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Cannikin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:08 PM
Original message
Bush sets course for 2015 moon landing
Edited on Wed Jan-14-04 03:12 PM by Cannikin
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3950099/
WASHINGTON - President Bush proposed on Wednesday to develop a new spacecraft to carry Americans back to the moon by 2015, and to establish a long-term base there as an eventual springboard to Mars and beyond.

"Bush would withdraw the United States from the international space station by 2010 and retire the space shuttle fleet at about the same time. "

"Probes, landers and other unmanned spacecraft would explore the lunar surface beginning no later than 2008 to research and prepare for future human exploration." *Havent we done that?*


My big question....will there BE an America left in 2015?
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. More of Bush's race to bankrupt the US Government.
Some candidate should work that thought into their campaign.
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Cannikin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Why withdraw from the station?
How much did we spend on it?
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Kinkistyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
74. Because it is "International"
Just like we are trying to withdraw from the UN and NATO. Just more unilateralism. After all, what would the Russians say if we decided a space station would be a good place to launch missiles from.
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. That day Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon
in 1969, chimp was waisted and vomiting into Saturn (toilet). He has no idea that we've already landed there.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
46. NPR Had The Head of the Air & Space Museum On..
today. Broadcast during Newshour from the BBC. THis guy was such a hack. When asked, by Robin Lustig (sp) whether we the US should venture to the Moon and to Mars when there are SO many other needs in the US, this dude said "Sure." Guess if he had said no, then he would be looking for a job! He said that it was important to send humans as opposed to machines because, and I quote "Computers do not have common sense." Um, excuse me, but I really don't my computer thinking for me. Should I be scared?
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adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. I can't wait that long
send him tomorrow!!!
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bush couldn't set a clock if they told him where the big hand went.
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callous taoboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. We need to immediately explore space...
the space between w's ears.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hellooooo---
what about setting course for PRESSING ISSUES...like getting those pesky unemployed americans JOBS? Like giving states more help so they don't have to raise college tuition by FORTY PERCENT? How about helping people make enough money to meet their basic monthly bills? How about helping the millions of uninsured get basic health coverage? What about helping those who have lost everything they owned because of shitty companies like Enron and Worldcom? How about setting a course to bring home the troops from Iraq and Afghanistan?

What about those? Set a fucking course for THOSE issues, not a non-issue like going to the fucking moon.

And just to clarify, I think that space exploration is a wonderful thing. I'm saddened that NASA has been cut so that we can't see more of our beautiful and mysterious universe. But right now, we've got many more pressing issues that should be dealt with than going to the moon, and I don't understand why the news media is all oohing and aaahing over this assinine proposal instead of asking why that money can't be better spent to better the lives of Americans NOW, instead of vying for something that's not going to happen for 11 years....
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. Odd
The lead off paragraph refers to Bush's proposal in the past tense, but was posted prior to his speach? My reply is being posted about 3:13pm, speach at 3:15
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. pre release of speech to press, I assume
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Is that common?
If so, OK. I just hadn't noticed it before.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. standard procedure
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Jawja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. Withdrawing from the
Edited on Wed Jan-14-04 03:16 PM by Jawja
Space Station is a bad idea. This sounds like another "go it alone" initiative.

To explore Mars and beyond, we need an alliance of expertise, scientific knowledge, and capital. The world's best minds should have an opportunity in this quest of mankind. The Space Station is founded on this and could be a vital and necessary link between the Earth and a return trip to the moon.

However, since * has bankrupted us in favor of unnecessary war and tax cuts for the rich, I don't see how he proposes to pay for it, unless it is a truly international effort.

on edit: typing skills not good today
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. I agree
If there is to be a Mars mission, the space station is a logical place to launch it from. Use it as a staging place, putting components of the vehicle together there where you have facilities for doing longer term, detailed work, free of the need to boost a single massive vehicle out of the deepest part of Earths gravity well.

And removing funds from the Shuttle program before you have a replacement? 'Nother bad idea.

I sense this is a way to kill of NASA's current big projects, so that it can be completely killed later when the "replacement" programs haven't gotten up to speed.

