SoCal woman mauled to death by pit bulls

[superconnected]

Source: Associated Press

BARSTOW, Calif. - A pack of pit bulls surrounded a woman and mauled her to death, authorities said Wednesday.

Police found Kelly Caldwell, 45, lying in the street around 9:30 p.m. Tuesday, and took her to a hospital, where she later died, the San Bernardino County sheriff's department said.

After the mauling, the dogs ran to a nearby house. Deputies shot one dog to death when it returned to the scene and acted aggressively as paramedics were trying to save Caldwell's life, authorities said.

A second dog was shot to death Wednesday morning when it, too, returned. Deputies said it became aggressive as an animal control officer tried to capture it.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071227/ap_on_re_us/mauling_death

---

You can bet the dogs were taught that way and this is owner negligence.

[arcos]

1. ...

:popcorn:

[Selatius]

2. The dogs should have been leashed.

If the owners violated the leash law, that's the least of their concerns. They're looking at possibly negligent homicide as a result.

[Madam Mossfern]

3. I very much hope

that there is not going to be an all out war on pit bulls. We have one who is the sweetest, most gentle, loving dog I have ever known. If he accidentally steps on your foot and you say "ow" he goes off to the corner and puts himself in time out.

Obviously these owners conditioned their dog to attack. If you do any research about pit bulls, you'll know that they were bred not to harm people.

edited because I figured out how to post this photo:

[Selatius]

4. Ultimately, it's still irrelevant. The onus of responsibility rests with the owners regardless of...

breed. If they broke the leash law, the owners will likely be held to account, and if they trained their pit bulls for fighting and attacking, those pit bulls will likely be put down as two of them already have been.

[bitchkitty]

8. Awwwwwwwwww! I'm jealous...almost -

Except my little guy is gorgeous too! He goes to playcare and romps with Pit Bulls, Rotweillers, Dobies, among other assorted breeds. I have perfect peace of mind when he's there because I know that the dogs are all well trained and well socialized.

It's not the dogs. It's never the dogs. IT'S THE OWNERS!!!!!

[Phx_Dem]

45. Is your dog a mix?

beagle and pit bull is my guess. Cute.

[bitchkitty]

174. Nope, pure Beagle -

he's a bicolor, red and white - like Underdog, but much cuter! :)

[Critters2]

188. Nice dog! I have a beagle, too. A tri.

Mine, however, was once attacked by a pit bull.

[bitchkitty]

197. Poor little guy!

Beagles are the most lovable animals on the planet. I've never had a dog who wanted to be liked so much, by everyone. My sister's chihuahua bites him all the time, but he keeps trying to be friends.

[frankf]

274. *waves*

thanks for the nice doggy pic. I totally agree that dog problems are always down to the owner.

[Sugar Smack]

289. OMG!! I'm in love!

:loveya: What a sweet smile. What a face!

[DrDan]

11. "bred not to harm people"??????

Do you know the number 1 reason children end up in hospital emergency rooms? Dog attacks.

Pit Bulls are responsible for a third of fatalities and a third of serious dog bites.

[yardwork]

42. I was attacked by a St. Bernard when I was a child - that's a supposedly nice breed.

Miniature dachshunds bite a lot of children every year - fortunately, they're mouths are small so they usually can't inflict much damage. There are no "safe" breeds and there are no vicious breeds. All animals will bite.

[eagler]

61. It's not St. Bernards involved in most maulings - the record is clear

[yardwork]

113. That's my point. And nobody considers dachshunds to be a scary breed, but they often bite.

My point is that all animals bite. Larger animals inflict worse bites.

[MnFats]

160. the difference, as I understand it....

...is that Pit Bulls are so powerfully built they can inflict damage in a matter of seconds if they go off, and are harder to restrain once they've done so.
i could be wrong, so don't flame me. I hate to be flamed!

[yardwork]

224. No flaming here! I love dogs, but I realize that they are all capable of inflicting damage.

I've heard the same about pit bulls. Apparently their jaws are extremely powerful. Their heads are certainly very large - I've see that myself.

[lisby]

67. One almost took my finger off

(miniature Dachshund) when I was a kid--at it was a dog I had known since it was a puppy. One day I just leaned down to pet him and snap!

What a sad way to lose a finger, via a teenie little wiener like that. His name was Frantz, to top it all off.

[NightHawk63]

92. Still sporting a scar from a St. Bernard bite....

from when I was 5. I'm 44 now.

[Maraya1969]

104. The problem is some people are bred to harm people. And they

use Pit Bulls because Pit Bulls are better than Poodles when it comes to fighting. It's the people who beat them and make them mean who should be put down.

Truthfully I am scared of Pit Bulls even though I have known some really sweet ones. The problem is I know one of my neighbor's Pit Bull and it tried to attack me once but was stopped by the large chain that he was tied to. He is so big and his jaws were huge and he scared the shit out of me. But his owner just said, "Well you should keep your dogs on a leash". And I know there are other jackasses who train their dogs to be like this. It is their size and their jaws that make them dangerous when trained to fight.

He was complaining about my Chihuahua and my Poodle who were walking right next to me.

[Patchuli]

179. What did your dogs being unleashed have to do

with his wild beast scaring the heck out of you *and* your doggies? That kind of human is the problem!

[Maraya1969]

201. Not a damn thing. He was just making an pathetic excuse.

[Patchuli]

273. Report him and the wild beast to Animal Control

That dog sounds like a terrible accident waiting to happen!

[Recursion]

BS

Pit Bulls are responsible for a third of fatalities and a third of serious dog bites.

American Staffordshire Terriers and American Pit Bull Terriers are responsible for a third of all dog attack fatalities?

I call bullshit.

I remember when the panic was about German Shepherds. And when it was about Rotts. And Dobermans. Come to think of it, the only serious dog attack I have any first-hand knowledge of was a German Shepherd.

[NashVegas]

184. Here Ya Go

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

When you throw in Rotties, the number goes up to 60% or higher.

[Hekate]

196. Every generation another aggressive breed becomes a fad with people who want an aggressive dog

When I was a kid I was jumped by a German Shepherd while crossing my own street--as a 4 year old off to share her Christmas presents I'm sure I must have presented some kind of damn threat to that animal. The whole time I was growing up it seemed that every other German Shepherd was named "Sarge" and all were excessively territorial.

Then it was Doberman Pinschers. Fortunately the first two that I knew personally were being raised for show and companionship by a friend in college. They were without question the best-mannered big dogs I have ever known -- but my friend repeated stories to illustrate how passionately they would defend their territory and her. And the newspapers were full of similar tales about attacks by Dobies that were brought up by their owners to fight. In the decades since a simple walk through my tract has brought Dobies out to hurl themselves at their fences, or in one case, hurl itself at the sliding glass door fronting the street. Even though I crossed to the other side of the street in a useless attempt to not aggravate it, I used to wonder at what point that dog was going to jar the door out of its tracks. I finally left a note for the owners, who never seemed to be home.

Then it was Rottweilers that became the big fad in aggressive dogs.

Pit Bulls. They have strong jaws -- as a neighbor lad boasted to me when his pit bull almost killed my Sheltie a decade ago. Currently the breed seems to be the choice of an awful lot of jerks who like to threaten other people.

I'm sure that all DU Pit Bulls are old softies who just want a tummy rub, but the rural pits and inner city pits who kill grandmas and toddlers and sometimes grown men -- can't we just have them put down without insisting they can all be rehabbed? Can't we just make sure their owners are prosecuted for negligent homicide or grievous bodily harm? I just don't have that much sympathy for the latest fad in aggressive dogs.

Hekate

[eowyn_of_rohan]

205. My dog was also attacked by a pit bull, in an off-leash dog park

We'd taken him to that park countless times, and while there had been incidents of aggressive behavior by other breeds on occasion, they were NOTHING compared to the vicious and relentless manner in which this pit bull came at my dog. It was a nightmare, and if we hadn't kicked at and pulled this monster off, our dog would have been killed. Same dog attacked another dog there, several weeks later, and it and its owner have since been banned from this and all local parks. What kind of person would take such a dangerous dog to a dog park and let it run loose?

[DrDan]

225. call whatever you like . . . here is the study

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

Just because you do not like the message, do not bash the messenger.

btw - you have first-hand knowledge of only one dog attack, and you question others posts?

[Maine-ah]

283. my cousin got bit by his golden retriever

sometimes kids do stupid stuff to dogs that will cause them to bite the child. Things like....oh, jumping on the dog while he was sleeping and scaring the crap out of the dog.

[Warpy]

91. I've only met one

I was standing in line at the bank and the woman behind me had the ugliest mutt I'd ever seen, all jaws, on a leash. He got up and took a sniff of my leg, and gave a shy tail wag, so I petted him, got my hand licked, lots of enthusiastic tail wags. I asked her what kind of dog he was and she looked at me like I was either brave or stupid and said he was a pit bull.

So yes, they can be real sweethearts. They can also be unpredictable, as families with young kids have found out to their sorrow. They need to be restrained, either on a leash or in a fenced yard.

People need to understand the breed and make sure their kids are old enough to cope, at least school age. They also know the dogs need to be restrained so they're not a danger to strangers.

Anybody who lets them roam free needs to be restrained, themselves.

[superconnected]

107. awe, what an adorable fur baby!

[Marrah_G]

112. They are powerful though

And there were a few of them. They wouldn't have to be "taught" to fight to have done this. All that would be needed is an owner that is ignorant about the breed.

Your dog reacts when you say ow because he knows he is NOT the Alpha dog. That's how it should be. Often you have clueless owners who let the animals run the house and the dog believes he is the Alpha and the pack follows him.

If the dogs were some small breed their alpha behavior might be seen as cute. Bt with a very large and strong dog that same behavior becomes threatening and often deadly.

I truly believe that all large breed owners should have to take a class and all large breed dogs should be required to go through training.

In most cases it is the fault of an ignorant owner rather then a malicious one.

[DrDan]

9. leashed? these dogs should be eradicated!

I know - I know ----- "it's not the dogs, it the owners" - I have heard this crap too long. These dogs are dangerous and should not be allowed anywhere near others. Same for Rottweilers.

And please, no anecdotal evidence about how great and loving one's personal pit-bull pet is. That is simply denial.

[bitchkitty]

14. It's true that some dogs have the capacity to be

more dangerous than others, but no one breed should be singled out as dangerous. That's like saying that because most serial killers are white men in their 20s, then you should avoid all white men in their 20s.

It's not the dogs, it's the owners - that's not crap, it's truth.

[DrDan]

17. I agree - let's not single them out - include Rottweilers . . .

Pit bull owners are like Hummer owners - trying to compensate for a personally-perceived gap of testosterone.

These dogs have the potential for harm - regardless of their owners and regardless of their training.

They are a danger to society and we should work actively to remove them.

[bitchkitty]

26. Yep, I can picture Spanky, Alfalfa and Buckwheat

trying to compensate. As well as anyone who ever bought an RCA, or whatever company had the pit bull in their commercial...

A few years back, it was Dobermans. Before that, German Shepherds. then Rotweilers, now Pit Bulls.

All large animals have the potential for harm. Just because there are no laws in place to prevent the type of people you describe from owning dogs (there should be) does not mean that all pit bulls or all rots or dobies are dangerous. To believe that this is so is not only silly, it is intellectually lazy.

[DrDan]

29. and to believe otherwise is juvenile denial

[bahrbearian]

39. Actually The Victrola dog is a Rat Terrier

a fat one at that.

