Chávez Aided Colombia Rebels, Captured Computer Files Show

[maddezmom]

Source: WSJ

Chávez Aided Colombia Rebels,
Captured Computer Files Show
By JOSÉ DE CÓRDOBA and JAY SOLOMON
May 9, 2008; Page A1

BOGOTÁ, Colombia -- A cache of controversial computer files closely tying Venezuela's President Hugo Chávez to communist rebels seeking to topple Colombia's government appear to be authentic, U.S. intelligence officials say.

The trove -- found on a dead guerrilla leader's laptops during a military raid in March -- is likely to ratchet up pressure for the U.S. to impose sanctions on one of its most important oil suppliers.

The files that have been made public so far have largely confirmed Mr. Chávez's well-known sympathy for the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC. But a review by The Wall Street Journal of more than 100 new files from the computers suggests that Venezuela has broader and deeper ties to the FARC than previously known.

These documents indicate Venezuela appears to be making concrete offers to help arm the rebels, possibly with rocket-propelled grenades and ground-to-air missiles. The files suggest that Venezuela offered the FARC the use of one of its ports to receive arms shipments, and that Venezuela raised the prospect of drawing up a joint security plan with the FARC and sought basic training in guerrilla-warfare techniques.



Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121029900813279693.html?mod=hpp_us_whats_news

---

Gas jumps above $3.67, oil passes $126 on Venezuela concerns

NEW YORK - Oil rose above $126 a barrel for the first time Friday, bringing its advance this week to nearly $10, as investors questioned whether a possible confrontation between the U.S. and Venezuela could cut exports from the OPEC member. Gas prices, meanwhile, rose above an average $3.67 a gallon at the pump, following oil‘s recent path higher.

"If we put on sanctions, I‘m sure Chavez would threaten to cut off our oil supply," said Phil Flynn, an analyst at Alaron Trading Corp. "Obviously that would have a major impact on oil prices."

Even if Chavez cut oil shipments to the U.S., Venezuelan oil would still make its way to the U.S. via middle men, who would buy it from Venezuela and resell it to the U.S., Flynn said. But that new layer in the supply chain would bump up costs.

Many analysts believe the doubling in oil prices since this time last year has much to do with the dollar‘s protracted decline. Another school of thought thinks tight global supplies of oil, driven by growing demand in countries such as China, Brazil and India, is the primary factor driving oil higher.

more:http://www.onelocalnews.com/chandlernews-dispatch/stories1/index.php?action=fullnews&id=1477

[Larkspur]

1. More propaganda

This link was debunked a while ago.

[cstanleytech]

4. Oh?

Do you happen to have the link please, would be interesting to read.

[subsuelo]

11. Who do you trust?

The terrorist Bush administration or the freedom loving Chavez government?

[cstanleytech]

19. Neither. NT

[Traction311]

37. "Freedom loving"

That's a good one.

[thunderdog]

76. Freedom loving...?

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

21. Greg Pallast did it once, and then later some tech types

said it was baloney. I don't have the link to either but it's likely searchable "Pallast FARC laptop" and "FARC laptop" for the second one. The second story came out about six weeks ago.

http://www.gregpalast.com/300-million-from-chavez-to-farc-a-fake/
http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/5659.html

[Judi Lynn]

38. These links will be good for future reference. I'm going to save them. Thanks. n/t

[Bacchus39]

47. ummm. they aren't the ones who are evaluating the computers

those are just opinions

[ronnie624]

56. "The US press

snorted up this line about Chavez’ $300 million to “terrorists” quicker than the young Bush inhaling Colombia’s powdered export."

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

60. I know. It was hilarious -- or would be if Bush wasn't accusing Chavez

of what he himself is doing -- enabling Colombian terrorists, in his case, the Colombian criminal govenment.

[Robbien]

2. Just goes to show what a tool the Wall Street Journal is becoming

The WSJ use to keep the craziness on their opinion pages. Now the right wing propaganda is free to roam throughout the place.

[DogPoundPup]

8. Murdoch control = zero accountability

[subsuelo]

12. is becoming? When was the time it wasn't?

[alcibiades_mystery]

3. Computer Files Captured by Agent "Curveball"

:rofl:

[LynnTheDem]

5. Sigh.

Anyone else getting tired of the deeply stinking bullshit?

[pop goes the weasel]

6. riiiiight

Any chance there's truth to the story? Maybe. But this administration has proved admirably that it thinks nothing of manufacturing "evidence" for war.

[Robbien]

9. The only truth

is that Chavez did have contact with FARC. But they purposely do not say that that contact and money exchange was all relative to the freeing of the six hostages and that Chavez was ASKED to be the mediator.

[ronnie624]

7. The author of the article offers no corroboration

- "U.S. official said"
- "Colombian intelligence services say"
- "According to the senior U.S. intelligence official"
- "The documents suggest"
- "according to one 2005 email"
- "Colombian military analysts believe"
- "the documents indicate"

And numerous accusations that the author of the article chooses not to support with any quotes from the alleged documents.

