Venezuelan troops seize food

[water]

Source: tvnz.co.nz (Reuters)

Venezuela's top food company has accused troops of illegally seizing more than 500 tonnes of food from its trucks as part of President Hugo Chavez's campaign to stem shortages.

The leftist Chavez this week created a state food distributor and loosened some price controls, seeking to end months of shortages for staples like milk and eggs that have caused long lines and upset his supporters in the OPEC nation.

Read more: http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/536641/1555965

---

Supporting Chavez is as bad as supporting Reagan.

[fascisthunter]

1. "Supporting Chavez is as bad as supporting Reagan.".... lol

oh ok

[bitchkitty]

55. I know - for a supposedly progressive board,

the ignorance on here is astounding, isn't it?

[EFerrari]

103. We get live ones and also propagandists, too. n/t

[EFerrari]

2. Right -- because Raygun did SO MUCH for the poor.

lol

[FiveGoodMen]

3. How well I remember Reagan struggling to end hunger!

[LakeSamish706]

4. "Supporting Chavez is as bad as supporting Reagan" What do you...

mean by that exactly?

[water]

5. I mean that both are equally disgusting people...

...and at this rate, he's going to cause some fascist leader to be politically viable.

[LakeSamish706]

6. Sorry but I beg to differ with you on that... I happen to think that Chevez...

is a very decent person and does much good for his people.

[7 of 11]

14. But his type of extreme socialism does not work,

Never has and never will. The only thing this type of forces socialism will do is make everyone equally poor and impoverished.

Venezuela is suffering an unbelievable brain drain because all the educated people are fleeing the country for destinations in Europe and other places in the Americas. Now, there are not enough engineers left to effectively run the oil rigs and so they are struggling to meet demand. The same thing is happening to people in all high tech fields. And soon Venezuela will end up as poor as Cuba.


I have distant relatives over there and they may try to move to Spain or Australia this summer. They basically feel they are being driven out of the country by the socialist regime there.

[EFerrari]

15. Oh, please. How extreme can he be if the opposition still owns the media?

You may want to read around because your view is skewed.

[7 of 11]

17. Where have you been?

Chavez nationalized...erhhh stole it from the former owners.


I believe in social programs and we have to look to Europe as a model and not Maoist China or the Soviet Union like Chavez is doing. The man simply takes what he wants through a kangaroo court system.

I'm glad the King of Spain told him to shut up.

[EFerrari]

18. That's simply not true. You may want to go read something

about Venezuela.

[Tejas]

196. Helloooo? Like maybe the OP? Did YOU read it?

from the article:
"He announced an increase of more than 30% in the retail price of milk in an effort to ease shortages"

and in the same breath.......

"Anyone who is distributing food ... and is speculating, we must intervene and we must expropriate (the business) and put it in the hands of the state and the communities."



He jacks the price of milk and then cautions against anyone else jacking prices. Notwithstanding the mention of OVER 500 TONS of food that is in limbo due to this nut.

[Andrushka]

115. Aghhh!

"Chavez nationalized...erhhh stole it from the former owners."

"The man simply takes what he wants through a kangaroo court system."

And the ignorance keeps on coming... :crazy:

[Wiley50]

159. 7 of 11? 51 of 52 is more like it

cards, that is. As in not playing with a full one

Chavez RRRAAAWWWKKKSSS!

[Orsino]

125. That people are hungry is evidence that extreme capitalism needs help.

Emergency redistributions could certainly be called theft...by selfish owners and their apologists.

[7 of 11]

132. A theft is a theft just like a murder is a murder and a lie is a lie

But I agree on both your points that sometimes all those sins are necessary evils and that runaway capitalism is in no way a route to paradise. You automatically assume I'm some hard core capitalist pig but I'm not. To me a capitalist or capitalism is a poor women selling fruit at a kiosk in the village square. There is nothing wrong with that as long as there are checks and balances to make sure that someday she does not become the Wal Mart of fruit stands. To falter in that is to invite catastrophic social inequality.

Simply stated, the fact remains that Hugito did it to himself. They are in trouble for his failed policies just like we are in trouble for Chimpys failed ideas.

[papau]

8. Before Chavez the only people our CIA would allow to be politically viable were nearly fascists

[Pastiche423]

10. And how is he going to do that?

You are too funny!

[EFerrari]

11. Fyi, the food supply is still largely in the hands of the elite @ssholes

who'd just as soon see you starve if it will get them back into power.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

139. Wtf is a libertarian democrat?

:wtf:

[pokercat999]

194. Me, that's me as I define it. I believe in the individuals right

to self determination in everything with heavy regulation of corporations, industry and business. The government has no right to tell me what to do as long as I'm not infringing on another's rights (that's what courts are for) but I believe it has the DUTY to protect the individual, the population as a whole and the environment from industry and business.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

201. That's a Democrat.

Supposedly.

[pokercat999]

206. Drug war, no to casinos, no to internet gambling/poker,

NAFTA, welfare reform, don't ask/don't tell, the bankruptcy bill, continued funding of an illegal/immoral war, corporate welfare, the oil companies bill, water boarding, Guantanamo, etc, that's today's democrat

All bought and paid for by America's Elite and the Corporations they control.

[Xenotime]

110. I know chavez has done more for this country than *

[MADem]

7. What will happen if POLAR gets fed up and liquidates?

Or Chavez nationalizes them? It'll only make a bad situation worse. It sure is a mess now:

Polar, one of the country's largest private employers and best-known brands, produces and distributes grocery products including corn flour, a central element of Venezuelan cooking, and the country's most popular beer.

Business leaders say shortages of these products are caused by strict price controls, which have lagged inflation that is Latin America's highest.

Chavez is focusing on practical issues like food supply and crime after losing a December referendum that would have let him run for re-election indefinitely and expand his self-styled revolution.

He announced an increase of more than 30% in the retail price of milk in an effort to ease shortages that have created headaches for consumers of all social classes.

[northzax]

173. I am having trouble understanding

how a country that has been run by a puported populist for 8 years, and have received ever higher oil revenues every year, that has done land redistribution, and all that, could still need to 'redistribute' food. I mean besides the deliberate sabotage by the CIA and corporate media, of course.

[bean fidhleir]

178. "Business leaders say shortages of these products are caused by strict price controls"

Otherwise known their holding their goods off the market til people get desperate enough to pay the level of profit they want.

It's starting to happen here, too.

[Judi Lynn]

179. Extortion! Helpless people need an alternative. n/t

[Richard Steele]

9. Yeah, remember all those times Reagan took from the rich and gave to the poor?

Asscarrot.

[struggle4progress]

150. Isn't that why Ketchup called him a vegetable?

[DCKit]

12. Yeah, as if Reagan would ever nationalize food for poor people. Bwahahahahahaha!!! n/t

[freedomnorth]

13. Aww. How can he not support their rightful and proper ownership?

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

19. LOL! You sound just like those outraged white people

pumping their fists and shouting "Democracy!" as they installed a dictator in the RCTV studios.

The Gucci protesters. You gotta love them.

lol

Eta: The dirty secret of the opposition in Venezuela is that the elites are really pissed that colorful people can outdo them. I hope they choke on their bigotry.

[fascisthunter]

22. Funny Thing... I Know Someone from Venezuela

He's white with blonde hair and he too doesn't like Chavez. Is the wealth disparity consistent with race? Are darker skinned folks generally poor while light skinned ex europeans, the upper class?

[EFerrari]

24. The subtext of the reforms in Venezuela and in Peru

is very much about "race". And, yes, to answer your question.

[fascisthunter]

26. I Figured as Much

Once I heard him disparage Chavez, I pretty much realized he was upper-class. It really is sad... seems like a nice guy.

[EFerrari]

30. Half of my family is like that. We're from El Salvador.

You've never seen or heard so much outright racism in your life.

I guarantee you'd enjoy my cousins. They are friendly and goodlooking and smart. And, they have no idea how much they've bought in to the bs. It may be a class conflict at bottom, but it is expressed in terms of "racism".

[fascisthunter]

50. That Really Sucks

I hope that changes.... do you see things getting better, the same or worse in regards to racism and class?

[EFerrari]

54. There is a liberal tsunami moving across Latin America right now.

Mostly because BushCo has been so obsessed with the Middle East, the Pentagon isn't as close to those governments as it used to be. The people win from that "neglect".

Also remember, most cultures in Latin America incorporate the extended family. That means, community. And that's in part why socialism catches hold there so easily. It's a "natural".

Imho, the longer the US stays out of Latin America, the quicker you'll see those countries democratized.

[Pastiche423]

20. And you are uneducated

[EFerrari]

21. How big is this anti- Chavez campaign? Makes you wonder.

:shrug:

[LakeSamish706]

23. Yep, it sure makes one wonder about these folks.... If Chavez was really...

a Meany it would make sense, but he is very good to people...

[fascisthunter]

25. When I Read Anti-Chavez Posts I Am Reminded of

conservatives bashing Democrats or liberals. Not much substance to anything they say. Just lies and distortions.

[Pavulon]

36. Yep. Maybe

but you don't get sent to the gulag for posting them. No re-education.

[fascisthunter]

44. Yep. If Republicans and Corporate Fascist Wannabes Get Their Way, Maybe

nt

[EFerrari]

27. The day or so before the vote on the referendum

we had people registering here just to spread disinformation about Venezuela.

It's a measure, perhaps, of what a threat the Chavez government is to the U.S. establishment.

[Pavulon]

38. Like the sudan is a threat..

Venezuela is a petro state. They have zero influence in the US. They are irrelevant, hungry, and no other nation is currently set up to refine their tar.

We are their biggest customer.

We are the hand that feeds them..

So they can play animal farm on our dime, but at the end of the day they depend on demand for the only product they market.

The us market is around 14,000 billion dollars.

[High Plains]

129. Oil is fungible. If the US market vanishes, there will be buyers in line.

Not that Venezuela is a threat, but neither is any hypothetical US boycott of Venezuelan oil.

[fascisthunter]

45. Like the One Below?

[EFerrari]

47. Just like that. n/t

[Pastiche423]

29. Hmmm...

Check out their registration dates.

Sometimes, recycling is not a good thing, if ya know what I mean.

[EFerrari]

31. Good call. n/t

[Bacchus39]

28. wow, if Polar has to smuggle products out of the country to make a buck then Ven IS in trouble

sounds more like a set up to me. don't pick on the little guy, at least not yet, go after the big company. doesn't make alot of sense to me though.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bacchus39]

33. confiscating beer trucks is not cool

n/t

[EFerrari]

34. Excuse me. Venezuela's elections are cleaner than ours.

So, apparently, you are wrong again.

[water]

37. I'm clearly not talking about Venezuelan elections, considering this is an American politcal site...

... I threw in western Europe to show that outside of f'd up countries, those people simply don't win elections.

[EFerrari]

41. So, you mean in countries with fucked up elections, socialists don't win?

lol

You better alert Sweden!

Sorry. We know enough about Venezuela here to know how wrong you are. As a business woman who owns her own enterprise, I support Mr. Chavez and his government and the effort that they have made to bring equity to Venezuela.

[water]

52. WOW, you don't want to respond what I'm saying, do you?

Socialists clearly win elections. It happens routinely in western Europe!

Militant socialists, like Chavez and several of his supporters on this message board, do not win elections outside of f'ed up countries.