[DrDan]

52. "all large animals have the potential for harm"??????

not anywhere close to pit bulls and rottweilers.

When was the last time you saw mention of a cow attack, or sheep, or lamb, or deer, or horse, and on and on and on.

Pit bulls are unusually aggressive, very strong, ignore pain, will not give up, hunt in packs . . . This makes them extremely dangerous, particularly with children and adults with less strength. We need NONE of them sharing our neighborhoods.

[lisby]

72. So do you also advocate a Final Solution

for any species that has the potential to harm? 'Cause that's a lot of killing, man.

[DrDan]

81. I did not say to kill them . . . man

[RebelOne]

75. Let's not include Rottweilers. I own a Rottie

and she is nothing but a big baby and doesn't have a mean bone in her body. This is my second Rottie and my first one was a sweetheart also. I stick by the mind set that it depends upon the owners whether a dog is going to be vicious.

[Recursion]

161. Rotts are the breed most likely to attack people, though...

Then again, I'd imagine half of the people who are attacked by rotts call the dogs attacking them "pit bulls".

[depakid]

259. From the SMH today: Family rottweiler kills newborn in her cot

A NEWBORN girl whose father is in hospital being treated for a brain tumour was mauled to death by the family's rottweiler dog at their Melbourne home.

A team of paramedics tried to resuscitate the nine-week-old girl for more than 90 minutes yesterday but she died before they could take her to hospital.

The baby's mother, who ran the infant to her next-door neighbour to get help, travelled to a Melbourne hospital last night to break the news to her husband
............

A neighbour, Tina Clasby, said her family had been frightened of the dogs because they barked wildly when people walked past the house. "The fence has been boarded up recently, so I think they were worried about them," she said.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/family-rottweiler-kills-newborn-in-her-cot/2007/12/28/1198778703335.html

Both Rotss and Pits have dangerous proclivities- no doubt about it.

New South Wales finally had one mauling too many, and in 2005 decided that enough was enough:

Premier Bob Carr has announced a ban on pit bulls and other similar dogs in New South Wales.

Under a plan announced in Parliament it will be an offence to breed, sell, give away or acquire pit bulls, American pit bulls, Japanese tosas, Argentinian fighting dogs and Brazilian fighting dogs.

All current owners of the dogs will have to have them de-sexed once the new laws are passed. Mr Carr says while the new laws are strong, the Government needed to go further.

"A pit bull is a killing machine on a leash and too often someone ends up in emergency after an encounter with one of these dogs," he said. The state's Local Government Minister will be charged with taking up the issue nationally at the next local government ministerial council.

The plan comes after five-year-old Jordan Wisby was mauled by a pit bull terrier on his way home from school last Friday.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200505/s1359021.htm

[toopers]

203. Name something that doesn't have the "potential for harm".

Just about anything can be used to harm someone else, if used incorrectly.

[DrDan]

239. if you do not see a distinction between pit bulls and

"something that doesn't have the potential for harm", then we have nothing to discuss.

[DWilliamsamh]

30. I've got news for you....

I stay away from Pit Bulls and white men in their twenties. It's just common sense.

[Selatius]

18. At this point, I'm only concerned as far as enforcement of existing law here. If they...

violated the leash law, they're to be prosecuted regardless of the breed of the dog, and if subsequent charges are filed because of the death of a person, then so be it up to and including negligent homicide. If the dog were a golden retriever, the same concern I raised would still apply. The eradication of a particular kind of a dog is another issue I consider beyond the scope of my concern here.

[DrDan]

20. just another example of how skewed some of the laws and subsequent punishements are

a pit bull kills someone - the owner may get a fine - almost guaranteed no jail-time

I guess that is to keep the jail space open for those darned marijuana users . . . .

[Selatius]

23. At this point, I believe the owners are in for far more than a fine. This is likely to be...

far worse for the owners because a person was killed. Now enforcement of the law must not only include violation of the leash law but also issues of gross negligence, which may include up to negligent homicide.

[demigoddess]

180. the heirs of the person killed should sue and recover damages. I think if there is to

be no criminal penalty they should pay damages. But some people whose dogs killed, I believe, were sent to jail. HOOORay!!!!

[Bigmack]

43. "Vicious Golden Retriever"...

I just can't get my mind around that concept.

I know you're just using the golden as an example, but it does bring up an interesting question.

If there is no such thing as a "vicious" breed of dog... how can there be a "totally non-vicious" breed like the Golden?

[Lyric]

48. Goldens can get mean and aggressive too

if they aren't altered and properly socialized. *Any* dog can become aggressive. I think that the whole "Pit Bulls are aggressive dogs and should be banned" concept is a classic example of people mistaking correlation with causation. I'd dig a little deeper and examine the type of person who chooses the Pit Bill breed over another breed--chances are, there's a greater percentage of Pit Bull owners who either purposely train their dogs to be aggressive, or tacitly allow them to become aggressive because they either don't know how to handle a large breed dog properly, or they think "protectiveness" (aggression) is "normal" for big dogs like Pit Bulls. It's kinda like the myth that red automobiles are more prone to car wrecks. It isn't the color of the car--it's the personality of the person who *chooses* a red car over all the other colors.

The absolute worst mistakes that anyone can make with a dog are (1) allowing even the slightest hint of dominance or aggressiveness to go unchecked, (2) failing to socialize their dog well with both people and other dogs, and (3) using physical violence (like a rolled-up newspaper smack) as a discipline technique. I've been training my dogs myself for my whole life, and every time I've seen someone else's dog became aggressive, it was due to one of those three things. And it isn't just a "big dog" problem either--one of my neighbors had a Bichon Frise that was the terror of her household. That cute little ball of white fluff would damn near bite your hand off if you made the mistake of sitting in "her" chair or touching one of "her" dishes.

People need to realize that dogs are not toys, or "background scenery", and they need every bit as much attention as a human child. They have strong wills and a pack mentality, and you *have* to be able to establish and maintain your dominance in the pack in order to get them to behave well. With some dogs, it's easy--they have submissive personalities and are perfectly content to be the omega, even going so far as to adopt that position with little or no encouragement from you. But with other dogs (IMHO, the best ones) it's a constant challenge, and they never let you forget it. The smartest, brightest, most emotive dogs are usually the ones who challenge you the most. They're also the ones who are the most worthy companions.

Sorry this turned into a ramble. I just sincerely love dogs, and I'd make a living of working with them and training them if I had the money and space to do so. :)

[Bigmack]

58. Perhaps the reason why...

you hear of so few mean goldens is because the people who buy goldens are laid-back people looking for a laid-back dog.

Perhaps the reason we hear of so many mean Pits is because so many of the people who buy them are assholes looking for an asshole dog!

I've never seen a mean golden, and I have some experience. I've known some territorial/protective lab bitches, but 99.9% of the time they're just lovable lugs.

I have however "bearsprayed" a couple of pit crosses while riding my bike, and even pulled my 9mm once.

We've always used the "dominant Alpha male and female" with our dogs of all breeds, and have wonderful results.

An ill-trained Bichon is one thing... a pain in the ass. An ill-trained Pit is a deadly menace to the community and should be treated as such.

[JackintheGreen]

88. I can't make a living off dogs myself

but we've fostered ever since we bought our first house. And I've seen that *all* breeds can be aggressive because all breeds can be mistreated or abused by bad owners.

Our first foster was a border collie who mangled my arm pretty badly when I tried to leash her outside one day. She had never shown any aggression before that and had been a total sweetie. A very very thin sweetie.

As a dog foster we usually only see the worst (survivable) results of dog ownership. If they cannot be re-socialized, they usually have to be put down.

[Greylyn58]

249. Neither can I. My boy Sheridan would never hurt a fly

however, as someone else has stated, any dog can be made vicious, even a Golden if enough abuse is heaped on it.

Unfortunately, there are evil, nasty people in this world that exploit the protection and guarding instincts of Pits, Dobies, Rotties and then turn them loose on the unsuspecting public. They turn them into lethal weapons and when they hurt someone, claim no knowledge of how they got that way.

Also some stupid people breed these dogs for these bad instincts and it makes the situation worse.

[jwirr]

69. When I was growing up in Iowa any dog that bit someone was put

down and the owner was liable for damages. It seems like a good law. We have a pit bull/boxer mix and she is gentle - one of the problems with getting rid of such a dog is being afraid to give them away because of the kind of people who might want to exploit them. We have her spayed and we will put her down before we will give her away.

[XemaSab]

141. I think you have to allow for the circumstances though

I was bit by a dog a few years ago...

I was walking through a parking lot and I got too close to the truck the two dogs were in, and they jumped out and surrounded me. One of them, a cattle dog, totally goosed me on the ass and left a massive bruise. I was scared shitless because I didn't know what the dogs were going to do, but after the one dog bit me it totally slunk off in SHAME.

The owners came out and they were a nice liberal couple from Berkeley, and they were SO apologetic and scared I'd sue them, or demand that the dog be put down.

I was mad about it, and told them to secure their dogs in the future (which I'm sure they did), but other than that, no harm, no foul. :shrug:

[conservdem]

215. I generally agree with you regarding pit bulls.

They are like tigers and belong in zoos. They are worse the leaving a loaded gun around because they have a mind of their own.

Put a few zoos and put down the rest. Criminal penalties for the owners after a child is dead does not fix the problem.

I thought this before I was attacked by a pit bull that was supposedly a great and gentle pet.

[boilinmad]

255. I totally agree.....

....im so sick and tired of people saying..."Oh, but mine is such a sweetheart, mine would NEVER hurt anybody." With all the breeds of dogs available, why would anyone want to live with these ticking timebombs. In L.A., as in any other urban area, im sure, theyre a sign of machismo, displayed by idiots who cant brandish a gun around so they choose the next best thing, a killer on a leash. Not the dogs fault? Oh well, bummer. If I had a nickle for everytime ive seen a news report of someone talking about their grandmother whose arms have been chewed off while she slept, or a baby who's been chewed up, saying they never thought that such a thing would happen..."but mine was such a sweetheart !!!!"

[Enrique]

5. it's maul madness in California

tigers, pit bulls, what's next?

[Double T]

6. Pit Bulls are one of the sweetest dog breeds; unfortunately some of their owners.........

were NEVER properly trained and should be caged for the dog's safety.

[Quakerfriend]

12. They can be very sweet, and they CAN BE very dangerous.

Some do choose to raise them to be aggressive.

But, these dogs were originally breed to be fighting dogs. Unfortunately, they can become very violent without being 'raised wrong'.

My beautiful 26 yo cousin, who is gentle, sweet and kind to all dogs was mauled by her own pit. She needed lots of stitches on her face.
She still has and loves the dog.

I, personally, want to see these banned. I don't even want to be on a walk and run into one on a leash. And, I love all dogs.


Just my opinion.

[Thothmes]

19. The same can be said for almost any breed of Dog

[Guaranteed]

277. Yeah, watch out for my Attack Pug.

And I can take on even the nastiest, meanest chihuahua.

Capability enters into the equation as well, not just temperament.

[Double T]

33. Thanks for your opinion and story; any dog attack is horrific.

[Zorra]

41. I'm a total dog lover. The pit bull is my least favorite breed.

Every pit bull I have encountered has been hyper.

My friends cat was almost killed the other day by an aggro pit bull.

