Venezuela and Colombia at a standoff over possible border incursion

[maddezmom]

Source: UPI

LIMA: Tension between Colombia and Venezuela increased Sunday after Colombia's defense minister rejected an accusation by the Venezuelan government that 60 Colombian troops had illegally entered a border region of Venezuela known to be a redoubt for Colombian guerrilla groups.

The different versions of Colombian troop activity in the area are part of a dispute that has been festering for months. The dispute intensified in March when Venezuela reacted to a Colombian incursion into Ecuador by saying it would respond with military force if Colombia similarly pursued Colombian rebels on Venezuelan soil.

Tension resurfaced last week after Interpol verified that computer files recovered by Colombian forces in the Ecuadorean raid had not been altered. The files refer to military and financial support by Venezuela of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, a group classified as terrorists by the United States and European Union.

No other evidence of any such arms deals has emerged.

In the latest instance, Foreign Minister Nicolás Maduro of Venezuela said Saturday night that Colombian troops had been detected Friday in Apure State in western Venezuela, about 875 yards from the Colombian border. In a rare written protest, Maduro requested Colombia "to immediately cease these violations of international law."



Read more: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/18/america/farc.php

[dubeskin]

1. I always wondered

If this gets out of hand and war really begins, like, border wars between other countries we've seen in history, which side will the US help out? Is our hated of Socialist Venezuela enough to help out Columbia, the ones who seem to be engages and starting the entire conflict?

[Webster Green]

4. U.S. black-ops mutherfuckers are already working with the Columbians..

They are already there for the phony-baloney "drug war", and they are also trying to bring down Chavez, as they do with any leader who is trying to help his people rather than enslave them.

Glad I could help! :patriot:

[daleo]

10. How many wars can the U.S. manage?

It seems like imperial overstretch has already happened. Adding Venezuela to the list would be crazy.

[ngant17]

20. Current US wars are financed on paper which is getting worthless

but as long as govenment can print the paper money, and as long as the international community will accept it on face value, then there is theoretically no limit to the amount of wars which it can finance on US paper alone.

In reality, the charade will probably end long before any of the wars become resolved, i.e. US goes bankrupt officially and there is a serious economic depression which it has to confront.

[Ian David]

2. How much do you think it cost the American taxpayer to see to it that Colombia invaded Venezuela?n/t

[angstlessk]

3. WHY are they saying Interpol verified Colombias computer claim when they DID NOT??

Interpol never said it verified had not been altered..they in fact stated differently and could not verify the rest???

[Trillo]

5. Interpol's Report Confirms that the Supposed FARC Computers Were Manipulated

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x359850

[Zorra]

6. Colombia is probably using SOA/Blackwater mercenaries to instigate a

war with Venezuela in order conquer and occupy it for the fascist globalists.

If they do manage to start a war before the US election, I'm sure Bu*h and the PNAC neocons would be more than happy to sacrifice US troops and resources by sending them to war against Venezuela in the name of "helping" Colombia, our last remaining fascist ally in South America.

[angstlessk]

7. Zorra thought you hated Chavez et all the 'leftists' in SA???

[Judi Lynn]

9. angstlessk, I think that's "ZorrO." That DU visitor would certainly fit your description. n/t

[angstlessk]

13. those impersonators DO try to confuse the posterati do they not?

sorry I mistook the two!

[Zorro]

14. Well

I've been "visiting" DU longer than you have.

That would make you the newbie, wouldn't it?

[Zorra]

22. I believe you have mistaken me for someone else.

If you search "Zorra Chavez" on the DU search function you'll see what I mean.
:-)

[dipsydoodle]

8. Life might be a lot simpler

if they just slaughtered, buried and kept their mouths shut about such Columbians whatever crossing the border into Venezuala.

[Judi Lynn]

11. You'll recall the very conspicuous incursion made a couple of years ago, which I posted yesterday on

my thread concerning this same incursion into Venezuela by Colombians:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3314164

Apparently that's the way _Bush and his little gnarly narcotraffickers, deathsquad loving right-wing tyrant Álvaro Uribe want it. I surely hope they're going to be wildly disappointed when their schemes crumble apart for them.

Latin America is getting sick of this crap, a fine point these two seem to miss repeatedly. I hope they're both simply too late for Fascism in South America all over again. South America has had it already, and took notes back when US Republican idiot presidents found it easy to find corrupt European descended politicians, military figures, bribe them, use them to betray, divide and conquer the countries and lives of people who were none of their ####ing business.