That'll leave just military and big corporate launch abilities.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Check out my posting below...
Edited on Wed Jan-14-04 03:43 PM by Hell Hath No Fury
and you'll see a good reason why they want to go it alone.
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Sagan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. what a load of bologna


Naturally, the media whores just breathlessly report this crap.

In light of Chimpy's other "big vision" promise, the fight against AIDS in Africa, how can we believe that THIS initiative will get any funding?

This stuff is just setting up for filler in the Chimp's SOTU lie-o-rama. The more he talks about space, the less he has to talk about Iraq and the economy.

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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. Bush thinks he'd be safe from Prosecution as a war criminal
on the moon, or for sure on Mars.
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MrMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. How long will it take?
How far will we be into Bush*s speech before he blames "lib'ruls" for cutting the space program budget?

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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
15. strong scientific support to continue robotic (machanized) exploration
as most effective use of dollars. Manned flight is more costly (and inherently dangerous for loss of life - duh) and does not provide any more usable info. Human flight, though, does offer a dramatic symbolic event. And, I still think this is not about scientific exploration, with Bush it's about militarism expansion.
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Zero Gravitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
17. Was he wearing a Spacesuit
when he gave the speech?

Space Cadet Dubya just back from the Space Station (he flew the Shuttle himself! How decisive! How manly!)

:puke:
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. artist's rendering..........
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
50. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Skimming this BWHAHAHAHA thread to find BWHAHAHA exactly what i was looking for <choke> <churtle> BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
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Rebel_with_a_cause Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
19. Can we get an exit strategy for Iraq first?
Bush: a man on the go, but going no where.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. HE's going to develop it? Any volunteers?
President Bush proposed on Wednesday to develop a new spacecraft

Lessee carry the two and (tongue sticking out of mouth) draw a pointy end on it.....
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MrMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. He's got Karen and Karl to do the engineering
in an ideologically correct manner, of course.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. The rocket will only go to the right
:bounce:

Oops we missed on that orbit.....hey how much gas have we got in this thing anyway?
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webtrainer Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
49. it'll be hard to fly . . .
with just a right wing!
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
21. Hot air. Let another President pay the bill...
I propose that we establish a base on Mars by 2015. Can I be President now?
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
23. Something to read up on....
A dupe of my post on another space thread:

From my website:

In September of 2000, just months before George W. Bush was elected to the Presidency, The Project for a New American Century put out a report entitled "Rebuilding America's Defences: Strategies, Forces and Resources for a New American Century". (4) Their key findings concluded that, for the armed forces to carry out core missions in the new century, the United States would be required, among other things, to:

• Control the new "international commons" of space and "cyberspace", and pave the way for the creation of a new military service -- U.S. Space Forces -- with a mission of space control.

• Develop and deploy global missiles defenses to defend the American homeland and American allies, and to provide a secure basis for U.S. power projection around the world.


Paul Wolfowitz, the current Deputy Secretary of Defense, participated in the creation of that report.

When you read their report, you can see EXACTLY why Bush is pushing for this move at this time. It is spelled out clear as day. Every new technology, new craft, new launch capability will have a dual use -- one commercial and one military. In the report they go to great lengths to point out the NASA technological findings that have been used by the current armed forces.

Folks, they are calling for a new branch of the armed forces, the Space Forces! They call for the US to have total control of space, including commercial use, and to have full say as to who has ACCESS to space. That is one good reason to abandon the international spaec station and go it alone -- they couldn't have total control over it.

To check out the full report on their plans, go to:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm

The space section is around page 50 -- give or take a few.

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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. That's what I thought this was really about-money and weapons.
He said in his speech that it would involve the private sector, which I take to mean his buds in the energy and defense business. I remember reading somewhere that Rummy is big on this weapons in space stuff, I can't remember where. So, this basically takes care of the one or two spare dollars that the government isn't sending to big business or the rich already. And it explains why we are pulling out of the space station. Does this mean that we are going to be in another space race to see who gets to the Moon first? This administration just can't help itself, can it? Everything is about occupation and colonization. This bunch should have lived in the fifteenth century.
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Raygun commented once "....imagine the world coming together...."
....."...united to defend the planet from an alien race." I swear I read an interview he did back in the 80's on Rense.com where he was quoted as sayin' something o'this sort...guess they're still gonna run with his insane rants....just in case?! :tinfoilhat:
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Barkley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
61. Great Post!
Thanks for sharing this; its very important and timely.

