10-Year-Old Girl Gives Birth, Illegal Immigrant Charged with Rape

[OhioChick]

Source: TransWorldNews

Atlanta, Ga. 5/08/2008 02:10 PM GMT (FINDITT - Top Story)

Police in Idaho have arrested a suspected illegal immigrant and charged him with raping a 10-year-old girl who later gave birth.

Guadalupe Gutierrez-Juarez, 37 was arrested by St. Anthony, Idaho police after medical officials notified authorities of a young girl who was pregnant on April 28. Police arrested Gutierrez-Juarez that day following several witnesses coming forward and providing information.

The 10-year-old girl reportedly gave birth about two weeks ago at Madison Memorial Hospital but there have been no details about the baby or the mother.

Gutierrez-Juarez has been charged with one count of rape and is currently in jail with bail set at $250,000. Investigators have not ruled out additional rape charges against the man.





Read more: http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=45940&cat=0

---

How awful....she's just a child herself.

[Mike Daniels]

1. Yes, these crimes are also committed by legal residents & and citizens of the US

That said, if he's found guilty deport his ass as soon as he's done his time.

[ORDagnabbit]

7. true...but if he was not in the country the little girl would never have been raped.

[heliarc]

13. A foreign girl would have been... not an improvement in my book. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

77. So we have a moral obligation to suffer as much crime as other countries? n/t

[heliarc]

92. I didn't say anything about morality...

but since you asked... I think that human rights are just as important as civil rights. Whining and moaning about how this person was an illegal immigrant and committed a crime is besides the point. I'd love to see your figures on how crime of this kind is worse in other countries, or that crime committed by illegal immigrants surpasses crime committed by Americans.

Since you asked. There is a moral obligation to provide for the successful rehabilitation of oppressed Native American populations (of whom the Mexican Population shares a history) who have found themselves caught in a desperate struggle to provide for their families and live lives of comparable equality to their european transgressors. A desperate struggle that US industry exacerbates by knowingly hiring illegal immigrants en masse for Agricultural, meat packing, service, and food preparation and then blaming the immigrants for the problem. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue at hand, except that there are quite a few people participating in the thread who apparently don't feel that a common understanding of dignity and "human" rights should translate into a respect for any foreigner on a shared plane...

Civil rights enjoyed by americans are denied foreigners, which I see as an insult to my own understanding of how humanity should measure itself. I don't see myself as any better than anyone else on this planet because I'm American. I really don't, and I believe that any truly moral or ethical metric wouldn't gauge someone's worth by where geographically they were born or by their nationality. (Though sometime I think I'm in the minority when I hear people who support the Iraq war mourn the loss of 4000 Americans while they shrug off the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis)

I have a BIG problem with the way in which INS goes so far as to deny Illegal immigrants many of the rights we enjoy as Americans, simply because they are not from the US. There are quite a few cases where the disrespect for human rights has gone so far as to separate children from a parent whose American spouse had passed away. The logic of cases like this or of cases where immigrants on the border are mistreated/raped/killed/beaten etc is insane. In my humble opinion, and I'm sure that I will be flamed for this: I believe that Agents of the US government should be forced to treat Immigrants as American citizens until they are deported. We have high standards for our own rights and I believe that those high standards shouldn't just include citizens of the "US." We have high standards because we respect our own humanity. Last time I checked there wasn't a US Patent on "humanity"

That being said, I think the rape and neglect concerns here are the most important issues. The illegal status of the assailant is just a silly side note that is posing as the most important problem.

[lumberjack_jeff]

110. What you said that a crime that is prevented from occuring in this country...

... is no improvement since the criminal most likely would offend in his own country instead.

I disagree. As a citizen, I have some influence over our laws and the way they are implemented. If crime in this country - the one I have some influence in - is prevented by preventing criminals from entering the country surreptitiously it's a good thing. The citizens of other countries must deal with their own criminals.

[heliarc]

118. How do you know that he would have committed the crime here or there?

Do you have some sort of "minority report" "pre-crime" machine?

I didn't say that we shouldn't deport people. I was making a very different point. My point was that people in the states regardless of their naturalization status, should be treated with dignity, and I would say that 60 to 80 percent of the time they are not. I may be in the small minority of people who believe that the man who they have arrested for this crime should be given all of the rights and responsibilities that we enjoy as citizens including the responsibility to pay for the crime committed. My problem is the simple fact that by putting the cart before the horse (immigration status before crime committed), the criminal is eschewed into the ether. No code governs his humane or inhumane treatment in the states... and very possibly he will be deported to face (or not to face) harsh penalty in some other country that may or may not even have the resources to detain him, that is; if he survives detainment, which illegal immigrants sometimes do not. My point is that this sad fact --that somehow there aren't legal rights to due process or humane treatment-- causes a gross ethical vacuum from which we can claim no moral authority at all.

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. I know he committed the crime here.

Do I know that "A foreign girl would have been (raped if he had stayed in his home country)... not an improvement in my book. nt"?

No, I don't. In fact, I would disagree with that statement because the offender is known to the people in his hometown.

I want the citizens and those who follow the laws of this country (both when entering and once they get here) to be treated with dignity. Lawbreakers, not so much. Perhaps if the person in question had been treated with some small measure of the indignity with which he treated his victim, he would have stayed home.