More transparent propaganda.

[subsuelo]

13. No need for corroboration facts or actual evidence

This is an administration that invaded the sovereign nation of Iraq based on lies, deceptions and cover ups.

[ronnie624]

16. I realize I'm pointing out the obvious,

but there are some who frequent these threads that can't see the obvious without a very simple diagram.
;-)

[subsuelo]

10. Chavez's response to this a few weeks back was brilliant

"The main weapon they have now is the computer, the supposed computer of Paul Reyes. This computer is like a la carte service, giving you whatever you want. You want steak? or fried fish? How would you like it prepared? You'll get it however the empire decides."

[subsuelo]

14. I just love how the WSJ title is posted as if it were facts

"Chávez Aided Colombia Rebels, Captured Computer Files Show" as if there is no question or dispute.

The media in the U.S. is a JOKE

[barnel]

15. whether this is true or not, why must we be involved in everything?

a model where we borrow from everyone in the world, to be the world cop is a model that ends in our poverty

[subsuelo]

17. well, the U.S. isn't involved in everything...

There are some places where there is no interest or concern. Obviously, the fourth largest source of oil for the U.S. is not one of them. And we can no longer allow this nitwit freedom loving Chavez guy to run about down there helping the poor with all that oil money, can we?

[atreides1]

34. You're Right

I recall that the U.S. wasn't involved with Hurricane Katrina, at least not in the beginning.;)

[maddezmom]

18. more: Venezuelan Bonds Decline After Report of Chavez's Links to FARC

By Lester Pimentel

May 9 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan bonds fell, sending yields over U.S. Treasuries to their widest in six weeks, amid speculation that links between President Hugo Chavez and guerrillas fighting Colombia's government may be extensive.

~snip~

``After the whole border skirmish, now to find out that there may be more links to the FARC just brings us back to that story,'' said Cathy Elmore, who manages $700 million of emerging- market debt at WestLB Mellon Asset in London.

The report spurred concern the U.S. State Department will put Venezuela on its state sponsors of terrorism list, which would force U.S. investors to liquidate holdings of the country's securities. A spokeswoman at the State Department had no immediate comment when contacted by Bloomberg News today.

March Air Strike

Venezuela, which the U.S. re-certified in May 2007 as ``not fully cooperating'' with antiterrorism efforts, will remain in that category for now, Dell Dailey, coordinator of the State Department's counterterrorism office, said in a report April 30. He declined to speculate about whether Venezuela would be added to the state sponsors list.

more:http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=a.tm6sYBbm54&refer=latin_america

[EFerrari]

20. Hasn't this story already been debunked twice?

First by Pallast, then later by geeks here? I should have saved that link.

[maddezmom]

22. yes, I'm sure a search would pull it up

But it's effecting the gas prices and a lot of other things. CNN has reported on it atleast 4 times since I posted it.

[EFerrari]

23. I put two links in my #21.

:hi:

[Pavulon]

25. Reality

unless a "debunker" had the equipment, a forensic analyst, and the context to understand what they are looking at there is no way to debunk this. Just as there is no way to prove it with out the same things.

In reality information on a dead guys computer would be more useful in providing information to follow up on.

Bank accounts, wire transfers, communications etc. would be the result of this.

Even if the FARC guy tired to encrypt it that would not stand up to government attempts to access it.

[EFerrari]

27. I tend to agree with you with two caveats. One, iirc,

the second story was a group of forensic types. And two, if Chavez had that kind of tie to FARC, Betancourt would probably be free by now. She's gravely ill, perhaps dying, and it would be been a coup for both FARC AND Chavez to secure her safe release.

That she's still in captivity tends to indicate that Chavez has no relationship of patronage with FARC.

It's also a mystery how this laptop managed to survive the bombing. lol

[Pavulon]

31. A hd can withstand

a beating. the machine can be destroyed while the platters could be totally intact. Some range into hundreds of g's. Many pieces of industrial equipment use them and they withstand very harsh places.

[Flanker]

32. Except the data was made "available" hours after the incident...

It is irrelevant though they claimed they found the laptop turned on. pfft.

[Pavulon]

33. Strange

without any corroboration it is pretty meaningless. Possible the owner was killed.

Any real information is behind closed doors. The technology that triangulated him and led to his death can also provide other useful information.

Hard to trust either side, POS kidnappers and professional liars..

[Bacchus39]

46. nope, the files are just now being analyzed and an INTERPOL report is due next week

n/t

[SpikeTss]

24. People seem to forget too soon ...

... little incidents like this one for example, which happened soon after Bush's war of aggression against the Iraqi population.
Immediately after the onslaught of our military against the Iraqis critics of the attack were victims of a smear campaign. Luckily for Galloway, the lies were exposed:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/3006166.stm

Paper apologises to Galloway

An American newspaper has apologised to Glasgow Labour MP George Galloway after alleging that he accepted millions of pounds from Saddam Hussein.

