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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:48 AM
Original message
Venezuela's Chavez says South American defense council to be created
Source: International Herald Tribune/Associated Press

Venezuela's Chavez says South American defense council to be created

The Associated Press
Monday, April 14, 2008

CARACAS, Venezuela: Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said his government is working to create a South America defense council along with Brazil and other countries.

During a speech Sunday night, Chavez said the council would unite the region's countries to "design our own defense policies." He said Venezuelan officials planned to discuss it with Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim while he visits Caracas on Monday.

"We're working on the project to create a South American defense council," Chavez said.
(snip)

"I once said that if NATO exists — the North Atlantic Treaty Organization — why couldn't SATO exist? The South Atlantic Treaty Organization," Chavez said. "We've placed it on the table for Latin America once again." Chavez was addressing a crowd of supporters outside the presidential palace on the sixth anniversary of his return to power after a short-lived 2002 coup.
(snip)

He said the defeat of that coup was "the beginning of the end of the U.S. empire's hegemony in the lands of this continent."



Read more: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/14/america/LA-GEN-Venezuela-Chavez.php
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. Brazil Has Deployed Close to 30,000 Troops to Defend Amazon Riches
Brazil Has Deployed Close to 30,000 Troops to Defend Amazon Riches
Written by Newsroom
Monday, 14 April 2008

Nelson Jobim, Brazil's Minister of Defense, announced he will be visiting neighboring countries to promote the Brazilian initiative for a South American Defense Council. Addressing the Defense and Foreign Affairs committees of the Brazilian Congress Jobim said he wiil be traveling this Monday, April 13, to Venezuela, Surinam and Guyana the first leg of the regional tour.

Later on Minister Jobim is planning to meet with officials from Colombia, Peru and Ecuador and sometime in the second half of the year he would be traveling to meet with the governments of Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile and Bolivia.

Brazil, South America's largest country has borders with all the continent's countries with the exception of Chile and Ecuador.

"The purpose of these visits is to draft a mid term or possibly long term South American defense identity so that we can have a strong, united continent," said Jobim to members of the two congressional committees.

The South American Defense Council should help to coordinate joint military exercises among the different member countries and could also include the collective participation in United Nations peace operations.

http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/9244/
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. In other words
To steal and destroy aka "develop" the riches of Earth instead of letting the natives live in harmony with nature as they have done for millennia, "sustainably". Fuck also Brazil, fuck also Venezuela, fuck every governement still deluded by Western "developmentalist" Growthism.

Every tree is more holy than the whole humankind.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. "Every tree is more holy than the whole humankind."
That's pretty warped.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. It's not warped. It's a response to a real crisis--the biggest crisis the human race
has ever faced. The World Wildlife fund gives us 50 years, at present levels of consumption and pollution--50 years to the DEATH of the planet! End of all life on earth. End of our history. End of OURSELVES, as well as the paradise that produced us.

You can easily get freaked if you know the facts. But "warped" is unfair. It is we consumers and polluters who are warped--way, way over to the greed/insecurity side of things. And we have to change, or we die--we being the entire human race. It is easy to get upset about it. What is harder is how to produce policy to correct our huge, suicidal mistakes--and, above all, the WARP of global corporate predator greed.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. thanks n/t
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Welcome to DU, Tama! I'm afraid that you hold people responsible for
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 10:35 AM by Peace Patriot
environmental damage in a way that is not very helpful. You advocate for the trees as if the trees, and the earth itself, could battle against us. (A tree is "more holy" than humankind.) And it may be that we are at war with nature--that's one way to describe our problem-- but nature is not at war with US. Nature PRODUCED us--just as we are. Whatever can nature have had in mind, to produce a species that is so clever that it can destroy the earth and all its critters and the very ecological matrix in which we evolved?

It is not in our "nature" to leave things alone--or, I should say, it's not in the nature of the great majority of the human race to leave things alone. You could almost write the history of 'civilization' in forests destroyed. It may be that indigenous tribes that live in harmony with nature are more civilized than the rest of us, but the trouble is that the rest of us aren't like that--are not capable of returning to that state of harmony. We may learn from them--we MUST learn from them, or we are all doomed. But there are too many of us--billions of us--who don't have the skills or the psychology to live in a truly sustainable way.

