Harvard tries women-only gym hours

[BobbyVan]

Source: Associated Press

In a test of Harvard's famed open-mindedness, the university has banned men from one of its gyms for a few hours a week to accommodate Muslim women who say it offends their sense of modesty to exercise in front of the opposite sex.

The policy is already unpopular with many on campus, including some women who consider it sexist.

"I think that it's incorrect in a college setting to institute a policy in which half of the campus gets wronged or denied a resource that's supposed to be for everyone," said student Lucy Caldwell, who also wrote a column in The Harvard Crimson newspaper critical of the new hours.

Student Ola Aljawhary, who is Muslim and works out elsewhere on campus but is not one of the women who requested the change, rejected that argument.

"The majority should be willing to compromise," she said. "I think that's just basic courtesy. We must show tolerance and respect for all others."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080304/ap_on_re_us/harvard_women_s_hours&printer=1

[ananda]

1. Tolerance and respect..

.. what a concept for rich spoiled elitist kids.

[Skittles]

4. it's no such thing

it sounds like intolerance of men

[bitchkitty]

144. Oh, c'mon.

If I frequented the Harvard gym, I'd be happy about women-only hours. Intolerance has nothing to do with it. Modesty does.

[Winterblues]

157. That's what private gyms are for.

This is a public school funded in part by tax payers and should be open to all at all times the building is open.

[MissMillie]

159. there are about 8 or 9 gyms and only one of them

is doing the "women only" thing and only for a couple of hours a week.

It is the gym that is furthest (in distance) from the center of the campus. It is the least used of all the gyms.

At any given time during gym hours men still have access to all of the other gyms.

This really is about accommadating a few people.

[jgraz]

6. Religious fanaticism deserves neither.

[superconnected]

59. Where do you draw the line at recognizing religious rights?

How about when they infringe on others? We'll that's what they're doing here. These spoiled elitist kids need not be forced into religious obedience. Sorry but they're educated enough to know why it's wrong.

I don't plan on recognizing your personal religion. I don't expect others to have to either. That is what happening here with these muslim women and all men on that campus.

[JerseygirlCT]

134. Are you implying that anyone at Harvard is by definition a "rich

spoiled elitist kid"?

[madaboutharry]

2. I think this is good.

It isn't sexist, it is simply respecting others sensibilities. It is a lesson in tolerance.

[Orsino]

78. I don't think that there's a way to paint banning men as "not sexist."

It's trading one intolerance for another. I can understand that such a compromise may be seen as necessary, but let's not kid ourselves about who's being educated. Accomodating sexual segregation is also sexual segregation.

[jgraz]

3. Up next: straights only gym hours

To keep the homophobic Christian men from feeling that teh gays are ogling their bodies.

[pitohui]

25. exactly what i was thinking

people who belong to intolerant religions don't stop when they're humored, give a fascist an inch and the fascist takes a mile

many a religious extremist would love to see gyms closed to gays and for the reason you state -- how do i know, i've heard them say it right out loud!

i guess a private school can do as they please, but if they receive any public funds, then it needs to stop right now, today

the person who thinks i need to be protected from men does not really respect me as a woman nor does he or she truly believe that i'm equal to a man, actions speak louder than words

the lesson being taught here is that all a religious freak has to do is scream "intolerance" and they are humored, a terrible lesson to teach

we simply must stop pretending that people who believe in an invisible sky god are sane and rational and that their belief in their fantasy deserves the same respect as people who are struggling to make decisions based on science and fact

i would say the same if it were a christian nutcase screaming that men and women should be segregated, hell, i'm a little surprised that it isn't

[Habibi]

79. Bingo.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phillysuse]

5. Great - I don't want to go to a gym with black people there

because they are much better athletes than I am and so I will feel uncomfortable.

And I don't want anyone in the gym younger than 50 because they aren't as out of shape as I am.

And I don't want Christians in the gym because they might offend me by eating a ham sandwich in the locker room.

And I only want people weighing more than 200 pounds at the gym because I want to be the skinniest person exercising because if someone weighed less than me, that would make me uncomfortable.

Harvard needs to get real and fast.

[madaboutharry]

7. Not everything has to do with hating other people

I know several woman who are Orthodox Jews who have a very deep belief system that cause them to live "modestly." They would never go to a gym where there were men. Is it really too much to ask to tolerate other people's religious beliefs a couple of hours a week?

[phillysuse]

9. The question here is not whether they can pay to go to

a private gym where they will not be disturbed by men or black people or Jewish people or pork eaters or fat people or disabled people (who wants to look at them?) or people who don't use deodorant or people who exercise in old sweats, not in upscale gym outfits.

The question is whether an institution that takes Federal Funds - i.e. Harvard - can discriminate by gender, disability, race, age or religion.

[madaboutharry]

10. I don't see this as discrimination.

Also, I didn't know that Harvard took Federal Funds. I am under the impression that Harvard is a private institution.

[phillysuse]

11. Harvard takes a lot of Federal funds in grants

I think it is discrimination - how about us fat people get to use the gym when no one skinny is there so we don't feel bad. Let's give fat people Tuesday from 9 to 10 and Thursday from 9 to 10 - not as much time because I really hate to exercise.

[madaboutharry]

24. I just don't see it the way you do. Let's just

agree to disagree. :)

[Occulus]

32. There a vast gulf of difference between your Jewish friends just not going

and the gym not admitting.

On the one hand, they are making a decision for themselves, and it affects nobody.

On the other hand, they are foring a decision on behalf of themselves, and it affects everybody.

If I worked during the hours men were allowed, and not during the hours women only were allowed, and that was my free time I had to work out, I'd be very very pissed off.

No religion deserves this much 'respect'.

[noamnety]

38. There are a number of gyms on campus

and they selected the least used one for this. Nobody is prevented from working out, they might have to suffer the inconvenience of walking to a different gym on campus if they need to use a gym during the 6 hours a week that this is in effect. If you were very very pissed off about having to walk to a free gym, I'd question your amount of privilege in the world.

[BobbyVan]

12. Harvard receives federal funds

"Harvard receives more than $400 million per year in federal grants."


http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=508536

[mac56]

155. Do they accept federally funded student loans and grants?

Federal funds.