[EFerrari]

59. You're spouting a tautology.

Is Venezuela "fucked up" because Mr. Chavez is in office? The elections are clean, the economy is thriving, the people are much better off.

How fucked up is that.

Pobre.

[water]

65. The economy is not thriving...

... that's one of the reasons he didn't win the referendum, and that's one of the reasons the government had to steal food from one of the few companies still willing to sell it. :)

[EFerrari]

69. New Study Says Venezuelan Economy to Continue to Boom

New Study Says Venezuelan Economy to Continue to Boom
July 26th 2007, by Venezuelanalysis.com
Washington, DC: A new paper from the Center for Economic and Policy Research looks at the Venezuelan economy during the last eight years and finds that it does not fit the mold of an "oil boom headed for a bust," as is commonly believed.

"There's no obvious end in sight for Venezuela's current economic expansion," said economist Mark Weisbrot, Co-Director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research and co-author of the paper “The Venezuelan Economy in the Chávez Years.”

The paper notes that Venezuela's economy was wracked by political instability for the first four years of President Hugo Chávez's tenure, but has grown steadily and rapidly over the last four years, after political stability returned to the country following the oil strike of December 2002 to February 2003.

Since the bottom of that downturn in the first quarter of 2003, Venezuela's real GDP has grown by 76 percent.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2517

[water]

71. If you think that's a fair source...

... then I guess I should start citing the radical Cato Institute?

[EFerrari]

74. I think you need to learn how to read.

Cato is simply libertarian. The Center for Economic and Policy Research is non partisan and non profit.

[ronnie624]

118. Those of us who enjoy reading and learning about the world,

have seen Venezuela's tremendous economic growth reported by many different news sources.

You aren't fooling anyone here.

[northzax]

175. Nor are you, I must say

Venezuela's 'boom' is directly linked to the price of oil. Look at the data, it is the only growth sector, and it is so large it makes everything look rosy. What doesn't seem to be effective is diversification of the economy, the only source is government oil. Venezuela is a petro-state. When oil is high, the economy appears to boom, when it is low, the economy sucks. Same as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. If there was a real economic boom, companies woudkn't be smuggling food out to make a buck, they would be selling it inside the country. If there was a real boom, people would be immigrating to venezuela, not emmigrating. Sure, the top line looks good, but every other indicator sucks. (by the way, this is very similar to the US economic numbers lately, economic growth looked good on paper, but it was being sucked up by a small percentage of the population and was way too dependent on houseing prices to be really representative of the average experience)

[ronnie624]

190. Thanks for your analysis,

''Solid Foreign Relations to Underpin Strong Economic Growth in Venezuela''

The Bush administration has tried to isolate the Chavez government in order to provoke political change in Venezuela. Rather than becoming isolated from the rest of the world, the Chavez government has worked diligently to deepen its foreign commercial and diplomatic ties with many countries. Venezuela has signed numerous trade and investment deals with Russia, Iran, Syria, India and China. Venezuela has also expanded trade and investment with its neighbors in Latin America. Strengthening commercial ties with many countries have also produced much stronger diplomatic ties.

*******

China has become a major investor in Venezuela's energy sector and is also investing in the country's transportation infrastructure, including railroads, ports and crude oil tankers. Beijing and Caracas have also recently signed agreements paving the way for Chinese investment in Venezuela's telecom, mining and agricultural sectors. In return for this investment, Venezuela is directing more and more of its oil exports to China. In 2004, Venezuela exported just 12,000 barrels of oil per day to China. At the end of 2006, these exports will amount to about 200,000 barrels of oil per day.

*******

Venezuela has also buttressed its ties with India. In 2005, both countries agreed to jointly explore for heavy crude oil in India. Caracas agreed to invest in India's oil refineries and has contracted to begin supplying India with Venezuelan crude oil. India's state-owned Oil and Natural Gas Company is investing in Orinoco oil exploration and development. In Latin America, Venezuela is investing in oil refinery projects in Uruguay and Cuba. Venezuela is also undertaking significant joint petroleum-related investments with Argentina, Bolivia and Brazil. Brazil's state-owned oil company, Petrobras, is investing in Orinoco oil exploration and development.

<http://pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_report&report_id=572&language_id=1>


Stiglitz, in Venezuela, Pushes Public-Private Balance

<http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aYUzqdrconXM&refer=latin_america>


Venezuela is a country that is rich in many natural resources, and is a potential agricultural powerhouse as well.

[Judi Lynn]

191. Great links, and thanks. Love what the 2nd one says so succinctly:

Stiglitz, in Venezuela, Pushes Public-Private Balance (Update1)

By Matthew Walter

Oct. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel economics laureate visiting Venezuela, said developing nations must strike a balance between public and private control of the economy.

After meeting in the presidential palace with Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez, Stiglitz praised the South American country's success at distributing its oil income among citizens. He urged the government to ensure its economic policies are leading to sustainable growth.

``What's fundamental is to have a balance in the role of the market and the government in the economy,'' Stiglitz said at a forum on emerging markets sponsored by a local bank. ``We have to realize it's not just about setting interest rates, but also about supporting growth.''

The Nobel Prize winner said Venezuela's economic growth in recent years has been ``impressive.'' Chavez, a critic of the U.S. government and a self-described foe of capitalism, has cited Stiglitz in speeches this year warning about the U.S.'s ``irresponsible'' economic policies.
(snip/...)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm having a hard time seeing anything in either of these links which supports the drivel right-wingers have spewed concerning the Venezuelan path to a more vibrant, stronger, more useful economy.

[northzax]

204. thanks for your links

Hey, I ain't no fancy economist. But it does seem to me that an economy that has been booming for five years shouldn't need the government to confiscate food at the border to feed people. Just sayin'. Why, if people are so hungry that the government needs to confiscate food to feed them, if people are so poor that companies would rather break the law and export food to Make a profit, does venezuela keep buying weapons? Can the MiGs or submarines feed people? But hey, irrelevant.

If the venezuelan economy has really been booming for five years plus, and a leftist president has been redistributing the wealth, why is the government confiscating food? Explain the dicotomy, please.

[DuaneBidoux]

143. What else has grown recently is a 60% increase in the price of oil

Many oil based economies, including the virtually mafia like Russian economy, have done very well with the price of oil where it is at. You can get away with a lot when oil is this pricy.

The man is wrecking the economy and the country. It will come back to haunt Venezuela, unfortunately probably in the form of another far right wing dictatorship.

[AlphaCentauri]

169. I believe he is investing in social infrastructure

the next president could harvest all the benefits of it.

[northzax]

174. If the economy is thriving

why is the government putting price controls on food? Why is the government 'redistributing' food? I am sure the wealthy and wellconnected are doing fabulously, but that doesn't mean the economy is booming. Heck, the rich and well connected in the US are doing great, every leading indicator says the economy has grown every year bush has been in office, seems that a lot of people would disagree, no?

[pokercat999]

195. and Norway and Finland I think.

[AlphaCentauri]

72. That is Montaner recycled latinamerican idiot

The Book is just a failure of lies and prophesies that didn't work in the last 25 year in latin america so they came out with a new book name the return, but the true is that those who wrote the book are the recycled latin american idiots who think and adopt the RW agenda. Montaner, Llosa and others.

[Pavulon]

35. You cant blaspheme against chavez jebus..

I am hoping like the bad adverts if they are ignored they will just go away.

I guess the more equal animals get this food..

Two Simpson's references and on orwell in one post..

[fascisthunter]

48. We Love Calling You on Your BS

and making you look like the fools you are.

[Pavulon]

64. Cool

we can ship some powdered milk to the starving people down on the animal farm... And red shirts.

Just don't put me in the gulag or seize my stuff.

[fascisthunter]

78. Ja Javul..... Und Heil Hitler to You Too

Just like your type to defend the greedy fascists and pretend we are commies. Here's a hint: it isn't the 1950's anymore. The dorky red scare meme is over!

You side with those who starve folks for profit! Just think about that... sick.

PS - I'm a DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST Liberal... not one authoritarian bone in my body and I don't defend those who profit from starving folks.

[nick303]

180. A non-sequitir about Hitler?

So wait who was the fool again?

[ronnie624]

117. Your propaganda is always couched in vague language

because blatantly false statements are easily challenged.

- "gulag"
- "re-education"
- "animal farm"
- "starving people"
- "red shirts"

You may seem slick to the ignorant and those who are disinterested, but to those of us who keep up, your simplistic comments are pure foolishness.

[Judi Lynn]

39. Venezuela troops to block food smuggling to Colombia

Venezuela troops to block food smuggling to Colombia
Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:26pm GMT

CARACAS, Jan 22 (Reuters) - Venezuela has sent 1,200 troops to the border with Colombia to prevent food from being smuggled out of the country, a Venezuelan general said, the latest step in President Hugo Chavez's campaign to stem food shortages.

Gen. Luis Motta said on Tuesday said the movements were not meant to be seen as military operation against Colombia, despite continued diplomatic tension between the two countries.

"The border with Colombia has been reinforced with 1,200 National Guard troops to prevent the illegal removal of food to the neighboring country," Motta told state news agency ABN late on Monday.

Price controls, which businesses say have caused the shortage, make it profitable to buy products in Venezuela at regulated prices and resell them in Colombia.

But Chavez says increased demand on the part of the poor combined with smuggling and hoarding by unscrupulous businesses are to blame for the problem.

More:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKN2255355320080122

[struggle4progress]

151. But Venezuelans would have more food if big companies were allowed to smuggle it out of the country!

That's the magic of the Free Market!

Don't you believe in magic?

[stillcool]

40. If anyone actually wants to read..

some history of Venezuela, and about Hugo Chavez go to this site:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/
and do a search for Venezuela. Please.

[water]

42. Are you saying that seizing food is ok?

Price controls don't work, they cause shortages and fewer competitors. He is destroying their economy. How much foreign investment is there at this point? What will happen when oil prices go back down?

[Bacchus39]

43. yeah, anybody want to talk about the illegal seizure of private property by the military??

probably not.

[water]

53. It's just as wrong.

[Bacchus39]

57. yeah, I was just curious if there were any opinions on the subject of the article itself

n/t

[Tejas]

197. Nope, Fascists have spoken, Chavez is an angel n/t

[ohio2007]

158. Lincoln ordered just that in 1861 or there abouts. He suspended personal rights

in case anybody disagreed with his policies.

His grand army squatted on Robert E Lee's plantation in Arlington.Military is never ever going to leave that land if you know what I mean



Viva Abe Lincoln ;)

Hugo is on the brink of taking the same measures with his military securing and about to stockpile of food.
He only needs a general Sherman willing to march into Columbia.....south carolina ? .... ;)

[northzax]

176. wait, venezuela is in a civil war?

which provinces are waging war on which? Lincoln did this in a state of emergency (so, too did FDR) what is the nature of the dire emergency facing venezuela now? Record high oil revenues?

[ohio2007]

199. "Death to Tyrants"

that rule by decree

The inflation rate for milk is at 30% in Venezuela in case you didn't hear, Hugo order a price hike to reduce "the shortage"
LMAO
right, they "Got milk" cuz nobody can afford it ;)

Sounds like the war will be on the rich vs the poor
as Hugo's high oil revenues comes with high inflation.