[Arkansas Granny]

62. Your opinion is pretty much the same as mine. I have met some

pit bulls who were wonderful dogs, but I have met many more that were not and while I am quite sure that most of that was due to their environment, I believe that some of it has to do with breeding. Some dogs are bred to track, some are bred to retrieve, some are bred to herd animals. Pit bulls have been bred for many generations to fight other animals and I don't think you can train that trait out of them. While I realize that any breed of dog can be agressive and bite, the sheer power of a pit bulls jaws make them more dangerous than most other breeds. I will never own one.

[judaspriestess]

94. it is a genetic inclination in them now, I have to agree

maybe not so long ago it was not. I recently began watching the dog whisperer on the national geographic channel and he will speak of how a dog breed is bred to do one thing and over time it becomes encoded in their genetic system.
Unfortunately for the pit bull, its the practices of stupid humans and breeding them to fight which is making the dog more and more aggressive over time.

They were a pack of dogs and if the leader is a crazy aggressive dog then they all join in.

The owner of those dogs should be charged with negligent homicide and quite frankly should be euthanized right along with the dogs. (Ok I'm being extreme but because of their stupidity, someone is dead and the dogs are dead also)

I feel sorry for the breed and how they are being abused by many humans.

RIP

[superconnected]

117. Not likely.

I'm sure there's more to the story about where that dog came from.

http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_02_06_a_pitbull.html

Sometimes dogs do go off, but there is no frequency of one breed doing it over another without owners who taught them to be mean.

[judaspriestess]

168. sorry don't buy it if alcoholism is genetic

for example then why can't aggression also be genetic. Over a period of time it will be an issue.
Thanks for the info though.

[superconnected]

178. It can be genetic but it isn't with pitbulls.

If pitbulls are genetically predisposed to attacking people why weren't there any attacks before the late 1980's?

Why where dobermens the most common dog to kill people in the 1970's and why hasn't there been a case of dobermans killing in the last two decades?

Why are rotweillers suddenely killing and attacking more people now than pitbulls?

It goes back to the owner and what they turn the dog into and what the most popular dog at the time to make mean is. I've posted a very factual artical on this all over this thread.

That article includes the profile of dogs that attack and dogs that kill. The dogs that attack and or kill, regardless of breed get traced back to owners who are at least anti-social people who haven't socialized their dogs to other people and often want their dog to be mean. 1/4th of all dogs that kill people have owners who particpated in illegal dog fighting. No breed is above another on attacking and killing when you take out the factor of an owner who made the dog anti-social. The dog breed that attacks and kill changes by the decade because of the popular breed to choose to make attack dogs changes.

The article deals with recoded cases and breeds because the police have been keeping records for decades.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

209. Pit bulls are genetically predisposed to attacking other dogs

relentlessly, because that is what they have been bred for. From a dog breed info site: Their natural aggressive tendencies are toward other dogs and animals, not people. However, if they are properly socialized, they will not even be aggressive with them. Most people are unfortunately too lazy to make any effort to learn about, train, or properly socialize their dogs. That goes for ALL breeds, but an untrained, unsocialized pit bull is like a deadly weapon. This same dog breed info website rates degree of dog aggression of different breeds: breedhttp://www.dogbreedinfo.com/combativeness.htm#W

They show the Yorkshire Terrier in the same category as the Stafforshire and Pit Bull Terriers. But other breed characteristics of pit bulls, including physical strength, high pain tolerance, et al, make them potentially much more dangerous.

As I wrote up-thread, I have been taking my dog to an off-leash dog park for years. We have encountered all kinds and breeds of dogs. There have been some frightening incidents with other breeds but the one with the pit bull was in a class of its own, while I have NEVER had a problem with an Airedale, Wire-fox terrier or many of the other breeds also supposed to possess high degree of aggression toward other dogs.

[bitchkitty]

199. Great article - bookmarking!

I'd advise everyone to read it, it might change some minds about the cause of fatal dog attacks.

[DrDan]

13. dog poop

[Double T]

35. Get to really know the breed; YOU might change your mind.

[Codeine]

68. I've gotten to know the breed quite well

and I believe that as a whole the breed needs to be euthanized. They are a menace.

[Jacobin]

24. retrievers are bred to retrieve and do so naturally

pit bulls are bred to fight and do so naturally.

while it is true that with proper training, they can be taught to act in a way that is not natural to the way they are bred, their breeding can overwhelm their training unpredictably, and that can cause problems.

Nature? Nurture? Yeah, they both have a role.

[eagler]

63. Yes. these were very sweet dogs. their sweetness has been showing quite often.

[tinrobot]

254. Nobody has been mauled to death by a pack of poodles...

Just saying.

[Recursion]

97. Which "breed"

Pit bull is not a recognized AKC breed AFAIK. It's a name that gets applied to American bull terriers, American staffordshire terriers, and a whole bunch of other breeds and mixes based on who is scared of their appearance.

[Codeine]

123. Such malarkey.

The American Pit Bull Terrier is recognized by the UKC and the American Dog Breeders Association. Additionally, many UKC dogs who are registered as Pits are also registered with the AKC as Staffies. We know what kind of dogs we're talking about here.

[Recursion]

144. If you want to go on a crusade to limit the use of the term "pit bull" to those breeds, go for it

Until the media (and legsilators) actually limit their use of "pit bull" to American Pit Bull Terriers, you're equivocating.

"Pit bull" means "dog that scares suburban voters".

[Codeine]

147. "Pit bull" has an actual meaning.

I limit my conversations to that meaning. If other people confuse the term that's not my problem or concern.

edit: But you will now admit that there is, indeed, such a breed, yes?

[Recursion]

150. No

There is a breed called the "American Pit Bull Terrier"

There is not a breed called the "Pit Bull"

[Codeine]

Good god.

That's lame. Does the fact that some people call their Doberman Pinscher just a "Doberman" invalidate that breed as well?

[Recursion]

155. If the media were using "doberman" to describe a wider variety of dogs, yes

The fact is "pit bull" is used to describe just about any large terrier or mastiff.

[Codeine]

158. But media ignorance

does not mean that an entire breed of dog is a mythical creature. There are actually pit bulls, dude. You know this.

[Recursion]

163. I brought up "assault weapons" originally because I think the analogy stands

"Pit bull" is close enough to "American Pit Bull Terrier" that people don't notice that media reports and proposed laws completely leave that association behind and address a large number of breeds that aren't even terriers.

It's a lot like how "assault weapon" is close enough to "assault rifle" that people don't notice that media reports and proposed laws completely leave that association behind and address a large number of weapons that aren't even rifles.

It's two similar cases of bad laws being based on equivocal use of hotbutton terms.

[Recursion]

149. "Pit bull" is not a recognized breed

Glad you agree

[Codeine]

152. Huh?

Pit bull is a shorthand for American Pit Bull Terrier. Two closely related breeds (one in fact is the same breed distinguished only by whether it's registered with the UKC or AKC, and some are actually registered with both) are close enough to also be considered such.

You're equivocating in the silliest possible way.

Now, do some people consider any scary dog a pittie? Sure. Does that mean the breed doesn't actually exist? Of course not.

[StarryNite]

244. It's in the breeding

You most likely wouldn't use an Irish Setter as a guard dog and most likely wouldn't use a Pit Bull to hunt. Pit Bulls are bred to be aggressive. Just like Irish Setters are bred for hunting and Bloodhounds are bred for tracking. That doesn't meant that every Pit Bull is a killer or every Irish Setter is a good hunting dog. But don't deny the breeding aspect of it. Breeders spend a lot of money and time perfecting their breeds to bring out certain qualities in them. Not all dogs are alike. Not in looks or behavior.

[boobooday]

7. That is so tragic

There were three pit bulls circling my house last week. I refused to leave until they were out of sight.

[hollowdweller]

10. Shame the lady wasn't carrying a gun.

People around here fight them and they break out of their yards and houses and attack people all the time.

[Annces]

15. I don't know how mailmen make it on their routes

I have been barked at so many times on daily walks. Some people enjoy seeing their dogs threaten you. And then there are those leashes that are like strings that go 50 feet long.

[Quakerfriend]

16. So, true about the leashes. And, I can't tell you how many

times I have seen owners of pits 'walking them on a leash'....with the leash dragging along the ground and the dog jogging 10-20 yards in front of the owner.

I think it is just an 'in your face' power monger type of attitude.

[EFerrari]

22. If a dog is walking out ahead of it's owner, you already know

that owner is not in charge of that dog. The dog is leading, not obeying.

[EFerrari]

21. People are too stupid to leash their dogs.

I've started carrying a stick when I walk with Kid because we're going to meet at least two off leash dogs and I have no way of knowing if they're safe or not. All I can think is to have something to jam in a mouth that isn't my arm. It takes the fun and relaxation right out of a walk to have to be vigilant all the time.

And WTF, why are dogs being allowed to wander around in packs? That's trouble waiting to happen. My mom has two Lab mixes. They are sweet and gentle and would never hurt a person. But, if they are let out together on the ranch, they chase and kill any small animal they can because they are acting like a pack.

[FarrenH]

25. I don't know why some need to diss all pit bull owners

most of them are just loving pet owners who aren't trying to compensate for anything. I used to own one and it certainly wasn't because I was trying to compensate for anything (we got her from the SPCA cos she needed a loving home).

That said, I agree with the sentiment that they're a dangerous breed. Their quirky, endearing habits like barking at blank spots on the wall are often due to scizophrenia, according to my vet. Even pit bulls who've been with the same caring owner for years can be unpredictable. I've seen a pit bull start growling and advancing on her pregnant owner who absolutely adored her and treated her like a princess, for no reason.

Germany has banned the breed, along with several others, for good reason. There's no need to terminate people's much loved pets, but they should stop breeding them. They're unstable and they're dangerous. Apart from that, what is seen as quirky, loveable behaviour is sometimes the dog freaking out because its hearing and seeing things that aren't there.

It can't be nice being inside a disturbed bullie's head. Bullies are bred to fight, as someone's already mentioned and its just plain dumb to believe that you can just love that out entirely of all of them. Why breed dangerous animals with a predisposition to psychological illness?

[bitchkitty]

27. Not all bred to fight -

they're originally a working breed. Bulldogs...wonder where that name came from?

Last year I was walking my beagle when out of nowhere came a furious golden retriever - he did the canine equivalent of wrestling my dog to the ground. My dog slipped his leash and ran under a car and the stupid owner finally pulled his head out and called his damned dog inside. BAN ALL GOLDEN RETRIEVERS!

Here's an interesting article on Pit Bulls from Wikipedia:

Positive press

Some work in hospitals and care facilities as certified therapy dogs, many are well-loved family pets, and some have even saved people's lives. There are many instances of pit bulls being productively employed by U.S. Customs <69>, as police K9s.<70>

Often pit bulls have been reported to "adopt" other species of animals (such as kittens or squirrels), which some attribute to the breed nickname, "nanny dog".<71> It is more widely accepted that the breed nickname, "nanny dog" comes from Pit Bull type dogs' innate love and tolerance of children.