[selador]

173. it is discrimination. is it just is the question

how can you not "see" it as discrimination?

if you say women can go, and men can't -that's discrimination

by definition

plenty of discrimination is legal (whether right or wrong) such as women's sports teams. try, as a man, to try out for women's field hockey. you can't

or women's track. heck, marion jones couldn't have made the elite in any decent college team for men. we accept that form of discrimination

but to claim it's not discrimination is an attempt to redefine the word.

it most definitely is.

the question is

1) is it legal
2) is it good policy, if 1 is true

clearly, truly private gyms can do this - see: curves

but it's still discrimination

[Skittles]

14. yes, it is

exericse at home if you are not able to tolerate men

[Pavulon]

16. There are private female only

fitness centers as well. I accept others religious freedoms until they begin to infringe on mine.

[Skittles]

39. YES - that is the key

DO NOT INFRINGE ON THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS!!!!

[superconnected]

56. Sounds like they're infringing on others right now.

But then until it affects you directly, you'll accept it.

[superconnected]

67. Sorry, I initially took your post as in support of this. I see it's not.

[customerserviceguy]

128. Yep, just try to join a Curves facility if you're a man

There's no disrobing, no locker room, etc, just the idea that women don't feel 'comfortable' excercising in front of men. Well, to me that sounds no more compelling than white people feeling uncomfortable dining amongst blacks at the Woolworth lunch counter.

[pitohui]

26. these orthodox women can go to a private club like curves

if you are a bigot and can't be around men, then you need to pay the price, not ask the person you're bigoted against to pay the price

i don't care if god said it was OK or even if god said it was mandatory for you to be bigoted

when "tolerance" is used as an excuse to deprive others, then "tolerance" is just a cheap euphemism for bigotry

[madaboutharry]

27. Calling woman with particular religious beliefs "bigots" is really

inappropriate. They are not bigots. This thread has gotten out of hand.

[pitohui]

31. if you're prejudiced against someone because they are different you're a bigot

"i can't work out with you because you're teh gay or you're teh male" guess what, it's bigotry

[madaboutharry]

33. Oh please

n/t

[Dutch]

72. It's entirely appropriate when their religious beliefs are bigotted

as these clearly are.

[Maine-ah]

80. so it's ok to be a bigot as long as you have your religion to back you up on it?

[lumberjack_jeff]

169. It's exactly the right word.

Their religious beliefs lead them to the conclusion that society should facilitate their right to not be soiled by associating with men. It is no better than the reverse.

The better way to be tolerant of their beliefs is to not require them to go where men are allowed. Buy a nordic track. Join curves.

[Lerkfish]

125. I must say, after reading this thread, that I think some of you would require jews to eat pork

in order to better fit in with others.

sheesh.


when did this turn into bigotunderground?

[customerserviceguy]

129. No, we wouldn't require Jews to eat pork

but we wouldn't let them ban it from the cafeteria for six hours a week just so they wouldn't be offended by the rest of us eating it.

Many of my vegetarian friends are so for ethical reasons. They wouldn't think of enforcing their beliefs on me, they'd much rather persuade me by example. Not much chance of that, but such is the nature of freedom.

[noamnety]

147. When I went to college

the dining hall didn't serve meat on Fridays. Catholic tradition, you know.

And no, we weren't a catholic school.

[The Croquist]

163. I started public College in 1974 (Georgia Tech) and they served meat on Fridays

By 1974 catholics were allowed to eat meat on most Sundays. Most of the students were also non catholics. Perhaps there were so many catholics at your school it wasn't worth serving meat on Friday.

I went to K - 12 on Long Island New York. They didn't serve pork in school. Since about 1/3 of the students were Jewish it didn't make sense to serve pork. That wasn't discrimination it was just common sense.

The K - 12 schools typically closed for both Jewish and Christian holidays. Since they would have had so many missing students it also made sense to close.

When I went to Georgia Tech I was shocked that we didn't close for Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur.

[noamnety]

178. If I'm understanding your point

It seems to be that accommodating the majority religion is "just common sense" whereas accommodating a minority religion in similar ways is discrimination.

Some people call that invisible privilege.

And no, we did not have a lot of catholics at my school. That's so wrong it's funny. On the Princeton Review site, we hit the top ten in the nation for the category "Students Ignore God on a Regular Basis." :D

[The Croquist]

182. You do not understand my point

Why provide a meal that most people won't eat?

That's called common sense. Too bad Princeton didn't teach that.

[noamnety]

183. reading comprehension problems.

I didn't go to Princeton, if that's what you were trying to imply. If you weren't trying to imply that, then I'm having a really hard time understanding the relevancy of what you think Princeton does or doesn't teach.

Invisible privilege is when the majority has things happen for them in a way that benefits them, and we don't examine that, we just assume it's right and normal that they run the world, and decisions are made in a way that happen to benefit them. So their dietary needs, their vacation needs, their work schedules, all aligns to what works for them.

When the same exact things are done to benefit the minority, we act outraged, while we continue to enjoy our own world view that accommodates us as the center of that world.

[The Croquist]

186. So exactly how does this work?

6 hours a week no men are allowed in the gym. Does this include:
Security? Send a female guard. Well keep ducking while the gunman keeps shooting.
Maintenance? Broken pipe, it can wait.
Male seeing eye dogs? How about if they've been neutered?
Emergency personnel? Sorry you can't save her life until after 5 PM
Do gay guys count? I don't see why.
How about lesbians? They certainly shouldn't be allowed in.
How about the transgendered? Thats a tough one.
How about blind guys? can they come in? Is it legally blind or do you just have to promise to take out your contact lenses? It almost makes me wish I didn't have lasik. I might have snuck a look at some ankle!
Do any staff members have offices in the building? Do we lock them in their offices. I sure hope they don't have the runs. Hopefully if they do there will be a female janitor on staff to help out.

If they catch a man in the gym do we behead him or stone him to death? I'm not really up on Sharia law. Maybe you can enlighten us.

[customerserviceguy]

174. While I decry religious influenced blue laws of any sort

like the ones telling me on what days I may buy beer, not offering something on a particular day is not the same type of discrimination as this case. If your dining hall forbade someone from brining in meat on Fridays in a brown-bag lunch, then it would be similar. Likewise, all students were able to pick from the meatless offerings at the dining hall, no one was excluded because they were not Catholic, or were meat-eaters on Friday.