You seem to be saying food should be plentiful because petro dollars are plentiful .

hmmmm
Its not. Must be the evil US behind this economic conspirecy

[northzax]

205. yes, it should be

after five years of money pouring in, and wealth redistribution (including land redistribution) if the policies work, milk should be plentiful. right? Should be. Plenty of capital around. Plenty of people working land that was previously not worked. Plenty of construction jobs. Why is inflation out of control? Why don't all the small landowners who got redistributed land have cows?

Never mind, I know why.

[EFerrari]

46. Yeah, he's destroying their economy. That's why it's grown steadily

every year since 2003.

Give it up. You have nothing but slogans.

[water]

58. It depends on how you define "grown". Our economy has "grown" as well.

When a country has routine shortages of basic goods (and food companies can't even make money on food without selling it outside of the country), it's safe to say that their economy is in destruction.

Have you looked into their exchange-rate debacle? There is a black market for currency!!

[EFerrari]

60. THERE IS A BLACK MARKET FOR CURRENCY! THAT'S HUGH!!1

The Google is your friend.

[AlphaCentauri]

88. Before and today

http://weblog.leidenuniv.nl/fdr/1948/2007/05/venezuela_in_1948_and_today.php

[NeedleCast]

160. So Has the Price of Oil

Interesting how that works, no?

The economies in oil producing countries tends to soar whenever there's a run on oil. Hugo gets no credit for that. And of course, Hugo is doing what any wanna-be dictatorship does when it gets flush with cash...buy weapons! Of course his champions will tell us that he has to buy all those AKs and weapon manufactoring plants so he can defend himself from big, bad USA.

Chavistas choose to ignore the fact that Venezual's economic boom is tied directly to or to be ignorant of it. Hugo didn't nationalize oil to help the people, he nationalized oil to make sure that the state controls the profits reaped from it's sale and how they are distributed.

[stillcool]

49. I'm saying that people ...

really need to catch up on US foreign policy vis-a-vis Venezuela, before they start buying into more crap. I'm not worried at all about the people of Venezuela, as long as the US doesn't try to bring them 'freedom'. And, nothing I read in the US Press can ever be considered accurate. I find your 'outrage' disingenuous at best.

[nick303]

182. "And, nothing I read in the US Press can ever be considered accurate"

That would suggest that you are brainwashed.

[bemildred]

51. Fuck yeah it's OK. Feeding hungry people is OK.

If the dumb shits that run these companies don't get it, they can and should be replaced.

[John Q. Citizen]

112. Got a link to your repeated asertion the economy is fucked up? Thanks.

[ronnie624]

119. Yes, seizing food is ok

if the purpose of the seizure is to prevent illegal activities, such as smuggling and manipulating prices for political reasons.

"...when oil prices go back down" :rofl:

[eridani]

126. Oil prices aren't going back down.

Or did you think China and India would stop growing?

[fascisthunter]

56. BREAKING: Spin Get's Destroyed

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009793809

[EFerrari]

61. Good catch.

lol

It is a weakness of the Chavez government that the supply chain is still in the hands of the opposition.

Let's see how they manage.

[fascisthunter]

63. And Links to Particular Suppliers

I think this needs to be exposed.

[Bacchus39]

66. I guess they can return the cargo and trucks to Polar now

sounds like the problem runs pretty deep.

[water]

62. What did he think food price controls are going to accomplish?

When you artificially lower the price of a good or service, it causes a shortage of that good or service as more people are willing to buy and fewer people are willing to sell. It's that simple.

The fact that he has to have control over everything doesn't worry any of you?

[EFerrari]

67. The fact that you've been spewing baloney is stealing all our attention.

lol

[Tejas]

198. Rationing powdered milk (of all things)

is probably also LOL to you.

[Bacchus39]

68. it certainly doesn't encourage growth in the agricultural sector does it?

n/t

[fascisthunter]

70. No... but it Worries Big Business

and so they sell to other big businesses to avoid price control. It's what greed does, even if people starve to death. People like you seem to defend that practice.

[water]

73. They can't stay afloat selling food in Venezuela...

... due to Chavez's obsession with controlling others (it's not his business the price someone chooses to buy something for), so they are forced to sell for market value somewhere else.

[fascisthunter]

75. The GREEDY ARE THE OBSESSED

[EFerrari]

76. You're getting really repetative and no more convincing.

Care to introduce a fact or two?

[water]

83. I've introduced facts, and we are talking about facts.

The only opposing facts that have been introduced have been a radical website citing the left-wing equivalent of the Cato Institute.

If there were food shortages in this country, you would all be crying "CHAOS!".

[EFerrari]

87. Venanalysis is more accurate than our media.

The study was done by a nonpartisan organization.

CATO is not right wing, it's libertarian, lol.

And your fearmongering has no basis in fact at all. You sound like every right wing reactionary I've ever met.

Good luck with that!

/typo

[water]

96. "Nonpartisian" doesn't not mean "non-left-wing".

I wasn't trying to say/imply that Cato is right-wing, I was simply saying that the research organization has a left-wing agenda, much like Cato has their own libertarian agenda.

Neither can be particularly trusted.

[EFerrari]

99. We should never trust the left wing.

We might accidently learn something!

[LanternWaste]

127. then you'll need to cite valid sources

"I was simply saying that the research organization has a left-wing agenda,"

Then you'll need to cite valid sources (i.e., not blogs or editorials) to back that statement up. Peer-reviewed studied, etc.

Unless you want us to simply take you on your word.... :shrug:

[nick303]

183. Don't expect the Chavez fish list to engage any of your arguments head on

They will probably just throw out a personal attack, or change the subject to something that is not really related to what you are talking about.

[Bonobo]

77. How DARE he not allow food companies to make a profit off starving people! nt

[water]

79. Unless you want slavery, you can't force someone to do something without incentive (profit).

[EFerrari]

81. Non sequitur. n/t

[water]

84. What kind of response is that?

Do you think you are being convincing?

[EFerrari]

89. It's Latin. The translation is "it doesn't follow".

The expression refers to logic, a topic you might want to acquaint yourself with before you set out to smear anyone again.

[water]

91. I know what it means, stop being condescending.

I also know that it doesn't apply to what I said. Perhaps you should have explained what you were getting at?

[EFerrari]

98. It certainly does apply.

To use the term "slavery" is ludicrous hyperbole.

Those poor poor billionaires are being made to take a reasonable profit for a change and their response is to sabotage the market. They will soon find out that they are not needed. Venezuela will work around them.

What you call "slavery" most people would call "democracy". What a radical idea. :wow:

[nick303]

185. While you may not agree with him,

what he said was not a non sequitur. You may want to review a bit before throwing out any pretentious terms.

[Bonobo]

85. I have no idea what that meant. Probably why Sfexpat wrote 'Non Sequitor"'

[EFerrari]

92. Because it really doesn't follow.

It's rightwing fearmongering with the usual no grounding in fact.

[water]

94. Profit is the incentive for work. If you want to make people work or do something...

... yet don't want them to profit, then your alternative is slavery. It is black and white.

[Bonobo]

100. Are you saying the need for food, shelter and human contact is insufficient

to motivate people to work?

How did those hunters and gatherers EVER drag themselves out of bed in the morning!?

:silly:

[water]

104. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply...

... their "profit" was food, our "profit" is money.

Unless you are trying to imply in a roundabout way that we should all be satisfied living hand-to-mouth...

[EFerrari]

106. For the oligarchy, that would be hand to limo.

[Bonobo]

108. I don't think we're speaking the same language. nt

[EFerrari]

105. No. You are totalizing the situation completely.

The price controls don't preclude profit, just obscene profit on the backs of poor people.

Nice try, though.

[High Plains]

130. Shouldn't you be on the Ronald Reagon Memorial Web Page...

...instead of spouting your rightist tripe here?

[conspirator]

121. water you talk like a GREEDY CORPORATE CEO

No one is against people making profit or working for a reward. The problem here the is abuse of power of businesses that grow too big and concentrate too much land. These businesses should not be allowed to decide who eats and who starves. You seem have a problem with a filthy rich family loosing a bit of their "incentive", to help others, and you claim that these rich people are being enslaved, when probably they are the ones who pay low, close to slavery, salaries to the workers in their farms.

[LanternWaste]

128. The Gospel of Greed, eh?

The Gospel of Greed, eh?

I imagine we have finally gotten to the point where greed is not simply tolerated and condoned, it's now considered the raison-d'etre of many people's word-view.

I'm sure if you apply some critical analysis to that particular statement of yours, you'll observe that history is replete with examples that fundamentally shoot it down faster than a friend of Cheney's on a canned hunt.

[nick303]

184. Don't expect anyone on the Chavez fish list to understand what you are saying.

[Judi Lynn]

Dupe. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

186. People know what he said. Most people are a little more evolved than that.

More is needed by well bred, socially responsible men and women than a profit at the great expense of the poor.

You are completely baffled if you presume to claim no one among the normals can grasp your collegue's posts. They grasped the moment they saw it. There's nothing to consider in it, that's why no one else felt the need to comment.

Coming to a message board, spending your time trying to insult the posters is an inadequate, second rate way of managing yourself.

You may have overlooked the rules: don't attack people on a personal basis. Address the subject, discuss the information or hang it up. Take a look around you: it's not done, ordinarily.

[nick303]

187. You might want to take a look in the mirror sometime

"Coming to a message board, spending your time trying to insult the posters is an inadequate, second rate way of managing yourself."

[Bacchus39]

80. why are there starving people?!!!!!

n/t

[fascisthunter]

82. Because of Greedy Businesses Linked to the Opposition

Profit before people.... don't act surprised. Greedy folks like you have been killing people for hundreds of years. Guy puts an end to making so much profit and what happens? They decide to starve folks. Nice.... who is it you defend? Big businesses and their profit margins. Sick...

[Bacchus39]

86. "guy puts an end to profit and what happens??" no more jobs and business!!!

no-one wants to go into agriculture which obviously is something a self sustaining country needs and not rely on only one industry.

[fascisthunter]

95. Psssst... You are Going Over the Edge

This was about big businesses not making as much as they used to... that's all. It's not that bad.... really.

Profit or starving people.

The rich business man or the poor

Pretty simple. And they still make money. IT'S NOT THE END OF THE WORLD or the end of their business! Stop with the hysteria... Jesus. But hey... people starve and die... no biggy, right?

[Bacchus39]

97. well, what has the government being doing, oh the last 8 years

nothing besides making paranoid rants.

p.s. yes, whites are on top of the economic food chain in latin america ever since the Spaniards arrived. Now while this is unfortunate, I am incredulous that you didn't know this.

"guy puts an end to profit and what happens?" no business, no industry. thanks, that was priceless.

[water]

90. You think it's a conscious conspiracy to starve people? You're nuts.

As I said:

When you artificially lower the price of a good or service, it causes a shortage of that good or service as more people are willing to buy and fewer people are willing to sell. It's that simple.

The reverse is also true: if you artificially raise the price of a good or service, there will be a surplus of that good or service fewer people are willing to buy and more people are willing to sell.

If you disagree with either of those statements, we can go from there.

[Bacchus39]

93. it happened in Venezuela in the 80's too, oil boom then bust and the Ven economy collapsed

just like now they were overly dependent on the oil industry and no-one was going into agriculture. just like now, most of their food was imported. I don't know if they had price controls then to exacerbate the problem.