[dipsydoodle]

12. All right - I'll settle for

for spraying them pink, dressing them up as girls and letting them walk back into Columbia. Video to be posted on youtube of course. :)

[rapturedbyrobots]

15. Doesn't Matter

probably doesn't matter if the computers were manipulated after capture (though they probably were). the 'evidence' contained in the e-mails...if you take the time to look at it, instead of take the media reports at face value...aren't really that incriminating. they don't say anything about chavez and arms deals to rebels. but you wouldn't know that by reading the reports. greg palast does a good job debunking this myth for those who can't read the original e-mails in spanish.

http://www.gregpalast.com/300-million-from-chavez-to-farc-a-fake/#more-1976

original e-mail text below:

#76

Dic11/07/

Camaradas Secretariado. Cordial saludo.

1- Si están de acuerdo, puedo recibir a Jim y a Tucker para escuchar la
propuesta de los gringos.
2. El italiano Cónsolo manda a decir que el parlamento europeo quiere
vincularse a los esfuerzos por el canje humanitario. Pide sea recibido para
hablar al respecto. Atte., Iván.

#77

Dic 15/07/

Camaradas Secretariado. Cordial saludo.
1- La propuesta de Uribe sobre el canje no merece ser respondida.
Ignoremos a esos bellacos.
2- La propuesta del camarada Manuel a Chávez nos daría la más grande
resonancia mundial durante todo el fin de añoY si Uribe no la acepta,
peor para él. Atte., Iván.

#78

Dic 23/07/

Camaradas secretariado. Cordial saludo. Por dos días nos reunimos con
Rodríguez. Conclusiones principales:
1- Con relación a 300, que en adelante llamaremos ossierya hay
gestiones adelantadas por instrucciones del jefe del cojo, las cuales
comentaré en nota aparte. Al jefe lo llamaremos Ángel, y al cojo Ernesto.
2- Para recibir a los tres liberados, Chávez plantea tres opciones: Plan A.
Hacerlo a través de una aravana humanitariade la que harían parte
Venezuela, Francia, Piedad, Suiza, Unión Europea, demócratas, Argentina,
Cruz Roja etc.
Mecanismo: similar al utilizado cuando nos recogieron para los diálogos de
Caracas y Tlaxcala, es decir, en helicópteros recogerían en la coordenadas
que se indiquen, y que sólo conocerá Rodríguez Chacín. De ahí serían
trasladados a un aeropuerto cercano donde los esperaría un avión para
trasladarlos directamente a Caracas.

Acepte o no Uribe esta fórmula, de todas maneras pierde.
Plan B: sin importar el tiempo, recogerlos en la frontera con Venezuela. Plan
C: recogerlos en la frontera con Ecuador.
2- Ven importante mantener vivo el rumor de la trascendencia de la cumbre
del Yarí. Contribuirán a ello.
3- Lo del camarada Martín tiene el visto bueno del jefe. Piden informemos
cuál es su problema para hacer preparativos. Sugiere recogerlo en lo que
resta de este mes, porque si no tendríamos que esperar hasta febrero.
4- También está autorizado lo del Grandote y Rafael. Igual lo de los tiempos.
5- Sarkozy le pidió a Chávez que le transmitiera al camarada Manuel si
podía recibir a su delegado Noé. (Acá nos hemos enterado que éste último
es de la inteligencia francesa).
6- Chávez está muy interesado en el teniente que le escribió la nota. Quiere
se lo entreguemos. Entiende que por lo que le mandó a decir, si se lo
entregamos a Uribe, lo pondrá preso. También planteó lo de Ingrid, pero le
dijimos que si hacíamos eso nos quedaríamos sin cartas.
6- Con el cojo hemos desarrollado una excelente y cada vez más estrecha
relación.
Es todo, atte., Iván.

[Peace Patriot]

17. Interpol found that 48,055 files had been "accessed, created, modified or deleted"

while the computers were in the custody of the Colombian military. I think that settles the matter of how reliable this "evidence" is. For the life of me, I can't understand the Associated Pukes' headlines implyng or actually outright lying that Interpol's report supports Uribe's allegations. It does not.