[lumberjack_jeff]

170. Goddamn! How can anyone be so obtuse.

Choosing not to eat pork is a great deal different than ordering all the men out of the restaurant.

[spoony]

62. Excellent post.

I don't know why people have to act so inconvenienced when asked to make even the slightest concession for the sake of harmony in a multicultural community. I imagine that most of the people offended by this never even WENT to that gym.

[Dutch]

73. Yeah, why wont people just shut up and accept a bit of discrimination?

And doubtless you'll agree that if a bunch of people don't want to have to look at black people or Jews and ban them from using a facility, those excluded should just shut up and accept it in the name of harmony, too? After all, most of the people who would be offended have probably never even been on a golf course, right?

[spoony]

127. The only discrimination I see is in this thread, against these women.

Such as dopes like you trying to equate them with racists.

[lumberjack_jeff]

171. No, the correct word is sexists.

I thought we were past all this "get in the back of the bus" stuff.

I am wholly intolerant with this view.

[NashVegas]

95. There Are Other Solutions

They can go off-campus.

[Pavulon]

8. Is it cool for lesbians to go?

I mean that is still ok right? Bad idea. It is not a courtesy. We are not saudi.

[phillysuse]

13. Lesbians can use the gym only when

gay Arab men use it.

[BobbyVan]

18. I thought there weren't ANY gay Arab men?

Woops, I meant no gay Iranian men... My mistake.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hugabear]

146. There are gay Iranian men - but not in Iran

n/t

[eib1]

136. I was thinking along those lines

if it "offends" these Muslim women to exercise around men, I wonder what it does for their sensibilities to be exercising around lesbians and bisexuals.

[noamnety]

21. Wow.

"We are not Saudi."

You know that some of us Americans are Muslim, right?

[Pavulon]

30. Yep. But unlike Saudi

our society is not built to provide special religious privilege. If I require my child to have special religious freedom they will go to a private religious school.

I work with several muslim americans. Both men and women. One is an american convert, others from india. They all enjoy the freedoms granted in the US.

[noamnety]

34. Sorry, you're mistaken.

The public school I went to made allowances for our Jehovah's Witnesses.

You should probably find a way to argue this that doesn't make you sound xenophobic on top of other things.

[Pavulon]

36. Sorry..

Being allowed to not recite the pledge does not equal removing all flags from the building. There is a different between making accommodations and banning men.

Tell me WHY a public place should alter its policy to suit a patriarchal religion.

There is nothing xenophobic about that. Many muslims are born american citizens.

I do not expect the gym to close on SUNDAY.

I refuse to live in a society that bends to every demand from the orthodox regions of religious entities.

[noamnety]

40. Don't be blaming it on people being "saudi"

as if the problem is that we are being overrun with foreigners. It IS xenophobic.

I'm sure if you think really hard you can come up with some examples of how our public places bend to religion as it is. Funny you should mention reciting the pledge ... I was forced to say "under God" in elementary school every single day.

My access to health care is restricted because of the religious convictions of the people making the laws.

There are some products I can't purchase on Sunday mornings.

If you're refusing to live in a society that bends to the demands of religious entities then you should update your profile - cause right now it shows you're living in the US.

[Pavulon]

133. ps Saudi is a theocracy...

where religion is forced on everyone. Including those who visit who are not muslim. That is a bad model and should not exist here. Why should I be forced to change because of someone's belief system. Especially an archaic patriarchal system.

Next no seafood, mini skirts, or mixed gender classes.

I would prefer blue laws be removed. Many states no longer have them.

[eib1]

137. Democracy and freedom

are easy to enjoy, but difficult to extend. They require a kind of generosity that is truly foreign in most parts of the world.
It isn't the right or rights you have that are important.
It's the rights you are willing to extend.
We can't even let gays marry.
Yet it seems so easy to allow such prudery in the name of religion.
This is a secular, pluralistic country.

[MaryCeleste]

15. Where is the reciprocity of mens only hours?

If they insist on this silliness, we should at least insist on equal treatment

[pegleg]

17. If it were Christian women most here would feel differently

[superconnected]

60. I wouldn't. I doubt most would or we would have a different america right now.

[spoony]

61. Yeah, they'd be even more against it, lol.

[Freddie Stubbs]

108. Most here don't think that Islam is bad, unless a presidential candidate is accused of be a Muslim

[GoddessOfGuinness]

142. Not at all...

There are gyms run by Christian fanatics, too.

[Sam Ervin jret]

19. this is total bull! i did not fight my whole life as a feminist to have the clock turned backwards

by "shy" exercising Muslim women. If you don't want people looking at you when you workout, then work out at home or go to a private one sex club. Harvard is not that anymore, thanks to hard working women and forward thinking men. Let's keep it that way.

We have regressed enough in seven years in too many places, this cannot stand.

Every woman in this school should be protesting this. if this stands, then what is the argument that a men's only anything (that takes public monies and is open to the public)should not exist as it has in the past?

This is a danger to women's rights not an accommodation or a courtesy. An accommodation would be to allow them a room in the gym where they could be by themselves should they choose, or a screened off section in the back they can have like in the mosques. Separate from the rest and out of sight.

[noamnety]

22. Can you please make your point in a way

that doesn't deliberately trivialize religious beliefs by equating them with "being shy"?

[jgraz]

28. Can you please make your point in a way

that doesn't give undue weight to 8th-century misogynist superstitions?

[Codedonkey]

167. :D

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noamnety]

35. A reminder about the DU rules

From the DU rules: "Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on ... religion ... "

You're out of line here.

[hifalutin]

54. Well said!!!

Kudos

[mainegreen]

188. Exactly so.

:thumbsup:

[Lisa Seagren]

20. Equality

Our is supposed to be an Equal society. This teaches intolerance towards equality and supports segregation. This is not fair and is unacceptable.

[Beregond2]

23. Gyms

Speaking as someone who remembers when women were never seen at gyms, I wish they were ALL segregated. Then maybe I wouldn't have to deal with straight people clogging the gym for hours because they think it's a meatrack. Lift, shower, then go to a fucking bar if you need to get laid that badly!

