Venezuela's Hugo Chavez seizes sugar plantations

[bemildred]

Source: LA Times

BOGOTA, COLOMBIA -- Venezuelan armed forces occupied 32 sugar plantations Thursday, the latest in a wave of takeovers that some say is a bid by President Hugo Chavez to regain political momentum and reverse his recent slide in the polls.

The farms in Lara state were taken over by army units at the request of the Chavez government's National Land Institute, or INTI. The institute in recent years has handled the takeover of thousands of acres of farmland and turned them over to worker cooperatives.

The government last week said it would seize privately owned cement manufacturers, and Wednesday it said it would "renationalize" Sidor, one of Latin America's largest steel factories. A 1998 privatization placed Sidor in the control of an Argentine-Italian joint venture.

INTI President Juan Carlos Loyo told reporters that the farm seizures were ordered after inspections showed 80% of them were idle.



Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-nationalize11apr11,1,6939137.story

---

Lots of comments from "analysts" and "pollsters" here ...

[bean fidhleir]

1. Something like that is in our future too, if we want to live

Everyone is going to have to switch to intensive cultivation of small areas for food so that most farmland can be re-forested. Likewise housing patterns will have to change away from sprawling acreage of lawns with single-family homes plonked in the middle. We're getting a rather clear and urgent message from Mama Earth that she can't be having with that kind of waste any more.

[nels25]

18. I do not think so

I mean we are not going all the way back to the log and cabin times, with horse pulled plows??

I think we can handle the eco-crisis better with common sense then histrionics.

I am willing to bet that the people of the United States will as they have in the past face up to this challenge and concur it.

Keep in mind that when it gets right down to it, the public as whole is not going to support such wide spread change in their current life styles or the life style they would like to attain easily.

From what I read some would have the government step in at every turn and compel the public to act in ways they want.

There are a few problems with that approach:

A. That goes against the overall democratic nature of which this nation and party are supposed to stand for.

B. We will be voted into the minority so fast it will make you head spin.


IMHO people want the whole climate and green situation dealt with in a responsible manner.

Lecturing or hectoring people about how they must do this or that (and doing so in a haughty I know better than you about this so act accordingly - which I am sad to say is the way Gore come across to a large amount of people) which some have on the left have a propensity for doing will not encourage the public at large to embrace the changes that may be required.

Just my observations.

[bean fidhleir]

22. As Feynman noted, Nature cannot be fooled

We're not going to have to make these changes because I say so or because any other human says so. We're going to have to do it because Nature says so, just as Nature says "don't walk off the edge of this 12-story roof". Nature doesn't care whether you walk off the edge of the roof, but if that's your choice, Physics will see to it that your journey to the ground will last the rest of your life.

Pretending we don't have to obey Nature's rules will get us nowhere but the fossil record.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

28. Those who refuse a drastic change will not survive.

That's the way it's always been when civilizations fall.

[eridani]

46. "the public as whole is not going to support such wide spread change in their current life styles"

Yeah, right. There was a major wind storm and power failure in the Pacific MW in December 2007. In 25 years, we've never had power be off for longer than 6 hours; usually it's more like 30 minute. We were out of power for a full 10 days. And I absolutely REFUSED to accept that change in my lifestyle! REFUSED!! But guess what? My outrage was entirely irrelevant.

[jjr5]

2. Uh, problem!

Centralization and consolidation of power. I hate this. Isn't there anything the people who of Venezuela can do about this?

[mbperrin]

5. So you would also oppose mergers and acquisitions by

private companies, correct?

That is nothing but centralization and consolidation of power also, right?

[jjr5]

13. Well, obviously neither of those things . . .

Are the hallmarks of a healthy economy. So, yes, I do oppose monopolies and oligopolies.

[ronnie624]

69. How quickly some forget

when it suits their own ideology to do so.


Stunned Bear Stearns shareholders who saw investments virtually wiped out overnight when a takeover deal with JPMorgan Chase was unveiled are demanding to know how it was put together in the first place.

For instance, they -- and Washington lawmakers -- want answers on how the deal was arranged, and gained government approval and financing, all in a few hours, and seemingly without alternative bidders being canvassed.

They also have a host of questions about the role of the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department in engineering the emergency deal.

So far, some crucial details remain murky

<http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSN1438930520080320>

[Judi Lynn]

6. You need some serious time getting up to speed on Venezuela. The people of Venezuela ELECTED

this man. He is NOT stealing from the "people of Venezuela."

You need to do your homework.

Trying to correct misperception, or ignorance due to indifference is fantastically time-consuming when the same twisted claims get brought up again and again.

Start paying attention, start involving yourself in your own education. There's no time like the present.

[jjr5]

14. Well,

Whether you agree with me or not, I don't think that what Chavez is doing will help the economy very much, or his own recently unpopular poll numbers.

Oh yeah, and it's wrong to target people for expressing an opinion. Expressing an opinion is what makes democracy what it is.

[Judi Lynn]

15. Get a real grasp of the subject if you believe your opinions should be heard. Uninformed opinions

don't have the same seriousness, since they aren't reality based.

[jjr5]

27. I'm really confused

Why do you think my opinions are not informed? You still haven't answered that all encompassing question. What makes you think I don't know what I'm talking about? The fact that I hold a different position from yours? I think that you need to get a grasp of reality and understand that people have different stances on issues, and you should listen to them because they might just be right.

[Usrename]

41. I don't really get it.

Who is served by allowing 80% of their sugar production to go fallow?