I am more in the middle of this issue. I see what we have done to nature. I really, really do see it. But I also see the struggle of humanity to survive--our insecurity, the burden of our forward-thinking brains, our use of our skills to create our own security (for instance, storing grain for seven years into the future, or creating and disseminating refrigerators)--and I feel compassion for US. When will we ever learn?

And because I see both sides, I am rooting for South American democracy, because I feel that, if we have real democracy, the wisest policies with naturally arise. It's interesting that here in the U.S., protection of the environment has always--since the 1970s--received huge poll numbers. 80% to 90% of the people wanting strong environmental protections. But our severely damaged democracy has been unable to respond to the will of the people. The few among us who are excessive greedbags and powermongers keep frustrating the wisdom of the majority.

South America is on a better path. They have the potential to actually adhere to the greater wisdom--for several reasons, one of them being that the new left leaders of South America are far, far more responsive to the wisdom of the remaining indigenous tribes that any of our leaders are. Leaders like Evo Morales, Rafael Correa and Hugo Chavez not only have indigenous blood (Evo Morales, 100%), but they are culturally and politically--and I think spiritually as well--more attuned to native beliefs about the sacredness of the earth. Another is that, to achieve truly sustainable policies, these countries MUST eject the multinational corporations that have plundered their resources and enslaved their people, and that can only happen with real democracy. The South Americans have far better democracies, now, than we do--far, far better. They actually hold transparent elections--unlike our own.

You see, we have to figure out how to produce policy that reveres every tree--how to produce a government that fosters not just prosperity but also WISDOM. You could have a king, I suppose, who imposes wisdom by fiat--but that happens so rarely that the earth cannot depend upon it. For instance, in England, centuries ago, the king protected the forest--but kings are too corruptible, and changeable. We need to produce a system of human organization that has the ability to reflect our highest consciousness. Democracy (not necessarily associated with capitalism--or the predatory capitalism that we have seen) is the best hope for understanding nature and living on earth in a peaceful way.

A South American defense pact may well be necessary to protect the democratic gains that have occurred there, as the result of people-driven social movements--for the aggressive, bloodthirsty, greedy, global corporate predator-driven government of the north is out to destroy these democratic gains.

We can certainly look with despair on the compromises, say, that the leftist Brazilian government has made with multinationals (for instance, on biofuel production), or we can look with hope on the tremendous advances that Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador have made in official policy on the U.S. "war on drugs" (all vigorously oppose it--one of the biggest reasons being pesticide spraying). I choose to look with hope upon such advances and the tremendous potential for better policy on all fronts, through democratic means, rather than presuming that a democratic South America will follow the same path we have followed--co-optation of democracy by multinationals.

I guess I'm saying, don't underestimate democracy. Yeah, the human race has a miserable history of assaults on nature--but it has mostly been unconscious--out of need, and feelings of insecurity, where we've used our natural cleverness to plan for the future. Well, now we have to plan much more comprehensively--for centuries and millennia--not just for next year, or for seven years, or for the next generation, but for all life, forever. That's a big leap for us to take. And democracy is the only way we're going to take it--that I can see.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Thank you very much for your masterful and enlightened commentary. n/t
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Thanks for your excellent post
A patch of woods close by was cut today and I let the anger flow.

I'm also very serious when I say that trees are spiritually much more evolved than humans, and we should learn from them.