[Nikia]

37. I don't have a problem this

Harvard has multiple gyms so I don't think that this is a terrible inconvience. I went to a smaller private college with more limited facilities and sometimes some of the gyms and weight rooms were completely taken over by one of the athletic teams, some of which were single gender. It probably happens at Harvard too that sometimes women are prohibted from using a particuliar weight room or gym because the men's football (or other sport) is using it. The fact that there are private women's gyms and private gyms with women only rooms shows that this sort of thing is in demand. I don't see why it is such a big deal as long as it is for a limited time and there are other facilities on campus.

[noamnety]

41. Thank you for raising that point.

When men's teams routinely take over college gym facilities, we don't see it as "sexist" - we just see it as ... well, invisible male privilege. Of course they have the right to reserve the gym cause they have big important guy things to do there in preparation for their big important guy sports.

In addition to several large main gyms on campus that are used more often than this one, the dorms themselves at Harvard have their own gyms. I somehow think the menfolk there will survive this great hardship.

[Fountain79]

44. Invisible male priviledge?

When i went a public university in Missouri there was a student center and an athletic center. There would still be people there from both male and female sports teams taking up equipment. There was no priviledge one way or the other. Now as far as the "menfolk" using the dorm gyms....why is this an impossibility for a woman who feels her modesty being violated? Sexism is ok as long as it is against men?

[noamnety]

46. oh baloney.

It's no giant secret in this country that public tax dollars have been spent in unbelievably disproportionate amounts for men to participate in sports.

It starts in regular public schools - the amount my high school spent on football equipment was a little beyond the budget of what was spent on field hockey. :eyes:

Then in universities we have private facilities built exclusively for men's teams. "football team locker room and weight room," http://www.baylor.edu/development/news.php?action=story&story=46007

All the people who are bent out of shape suddenly at 6 hours devoted to women at one of many gyms on campus ... I want to know why I haven't heard a peep of outrage about entire training rooms being built for the men in the years I've been on this site? And I'm guessing I won't hear any outrage about that now, either.

All the tax dollars spent to build stadiums in cities so men can play football or baseball or hockey? I have yet to hear a single person object on the grounds that it's sexist.

When men get special facilities at public expense, we consider that the normal way of the world. When women get one tiny fraction of the privilege that men take for granted, the hypocritical backlash rises up like the universe has been turned upside down.

So save your mock outrage for the next stadium you see that was financed in part with public funds. Cause I guarantee you it was built for the men to use, and the men to profit from. And when they are using it, the women don't get an equivalent facility down the street they can use for free during those hours - and I guarantee you the time the women are banned from using it is gonna be more than 6 hours a week.

The Burton Family Football Complex is the on-campus home to the University of Connecticut football team and opened in the summer of 2006.

Looks like a nice facility, doesn't it?

Unbelievable that the whole thing could be built for men, and you know if one tiny little run-down gym across campus from that was reserved for women 1 hour a week, people here would be screaming about how the university is discriminating against men.

[superconnected]

57. The problem is the men are banned for "religious" reasons.

They need a far better excuse than that or this is already out of hand.

[davidinalameda]

48. teams are a different story

these are individuals

I'm sure that the women's teams have their reserved times as well

[noamnety]

50. Oh, I know, male privilege is always "a different story."

and yeah, I'm sure the women's teams' facilities are equivalent. Just like the women's version of the Superdome or Tiger Stadium is just like the men's facility. :eyes:

[davidinalameda]

53. it's economics

men's sports bring in more money to schools than women's

sad fact of life

[noamnety]

69. And in our country, MONEY is our religion.

Men get special privileges because they have economic power ... and then we justify it by saying "for some reason it's economically better for men to have these privileges - that's just the way of the world."

It doesn't help the women any to know that they are discriminated against - in orders of magnitude that eclipse this - because it makes good economic sense to discriminate against women.

Thank you though for making such a brave stand in favor of women being second class citizens for profit reasons. That's charming.

When you can stop manufacturing excuses and justifications for why male privilege by the truckload is a "whole other story" and cannot be touched, while the faintest whiff of female privilege must be smacked down immediately because if we don't, we risk turning into one of them heathen fundie countries (:eyes:) let me know.

In the meantime, enjoy the privileges you have, thanks to institutional sexism.

[Fountain79]

120. Institutional sexism?

Let's talk about that for a second shall we?

As a woman you don't have to register for selective service, as a man I do. If there was ever a war large enough to require a draft again I would be called and you wouldn't.

If we were to ever be married and have a child and then get a divorce the law would almost always look favorably upon you in that regard. I could be the best dad in the world and the burden of proof would be on me to prove that you are an unfit mother.

It is perfectly fine to have all women gyms, colleges, and jobs that men can not be hired for.

Can you think of any crime that a woman can be falsely accused of that can be as damaging to their lives as rape for men?

Those are just a few examples.

Now....

When it comes down to sports it IS an economic issue. Men's football and basketball are typically the largest revenue makers for high school and college sports. I remember as a high school wrestler being frustrated about our budget versus basketball but we didn't make as much money for the school...period. Now do I think that sports is taken to a level too far in our schools and we are failing a generation of students by letting them slide because they can play well? Yes. Even if they make it to the NBA/NFL they are so hopeless that they are broke by the time they are done.

Still, it's obvious that you have such an ax to grind that you can not simply recognize the fact that this is a case of a religious group getting special treatment, based on their beliefs. If they want to raise funds for their own gym, then by all means they can do it. It still boils down to a religious group getting special treatment.

[noamnety]

132. Gosh, the system really IS stacked against men! (nt)

:eyes:

[Fountain79]

138. I'll just leave it out that....

You have an agenda, you aren't bending, I have better things to do.

[davidinalameda]

139. blah blah blah

if you'd take a look-men's sports that don't generate revenue like wrestling get short shafted as well

it has little to do with sexism

you have schools like Rutgers that give their women's basketball teams more resources than their men's because they have a history of winning and pull in more bucks

[The Croquist]

190. Cities have multiple parks too.

Are you in favor of naivety scenes on public property using public funds?

How about the 10 commandments in only a few courtrooms?