[heliarc]

126. Are you really arguing that he wouldn't have raped someone he knew?

Rape isn't only committed against people the rapist doesn't know. There are plenty of cases of rape where family members are involved even. I'm actually not sure if this is your position. Please clarify.

As to the lawbreakers comment. I want Lawbreakers of US, and foreign nationality to be treated equally in punishment and in legal protection. Anything less is inhumane in my opinion. And quite a lot of the current standards of legal protection are inhumane and should be improved upon in my opinion too.

Are you suggesting that it would have been right to rape this man in order to keep him away? "Small measure of the indignity"? Do you mean that he should be beaten at the border by the apprehending officers? That's what it sounds like. There, you may be in line with the Minutemen who rape women crossing the border to work in our Tyson foods plants, and farms. Our laws don't protect them. They are not citizens. So people like the minutemen use that to their advantage to rape and/or disappear immigrants at the border in order to dissuade them just as you prescribe. I hope this isn't your wish.

[knixphan]

111. I don't see myself as any better than anyone else on this planet because I'm American

Seconded!

[xioaping]

112. That's changing the subject

The question is...what was the question again? Oh yea, should we let all the criminals from other countries come into the U.S. just because we as Americans are not better than they are?

And the answer is....

[heliarc]

119. Well that's a good start...

because right now the laws of this country are silent on the equality of foreigners and their rights while visiting this country.

People are dying at the border, dying in custody, being raped, beaten, etc because no one is forced by law to respect their human dignity. I'm glad you agree than people regardless of their nationality should be treated like people.

[AlphaCentauri]

98. It's to hard to judge by morals when people re-elected a lier in the white house

I bet any immigrant would agree this rapist should expend the rest of his life in jail but on the other hand we have a lier in the white house which cause a lot rapes, murders and destruction in other countries and we just get along with it contemplating his work of art and crime.

[xioaping]

113. With no border control anyone comes in, even rapist

If we are going to let so many people come in, then we just need to do background checks to little 10 year old girls do not need to be raped

[neoteric lefty]

14. tell me...

how him being undocumented has anything to do with thus crime he is accused of committing. We can play this game all day long. IF he had never be conceived, then this little girl would have not been raped. If he had moved to California instead of Georgia, then this little girl would have not been raped. If he was shot in the head by a racist bigot 2 weeks prior, then this little girl would have not been raped. There are an infinite scenarios where this girl would have not been raped, but sadly, she was. We, as a society, must find the person(s) responsible for this crime, and punish them to the fullest extent of the law.

[marshall]

17. I suppose they are implying a disregard for the law

Not everything in your list is against the law--in fact only a racially motivated murder is illegal.

[treestar]

20. Disregard for the immigration laws does not mean disregard of

the criminal law.

In fact, it rarely does.

That this guy is illegal is irrelevant.

One wonders if this is even true. It is such an obvious anti-immigrant hit piece. If the guy did such a horrible thing, his immigration status would be way down on the list of concerns.

[marshall]

30. True, I was just referring to the intention of the headline writer

I suppose it's more unusual to have an "illegal immigrant" in Idaho than it is in Texas or southern California, where his citizenship status would probably not even warrant a mention in the first paragraph.

[depakid]

54. Idaho has a long history of migrant farmworkers

Check the date on this little gem, for example: http://www.idahohistory.net/Reference%20Series/0214.pdf

Unfortunately, it also has a more recent history of virulent white separatism.

Which is entirely consistent with authorities and local "news" promoting this sort of headline....

[Xenotime]

97. Like the saying goes..."When in Rome do as the Romans do."

He probably just following how people here treat their children and thought it was ok. With all the shit going on with Miley Cyrus and other teen girls. He just figured it was ok.

[knight_of_the_star]

117. That is a truly atrocious statement

So how about showing proof that the parents in the community where that happened rape their 10 year old daughters regularly?

[heliarc]

120. You're right... he wasn't on the FLDS camp...

:sarcasm:

[knight_of_the_star]

122. Thank you for playing completely missed the point

One highly unusual case a rule does not make and I still contend the previous post was atrocious.

[heliarc]

124. No... I think that I understand the point that quite a few are making...

People here are making the point that his immigrant status is more important than the crime committed, or that somehow INS officials should have somehow foreseen this crime. I was simply pointing out that the rape of a minor is just as bad whether you are American or NOT.

I'm frankly very offended at the nationalist (almost Fascist display) of anxiety over immigration in this thread and I think that atrocious statements like the original one point out how silly the argument is.

In the interest of good faith, I will agree that the statement crosses lines... but, there is a lot here that crosses the line in order to somehow suggest that crimes like this are acceptable abroad, or that evil lurks outside our borders. Nonsense. I think the very dramatic statement about miley cyrus didn't quite make the point well enough. We have plenty of American child rapists. The FLDS is a great example. Where do we get off blaming this man's naturalization status for the rape of that poor girl?

[knight_of_the_star]

129. Here's why

"We have plenty of American child rapists."

Unregulated immigration would allow for more to come into the country quite potentially. Not all illegal immigrants are criminals, but if we do not regulate immigration at all or in a meaningful fashion then how can we keep out those who should be kept out due to criminal activities and records?