That said, I too share the dream of "soft landing" for humanity, a slow learning curve instead of what is most likely to come and wellcome the struggle of Aymara of Bolivia, Maya of Zapatista Mexico etc. to turn their countries away from their current path; the globalized and universilized majority of our species really does not have any other hope than to learn from indigenous tribes and have enough time to do so. But then, the time seems to have been spent allready and the majority still keeps on adding to the insult to the injury. And I've had enough of our collective denial and false hopes so why not tell the truth... cause what else is there left?
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Here's a (semi)practical idea
For get about statism and political parties dependent on national states and corrupt representative system. If human kind deserves a chance, as I too still believe and hope (against all odds) then we should work to give us a chance, collectively meaning democratically to make as wise decisions as we can - as of now and yesterday. Not through representation but direct and participatory democracy on all levels from smallest communal level to global level. E.g. those who have the luxury living in US states that have citizens initiatives and referenda could use that tool to give people a chance to choose a different way, balance instead of develompentalist consumerism. Certainly not easy path and not likely to succeed, but even more difficult to forgive ourselves if we don't even try.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. feel free to live in a cave like the Unabomber then
You seem to share his political opinions.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Terrorism is just vanity
But better a cave than the suburb with empty malls and hungry hordes rampant, if one has required practical skills. I don't, so it's just deer in the headlights time. :)

Or don't you read the news and multiple DU topics about global food emergency and collapse of the system that 90% of mankind are depending on for their next meal?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. Hey, that's Freeperist thinking, provis99--to equate someone who understands
the relationship of forests to global warming, and expresses this in terms of the sacredness of the earth and its forests--with the "Unabomber." You an Associated Puke reporter, or what? Freeperist echo of global corporate predator 'talking points.'
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. LOL


ur rong.
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SteinbachMB Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. Chavez wants to be a military power?
I may start to like this guy. When will he call for nukes?
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Brazil and Argentina have the technical infrastructure
to develop nuclear weapons if they choose to do so. Venezuela does not. But this is not so much about being a military threat to anyone, as it is about getting the yankees and their FOBs and other military facilities and their status of forces agreements that make those facilities and the people in them extra-territorial, and their nefarious self-serving meddling, out of the region.
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. It's not just Chavez, it's every leader down there.
Read the article and stop appearing transparent.
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SteinbachMB Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. My transparent dislike of Chavez
...is something I refuse to hide. Sue me.
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. It'll have to be a class action suit
Because I hate the bastard, too.
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SteinbachMB Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Excellent
I would hate to think that this site is full of Chavez kool-aid drinkers.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. But your "dislike of Chavez" prevents you from seeing reality.
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 12:08 PM by ronnie624
Can you not acknowledge that since the election of Hugo Chavez, there have been dramatic improvements for the majority of Venezuelans? Unemployment is lower and the economy is one of the fastest growing in the world. There's less poverty, a lower infant mortality rate, fewer children go hungry, and everyone has their basic health care needs met (no doubt I'm leaving out many key points).

Will you not admit that sovereign nations have a right to develop relations and alliances with other countries? Do they not have a right to defend their resources against exploitation by foreign interests at the expense of their own citizens? The U.S. has a long, traceable history of interventions and exploitation in Latin America on behalf of big corporations, at the expense of the people there. Why would someone root for a bully and a thief over his victims?

Will you not admit that the elections in Venezuela, under the Bolivarian government are clean and accurate? Every time there is a national election, thousands of observers from every continent, descend upon Venezuela to monitor every step of the process. Surely the repeated election of Hugo Chavez as president and his supporters to the national assembly, indicate that the will of the majority is being served.

Why do you favor the profits of wealthy elites over the basic needs of the working class?

You should present a coherent argument that expresses your position, and then provide links to information that supports it, instead of posting snippets of inane drivel here and there that in no way offer insight.
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MAGICBULLET Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. It's hard for me to say really...
b/c I feel the problem with whatever stats or link you may provide telling me about all of the improvements made since Chavez was elected are based on what the Venezuelan gov't provides. I'm not referring to polling stats or anything that pertains to elections. I'm wondering how much has poverty really decreased since Chavez has been elected as well as the effectiveness of all the social programs? I'm not asking this question to typically take away from whatever efforts he's made but I question whether he will be the savior of Venezuela that lots of people have already made him out to be. Yes, he's better, in theory, than his predecessors, but is there significantly less poverty in Caracas now, is there less unemployment? Have you been there to see for yourself or are you just confidently making these statements based on just links provided by gov't sources?
There are too many inconsistencies with this issue.