[Fountain79]

42. You know there comes a point....

Where you have to say...What the hell? If they are truly offeneded they should just stay at home and work at there. Why do people continually have the notion that they have a right to not be offended?

[noamnety]

45. It's not a matter of being offended.

They are abiding by personal religious requirements, the same sort of thing as wearing a hijab in male company. They don't do that because they are "offended" by men.

[Fountain79]

81. Wearing a hijab is one thing...

That only affects them, but when they insist on private time in a gym because they can't handle being around men at the same time, then that is when religion has crossed into affecting other people.

[davidinalameda]

47. just like those majority Muslim country show tolerance and respect for others?

sing me another one sister

[noamnety]

49. Considering we're in the middle of killing a few million of them

I'm not sure the people in this country are in a position to judge the tolerance and respect of predominantly Muslim countries at this moment in history.

[davidinalameda]

52. let's talk about tolerance

how many Muslim countries have the death penalty for homosexuality on their books?

how many Muslim countries discriminate against Jews and Christians and other faiths?

and we all know about the tolerance and respect that the Iranian president has for others

has he called for the destruction of Israel lately?

just curious

[noamnety]

68. You're worried about the Iranian president TALKING about destroying a country?

We actually ARE doing that. Which do you think is worse?

You're upset that Muslim countries have the death penalty "on their books". And several times have used it. And yes, that's awful.

But we are killing far more homosexuals in the middle east than they are.

We're so tolerant, we're killing them just for being Iraqis. What are we up to now, 2,500,000 people we've killed? (1.5 million under Clinton, 1 million under Bush.) If they have a 5% rate of homosexuality, that would mean we've killed 125,000 Iraqi gays and lesbians. How do they compare to that?

Lemme guess ... that's a "different story."

We have no moral ground to be talking about how intolerant people in the middle east are, as we're slaughtering them.

[davidinalameda]

140. you need to open your eyes

the Muslim governments kill the gays and lesbians in their country

in Iraq, you have state-sponsored killing of gays

it has nothing to do with the American occupation

I don't feel sorry for a bunch of spoiled girls at Harvard wanting their own gym

hell, if they were living in the Middle East, most of them wouldn't be able to attend any type of school

[superconnected]

58. Wow, you must not be following any of the mideast issues.

Americans are far more tolerant and have a big place to speak. We aren't hanging 16 yo girls in the street for indecency right now. We aren't arresting women when they go out with out a male family member escort or show some skin. Those are NOT tolerant countries, we need NOT start playing by their intolerant rules. We have a big place to speak or we will become like them.

[noamnety]

150. We aren't hanging 16 year old girls in the street, nope.

We're just raping them (see haditha, okinawa, kbr, etc) and killing them with bullets, bombs, white phosphorus, and depleted uranium, and killing their parents. Now that we're done starving them and withholding medical care.

I'm sure in your head that somehow makes us morally superior, but I'm not seeing it.

[spoony]

64. Intolerance toward individuals to punish some countries' intolerance,

there's a sure-fire path to victory.

[superconnected]

66. Actually the mideast countries show what implementing this leads to.

Tolerance can start with those women recognizing others initial right to be in a public gym with them.

Once recognizing men shouldn't be at a place in at a specific time for "religious" reasons starts, where does it stop?

How would you have felt about this if it were Muslim men wanting to ban all women from that gym for a few hours a week?

There's a reason the fore-fathers seperated religion and state. Harvard needs to re-visit that one.

Harvard isn't just a school, it's a business. Since it's now invoking gender discrimination I hope they get sued. "Religion", is not a valid reason to use to discriminate.

[brentspeak]

51. If this was occurring at Joe No-Name College, the national press probably wouldn't report it

But since this is Harvard, the press falls all over themselves to breathlessly cover the story. Man, what a shallow society we're forced to live in.

:eyes:

[superconnected]

55. I'm against this since they're doing it for "religious" reasons.

I don't need people to be banned from anything for my religion. I don't expect myself or others to be banned from things for anyone elses.

I'd like to know when the Men only hours are going to be incorporated. It's only fair if they're going to do this.

I don't think any religion should force it's values on others. That is what is happening there.

[superconnected]

63. Can everyone in support of this please stop responding on du between 9am -9pm.

My religion specifies that everyone who doesn't think like me be banned from this site for 12 hours a day.

I expect everyone to do this out of religious tolerance.

Oh yeah, and can all the men on this site not come during those hours, I'm shy. There's plenty of other sites on the web for you, so I expect you to do this out of courtesy. If you don't, you're obviously an intolerant hater of people not like you.

[MissMillie]

162. I think you're missing something here

And the point has been brought up a couple of times, but I still think it's being missed.

There are several gyms here at Harvard (I work here).

Only one of the gyms is going "women only" and only for a few hours a day Monday through Friday.

During any of these "women only" hours, there are several other gyms open and available to everyone who might want to work out.

It's not that men are "banned" from using the gym during these hours. They are banned from that one gym, and they have access to all the other ones.

The gym in question is the furthest from the center of the campus (distance-wise). It is also the least used gym on campus.

Harvard is trying to accommodate the religious conviction of a few people and they are doing it at absolutely no expense to anyone else.

Is there really any harm in that?

I think that these women have the right to practice their faith. And since accommodating them is really not taking anything away from anyone (all the other gyms are still open to everyone).

I don't think that all the men at Harvard have the "right" to watch all the women at Harvard work out.

[LeftyMom]

65. If they want a gym with no men, Curves is what- $30/mo?

If they want campus facilities to be free of men, they can apply to one of the Sisters. If they want to join the twenty first fucking century, college is as good a place as any.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

74. Good point..

but do Curves have private gyms with no windows? You know they (muslim )don't want any body to see whats under their veils.

[LeftyMom]

92. It's a franchise. If there's demand, somebody will undoubtedly open one.

[LostinVA]

98. Why do you want to make the Baby Mohamed cry???

[MissMillie]

160. seriously... the gym membership on campus is SUBSTANTIALLY lower than that

this is not all campus facilities. This is one gym out of several, and it's only for a few hours a day.

As long as everyone else still has access to the other gyms during these "women only hours" at this one gym, then what is the harm in accommodating these women?