The Christian Science Monitor has admitted that a set of documents upon which it based its story on were "almost certainly" fake.

Mr Galloway has always strenuously denied that he took any money from the Iraqi regime.

The newspaper said two of the "oldest" documents - dated between 1992 and 1993 - were actually written within the past few months.

Paul Van Slambrouck, Monitor editor, issued an apology both to Mr Galloway and the paper's readers.

He said: "At the time we published these documents, we felt they were newsworthy and appeared credible, although we did explicitly state in our article that we could not guarantee their authenticity.

"It is important to set the record straight. We are convinced the documents are bogus. We apologise to Mr Galloway and to our readers."

[Zorra]

26. Murdoch owns the WSJ. Is this source credible enough for LBN? n/t

[Judi Lynn]

28. You haven't grasped the publication would only be as "credible" as its publisher allows it to be?

How has that truth escaped you?

[EFerrari]

30. Judi Lynn: in the second link I put in #21, the letter is signed

by numerous academics PLUS it is annotated to other sources (see the notes).

[Judi Lynn]

36. Those links are vital! These people aren't just playing beanbag, either!

They are trusted, proven people capable of grasping the dynamics of this obvious scam.

Just noticed in the notes, another link to look for when time's available:

Notes:

1. For instance, the Washington Post claimed in a March 5 editorial that "Chávez had recently given the group $300 million"; days later, the New York Times reported that "Colombian officials have said that information seized in the raid shows that the Venezuelan government may have channeled about $300 million to the FARC." See our discussion in this letter above on the source of this erroneous interpretation.

2. "OAS chief to US Congress: no Venezuela-terrorist link," AFP, March 10, 2008.

3. "$300 Million from Chavez to FARC a Fake," Greg Palast, TomPaine.Com

4. See "About those FARC Documents," Adam Isacson, Center for International Policy and http://www.cipcol.org/?p=555 ">"A Fairy Tale from a Guerilla Laptop," Adam Isacson, Center for International Policy.

ETC.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Uh, oh! I couldn't stand the suspense, went and looked at the source linked in #4:

A fairy tale from a guerrilla laptop
FARC Hostages, Uribe Government Security Policies, U.S. Congress

Yesterday, the Colombian newsmagazine Semana published a series of guerrilla communications, apparently recovered from computers found at the site where FARC leader “Raúl Reyes” was killed on March 1.

They include this tantalizing passage, in an August 23, 2007 communication from FARC Secretariat member Alfonso Cano to the other six secretariat commanders.

The Democrats of the USA, in Colombia, who were in Venezuela before, say they have a clear position about a political negotiation with the FARC. {Colombian Nobel Laureate author Gabriel} García Márquez is in charge of this intermediation with the FARC on behalf of the USA, and they want Panama to be the country through which to talk to the FARC. For this, García Márquez has already transferred that request to {Panamanian President Martín} Torrijos, and he accepted. Clinton told García Márquez in Cartagena, “I want to have a personal task. I want to help Colombia. An accord with the FARC must be sought.” Senator McGovern told García Márquez that: Bush wants to make Colombia play the role that West Germany played against socialist Europe, and this must be stopped. He also said that the Democrats’ political analyst specialized in Colombia is Adam Isackson {sic.}.

I was pretty surprised to see my name there, however misspelled. But since it is, perhaps I’m in a position to clear up some of this.

• I don’t know of Bill Clinton expressing any recent desire to be involved in talks with the FARC. That would be surprising, since he has had to dedicate so much time to his wife’s presidential campaign.
  
• The involvement of Gabriel García Márquez and Martín Torrijos is also something I had never heard before. If true, it would be encouraging, because both have sufficient credibility with both sides to be useful interlocutors.
  
• The “Senator McGovern” in question is definitely not former Senator and presidential candidate George McGovern (D-South Dakota), who has not been to Colombia anytime recently.
  
• This leaves Rep. Jim McGovern, who has been to Colombia twice in the past year. But Rep. McGovern has never set foot in Venezuela. In fact, very few congressional Democrats have paid visits to Venezuela since Chávez made his “sulfur” speech at the UN in September 2006.
  
• Neither has Rep. McGovern ever met Gabriel García Márquez.
  
• Rep. McGovern denies making any bizarre comments about West Germany. (And of course, defenders of U.S. policy could easily point out that West Germany emerged from the Cold War as a stable democracy and an economic powerhouse.)
  
• Though more of a legal detail than anything else, I should make clear that I have no formal ties to the Democratic Party. It just so happens that many more Democrats than Republicans agree with CIP’s critiques of, and recommendations for, U.S. policy toward Colombia and Latin America. Getting those recommendations enacted, in fact, requires the support of at least a fair number of Republicans.

With so many glaring inaccuracies, it’s apparent that this FARC communication is either a blatant fabrication or the result of a series of miscommunications fed in part by the guerrillas’ own wishful thinking. It could be that, like the old game of “telephone,” messages get more and more garbled as they are passed along to the top of the guerrilla command.