It puts this whole initiative into perspective.






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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
76. aha
I was wondering when he was going to announce oil drilling on the moon. Naturally, "we" just want to spread war to the fartherest reaches of the universe!!!

For CRYING out loud. Meanwhile, we'll just burn off a bunch more of our limited oil supplies on earth to arm the stars. uh huh ..
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
24. think of all the possible contracts
for his buddies. This makes me ill. War in Iraq, thousands of people out of work, millions living in poverty, etc. Can the US use our tax dollars to do good.
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Rebel_with_a_cause Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
26. I nominate George to be the first man on Mars
We'll tell him the air there is a hell of an improvement over Houston's. He'll jump at the chance.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
27. The Space Cadet in Chief.
With more and more children going to bed hungry in America now that Bush is in office, he'd better hope that the moon is indeed made of cream cheese. There appears to be no other reason for him to consider this harebrained scheme!
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
58. A new meme is born! n/t
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blockhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
30. more money
It's just more money for his space and military contractor buddies.
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Spirochete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
31. Fine, send * to Mars
IF he's eligible for parole by then...

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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
32. All you folks are treating junior extremely shitty -
This space program is Clinton's dream and junior is just following through. No joke!
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. Fine, but Clinton left us some money (surplus) to use for it..
Talking about space ventures now with this deficit and infinite wars going forward is like planning to buy a luxury jet while you're at the pawn shop borrowing to pay off yesterday's grocery bill.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Chuckle...
chortle!
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
34. Shrub: Moon=good
details=boring, complicated
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
36. Phony as a three Euro bill
This would be bad enough if there was a surplus to spend, but when the U.S. is already running a $500 billion deficit it isn't even a pipe dream. If countries that have the spare money are interested enough in going to the moon, why wouldn't they do it themselves, rather than lend the U.S. half a trillion to a trillion.

I suffered through CNN for a few moments, to learn that NASA will get a 5% increase on its $15 billion budget over the next five years. Let's see, that would bring the budget up to about $18.5 billion. Still a little short. But the CNN shill talked about how this time the NASA budget for moon/Mars wouldn't include "chrome and tail fins".

This whole thing is a crock, but it could provide a cover story for blowing a few hundred billion on a space missile defense system that would never work anyway.
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confusius Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. The shill was a dumd ass
What chrome and tail fins? the lander was the thickness of alluminum foil in some places. I guess no chrome and tail fins means strapping a guy in a space suit to the front of an ICBM.
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
37. going to destoy the moon also?
hasn't man done enough to the planet earth? Why destroy another planet..and who knows what the result will be if anything happens on the moon if they decide to blast into the center.what happens to the planet system if the moon is harmed or blown up???anyone with any ideas on how this will effect earth?
the moon belongs to no one country.....
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
62. Wouldn't be the first time they planned on something crazy like that!
The USG once planned to detonate a nuke on the moon:
'I made it clear at the time there would be a huge cost to science of destroying a pristine lunar environment, but the US Air Force were mainly concerned about how the nuclear explosion would play on earth,' said Reiffel.

Although he believes the blast would have had little environmental impact on Earth, its crater may have ruined the face of the 'man in the moon'.

Reiffel would not reveal how the explosion would have taken place. But he confirmed it was 'certainly technically feasible' and that at the time an intercontinental ballistic nuclear missile would have been capable of hitting a target on the moon with an accuracy of within two miles.