A rescued pit bull called Popsicle is a United States Customs dog, and is famous for sniffing out one of the biggest cocaine busts in history. <72>

In February, 2006, New Yorker magazine writer Malcolm Gladwell published an article surveying the research on pit bulls which concluded that legal attempts to ban the breed were both crude and unnecessary. <73>

In February 2007 a pit bull named "Chief" rescued his family of humans from a spitting cobra by dashing in front of the attacking snake and taking the deadly bite himself. Chief subdued the snake but died of the venom 30 minutes later. <74>

In April 2007, columnist John Canzano of The Oregonian newspaper wrote a favorable piece on Hollywood, the pit bull that formerly belonged to NBA player Qyntel Woods. <75> Hollywood, renamed Stella, was adopted by a loving owner and reformed from a fighting dog to a lap dog.

edited to add link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull#Misconceptions

[AngryAmish]

50. They are called bulldogs because they were used for bullbaiting

"The term "bulldog" was first used around 1568<1> and might have been applied to various ancestors of modern bulldog breeds.

In the 1600s, bulldogs were used for bullbaiting (as well as bearbaiting), a wagering sport popular in the 17th century in which trained bulldogs leapt at a bull lashed to a post, latched onto its snout and attempted to suffocate it. <2>" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldog#History>

Now what is commonly known as a pitbull is mostly an ad hoc breed bred for certain attributes. These dogs mostly were working dogs in the sense that their work was fighting other dogs. The traits useful in a dog fight were selected for: General strength, bite strength, animal aggression and most importantly "gameness". This is the willingness to stick to a task (this case fighting/attacking) notwithstanding outside stimuli like distraction and pain. Actually, they are called pitbull terriers. Terriers are known for their gameness, their manic energy and devotion to task. Think Yorkies, Jack Russel terriers, etc.

These breed tendencies are indeed just tendencies. Not every pitbull has them. But most do. And training can modify both bad and good instincts. Nothing is 100% owners fault nor are they entirely blameless for bad behavior.

One good breed tendencies is pitbulls generally were not bred to be human aggressive. It would not do to have a fighting dog suddenly turn on its owner because of the damage it could do. Unfortunately, not every breed tendency is passed down to every dog. So when a human aggressive, powerful and game pitbull shows up, then you see mauled people.

[Critters2]

189. Bulldog means they were used to bait bulls, to

get a bull's attention to distract it in the slaughter line, so it could be killed. This took a strong, mean dog. Bull baiting in time grew into a sport, with dogs placed in a fighting pit with a bull. Eventually, England, where this "sport" was practiced, outlawed it. So, dog owners trained the dogs to fight one another.

That's where the name came from. What did you think it did?

[bitchkitty]

198. I thought it came from exactly that -

handling bulls. I wasn't aware that it was turned into a sport though.

[Codeine]

70. There is very much a need to terminate

people's "much loved pets." The woman who bled to death in agony would be chief among those reasons. Horrible, horrible animals and stupid, stupid owners.

[Maraya1969]

110. Scizophrenia? Now that scares me. And makes me sad.

[Gman]

28. Every Pit Bull in the country should be shot on sight

the breed needs to be eradicated. I've never seen even one that was worth a damn.

[Stuckinthebush]

31. I have

and I'm not a dog guy. Wouldn't have a dog if you paid me.

That being said, I don't think the problem is with the breed but with the owners. Now, I understand that some lines are bred for aggressiveness. That's idiotic.

I have a colleague who has had two of the most docile pit bulls you've ever seen. He checks out the breeders and makes sure they aren't breeding aggressive animals. Then, he takes complete charge of the training and makes sure the dogs are well trained. He also keeps the dogs on leashes (like all dogs should be).

[Lasher]

32. Look how cute!

As you can see, some grizzlies can be docile pets when they are well trained. You wouldn't mind if your neighbor had a couple of these running around in the back yard would you?

[Stuckinthebush]

34. Now that is just silly

I stand by my statement.

Personally, I find all dogs annoying as pets. But I will stand up for the rights of dog owners to own the little fuckers if they are responsible and train them well.

[Lasher]

37. I hope you got the point all the same.

A given dog breed's characteristic behavior and size can not be legitimately brushed aside. And I don't want to be put in a position of having to decide if each of my neighbors trains their dogs, or pet grizzlies, well.

I admit it, I was being silly. But I was doing it on purpose.

[bitchkitty]

36. That's the key - the training.

My dog's playcare also has obedience classes and training for agility and obedience competitions. Jewel (the owner's pit bull and my dog's fantasy woman) has won many competitions and has had lots of great press.

If I ever own a house I want to add a pit bull to the pack. If I do, he or she will be trained at Dogtown (plug for Anne Marie - a dog whisperer beyond compare) in Gresham, Oregon!

[RebelOne]

38. No, they should not be bred any longer.

I do not advocate shooting them. I owned 2 pit bulls and they were the sweetest dogs you would ever want to know. And my son owns 7 pits that are all great dogs.

[Dervill Crow]

276. That's exactly my feeling.

We have a "pibble" because my daughter's APBT had an unplanned pregnancy the first time she went into her season. My daughter was extremely careful about the people she let adopt the dogs. They are wonderful pets, but some of them end up in heartbreaking situations.

[MadHound]

40. Then you haven't seen many dogs at all, have you?

Your ignorance and bigotry concerning this breed is just fucking disgusting. Did you know that pits were recommended as the perfect family dog for years and decades by the AKC? Pits are like any other dogs, raise them to be vicious and they will be, raise them to be gentle and docile, and they will be.

Pits are just the latest in the line of "bad boy" dogs that assholes decide to raise. When I was a kid, German Shepards were the bad boy dog, yet I grew up with two. Dobermans and Rottweillers were the bad boys after that. Then came pits, yet I have owned and raised pits and pit mixes for the paste quarter century, and have had no problem.

What breed is most likely to bite? Statistically it is either poodles or cocker spaniels, depending on the year.

You really need to get to know a friendly pit, and despite your statement, I'm sure that there is somebody close by who owns one. Better yet, why don't you go down to the local animal shelter and adapt a pit puppy, raise it like you would any other dog, and you will be surprised and what a wonderful, loyal, friendly, gentle dog that you have.

But if you don't, if you want to continue to live with this sort of bigotry, keep it to yourself. If you, or the likes of you, come after my girl, you won't have to be worrying about the pit bull killing you, you'll have to worry about me, the owner.

[Gman]

47. I have a 115 lb. German Shepherd

and a Brittany/Cocker mix. I've yet to see a Pit that was worth a damn for anything other than destroying.

[MadHound]

127. Then like I said, you haven't been around many dogs,

And are severely ignorant concerning both pits and dogs in general. I've known, and know, plenty of pits and pit mixes that are worth much more than a damn, and in fact I would say they're worth much more than your damn hide. I've personally had a pit that saved my ass on more than one occasion, and then there is my sister's pit who took out two thieves trying to rip out her house. I've known pit mixes that have made wonderful service dogs, and loads of pits that are wonderful companion dogs.

Your hatred for this breed is the result of ignorance and buying into the media bullshit. Do you do this with people? Then perhaps you should stop doing it with dog breeds.

[Heywood J]

55. "Better yet, why don't you go down to the local animal shelter and adapt a pit puppy"

Uh, perhaps putting a puppy in the hands of someone who wants to shoot it might not be the best idea, regardless of the breed.


I'm in favor of the grandfathering and phasing out of the breed. After the mail carrier who had her ears ripped off and face horribly disfigured for life, the woman in San Francisco mauled by the neighbor's pit bulls, and the child who needed 500 stitches to close his wounds, these are not suitable animals to be kept as pets - especially not more than one at a time.

[Recursion]

100. Define "pit bull", for the purposes of your ban

I'm always curious to see what people mean by "pit bull".

[Codeine]

128. The American Pit Bull Terrier

as recognized by the UKC and ADBA. Functionally identical to the ACK-recognized breed called the American Staffordshire Terrier.

[Recursion]

134. So then not any of the following

Dogues
Cordobans
Corsos
Rottweillers (DC's "pit bull" ban got them for a while)
Bull mastiffs
American bulldogs

all of which I have seen called (and banned as) "pit bulls"?

[Codeine]

139. I've never heard of. . .

a Rottie, a Cane Corso or a mastiff being caught up in a pit bull ban, which is not to say it doesn't happen. I'm just refuting your assertion that APBTs aren't a breed.

Seriously, that's just weird; Corsos and mastiffs aren't even terriers. Molossers are quite different.

[LeftyMom]

101. The dogs in San Francisco were Pressa Canarios.

[MadHound]

129. Another one who buys into the bullshit and media hype

Without engaging their critical thinking skills.

First of all, the dog attack that you're referring to wasn't done by pits, but by pressa canarios, an entirely different breed of dog. But funny you should mention them, since if we banned pits as you and so many other foolish people want, they would probably become the next "bad boy" dog who would wind up mauling and killing people after being badly handled by ignorant bloodthirsty owners. It isn't the breed, it is the people who own and train these dogs, don't you fucking get that yet?

And yes, you can bring up all the horror stories that you want concerning pits, and I can bring up examples of other dogs doing the same, such as the Pomeranian who killed a baby, or the scar that I got from my grandmother's pug. But my question is who the fuck are you and what the hell kind of experience do you have in regards to this matter. Thanks, but I kinda tend to believe the AKC when they state that pits are excellent family dogs, and my own experience as a vet assistant, shelter volunteer and owner of many animals rather than some anonymous poster on a chatboard who can't even keep their horror stories straight.

Perhaps you too need to correct your ignorance, either through pursuit of literature or adapting a pit pup. Raise it like you would any other dog, and you will wind up with a fine pet.

Or would you rather remain a slave to the sensationalist media?

[dropkickpa]

142. The san fran mauling was NOT pit bulls

They were Presa Canario's, completely different breed (about 2-2.5x the size of a pitbull, origin is Canary Islands). Not to mention they were abused by their insane owners (including suspicion of bestiality from letters from the owners to a prison inmate).

Can you identify the pit bull? http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

I've seen labradors identified as pit bulls by the media, take any "pit bull" story with a very large grain of salt with regard to whether the breed is correctly identified. I worked in a large urban shelter that had TONS of pit bulls, many pulled from suspected fighting operations included. I'll tell you, in my experience dealing with the most abused specimens you'd see of this breed, I'd trust a lot of them before I'd trust other breeds.

[Madam Mossfern]

164. Thanks

I was looking for that site, but alas, had to leave for work.

[XemaSab]

157. FYI, the woman in San Francisco was NOT killed by pit bulls, but by presa canarios

Totally different, and WAY scarier. They weigh up to 130 lbs, versus about 50 lbs tops for a pit bull.

[flvegan]

44. Brilliant.

What a cutie pie you are.

[B3Nut]

49. Some people are simply impervious to reason and logic.

Being a longtime pibble fancier (and could care less about "compensating" for whatever...what a lame and specious dig, can't these people come up with anything original for once? Freud isn't the infallible god some still think he is, after all...) I've learned this the hard way. Some people refuse to be educated...so I just let 'em stew in their own ignorance. Life's too short, and this shit gets old fast.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[superduperfarleft]

53. I wouldn't take him seriously.

It's amazing how the most docile person can turn into a tough-guy jackass on the internets. Must be poor training. Or maybe it's just the breed.

[ramapo]

46. Don't be an idiot

sorry...this goes with the shoot all pit bulls on sight post

[Plucketeer]

66. Laugh-worthy

There was the post about poodles and cockers being most likely to bite. Isn't that reASSuring? So, how many times are folks attacked and mauled to death by poodles and spaniels??? :dunce:

Owners should be responsible? Yeah - so should gang members and burglars and rapists and bank robbers and.... after all, it's not the fault of the weapons they use to perpetrate crimes - it's the user's errant ways that caused the damage.
If gang members didn't have guns, they'd resort to performing drive-by bow & arrow or knife attacks. But them just CARRYING a gun in their belt's no threat! :crazy:

[lisby]

77. What else should we kill while we're at it?

I'm sure there's loads of other breeds that need a good extermination.