<http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/213>
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. There's no inconsistencies.
Poverty is less, unemployment is less, healthcare is much, much better. There's at least one poster on here that lives in Venezuela right now, there's plenty of people that have been down there themselves to check it out, the statistics support it, Bloomberg News reports on their record low unemployment rate, the Center for Economic Policy Research confirms it, and most importantly, the Venezuelan voters confirm it. There's no debate as to whether conditions have gotten much better in Venezuela.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. warning on this twerp
Steinbach, Manitoba is a Ku Klux Klan stronghold in Canada. Freeper alert.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Glad to hear it revealed! It won't come as a shock to anyone who saw the posts.
No doubt the news shot throughout their Klandom the moment someone followed the words on his screen with his puffy digit whilst sounding out the words and learned what everyone else knew long ago, that Hugo Chavez has some African ancestors, as well as indigenous Venezuelans. That's really got to chap their asses.

Appreciate your revelation, as these guys are just too danged bashful to want to say much about themselves, or call attention to their exalted whitenesses.

http://www.daymonjhartley.com.nyud.net:8090/News/klan.jpg

Sometimes, however, they have been known to be captured.
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Andrushka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Booga booga!
n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
22. Brazilian minister to talk in Venezuela about defense issues
Caracas, Monday April 14 , 2008
Brazilian minister to talk in Venezuela about defense issues

Brazilian Defense Minister Nélson Jobim Monday traveled to Venezuela, the first stop in a regional tour that is taking him to several countries to garner support to create a South American Defense Council, reported DPA.

Jobim is to meet with Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez to discuss the issue, according to Brazilian official sources.

In two weeks, Minister Jobim will hold similar meetings with Peruvian, Colombian and Ecuadorian officials.

The proposal to create a South American Defense Council was made by Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva amidst the tensions that ignited following a Colombian military operation in Ecuadorian territory where Raúl Reyes, the number two man of the rebel Colombian Revolutionary Armed Forces (FARC), was killed.

http://english.eluniversal.com/2008/04/14/en_pol_art_brazilian-minister-t_14A1514961.shtml
opposition newspaper
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
26. I've gotta agree with Hugo on this one. It is only prudent for them to band together to defend
themselves from, among other things, a once-great, once-free superpower, now hollowed-out, enslaved, and ruled by "Hitler's kinder and gentler metaphorical second cousins".

You go Hugo, and hurry. The Bushies aren't finished trying to destabilize and reconquer Free South America.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
27. Brazil: Defense spending not arms race
Brazil: Defense spending not arms race
Apr 15, 2008 7:39 PM

South America has a right to beef up its armed forces but is not in an arms race, Brazil's defense minister said on Monday, as the region raises military spending on the back of high oil, food and metals prices.

Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, who is in Venezuela to discuss a planned South American security council, said the region needed military power to strengthen its presence on the world stage.

"There is no arms race in South America," he said after meeting with Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, an antagonist of the United States who is using oil dollars to modernize his armed forces.

"It is important that countries have weapons. The projection of power by South America depends on its dissuasive powers of defense," said Jobim.

More:
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1318360/1713679
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
29.  Brazilian minister to talk in Venezuela about defense issues
Caracas, Monday April 14 , 2008
Brazilian minister to talk in Venezuela about defense issues

Brazilian Defense Minister Nélson Jobim Monday traveled to Venezuela, the first stop in a regional tour that is taking him to several countries to garner support to create a South American Defense Council, reported DPA.

Jobim is to meet with Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez to discuss the issue, according to Brazilian official sources.

In two weeks, Minister Jobim will hold similar meetings with Peruvian, Colombian and Ecuadorian officials.

The proposal to create a South American Defense Council was made by Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva amidst the tensions that ignited following a Colombian military operation in Ecuadorian territory where Raúl Reyes, the number two man of the rebel Colombian Revolutionary Armed Forces (FARC), was killed.

http://english.eluniversal.com/2008/04/14/en_pol_art_brazilian-minister-t_14A1514961.shtml
opposition newspaper
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