Knowledge that this particular communication is so inaccurate leads me to two conclusions about the “revelations” from Raúl Reyes’s computers.

1. They cannot be taken at face value. While what has been recovered so far reveals much about the guerrillas’ thinking, their own understanding of their dealings with the outside world is apparently quite distorted. For me, knowing how badly the guerrillas got things wrong about the “Democrats” calls into question the accuracy of other tidbits recovered from the FARC computers, including Venezuela’s alleged payments or the guerrillas’ apparent efforts to buy uranium.
   
   
2. They underscore the need for trusted interlocutors. The recovered communiqués show how badly information gets garbled and distorted as it passes, slowly, to the guerrilla commanders in their jungle hideouts. If talks with the guerrillas are to go ahead about anything, but especially about freeing their hostages, then both sides need a trusted go-between who can ensure that communications pass efficiently, accurately and in something close to real time. These necessary conversations just can’t happen otherwise. We repeat our call for the appointment of a neutral facilitator, or group of facilitators, that is acceptable to all sides.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The questions of and answers by the author at the end are worthwhile, as well.

Thanks for the info.! :hi:

[Bacchus39]

48. so what? they don't have the computers

n/t

[Zorra]

51. I don't understand your reply. I was questioning the credibility of

the WSJ. The WSJ is traditionally a conservative propaganda rag. Since Murdoch took it over, the WSJ now has the credibility of something like the World Nut Daily, and IMO is no longer an acceptable source for LBN - so I was wondering why the mods are allowing it.

So again, I really don't understand your reply.

[maddezmom]

58. WSJ is allowed in LBN

As is AP.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080510/wl_sthasia_afp/afghanistanunrestus;_ylt=Au.oQTvp5m0uRl9rwMRi9u4Bxg8F

[Judi Lynn]

29. Exactly as if time had stood still since Mark Twain's death. He said a lie travels halfway around

the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.

Can't imagine how anyone still hasn't been moved to realize, at this VERY late date, it's up to him/her to look into these stories and REFUSE to buy anything hook, line, and sinker he/she gets from corporate media. You've seen where corporate media led you already, or should have seen, at least.

Get a sense of perspective. Look backward in time at how untrustworthy public information has been at critical moments. Special interests have dictated what you hear for a very long time. The only thing that keeps you from being duped is your own hard work reading MORE, and the engagement of your otherwise idle brain cells.

Research it yourself. Don't pass along pure crap as if Moses just brought it down from the mountaintop.

[KansDem]

35. So they can find Hugo's cache of files but they can't find Bush's White House emails?

Do I understand this correctly?

[Peace Patriot]

40. LOL!!! nt

[AlphaCentauri]

54. good question, where are those email?

and the hard drives that were disposed?

[annabanana]

39. This must be the magic laptop... the only thing left untouched in the

flattened and burned "rebel camp"..

I remember that astounding coincidence...

[Peace Patriot]

41. Highly recommended for humorous perspective on magic laptop: www.BoRev.net

Funny AND informative--on all matters pertaining to Bushites and South American leftist presidents.

The miracle laptop page:
http://www.borev.net/cgi-bin/mt/mt-search.cgi?tag=Miracle%20Laptop&blog_id=1

[Peace Patriot]

42. Really, sometimes all you can do is laugh...even though, well...

Bushitism = dead people, pain, suffering, starvation, hopelessness, torture, fascism, more dead people, more pain, tears, sadness, rage...

------

"The Smart Way to Beat Tyrants Like Chávez," by Donald Rumsfeld, 12/1/07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/30/AR2007113001800.html


------

BoRev is a good antidote to toxic Murdoch, Rumsfeld & cabal.

[Judi Lynn]

43. Great link! It's good to see that reminder, too, that the OAS already told people

there's no link long ago:

Hey the verdict is in:"There is no evidence linking Venezuela to terrorist groups, the head of the Organization of American States on Thursday told US lawmakers looking into last month's Colombia-Ecuador border crisis."

[maddezmom]

44. Looks like Interpol will be releasing their findings on May 15

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aFwmvhPk1UTk&refer=news

[Zorro]

45. And then the truth will be revealed

I suspect there's going to be quite a flurry of pro_Chavez ravings on this site when Interpol reveals the results of their analysis.

I'm very interested to hear that report.

[AlphaCentauri]

53. don't worry too much the interpol will not justified Uribes accusation

it will verify that the files were there in that computer, but since the interpol did not find the computer they would not be able to verify that it belong to the leftist guerrilla because the evidence in this case is the computer and it was provided by the Colombian government, that make it just an interesting object provided by a narco government.

[polticalpout]

84. But they should be able to tell where the emails originated from

Thus they should be able to tell if they are original or were manufactured or changed at some point.

[arikara]

49. U.S. intelligence officials...

would these be the same guys who went along with the fiction that Saddam was trying to buy yellowcake? The same guys who failed to pull off the coup in Venezuela?

Yah right, their computer files are authentic. Anything that comes out of these bastards is a lie.