[High Plains]

130. Sounds like an argument for comprehensive immigration reform.

You know, like the bill in Congress last year that all the anti-immigrant freaks managed to kill.

[knight_of_the_star]

133. I'm in favor of regulated immigration

My issue with illegal immigrants is:

1.) They are breaking the law

2.) Because of the manner in which they come into the country we cannot keep out really bad people and cannot ensure, like most other countries do, we will be getting someone with valuable skills that will help the country

3.) They drive down the wages of Americans who are working in fields they enter. Construction used to be an all-union field with good wages and benefits before the market was flooded with cheap labor, effectively killing the unions.

4.) Some do want to stay, but there are a lot who get paid and send most of their money across the border, siphoning it out of the country and serving as a drain rather than a contribution to the economy.

Immigration needs to be regulated with a sane, rational and consistent policy not a political football used to garner votes.

[heliarc]

145. My problem with your reforms focus

1) Industry is driving immigrants to break the law. -- Tyson Foods, WalMart-- Some of the largest employers in this country suffer no significant penalties for hiring illegal immigrants, and since they have no incentive to hire Americans who require higher wages, we find that illegal immigrants flood our job market. You are blaming illegal immigrants for US govt economic policy, and corporate strategies.

2) And Americans want the cheapest prices and ever increasing stock values which puts increased pressure on companies with large labor force requirements like Agriculture and the major manufacturing companies to cut costs. Instead of requiring companies to hire union and American, and regulating golden parachutes for CEO's and corporate executives, the companies have no competetive choice but to send jobs overseas or hire cheap alien labor. The truth is that there isn't a real market for american goods unless they compete. Even American apparel which has some of the highest wages for textile workers worldwide doesn't compete at the price point. Right now there isn't a sufficient price barrier to American CEO's moving capital to Southeast asia and then importing product into the country to sell at a premium. The Corporations are siphoning off capital out of the country in far greater sums than illegal immigrants who send a couple thousand dollars home a year.

3) As the son of immigrants to this country who were exiled because of US foreign policy, there is another point to be made that US hegemony abroad puts economic and political pressure on populations to relocate and the US is a great alternative to the weak markets that South America provides its people. My parents immigrated legally, but were it not the case that my mother had an American mother, I think they would have tried to escape oppression in whatever way they could... including illegally entering a country if it meant saving my life or putting food on the table.

[Dogtown]

15. *Supposing* he's guilty

and we have NO way of knowing that at this time,
you could be right, but then some other child in another country would have been raped.

That doesn't resolve the issue, and racism is the motivator for such comments, and for this being Front Page News.

If he'd had a green card, they just would have given his name w/o the "suspected illegal immigrant" epithet, leaving you to assume he was illegal and judge him for both crimes before he is tried.

[ismnotwasm]

16. Not by that individual

One of the things about living in a rape culture there is no way you can guarantee the child wouldn't have been raped.
What a bullshit thing to say.

[struggle4progress]

31. Yes, and if all the Caucasians would go back to Europe, they wouldn't be raping folk here either

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TalkingDog]

70. Nice troll.... 10 points for lol sarcasm

But be careful.

That low post count will have people thinking you are serious.

At this point, you are a guest. A newbie joining the old crowd. It's very easy to raise hackles by trying to be too cool too soon.

Otherwise, welcome to DU. Enjoy yourself.

[leftynyc]

76. Try a different site

You've obviously made a wrong turn.

[xioaping]

114. We have no border control so rapists come in.

Pretty simple concept. Let everyone in that wants to come in, just make sure they go through a background check. Relax all other standards on income, ability to speak English, whatever. But make sure that the ones that are coming in are not criminals.

Playing the race card on this issue is total bull shit!

[heliarc]

125. The article doesn't list any priors.

Did he rape anyone in Mexico? Perhaps, but I wonder if that's a given.

[xioaping]

127. Processing centers with relaxed immigration standards but...

screen for ciminals.

I was not responding to the specific incident as much as I was talking about the horribly unfair way we have dealt with immigration. We should have registered people if we were going to let them come in to the country, even if that meant will significantly relaxed standards.

The standard that should not be relaxed is that we can not allow known criminal to come into the country. It can not be denied that we have let criminals come in.

[High Plains]

131. No border control? What are you talking about?

We have thousands of Border Patrol agents.

We have cops in lots of states and locales hunting for undocumented workers.

But we also have millions of people trying to cross our southern border.

Our immigration system is broken--does not reflect the reality that our economy uses millions of imported laborers--and it needs a comprehensive fix.

[xioaping]

135. I think we agree

If millions are coming across without the ability to get a driver's license and be regular residentst then there is a problem, right? And if people are coming in that are known criminals because we are not doing background checks thent that is a problem, right?

And when someone here pays taxes and wants to bring a daughter of mother they can not and that is a problem, right? Work hard have a business and can not leave the business which is helping pay taxes so the only way to see your daughter is to close the shop. It does not make sense.

[heliarc]

146. I still haven't seen anyone prove that this man was a "known criminal"

I'd like a link please.

[xioaping]

147. I don't think he was

I view this incident seperately from the whole issue. I see others are trying to link it. My view I hope was clear.

