But the court upheld the decision, citing her strict dress code and private life as reasons .

Emmanuelle Prada-Bordenave, the government commissioner who delivered the ruling, said Mme M had presented herself for interviews with immigration officials "attired from head to toe in the clothing of women from the Arabian peninsula, with a veil covering her hair, forehead and chin and a piece of cloth over her face. Her eyes could only be seen through a small slit. She lives virtually as a recluse, disconnected from French society. She has no concept of laïcité <the French doctrine of religious neutrality> nor the right to vote. She lives in total subservience to the men in her family."

Legal experts say Mme M can reapply for nationality if she can prove that "she has assimilated the values of the Republic".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/no-french-citizenship-for-veiled-radical-islamic-wife-865828.html

The objection is that applicant is so completely separate from French society and culture, that she does not even know she has the right to vote; that seems to be a secular objection, though her condition may arise from her religious beliefs

[LeftishBrit]

75. Good points here

This from a few months ago may be relevant.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7005134.stm

It seems that the French now test people's knowledge of French language and culture, as well as their financial 'solvency', before allowing them to immigrate; and that this even applies to family members of citizens.

It is part of Sarkozy's general anti-immigrant policy; but, while it may well be applied selectively to Muslims in practice, it does not seem to be officially concerned with religious issues.

This woman may have failed such a test, due to her general isolation.

Or the incident may reflect the policy of particular officials in a particular area. Or possibly concerns about forced marriage or abuse. There are several possibilities; but I suspect that the story in the Telegraph is a bit garbled.

[closeupready]

59. This is a violation of her human rights, and she should appeal to the EU.

It's discrimination based upon her political beliefs, and to deny her citizenship on that basis is fundamentally wrong. Shame on you here who support this measure.

[Flagg]

64. She should apply for british citizenship

they have no problems with burkas over there

[NuttyFluffers]

66. i routinely defend the freedom of fashion, but here i worry about her legal awareness

i cautiously agree with the French decision here (only knowing what cursory information we get from the article). and i come to this conclusion not by her clothes or the way she chooses to live her relationships -- which in a free society are wholly within her rights to determine amid a roughly "safe, sane, and consensual" legal framework -- but with her disturbing ignorance about how her resident nation conducts its legal affairs and what is her responsibilities and what is within her purview. essentially i am not pleased with her "score" on an awareness test, like that they insist upon resident aliens to pass in order to get citizenship here in USA.

however i admit total ignorance to the French legal process to citizenship, let alone her competency outside of a gov't assessment. perhaps she really is being discriminated against, i do not know how well versed she is in her new land? but from what i can gather she essentially "didn't pass the civics test" to become a citizen. however, if she can pass the civics test and still desires, legally within French framework, decide to live out her fashion and relationship choices, i do worry about the decision here...

[pnwmom]

67. It says that she speaks good French. That's not her problem.

France has a strong belief in secularism. I think they feel she won't make a good citizen.

[krabigirl]

97. And that's just as scary as people in the US thinking you are a bad citizen for not being Christian.

[UndertheOcean]

72. You're in France for pete's sake

show some skin , enjoy your youth , have love , "love " , not sex .... before you are all wrinkled up and weak.

What a waste of womanhood , what a waste of humanity.

They should take her away from her abusive environment and "unbrain wash " her , thats the best thing the state can do .

[closeupready]

73. Well, I don't know about that.

?? Maybe if the French Catholics knew how to wash themselves, you'd have a point.

[Fumesucker]

80. Stereotype much? n/t

[closeupready]

82. Um, no, not really. n/t

[Flagg]

81. ethnic slur much ?

[closeupready]

83. See response above.

It's a generalization but generably true.

[Flagg]

86. It's true that French people don't wash ?

I am French you know. It is wrong and I take that as an insult.

[closeupready]

87. I apologize.

When I wrote that post last night, it was quite a bit more harsh in response to the person to whom I was responding. I then realized who wrote it, and edited my response to soften it a bit and try to be a little humorous, and obviously, I missed the mark.

This topic and the posts to it here make me angry. Maybe that's part of it. Same thing on the veil controversy. I recall a boat trip I took up the Saone - at one lock, the Alsatian gatekeeper and I were talking and he somehow worked into the conversation that, if you are muslim and you rape one of our woman, we will castrate you. Not making that up. So for every Voltaire, there's a Jean-Marie le Pen in France.

Peace. :hi:

[krabigirl]

96. LOL - and really, the whole "submissive" thing is a joke.

The divorce laws in France very much favor the man in the relationship.

[fujiyama]

76. I guess the question is

What are the requirements for French citizenship? Are people's personal religious beliefs and practices taken into account?

Being "submissive" to members of the opposite sex seems awfully ambiguous. I understand the French are strongly secular, but unless this women is advocating that all women are to be submissive and wants to impose those backwards-assed stone age beliefs on the rest of French society, I suppose I'd chalk her up to being an idiot, but allow her to be a citizen anyways. I suppose it's also worth questioning how the males she submits to became French citizens considering their own beliefs. Were they asked their own views on the submission of the female race? Do they believe in equal opportunity for the sexes? Are these questions that will be asked to screen for French citizenship?

But this isn't my call and I'm not an expert in French immigration law. Even if she wanted to reject those values she couldn't, due to fear of retaliation from her community (including her male relatives). Other questions still arise for future generations - how will the French deal with forced arranged marriages? Will those lead to violence like it did in the US recently with a Pakistani man killing her daughter due to her wanting out of such a marriage? I've heard such incidents occurring before, and they likely have in France, Britain, and other Western countries with a large number of immigrants from countries where such practices are common.

[supernova]

85. Sounds like she didn't meet the requirements for citizenship

If France now has citizenship classes or education, similar to what we have here in the US, and she didn't learn what she was supposed to learn from that -- let's face it, it's not THAT hard -- then yes, France had a right to refuse her. But it doesn't say she isn't welcome to try again. So if she learns what every French citizen should know, then I bet they allow her.

It is very curious to me that the Husband got HIS citizenship, but didn't help her? :wtf: It seems to me the husband is failing her in this instance by not helping her to understand her legal status, which I'm sure he does... very well. But it suits him to let her continue in ignorance, apparently.

If she's that much of a recluse is she agoraphobic? In this case, the burkha is a convenient cover up for the real problem, which is a possible mental health issue going unattended.

[WriteDown]

91. Comments on this thread are interesting...

I am surprised by the support that France is getting. I'm currently living in Texas in East Dallas. Most of my neighbors are great, with the exception of my neighbors across the street. It is a Mexican family of 15, A father, his 3 grown children and their families including 1 baby. They live without any A/C. The father is the nicest guy in the world and even helped me fix my chainsaw. It was a little difficult since he cannot speak much English. The 3 grown children are just thugs. They sit in the front lawn all day listening to tejano with about 10 of their friends drinking beer and throwing the bottles on street and my lawn. The police get calls about them at least 3 times a week. Every winter, the house is abandoned as they go back to Mexico. The house has been on sale for about 2 years. Last winter I had the rea show me the house and it is absolutely trashed. Even says so in the listing!!! I halfway thought about buying it just to get rid of them.

I wonder how much support this family would get by some DU posters if it was the U.S.A refusing them entry.