[Zorro]

50. These are the guys

that are tipping you off that the Interpol report to be released next week is going to be damning to Chavez and Correa.

[Better Believe It]

52. The CIA Are Experts At Manufacturing "Evidence"

[SpikeTss]

55. The problem with files on computers

is that they are incredibly easy to forge. For example: You set the internal clock of a laptop to September 10th, 2001. Next you create a Word document, save it and guess what you've got? Right: A letter that was written on September 10th.

This whole completely ridiculous incident involving a magic laptop is best described on this Web site:

http://www.borev.net/cgi-bin/mt/mt-search.cgi?tag=Miracle%20Laptop&blog_id=1

[Judi Lynn]

57. What are the chances the Bush-pleasing corporate media would EVER consider checking on this?

They refuse to look into anything handed to them for them to publish.

Pity, since we, the public they pretend to serve, haven't had legitimate information on any important subject from them for YEARS.

[northzax]

66. um, not really

it's pretty easy to show that attempt at faking stuff if you have a decent forensic tech. It's hard to do anything on a computer without leaving a trail from someone who knows how to find it

[ronnie624]

59. Presumably, you've read this:

Letter to the Media: Laptop Does Not Prove Venezuela Ties to Rebels

<http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/5659.html>

endorsed by these guys:

Charles Bergquist, University of Washington, Seattle

Larry Birns, Council on Hemispheric Affairs

Amy Chazkel, Queens College, City University of New York

Avi Chomsky, Salem State College

Luis Duno Gottberg , Florida Atlantic University

James Early, TransAfrica Forum Board of Directors and Institute for Policy Studies Board of Directors

Samuel Farber, Brooklyn College, City University of New York

Sujatha Fernandes, Queens College, City University of New York

Lesley Gill, American University

Greg Grandin, New York University

Daniel Hellinger, Webster University

Forrest Hylton, New York University

Diane Nelson, Duke University

Jocelyn Olcott, Duke University

Diana Paton, University of Newcastle, UK

Fred Rosen, North American Congress on Latin America

T.M Scruggs, University of Iowa

Sinclair Thomson, New York University

Miguel Tinker Salas, Pomona College

Mark Weisbrot, Center for Economic and Policy Research

John Womack, Harvard University

These items are also quite interesting:

<http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=41870>

<http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-dirtybomb27mar27,1,5981373.story>

<http://www.cipcol.org/?p=556>

<http://www.gregpalast.com/300-million-from-chavez-to-farc-a-fake/>

<http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5ipNXwHOq34tlujMqpPj9OZVXwznw>

Of course, none of these items support the Bush Administration's State Department position, so you probably don't have much interest in them.

[Zorro]

61. Keep on wishing, Dorothy

Those laptops and the data they contain are the real deal, and you know it.

That's why you're furiously spinning the message to dismiss it. Because the truth hurts.

[MilesColtrane]

62. Is that sulfur and brimstone I smell?

Or just bullshit...

Manufactured reasons for sanctions=higher oil prices=more profit for Exxon/Mobil

Who knows, if Bushboy can't get his Iran war on, maybe he'll at least get to bomb Venezuela as a consolation prize.

[JohnnyCougar]

63. Hogwash

Another smear of Chavez based on vague, anonymous citations that have no proof to back them up. It's a classic Rupert Murdoch propaganda hitpiece.

[JohnnyCougar]

64. Whoops...meant to respond to the OP.

[happydreams]

65. Its a Chavez plot....

to jack up the price of oil!

And it worked!

Just like everything else Chavez does. }(

[SpikeTss]

67. The price of oil

Its a Chavez plot to jack up the price of oil!

And it worked!

Just like everything else Chavez does.

Last time I checked the spike of oil prices was caused by a conglomerate of reasons. The most important ones being though

- the war of aggression against the Iraqis since March 2003
- the threat of a war of aggression against the Iranian people

So, Chavez is behind this? Please explain, because to me it looks like these actions are those of the fascists in the White House.

And regarding term fascists: I urge you to have a look at this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZHABaK7LXYU

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc

[happydreams]

77. It was meant to be tongue-n' -cheek.

The catch is in the last sentence.

:hi:

[Political Heretic]

68. I've basically given up trying to get at the truth when it comes to anything in Venezuela

On the U.S. there are so many huge power interests in making Chavez look as terrible as possible. On his side, there is equally as much disinformation and lack of transparency.

[Judi Lynn]

69. Why don't you post a link or two to areas in which the President of Venezuela is concealing

information from his citizens? You'd be doing DU'ers a considerable favor by throwing the light of truth on this.

[Political Heretic]

70. go to humanrightswatch.org, and choose the Americas, then Venezuela

More than enough info to get your started.

Again, I am well aware, and outraged, at the disinformation and lies being spread by our government and our corporations about Chavez and Venezuela. I am also well aware of their profit motivations and their distaste for his populist/socialist moves to help, oh...say poor people in general. :)

But, like I said... hard to get solid information on either side, and there's a great lack of transparency in the government there.