:banghead:

[Gman]

93. Fuzzy little rabbits would be a good start!

LOL! :evilgrin:

[newburgh]

51. My experience with pit bulls has all been bad...

I don't understand why there's all this defending of this breed. You can say the same thing about guns- it depends on who's holding one. However, it's the people who are using them for ill purposes/mistreat them who allow them to run around without leashes. All pit bulls without leashes should be shot. period. I have a large property in an urban area. I can't even let my cats out as we have errant pit bulls running around who have threatened me on my own property- even with their owners right next to them. This is the one instance I believe a gun can be a good thing...

[superduperfarleft]

54. You shouldn't be letting your cats out anyway, especially in an "urban area." n/t

[Bridget Burke]

217. Well, I've known a couple of sweet pit bulls.

Shall we trade anecdotes?

By the way--don't let your cats out. They will live longer & healthier lives as inside cats. Although cars & disease are worse threats than dogs.

If you've got pit bulls on your property, along with their threatening owners, call the cops.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

218. Some people don't appreciate other people's pets running loose, either

... Why do cat owners think they can let their damn pets run around other people's property? I am sick of them stalking around killing birds in my yard, and don't appreciate the scratches on my dog's nose, caused by a cat the other night! Dog AND cat owners: Keep your pets under control!

[entanglement]

56. Poor woman - Is there any hope that the negligent owners will face punishment?

[Wcross]

57. There ought to be a law- owners to be held criminally liable for their dogs actions.

The owner of these dogs should be charged with at least second degree murder. There should be exemptions if attacks occur on the owners property if the dogs are properly contained.

Some people mistakenly believe that Pitt bulls would make a good watch dog. This is the ultimate watch dog;


http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/filabrasileiro.htm

Of course you have to be a responsible dog owner to own a Fila. I do not own one because I have no need of a watchdog that will attack intruders. I have homeowners insurance for losses when I am not here. I have six small dogs that bark if a stranger approaches & a means to defend myself if needed. It works for me.

[Xeolyte]

59. Wake Up Pit People

“Punish the deed and not the breed”. If it were not so tragic, it would be funny. The Pit People keep spouting this. What do these people expect? These dogs are specifically bred for aggressive behavior and “gameness”, or the willingness to fight to the death. If they aren’t “game”, they won’t get the APBS’s seal of approval. Below is the definition of gameness.

“Gameness--The exact definition of "gameness" varies greatly depending upon whom you ask. However, most Pit Bull fanciers can agree that this is the single most important trait the APBT possesses, and without the gameness, the dog is just a shell of what it should be. In the most general sense of the term, gameness can be described as "an unwillingness to give up, even under the most difficult of circumstances and despite the threat of death."

Pit Bulls are loaded guns. A few weeks ago a toddler in my town was killed by a Pit Bull

On every web page you find for Pit Bull enthusiasts, they always stipulate in bold letters the following rules:

1) Always keep your dog on leash in public places. NO EXCUSES!

2) Keep your dog properly confined – that means in your house, in a crate, in a secure/topped/locked kennel run, or behind a locked gate/fence (the fence should be a privacy fence and at least 6 ft tall with no way for your dog to climb over or dig under it).

3) There is NO EXCUSE for a loose dog. Prevent dog escapes before they happen by following rule # 2. One escape is too many. If your dog has escaped, find out why, and then fix the problem.

4) Don't leave your dog unattended where people or other animals can get to him.

5) Obedience train your dog so you can control him.

6) NEVER leave your Pit Bull unattended with other animals.

7) NEVER, EVER EVER leave your Pit Bull alone with small children or the elderly.

8) If your dog is showing signs of aggression (growling, nipping, biting, excessive mouthing or barking/lunging at people & other animals), get help from a professional NOW instead of later.

9) Do not allow your dog to run loose with children – running children can excite a dog and cause him to behave aggressively.

10) Do not allow your baby/toddler to crawl around on the floor or toddle around your dog. This could cause your dog to be defensive, nervous, or excite his play/prey drive and cause aggression.

11) Teach your children to leave the dog alone when he is eating or has an object.

12) Teach your children respect for dogs - no pulling hair or ears; no poking or hitting; no teasing; no yelling at or near dogs.

13) Never approach a dog without asking permission; approach slowly, sideways, and offer a closed fist; allow the dog to come to you. Pat the dog under the chin, or on the back; avoid reaching over or at a dog.

It’s patently obvious that Pit Bull breeders/owners agree that these dogs are lethal dangerous animals. In my own neighborhood I have been chased into my house by loose Pit Bulls. A child in my neighborhood had her small dog mauled by a Pit Bull that was so eager to get to the dog that it broke the chain it was on. Thankfully some neighbors were able to rescue the dog before it was killed.

All of you “Punish the deed and not the breed” people need to grow up and take a hard look at what you are perpetuating .. and please don’t say your dogs are safe with your babies and kids. Rule number 7. says it loud and clear that you are deluding yourself .. NEVER, EVER EVER leave your Pit Bull alone with small children or the elderly.

Xeolyte

[LeftyMom]

64. Okay, here's your first problem

Anybody who's talking about "gameness" is a dog fighter or wannabee. I know a fuck of a lot of people with well loved pit bulls and while I've heard them describe their dogs as "sweeties" "babies" and "big whiny puppies that never grow up" I have not once heard any of them describe their dogs as "game." So either your knowledge of the breed comes almost entirely from Animal Cops: Detroit, or you hang out with dog fighting assholes.

[Kingshakabobo]

76. Perhaps YOU and your "lovable sweetie pie" attitude are PART OF THE PROBLEM......

.....and not the solution. Other than your anecdotal "evidence" and blatant apologist attitude, it's quite clear YOU don't know what YOU are talking about.

This is from a Pit rescue site:

http://www.pbrc.net/faq.html
Gameness and Disposition

Q: What is gameness, and it true it guarantees good disposition towards humans?

A: Gameness is the strong will to never quit a task (in the case of the APBT, a dog fight) despite pain and exhaustion. While gameness does not guarantee good disposition, it does not rule it out either. People should not associate one with the other. These are two very different characteristics. Some game dogs may have good dispositions, some may not. Gameness may represent determination and courage, but doesn't assure stability, good disposition, or sound temperament. If breeders want to make sure the dogs they produce have a good temperament, they must breed with that trait in mind.

Unfortunately, many breeders breed game dogs with no regard for temperament, believing naively that gameness is all it takes to ensure stable dogs. Old-time dogmen (breeders of game-dogs) didn't have as many dogs in their yard as many breeders do today. They could, therefore, recognize a man-biter and remove it from the gene pool. However, not all old-timers culled man-biters. Some famous people-aggressive dogs were bred in the past because they were devastating in the pit. Their genes still run in the blood of the most popular gamebred bloodlines.

Today, some dogmen will knowingly breed a man-biter if they think it will provide them with pit champions and, because they often have several APBTs living on chains in their yard, they don't always know what temperament these dogs will have in real pet situations.

If you plan to acquire a gamebred dog, you should research bloodlines carefully and make sure the dog you select was not bred for its fighting abilities and gameness only, but for good disposition as well. We urge you, however, not to buy a gamebred dog. To breed game dogs, the breeder must fight the breeding stock. Only the dogs that do not quit a severe dog fight are bred. The others are eliminated. If you purchase a pup from a breeder that gametests, you support this cruel activity. Click here for more information about this.

[LeftyMom]

78. yeah. clearly I don't know the first thing about pit bulls.

Christ, it's not like my two closest friends and my boyfriend all do rescue (combined pibble census: 10) or anything.

I bow to your google-fu, clearly superior to actual firsthand knowledge of what the hell one's talking about. :eyes:

[Kingshakabobo]

83. One doesn't even need to be a "white belt" in google fu to know you are WRONG.

Maybe you should check with your "friends" before you spout off telling people they don't know what they are talking about.......since it is your "friends" that are the "experts" and not you.


That said, I know a couple shade-tree mechanics that like to fiddle with cars - that doesn't make them Master Certified Auto Technicians.

[LeftyMom]

84. okay. I'm sure flvegan will be along momentarily to tell you you're wrong.

He does rescue and is pretty widely regarded (ie- in the real world and not on the intertubes) as an expert on the care and rehabilitation of previously abused dogs.

[Kingshakabobo]

85. While we are waiting.....

But it is also valued by APBT owners who would never think of fighting their dogs. It is manifested in the can-do attitude of pit bulls toward any type of challenge, whether agility competitions, climbing up trees, or protecting their family against an armed attacker, etc. (Yes, check out Richard Stratton's books for photos of pit bulls actually climbing up the trunk of a big tree in order to nestle in the branches 15 feet off the ground.)

Generally speaking, a game dog is an emotionally stable, easy-going dog, especially good with kids. Gameness should not be confused with aggressiveness. There are plenty of aggressive dogs that are not game, and there are game pit bulls who are not aggressive toward other types of dogs. Aggressiveness will propell a dog into a fight but will only sustain him for the first few minutes. Gameness, on the other hand, will not necessarily make a dog fight-happy; but if the dog has no other choice but to fight, a game dog will fight until it wins or dies trying, and will keep going as long as necessary. Gameness is an inner quality of pit bulls. There is no way you can tell by looking at a pit bull whether it is deeply game or not. The only test--and for many years the main criterion for selecting a dog for breeding purposes--is actually fighting the dog to see how it stands up to other dogs that have likewise already proven their gameness in the pit. Dogs that are emotionally unstable, or that fear-bite human beings are generally not game. If you want a nice pit, you're generally better off getting one that has been game-bred. These dogs represent the truest exemplars of all the best qualities in the breed. Your questions about my post on the nature of "gameness" posed a couple of very good questions that I would like to try to answer.

[flvegan]

86. In my neck of the woods

both literally and topically, I don't know any rescue or shelter that discusses "gameness". We also don't use terms like "dogmen" either. I think that FAQ is irresponsible in that it promotes adopting a "game-bred" dog and how gameness is fantastic, but the only way to really test for "gameness" is to fight the dog.

Brilliant.

[Kingshakabobo]

89. Well, the topic exists.... and not just in fighting circles.

THAT'S my point.

Your, or the other poster's, ignorance of that fact doesn't make it go away.

Your lame attempt at attacking that author's character is noted. Perhaps you missed this quote:

If you purchase a pup from a breeder that gametests, you support this cruel activity.

The people that wrote those quotes seem like a pretty responsible rescue. Someone who promotes the "lovable sweetie pie never harm a fly" bullshit - not so much.

[flvegan]

90. I attacked nobody's character.

I stated that that particular sentiment wasn't well thought out.

Talk about lame attempts of attack...

[flvegan]

73. Sigh. Replace "pit bull" in your rules area with "dog"

and you'd have a decent set of instructions, there.

[superconnected]

120. facts

http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_02_06_a_pitbull.html

Right now rotweilers are the most likely to attack and kill you. Which animal is the most violent change as owners who want violent animals tastes changes.

Pitbulls were unheard of for even attacks until the late 1990s'. It used to be german shepherds that attacked/killed, then dobermans, The artical says now it's been decades since a doberman kill. Yet they were the most likely dog to attack/kill in the 70's.