[fascisthunter]

101. No... But I Think You are Nuts

You hold economics above all else. Not me, bub. Nobody is telling these companies to give away their product for free and go broke.

And yes... these companies are linked to the opposition, and they are doing this to protest Chavez's price controls. He even tried negotiating with them. Did his opposition not call for his assassination. You act surprised that any big business would never conspire to do such a thing...lol. Nah... you must be naive and nuts.

You live in a world of economic theory, where everything must conform even if people starve. Not me... I'm sane.

[water]

107. When you force companies to sell at near-or-below cost, they won't

It's simple, why are you trying to make this complicated? If these companies really were being malicious, then another company would come along and sell food for cheaper.

[EFerrari]

102. No. Wrong again. The oligarchy that controls pieces of the food supply

is very consciously creating shortages and running to the press with them.

The "market" doesn't occur in a political vacuum.

[water]

109. Why doesn't someone come along and sell food for cheaper?

Why do food shortages only and always occur in every country with strict price ceilings?

Why do people like you think you have the right to force others to sell at a certain price? Leave people alone, you aren't a God.

[EFerrari]

111. Has been explained to you over and over. n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

113. Speculation-fake food shortages

in latinamerica there is a phenomenon that repeat over and over again, multinationals offer to buy them their products witch are organic and of good quality for Little more than the average price, then multinationals sell them food for pigs. That's why arepas, tortillas and pupusas are so yellow 'cos they been exporting their corn and importing low quality cheaper corn from us.

[struggle4progress]

152. "make the economy scream" - Nixon's 9/15/70 directive re: Chile

according to meeting notes of CIA Director Helms
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/ch26-01.htm

Will bastards starve people to obtain and maintain power?

Unfortunately, some will

[nolabels]

114. Sounds like a good move to me

Use the military to secure foodstuffs to keep your population from going broke to buy food or starving. What the good is a military if it can't be used to protect the public?

[bemildred]

116. Yep, the government has a duty to see that people have food and housing.

Good for Chavez for stepping up instead of ignoring the problem.

[Judi Lynn]

120. Venezuela troops crack down on smuggling

Venezuela troops crack down on smuggling
(Agencies)
Updated: 2008-01-24 10:08


CARACAS, Venezuela -- Venezuelan troops are cracking down on the smuggling of food and gasoline along the border with Colombia, seizing truckloads of contraband amid a bitter feud between the two countries' governments.

Tightening security since the weekend, the National Guard has seized about 750 tons of food and 9,000 gallons of fuel, Gen. Gabriel Oviedo said Tuesday.

The National Guard has reassigned 1,200 troops to anti-smuggling work along the border after President Hugo Chavez ordered the military on Sunday to keep people from smuggling across scarce, price-controlled items like milk.

Most of those troops were already in the border region carrying out other tasks previously, Oviedo told The Associated Press by telephone. About 100 troops arrived from Caracas to support the contingent, he said.

The food shipments seized included milk, rice, sugar and other products, Oviedo said.

More:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2008-01/24/content_6417982.htm

[Peace Patriot]

122. "The Smart Way to Beat Tyrants Like Chávez," by Donald Rumsfeld, 12/1/07

"The Smart Way to Beat Tyrants Like Chávez," by Donald Rumsfeld, 12/1/07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/30/AR2007113001800.html

He proposes economic warfare against Venezuela and others, and hints at U.S. military intervention (--wants to get rid of any remaining "checks and balances" in our own government, so the U.S. can "act swiftly" in support of "friends and allies" in South America.) (Note: Rumsfeld and Bushites have no "friends and allies" in South America, except the fascists and union leader killers in Colombia, the corrupt "free traders" in Peru, and the local fascist minorities, particularly in oil/gas rich Venezuela, Ecuador and Bolivia. Bolivia will probably be the first target - in Rumsfeld's Oil War II).

He doesn't mention hoarding food and driving up prices, as a means of destabilization, but you can be sure it's in his new "PNAC: South America" handbook (avid reading among the Gucci crowd in Venezuela).

Venezuela has an historic problem of being unable to feed itself, from decades of mismanagement, malfeasance, greed, and insane land policy by the previous rightwing and fascist governments. Small peasant farmers - who can feed their families, local communities and the country - have been driven off the land by rich and often absentee and foreign investors/owners - and into urban squalor, where they can neither feed their families nor anyone else. This problem cannot be solved easily or quickly - but, unlike previous governments - the Chavez government is addressing it with land reform policy and various enticements to keep small farmers on the land or lure them back to the land, before their food production knowledge and skills are lost. Vast areas of food production land are simply sitting fallow - not used for anything; no one lives there; and often title to the land cannot even be established. The Chavez government is confiscating this kind of land (no clear title), and buying up other fallow ag lands, to try to restore Venezuela's food self-sufficiency.

It takes time. The Chavez government is meanwhile trying to address another kind of rightwing malfeasance - utter neglect of Venezuela's manufacturing capability and infrastructure. For instance - due to years of U.S. domination (Exxon Mobile et al), Venezuela has to IMPORT the machine parts that it needs for its oil industry. Chavez is correcting these rotten policies - by helping local entrepreneurs to CREATE JOBS IN VENEZUELA--for instance, opening a new factory to manufacture oil industry machine parts LOCALLY.

You know, I was just astounded when I learned that - that Venezuela has to IMPORT parts for production of its major EXPORT--oil. It reminds me of what is happening HERE, in the U.S. Or rather, what is NOT happening here. Example: ES&S manufactures the voting machines that it sells to our election officials in sweatshops in the Philippines! We could all cite our favorite examples. That's mine. We can't even create jobs here to supply the voting machines that steal our elections!

Someone upthread said, who's been in charge in Venezuela? - implying that food shortages and other problems are Chavez's fault. He's been president since 1998--a decade. True enough. But, a) you don't rebuild a broken ag industry in one decade - which took a century of greed to destroy, and b) the U.S./Bush and global corporate predators have been trying their best, for the better part of that decade, to DESTROY the Chavez government, and, indeed, to destroy democracy itself, in Venezuela, with one destabilization plot after another (the 2002 U.S.-backed rightwing military coup attempt; the crippling oil professionals' strike; the U.S.-funded recall election, etc.)

Venezuela has similar problems to every third world country, where fascist looting, mismanagement and brutality, followed by global corporate predator "free trade" and World Bank loan sharks, have created BASKETCASE economies with vast populations of mostly poor, displaced indigenous farmers, now living in urban shantytowns. To blame the Chavez government, which is actively trying to do something about all this, is unbelievably callous, not to mention short-sighted. And to NOT understand how vicious the Bushites and their corporate puppetmasters are, as to PREVENTING any remedy, and destabilizing and destroying democratic government - so that they can loot these countries of their natural resources, and enslave their people--is unbelievably - and I have to say, deliberately--blind.

The predatory capitalism that our global corporations have created, operating from our shores - with its myths about "the free market" and its bald-faced lies about what "freedom" is--is going to bite us, you know. And it's going to bite us hard. The U.S. is fast becoming the world's biggest "banana republic." And these ugly, spiteful (and very pointed) disinformation campaigns, and godawful greedy "wars," that are being conducted with our tax dollars, in our name, are going to haunt us for decades, and possibly for centuries, as we ourselves try to restore democracy and social justice here.

The manipulated food shortages in Venezuela are VERY SIMILAR to the manipulated gas shortages of the 1970s, that brought Reagan to power--the beginning of the end of the U.S. middle class and U.S. democracy. When you let "organized money" - as FDR called it - combine into monopolies, and dictate the availability and price of essential commodities, you have neither a truly "free market" nor a viable society. That is when the government must - and has every right to - intervene on behalf of the VICTIMS, and for the good of society. And any government that truly represents majority rule will do so. You cannot have a viable society with corporate monopolies, hoarding and price gouging of essential items like food and gas.

And here's why Venezuela has a government that understands its responsibilities and represents the interests of its people--and why we do not have such a government. In Venezuela, they have electronic voting, but it is an OPEN SOURCE CODE system (anyone may review the code by which the votes are tabulated), and they handcount a whopping 55% of the votes, as a check on machine fraud. Here - in a fascist coup supported by our own party leadership - we have a 'TRADE SECRET' CODE electronic voting system, with the secret code owned and controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations, and with virtually no audit/recount controls. Many states have a ZERO handcount of the votes to check for fraud - ZERO! - with some states conducting a miserably inadequate 1% audit.

This is something else that Donald Rumsfeld and the corporate news monopolies - and their echoers here at DU--do not want you and I to know: Venezuela has transparent elections, and a vibrant, lively democracy, with a government that is actively trying to solve global corporate predator-created problems. And we are suffering a fascist coup in which El Stupido has been been imposed as our ruler, with a feckless, 'Vichy' Congress full of "Blue Dog" Democrats (who want to cut everything in the budget except the massive war funding).

55% handcount (five times the 5% to 10% minimum needed to detect fraud), vs. 0% to 1% handcount (with recounts that are expensive and difficult to get, and which ordinary people have to pay for! --while Diebold/ES&S and co. rake in billions of tax payer dollars for their insecure and insider riggable electronic voting machines!).

Transparent vote counting is the difference between a good government and a bad government.

Get real! Get practical! Get strategic! Look at power and where it comes from. We want a government that acts in our interest, and that supports democracy and social justice around the world, instead of trying in every way to destroy them? Work to restore transparent vote counting here!

[bemildred]

123. Dumbsfeldt talking about how to be smart is very funny.

The worst SecDef ever.

[Peace Patriot]

131. Rumsfeld wants "free market" savagery for South America, and if they won't

bend over for that - and, by God, they are not! they are rebelling! - then he will unleash the "unitary executive" upon them, for "swift action" in support of Rumsfeld's "friends and allies" (fascist coup plotters) - and torture and kill thousands, as he and his cabal have done in Iraq, and as has been done in the past by the U.S. (especially by the Reagan mafia) and its "friends and allies" in South and Central America.

But please don't be fooled that Rumsfeld has "retired." For one thing, he no doubt controls billions of U.S. tax dollars stolen from us in Iraq, and has created private armies with our tax dollars (Blackwater, CACCI, et al). (--in fact Blackwater has training camps, and has been recruiting for Iraq, in Colombia!). Further, the disaster he created in Iraq, and his failure to get the oil pumping, and his failure to convince anyone that bombing Iran is a good idea, and his malevolence on many fronts (in my opinion, including 9/11), spur him on. I'm as sure as I can be that he has "Oil War II: South America" all planned out, and feels some urgency to get it started while Bush is still in office. I also suspect that his and other Bush Junta operatives' continued immunity from prosecution for war crimes may depend on their regaining some ground for Occidental Petroleum, Exxon Mobile, the World Bank/IMF and other bad actors in South America - where many new leftist (majorityist) governments have been elected over the last half decade (in Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Chile and Nicaragua - and likely Paraguay this year)--a 'blue' sweep of nearly the whole continent - and where Bolivarian ideas such as independence and self-determination are greatly succeeding (--local control of local resources, use of a country's resources to benefit the people who live there, especially the poor, and regionally-controlled finance, trade and infrastructure development - as opposed to first world banks and corporations ripping everybody off).