[Judi Lynn]

71. It would be more appropriate if you go to humanrightswatch.org, pick the information

you want to share with DU, then return here and post it. Telling people to go sift through websites isn't "prudent," as we all don't have the time to accept reading assignments.

Find the items you want to highlight, then post them, just the way DU'ers do it!

[ronnie624]

74. The old "go to Human Rights Watch and see for yourself" canard

It's always been a favored tactic of the Chavez 'critics'.

You'd think that if someone had some specific charges that they wanted to level, it would take no more than a few minutes worth of effort to post some information that supports those charges. After all, the 'critics' are already spending an inordinate amount of time and effort posting nothing but drivel.

[Political Heretic]

80. I'm not a Chavez "critic."

I'm simply a grown up that gets that fact that there are no perfect saints in the world. Our government-corporate conglomerate lies, lies, lies about everything thing in the Americas and hates Chavez primarily because he stands up to international attempts to exploit the country and its people and takes that kind of radical action that is needed when it comes to land and wealth distribution.

But its not a utopia, and the government does a lot to avoid transparency on a lot of issues, as I listed up above in reply.

By the way, it wasn't some "sifting" excercise. If you would have bothered to do what I told you, you would have come right to a page with a list of specific indexed examples of what I'm talking about. But since even that's not good enough, I went back and copied it all over in a link for you.

[Judi Lynn]

81. You might be better advised to post the EIGHTY PAGES on the U.S. charges

listed by Human Rights Watch concerning its own host country and major source of funding, as opposed to the two pages you're pasting in on Venezuela.

Jose Miguel Vivanco is well known for his intense anti-Chavez rancor. His charges against the Venezuelan government are NOT Chavez-specific, and should be dealt with, one at a time, as I suggested, since he has thrown in claims and charges lodged by the Venezuelan oligarchy, many of which have been totally discounted, and which not been fully examined, investigated by Vivanco's organization.

He has always obeyed his master's bidding on leftist governments.

I suggested you post SPECIFIC charges which could be discussed concerning Hugo Chavez, as each one may be something pitched in as a political cannonball from the U.S.-financed Venezuelan oligarchy. Chose one to discuss and post it.

Otherwise, go ahead and copy and poste ALL EIGHTY PAGES IN THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH REPORT CONCERNING THE UNITED STATES.

You might want to explain why Jose Miguel Vivanco believes the United States should be able to fund the Venezuelan oligarchy efforts to destabilize the Venezuelan government, when that kind of funding is ILLEGAL in the United States from outside governments. It would be important getting your "take" on that.

As an example of what Jose Miguel Vivanco was doing in 2004, the year of the report you posted, see the following:

Human Rights Botch: Vivanco & Venezuela

Posted by Al Giordano - June 17, 2004 at 3:04 pm José Miguel Vivanco of Human Rights Watch today launched a media-attention-seeking attack on the Venezuelan government for a new law providing a process for impeachment of Supreme Court justices in that country. He held a press conference in Caracas, barking highly charged words in a report titled Venezuela: Judicial Independence Under Siege.

Vivanco and Human Rights Watch are now on record opposing a U.S.-modeled impeachment process for Supreme Court justices in Venezuela. The timing - two months before the August 15 referendum in that country - is obviously a partisan attempt to meddle in electoral politics.

Perhaps Vivanco and his bureaucrats should have done a little bit of research on the United States Constitution and American History before demonstrating such ignorance about democratic principles.

Before this essay is done, we will hear from Thomas Jefferson and Franklin Delano Roosevelt - whose stated principles on the appointment and impeachment of Supreme Court justices HRW has now gone against with this maneuver - on this question. But first let's consult a more recent U.S. president who spoke on this issue… Gerald R. Ford…

Four years before becoming president of the United States, Republican Congressman Gerald Ford spoke on the floor of the House of Representatives, calling for the impeachment, under the provisions allowed by the U.S. Constitution, of Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas.

Ford said:

What, then, is an impeachable offense? The only honest answer is that an impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history; conviction results from whatever offense or offenses two-thirds of the other body considers to be sufficiently serious to require removal of the accused from office.

- Source: Congressional Record #11,913 (1970), 116th Congress

The title of the Human Rights Watch report creates an impression that, prior to the presidency of Hugo Chavez, Venezuela had "judicial independence." That is a knowingly false statement, because in the text of the report, Vivanco and HRW admit that it never has had it. Their cruel joke against human rights is revealed by the inflammatory, knowingly false, language they use against a new judicial reform law in Venezuela.

The HRW report claims:

The new law, which President Chávez signed last month, expands the Supreme Court from 20 to 32 members. It empowers Chávez’s governing coalition to use its slim majority in the legislature to obtain an overwhelming majority of seats on the Supreme Court. The law also gives the governing coalition the power to nullify existing judges’ appointments to the bench.