[struggle4progress]

39. And if the US had not military bases in Japan, local women there wouldn't be raped by base soldiers

[heliarc]

62. Booya... Exactly

Didn't we just see a report about masked men who aprehended Immigrants at the US border and raped them?

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=8274339

Sounds like the anger people here are feeling about illegal immigrants is strangely absent about rape in general. Rape has to do with Male power which has always been energized by the State (see anything by Mick Taussig). It strikes me that something as horrible as this rape is masked by the border divisions.

...which just happen to be arbitrarily set by blood, treasure and hegemonic force.

[AngryAmish]

78. But it is not that simple

“Class is impossible,” says Baudrillard. The characteristic theme of von Junz’s analysis of socialism is a self-sufficient whole. Therefore, if the subdialectic paradigm of reality holds, we have to choose between socialism and neocapitalist dialectic theory.

In the works of Rushdie, a predominant concept is the concept of precapitalist narrativity. Prinn implies that the works of Rushdie are modernistic. It could be said that many narratives concerning the common ground between language and society may be revealed.

The primary theme of the works of Rushdie is a mythopoetical reality. If the subdialectic paradigm of reality holds, we have to choose between the conceptualist paradigm of narrative and neodeconstructive discourse. In a sense, the characteristic theme of Sargeant’s model of Lacanist obscurity is the rubicon, and thus the futility, of cultural sexual identity.

The example of the subdialectic paradigm of reality which is a central theme of Gaiman’s Neverwhere emerges again in Black Orchid, although in a more self-justifying sense. But the primary theme of the works of Gaiman is not, in fact, sublimation, but postsublimation.

Lyotard suggests the use of Lacanist obscurity to attack the status quo. However, in Stardust, Gaiman affirms the premodernist paradigm of expression; in Death: The High Cost of Living, although, he denies Lacanist obscurity.

The characteristic theme of von Junz’s analysis of the subdialectic paradigm of reality is the bridge between society and class. Therefore, Sartre promotes the use of Lacanist obscurity to challenge culture.

Parry<6> states that we have to choose between socialism and neocultural nationalism. In a sense, the dialectic paradigm of context suggests that the State is capable of significant form, given that reality is equal to art.

The subject is interpolated into a subdialectic paradigm of reality that includes narrativity as a totality. Thus, if Lacanist obscurity holds, we have to choose between the subdialectic paradigm of reality and subsemioticist textual theory

[struggle4progress]

88. "It's broccoli, dear" .... "I say it's spinach, and I say the hell with it"

http://www.compedit.com.nyud.net:8090/Image2.gif

[struggle4progress]

89. Dada engine?

http://dev.null.org/dadaengine/

[High Plains]

132. Yeah, what he said: "Lacanist obscurity."

I think.

Class is impossible, says Baudrillard. Baudrillard is silly, says High Plains. Crawl back into your subdialectical paradigm, Jean.

[spotbird]

85. Firefighter arrested on rape and child sexual abuse charges

Therefore all firefighters are rapists.

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=8292390&nav=menu31_2

--------------------------

Saratoga Springs man arrested for rape and kidnapping of child

Therefore men from Saratoga Springs are child rapists.

http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=9febf795-a0ab-4ff3-b887-c7dbc79fded9


---------------------------------


It's hard to believe there is such stupidity.

[proud2BlibKansan]

134. So full blooded American citizens never rape girls?

Huh?

[Igel]

33. Child support?

Two options:

1. Deport him, and make child support impossible.

2. Keep him here, and reward him--acknowledging that he'll probably skip out on child support.

For legal residents, you have (2) by default, without the reward. And probably with easier ways of tracking him.

[Warpy]

2. That little girl will have life long health issues

after being forced to give birth at such a young age.

That's the second crime here.

[Maine-ah]

4. agreed

Poor child. :cry:

[uppityperson]

3. Statutory rapists need to be prosecuted. Rapists need to be prosecuted.

That poor kid. Meaning the 10 yr old.

[Texano78704]

123. Prosecuted?

Prosecute statutory rapists? We would have a hell of a lot of teenage boys in jail for no good reason.

[TheWraith]

5. Are there any other sources on this?

I have a hard time believing that a 10 year old could actually sustain a pregnancy long enough to give birth.

[OhioChick]

8. Do a quick search....it's everywhere.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/05/10-year-old-giv.html

http://www.nbc5i.com/news/16199337/detail.html

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/16199337/detail.html

Just a few.....it "is" true.

[Lennon]

11. The youngest girl to give birth

was only 5 years old.

http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/medina.asp

[mikelgb]

80. wow, I wonder if this 10 year old had a pituitary issue

but 10 is a lot closer to 12 than 5!

crazy

[barnel]

6. not everything about open borders is 'compassion'

just ask the 10 year old mother

what's Carlos Slim's role in all of this?

(Mexican telco tycoon, richest man in the world)

why is he always exempt for all these talks about 'a better life'?

doesnt seem like he feels much responsibility, other than profiting from the money wired back to Mexico

[LanternWaste]

12. I would hazard a safe bet...

"not everything about open borders is 'compassion'"

Rape would still exist regardless of whether our borders are completely open or completely closed. As a matter of fact, I would hazard a safe bet that more rapes happen in America by Americans than by immigrants...