[jjr5]

60. Remember that that number probably came from

Chavez's National Land Institute, and that there is a possibility that the number isn't quite right. Not saying that it isn't close, and not saying that it isn't true, just saying we should question it. I'm also not saying that things were great before, but what Chavez has done probably won't end up helping Venezuelans as much as other options. Although they may end up creating worker-cooperatives, they will be state-run an idea that is dubious seeing Chavez's obvious political motives behind the move, and the fact that state-seized companies in Venezuela went bankrupt in the 1980s. I don't know how Chavez will end up as a president, but I stay skeptical.

[Dreamer Tatum]

103. That's what she does when you disagree with Chavez

...she doesn't engage in debate, just tells you to get educated if you want to be taken seriously.

Irony alert, no?

[PetraPooh]

39. Suggesting you become better educated on the subject is "targeting" you? :eyeroll:

[toopers]

94. So the people of Venezuela are stealing from other . . .

Venezuelans through an elected official. So much for individual rights that cannot be terminated by others.

[Judi Lynn]

95. Be sure to link DU'ers to your information Venezuelans are STEALING from other Venezuela,

through the services of Hugo Chavez.

I think you probably should recognize Democrats are generally literate, and well aware of the phenomenon of COMPENSATION for property used this way. Democrats are far different from mouth-breathing, knuckle dragging idiot right-wingers.

You won't be able to sell that silliness here, unless you stun everyone by producing that bonafide SOURCE which will inform us all otherwise.

Stealing! That's a hot one.

[toopers]

99. In my mind, my being a democrat does not allow for . . .

my government to take property. I realize that the US uses eminent domain to confiscate property, and I think US government has allowed to much of this to go on (New London, Connecticut). However, even the US has not done what Chavez has done -- the taking of entire industries, which includes properties since he is going to make the farm industry part of the government.

In regards to the specific use of the term "stealing" I would only refer you to your previous post where you mention that "the people of Venezuela elected this man". You are right, he was elected, but taking one person's property because the majority wants you to do it is not appropriate, and that is why the US was not set up as a democracy -- our founding fathers did not want majority rules when it came to individual rights. I am well read on Venezuela, and through multiple sources and residents. Based on what I have seen of your posts you are the one in desperate need of education, not only on Venezuela but also on the concept of individual rights.

[bean fidhleir]

100. You're right about the Framers wanting to protect the wealthy from the rest of us

Most of them wanted to preserve British feudalism, since they had vast wealth acquired through feudalist cronyism, theft, and slavery.

But why should *we* want to preserve it?

[tama]

101. I read "farmers" instead of "framers"

and that change of letters carries a huge change in meaning and politics. Funny that.

[bean fidhleir]

102. Yes, especially since real farmers didn't even get a look-in during the Convention

with the only "farmers" among the Framers being wealthy plantation owners whose farming was done by enslaved Africans.

I'm in the middle of reading Beard's "Economic Interpretation of the Constitution" and it's even more an eye-opener than reading Madison's semi-transcript of the sessions.

[AlphaCentauri]

8. people of venezuela is having a change to own a percentage of some companies

that is restructuring the economy and redistribution of resources.

[ToeBot]

9. Cheer? nt

[DCKit]

21. What if the owners of those plantations, the steel and cement plants...

Had decided to crash the economy to get rid of Chavez? I don't know the situation with the steel mills, but the cement industry was in open opposition to government policy and I have no illusions of the economic damage that cold be wrought if the plantation owners decided to take a season off and cause a sugar shortage.

I'm cynical of everything I read and hear about ol' Hugo, from either side of the argument, but the pattern is hard to deny and, while I may not agree with his methods, I'm not there to watch these things unfold. I doubt, at this point, he's been given much choice - better to intervene now than face a popular revolution later because he failed to protect the interests of his people.

[PetraPooh]

40. He took over the steel company because after months of union/company arbitration

the company wouldn't cede to give employees "proper" working conditions. Please read something besides headlines, look for the details. It will serve you well in the long run.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/09/world/main4003557.shtml

<snip>Vice President Ramon Carrizalez announced the move on state radio Wednesday morning, noting the nationalization comes after months of difficult negotiations between the steel maker Sidor and its workers, who have been demanding better salaries and benefits.

Carrizalez, who held talks with union and company representatives early Wednesday, said Chavez did not want to permit the labor conflict to continue. The government tried to help reach an agreement but the company "didn't give in," Carrizalez said, according to the state-run Bolivarian News Agency.

"They wanted the government's support for the brutal system they used in that company, and of course this is a government that supports the workers," Carrizalez said. <snip>

[DCKit]

49. If you're going to criticize someone for believing the MSM...

(who, by the way, doesn't) you too should take the time to read and consider the entire post. I'm not bitching at you personally, but you went first.

When you jump to conclusions, the general result is to piss off the people who would, otherwise, have your back. I'm willing to give Chavez MORE than a break.

The sheer number of true believers on any number of topics - those who have an inalienable position and choose to read everything posted through their personal viewfinder, regardless of the intent of the post - tend to dampen the spirit and intent of DU, and I'll call them out as I see them: especially when they accuse me (personally) of being a complete dick when I've emphatically said I have an open mind on any particular subject and am tending toward their own POV.

[PetraPooh]

71. I didn't criticize for believing, I criticized for shallow reading of headlines.

Your attempt to suggest otherwise is false. I also am not "believing" MSM, I am believing the quote of an official of the Venezulean government. Also I do not just read US rags, I also check and compare with what other non-American sources are reporting about these situations. However to post those as sources tend to cause issue on most forums.

[lakeguy]

67. this is the same thing reagan did with the ATC strike...

except reagan sided with business, not the people.