The Bush Junta has "lost" South America, as a place where the first world can easily bully the third world - and as a place where they can easily steal resources and impose slave labor conditions. Sentiment in South America is hugely supportive of Hugo Chavez, Venezuela and the Bolivarians, and their forward-looking initiatives, and is strongly opposed to the Bushites and U.S./global corporate predator domination. It's so bad for the Bushites that even tiny leftist setbacks in this overwhelmingly leftist trend - like Chavez losing the recent vote on the constitutional changes (50.7% to 49.3%) - makes them pee in their pants for glee. I've seen it here among the Chavez-bashers at DU. (And never do they mention that Chavez puts constitutional amendments to a VOTE OF THE PEOPLE, and abides by their decision - they have hardly skipped a beat between calling Chavez a "dictator" and calling his socialist revolution "dead" because he lost one vote - very narrowly!)

Rumsfeld also jumped the gun on the FARC hostages that Chavez was trying to get released. He said that Chavez's negotiation with FARC was "not welcome" in Colombia. That was true for a weekend (the weekend of his op-ed), but the Colombian government quickly reverted to its ORIGINAL welcome of the Chavez effort, a day later, when the hostages' families and others, like the president of France, begged Chavez to keep trying, and put pressure on the Uribe government (Bush/Rumsfeld pals). And soon Chavez succeeded - with the release of two hostages a week ago - in spite of every effort by the Bushites (including Rumsfeld) to sabotage those negotiations.

The Rumsfeldians and Bushites, and their "friends and allies" in South America (violent fascist minorities) are that desperate for little P.R. victories - that they would endanger hostages' lives. And it's because they're losing, big time. And I think that an attempt by them to reverse this leftist trend - quite possibly with direct U.S. military intervention - will be the hallmark of Bush's last year, and is being required by their corporate puppetmasters, for whom it is simply intolerable that the people of South America are, at last, taking control of their own resources, economies and destiny. Rumsfeld and the Bushites will lose this second oil war, but when did that ever stop NeoCons? And they don't consider Iraq a loss at all--they are still profiting tidily from all that war booty. It doesn't bother them at all that they slaughtered 1.2 million people for it. Nor will it bother them in the least to spill blood, and create possibly great suffering, in South America, perhaps to gain some extra foothold (say in a split-off, fascist controlled part of Bolivia - where the oil/gas reserves are - a project they've been working on).

This is the thing we have to understand about Rumsfeld - he thrives on chaos - and if it doesn't net any oil for his corporate buds, it doesn't matter to him. He's looting our treasury of billions and billions of dollars (useful for many different kinds of global corporate predator games). And he has not finished doing so.

[patch1234]

124. how much does rice cost?, in Venezuela n/t

[Bo]

133. Another "Viva La Revolucion" moment from the Idiot Chavez

Food Shortages for the first time in history in Venezuela...incredible

[Judi Lynn]

134. Maybe you'd be kind enough to provide some supporting information for your claim

there have been no other food shortages in Venezuela. You'd surely be doing everyone here a solid favor, as everyone needs to know the truth. I'm sure you spend a lot of time looking for answers, just as so many DU'ers actually do.

In the meantime, I'd like to share a very pertinent post by an outstanding DU'er who actually DOES know what he's talking about (or he ALWAYS looks for the answer rather than attempting to spread disinformation) from an earlier thread:

ronnie624 (919 posts)________________________________________________________________________ Tue Nov-13-07 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #105
190. Here is another view of the food shortages in Venezuela:

VHeadline commentarist Oscar Heck writes: Just so people know what is really going on in Venezuela when it comes to scarcity of basic food products on market shelves. I am familiar with how this works because I started a small grocery store in Venezuela, one which still operates and one in which I am still involved when problems or difficulties occur. I set up its operations, its profit margins and the purchasing structure as well.

Typically, in Venezuela, and this dates from years before Chavez came into power, hoarding of basic foodstuff is a tactic used by the food mafias and monopolies to dramatically increase profits, especially in the weeks prior to Christmas.

This also applies to some non-food items, such as hardware. What typically happens is that food starts to become of short supply at the consumer end ... things begin to slowly trickle off the shelves until there is "no more" (which is usually not true). The effect is that people begin to be forced into paying much higher prices for the items (usually items of basic necessity such as chicken, meat, baby formula, flour, milk and sugar) on the "black market."

*******

With little doubt, there is also another reason why these crooks hoard basic foodstuff.... like they did in 2002 and 2003 and as they are perhaps doing now. They do it in order to cause problems so that the Chavez government can then be blamed. Almost all major producers, distributors and bigger retailers of basic foodstuff are vilely anti-Chavez ... and highly corrupt, as is intimated by the practice of hoarding.

Although it is "normal" for hoarding of food to start happening near the end of October and beginning of November ... and sometimes into late January ... it appears that the issue of the proposed Constitutional Reform, which almost all anti-Chavez people are "on principle" against, is having a strong influence on the hoarding of basic foodstuff this year ... making it perhaps worse than in other years (excluding perhaps December 2002-February 2003).

But wait ... why would these crooks be upset with Chavez, trying to cause him problems? Maybe it is because they don't want the proposed changes to Article 113 to become law? Article 113 will make monopolies illegal, thus making hoarding more difficult.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=76795

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3062855&mesg_id=3064146

(my highlighting of DU'er ronnie624's material)

[ohio2007]

136. Venezuela Imports 74,000 Tons Of Food To Avert Crisis

Caracas, Venezuela (AHN) - To avert a food crisis facing Venezuela, the Latin American nation imported 74,000 tons of food items. The state is tapping the government-owned oil corporation Petroleos de Venezuela to oversee the distribution of the food import across Venezuela.
snip

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3153605&mesg_id=3153605

How does a big nationally owned oil company know the superior and proper way to distribute food ?
Points along its own pipelines ? The oil infrastructure must be maintained at any cost and now that the foreigners have been kicked out,the national oil corp will need to keep as many workers happy and fed as possible.


hmmmmm

and if oil production breakdowns happen........Hugo can claim foreign saboteurs were behind it, up to no good.

[Bacchus39]

138. a monkey could be in charge of Ven. and the oil revenue would continue to pour in

as opposed to the clown in charge now. however, you (meaning Hugo) can't really complain about food shortages when your policies have contributed to them. or at best, you haven't invested in agriculture and other industries during your 10 year reign. in the 1970s the oil revenue poured into Ven as well. the Caracas subway, the telefericos, and other infrastructure projects were constructed during this time. Oil crashed in the 1980s and Venezuela hit hard times. yet all the while, Ven. was importing the majority of their food just like now. nothing has changed.

fortunately for Ven, there appears to be no threat of an oil crash but their food supply problem still persists.

[AlphaCentauri]

144. guess someone here could read spanish

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=especulacion+canasta+basica

[Judi Lynn]

146. This looks interesting. I have to leave, will look for your post as soon as possible.

I'm sure I can take those articles over to google translation. I'm interested in seeing what's going on there! Thanks.

[AlphaCentauri]

149. you'll see how..

many latin american countries are dealing with the same problem.

[Judi Lynn]

157. I'm saving this page you linked for future reference. Jeez!

Right away, clicking on the google translations I saw the following from the 2nd link, on Panama from last summer:

Panama, Friday June 22, 2007

Onagro toma acciones contra la especulación Onagro takes actions against speculation
En San Miguelito se comercializarán mañana alimentos de la canasta básica a precios bajos. In San Miguelito will be marketed morning of the food basket at low prices.

En los próximos sábados, se realizarán actividades similares en otras provincias del país. In the coming Saturday, will be carried out similar activities in other provinces.

LA PRENSA/David Mesa THE PRESS / David Bureau

Enrique Athanasiadis 869405 Enrique Athanasiadis 869405
Flor Bocharel Flower Bocharel
Especial para La Prensa Special to The Press
[e-mail] [e-mail]

POTRERILLOS, Chiriquí.- Productos de la canasta básica familiar serán comercializados a precios bajos mañana sábado en San Miguelito, provincia de Panamá, acción que según directivos de la Organización Nacional Agropecuaria (Onagro) se hace para combatir la acción especuladora de los intermediarios que actúan entre el agricultor y el consumidor. POTRERILLOS, Chiriquí .- Products of the basic family basket will be sold at low prices tomorrow, Saturday in San Miguelito, the province of Panama, that action as directors of the National Agricultural Organization (Onagro) is done to combat action especuladora of intermediaries acting between the farmer and the consumer.

Entre los productos que se venderán desde las 6:00 am en los estacionamientos del Centro Comercial El Milagro están: leche, pollo, gallina, queso blanco, jugos naturales, huevos, salchichas, arroz de primera, elaborados por las empresas de la familia Athanasiadis. Among the products that will be sold from 6:00 am in the parking lots of Centro Comercial El Milagro are: milk, chicken, chicken, white cheese, natural juices, eggs, sausage, rice, first developed by companies of the family Athanasiadis .

Enrique Athanasiadis, presidente de Onagro, comentó que el precio de la canasta básica familiar está aumentando en forma exagerada, que el intermediario se gana el 20% de la venta de esos productos y que por ello han tomado esta iniciativa, "para abaratar los altos costos de los alimentos". Enrique Athanasiadis, Onagro president said that the price of basic family basket is increasing in an exaggerated, that the intermediary is earning 20% of the sales of these products and therefore have taken this initiative, "to reduce high cost of food. "

Alexis Soto, asesor financiero de Onagro, dijo que el consumidor está pagando 70 centésimos por el litro de leche, cuando el intermediario puede vender el producto al distribuidor final a un estimado de 50 centésimos. Alexis Soto, financial adviser to Onagro said that the consumer is paying 70 hundredths per liter of milk, if the broker can sell the product to the distributor to end an estimated 50 hundredths.

More:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://mensual.prensa.com/mensual/contenido/2007/06/22/hoy/negocios/1024072.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Despeculacion%2Bcanasta%2Bbasica%26hl%3Den

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Third link, from Mexico, from January 17, 2008:

Published 01-17-2008
Notimex
MEXICO, DF (NTX) .- Members of the Confederation of Mexican Workers (CTM) called heavy hand of the Ministry of Economy and the Federal Consumer (Profeco) against abuse of merchants sell their products with price increases . Juan Carlos Perez Velasco and Patricio Flores Sandoval, MWC, sued prison speculators because only in that way can stop the abuse for the purpose of personal enrichment "at the expense of the poverty of the population."

In an interview insisted that the increase of two cents to the price of petrol is not sufficient reason to raise disproportionately prices of basic foodstuffs.

Representatives cetemistas indicated that the speculation has caused the price of the market basket increase and therefore, urgent actions stronger federal authorities and even state to stop these abuses.

Flores Sandoval, who is also coordinator of the county council worker in the Legislative Palace of San Lazaro, said that MWC will act responsibly and will await the reaction of the federal authorities to solve this problem.

More:http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.gentedeminnesota.com/news.php%3Fnid%3D8955&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=3&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Despeculacion%2Bcanasta%2Bbasica%26hl%3Den

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm seeing the pattern as it unfolds, AlphaCentauri. Right after these links, from your shared google search, was Ecuador, Honduras, El Salvador, all saying the SAME!

Paul Balcáceres
El Diario de Hoy
[e-mail]



(google translation of caption:
December 18, $ 28.87
on January 5, $ 37.55
Restricting the sale of sugar in bulk, and its replacement by packing bags-led to a de facto increase in the sale of wholesale quintal of that article.)