----

COLOMBIA: Interpol Notes Improper Initial Handling of FARC Laptops
By Constanza Vieira
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=42391

"Using their forensic tools, they (the Interpol experts) found a total of 48,055 files for which the timestamps indicated that they had either been created, accessed, modified or deleted as a result of the direct access to the eight seized exhibits by Colombian authorities between the time of their seizure on 1 March 2008 and 3 March 2008 at 11:45 a.m."

BoRev.net has some fun stuff on the date-stamps. I'm most interested in the deletions. Why would the Colombian military delete anything in these laptops? (The Uribe Cartel's drug routes?)

[Judi Lynn]

18. As a wild leap of desperation, I ran the messages through google translation tool,

and although it's really, really clumsy, and spotty, it's easy to see they are discussing the conditions for the prisoner release.

~~~~~~~~~
Google translation tool:

Road Back Secretariat. Cordial greetings.

1 - If they agree, I get to listen to Jim Tucker and the
proposal for the gringos.
2. The Italian consoles commanded to say that the European parliament wants
linked to efforts by the humanitarian exchange. Requests to be received
talk about it. Atte., Ivan.

# 77

Dec. 15/07 /

Road Back Secretariat. Cordial greetings.
1 - The proposed Uribe on the exchange does not deserve to be answered.
Ignore these vile.
2 - The proposal of Comrade Manuel Chavez would give us the largest
resonance throughout the world so añoY if Uribe does not accept it,
worse for him. Atte., Ivan.

# 78

Dec. 23/07 /

Road Back Secretariat. Cordial greetings. For two days we met
Rodriguez. Key findings:
1 - With respect to 300, which now must call ossierya
advanced efforts by instructions of the head of lame, which
comment in a separate note. When the boss called Angel, and the lame Ernesto.
2 - To get the three released, Chavez raises three options: Plan A.
Doing so through a Aravane humanitariade which would hand
Venezuela, France, Piedad, Switzerland, European Union, Democrats, Argentina
Red Cross and so on.
Mechanism: similar to that used when we gathered for dialogues
Caracas and Tlaxcala, ie helicopters reflected in the coordinates
indicating that, and that only known Rodriguez Chacín. Hence would
moved to a nearby airport where a plane to expect
transferred directly to Caracas.

Accept or not this formula Uribe, loses anyway.
Plan B: no matter the time, collect them at the border with Venezuela. Plan
C: collect on the border with Ecuador.
2 - Get important to keep alive the rumour of the significance of the summit
Yara's. Contribute to this.
3 - What's comrade Martin has the endorsement of the head. She requested information
what is their problem to make preparations. Suggests picked up on what
remainder of this month, because if we would not have to wait until February.
4 - is also authorized what's big and Rafael. Just what of the times.
5 - Sarkozy asked Chavez to transmit to Comrade Manuel if
could receive his deputy Noah. (Here we learned that the latter
is the French intelligence).
6 - Chavez is very interested in the lieutenant who wrote the note. Want
gives it. He understood that by what he commanded to say, if it is
Uribe to deliver, what will prisoner. He also raised what Ingrid, but he
we said that if it did we ran out of letters.
6 - With the lame we have developed an excellent and increasingly close
relationship.
It's everything, Attn., Ivan.

~~~~~~~~~
Apparently there are two completely different people with the same last name, one of them is Manuel Chavez.

It's so clear Hugo Chavez is NOT "Angel" or they wouldn't also call him "Chavez," just as Greg Palast said. Why have code names for someone you are also calling by his name? God. They must think people are idiots to try to push that crap off on us.

Going to study these a little harder. Seems very interesting.

Thanks for being the one who posted this information.

Welcome to D.U., rapturedbyrobots! :hi:

[Peace Patriot]

16. The Bush Junta has larded $5.5 BILLION in military aid on the Colombian fascists

just for this purpose--as a staging area for military ops against Venezuela and Ecuador, countries run by leftist, democratic leaders, who control the largest oil reserves in the western hemisphere, and who believe in using the country's oil profits to benefit the poor majority. The Bushites don't have much time left in which to use the U.S. military for stealing other peoples' oil, and leaving death and mayhem in their wake. They won't win with a direct assault on Venezuela and Ecuador. Believe me, Latin America would rise up as one and kick the U.S. military out of the region, and shut down U.S. embassies and break off relations with the U.S. Right, left, center--doesn't matter. They would be virtually unanimous on this. I have very good reasons to believe this, which I won't go into here. So, the Bushites need, a) a proxy for their war (which they have--Colombia is a Bush Cartel client state, at our expense), and b) an indirect strategy, as backup to their strategy of directly provoking Venezuela and Ecuador into a war with Colombia (which they've already tried to do--on March 1 of this year--but failed; Chavez was too smart for them).