[PetraPooh]

72. Exactly. I cannot help but to hope that Chavez is doing the right thing,

if in fact he is allowing the workers to benefit from their work. My only concern is if he then turns around and somehow, through taxes or some like concept, brings the money solely back into his and his cronies pockets. I have not read of such things, but I fear some day I will.

[booley]

23. Well there is one thing I can think of

Stop voting for him.

Since his winning elections is precisely how he stays in power.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. If your problem is centralization and consolidation

then the breakup of huge plantations is just your ticket. These idle plantations will be re-worked into a mix of private and cooperative small holdings and will re-invigorate agricultural communitees in Venezuela. The 'people who of Venezuela' will benefit from land reform, one of the ancient problems of the region.

[PetraPooh]

38. He is taking them from corporate farm groups and giving them

back to the workers through worker cooperatives. Why would the "people" want to reverse back to their slave employee status required by the privately owned corporations? Did you read the OP or just the title?

[sudopod]

3. Just curious

How much of this "nationalization" is re-nationalization?

Much of what the government is taking is stuff that was given way Russia-style in the first place, wasn't it?

[bemildred]

4. Some of it.

Well, all of it really was sold off at one point of another, but the sugar plantations go back a long way. Those seems to be a garden-variety land redistribution and protect your local economy effort. The steel business was sold off in the 90s and is being re-nationalized from then. The oil industry was a "re-nationalization" too, I think. Judy Lynn might know.

[Judi Lynn]

7. Steel and oil were both nationalized and remained nationalized from 1973, and then, in the 1990's

were privatized and the country needs them back, so the country itself, INCLUDING THE DESPERATELY POOR, will benefit rather than greedy outside interests looking to increase their wealth.

Makes sense to me.

If ONLY people would invest THEIR OWN TIME and start researching, the way many adults do in order to grasp what vastness remains to be understood. Apparently they all live in the belief that wisdom can simply come to them, like cartoons, through the ether, without any active involvement. Jesus.

[Cal Carpenter]

10. Regarding your last sentence

I agree with you to a point, but I also have a feeling that there are many who know quite well what is really happening and are trying to advance their own agenda - to take advantage of those who haven't done their homework or haven't had someone educated on the situation (like you) to lay it out for them.

You are trying to counter decades of propaganda and there are those out there who don't want that to happen - either because of their own personal interests or because of the bigger picture.

Socialism is one of the few scapegoats left. But you know this better than me. Regardless, while I am actually posting, I would like to thank you for your tireless (and often thankless) efforts to educate people about Latin America. I lurk around a lot and I always learn new things from you. :)

[Judi Lynn]

12. So glad you stepped out to speak. I know the feeling, as I lurked for ages

on the now defunct CNN US/Cuba relations message board, having known absolutely NOTHING about Cuba when I started reading, other than a feeling of rage that the Miami people were trying to prevent the child from returning to his home. That was the hook that attached me to that conversation.

I became so involved and fascinated reading each post, I made sure I wrote down the number of the last post I read each day so I could start at the next one when I returned. I was becoming absolutely convinced I was learning something I had never heard before.

I read wild, knock-down, drag-outs among ordinary people, Miami Cuban "exiles" and their next generation, complete with threats (!!!) and personal attacks (calling people who disagree with you "communists" is big in that group) and random American right-wingers. When posters started claiming people were trying to hack them, I became afraid to start posting! By the time I got up the courage to stumble forward and make some truly clumsy remarks, the whole conversation was in decline, as the child had just been finally allowed to go home.

During that time I got an intense course on stuff I needed to find out about Cuba, I carried that ongoing conversation around with me thinking over everything I had read, comparing contrasting it with what I had believed earlier, and then I was hooked. It really takes years of personal work and real concern to start undoing the lies we've been taught, but that only happens at the personal level, as in internal transformation over time, through an awakening of sorts.

Very thankful you took the time to share your comments. I can see you did this in actual good faith. Really appreciate it.

Welcome to D.U.! :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

[unkachuck]

31. add my name to the....

....list of people who appreciate your, Peace Patriot's and others efforts to keep us all informed with your perspective, thoughts and intelligence....

....I truly depend on people like you to inform me with the truth and to bring our world into into sharper focus....great job and thank you....

[Judi Lynn]

51. Glad you're in this to learn with us: it seems things happen faster when there's a group working to

get as much real information as possible to counter the absolute crap we're seeing in the electronic media, etc. They've been doing this in Republican administrations since the days Reagan's Cuban "exile" propaganda meister, Otto Reich did things so underhanded, so trashy, so dishonest the Congress found he had been committing illegal acts from his Office of Public Diplomacy in the State Department.

That's back before they got to be really slick at this!

Waiting For Otto
Why would a man sullied by Iran-contra and illegal propaganda campaigns be a Bush nominee? Good question.
By Kirk Nielsen
Published: November 8, 2001

~snip~
Otto Reich is featured in a section titled "White Propaganda," which referred to his work at the Office of Public Diplomacy. The report described the OPD's operations as "a new, nontraditional activity for the United States government" that involved the illegal use of taxpayers' money for public relations lobbying. For example the office produced op-ed pieces published in national newspapers without disclosing OPD involvement. The report quoted Reich's description of his modus operandi as "a very aggressive posture vis-à-vis a sometimes hostile press."

The U.S. comptroller general, after another investigation, soon concluded that Reich's operations were "prohibited covert propaganda activities designed to influence the media and the public." The OPD had violated a restriction barring the use of federal funds for publicity or propaganda purposes not authorized by Congress.