Attempting to tie this into this into the immigration debate is disingenuous at best...

[barnel]

21. no, it's not

the fact that a person commiting a crime shouldnt have been there in the first place is a well established principal

if a citizen harms someone with their car, and their license is suspended, the ruling is harsh because they shouldnt have been driving in the first place

it's the same thing

[OhioChick]

23. I've Never Thought of it That Way.

Good Point.

[barnel]

24. and further

in the example of the car, the person who aided them in access to the car shares in the liability

[depakid]

29. That's one of the best examples of sophistry I've ever heard

A 2 fer for this thread....

Sophistry:

1. An argument that seems plausible, but is fallacious or misleading, especially one devised deliberately to be so.

2. The art of using deceptive speech or writing.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sophistry

Depa's definition: an argument that seems formally valid, but it materially worthless.

[barnel]

36. actually, that describes what you just did

because you made no attempt to map it to what i was saying whatsoever

[depakid]

44. Got a larger category called "critical thinking"

which is all too rarely practiced.

Crimes like this are far more likely to be perpetrated by a demented backwoods "uncle," a family "friend," or a "respected" member of the FLDS church.

But let's not let those facts get in the way of an opportunity to connive and manipulate people on immigration issues.

[barnel]

46. you can make a point without accusing

and you win more people over that way

[heliarc]

60. Won me over...

but maybe I'm suspect of the motives that wrote this article to begin with.

[xioaping]

138. Nobody is manipulating anyone

It does not matter where else the same crime might be committed. The point is that this crime would not have been committed. You are side-stepping the issue.

[xioaping]

136. Logic 101 says your are correct n/t

[ismnotwasm]

32. Comparing child rape

And a car accident on a suspended license to make a point about immigration is pretty fucked up.

A more accurate picture is that rape, including child rape occurs far too frequently, is underreported and is prosecuted inefficiently is more to the point than anything to do with any type of immigration.

What made this a story is the age of the child who gave birth. Not the rape, and not who raped her. If not, it would have been a rape as usual story-- that never seems to bother certain folks that much.

[barnel]

40. the issue is legal standing

it applies to citizens at all times

if you are in a situation, that you shouldnt have been in because of legal status, you bear far greater responsibility

- if you're a felon and involved in a shooting, you werent supposed to have the gun in the first place

- if you're in a fight, and the place was off limits by terms of probation, it's on the person who shouldnt have been there

on and on

CITIZENS have to abide by this

it's insane that foreign nationals are exempt from these principals

[LanternWaste]

50. It's also insane that we place a greater value on imaginary red and blue lines

It's also insane that we place a greater value on imaginary red and blue lines on maps than we do on humanity...

[barnel]

52. Carlos Slim (of Mexico), richest man in the world thanks you

because of thinking like yours, he doesnt have to help his people, after all, he only makes 2 million dollars an hour - why should he sacrifice when you can pay his share?

March 14, 2007 — Carlos Slim, the Mexican tycoon just a hair from being the world’s richest man, scoffed yesterday at Bill Gates and Warren Buffett for “playing Santa Claus” to cure poverty’s ills.

Slim climbed on his meanie soapbox just days after his $49 billion fortune was ranked by Forbes as the third-richest behind that No. 1 Gates and No. 2 Buffett - only a few billion shy from eclipsing them both.

“Poverty isn’t solved with donations,”

http://www.theatlasphere.com/metablog/614.php

not HIS donations anyway, that's where YOU and I come in

he doesnt have to worry about people in the streets demanding social justice. thanks to your thinking, he can just send them across 'the imaginary line' out of his sight, and mind

[LanternWaste]

38. I'm afraid you've lost me--

I'm afraid you've lost me-- I'm not a very bright person you see. Are you saying that the ruling should be harsher for this guy because he's an immigrant? If not, what precisely are you saying...? Thanks...

[barnel]

47. not for being an immigrant

but for being here ILLEGALLY

dont understand that?

try crossing Mexico's border illegally, and committing a crime

they'll explain it to you

[LanternWaste]

49. So-- we punish him more for being here because he's on the wrong side

So-- we punish him more for being here because he's on the wrong side of an imaginary red and blue line on a map?

(I did cross MX's border illegally-- lived there for eighteen months-- had good access to health care too.)

[barnel]

51. no more imaginary than the taxes that are collected to defend it

all the freaking money spent on 'defense' isnt the border the number 1 thing you defend?

here's a concept 6 billion people on this earth, growing every day THEY CANT ALL COME HERE.

yes, we punish him for being on that side of the line without permission

that, and for raping a 10 year old kid

watch this short video with an open mind

tell me what part you dont agree with

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=numbersusa&hl=en&sitesearch=

[bjorkfan]

65. That's the whole debate about overpopulation....

If overpopulation and the environment is enough of a concern to limit the family size of people born in the country, then it must apply to limit the number of people immigrating into the country.