The dogs that bite and kill have a profile which goes right back to the owner. The breed has shown to be inconsequential. It's what ever breed is the most popular at the time among owners who want mean dogs.

[Mark D.]

60. Passing Blame

We can blame owners all we want and site anecdotal evidence of how more gentle breeds can be mean. It doesn't matter. The fact is, packs of poorely trained beagles and collies are not maiming and killing like pit bulls and rotweilers. More than 1/2 of all fatal dog attacks are done by those two breeds. 1/3 of all by one breed, the pitbull. They have the capacity to do more harm when they are poorely trained. Poorely trained dogs of other breeds tend to be less vicious as a result. Poorely trained pit bulls almost always end up vicious.

I have a friend who told me of a family friend who works in the trauma unit at the local ER. The most common child dog bite victims that are brought in are NOT bitten by strange dogs that were poorely trained. It's pit bulls, and it's almost always a 'friendly wonderful family dog' that was supposedly 'well trained' and 'great with kids'. One day, that friendly tug of its tail equals justified attack on a defenseless child.

Here is a problem. They are no longer dogs, but status symbols, to many. Rotweillers in the suburbs and pit bulls in the city. Mainly it's the urban kids, and it's a macho symbol, not only for boys so often. There is the odd love affair of young urban girls with 'all that's wrong is right' Hip Hop 'style'. But most often the urban boys walking their dicks down the street on a leash. Rather, the dog walks them, you see the stupid thing walking vertical as it pulls him on the leash.

One slip of the grip and that on-coming elderly passerby 'threat' to the dog will be annihilated. The typical adoption of all that's wrong by the suburban folks shows pits and rots gaining ground with suburban folks. It's endemic of a greater problem. A love for not only what is wrong as the new 'what is right', but a need for things to be 'hard' and 'dangerous' to be interesting by the desensitised masses.

Walk into any modern 'arcade' and what is there? Video games for 'kids'. Mainly games that let you drive fast and reckless, get in an accident, and just drive away fine. And the main ones, guns. Shoot as many people as possible, get points. I'm not saying this to be anti-gun owner, I'm not. I'm making a point.

Even David Byrne, once asked why he'd gotten so into Brazillian music summed it up easily. They aren't afraid of beautiful music, or to call it beautiful. There is the perception that if it's not 'raw, hard, dangerous' it's somehow not 'real', and that's just not true. He was on point. This is yet another example of where things are going.

Sure, bless 'em, some folks do think these pit bulls and rotweillers, which I consider to be hideous on average, to be 'cute' or 'beautiful'. That's fine. That's not why many are getting them. They may sight 'protection' for having them at home. A well trained, much less likely to turn crazy on a kid, german shepherd or golden retreiver is capable of defending its owners for lower risk. So that's really bullshit. Get an alarm system, it works better.

The Grizzly Adams analogy was fitting. Raised carefully, you can make a grizzly placid and obediant. It doesn't change the basic nature. Pit Bulls were called that because they were bred to win pit fights. Everything from their bark, their musculature, etc, is intrinsic of that. When other people's lives are affected, it's an issue, and we have a right to see this risk reduced.

I'm not for killing them all off. But like guns, while it's a right, it needs to be controlled. It's one thing for a family to have one. But the way these dogs are found in heavy numbers and too often, bred to sell to those who use them in pit fights, this leads to that.

It's time the folks who own the dogs stand up against their peer-owners who are out of line. As surely as hunters would be better served to join the fight against rampant gun-abuse, so would pit bull owners. Enough of the 'it's them, not me'. The laws are going to turn towards getting rid of these dogs altogether.

If they want to prevent that, do something about it. Furthermore, end the perverse exclusionary love-affair with them and all things 'dangerous'. Many owners of one kind of hound, for example, have no issues with the others. There is a singular perversion of too many owners of pit bulls (not all) with just that breed. So quick to argue against any control of them.

I'm so glad one former owner up there who lovingly called them 'bullies' saw that while they can be nice and raised to be mostly non-vicious, they exhibit disturbing patterns even then, barking vicious at a woman who raised them kindly, as was pointed out. That ex-owner was able to end their love affair with them. Able to live without one in their house, imagine that. It's possible.

If everyone would just be nice, nobody would ever be murdered by assault weapon fire. But everyone isn't nice. Allowing easy access allows your typical pyscho to walk in a mall and cut down 20 people without reloading. Can't do that with a single-shot .22 rifle, can you? When the guns (dogs) become more important to some people than the safety of others, it's a problem.

"Well, you can kill a lot of people with a poorely driven car". No kidding. But cars were designed to transport people, not kill them. Assault weapons are made to kill a lot of people easily. And the pit bulls were bred to be more unhinged, and that's why they are on average, well trained, or not.

We the Democrats supposedly put other's well being above our own. The 'me me me' crowd is supposed to be Republican. Not all guns, pits, SUVs are bad. Fine. Whatever. Now, take the focus off yourself for a second. Your life will go on if you only own one pit instead of three. Or if you don't own any.

You can live without them. The neighbor's child who's playing innocently with the dog as he has for years who suddenly is a threat, for no particular reason, to that unstable breed, they shouldn't have to live without that child. It's time to think of other's well being over your pit-adoration.

[Maddy McCall]

65. Cue the "Probably wasn't pit bulls, b/c pit bulls are always misidentified" posts.

Complete with the "Find the pit bull" photo quiz.

Both always turn up after a pit kills someone.

[Kingshakabobo]

80. LOL.... they're like a couple criminal defense lawyers I know......

....Even if their client is caught on camera, they will have their client swear they were home with grandma baking cookies. One of the attorneys I know was very proud one of his client because he actually had the brains to wear a mask to a hold-up - it gave him something to work with..........it's a little bit of black humor from public defenders who usually don't have much to work with.

Maybe pit bulls will start wearing masks?

[Recursion]

98. The problem is you're acting like "pit bull" is a breed

Which it isn't. As far as I can tell the term only means "wide-jawed dog that scares me"

[Codeine]

130. Pit bulls are a breed, sir.

APBTs are a recognized breed, and are indistinguishable from American Staffordshire Terriers, also a recognized breed.

[Recursion]

138. If you are willing to limit the use of the term to AST's and APBT's fine

In which case, we have to discount about half of the media references to "pit bulls", and we lose the claim that "1/3rd of all dog attack fatalities are from pit bulls" (1/3rd of dog attack fatalities are from molossian breeds, of which AST and APBT's are subsets).

We don't even know the breed of dog that attacked this unfortunate woman: if we're limiting "pit bull" to mean the two specific breeds of American Staffordshire Terrier and American Pit Bull Terrier, then you have to be very careful because the news media does not limit the term "pit bull" to those breeds.

It's a phrase as meaningless and as poorly-understood as "assault weapon", and inspires almost as much misguided passion.

[Codeine]

143. ASTs, APBTs, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers

are the only real "pit bull" breeds. The other breeds may or may not need banning/eradication as well, but understand that not everyone opposed to the breeds are so ignorant as to conflate them with others or not know that they are a real breed.

As to your assertion that

>>we have to discount about half of the media references to "pit bulls", and we lose the claim that "1/3rd of all dog attack fatalities are from pit bulls"

do you have figures to back this up?

[Recursion]

154. It's more a lack of figures altogether

do you have figures to back this up?

It's only possible to claim 1/3 of all fatalities because when people see any mastiff breed they tend to call them pit bulls, regardless of what breed they actually are (and regardless of the fact that terriers are not mastiffs).

The closest thing I've ever seen to any sort of documentation for the "1/3rd of all dog attack fatalities are from pit bulls" claim is a 1998 AVMA study that said 33% of fatal dog attacks were by rottweilers (AFAIK they're still the most dangerous breed, statistically), and news reports often call rottweilers "pit bulls". If you know of a better source for the 1/3rd claim, I'd love to see it.

[superconnected]

119. the problem with believing pitbulls are the killer dog is

You are most likely to be killed by the current popular breed bred to kill you and the currently popular breed changes over time as mean dog owners tastes change.

Right now Rotweilers are most likely to attack/kill you. The pitbulls have only been known to attack/kill since the late 80's. Before that they were unheard of as attackers. Dobermans were the most likely to kill/attack you in the 70's. The frequency of what breed attacks/kills shows no breed doing it more than another without human interference making the dog mean.

25% of all deaths from dogs involve owners who put dogs in illegal dog fighting. Nearly all deaths from dogs involve dog owners who made the dog antisocial and mean.

http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_02_06_a_pitbull.html

[NorthernSpy]

71. pitbulls acting like pitbulls -- no more "shocking" than a tiger acting like a tiger...

You can bet the dogs were taught that way and this is owner negligence.

That's where you're wrong. Pitbulls don't have to be taught to be aggressive and violent. It comes natural.

[LeftyMom]

74. That is a load of crap

[NorthernSpy]

137. you don't like it, but that doesn't make it false...

There's a reason why dogfighters don't use beagles.

[LeftyMom]

166. Even fighting dogs are bred for dog agression, not human agression

They want to be able to handle them safely. The problem with them comes from neglect, they're kept on chains and statistically that makes ANY dog dangerous.

Pit bulls don't behave in ways that are atypical for any terrier of similar dimensions (and unless bred with something else, they're not very big. Unfortunately asshole dig fighters and wannabees come up with some really ill-planned mixes.) The problem is twofold: one, they're the current asshole magnet breed, and two, they're very needy and do especially poorly when abused or neglected.

[NorthernSpy]

213. you don't think there's any crossover between human agression and dog aggression?

I think a slew of fatal maulings say otherwise.

[LeftyMom]

214. No, there's a pretty good connection between abuse and neglect of dogs and attacks on humans.

Tethering and failure to spay or neuter are the two things most closely associated with dog bites, and both of them are poor human behaviors.

[truthisfreedom]

79. Based on empirical evidence, it's a bad breed. In any other time, it would be eradicated.

Humans used to learn from their experiences. That's how we got rid of the other bad breeds.

[flvegan]

87. Oh, brother.

[Recursion]

96. Really, "pit bull" is a breed now?

When did that happen?

[Codeine]

125. It's always been a breed.

The UKC and ADBA consider it one, and the AKC recognizes the American Staffordshire, which is genetically the very same breed. You are quite wrong on this point.

[Recursion]

133. So you will assert "pit bull" laws only affect American Staffordshire terriers?

That will come as quite a surprise.

[Codeine]

145. In my case

I assert that any such ban should only apply to the actual pit breeds; APBT, AmStaffs, and Staffies. Other people may differ.

[Recursion]

151. what about close mixes?

[Codeine]

156. Depends.

Some dogs strongly favor one side of their gene pool, so yeah. Other times you just get a mutt, so no.

[sarcasmo]

82. Whoever owned the Dog's should be punished that's the only way to stop this culture of breeding

Killer Dog's.

[Recursion]

95. "Pit bull" is like "assault weapon": a phrase made up to frighten soccer moms

There is no such breed. It it not recognized by the American Kennel Club or any other dog breeding organization I know. The phrase "pit bull" has been applied to bull terriers, staffordshire terriers, and a host of other breeds. In general dogs called "pit bulls" are brachyocephalic but this is not always true (particularly as what little meaning the phrase had has been erased by increased use).

[superduperfarleft]

103. Good point.

Funny how none of the "shoot all pits on site" crowd is responding to your posts.