The indirect strategy is to collude with the rightwing faction in the oil-rich state of Zulia, in Venezuela (a province adjacent to Colombia) to secede from Venezuela and ally with Colombia. Documents have been leaked (transcript of a meeting) implicating Bush/U.S. Ambassador Brownfield in such a plot. They are pursuing a similar strategy in Bolivia--which may be a dry run to test South American reaction, but was more likely originally planned as a straightforward grab of Bolivia's gas and oil reserves in the eastern provinces, using the white separatist movement. One of the four provinces just voted to secede. They are supported, funded, organized and probably armed by the United States of America. (Bolivia has an indigenous president, its first; it is a largely indigenous country. The racism of the rich white minority is virulent--and naturally the Bushites would stir that up). Meanwhile, Paraguay elected a leftist president for the first time, ever--overturning 60 years of rightwing rule, and throwing a monkey wrench into Bushite plans. The gas/oil-rich Bolivian provinces in question are adjacent to Paraguay. Both countries are land-locked, but Paraguay has a significant U.S. air base, capable of landing large transports, and the rightwing government had been cooperating with U.S. military exercises. The new leftist president opposes both the base and the exercises, and would not likely approve U.S. interference with his neighbor Bolivia.

In an op-ed in the Washington Post*, on 12/1/07 (a highly significant date--I'll explain in a moment), Donald Rumsfeld urged "swift action" by the U.S. in support of "friends and allies" in South America. The Bushites don't have any "friends and allies" in South America, except the fascist torturers, mass murderers and drug traffickers running Colombia, and USAID-NED and covert budget funded fascist cabals within Venezuela, Bolivia, and probably Ecuador and others (Argentina, likely--government allied with Chavez and the Bolivarians--and there was a big oil find there, recently). "Swift action" by the U.S. can only mean one thing--military action. So, which of these situations will produce such action before Bush leaves office?

Rumsfeld published his op-ed on the very weekend that two FARC hostages were to be released, as the result of Chavez's hostage negotiation efforts at the request of the Colombian government, and the personal request of Bush tool, Alvaro Uribe. Rumsfeld says, in paragraph one, that Chavez's efforts were "not welcome in Colombia," but they had been days before. Chavez had taken the request seriously, and was succeeding. Uribe then (as that weekend approached) abruptly withdrew the request, and BOMBED the location of the two hostages, as they were in route to Caracas, driving them back on a 20 mile hike into the jungle, back into captivity. This incredible treachery smells of Rumsfeld. And I think the plan was to hand Chavez a diplomatic disaster, with dead hostages. (There may have been a rehearsal involving a mysterious group of shooters, who attacked a FARC camp and targeted and killed all the hostages who were present, about six months earlier.)

Despite additional efforts by Uribe to sabotage hostage releases, Chavez managed to get those two hostages out safely, a few weeks later, and eventually got a total of six released. Between the first and second releases, the president of France, other world leaders, and the hostages' families, all begged Chavez to continue his efforts, despite Uribe's lack of cooperation and treachery. And the presidents of Ecuador and Argentina also became involved. There was hope that these hostage releases by Colombia's leftist rebels would lead to a peaceful settlement of Colombia's 40+ year civil war--a war that is a major headache for Venezuela and Ecuador, resulting in thousands of poor Colombian refugees flooding into their countries, mostly fleeing the horrendous atrocities against innocent people committed by the Colombian military and rightwing paramilitaries. The president of Ecuador, Rafael Correa, was working on release of Ingrid Betancourt (a French/Colombian citizen, and former leftist candidate for president of Colombia), and was in "very advanced negotiations" with the FARC's chief hostage negotiator, Raul Reyes, in the last week of Feburary.

On March 1, the Colombian military--using high tech U.S. surveillance and U.S. "smart bombs" (and possibly U.S. aircraft and personnel)--blew Reyes' camp away, killing Reyes and 24 others, at a location just inside Ecuador's territory. Colombian soldiers then crossed the border to shoot any survivors. The Ecuadoran military found bodies in their pajamas shot in the back. The camp had been asleep. Among the dead was one Ecuadoran citizen and several visiting Mexican students (apparently there to participate in the humanitarian mission).