[lumberjack_jeff]

166. Accommodation by exclusion....

is not an accommodation. It is the opposite.

This is no more just or reasonable than banning women from the gym to accommodate the religious beliefs of some men.

Joining a curves franchise is a perfectly reasonable suggestion - and I don't care that it costs more - no one has a civil right to keep me out of public accommodations.

[LeftyMom]

172. Precedent.

We don't need to give the impression that our society generally or our educational institutions specifically are going to inconvenience others based on outdated religious nonsense. Because next it'll be "I'm a Psychology major, and I have to take Human Sexuality, but I don't feel comfortable discussing those issues with men in the room" or some other, more intrusive, request. Perhaps that only female staff be allowed to make repairs on the dorms used by muslimas, or something along those lines.

Because the basic issue here is that either you believe in a society where the sexes are equal and free to interact, or you don't. Some students will not, but it's vital that our institutions not lend credence to that belief. As a woman and as a student myself, it's vital to my interests and well-being that no suggestion or hint that an equal society is negotiable be given in American higher education.

[Book Lover]

175. Well said (nm)

[Scout]

184. Curves isn't a gym ... and it sucks n/t

[rolleitreks]

70. Why are superstitious people admitted to our finest universities at all? n/t

[noamnety]

71. WTF.

Calling religious people "superstitious" is bigoted. Arguing that only atheists should be allowed to have a higher education is beyond bigoted.

When you do that shit, you lose all credibility to judge others for being tolerant.

Must be nice to be so superior to Dr. MLK, Jr. What all have you accomplished with that PhD you earned when you were 26?


(please refer to the DU rules regarding bigoted comments toward religions.)

[rolleitreks]

153. From the Shorter OED:

Superstition, noun

. . . credulity regarding religion or the supernatural . . . (like thinking any "god" would give a damn who you exercise with . . .)

Credulity, noun

. . . disposition to believe on weak or insufficient grounds . . . (like, maybe "holy scripture"?)

[noamnety]

164. Please refer to the DU rules

regarding respect toward people with a variety of religious beliefs.

[rolleitreks]

165. You got a link? I thought this might cover the situation:

"People who are easily offended, or who are not accustomed to having their opinions (including deeply personal convictions) challenged may not feel entirely comfortable here. "

But I urge you to complain to the moderators if you think I'm in the wrong -- cool with me.

[noamnety]

177. Here are the rules regarding mocking others' religion.

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view.

Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence.

With regard to religion (or the lack thereof), Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, and others. All are welcome here. For this reason, we expect members to make an extra effort to be sensitive to different religious beliefs, and to show respect to members who hold different religious beliefs. Members are welcome to discuss whether they agree or disagree with particular religious beliefs, but they are expected to do so in a relatively sensitive and respectful manner. As a general rule, discussions about ideas are usually permitted, but broad-brush bigoted statements about groups of people — either religious or non-religious — are not. If you are easily offended by discussions about religious beliefs, or if you take pleasure from offending or ridiculing people with different beliefs, or if you consider progressive people with different beliefs to be your enemy or your inferior, do not participate in religious discussions on Democratic Underground.

[rolleitreks]

189. Thanks. Not sure it fits but will think twice in the future. n/t

[spoony]

185. Maybe because they founded them and laid the

framework for western educational systems?

[Seeking Serenity]

75. Next thing to happen . . .

Muslim students demand that Harvard canteens, cafes, and restaurants stop selling food during daylight hours during Ramadan, when Muslims are religiously required to fast.

Harvard cravenly agrees. "It's hardly an imposition on our campus community to refrain from eating during this holy month as an expression of religious tolerance."

[noamnety]

84. and gay marriage will lead to marrying turtles?

Senator Cornyn, is that you?

[Seeking Serenity]

87. Where does it stop,

and how do you logically justify that arbitrary line?

Discrimination against one hurts us all.

"When they came for the Jews, I didn't care because I wasn't Jewish," etc.

[noamnety]

93. "Discrimination against one hurts us all."

This is in a thread filled with religious intolerance and intolerance against foreigners, where people have suggested that unless you share their belief system, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to go to college at all, and where others have suggested that discrimination against women is a good thing if it creates profits.

This thread is a huge demonstration of how power recreates power, how those in power are incapable of seeing their own privilege when faced with overwhelming evidence of it, and how any attempts by those without privilege to grasp at even a tiny scrap of what those in power take for granted is met with outrage, backlash, and general support for each others' expression of bigotry.

When are people going to express 1/10th of this sort of outrage at entire facilities being carved out for men on campus 24 hours a day?

[Seeking Serenity]

100. One person's intolerance does not excuse discrimination by another.

So you see this as, what, a blow against the patriarchy? Permit these Muslim women to have sex-segregated time in an otherwise public facility because of power differential?

And the article didn't mention them wanting separate time because of any feminist struggles, but because of their religious sensibilities.

Your religious sensibilities stop where my nose begins (to paraphrase an old maxim). You are entitled to your religious sensibilities until they affect me or the public at large or well-held public policies (such as the ban on sex discrimination).

[noamnety]

110. I'm just saying it's very telling what people get outraged over.

Entire facilities for men? Check. Not a problem - nothing to get worked up about.

Women forced into giving birth and having their health care withheld because of the Christians? Yeah, yeah, kind of getting used to that, no big deal, maybe we should compromise anyway on the whole pro-choice thing in order to woo the independents.

But six hours for women at a gym when the guys have to walk to the other building? Holy Mother of God, the discrimination against men under the guise of religion is on the verge of turning us into the next Iran!!!11!!!1

Some days I wonder if DU has any sense of perspective left in its collective brain.

[Seeking Serenity]

112. "I'm just saying it's very telling what people get outraged over."

Start a new thread about exclusive gyms for the athletes, or any of the other issues you raised. You'll get lots of outrage there, too.

You notion of "we can't/haven't/won't do anything about these unrelated outrages, so that makes this bit of sex discrimination OK" is maddening in its non sequitur because there is no trying to reason with that.

[Orsino]

76. I tend to side against segregation, too.

My sympathies are with the oppressed, generally, but I don't like the idea of reinforcing stereotypes.