[barnel]

73. yes

another nation's choice about population is their right and their business

but the consequences of that choice do NOT give them the right to dictate immigration policy to MY country

that may sound harsh, but the problem is this

if a country makes the sacrifices to control their population, then other nations say 'you're not making babies, so we're moving in' what incentive is there, for a nation to control it's population? all you're doing, is replacing yourself, you're not preserving anything for the offspring that you do have - you punish those who preserve, and reward those who overpopulate with political and georgraphic conquest

that's no solution to overpopulation

and without a solution to overpopulation, environmentalism is a complete waste of time, because it's hopeless

and if you give up on environmentalism, you've given up on everything

(founder of NumbersUSA, Roy Beck, was/is an environmental journalist - he connected all the above dots)

[np33]

53. Those lines

Aren't imaginary those lines on the map are for the United State' sovereignty so please do not dismiss it some small technicality.

[treestar]

103. Who cares what side of the border a rapist is on?

If he committed it in Mexico or in Timbuctoo it would be just as bad.

His immigration status is the least relevant thing here. An illegal alien can be deported whether they commit a crime or not.

[xioaping]

115. I don;t want them crossing over onto this side. Do you?

[heliarc]

59. Principle...

not principal... sorry. I hate being the spelling police, but some things bug me a lot.

[Pastiche423]

63. What a crock of shit!

It matters not one wit where the rapist is from or whether he is in the country legally.

WHAT MATTERS, is that a 37 year old man raped and impregnated a ten year old child.

Take your fucking racism elsewhere.

[barnel]

74. how is acknowledging legal status 'racism'?

and watch your language

[Pastiche423]

83. I will say any fucking thing I care to

This story is about a ten year old child that was raped and impregnated by an older man.

That is the story, not what piece of land they were on when it happened. I am much more concerned about the ten year old girl and her baby by rape, than I am the spot where it happened.

You see, some of us DUers have a heart and we care about the defenseless.

[xioaping]

116. Playing the race card on this issue is total bull shit!

[treestar]

22. Exactly. It is highly suspicious that his immigration status is of

any concern. Anyone who is using that as an anti-immigrant point has no compassion for the plight of the girl.

And notice the media never covers any illegal immigrant doing anything good. If those people had not been here illegally, that good thing might not have happened.

[ToughLuck]

9. You can't ignore that Republicans would not support illegal immigration

when they had the chance...they want blood from these people now and will not view this case with any rationale. This guy needs to be jailed for life as far as I am concerned, not because he is here illegally but because ANYONE who does this, loses their right to walk free once convicted.

[rubberducky]

10. A child having a child. Will a jury consider that this animal robbed this child of her childhood?

What the HELL is wrong with a man could do this to a child? God, this is sssooo sick. This story is a heart-breaker for the innocent baby and the equally innocent "mother".

[mcollier]

26. Why the surprise

ask a hundred people if they were sexally abused as a child and the answer would probably be yes for about 70%.

[Quantess]

34. Too many children have been sexually abused,

but it isn't 70%. Not even close.

[OhioChick]

35. I Agree

That figure sounds to be too high.

[rubberducky]

75. No surprise here. So sad to admit, I`ve been there.

[Kali]

18. why in the hell wasn't this girl given an abortion?

[One_Life_To_Give]

25. Too Scared to tell anyone?

What seems so simple and obvious to us, is very different in the mind of a child. Did she even know she was expecting? Was she aware of what could/might be done about it? Was she too afraid/ashamed to go to an adult for help? Or did the adults let her down?

[rebecca_herman]

94. Either adults kept the pregnancy hidden, or no one knew

It's possible that her parents or guardians knew about the rape and tried to hide the pregnancy to help the perpetrator. But it's also possible that no one knew until she was too far along for an abortion. There was a 10 year old girl in my area who became pregnant from rape a few years ago. She hadn't been feeling well so her mother took her to the doctor, turned out she was over six months pregnant and she then admitted that a neighbor she had been spending time with had been raping her. She gave birth a few weeks after that and she recovered fine physically (emotionally she may never, obviously). Unfortunately the baby had serious health problems and I'm not sure what happened to it. Sad story for everyone involved.

[Xithras]

27. By the sound of it, abortion wasn't an option.

The doctors notified the police on the 28th when they found out about it, and the baby was born two weeks ago. Two weeks ago today was the 24th. My guess is that the girl was kept away from the doctors until she was in labor or about to be.

Abortions are SOP when the pregnancies are caught in the first two trimesters in these cases. At the minimum, it appears that she was in her third trimester when it was discovered, and probably not until she went into labor.

This, of course, means that others were involved and need to be prosecuted. You can't hide a pregnant 10 year old from everybody, which means that people KNEW she was pregnant and didn't talk. They need to be sitting in a jail cell right next to this guy.

[MessiahRp]

19. I've heard anti-abortion fundies say this before...

If a girl is raped, they should not consider their pregnancy a tragedy and terminate it, they should consider it a blessing from god and keep the baby...

So according to their logic this girl is blessed. Even though she's probably not even in middle school yet.

Rp

[BigDaddy44]

82. Well the fact is, now there is a baby

And I for one am not prepared to determine that baby shouldn't exist. The baby is now here, and needs to be cared for. So the whole abortion question is totally moot.

[depakid]

28. If that's not the most inflammatory headline I've ever heard....

[Megahurtz]

41. Why is the headline inflammatory?

An illegal immigrant who should not be here illegally in the first place who is a pedophile and goes and rapes a 10 year old girl is inflammatory to me.

I say cut off his entire appendage! :mad:

I've fucking sick of rapists and pedophiles! They can all fucking die for all I care.