Reiffel was approached by senior US Air Force officers in 1958, who asked him to 'fast-track' a project to investigate the visibility and effects of a nuclear explosion on the moon. The top-secret Project A119, was entitled 'A Study of Lunar Research Flights'.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4017966-102275,00.html

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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
38. Given the impending crisis with the Oil Peak,
going to the Moon now seems not only foolish but impossible. Does Bush not know that civilization as we know it is about to end?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
63. Most people don't understand Peak Oil.
Those of us who do are, rightly, pretty worried about it. Or terrified. Yeah, that's a better word.

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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. Terrified is right.
And here I was, worried about global warming. It makes getting Bush out of office a matter of life or death, and chances are slim even that will help matters much.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #69
78. Massive die-off is coming. No way around it.
Fortunately, as I believe that death is just one of many transitional phases, I no longer worry about dying.

Living in horrible conditions, now that I worry about...!

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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
39. Extremely poor timing on this one..
Completely out of touch, totally delusional, sick little man.
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confusius Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
40. Bush proposes portal to the land of the fairies
WASHINGTON - President Bush proposed on Wednesday to develop a new portal to carry Americans back and forth to the land of the fairies, and to establish a long-term base there.

"I've beena watching the TV, and tell you what, this is needed so I can protect 'Mericuns. I see these to fairies on this show "fairly oddparents", and they can whip up all sorts of things. Tanks, aircraft, send people to Texas and back in no time. Just think of the time I cud spend at ma ranch. While I sip mint jullips, the could be a whippin' up Tanks and planes and stuff to defend 'merica. And at a price of $800 billion, its affordable, for YOU. (grimace)"

Pundits and conservatives hailed it as the most brilliant plan ever heard of, including sliced bread and the mousetrap. Paula Zan, Bill O'really, Rush limba and Shawn hannity all exploded into a white cloud after praising the plan, and comparing bush to JFK, MLK, Churchill, FDR, Theodore Roosevelt, Einstein, Mr. Rogers, Augustus, Jesus, and Rameses II, all rolled into one.
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. LOL...that's priceless......Welcome to DU......
:hi:....all rolled into one!!!! :D
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
42. I have got to say one thing
whoever it is that is in charge of this propaganda is a genius.

We see the photos of Bush smirking in front of a NAFTA banner looking as though he absolutely has taken this country above and beyond all expectations , and we now have the "meme" of Bush being connected to Kennedy.

Absolute genius--and if it keeps up without a single Democrat coming forward to spur us on to take back this country, the American people will be so entranced they will indeed vote for this idiot and he will be a second term idiot.

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IkeWarnedUs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
45. This isn't about space exploration - it is part of the PNAC blueprint!
Just like everything else Bush has done the past 3 years, this is part of the PNAC plan.

I just posted the sections of the PNAC September 2000 report that talk about the need to control space and establish a new military service - U.S. Space Forces.

Link to the thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1017371
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ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
47. As meaningless as his Dad's Mars project
I'm all for space exploration. I thought this might be something, the one thing, that I could swallow hard and say, "Bush made a good proposal".

But no, this guy would screw up a ... well I won't say it but you know what I mean.

So its going to take 11+ years to go someplace that we got to in 8-9 starting from nothing 40+ years ago.

Six more years of the long obsolete shuttle?

2015....that could be the end of Jeb's second term...scary thought isn't it.
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The Sushi Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
48. Its the BEST IDEA the WORST president has had!
too bad Clinton didnt get it going first!
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. BINGO!!!
WINNER for the BEST HEADLINE!!! ((Oh, my sides!!!))
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confusius Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Yea, I'd like to do it to
It would be wonderful to step onto Mars, but....

How we gonna pay for it ($500 billion red ink)
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Brought to you by
the same *folks who gave you the failsafe nopasstest missile defense shield done already set up accounts and poured concrete keep you safe in Amurikkka. Sign up here X______________________.
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
55. and who is gonna pay for it?
I am not going to hold my breath for this one
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young_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. One guess!
You are........the big boys aren't going to fork over anything.
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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
57. Is anyone watching the Keith Oberman show?
John Glenn was just on, talking about the Moon plan. He said that we should not take money away from projects that are needed here in this country to bankroll this. He said that W's daddy wanted to do much the same thing and talked about it in 1989. Then Glenn quoted some astronomical (sorry) figure that was about twenty times what Captain Video said it would cost and said that was why no one could do it. He also said that we should work more on the current space station. And I can't remember the rest. But basically he said that W was talking out of his ass, as usual.
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vanityfair Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
59. Hopefully, he'll be
...the first volunteer to man the station!