Go to a gym to work. If you're worried about others' eyes on you, well, let's hope you burn a few more calories that way, and can go home and hide that much faster.

[Ordr]

77. Disgusting.

I guess pandering to extremists is progressive now.

[Habibi]

82. Is there an Islamic center nearby but off-campus?

Perhaps they could install a gym or offer women-only fitness programs.

[Ordr]

83. "Perhaps they could install a gym or offer women-only fitness programs."

Why would they do that when they can guilt a university into doing it for them?

[Habibi]

85. My guess is

this policy will fail.

[Ordr]

86. "this policy will fail."

Agreed.

[Seeking Serenity]

88. The policy should never have been implemented in the first place.

[Ordr]

89. Implementation.

I couldn't agree more that it shouldn't have been put in place. As I stated in the other thread about this topic, though, it frightens me to think that this seems to be the direction toward which our party seems to be heading.

[Seeking Serenity]

91. Agreed. (n/t)

[JerseygirlCT]

135. That's what I was wondering. Or find some Muslim alumni

who might be interested in funding such a gym?

[Lorien]

151. Invite in a "curves" francise

That's a women's only gym. There's a gay men's only gym up the street from me,so other sorts of PRIVATE exclusive gyms do exist. But I don't think that exclusive gyms of any sort belong on campus-unless they did a men's only/ women's only thing for a few hours every day. It's so expensive to attend any university now that no one who pays for an education should be excluded from the services that they have paid for for reasons of gender, race, etc. If there were men's hours only due to a group's faith I think that some of the comments here might be a bit different.

[ReformedChris]

90. Its amazing how Tolerance and Respect have turned into a pathetic Chosen Segregation

Civil Rights Leaders fought decades of battles for equality only to see people fighting FOR segregated activities now. Its pretty depressing that segregation is used under the banner of "Tolerance". All religions need to be put on equal footing. There is no special segregated Jewish or Christian gym, so Islamic students should not have a gym.

[noamnety]

96. Is that how you feel about women's colleges and historically black colleges?

"pathetic chosen segregation"

?

[ReformedChris]

102. "Historically Black Colleges" Great institutions that were created to overcome segregation

Historically Black and Womens Colleges were chartered to carry out the mission of educating those afflicted by racism/sexism. I shudder to think of a world where black or womens colleges did not exist. When students today at coed facilities that are multicultural demand religious "accomodations" that equal segregation against ANY other group there is no other choice then to label it as"Chosen Segregation". They choose to demand segregation against others. And I find it pathetic, don't you? That someone would have to change their lifestyle to accomodate a religious belief? I would hope any liberal person would be progressive enough to understand that coexistence includes such "radical" things as conducting the normal business of our lives together. I respect differences and religious beliefs, but not at the price of pushing back individuality.

[Seeking Serenity]

103. HBCs aren't single-race schools

Whites, Asians, et al., are free to attend HBCs, and many have. And if you have a single-sex college supported by public funds, then I'm going to have a problem.

No discrimination for me, no discrimination for thee.

[noamnety]

105. Then I suggest you get outraged over Wellesley College.

They got $4,000,000 in federal dollars in 2006. And ALL of their gyms are for women. :)

(Of course that doesn't play into anti-Muslim anti-immigration fears, so it doesn't get this kind of attention in Bush's America.)

[Seeking Serenity]

111. I oppose any discrimination or segregation based on race, sex, et al. that is supported

by tax dollars. You want to start a thread on Wellesley? Go ahead; I'll contribute.

[noamnety]

114. Yep, I see how this works.

Discrimination against men (for 6 hours a week) may only be discussed in a complete vacuum that has no reference to history, culture, or other societal norms.

That's funny. :)

Next we should start a thread about discrimination against white Christian men in this country. (or wait, is that what this is?)

[Seeking Serenity]

116. No, you don't see how it works.

I don't support discrimination in one area as payback for wrongs elsewhere.

What, do think this is some glorious blow against the patriarchy in support of the oppressed?

No. It's just discrimination wrapped up in the shawl of religious sensitivities.

We don't permit from Christians (of which I am one); we shouldn't permit it from Muslims. At least not where issues of public accomodation are concerned. If a Muslim group wants to open its own gym and have sex-segregated hours, more power to them.

[superconnected]

122. Excellent Post!

[fujiyama]

176. HBCUs admit people of all different races

I know a guy from HS who is Bangladeshi and he's attending Howard University Law School.

Harvard is a co-ed campus. If I were a Harvard student I'd be pissed. If I pay student dues and am restricted from using it during open hours, it clearly is discrimination. I'd tell the university to refund some of those dues.

It doesn't matter if they have 1 gym or 100 on campus - unless all the gyms allow equal accessibility for both sexes, it's discriminatory. These women should join a Curves or work out on their own time. Or as another poster suggested, a local Muslim organization could build a gym with sex-segregated work hours...

[NashVegas]

94. :(

Just one step closer to theocracy.

[noamnety]

97. Oh yes, we are on the verge of being taken over by Muslims now.

:eyes:

One gym being reserved for 6 hours a week when other gyms are provided on the same campus to ensure both genders still have full access to workout facilities ... vs. abortions being prohibited, restricted, birth control being removed from federal insurance coverage, hospitals and pharmacies refusing to dispense EC to rape victims ...

I wonder which one I should be concerned about.

[NashVegas]

99. You So Don't Get It

This is setting aside normal policy to support a specific religion.

[noamnety]

115. I get it just fine.

I've lived my life under the rule of a religion I'm not part of.

Hilarious to me to watch people pretend that's not the case.

[Seeking Serenity]

117. "I've lived my life under the rule of a religion I'm not part of."

Really? And that "rule" has forced you to act contrary to your religion how, exactly? (And, not to put too fine a point on it, no religion "rules" in this country -- although one clearly is predominant in the culture, no doubt.)

No one at Harvard is forcing these Muslim women to exercise in the presence of men. They make that choice if they want to exercise in public accomodations that are and should be open to all regardless of race, sex, etc.

[noamnety]

119. Please see post 40

daily affirmations to a deity I don't believe in
restricted health care access due to laws made by religious fanatics
limited freedom over my own body
a choice between scrubbing toilets or attending church (thank you US army)
restrictions on where I can legally hold office
restrictions on who I can or can't marry

If the biggest religious imposition in my life was that I was a man attending Harvard University and I had to walk across campus to a free gym, well, shit, my level of privilege would have just shot so high my feet wouldn't be able to hit the ground.