His background briefings, in which he often accused journalists of being communist sympathizers, are legendary in Washington. National Public Radio editors recall a meeting in which he testily referred to the network as "National People's Radio." His crusade also targeted U.S. reporters working in Central America. Miami-based author (and former Miami New Times staff writer) John Lantigua remembers having lunch with Reich during a visit he made to Nicaragua in 1985, when Lantigua was freelancing for the Washington Post and the Chicago Tribune. Reich was quarrelsome, Lantigua recalled, when the diplomat was confronted with facts that contradicted his ideology-laden conceptions about the socialist Sandinista government. "In retrospect, he was fishing. He was being provocative to see who would argue with him," Lantigua surmised. The journalist soon found himself the subject of a report by Accuracy in Media that claimed the Sandinista regime was providing sex slaves to Lantigua in exchange for favorable reporting. Reich later took credit for the report, telling a New York magazine writer that he had received the information from Sandinista defectors. "The guy's a slimeball," Lantigua scoffed.

Reich also engaged in potentially far more volatile forms of disinformation. In November 1984, purportedly citing classified intelligence documents, Reich told journalists that the Sandinista government may have received a shipment of Soviet MiGs. Network news programs and major newspapers picked up the tidbit, which proved to be false. But the OPD goal, in this instance to malign the Sandinistas, was met.
(page #2)

More:
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2001-11-08/news/waiting-for-otto/1



Otto Reich and his pal

_Bush attempted to have this scum approved by the Senate, got a rejection, and slid him into place as a holiday reccess appointment. He failed to get him approved again, a year later, but undoubtedly he's still around. His hideous associate Roger Noriega seems to be in charge of Latin American things in the State Department now, who was ALSO an aide to the mega-racist right-winger Jesse Helms.

It's people like this who are directing the flow of information, and, as you can see, telling the media what's the accepted agenda on Latin America. As I said, they've gotten smoother at this game, and more successful. Recall the discovery last year of a cluster of Miami journalists who were actually on the U.S. taxpayers' payroll who have been cranking out anti-Cuba propaganda for _Bush.

The anti-Cuba bastards are also involved with the anti-Chavez right-wing program. The two groups, Venezuelan expatriots and Cuban "exiles" held a joint anti-Chavez parade March 28, 2004, on a day the entire rest of the world was demonstrating in the streets against the impending _Bush aggression against the Iraqii people.



Former opposition leaders Carlos Fernandez, at center with raised
thumb, and Carlos Ortega, in a white Venezuela T-shirt, move to
the front of the protest march as it heads east on Calle Ocho, Miami.
The two men helped lead a national strike in their homeland.



Marchers in Little Havana demanded international help and denounced
the governments in Venezuela and Cuba as “serious threats” to Latin
America.

Glad you are with the people looking for the truth about U.S. policy, and the future we're all going to be sharing, for better or worse.

[Judi Lynn]

11. If you remove the space given to spin in this article, what's left? Very ####ing little.

This is a pattern so many of us are used to seeing, unfortunately.

You have to long for the good old days when the reporter and editor and publisher agreed that reporting the NEWS was the goal.

The spinner attempts to make a case this nationalization move is being pursued to restore some insinuated lost popularity. He's trying to claim Chavez is biting the big one with the Venezuelan voters. He doesn't make a credible case for this assumption.

He then attempts to connect this action to his implied loss of popularity and his implication Chavez is desperate, and going to extremes to pacify his supporters.

He neglects mentioning this is part of the pattern which has been in place FROM THE FIRST. FROM THE FIRST. This has always been the plan. It's what the people of Venezuela who voted for him have wanted FROM THE FIRST.

They want the country to operate as a democratic country, not as the appallingly cruel joke it becomes when only a tiny few manage to seize control. They learned when that happens, things get wildly out of hand, as they did in 1989, when Carlos Andres Perez had his troops fire point blank into crowds of protesting Venezuelan poor people who ran into the streets to protest the sharp increases of fuel, food, etc., far beyond their ability to pay, in the "El Caracazo Massacre."

That was their turning point, and you can be sure NOTHING is going to get the people who lived through that to get back in their cages and pretend this never happened. Point of no return. They will NOT be going back that way again, no matter how many idiot fascists try to trick or force them into it.

If the corporate, right-wing owned, controlled, right-wing serving media only had any respect whatsoever for democracy, for the truth, for serving the public interest, we wouldn't have pieces of crap like this to have to sift through like miners looking for gold, trying to determine if we can see any truth whatsoever. Wingnuts never have a problem with these stink-bombs. They swallow them whole. They ARE the audience for which they were designed.

[JohnnyCougar]

16. This brings up another false claim widely perpetuated by the US media

The spinner attempts to make a case this nationalization move is being pursued to restore some insinuated lost popularity. He's trying to claim Chavez is biting the big one with the Venezuelan voters. He doesn't make a credible case for this assumption.

Chavez really isn't suffering from any great decline in popularity. Some joke of a polling organization over there released one skewed poll, and numerous media outlets in the US picked up on that poll and ran with the story that Chavez is rapidly losing popularity. It was right after Chavez "suffered a major defeat" when his referendum lost by two percentage points.

Following the US media's storyline about Chavez is like running into a drunkard at a bus stop that starts telling you about his life via a torrent of pathological lies, histrionic inconsistencies, 180-degree contradictions, and paranoid fantasies.

[robcon]

17. You seem not to know Chavez's objective, Johnny Cougar.

So I don't think you know the reason why he's been nationalizing industries.

He wants to reinvigorate his popularity, since he will be repeating that referendum to make him president-for-life like his mentor, Castro.