Pardon me - although I'm intrigued by space travel - this seems like an incredible waste of money. Who's going to pay for this? Would you folks rather have a lunar space station, or universal medical care?
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flaminbats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
60. and he made it sound so easy!
"It's not a race, it's a journey!"

At one other point...repeating the same line over and over, "The journey will have some risk...it may have some...":silly:

I liked how there were now clear goals, nice fuzzy objectives, and re-arrangable spending priorities. He stated we can complete the station and retire the shuttle in 2010. Start using the new launch vehicle, that sounds strangely like one of those mini-space bombers, in 2010. And then he said "ONTO MAR AND OTHER PLANETS AFTER THAT!"..

But of course he will not be in office when we land men again on the moon, he may not be in office to see the new launch vehical go up, or even to see the new Station being completed! But we will be paying the burdens left behind by the trillions and trillions in wasteful government spending by President Moonbeam. And many more generations to come will be left focus on nothing more than struggling over these mountains of debt, which expand high into the reaches of deep space!

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. If there was any justice (or if we had the courage)...
...he wouldn't be in office to see the sunrise tomorrow. He'd have to enjoy it from his cell at the Hague.

Here's what jumped out at me:

"Bush would withdraw the United States from the international space station by 2010 and retire the space shuttle fleet at about the same time."

Please explain to me how, even if elected in November, the traitor could withdraw the U.S. from anything in six years, when the term lasts four years?

Here's a hint: no more elections.

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flaminbats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. I'll take your word for it,..although I probably missed that line.
Edited on Wed Jan-14-04 11:30 PM by flaminbats
His long, incoherent ramblings indicated he would reallocate NASA spending away from safe but informative unmanned robotic missions, toward things like completing, rather than abandoning, "the Space Station." It appears to be a very complex operation..ISS would become our stop-off to the moon and the moon would be our stopping point to Mars. But this would all be fine, if it were a cheap luxury cruise!

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rocketdem Donating Member (496 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
65. Another Opinion -- From a pro-space perspective
First a disclaimer. I am a space enthusiast. I am involved in the space program so I have an obvious bias. There is, however, no chance that I will get rich with one approach or lose my job with another approach. My bias is not financially driven. I just wanted that to be clear lest I be accused of having a secret agenda.

I support the notion of revitalizing the space program. Unfortunately, Bush is philosophically, and probably intellectually, incapable of presenting a compelling argument resembling justification. I would suggest instead that we look to the forthright honesty of Kennedy's proposal forty-two years ago.

How much did the Apollo program cost? Does anyone talk about that? Not much. Instead it is held up as a crowning achievement of American ingenuity and ideals. We are a great nation and we dream great dreams. Kennedy did not say that our dreams would be easy to fulfill. Indeed, he said that we pursue these dreams specifically because they are hard, because they will test us and focus us and organize our energies to even greater accomplishments in the future.

Much has been written within this thread regarding the money. Let me ask you something, where do you think that the money will go? Do you think that someone will pocket $12 billion or $600 billion? That's ridiculous. Yes, some will go to corporate profits via contracts, but the majority will go to hard-working men and women pursuing the goals of the program. Kennedy was honest about this too. He virtually called it a jobs program.

Yes, it is expensive for a jobs program. It is not the WPA. But existence of those jobs will mean that new students, those twenty years ago, ten years ago, and even today will have the motivation and opportunity to pursue a technical education because I can guarantee you that millions of dollars will rain down on the universities of the land should this program take off for real.

As to how we as a nation pay for this, that's simple. We elect a Dem as president and we turn the House and Senate back to Dem control. Then we put the nation as a whole back on stable, responsible ground. It is precisely because of the great things that we could do, like an expansive and ambitious space program, that should help us sell the notion that we must not bankrupt our federal government. This should be one of our rallying cries.