The prices of basic grains were fired new year with respect to the last week of December.

A survey "emergency" conducted by the Bureau of Consumer Protection (DPC) indicated that sugar has risen by 31%, beans jumped from 16% to 13% of corn, compared with the previous month.

"It was our first working week of the year and we have received complaints about increases in the basic basket of goods. We want to ensure that people do not speculate with prices taking advantage of the increase taking other items that have nothing to do, such as alcoholic beverages and cigarettes, as a result of tax reforms and Fosalud "said yesterday the owner of the DPC, Mario Cruz.

The wholesale value of red beans silk reached $ 44.55 per quintal in San Salvador on November 5, the date of the poll. The Directorate had reported a total of $ 35.38 during its latest survey on 18 December.

"We understand that this increase is due to speculation. We have no shortage of beans, there is enough in the market, "said Cruz.

The investigation of the entity confirmed that the value of sugar has increased by a rate of 31%. While in December was placed at $ 28.87 during the New Year quintal has reacomodado at $ 37.55.

More:
http://www.elsalvador.com/noticias/2005/01/08/nacional/nac20.asp

More, from Guatemala, Panama, and Honduras, again. In this article, this country which doesn't get savaged by the U.S. right-wing,
it's clear to see the public sentiment runs deeply against the food speculators:Government should imprison speculators
Hide grain of the basic food basket is a crime

By: Drafting ([e-mail])

Tegucigalpa. The government of President Manuel Zelaya has maintained a tolerant attitude to the speculation and abuse on the part of coyotes, which have the luxury of hiding beans before the eyes of the authorities.

The president of the National Party and presidential candidate, Porfirio Lobo Sosa, said the government must punish and imprisoned who are preying on the domestic economy, particularly among poor families.

"It is forbidden to speculate, hide the basic basket of goods, this is a matter of emergency," said the leader of opposition. "It is an offence to improperly increase prices by making use of monopolistic practices. We need to review the holds and if there is hidden beans also this is a crime that must be fought ", he demanded.

If the government gets to the prison a few speculators will be contributing to the failure to re-generate acaparamientos of basic grains. The private company has expressed its dissatisfaction with the decree of the National Congress that froze some prices for the basic food basket.http://www.elheraldo.hn/nota.php?nid=87921&sec=12&fecha=2007-11-19

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
By contributing this page, and suggesting those of us who can't speak English get a translator, like google
translation for Spanish to English, and check it out for ourselves, you've made it possible for those of us who hope to
LEARN about what is going on to get a far, far better picture which informs anyone who's even paying attention that this
situation is going on all over the Americas, not only Venezuela. The people themselves in these countries are crying out for
price controls by the governments.

I would invite the DU posters who are driven as if by the hounds of hell to infest every D.U. thread concerning the movement
in Latin America away from U.S. bullying, and meddling, to break down, unhunch themselves from their keyboards, and start reading
these articles, for their own education's sake, in order to carry on an adult-level conversation with DU'ers.

[AlphaCentauri]

161. There is a lot missinformation about latin america

The food shortages is due to speculation in latin america and false rumors. Around the world is becoming a trend and nobody wants to tal about Afghanistan.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23066930-661,00.html

"The world could run dramatically short of food if we don't attend to the issues that are now emerging - the shortage of water, the lack of arable land, the waste of nutrients and the lack of agricultural research worldwide," Associate Professor Julian Cribb, of Sydney's University of Technology, said.

One of the main issues affecting worldwide food supplies was the increasing wealth in populous countries such as China and India.

"As countries emerge from very low levels of income... the rate of consumption of animal protein rise quite rapidly," Mike Keogh of the Australian Farm Institute said .

This dramatically increased the worldwide demand for grain, needed to produce meat and dairy products. Grain was already in shorter supply due to the production of biofuels such as ethanol and biodiesel, particularly in the northern hemisphere.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-01/14/content_7421545.htm

UN official: 1.3 million Afghans at risk of food shortage
KABUL, Jan. 14 (Xinhua) -- More than one million people have been suffering from food shortage and price hike in the war-ravaged Afghanistan, the UN food agency said Monday.

"As many as 1.3 million Afghans, who before were considered borderline at risk of food security, now because of the large price increase, may have been push into high-risk food insecurity," Rick Corsino, head of World Food Program (WFP) Afghan mission, warned at a press conference.

He said these ill-fated people are confined in rural areas of the country.

[northzax]

177. black markets!

you do know when black markets happen, right? When people can sell their goods for more profit illegally than they can legally. When the risk premium of illegal behavior is high enough, black markets happen. Take a look at the US, what are there black markets for? Basically stolen goods and those that are illegal to sell openly and some used goods that avoid sales taxes and the like. This is because there are no serious price controls or tariffs. The risk I take selling you something like food illegally isn't covered by the potential extra profit I would make selling to you off the books. There is also a black market for manual labor, the risk I take hiring a worker without the right papers is worth it to many employers, the odds of getting caught are low, and the potential punishment is small. So why is there no blackmarket for food on the US? Bsically because the prices charged at safeway reflect the price the market will bear. Let's take a loaf of bread. (numbers are made up) right now, that loaf costs three dollars. If safeway thinks that I, and enough other people, will pay four dollars, they will raise the price, right?now the government tells safeway it can only charge $2.50 for that loaf. But they know the real price, the price the market will bear, is four bucks. Why wouldn't they sell it to me for a price closer to four bucks?

Or let's look at labor. Your labor. You mow lawns for a living. You charge fifty bucks to mow a lawn. The town passes an ordinance saying you cannot charge more than forty. Somebody offers you 45 to move to the front of the line, do you take it?

[ohio2007]

135. an army marches on its stomach

Chavez: Colombia Planning 'Aggression'
snip
Chavez did not offer evidence to support his claim. He has repeatedly accused the United States of plotting to oust him or kill him, though it was the first time he has accused Colombia's U.S.-allied government in such strident terms.

"I accuse the government of Colombia of devising a conspiracy, acting as a pawn of the U.S. empire, of devising a military provocation against Venezuela," Chavez said.
snip


"A military aggression against Venezuela is being prepared" by Colombia, Chavez said. He warned Colombia not to attempt "a provocation against Venezuela" and said his country would cut off all oil exports in the event of a military strike from the neighboring country.

Chavez did not offer evidence to support his claim.

snip
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/25/ap/latinamerica/main3754184.shtml

Yes;
Another "Viva La Revolucion" moment from the Idiot Chavez

No wonder he refuses to take a drug test ;)

..but then again, it's probably just the right wing media out to make him look like a benevolent dictator.

Anyway, such outbursts like those are not meant for the print media.
/sarc

[Judi Lynn]

137. Are you saying you grasp the relationship between Colombia and Venezuela?

Please explain more about your belief this could not be possible. You can be sure it would be an education for DU'ers.

On edit, I'm posting your comments again, just in case you remove them from your post:

Yes;
Another "Viva La Revolucion" moment from the Idiot Chavez

No wonder he refuses to take a drug test

..but then again, it's probably just the right wing media out to make him look like a benevolent dictator.

Anyway, such outbursts like those are not meant for the print media.

I have to get back to my evening, will look back in later to see your answer. Looking forward to finding out what you have to offer, since you have such a firm fix on the situation.

[Judi Lynn]

141. Maybe I can help you with your take on Colombian/Venezuelan relations.

The Venezuelan elite imports soldiers
by Marta Harnecker
May 23, 2004

~snip~
Since 'the conspiracies against Venezuela do not end with the capture of mercenaries in Caracas,' there must be many other infiltrators in other areas of the country; since this is not an isolated action, but one whose efforts to stop the process continue, one can reach but only one conclusion: it is necessary to prepare oneself for self-defense. This is why the President considered it opportune to take advantage of the occasion and to announce three strategic lines for defending the country. The most radical proposal was a call for the population to massively participate in the defense of the nation.

A week earlier, on the 9th of May, on the outskirts of Caracas, a paramilitary force was discovered, dressed in field uniforms. Later, more were found, raising the total to 130, leaving open the possibility that there are still more in the country. The three Colombian paramilitary leaders of the group are members of the Autonomous Self-Defense Forces (AUC) in Northern Santander state in Colombia.

Some of the captured Colombian fighters have a long history as members of paramilitary forces. Others are reservists of the Colombian army and yet others were specifically recruited for the task in Venezuela and were surely tricked. Among these there are several who are minors.

A colonel of the Venezuelan air force was also detained, as well as seven officers of the National Guard. Among those implicated in the plot is a group of civilians headed by the Cuban Roberto Alonso, creator of the 'guarimbas,'<1> and Gustavo Quintero Machado, a Venezuelan, both who are currently wanted by the Venezuelan justice system.

What the real objectives were is now being discussed. One of them could have been to steal weapons so as to then attack the Miraflores presidential palace and President Chavez himself.

The government denounced the existence of an international plot in which the governments of the United States and of Colombian would be involved. U.S. Ambassador Shapiro denied that his country had any participation in the incident. And the Colombian president, for his part, solidarized himself with the Venezuelan government, affirming that he supports its actions against the members of the irregular Colombian military group, which then caused Chavez to publicly announce that he was convinced that President Alvaro Uribe did not have anything to do with the plot, even though he insisted on leveling charges against a Colombian general by the name of Carreño.

Even though the oppositional media conducted a big campaign to minimize the issue, trying to accuse the government of having organized a montage, so as to have a pretext for taking forceful measures that would impede a confrontation at the voting booth, every day more evidence surfaces that confirm the official version.

The Colombian attorney general's office has evidence that proves that paramilitary fighters were recruited and then transported to Venezuela and that extreme right-wing groups infiltrated intelligence services in the border town of Cúcuta. The proof was shown on the news program 'The Independent Network.' The program broadcast some intercepted recordings of paramilitary soldiers in Cúcuta, in which the operations they carried out in Venezuelan territory are reviewed.
(snip)

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5579

By the way, the recently removed head of Uribe's national security department has ADMITTED recently he knew of this. It was discussed fully here, over and over.



Colombian paramilitaries captured at a ranch owned by Cuban right-wing “exile” Roberto Alonso

January 25, 2005

The Granda Kidnapping Explodes
The US / Colombia Plot Against Venezuela
By JAMES PETRAS

A major diplomatic and political conflict has exploded between Colombia and Venezuela after the revelation of a Colombian government covert operation in Venezuela, involving the recruitment of Venezuelan military and security officers in the kidnapping of a Colombian leftist leader. Following an investigation by the Venezuelan Ministry of Interior and reports and testimony from journalists and other knowledgeable political observers it was determined that the highest echelons of the Colombian government, including President Uribe, planned and executed this onslaught on Venezuelan sovereignty.

Once direct Colombian involvement was established, the Venezuelan government demanded a public apology from the Colombian government while seeking a diplomatic solution by blaming Colombian Presidential advisers. The Colombian regime took the offensive, launching an aggressive defense of its involvement in the violation of Venezuelan sovereignty and, beyond that, seeking to establish in advance, under the rationale of "national security" the legitimacy of future acts of aggression. As a result President Chavez has recalled the Venezuelan Ambassador from Bogota, suspended all state-to-state commercial and political agreements pending an official state apology. In response the US Government gave unconditional support to Colombian violation of Venezuelan sovereignty and urged the Uribe regime to push the conflict further. What began as a diplomatic conflict over a specific incident has turned into a major, defining crises in US and Latin American political relations with potentially explosive military, economic and political consequences for the entire region.