Having destroyed all hope for further hostage releases, and for peace, Uribe claimed to have seized laptops belonging to Raul Reyes, and proceeded to leak bits and pieces of their contents to the press, wildly overinterpreting them, to slander Chavez and Correa as "terrorist-lovers."

In hindsight, we can see the whole arc of this plot--from Uribe's initial request to Chavez, to drawing Reyes over the border into Ecuador (Reyes probably thought it would be a safer location for hostages releases, given Uribe's earlier attempt to bomb the hostages in Colombia, as they were released), encouraging increased contacts between FARC and Chavez and Correa--enticed by the prospects of hostage releases and peace. As heads of state, responsible for their countries' safety, Chavez and Correa would be derelict in their duties NOT to have some contacts with the FARC. As Correa has said, his country does not border Colombia--it borders the FARC!" (The FARC controls about a third of Colombia's territory.) Hostage negotiations would greatly accelerate such contacts, and they would include bargaining. The docs, if they are real, include some wishful thinking, as to what FARC wants from Chavez or Correa. But there is no evidence--none!--that they ever gave FARC anything, aside from diplomatic help in releasing hostages.

An example of Uribe's wild over-interpretation: He construes the number "300"--used in connection with "a dossier"--to mean "$300,000" and makes it an accusation that Chavez gave FARC $300,000. But the number is far more likely referring to hostages. Further, Interpol--when Colombia gave them the laptops for inspection, later on--found that 48,055 files had been "accessed, created, modified or deleted" by the Colombian military, making the laptops useless as evidence of anything. Interpol very carefully avoided saying anything about the CONTENTS of the computers, and used non-Spanish speakers as analysts to insure this. They merely verified that the laptops belonged to Reyes, although how they did even that is still unclear.

The plot furthermore included Colombia/U.S. doing something so provoking--a bombing attack and invasion of Ecuador--as to invite retaliation and war. When that didn't work (Chavez talked Correa out of it--is my read on things--for which the president of Brazil, Lula da Silva, called Chavez "the great peacemaker), they then came up with the laptops.

Really, there is an evil mind behind all this--and, given Donald Rumsfeld's avid (and timely) interest in the matter, I can only think it's his. His "Office of Special Plans" (manufactured, cherry-picked intel; black ops) is alive and well in South America.

------------

*"The Smart Way to Beat Tyrants Like Chávez," by Donald Rumsfeld, 12/1/07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/30/AR2007113001800.html

[happydreams]

19. The Interpol guy Ronald "Ignoble" is one of Poppy's boys from the 80's

The guy spearheading this specious crock of shit investigation is Bushboy from a way back.

Ronald Kenneth Noble (born 1957) is an American law enforcement officer. He was elected Secretary General by the 69th INTERPOL General Assembly in Rhodes, Greece, in 2000, and was unanimously reelected to a second five-year term by the 74th INTERPOL General Assembly in Berlin, Germany, in 2005. From 1994 until 1996 he was the Undersecretary for Enforcement of the United States Department of the Treasury in which he was responsible for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. He served as the chief of staff of the Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice from 1988 until 1989. He is a 1979 graduate of the University of New Hampshire and a 1982 graduate of Stanford Law School. Mr. Noble also is a tenured professor at the New York University School of Law, on leave of absence while serving at Interpol.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Noble

Just look at how they homed in on this little bit of easily corrupted evidence. :eyes:

Time to get an independent investigation into this matter.

I suggest this www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Calvin guy to head the investigation! He gives Zorro hell I tell ya! :rofl:

[buckrogers1965]

21. Chain of custody.

"Using their forensic tools, they (the Interpol experts) found a total of 48,055 files for which the timestamps indicated that they had either been created, accessed, modified or deleted as a result of the direct access to the eight seized exhibits by Colombian authorities between the time of their seizure on 1 March 2008 and 3 March 2008 at 11:45 a.m.

This means that nothing on the computers is worth jack now. 50,000 files could have been created, modified or deleted. Anything could have been placed on those computers and anything deleted from them. What were they thinking?

[AngryAmish]

23. I'm sure this will end well.

Both countries are lead by such intelligent, reasonable people. This should be resolved peaceably directly.