Now, with regards to the specific proposal laid out today, I was at many points sorely disappointed but not surprised. There were glaring and obvious mistakes and there were things proposed that bordered on idiotic. However, I'm hoping that we will have the opportunity to straighten out these things while retaining whatever momentum might have been generated towards real progress.

Let Bush take the credit for the initial push. Let him do so as a private citizen next year. For it will be the intervening administrations over the next two or three decades that will truly be worthy of praise and glory should we actually pull off something remarkable.

My 2 cents.
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flaminbats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #65
75. the value of those two cents have decreased over time...
Edited on Thu Jan-15-04 01:47 AM by flaminbats
In 1965, near the rise of the space race...less than 7% of our tax dollars went to paying interest on the national debt. Today this amount is closer to twice that percentage in tax dollars paid. When you include Shrub's taxcuts and the spending needed to fund our new occupations, what would have been a strain equals more suffering in terms of less medicine, less security, and finally less spending on education for the next generations. Our nation's total national debt in when we landed men on the moon was smaller than our deficit is just for this year!

I agree an adminstration needs to do something remarkable to inspire the people and nation to greatness. But when Kennedy proposed to land men on the moon, it was a goal to be achieved within 10 years. A goal he rightly felt would change the balance of power, and a goal that many felt was insane at that time! But he put everything on the table, his political career, his idealism, and even the good name of our nation if this failed. But we accomplished much, and although neither Jack or Bobby were around to see the moment, it made us what all others hoped to become...free, liberal, and American.

1969 was also a year that we had a budget surplus.

Now we also have a year of challenges. But the challenges of curing expanding available healthcare, providing some basic needs, paying down the national debt, while making Social Security survive to anothor generation makes another lunar landing seem easy! But what has shrub laid on the table? Nothing but the collective asses of the taxpayers of our generations and those of the future to be screwed. There are no clear objectives to which we could hold him accountable!
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
66. Course set: 180-mark-0
(Backwards)
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
68. I'm all for sending Bush to the Moon
On a one-way ticket.
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Barkley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
70. Our National Debt: "To Infinity and Beyond"
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lowflyer10 Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
71. I don't want to hear any Clark supporters making fun of Bush*
Remember that whole time travel thing Clark was talking about? They're all looney!!! Ha Ha Ha!!!!
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Kinkistyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
72. Deleted Message
Edited on Thu Jan-15-04 12:06 AM by japanduh
deleted
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JusticeForAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
73. I have not laughed so much
in soooo long. This thread is awesome.

Some things I found on Yahoo regarding our least favorite Martian....

"Mars is essentially in the same orbit...Mars is somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe." ....Governor George W. Bush, Jr., 8/11/94

Great maybe we can encourage the Bushes and extended family to set up camp out there while the pikins' are good! We can call it the Lunar White House and the Martian Chapel Ranch. There's oil in them thar hills.

Cynical politics as usual- this plan is a reward to Delay for redistricting texas, and an attempt to shore up voter support in florida. (not funny :( )

Oh, the WMDs are on Mars then!?!?!

1) Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history;
2) Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period;
3) Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market;
4) First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history;
5) After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history;
6) In his first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs;
7) Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history;
8) Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history;
9) Signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in US history;
10) Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed;
11) Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans;
12) Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest a sitting American President, shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind;
13) Dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history;
14) First president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt;
15) Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world;
16) First president in US history to order a US attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation;
17) Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States;
18) Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history;
19) First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission;
20) First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board;
21) All-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations;
22) Biggest life-time campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation);
23) Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history;
24) Took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history);
25) With a policy of 'disengagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years;
26) Fist US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view his presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability;
27) First US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea;
30) Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts;
31) Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts;
32) Failed to fulfill his pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive';
33) Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months he has no leads and zero suspects;
34) In the 18 months following the 911 attacks he successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States;
35) Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history;
36) Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category straight down.
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aeon flux Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 04:43 AM
Response to Original message
77. Privatize NASA

Whoever wants this voyage, let them pay for it.
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