In justifying the kidnapping of Rodrigo Granda, the Colombian leftist leader, the Uribe regime has promulgated a new foreign policy doctrine which echoes that of the Bush Administration: the right of unilateral intervention in any country in which the Colombian government perceives or claims is harboring or providing refuge to political adversaries (which the regime labels as "terrorists") which might threaten the security of the state. The Uribe doctrine of unilateral intervention echoes the preventive war speech, enunciated in late 2001 by President Bush. Clearly Uribe's action and pronouncement is profoundly influenced by the dominance that Washington exercises over the Uribe regime's policies through its extended $3 billion dollar military aid program and deep penetration of the entire political-defense apparatus.

Uribe's offensive military doctrine involves several major policy propositions:

1.) The right to violate any country's sovereignty, including the use of force and violence, directly or in cooperation with local mercenaries.

2.) The right to recruit and subvert military and security officials to serve the interests of the Colombian state.

3.) The right to allocate funds to bounty hunters or "third parties" to engage in illegal violent acts within a target country.

4.) The assertion of the supremacy of Colombian laws, decrees and policies over and against the sovereign laws of the intervened country
(snip)

http://www.counterpunch.org/petras01252005.html

More captured Colombian paramilitaries

Published on Monday, May 17,
by the Agence France Presse
Thousands Protest Colombian Paramilitary Presence in Venezuela
Chavez to Set up 'People's Militia'

President Hugo Chavez announced his government would establish "people's militias" to counter what he called foreign interference after an alleged coup plot by Colombian paramilitaries Caracas claims was financed by Washington.

Chavez also said he would boost the strength of Venezuela's armed forces as part of a new "anti-imperialist" phase for his government.

"Each and every Venezuelan man and woman must consider themselves a soldier," said Chavez.

"Let the organization of a popular and military orientation begin from today."

The president's announcement came a week after authorities arrested 88 people described as Colombian paramilitaries holed up on property belonging to a key opposition figure.
(snip/...)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0517-04.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

12.30pm update

Colombian paramilitaries arrested in Venezuela

Jeremy Lennard and agencies
Monday May 10, 2004

Venezuelan police have arrested more than 70 Colombian paramilitary fighters who were allegedly plotting to strike against the government in Caracas, according to the country's president, Hugo Chávez.
Opposition leaders, however, were quick to dismiss the president's claim, calling the raids on a farm less than 10 miles from the capital a ruse to divert attention from their efforts to oust Mr Chávez in a recall vote.

During his weekly radio and TV broadcast, Hello Mr President, Mr Chávez said that 53 paramilitary fighters were arrested at the farm early on Sunday and another 24 were picked up after fleeing into the countryside.
The country's security forces were uncovering additional clues and searching for more suspects, he said, adding that the arrests were proof of a conspiracy against his government involving Cuban and Venezuelan exiles in Florida and neighbouring Colombia.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,1213445,00.html



More captured Colombian paramilitaries

Three Venezuelan Officers and 27 Colombians Sentenced for Assassination Plot
A Venezuelan military court sentenced three Venezuelan military officers and 27 Colombians to two to nine years of prison for plotting an assault on Venezuela’s presidential palace and the assassination of President Hugo Chavez.Another 73 Colombians and 3 Venezuelan officers, who had also been suspected of participating in the plot, were freed after spending 17 months in prison.

118 Colombians were captured in May 2004 on a ranch just outside of Caracas, wearing Venezuelan military fatigues. Many of them appeared to be Colombian paramilitary fighters who had been recruited for a mission in Venezuela to attack the Chavez government and to kill the president. Six Venezuelan officers were also arrested in the course of the investigation.
Some of the Colombians were peasants who had been lured to come to Venezuela with the promise of jobs. Upon arriving, though, they were forced to engage in paramilitary training exercises and were forbidden to leave the ranch. 18 of the Colombians were released immediately after the capture and returned to Colombia because they were minors between 15 and 17 years. The ranch belongs to Roberto Alonso, a prominent Cuban-Venezuelan opposition activist. The highest level officer to be sentenced was General Ovidio Poggioli, who had been charged with military rebellion and was sentenced to 2 years and ten months of prison. The other two Venezuelan officers are Colonel Jesús Farias Rodríguez and Captain Rafael Farias Villasmil, who were each sentenced to nine years of prison. The 27 Colombians were each sentenced to six years prison.
When the group of Colombians were first arrested, many opposition leaders argued that the government had staged the arrests, in order to make the opposition look bad. They pointed out that no weapons were found with the paramilitary fighters and that the whole operation looked far too amateurish to have any chance of success. Also, it was argued that it is practically impossible to transport 120 Colombian paramilitary fighters undetected all the way from Colombia to Caracas, considering that there are numerous military control points along the way.
(snip)

http://www.voltairenet.org/article130297.html

[ohio2007]

170. A May 23, 2004 article ? even the pony express had faster breaking news routes! LOL

Maybe I can help you with your take on Colombian/Venezuelan relations...... ?


Your "slants" on Hugo won't win the converts over you hope they do....
Maybe the Kucinich crowd will buy into " your take " ;)

[AlphaCentauri]

147. RW media? look at the hispanic Michelle Malkin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-A2LmtCK_U

They speak with out proof just speculation

[ohio2007]

168. So CBS news links are RW sites? WOW, I didn't know CBS was banned

CBS serves up kool-aid.
Guess they need to be filtered as a reliable source.

[AlphaCentauri]

171. it could be the press release or the writer either way they need to make news

You may know what Elvira is talking about with out offering any proof. mmmm

:shrug:

[Judi Lynn]

172. Do yourself a favor, and start reading, like so many DU'ers. It can only HELP.

From an article posted here long ago, which has been examined many times since then:

The Media

Journalism is a perfect cover for CIA agents. People talk freely to journalists, and few think suspiciously of a journalist aggressively searching for information. Journalists also have power, influence and clout. Not surprisingly, the CIA began a mission in the late 1940s to recruit American journalists on a wide scale, a mission it dubbed Operation MOCKINGBIRD. The agency wanted these journalists not only to relay any sensitive information they discovered, but also to write anti-communist, pro-capitalist propaganda when needed.

The instigators of MOCKINGBIRD were Frank Wisner, Allan Dulles, Richard Helms and Philip Graham. Graham was the husband of Katherine Graham, today’s publisher of the Washington Post. In fact, it was the Post’s ties to the CIA that allowed it to grow so quickly after the war, both in readership and influence. (8)

MOCKINGBIRD was extraordinarily successful. In no time, the agency had recruited at least 25 media organizations to disseminate CIA propaganda. At least 400 journalists would eventually join the CIA payroll, according to the CIA’s testimony before a stunned Church Committee in 1975. (The committee felt the true number was considerably higher.) The names of those recruited reads like a Who's Who of journalism:

• Philip and Katharine Graham (Publishers, Washington Post)
  
• William Paley (President, CBS)
  
• Henry Luce (Publisher, Time and Life magazine)
  
• Arthur Hays Sulzberger (Publisher, N.Y. Times)
  
• Jerry O'Leary (Washington Star)
  
• Hal Hendrix (Pulitzer Prize winner, Miami News)
  
• Barry Bingham Sr., (Louisville Courier-Journal)
  
• James Copley (Copley News Services)
  
• Joseph Harrison (Editor, Christian Science Monitor)
  
• C.D. Jackson (Fortune)
  
• Walter Pincus (Reporter, Washington Post)
  
• ABC
  
• NBC
  
• Associated Press
  
• United Press International
  
• Reuters
  
• Hearst Newspapers
  
• Scripps-Howard
  
• Newsweek magazine
  
• Mutual Broadcasting System
  
• Miami Herald
  
• Old Saturday Evening Post
  
• New York Herald-Tribune

Perhaps no newspaper is more important to the CIA than the Washington Post, one of the nation’s most right-wing dailies. Its location in the nation’s capitol enables the paper to maintain valuable personal contacts with leading intelligence, political and business figures. Unlike other newspapers, the Post operates its own bureaus around the world, rather than relying on AP wire services. Owner Philip Graham was a military intelligence officer in World War II, and later became close friends with CIA figures like Frank Wisner, Allen Dulles, Desmond FitzGerald and Richard Helms. He inherited the Post by marrying Katherine Graham, whose father owned it.

After Philip’s suicide in 1963, Katharine Graham took over the Post. Seduced by her husband’s world of government and espionage, she expanded her newspaper’s relationship with the CIA. In a 1988 speech before CIA officials at Langley, Virginia, she stated:

We live in a dirty and dangerous world. There are some things that the general public does not need to know and shouldn’t. I believe democracy flourishes when the government can take legitimate steps to keep its secrets and when the press can decide whether to print what it knows.

This quote has since become a classic among CIA critics for its belittlement of democracy and its admission that there is a political agenda behind the Post’s headlines.

Ben Bradlee was the Post’s managing editor during most of the Cold War. He worked in the U.S. Paris embassy from 1951 to 1953, where he followed orders by the CIA station chief to place propaganda in the European press. (9) Most Americans incorrectly believe that Bradlee personifies the liberal slant of the Post, given his role in publishing the Pentagon Papers and the Watergate investigations. But neither of these two incidents are what they seem. The Post merely published the Pentagon Papers after The New York Times already had, because it wanted to appear competitive. As for Watergate, we’ll examine the CIA’s reasons for wanting to bring down Nixon in a moment. Someone once asked Bradlee: "Does it irk you when The Washington Post is made out to be a bastion of slanted liberal thinkers instead of champion journalists just because of Watergate?" Bradlee responded: "Damn right it does!" (10)

It would be impossible to elaborate in this short space even the most important examples of the CIA/media alliance. Sig Mickelson was a CIA asset the entire time he was president of CBS News from 1954 to 1961. Later he went on to become president of Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty, two major outlets of CIA propaganda.