He closes some media outlets, he takes a few shots at foreign companies, creates a straw man of the farms and the cement and steel companies, and then he'll try to override the Venezuelan constitution again.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

19. Can you also surf the web on your crystal ball? n/t

[JohnnyCougar]

20. You seem to know Chavez's objective, robcon

Do you know him personally? Do you have mental telepathy? Why do you speculate on his objectives when you have no clue what they really are and a demonstrated misunderstanding of Venezuelan society?

[Judi Lynn]

24. What media outlets are closed, would you provide information?You don't mean the still operating RCTV

I presume.

How did Hugo Chavez create "a straw man of the farms and the cement and steel companies?" Was the steel company a "straw man" when it was nationalized from 1973 to 1998? How did he make "straw men" of these industries? Sounds somewhat difficult.

1. Media outlets closed, which ones?
2. How did Chavez "a straw man of the farms and the cement and steel companies?"
3. When did Chavez attempt to override the Venezuelan constitution the first time? Even your right-wing controlled and serving media won't provide any info. on this.

[Pavulon]

26. You can't criticize che jesus here

even though he is quickly taking over foreign assets in a veiled attempt to push his popularity.

His pimps get very upset when anyone questions the revolution and its motives.

[bitchkitty]

30. I have yet to see one of you tools criticize Chavez -

unless you call regurgitating the latest talking-points criticism.

If you actually backed up your bullshit assertions with verifiable facts, that would be criticism. But what you do - it doesn't rise to the level of criticism. It's just shit.

[Pavulon]

32. The fat man in the red shirt is an icon

like the che posters in a dorm room. Search for the" water is warming froggies" I tag that into every post where he is taking something, squashing media, or trying to hold office for life. Other being an entertaining media whore it means not much to us. Entertainment value. His press blurbs push the price of his only thing of value, oil. Beyond that they export nothing.

What is fact to you, reuters, ap, who is a real source?

[JohnnyCougar]

34. Chavez is not Che.

[Pavulon]

35. No castro was not smart enough to tell

the real deal from a opportunistic media whore. Oil pimp and doofus cloaking himself in socialism.

[JohnnyCougar]

36. Another cryptic post from you.

That doesn't make any sense.

[Pavulon]

37. Once again, pretty simple

the fat guy in red cloaks himself in the bolivar movement and hangs out with castro and he is che and jesus all rolled up. Morons here think he is a great thing because of the whole enemy of my enemy logic.

Obviously when castro dies the rules we are playing by change.

Chavez is an fat oil pimp. Like the guy with 8 chins from Exxon. No different.

Look up what his family is up to now. Not broke is a quick hint.

Guess they are just more equal than the others..

If it is cryptic it is because you lack context to process what is posted.

[JohnnyCougar]

43. Sigh...

Morons here think he is a great thing because of the whole enemy of my enemy logic.

No they don't.


Chavez is an fat oil pimp. Like the guy with 8 chins from Exxon. No different.

Sure... :eyes:


If it is cryptic it is because you lack context to process what is posted.

No. It is because you do not formulate complete sentences.

[Pavulon]

56. Napoleon the pig

is playing animal farm with $100 bbl oil. That is THE only export he has. His constant threats to cut off the taps and jaw jacking serve to bump the price of oil.

He is an oil pimp, just like the fat fucks in saudi. So he dresses up in red but he still has the same profession. Nothing more than that, his cult followers (the morons I spoke of) are amusing (he is FDR, blah blah), but a quick look at old news items show his consolidation of power.

PS I bet you cant guess whose family all have high paying jobs now?

All his screwing around will eventually be paid for by the people who live there. No matter how much money he rakes in, it is not enough to set up his own industrial sector alone. Now he is stealing it, lets see how long that plan works.

If any politician here, or in western Europe, pulled the political shit he did they would be crushed in the press.

Consider a 2002 initiate by GWB to be president forever...

[Usrename]

68. Do you even bother to read what has been posted?

The OP talks about 80% of the land not being farmed. How do you expect them to export sugar if no one grows it?

If they have large sugar exports five years from now, will that change your opinion of Chavez?

Probably not, because your aguments don't address reality.

[bitchkitty]

97. No, he doesn't read anything.

Facts don't interest him. He'd rather come up with phrases like "oil pimp" and insult Chavez' appearance - that's what people do when they don't have facts to back up their assertions. Can't refute something, no problem. Talk about their mama. Call them fat. That's his technique. It's pathetic.

[saigon68]

105. ~

[tama]

45. Oil pimp, yes

Surprise, surprise, I agree! (But just to remind, you get to critizise oil pimps with pure conscience3 only after you stop whoring for their oil... and renounce your neoliberal politics ;-))

My main criticism about Chavez & co of the left is that they still cling to the unsustainable antiecological technocentric paradigm of "growthism", just a little less evil than their neoliberal counterpart. For example:

"According to Bart Jones, author of the recently published biography Hugo!, environmentalists were immediately wary of Chavez when he, upon taking office, continued with a controversial plan to run large electricity cables through the Amazon to Brazil. The project sparked protests from the Pemon indigenous people who opposed the 30-meter tall, 200-megawatt power line passing through their land. This resulted in the militarization of Pemon territory to protect the line from attacks. The project was completed after the Pemon were promised land titles and economic development assistance, and the communities went on to play a major role defining the indigenous rights provisions in the Venezuelan Constitution. Chavez and then-Brazilian President Henrique Cardoso were on hand to cut the ribbon. A Venezuela-led initiative to build a natural gas pipeline from Caracas, through the Brazilian Amazon, to Buenos Aires has recently been put on hold. The 10,000-kilometer Gran Gasoducto del Sur (Great Southern Pipeline) would be the world’s largest pipeline. Friends of the Earth charged that 45,000 square kilometers of forest would be razed for the project. Financial and diplomatic problems—the pipeline would cost an estimated $20 billion—have become, at least for now, insurmountable. The megaproject would cause massive environmental and social damage to the ecosystems and communities through which it would pass."
http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/1203/1/

[eridani]

47. Since the no-oil private sector has been growing faster than the public sector--

--I'll bet all the businesses in that sector really appreciate the "socialism."