[Codeine]

131. I responded.

With actual facts proving the assertion incorrect.

[Kingshakabobo]

106. HUH?

I'm more of a mutt fancier myself, so I'm not up on the differences between the UKC and AKC.... or the other apparent pissing matches going on, but it's quite clear there is an APBT breed that's recognized.

I don't know what your point is to deny that???

During one of the more recent DU pit dust-ups regarding a killer pit, someone chimed in, in usual fashion, and asked "how do you know it was even a pit-bull?".......it was evident from the 911 call tapes when the victim's son screamed in to the phone that his two "red nosed" pits were killing his mother.

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/americanpitbullterrier.html

The AKC considers the American Staffordshire Terrier as separate and distinct from the American Pit Bull Terrier, yet the UKC will register both as American Pit Bull Terriers (APBTs)


Description:
Known for their intelligence and loyalty American Pit Bull Terriers make excellent, loving and protective companions despite the unfair press they receive. A common question regarding the APBT is, "How is this breed different from the American Staffordshire Terrier?". In the eyes of the United Kennel Club, they are the same breed, but many disagree. Some AKC-registered American Staffordshire Terriers are dual-registered as American Pit Bull Terriers with the UKC; however, this draws criticism from many who point out that the bloodlines have been separate for too long for these to be considered the same breed. The AKC, on the other hand, does not allow a UKC-registered American Pit Bull Terrier to be registered as an American Staffordshire Terrier. To be dual-registered, the dog must first be an AKC-registered American Staffordshire Terrier and then it can be registered with the UKC as an APBT -- but not vice versa... Choose from a responsible breeder and make sure the puppy is properly socialized and handled. Solid training will produce a tranquil, good, obedient, companion dog.

[Codeine]

124. You don't know what you're talking about.

APBTs are recognized by the American Dog Breeder's Assoc as well as the UKC. There is indeed such a breed, and most researchers consider Staffies and Pitties to be the same dog breed.

[Arkansas Granny]

99. I don't know much about this site or the reliability of the info,

but they seem to have a large amount of data concerning dog bites that have caused harm to people.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

[Kingshakabobo]

102. The pit bull apologists will be along shortly to say it was written by *GASP* an attorney.

You know, those damn trial lawyers.

Also, they'll say the figures are taken from "selective" media reports and not ALL cases (the author addresses that, BTW). Yep, there are a bunch of PUG related deaths the "pit bull phobic" media is hiding out of prejudice.

The numbers kinda jump off the page, don't they.....


The best part is the analysis and his conclusions about pit bull attacks on ADULTS with the same frequency as children as per the OP.......but the apologists will piss on your shoe and tell you it's raining.

[flvegan]

109. Merritt Clifton's "study" is a train wreck of mass proportions.

Using unverifiable third party data from multiple sources and then arranging it in a manner that suits you is hardly to be taken seriously.

[Kingshakabobo]

115. Are there any studies from sources YOU deem credible.

The author addresses the fact that the study doesn't encompass ALL dog bites/attacks - just the attacks that are serious enough to be reported and/or require hospitalization.

Sure, it doesn't cover minor bites from yappy dogs......but those aren't the bites that mame or kill people and end up being reported. One doesn't have to be a statistician to recognize that time after time after time, it's Pit Bulls that are killing people. The most alarming part is, and the author addresses this, the attacks on ADULTS and unprovoked attacks.

Unless you have some sources citing all the deaths caused by other breeds, I will take your anecdotal evidence and "love" of the breed for what it is.

[flvegan]

116. Did you read the study?

Where Clifton ADMITS that it's based on precisely what I stated? I'd say the exact same thing if it showed pit bulls weren't responsible for any attacks. It's a crappy resource and my saying so has nothing to do with my like/dislike of any breed, unlike the blindness you're displaying here.

[Arkansas Granny]

118. What about this study from the Center for Disease Control about

dog bites?

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

If this report is also skewed, do you have a reliable resource on this subject?

[flvegan]

121. It is also skewed.

Some notes (admittedly from a biased site) and footnotes here:
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/CDCReport/CDCReport.htm

There really is no reliable resource (that I know of). You'd think that they could compile this data, yet nobody really has taken point on that.

[LeftyMom]

122. Germany tried for a few years.

Damned if I have the links ATM, they were on the laptop that went poof during finals week, along with the rest of my stuff for the BSL project. I have it backed up, but haven't pulled it all of the portable HD yet.

[Arkansas Granny]

126. I'm afraid I would have to consider any "facts" from that website

as being even more skewed or biased than either of the websites I have provided links to just on the name alone (understand-a-bull). If there is no reliable data on dog bite statistics I don't see how those who defend pit bulls have any more credibility than those who want to ban the breed. My own experience with the breed is about 50-50. Some I have met seem to be great dogs and some of them I just get bad vibes from.

Edited for spelling.

[flvegan]

136. I can understand that.

They at least footnoted where the problems are in the CDC numbers, but YMMV. There are a number of sources that talk about the CDC numbers, the flaws, and why they stopped keeping the data. I just didn't have the time to go dig them up.

Folks defend pit bulls when they're wrongly maligned. The pit bull phenom is a media driven fear tactic. I can see folks that have had bad experiences with pit bulls (or any breed or animal) having a belief or mindset that is against them. Once bitten, twice shy so they say.

I was bitten when I was a kid by a retired police dog. He ran across a busy street and attacked me while I was on my paper route. Do I hate German Shepherds? No.

[Kingshakabobo]

183. Christ, you guys are like global warming deniers....

Three studies, including the CDC, point to problems with Pits. In all three studies, the Pit figures jump off the pages.

Look. I understand you love the dogs, your dogs, and the dogs you rescue - I happen to think MY dog's shit doesn't stink and every bark is music to my ears.........but, sometimes, you have to take a step back and think about the people in your community. I sure hope you don't have the same "all dogs are the same" cavalier attitude when you place those rescues with families.

[flvegan]

253. Hey, let me know why they stopped taking data.

Publishing the numbers. Look it up. Go ahead, make with the Google, like ignorant bastards do.

It's because it's inaccurate. Doesn't suit your bullshit cause, so it can go by the wayside.

[dropkickpa]

159. That site was created and is maintained

By a personal injury lawyer drumming up business. Most of his sources have been proven to be dead wrong, but, since he's on the interweb, of course he can't be wrong. Clifton (where he gets his info from), has long been discredited as a reliable sorce for ANY information. The Clifton report is NOT a survey of hospital reports or police records or animal control reports, but ONLY of news stories. According to Clifton, Chow were responsible, in the entirety of the US and canada from 1982-2006 24 years, just 49 attacks. BUT, according to the Texas Dept. Of Health, in 1997 alone chows were responsible for 64 severe attacks. Hmmm, maybe Clifton is full of shit!!

[Arkansas Granny]

162. If you have a link to any reliable statistics, I would be interested

in seeing them. Each time I have posted a link to statistics I get told that they are inaccurate, but no one can point me to a site that they consider to be credible which makes it hard for me to refute the studies I have found.

[dropkickpa]

171. There is no one place to find that

because of the huge variances in reporting (there is no nationwide reporting mechanism). The Clifton report is based solely upon media reports for the time period stated, with no follow-up done OR citations available for independant follow-up. BUT, his paper looks fantastic on an ambulance chasers website (completely disregarding the fact that, if it were presented in a court of law any defense lawyer worth the paper his degree is printed on could get it thrown out in 2.5 seconds). But it is significant to note that just one year of one incomplete report from one state does in fact invalidate Clifton's report.

You can access the texas reports (which were discontinued due to failure of all counties to report and concerns over misuse and misrepresentation of the data). http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/idcu/health/zoonosis/animal/bites/summaries/

[Kingshakabobo]

182. Your links certainly don't help your case.

Even according to those numbers. Pits STILL are responsible for 150% more attacks than the next highest breed.

Tell me, why do the Texas figures closely resemble the Clifton study?

Why does the CDC study resemble the Clifton study?

Like I said up-thread, Pit Bull fans will piss on your shoes and tell you it's raining.

[dropkickpa]

185. Are you serious? You need a math tutor!

The Clifton Study covers a 24 year time period including both the US and Canada. The Texas reports were each only reporting on one year. They don't resemble each other at all. That was my point. The Clifton report is a bunch of bullshit written up by a BSL supporter using only one (unreliable) source for it's numbers.

Over the course of the 7 years of the Texas reports, a total of 330 bites attributed to pit/pit mixes were reported out of a total of 3,628 total dog bites. That's 9%. There was a total of 572 chow/chow mix bites reported meaning 15.76%.

How in the fuck do you get that going by the texas numbers that pits account for 150% more than the next nearest breed? I've heard of fuzzy logic, is this a form of idiot math I didn't learn? The Clifton report numbers don't even reflect 7 years of Texas reporting, let alone the bites across all 50 US states and the entirety of Canada.

How is it, on a site where it is acknowleged the press is extremely biased and continuously practices sensationalistic and faulty reporting, somehow, this uncredentialed guy who performed a completely unscientific survey of news articles is given a pass as if he's passing on hard facts?

Raw numbers don't show anything statistially significant. To calculate the likelihood of a specific breed to attack, you also have to calculate the total number of animals in that breed. Pit bull/pit bull mixes are one of the most populous breeds in the US.

Directly from the CDC's study (Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks
in the United States between 1979 and 1998) http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

Discussion
Ideally, breed-specific bite rates would be calculated
to compare breeds and quantify the relative dangerousness
of each breed. For example, 10 fatal attacks by
Breed X relative to a population of 10,000 X’s (1/1,000)
implies a greater risk than 100 attacks by Breed Y relative
to a population of 1,000,000 Y’s (0.1/1,000).
Without consideration of the population sizes, Breed Y
would be perceived to be the more dangerous breed on
the basis of the number of fatalities.

Considering only bites that resulted in fatalities,
because they are more easily ascertained than nonfatal
bites, the numerator of a dog breed-specific human
DBRF rate requires a complete accounting of human
DBRF as well as an accurate determination of the
breeds involved. Numerator data may be biased for 4
reasons. First, the human DBRF reported here are likely
underestimated; prior work suggests the approach
we used identifies only 74% of actual cases.1,2 Second,
to the extent that attacks by 1 breed are more newsworthy
than those by other breeds, our methods may
have resulted in differential ascertainment of fatalities
by breed. Third, because identification of a dog’s breed
may be subjective (even experts may disagree on the
breed of a particular dog), DBRF may be differentially
ascribed to breeds with a reputation for aggression.
Fourth, it is not clear how to count attacks by crossbred
dogs. Ignoring these data underestimates breed
involvement (29% of attacking dogs were crossbred
dogs), whereas including them permits a single dog to
be counted more than once. Therefore, we have elected
to present data separately for purebred and crossbred
dogs to demonstrate at least 2 alternative counting
methods. Relative rankings do not differ greatly
whether one focuses only on purebred dogs or includes
crossbred dogs. The crossbreed issue is also problematic
when estimating denominators (ie, breed-specific
population sizes).

[Kingshakabobo]

187. Hold the phone a second.....

I only saw the stats for 2002........where Pits were double the next breed on the bite list.

I must have confused the CDC dog bite fatality list where bits are @ 66 total deaths versus the next breed @ 39 for Rots and 17 for shepherds. I assume the CDC is a trusted source?

where do you see the compilation in the Texas number?