And this doesn't even begin to address the privileges that go with being male at harvard in a system built by men for men. (Please see stadium photo). We rationalize and excuse any privilege given to men by religion (freedom regarding health care), and we rationalize and excuse any privilege given to men by the almighty dollar.

Men's and women's athletics are overwhelmingly segregated at the high school level, the college level, and the professional level. And yet - no outrage over that. Entire programs and sports are dedicated to one group or the other. Stadiums are reserved for an all women's event, or an all men's event every day on campuses all over the country. I am willing to bet if the football team reserved that one gym for weight training 6 hours a week, we wouldn't be hearing a peep about it. Just like nobody is making a peep about that monstrosity of a stadium - built for men.

[fujiyama]

179. Ummm, if I'm paying student dues

and there is a gym closer to me, I want to be able to use it dammit!

"
If the biggest religious imposition in my life was that I was a man attending Harvard University and I had to walk across campus to a free gym, well, shit, my level of privilege would have just shot so high my feet wouldn't be able to hit the ground.
"

Fuck that, if I attend supposedly one of the finest (and most expensive) educational institutions in the world, I expect to get what is owed, not having some religious beliefs imposed instead.

The ones being whiny here and seeking privilege are these women, who want special rules and accommodations due to their backwards assed superstitious beliefs. If they don't want to deal with the idea of equality between the sexes on a co-ed campus they should A) go to a women's only school or B) join a Curves.

[Seeking Serenity]

101. Both sexes already HAVE access to gym facilities without this new policy!

Ms. Muslim Harvard student, want to go work out? Go ahead, there's nothing stopping you. The same as anyone else!

[noamnety]

106. and they HAVE access to gym facilities WITH the new policy.

your point?

[Seeking Serenity]

109. They had access to the facilities before but without the discrimination in the new policy.

[noamnety]

113. Here is the men's facility at Harvard:

(awaiting your outrage)

[Seeking Serenity]

118. Lord, give me patience.

:banghead:

[superconnected]

123. You are arguing with someone who chooses to carry a male bias

and chooses not to be fair.

This thread is full of excellent points on why this is wrong. This person choses to ignore others rights and see it only their way.

[Seeking Serenity]

149. Yes, I've realised that (n/t)

[Codedonkey]

168. lol... it is amusing to read though...

[RantinRavin]

104. Now is the operative point

6 months from now they will be complaining that 6 hours is not enough, they want a whole day...then a whole week....

[noamnety]

107. and then they marry the turtles!!!111!!! (nt)

[ozone_man]

121. Banning men is not being "open minded".

I thought Harvard stopped being a religious institution years ago, but apparently not.

[Lerkfish]

124. in my gym, they have a women's only room, and none of them are muslim

if accomodations can be made for secular reasons of vanity, all the more reason accomodations can be made for devout religious reasons.

[superconnected]

126. I'm sure the muslim men don't really want women in the classrooms or the gyms

with them for religious reasons.

Since you're recognizing religion to dictate rules for everyone, isn't it about time we made concession for Muslim men too?

What next, female genital multilation? Let's start making everyone follow a few's religious practices... :sarcasm:

[Lerkfish]

130. wow, you jump from what I said to female genital mutilation?

I think you have a proportional debating issue.

[superconnected]

131. And I think you nailed the problem.

You can't see what discriminating for religion will lead to.

If you think women will ultimately win if religious discrimination starts being allowed, you're out of your fucking mind. Women will suffer the worst.

It won't likely be genital mutilation but it will be a multilation of womens rights.

Invite religious discrimination in , and see where that lands you. Start by reverse discrimination and give men a right to call equal laws under religious ground.

These women are fools, and harvard should know better.

[noamnety]

143. "IF"?

"IF religious discrimination starts being allowed"?


hahahahahahaha

What the hell country have you been living in?


If. hahahhaahahahahaha

[superconnected]

181. and yet you support more discrimination all over this thread.

I'm sorry you haven't figured out what the rest of us are talking about yet.

[Lerkfish]

145. you didn't understand my post at all. Let my type slower

I was saying my gym, a normal nonreligious professional gym, makes available to those women who wish to, a separate excercise area. They do this NOT for religious reasons, but because many women are self-conscious about excercising around men.
An accomodation was made, it causes no issues or problems, it wasn't done to respect or disrespect any religion. Yet, it works.

I'm saying if that arrangment can be made for secular reasons, what is wrong with arriving at the exact same solution out of respect for religious reasons?

[superconnected]

180. Because the second you do it for religious reasons

it will have to be done for all religions and it will go to far.

[Lerkfish]

191. what is "to(o) far?"

just curious

[GoddessOfGuinness]

141. Sorry...I think these women need a religion-sponsored gym.

YWCA, maybe...unless the fact that it is run by Christians offends their modesty. The local Islamic center, then...or is that only open to men?

[ozone_man]

152. Precisely.

It's one thing to make a male or female exercise room based on secular reasons, but quite a different matter when it is based on religious differences. That decision is only appropriate for religious organizations.

[0007]

148. Wow! This sounds like Butthead & Beavis stuff........Guess

Jane Fonda isn't a big star with the ME girls, huh?

[tidy_bowl]

156. One woman's tolerance....

.....is another man's intolerance.

[snooper2]

158. If X-ians wanted this people on this board would be all over it..

Fuck special treatment for any religion....

Practice at your own risk

[noamnety]

161. Really? From the harvard website:

"Preaching of a high order is a tradition here, a tradition renewed every year when the pulpit is occupied by world religious leaders as well as by its resident clergy."

http://www.memorialchurch.harvard.edu/history/history.shtml

Seems to me people are just fine with having facilities on the Harvard campus set aside for religious purposes - so long as it isn't the "wrong" religion. Christian chapel? No problem. A single fountain to wash feet in? Lord have mercy, for that we're gonna need to all restart our pacemakers.

[snooper2]

187. Thanks, you proved my point...

It's going to take a couple thousand years I imagine to raise the masses to the knowledge level required.