[OhioChick]

43. Well Said. n/t

[depakid]

45. Your emotional reactions prove my point

One suspects that headlines such as these were common rhetorical themes in, say- the Balkans, circa the early 1990's.

And people likely reacted to them in the same way.

You can also go back several decades earlier and see this sort of deal all too often in the American South. Different targets- same emotional reactions.

[np33]

55. Agreed

They can be dropped in the deepest pits of hell for all I care. What a fucked up case!

[Mad_Dem_X]

57. !

:applause:

[Ellen Forradalom]

66. It conflates two unrelated issues: illegal immigration and rape

The manner in which this story is written suggests that his immigration status bears on his abominable behavior. It does not. Citizens can be rapists, and illegal immigrants are often law-abiding. That is why it is inflammatory.

[Gormy Cuss]

48. And based on some of the reaction here and in other site comments, quite effective.

Some people are focusing more on his immigration status rather than the horror of his deed.

[kskiska]

56. It sure is - Suppose the girl is an illegal, too?

No mention of that. It's become de rigeur for Repugs to scout out crimes committed by illegals. Why was this girl forced to carry a rapist's fetus to term and give birth (by Caesarian section) at the age of 10?

[nam78_two]

69. It can be read as conflating two separate issues I guess

The unfortunate result of that sometimes is that a discussion of the horror of the crime is eschewed in favor of discussion about this person's visa status, illegal immigrants etc. etc. The very thing I am guilty of right now as well :-/.

This story is really pretty tragic though. Besides, how could they make this child give birth :shrug:? She is 10! There are so many awful stories like this breaking right now- this case, then that recent Austrian case of Josef Fritzl who imprisoned and impregnated his own daughter, the FLDS church, the NJ pedophile ring bust and on and on...

And I just saw this awful story yesterday:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080508/interpol_suspect_080508/20080508?hub=World

It is one messed up world :-(.

[SunDrop23]

37. OK...question...who in THE HELL allows their 10 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER to carry a child to term?

And the product of a rape at that?
And what parent is so out of touch with their 10 year old daughter that they somehow don't know she's pregnant?

Well I guess this is a win for the 'pro-life' crowd...

[Megahurtz]

42. I was thinking the exact same thing!

:wtf:

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muriel_volestrangler]

71. It seems that the father raped his own daughter

This headline was later changed, but the Google cache of it is still available. I know this is an intrusion into her privacy (though her life has been ruined so much that the appearance of this on DU can hardly make it worse now), which is probably why it was changed to just 'allegedly raped' with no identification of the relationship, but maybe this will stop the "would it have happened if he wasn't an illegal immigrant" argument here:

10-year-old gives birth; baby's father allegedly raped her

Story Created: May 8, 2008 at 12:27 PM MDT
By Nate Eaton - KIDK
Video
REXBURG - A 10-year-old girl is a mother this week after giving birth to a new baby.

But, this is more than just a sad story from Eastern Idaho - it's likely criminal because officials say the father raped the 10-year-old girl.

Several sources confirm a 10-year-old girl from St. Anthony gave birth to a little girl on Saturday at Madison Memorial Hospital in Rexburg. The girl was allegedly raped by Guadalupe Gutierrez-Juarez, 37, - an illegal immigrant who sits in the Fremont County Jail on rape charges.

Gutierrez-Juarez was arrested April 29 after medical personnel alerted police that a pregnant child had come in for treatment. That child is now one of the youngest mothers in Idaho.

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:cqmCKtOHYVEJ:www.2news.tv/news/18769804.html+%2210-year-old+gives+birth%3B+baby%27s+father+allegedly+raped+her%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

It is all still alleged, of course.

[EFerrari]

86. That doesn't say the 10 yr old's father is the rapist. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

93. You're right - my apologies

I read the words "father allegedly raped her" and then just misread the rest of the story once that idea was in my mind.

[EFerrari]

99. Understandable. The writing is a little clunky.

:hi:

[Gormy Cuss]

104. Other reports have danced around the issue of whether he was known to the girl, but perhaps so.

The police have charged a woman with child endangerment and this report claims the woman is the girl's mother and Gutierrez-Juarez's girlfriend.
http://www.localnews8.com/global/story.asp?s=8303229

If true, that would take most of the fear out of the "roving illegal immigrant rapist" story line now wouldn't it?


edited to correct dopey grammar.

[EFerrari]

105. Oh, lord.

It's almost always someone known to the family, whether that family is white, black, brown or striped.

But, for sure, this story reminds me of that part in "Gone with the Wind" where Scarlet is assaulted and then, the Klan has to raid a homeless encampment.

Things don't change very fast, do they? :(

[rebecca_herman]

95. Do we know for a fact that parents knew?

If they didn't know they may be negligent, but it doesn't mean they forced her to keep the pregnancy. As I mentioned above there was a similar story in my area with a very young pregnant girl whose pregnancy wasn't discovered until she was almost full term. Her mother was a single parent who worked full time and wasn't able to spend a lot of time with her daughter, who was spending time after school being babysat by a neighbor, turns out the neighbor had been raping her. Mother finally noticed the girl had been sick a lot and gained some weight so took her to the doctor, girl turned out to be 7 months pregnant and had the baby prematurely shortly after. Physically she was not harmed, I just hope she can recover emotionally from the experience.