Fact Check: The Venezuelan judicial impeachment process is virtually identical to that in the United States (a process about which the beltway-based Vivanco has been wholly silent for the entirety of his career). No authentic democracy can survive without the checks and balances that allow removal of court justices by Congress.

The United States constitution also provides for use of a "slim majority" to appoint Supreme Court Justices. (Remember the U.S. Senate battle over the nomination of Supreme Court Judge Clarence Thomas? Only fifty-percent plus one vote was required to install him: the same exact process that the hypocrite Vivanco attacks in Venezuela.).

More:
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/al-giordano/2004/06/human-rights-botch-vivanco-venezuela

[Political Heretic]

83. Two wrongs don't make a right. You asked me about Ven., not about the US.

Now you're criticizing me for giving you what you asked for.

:(

[ronnie624]

85. Deleted.

[Zorro]

75. Who's a DUer?

Are you the designated DU membership chairman who sets the rules for DUers?

Do you own the DemocraticUnderground website?

Are you implying that DUers are too lazy to go to the referenced website and read articles for themselves?

Do you think DUers can only get accurate information if someone provides editorial comment (or not) to a linked article?

[Judi Lynn]

82. Who's a DU'er? A Democrat. n/t

[Political Heretic]

79. It isn't sifting. If you had done what I told you, you'd come to a an organized list.

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=venezu


Venezuela

Venezuela: Proposed Amendments Threaten Basic Rights
Government Seeks Overbroad Emergency Powers for President
Amendments proposed to Venezuela’s constitution increasing presidential emergency powers would jeopardize the protection of fundamental rights at times when they are most needed, Human Rights Watch said today.
November 29, 2007 Press Release
Also available in spanish
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Venezuela: Investigate Pre-Referendum Violence
The Venezuelan authorities should carry out prompt, thorough and impartial investigations into all acts of violence committed against demonstrators both supporting and opposing the constitutional reforms proposed by the government, Human Rights Watch said today.
November 28, 2007 Press Release
Also available in spanish
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Venezuela: Disturbing Plan to Suspend Due Process
Chávez Supporters Seek to Suspend Rights in Emergencies
A constitutional amendment proposed by a pro-government committee in Venezuela’s National Assembly would allow the suspension of due process protections, Human Rights Watch said today.
October 16, 2007 Press Release
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Venezuela: TV Shutdown Harms Free Expression
The Venezuelan government’s politically motivated decision not to renew a television broadcasting license is a serious setback for freedom of expression in Venezuela, Human Rights Watch said today. The decision will shut down Radio Caracas Television (RCTV), the country’s oldest private channel, when its license expires on May 27, 2007.
May 22, 2007 Press Release
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Small Number of Countries Holding UN World Summit Hostage on Human Rights, Security, Poverty
Human Rights Watch, Oxfam International and Amnesty International call on a small number of “spoiler” countries to stop holding the UN World Summit hostage over crucial measures on human rights, security, genocide and poverty reduction. These governments have thrown negotiations on the final outcome text into crisis just days away from the biggest meeting of world leaders in history, September 14-16 in New York.
September 7, 2005 Press Release
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Venezuela: Court Orders Trial of Civil Society Leaders
In ordering the trial of four civil society leaders on dubious charges of treason, a Venezuelan court has assented to government persecution of political opponents, Human Rights Watch said today.
July 8, 2005 Press Release
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Venezuela: Rights Lawyer Faces Judicial Persecution
Criminal Investigation Launched to Intimidate Critic of Government’s Rights Record
The Venezuelan government should immediately halt criminal proceedings opened against one of Latin America’s most prominent human rights lawyers, Human Rights Watch said today.
April 5, 2005 Press Release
Also available in spanish
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Venezuela: Curbs on Free Expression Tightened
Amendments to Venezuela’s Criminal Code that entered into force last week may stifle press criticism of government authorities and restrict the public’s ability to monitor government actions, Human Rights Watch said today.
March 24, 2005 Press Release
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Venezuela: Chávez Allies Pack Supreme Court
The Venezuelan Congress dealt a severe blow to judicial independence by packing the country’s Supreme Court with 12 new justices, Human Rights Watch said today. A majority of the ruling coalition, dominated by President Hugo Chávez’s party, named the justices late yesterday, filling seats created by a law passed in May that expanded the court’s size by more than half.
December 14, 2004 Press Release
Also available in spanish
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Venezuela: Media Law Undercuts Freedom of Expression
A draft law to increase state control of television and radio broadcasting in Venezuela threatens to undermine the media’s freedom of expression, Human Rights Watch said today. Venezuela’s National Assembly, which has been voting article by article on the law, known as the Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television, is expected to approve it today.
November 24, 2004 Press Release
Also available in spanish
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Venezuela: Legal Means Used to Address Political Crisis
Referendum Process Strengthens Rule of Law, But Judiciary Still Faces Threats
By seeking to resolve its political crisis through a national referendum, Venezuela has taken an important step toward strengthening the rule of law, Human Rights Watch said today.
August 17, 2004 Press Release
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Venezuela: HRW Reiterates Concern Over New Supreme Court Law
In a memorandum published today, Human Rights Watch seeks to clarify some of the questions and misconceptions that have arisen in response to our recent report regarding threats to judicial independence in Venezuela.
July 14, 2004 Background Briefing
Also available in spanish