[Pavulon]

57. Please quantify that

and then explain to me how seizure of foreign owned companies is sustainable. Every cycle of this runs down the same path in LA.

Someone seizes infrastructure built by a foreign company on contract. Company writes down loss.

Other companies will refuse to do business there or request huge cash up front. This is a crushing long term problem.

Socialism is not seizing assets. His half assed robin hood approach can not be compared to modern functional socialist systems.

[eridani]

59. Statoil, Total, BP and Chevron don't agree with you.

They're staying even though Exxon is still whining. Private sector growth--http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2068

[Pavulon]

64. Looks like a great source, even if correct

how much did inflation grow (21% per the central bank) and how much food is available? Exxon makes more in a year then the entire economy in Venezuela generates.

Look for a better source.

They are going down an unsustainable path.

[eridani]

89. Sustainability is enhanced by government takeover of fallow sugar plantations

There is no reason why Venezuela should not be pretty close to self-sufficient in food production. Reduce poverty, and although the "need" for food has not changed, the "demand" goes up a lot. This is a bad thing because why?

[tama]

92. Unsustainable path

is what US and the whole global capitalism is going down, pretty fast, so I understand your fear. Venezuela has loads of oil so it can stay on the unsustainable path much longer, and friends too, especially if they move to sustainable local small scale organic farming for food production, following the model of Cuba, and stop using land for monoculture biofuel etc. to serve demand in north.

[JohnnyCougar]

33. Facts don't seem to have any effect on them. n/t

[martymar64]

58. They miss Batista and Pinochet

They seem to prefer a strongman that will crush the peasants while enriching the elites and their Yanqui paymasters.
We need a Bolivarian revolution here.

[JohnnyCougar]

61. Hell, why not?

Eating and going to the doctor = terrorism. We got to stop those Venezuelans from eating. They were a lot less of an economic threat to us when they were starving!

[martymar64]

62. I was referring to the critics, not the Venezuleans

But then you knew that, right?


We need a little of what they're doing down there up here.




Damn, this internet and emotionless messaging! :hi:
Welcome to my Buddy list! Keep up the good work!

[JohnnyCougar]

73. Yeah, I was being sarcastic!

I knew what you were talking about!

[Pavulon]

63. Go for a visit

then come back and marvel at how well we have it here. This stuff all sounds great but "wic approved" does not happen there. Medicaid and SSDI are not in place there.

There are people in tremendous poverty there.

This is about Oil and power, here and there.

[Judi Lynn]

65. Only a fool would attempt to claim the poverty is something Chavez created, when it was

instutionalized long ago through the greed and corruption of the Venezuelan oligarchy.

I'm posting snips from a well-read, well-known book, Open Veins of Latin America by Eduardo Galleano. "President" of Venezuela, dictator Juan Vicente Gomez, who had power from 1908 to 1935. Describing the conditions leading up to Gomez:

The euphoria began in the 1920's. Around 1917, oil co-existed in Venezuela with traditional latinfundios, those enormous extensions of thinly populated or idle land where hacendados kept up production by whipping their peons or burying them alive up to the waist. At the end of 1922 the La Rosa well started gushing, 100,000 barrels a day, and the petroleum orgy was on. Lake Maracaibo sprouted rigs and derricks and was invaded by helmeted men: peasants swarmed in to build plank-and-oilcan huts on the bubbling ground and offer their muscles to petroleum. Plains and forests resounded for the first time with Oklahoma and Texas accents, and in the bat of an eye seventy-three companies were born. The carnival king of the concessions was Juan Vicente Gomez, an Andean cattleman who spent his twenty-seven years as dictator (1908-1935) making children and business deals......

Gomez handed out petroleum shares to anyone he favored:

"relations, and courtiers, the doctor who looked after his protate, the generals who served as his bodyguards, the poets who sang his praises, and the archbishop who have him a special dispensation to eat meat on Good Friday."

He sold concessions to Shell, Standard Oil, Gulf.

"The petroleum law of 1922 was drafted by representatives of three U.S. firms. The oilfields were fenced in and had their own police. No one could enter without a company pass, and even the roads on which the oil was transported to the ports were barred to other traffic."
(snip)

Tax cuts in 1954 afforded Standard Oil $300 million in additional profits. A U.S. businessman had said in Caracas in 1953: "Here you have freedom to do what you like with your money; for me, this freedom is worth more than all politicial and civil freedoms put together." When dictator Maracos Perez Jimenez was overthrown in 1958, Venezuela was one huge oilwell, surrounded by jails and torture chambers and importing everything from the United States: cars, refrigerators, condensed milk, eggs, lettuce, laws, and decrees. In 1957, the biggest of Rockefeller's enterprises, Creole, had declared profits equaling almost half of its total investment."

He wrote, of Caracas:

Caracas chews gum and loves synthetic products and canned foods; it never walks, and poisons the clear air of the valley with the fumes of its motorization; its fever to buy, consume, obtain, spend, use, get hold of everything leaves it no time to sleep. From surrounding hillside hovels made of garbage, half a million forgotten people observe the sybaritic scene. The gilded city's avenues glitter with hundreds of thousands of late-model cars, but in the consuming society not everyone consumes. According to the census, half of Venezuela's children and youths do not go to school.