http://www.aliveness.com/kangaroo/L-overclass.html

~~~~~~~~~~
Take some time off and read about Democratic Senator Frank Church's committee's investigation of the CIA and the media, in 1976. Wouldn't hurt you to know something about the subject you hope to discuss.

[AlphaCentauri]

188. Here are some more

10 Miami Journalists Take U.S. Pay
At least 10 local journalists accepted U.S. government pay for programs on Radio Martí or TV Martí. El Nuevo Herald fired two of them Thursday for conflict of interest.

by Oscar Corral

At least 10 South Florida journalists, including three from El Nuevo Herald, received regular payments from the U.S. government for programs on Radio Martí and TV Martí, two broadcasters aimed at undermining the communist government of Fidel Castro. The payments totaled thousands of dollars over several years.


Those who were paid the most were veteran reporters and a freelance contributor for El Nuevo Herald, the Spanish-language newspaper published by the corporate parent of The Miami Herald. Pablo Alfonso, who reports on Cuba and writes an opinion column, was paid almost $175,000 since 2001 to host shows on Radio Martí and TV Martí. El Nuevo Herald freelance reporter Olga Connor, who writes about Cuban culture, received about $71,000, and staff reporter Wilfredo Cancio Isla, who covers the Cuban exile community and politics, was paid almost $15,000 in the last five years.

...
Radio and TV Martí are U.S. government programs created to promote democracy and freedom in Cuba. Their programming cannot be broadcast within the United States because of anti-propaganda laws. Radio and TV Martí have received $37 million this year.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0908-12.htm

[ohio2007]

200. I'm not impressed by your archived collections of propaganda and conspiracies.

What will your amigo be doing a year or two from now?



http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/425822/1559575

settling scores with imaginary enemies?

[AlphaCentauri]

202. "settling scores with imaginary enemies?" there is no reason to be afraid of Chavez

He has no nukes, Venezuela is a democracy.

:donut:

[Bonobo]

140. Aren't you the same one arguing that global warming is a lie?

[DuaneBidoux]

142. Don't know if its true, but it's okay if it is for the greater socialist good.

The idiot is wrecking his country and now, eventually, because there have been no TRUE democratic reforms after the authoritarian years, there will likely be a bounce back like never before. It's sad the pendulum has to swing so wildly in so much of Latin America.

[Judi Lynn]

145. Provide some evidence the idiot is wrecking his country. Sounds as if you're referring to Bush.

If you actually are attempting to describe what has happened in Venezuela from February 2, 1999, when Hugo Chavez was inaugurated, it would be so helpful for DU'ers if you provided links to real information we could study, as normal people won't be interested in anyone's claims which are actually unsupported by fact.

Post your links, and people will surely read them.

[DuaneBidoux]

153. I only know of what I hear from what I consider to be reasonable Venezuelan ex pats.

Bush isn't ruining the country, that is to say you have used the progressive gerund. It is pretty much (the damage) done. But it reminds me a little of saying Stalin isn't so bad compared to Hitler. Big shit--that's no comparison.

Mark my word, when any government, using any slogan or any political party and calling itself left or right or middle, proceeds to begin, without vote or due process confiscating property there is chaos not far behind.


There's this thing called Google, you really ought to give it a try (of course I understand that for true believers of any stripe there is always a conspiracy in the works and I'm sure you can find plenty of reasons why every single bad thing you read about Chavez on the Internet is part of that conspiracy).

I just guess it depends on what you consider tolerable actions by a government. I do not consider confiscating property without due process (unless we are talking bout a true and life threatening emergency)to be one of those actions, and quite frankly I don't give a flying fuck what kind of politics the government says it has, when it does this I consider it damaging to the country and wrong. No government, without extreme prejudice, should be able to walk into anyone's property and walk away with it. Not in my opinion.

I consider myself quite far left and rather progressive, but I have been amazed to watch how ideology has left so many people who support Chavez on DU to be completely unable to do rational critique of the man.

Chavez is heading for a major fall (with, probably unfortunately, many of his great values) and when it happens it won't be anyone's fault but his own.

[EFerrari]

155. But, do you know anything about Venezuela?

After scanning your fact free post, I conclude you do not. :hi:

[AlphaCentauri]

148. 25 year of economic reforms have not been enough in latin america?

people still poor and struggling to survive but many think that they need another 25 years in hope some they the experiment work.

[DuaneBidoux]

154. I agree, and sympathize, but replacing one set of mistakes with another won't solve the problem.

Even though I am a progressive I simply do not believe that a dictator of the left is any better than a dictator of the right. So many disasterous episodes in ultimate totalitarianism have begun exactly this way in history it can't even be counted.

Study the Soviet Union, study Germany, study Italy, study Spain, (etc. etc.).
They all started out with these same phrases, these same slogans, these same actions, and virtually none of them ended well. Perhaps this time is different.

But I'll tell you this: I'm ready to put my money where my mouth is that it isn't any different this time either.

[EFerrari]

156. You discredit yourself the moment you use the word dictator

to describe a democracy whose elections are cleaner than ours are.

[DuaneBidoux]

162. The elections that brought Hitler to power were quite clean.

But once he was elected he began to dissasemble the democratic mechanisms of Germany.

What amazes me is how many people keep defending Chavez by comparing him to us or to Bush. This is a non sequitor. There is no doubt that Bush stole the 2000 election with the help of his brother and the Supreme Court, but that changes nothing about what Chavez is now doing.

Honestly reflect for a moment, if you can, what your reaction would have been if about three years ago Bush had started a serious move to change the constitution so he could be elected democratically to as many terms as the country wanted. Ultimately Chavez did not succeed in this endeavor, but be honest with yourself if possible about the response there would have been on DU if Bush had even made the attempt.

I believe I am a progressive because, as Colbert said, reality has a liberal bias. But if we are unable to seriously look around and reflect within ourselves about the world there is vs. the one we want, then our ideology makes us just as blind as the right.

[EFerrari]

164. Oh, fer Christsake. Chavez shows no sign of dismantling democracy

quite the contrary.

Bush doesn't bother to go through the courts or through the electorate. He simply uses signing statements.

And, it is not a non sequitor to compare one democracy with another insofar as what we have here may be called a democracy.

[DuaneBidoux]

192. Okay, perhaps non--sequitor was a poor choice. It's irrelevant.

I teach school and hear constantly when I am correcting a student "but Billy does it all the time." But as I tell "Johnny" the currently offending student, that has nothing to do with his own behavior--only he is responsible for that.

It's like a Sheepish Republican who is becoming a bit uncomfortable with Bush's anti-democratic actions saying "But he's nothing compared to Putin."

Or a Russian liberal complaining about Bush on a user group in Russia and being critized because he doesn't happen to want, in the same breath, to critizize Putin for being "worse." That is, from the Russian perspective Bush is okay because after all, our Putin is much "worse." (Indeed, he may be worse, much worse, but Bush is still not okay).

I have made literally hundreds of posts tearing the shreds out of Bush, in which I mentioned no other leader who was "better" or "worse."

But I did ask one simple question: are you able, for just a moment, to reflect on how you would feel if Bush tried to amend the constitution to be elected indefinitely? Can you for one moment put aside everything and in a moment of empathy to those who are iffy about Chavez ask yourself how would I and DU for that matter, react to such a move by Bush?

[AlphaCentauri]

166. Term limits

Reflecting on your analysis I would think that in a democracy with clean elections there would be no effect if there are term limits or not, lets look at FDR 4 terms elected and what about the senate term limits. It will be more dangerous a corrupt democracy were money decide who is your candidate, where the media select the candidate who can buy more advertisement and corporations decide what are the public polices.

[DuaneBidoux]

193. And that's it! My critique and concerns for Chavez say nothing about us,

Don't even get me going on how our own special interest corporate driven money electing machine works. I am absolutely, with no exceptions for strict public funding of campaigns and NO outside money period (from Unions, or companies, or countries, or even individual people).

You get so many signatures, you get seed money, you finish in a top so many number after a fixed number of early primaries and then you get funded until the nomination is determined. After that both major candidates (or independents too if they have met a threshold) have a certain amount of money to finish the campaign. And that is it.

Our infrastructure of democracy, I believe, is much stronger than most countries such as say, for example France (on the fifth republic). I think this means it is more easily able to survive, and bounce back, from an abusive president such as Bush. What I mean is that we have such strong structures that it is much harder to instituionalize those abuses in the regular application of political power. We DID recover from Nixon (and much worse in our history. (don't forget, FDR interred, or was at least complicit in the interment of, Japanese Americans). As egregious as that was it was not a sign of worse things to come, and in fact, on that account, racism and anti-democratic moves against (don't forget) Americans, is has gotten better since).

Chavez supporters on DU are incredibly defensive and seem to me to be un-objective in their analysis of his faults. But he is a man, and he likes power like all men. What checks the abuse of power is not character(in spite of what conservatives think about "character"). All men are subject to corruption if there are not systemic institutions to protect the body politic.

I hope for the best for Chavez and the people of Venezuela. But my personal, and granted speculative perspective, at this moment, is that with his methods Chavez is blowing his chance to make permanent, progressive, and democratic changes in Venezuela.

Venezuela has no such strong historical democratic infrastructure and I believe Chavez should be approaching the building of these structures at least as fast as he is doing other things such as health care.

[AlphaCentauri]

203. Votes Vs. Money

When a elected official represent the money interests that pay for their campaign it just become a masked pseudo democracy with out sense. The poor it's not able to finance a candidate.

About Chavez, he was elected in a democratic way but as soon as he took power the campaign to demonize the guy took place, should we expect a reaction from this guy? of course. Are we destroying their democracy in the same way we did in Chile? maybe, just pushing the guy to the extreme.

[AlphaCentauri]

163. Germany, Italy, Spain, Iraq, Chile, Iran, Argentina, Brazil, Nicaragua, Panama

Can't count all the right wing friendly dictators that at one time or another were our allies.
Many of them got in power to defeat a leftist government and to kill as many ideologist and thinkers as they could.

Do you consider China,United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait dictatorships?
If so why we don't democratize them?

[DuaneBidoux]

165. I still don't get it. I didn't say we should democratize anybody.

People seem to be unable to look at Chavez from the outside without reference to our stupid and destructive policies.

It is not some vast left wing conspiracy among unions and people at DU that will sweep the Republicans (we hope) out of power and the Dems into a huge majority in congress with a dem president--it is the stupid policies of Bush, regardless of anything else.

Why is everyone unable to look at Chavez without talking about all the bad right wing dictators? Okay, I admit it, they were (are) our friends) it was (is wrong), there are big multinationals and countries such as the US working against Venezuela's interest. But that does not change that Chavez has now begin to hurt, not help, his people.

You don't make it harder for these forces to win with Chavez's actions, you ultimately make it easier. I truly want Venezuela to succeed in their actions but you don't get, in the long run, anywhere by acting like the other side (and yes, I will grant you that he isn't, generally as bad as the "other side"). But my point is, that on his current trajectory, he will fail, and he will fail not because of Bush or multinationals but because ultimately his policies (or at least his METHODS) will be repudiated by his own countrymen. And that will make me sad.

But at this rate, that, is also inevitable.

PS: there was also another post on DU that made me feel good: Venezuela was, with several partners, establishing their own bank outide of the big corporate international western banking system. This is the kind of action, that in the long run, will change things for the better.

[AlphaCentauri]

167. I would not predict anything

Just we don't get enough informations about what is been done there, all we get is Chavez rants and saids but nobody talks about education, health, poverty and other issues that are more important for the Venezuelan people than predictions and swift vet like stories about Chavez.
Just compare every Venezuelan administration in the last 40 years and see how much they have accomplish.

[DuaneBidoux]

181. And, I'm not saying there is nothing good happening because of Chavez.

There are probably many great things happening--I know I have read from a number of sources that health care for the bottom tier is improving dramatically, and I say awesome!

Cuba has better health care than we do but I still wouldn't want to live there. Perhaps you feel differently than I on that account. But if I say Castro is a very bad dictator (and try finding some friends of Castro among ex-pat Cubans), that doesn't mean I am nullifying any of the good things he may have done for his countrymen. It is always a judgement call as to what liberties to trade for what security, and perhaps the Venezuelans are fully aware and approve. And for that again I say bravo.

I simply don't see, IF (and yes this is a big if) the reports are reasonably accurate that his behavior will lead to ultimate success for truly helping the people.

[AlphaCentauri]

189. All those reports..

When I see someone doing good for their people I don't care if they are from the Right or left but for their people and I don't see the right doing that so often.