Testimony of José Miguel Vivanco
Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on Western Hemisphere, Peace Corps and Narcotics Affairs
Over the past year, President Chávez and his allies have taken steps to control Venezuela’s judicial branch. These steps undercut the separation of powers and the independence of judges. They violate basic principles of Venezuela’s constitution and international human rights law. And they represent the most serious threat to Venezuela’s fragile democracy since the 2002 coup.
July 7, 2004 Testimony
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Court-Packing Law Threatens Venezuelan Democracy
By José Miguel Vivanco and Daniel Wilkinson
Published in The Washington Post
When Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez faced a coup d'etat in April 2002, the international community roundly condemned the assault on Venezuela's constitutional order. Now, as he faces a recall referendum in August 2004, Chavez's own government threatens to undermine this country's fragile democracy through a political takeover of its highest court.
June 22, 2004 Commentary
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Venezuela: Judicial Independence Under Siege
The Venezuelan government is undermining the independence of the country’s judiciary ahead of a presidential recall referendum that may ultimately be decided in the courts, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. President Chávez’s governing coalition has begun implementing a new court-packing law that will strip the Supreme Court of its autonomy.
June 17, 2004 Press Release
Also available in spanish
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Rigging the Rule of Law
Judicial Independence Under Siege in Venezuela
The Venezuelan government is undermining the independence of the country’s judiciary ahead of a presidential recall referendum that may ultimately be decided in the courts. President Chávez’s governing coalition has begun implementing a new court-packing law that will strip the Supreme Court of its autonomy. This 24-page report examines how the new law will make judges more vulnerable to political persecution and help ensure that legal controversies surrounding the recall referendum are resolved in Chávez’s favor.
HRW Index No.: B1603
June 17, 2004 Report
Also available in spanish
Download PDF, 271 KB, 26 pgs
Purchase online

Letter to President Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías
In a letter sent to President Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías, HRW expressed deep concern about credible reports documenting that National Guard and police officers beat and tortured people who were detained during the recent protests in Caracas and other Venezuelan cities.
April 12, 2004 Letter
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Venezuela: Investigate Charges of Abuses Against Protestors
The Venezuelan government should conduct a thorough investigation into allegations that state security forces have beaten and abused detained protestors this week, Human Rights Watch said today. The investigation should also examine the circumstances of killings that occurred during confrontations between protesters and police.
March 5, 2004 Press Release
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Venezuela: Official Press Agency Distorts Human Rights Watch’s Position
Venezuela’s official government press agency has published an article that distorts Human Rights Watch’s position on freedom of expression, Human Rights Watch said today.
October 28, 2003 Press Release
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Venezuela's Supreme Court Upholds Prior Censorship and "Insult Laws"
Venezuela's Supreme Court Upholds Prior Censorship and "Insult Laws"
A decision by the Venezuelan Supreme Court upholding prior censorship is a major setback for freedom of expression, Human Rights Watch said today.
July 18, 2003 Press Release
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Venezuela: Limit State Control of Media
Letter to President Chavez
The main purpose of this letter is to urge President Chavez to take steps to address serious threats to freedom of the press in Venezuela
July 1, 2003 Letter

Caught In The Crossfire:
Freedom of Expression in Venezuela
The Venezuelan government is not doing enough to protect journalists from violence, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today. Human Rights Watch also urged the government to protect freedom of expression by ending its ongoing investigation of the country’s private television networks, and dramatically revising its proposed law to regulate the contents of radio and television broadcasts. The launch of Human Rights Watch’s report coincides with renewed public debate in Venezuela over draft legislation that the government of President Hugo Chávez has introduced on the “social responsibility of radio and television.” The draft legislation would impose stringent and detailed controls over radio and television broadcasts, greatly limiting what could be aired during normal viewing hours. Under the guise of protecting children from crude language, sexual situations and violence, it would subject adults to restrictive and puritanical viewing standards. The 26-page report describes how journalists face physical violence and threats, often by fervent civilian supporters of President Hugo Chávez. Noting the justice system’s failure to identify and punish those responsible for the attacks, the report recommends that the attorney general set up a special panel to investigate the problem.
HRW Index No.: B1503
May 21, 2003 Report

[ronnie624]

73. The key to obtaining accurate information

about the current events in Latin America, is to read from a variety of sources, including books about the history and motives of U.S. involvement there. When you become sufficiently informed, you will have no problem discerning the difference between good information and bad.

[ohio2007]

72. This story was put out in March when troops raided the camp on Hugo's side of the border

Unless it shows videos of Hugo banging 10 year olds...it isn't LBN

?

[HuffleClaw]

78. *yawn*

gotta love that 'found computer' stuff