Every day Venezuela produces 3.5 million barrels of petroleum to move the capitalist world's industrial machinery, but four-fifths of the concessions owned by Standard Oil, Shell, Gulf, and Texaco are untouched reserves and over half the value of the exports never returns to the country........ No country has yielded as much for world capitaism in so short a time: the wealth drained from Venezuela, according to Domingo Alberto Rangel, exceeds what the Spaniards took from Potosi or the English from India.
(snip)

From:
Open Veins of Latin America

five centuries of the pillage of a continent

by Eduardo Galeano
Copyright 1973

[tama]

70. With your angry incoherent ramble you sound like

you are all about oil power, afraid of Venezuela stealing your oil and power. So what makes you different from neocons?

[Pavulon]

91. Is that like girl power

oil power. No really can I get an ocean front place with no rent free food and health care. I am , how do they say, up out this bitch if so..

Neocons do not know what to do with a house on the beach, and time to kill.

[fascisthunter]

79. They Prefer Right Wing Governments Over Socialist Democrats

It's pretty obvious why they are here.

[ronnie624]

93. Smackdown! n/t

[Viva_La_Revolution]

29. president for life. I love it when that old canard is pulled out...

"President Hugo Chávez will unveil a project to change the Constitution on Wednesday that is expected to allow him to be RE-ELECTED indefinitely"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3451413

The correct phrase is 'no term limit'.

[PetraPooh]

42. "President for life"??? What a crock of crap, ability to be re-elected without

limits to how many times he can run or hold office is a far cry from "president for life". What a loaded progandized term.

[Warren Stupidity]

55. Or the bolivarian party's platform calls for the implementation of

democratic socialism in venezuela and that is exactly what the bolivarian party is doing. Of course you might want to learn that many of these nationalizations are re-nationalizations of state run industries that the IMF forced venezuela to de-nationalize in the 90's, that much of this is simply the undoing of neo-liberal policies forced onto venezuela, as they were forced onto many nations in latin america and elsewhere, generally with disastrous consequences for the economies and living standards of those nations. The global wall street piracy party, the rape and pillage of the second world, has run its course.

[High Plains]

66. Amazing mind-reading skills!!

[pnorman]

44. "The RevolutionWill Not Be Televised"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

pnorman

[Judi Lynn]

48. Thanks for posting that documentary. People can learn a lot in a short time with it. n/t

[pnorman]

50. I 've learned a lot that I didn't know before, by following this thread.

That documentary, as "Pro-Chavez" as it may be, appears to be pretty close to the mark. There seem to be more than a few anti-Chavez people here on DU. With the utmost cordiality, I invite them to offer their criticism of that film. This is IMPORTANT! The hope of much of the world, was focused on the "Russian Experiment" of 1917. We all know what resulted from such idealistic (but BLIND!) faith in that. We MUST take care how and where we place our allegiances. Thanks to Bush, Cheney, & Halliburton, there is very little leeway for error for making a bad choice.

Probably not many here in DU, could "out-left" me. But I'm of the "libertarian-left", and have a DEEP mistrust of what could be termed a "Leninist" (ie: "Bolshevik") approach. But what I see in Venezuela so far. is a head of state closer to expressing the wishes of the MAJORITY of the the people than up here. I also see NO "Free Speech Zones" there, or any such Orwellian despotism.

pnorman

[Judi Lynn]

52. Did you know Amnesty International was threatened so serverely about showing this documentary

at its own film festival that they feared for the well being of their Venezuela staff, and withdrew it from a screening?

It was discussed here at DU by some DU'ers at the time. Here's an account:

Amnesty forced to Withdraw Chavez documentary

~snip~
....the documentary has been subjected to fierce criticism, Wolfgang Chalk, A Venezuelan TV Producer, and Engineer, has spearhead a campaign backed by such figures as private Venezuelan televisions producers, Generals and the Caracas chief of Police. They?ve campaigned on the internet, with the petition calling for it?s banning. Harassing film festivals and TV stations planning on showing the film, calling on them to withdraw the film from screenings. Judges from one important documentary award even tell of receiving phone calls demanding they don?t choose this film in the days before votes were cast.

This group seized on a decision by Amnesty international in Vancouver; to withdraw the film from it?s forthcoming Human rights festival. Schalk?s, curiously well organised pressure group, took this as ?proof? of their claims of that the documentary was ?lying? and began another round of calls to festivals and TV stations, backed up with this argument.

However Amnesty?s reasons for the withdrawal have nothing to do with Schalk?s harassment and in their statement they say;

"In the final two weeks of October, we received from individuals and groups calls for the cancellation of the screening of the film. During this time we were also contacted by the chair and director of the Venezuelan section who requested us not to show the film. AI Venezuela believed the screening of the film created the perception of an association between Amnesty International and the views portrayed in the film. At the time of the showing, in the highly polarized climate in Venezuela, the perception of association created a security risk for AI Venezuela staff and members, described by the Director as "a real threat against our security and safety".

Amnesty?s reasons for withdrawal of the documentary had nothing to do with the content of the film but rather to do with the very real threat of violence against members of Amnesty International Venezuela, if they went ahead with the screening. Their reasons for removal are being mispresented by a group of people who wish to repress ?The revolution will not be televised?.

The film is currently on a limited US cinema release, with distributors under pressure from powerful lobby groups demanding it?s withdrawal.

http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2003/11/102041.shtml

[pnorman]

53. No, I didn't know that, although I 'hit' DU many times a day!

I'm also a member of AI-USA, but I never saw mention of it there.