[Yupster]

144. What if the parents wanted the girl

to have an abortion, but the girl wanted to give birth?

[Flagg]

58. Were the parents aware of their child's pregnancy ?

I hope not...otherwise I'd have as much respect for them as I have for the animal who raped their daughter.

[OKthatsIT]

61. WAIT for the DNA test. It could be the girl's relative, in hiding

Could be a evil government operative...who told the girl what to say and what to do...remember, Boys Town? Remember Lawrence King?

Wonder if she'll end up in foster care?

[Pastiche423]

64. On the news last night

the broadcaster said that most likely both the 10 year old and her baby will be placed in foster care.

[Deja Q]

101. Ah, but how do we know the DNA wasn't planted?

(rimshot)

:silly: -- I mean, in most cases, it's not exactly easy to forge DNA...

[Dorian Gray]

72. The rape is awful

I hope that the man is arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

His legal status doesn't make a difference in this story, though. Well, it does in that we can deport his ass. BUT.... Americans commit rape all the time. We should be outraged over the abuse of a ten year old girl, not the legal status of the perpetrator.

[mikelgb]

79. wow, I never knew girls could concieve so young...

[Myrina]

81. ... they can now ...

... biological clocks seem to be speeding up ... probably thanks to all the chemicals and growth hormones in fast food over the past couple decades ...

My mom started her periods around 15 ... my sisters and I around 13 ... my daughter (now 17) was just shy of her 12th birthday ...

Makes ya' wonder what's in the food supply, eh? :scared:

[EFerrari]

87. Actually, it's probably the other way around.

Women's life spans are getting longer, not shorter.

I started when I was ten and that was back when God was a child. :)

[HockeyMom]

107. For what it's worth

I got my period at 10 and that was almost 50 years ago. My Mom got hers at 11 and that was, oh my, 75 years ago. My daughter was 11 when she got hers.

Genetics seems to play a part in it, especially with women of Mediterranean heritage.

[GetTheRightVote]

84. All people who do these crimes should be put in jail for life as far as I am concerned

that poor girl to be put thru all of this needs to know her attacker is gone for good.
This is a 10 year child, what man could do this to a child.

[BlooInBloo]

90. Hope the girl and baby are ok. And I want to see a DNA test.

[KamaAina]

91. What in the name of god does his immigration status have to do with him being a scuzzy rapist?

Child rapists are the lowest form of life. Lower than the Ebola virus. Lower even than repukes. And yes, that includes those born here.

This looks to me like a subtle way of making sure we're all properly scared of them there scary brown Meskin types. :eyes:

[whopis01]

96. I think the OP must have been pointing out that this person became a rapist while living here...

and must have been questioning what it is about our culture and society that can allow this to happen.

[Deja Q]

102. An interesting observation... I have to wonder,

maybe the accused rapist watched too many music videos on MTV and decided that's how our society actually works?

[OhioChick]

109. The "OP" wasn't pointing out anything

But rather posting a story that had become national news.

[Deja Q]

100. Extremely awful.

And it's two crimes: Child rape and being here illegally in the first place; it'll be fun to see who hypes up which more than the other... though I don't see either as being "fun", the greater issue is that of legality.

For example: If I went to another country illegally, where or when would I decide to stop breaking their laws and customs? And to be fair, at what point is illegal entry justified? (seeking aslyum, perhaps?)

[morkalienfrommars]

106. This story is very popular in Free Republic

The original poster should tell us more about his background.

[OhioChick]

108. Why would you be interested in "my" background?

Oh nevermind, I see you're already tombstoned.

[xioaping]

128. what point are you trying to make?

Whatever you are trying to say went way over my head. Care to elaborate on that.

[depakid]

137. Isn't it obvious?

Certain DU'ers share an affinity with FR on this issue- and will look for any excuse to harp on it- regardless of whether it's relevant to the discussion.

[xioaping]

139. thanks for explanation. Can we talk about China now

Certain DU'ers share an affinity with FR on this issue (China) - and will look for any excuse to harp on it- regardless of whether it's relevant to the discussion. It seem everyone in the U.S. wants to go attack China. But don't attack me. I am just making an observation. Don't shoot the baby, kill the messenger with the bath water, flip out a pancake.

[depakid]

140. That's probably true in some ways too

though probably for different reasons.

[OhioChick]

141. ???

I found an article that made National news and posted it.....following the rules as set by Administrators.


"4. When posting articles, always use the published title of the article as the title of the discussion thread."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x87249

[depakid]

142. No worries, I wasn't referring to you as the OP

just folks who've hijacked a tragedy to push an agenda.

Curiously, the Sydney Morning Herald picked up on the story, too- but being Australians, they didn't find it necessary to use "illegal alien" in the headline. Wouldn't have had the same sensational impact there as it does in American papers.

[OhioChick]

143. Oh.....I'm Sorry

I thought you were referring to me. My thought when coming across the story was "Wow.....10 years old, raped and with child." (As stated in original post) I really feel for the girl, she's going to likely have problems forever.

American papers likely chose that headline due to illegal immigration being a hot-button topic is my guess.

I asked one of the mods to lock this if it gets out of hand.