Here's a personal recollection: I had attended a local screening screening of that film at a Seattle church, several years back. Just before that film began, a pair of "ladies" entered the place and rushed to the front of the room. There, they began loudly denouncing that film with meaningless blather. Having my camera handy as I usually do, I shot a few pics of that pair. "No pictures!", shrieked one of those cows (Sorry, Judi. I couldn't help myself!) "No pictures, please", echoed the overly-polite "bleeding heart liberal" type sitting next to me. But not being a card-carrying Christian, I stood my ground and asked them: "You come here with a load of unsubstantiated allegations. Who ARE you, and WHOM do you represent? Do you have a website? Do you at least have an email address?" Thereupon that co-, er cu-, er "lady" jotted down an email address and handed it to me. They then both left, and the film commenced. Needless to say, that email address was BOGUS.

I searched for a long time on the internet, and finally found the DVD. Not long after, I found the video on the web. No regrets; better two versions than none at all. Makes it easier to share.

pnorman

[Judi Lynn]

96. Whooo! That's really spooky. It would be so interesting to know who this clowns ARE, as did they

represent simply political raving lunatics, or were they connected to some part of the administration, somehow.

Interesting that they were so protective of their faces appearing in someone's photo, isn't it? Sounds as if they recognized what they were doing was actually very wrong, and could come back to bite them.

As you know, that documentary had VERY limited showing in this country. VERY.

It's interesting that when the film has been available, it has often been shown where groups of people can gather to see it together.

Thanks for mentioning your experience. Not glad it happened, but surely not surprised, either, unfortunately.

[AngryAmish]

54. What could possibly go wrong?

I'm sure this will end well.

[Zorra]

74. This is what happens when an ownership society gets too greedy.

Hungry people take their means of control away from them.

[ohio2007]

75. Sounds like the blueprint Mugabe followed

CRISIS PROFILE: Zimbabwe's humanitarian situation
7/26/05
snip

In 2000, Mugabe introduced new laws that gave the government greater powers to compulsorily acquire land without compensating former owners. The land reform program accelerated and by 2003 the government said about 200,000 black farmers had been given new land.

But critics of the reforms say the process was poorly managed and underfunded. They say the new owners lacked the necessary capital, infrastructure, equipment, seeds and fertilizers, and as a result were unable to farm effectively or at all.

Meanwhile, most of the wealthy white farmers, who had produced the bulk of Zimbabwe's farm exports, have left Zimbabwe, taking with them knowledge and capital.

In just a few years the production of the country's main food and export crops plummeted. Zimbabwe's gross domestic product shrank by 30 percent between 2000 and 2004.

According to Refugees International, many of the new settlers cannot or will not pay farm workers a minimum wage. The group cites reports of workers receiving as little as $3 a month. RI also says some of the new settlers have been forced to turn to fishing, gold panning and sex work to feed themselves.

snip

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/reliefresources/112239842449.htm



I didn't know people were starving in Hugo's land but I guess Hugo had no choice but to take the land and manage it properly.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/16/AR2007061601567.html
I doubt members of his family will be appointed high positions in all this ;)

[JohnnyCougar]

78. Sure. An article about what some stooge said from the World Bank.

That's a real objective source right there.

Spare us the trouble and don't compare Chavez to Mugabe. If you stretch any further, you're likely to pull a muscle. The Venezuelan economy is fine. They reached a record low unemployment rate in January:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aJg_cWr.vvIw&refer=latin_america

Jan. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuela's unemployment rate fell to a record low in December as a fourth year of economic growth spurred increased hiring.

The country's unemployment rate fell to 6.2 percent in December, down from 6.3 percent in November and 8.4 percent in the same month a year earlier, according to an e-mailed statement from the government-run National Statistics institute.

[ohio2007]

82. Your stooge is slipping in the polls. He plans to rule by decree for the rest of his life

Hows that inflation rate going down there in Hugo's garden of eden?

While Fidels brother Raul is moving govt property into the private sector, Hugo truely plans to be the undisputed leader of the revolution but how violent will he get when the people working three jobs can't afford one meal per day?


oh


that won't happen with that oil slush fund he owns I suppose.

[Judi Lynn]

90. Go ahead and put up your proof Hugo Chavez "owns" "that slush fund." You'll be doing

DU'ers a real favor by showing Democrats the error of their way. Should be easy to locate your source of that claim, or you wouldn't have made it.

[Snarkturian Clone]

76. He is Risen!!!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

77. It's kind of ironic. I mean isn't that the same dumb shit they say about the presumptive Democratic

party nominee? You know, the guy in your avatar.

[fascisthunter]

80. lol... good catch

:thumbsup:

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

81. Don't get me wrong the image is kinda funny. But what the hell does it have to do

with anything? What's next are we gonna have people posting about "celestial choirs" in threads about Venezuela?

[Snarkturian Clone]

83. go back to GDP

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

84. Nah, I think I'll post wherever the fuck I want. Apparently I don't even

need to go there to find dumb ass posts.

[Snarkturian Clone]

85. ROFLcopter

http://pichaus.com/apocalypse-roflcopter-rofl-helichopters-bgv!l@.png

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

86. "Look mommy I can paste little cute graphics in the internets."

Can you also ride your bike without using your hands? You like totally kick ass.......LOL like OMG. Who's your BFF?

[Snarkturian Clone]

87. Sorry, you just get flustered so easily I can't resist

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

88. Flustered??? Moi? It's just that teenie boppers crack me up.

Quick somebody get me a graphic so that I an illustrate my point.

[AngryAmish]

98. First you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women

[Dreamer Tatum]

104. Now we know why they banned the Simpsons there

...someone might have caught on to Chavez master plan.

It's all becoming quite clear.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yurbud]

107. kick