Also, where do you get the idea that Pits are one of the most popular breeds? The pits don't even make the top twenty in any list I've seen??????





This list is based on AKC registrations for the year 2005.

1. Labrador Retriever
2. Golden Retriever
3. Yorkshire terriers
4. German shepherds
5. Beagles
6. Dachshunds
7. Boxers
8. Poodles
9. Shih Tzus
10. Miniature Schnauzer
11. Chihuahuas
12. Pug
13. Bull Dog
14. Pomeranian
15. Cocker Spaniel(American)
16. Rottweiler
17. Boston Terrier
18. Shetland Sheepdog (Sheltie)
19. Maltese
20. German Shorthaired Pointer
21. Doberman Pinscher
22. Miniature Pinscher
23. Pembroke Welsh Corgi
24. Great Dane

[dropkickpa]

190. I did my own maths!

I'm special that way. I took the numbers for each of the given years stats, added them up, then calculated the precentages.

AKC registration does not reflect actual population, just registered pure-breds and fanciers willing to spend the money on registration. Many people that think they have papered dog don't even go the full course to register them in their own name, they think the puppy papers are sufficient, and backyard breeders know little of what is required to fully register an adult beyond their own breeders.

It is nearly impossible to calculate breed totals, but going by increases in registrations over a time period and also taking count of shelter population make-up (which are a very good reflection of breed prevalance, and they also show regional prevalance ie pit/mixes are more common in urban shelters, hound/mixes in rural etc etc). It's a sad fact that you can easily figure out what a popular breed was in a given year by the number of young dog dumps (for instance, when the live action dalmations movie came out, there was a marked increase in dalmation and dalmation mix dump in the year following it's release, just based on my own experience and that of other shelters http://archives.cnn.com/2000/SHOWBIZ/Movies/11/27/dalmations/index.html). The shelters near me regularly have a 50-60% pit bull population.

http://www.eastbayspca.org/aboutus/memotocraigslist2.cfm - letter from MANY SF Bay area shelters, demonstrating what most urban shelters are facing.

Many estimates of US pit bull population figures, based on registrations and shelter population surveys, have them somewhere around 5-10 million, roughly 10% of the total estimated dog population.

UKC reg stats for 2006

Rank Breed
1 Treeing Walker Coonhound (Scenthound Group)
2 American Pit Bull Terrier (Terrier Group)
3 Bluetick Coonhound (Scenthound Group)
4 English Coonhound (Scenthound Group)
5 American Black and Tan Coonhound (Scenthound Group)
6 Redbone Coonhound (Scenthound Group)
7 Beagle (Scenthound Group)
8 Labrador Retriever (Gun Dog Group)
9 Plott Hound (Scenthound Group)
10 American Eskimo (Northern Breed Group)
11 Toy Fox Terrier (Terrier Group)
12 Jack Russell Terrier (Terrier Group)
13 Rat Terrier (Terrier Group)
14 German Shepherd Dog (Herding Dog Group)
15 Dogue de Bordeaux (Guardian Dog Group)
16 Golden Retriever (Gun Dog Group)
17 American Bulldog (Guardian Dog Group)
18 Australian Shepherd (Herding Group)
19 Standard Poodle (Gun Dog Group)
20 Russell Terrier (Terrier Group)

[Kingshakabobo]

192. Yeah, well you have me at a disadvantage........

...I'm in bed with no calculator, pen, or paper and I'm half drunk from the three jumbo Hacker-Pschorrs I had with dinner.:)

You're not saying that list you posted is representative of the US dog population? Are you?........that doesn't make any sense at all. 5 of the first 6 are coon hounds? That's crazy talk....

Anyway, I'll stick with the CDC's numbers on fatalities......and the Pit FAR outshines any other breed.

[dropkickpa]

206. The list is an example of UKC registrations

Just as a comparison to the AKC list.

[Kingshakabobo]

216. That's a funky list.......

Perhaps I live in a bubble in Chicago where everyone has a Lab (half of them named Wrigley :) ).

[dropkickpa]

219. The UKC

Is mostly for "working dog" types. They run agility shows, field, hunting, obedience, weight pull, etc. in addition to looking for "pretty" dogs. Often, when you hear "show line" and "field line" the difference can be seen by looking at AKC and UKC registered lines. AKC breeds primarily for conformation (looks), though supposedly overall breed. UKC breeds for looks, but functionality is also important to the club, offering titles in many categories.

I could not tell you how many dogs/cats/other animal I have met here in Pittsburgh named Bettis.

[DemGa]

105. I had a Pit Bull that "turned"

I adopted him, and I assume he was abused but had no way to tell, as the dog was simply abandoned at my house.

A Pit Bull "wired" for the kill is some very scary stuff indeed -- one killing machine. Obviously the dog had to be put down.

[Kingshakabobo]

108. I had a friend that had a sweet and very lovable Pit - until it took part of her arm's flesh off.

It looked like a boat propeller accident.

[EFerrari]

111. My kid wanted me to adopt a pit bull after my Buddy died.

I couldn't even bring myself to pet the dog. He was acting very sweetly but there was something that seemed so unstable. Maybe my projection, and it's likely my kid won't forgive me, but no way was I going to court that kind of trouble.

As with game cocks, this seems to me to be a man made problem. And, the animals pay for it. :(

[MadHound]

148. It probably was your projection

Perhaps you should try out a pit bull puppy. It is hard to project the image that the media has portrayed about pits onto a cute pit puppy. However if you get one I warn you, puppy proof your house and have plenty of chew toys on hand. When pits go through that chewing phase, it's a doozy.

[EFerrari]

165. My Lab puppy ate my iPod, a new camera, the bathroom door

and took a chunck out of my cello. And that was with two 1 hour walks per day.

lol

[Marrah_G]

210. If it was a pit up for adoption there could well have been some underlying issues

It was probably good instinct on her part.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

211. Of All the wonderful breeds out there WHY should people choose the pit bull...

and variations? :eyes:

[MadHound]

226. Because many sensible people, such as myself, realize that pits and pit mixes are wonderful dogs

Hell, until pits became the current "bad boy" breed, pits were recommended by no less than the AKC as the best family dog going. They really still are. I've had a pit or pit mix in my house all of my adult life, and they are wonderful, loving dogs who are intelligent, sweet and gentle. The only drawback that I've found with pits is that when they are pups, going through their chewing stage they really chew up things and need to have plenty of chew toys around. Other than that, they're great dogs. I've trained my every one of my pits to walk on voice command alone, no leash, and have had no trouble. They have all been unfailingly gentle to the children in my life, love my cats and get along with the other dogs that I've had.

A lot of those other "wonderful" breeds that you talk about have also been "bad boy" dogs at one point or another, German Shepards, Dobermans, Rottweillers, St. Bernards, all of these and more have been the "bad boy" dog du jour. Yet many of these dogs are still considered great dogs. Eventually the same thing will happen with pits, the idiots will move on to some other breed and pits' reputation will be rehabilitated. However I still say if you want a great dog, get a pit or pit mix, you won't regret it.
Or continue to buy into the bullshit and let the sensationalist media make your choice, it is your decision:shrug:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

228. The wonderful breeds I am thinking of aren't among those you listed

I speak from my own experience and do not buy into media sensationalism. My personal experiences with Staffordshire and pit bull terriers have not been good at all. True stories I read about attacks by same dogs solidify my feelings that they are not for me. I know one person who loves the breed, as you do, and makes it his mission to defend the pit bull, as he is worried about their survival with all the bad press they are getting. That is noble, to a point, but denying they are a potential danger to anyone or other dogs is irrational. Since my terrier was attacked by a pit bull I carry pepper spray. If your, or anyone else's unleashed pit bull ever comes running towards me or my dog, it will get a double dose.

[MadHound]

233. Then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this

However the stats, not the sensationalist media, backs me up. Oh, and if you and I do meet, I can guarantee you that my pit mix will stay right by my side until I command her to do otherwise.

Oh, and as far as terriers go, I don't know what particular kind you have, but there are many terriers who bite people far more often than pits(according to the CDC). In addition the AKC lists five different breeds of terrier as the worst family dog breeds.

You say that you don't let the sensationalist media influence you, yet then you go on to cite the sensationalist media:crazy:

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. But really, you owe it to yourself to get over your pit prejudice. You sound like you've got an acquaintance who knows what he's talking about when it comes to pits. Perhaps you should listen to him. Better yet, next time you're in the market for a new dog, get a pit pup and raise it like you would any other. You'll never regret it.

Or continue to buy into the sensationalism and remain in ignorance. Peace:hi:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

235. News reports of people being mauled by pit bulls are not "sensationalism"

They are factual reports. You pride yourself on having your pit bull UNLEASHED but under voice control. I am sure you know that many people are frightened by strange dogs running off leash, regardless of the breed, but particularly those that have gotten such press as pit bulls. While you may have your dog under better control than many dog owners, why would you take a chance, and why would you knowingly frighten people by letting your dog run loose? I have had way too many negative experiences with macho types, men and women, who say their dogs can run without a leash because they are under voice control. COuntless times the owners have had to scream over and over to get their dogs to come back to their side, or physically come over and get their dog, while I am standing there worried about what is going to happen to me or MY dog.

Adding: My terrier's breed has one "attack causing bodily harm" incident shown, while the pit bull terrier breed has 1110, not including pit bull mixes. (http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf)

[MadHound]

256. It is sensationalism when the reports are exclusively about pits, and don't mention other breeds

That are involved in attacks. Example is upthread where a poster at first insisted that it was pits that killed a San Fran woman. It was Pressa Canarios, not pits, but hey, that's sensationalism. Did you hear about the Pomeranian that killed a baby this year? No, probably not, but you heard about this latest pit attack. What about the Lab that killed a child in Missouri? Nope, but darn those mean ol' pits. This is what I mean by sensationalism, every single bad thing done by a pit is repeated ad nauseum, yet you rarely hear about other dogs misdeeds. Not only that, but pits are blamed for a lot of attacks that they simply don't instigate because people assume that a dog who is vicious must be a pit.

As far as frightening people, that is not my intention, nor is it my intention to act "macho"(but hey, thanks for the drive by smear). My intention is to show people what a good breed pits are. Walking on voice command is legal in my area, and I take advantage of that. I also get my dogs certified in obiedience training, if that soothes your soul. But frankly, if other people get nervous around my dog, that is their problem. Sure, I know the rep of pits, but that is what people get for falling for stereotypes, you wouldn't do that with people, why do you do it with dogs? I don't scream at my dogs, nor do I have to come retrieve them. They stay with me unless I release them, and they come back immediately when I call.

I've met many, many people like you in dog parks. You have watched the sensationalist media, bought into the hype and stereotypes, and when you see me walking into the park with my dog, you freak, perhaps leave. But if you don't leave, you get to a dog, much like any other dog, who is well behaved, likes to play with other dogs and people, loves children, and when my dog comes up to you with her mouth open in a grin and her tongue hanging out, light finally dawns that this is just a dog, like any other, and a friendly dog at that. So you reach down to pet her and the worst that happens comes true: you get big wet slobbery dog kisses.

Oh, and when you're going to reference something, please used an unbiased source like the AKC or CDC. Dog Bite Law is simply a trolling page for customers, and Kenneth Phillips is an asshole who has done much to set back the reputation of pits, especially since he makes money off of spreading his bullshit.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

261. Then stop stereotyping me

I speak from personal experience and rarely watch TV news. My dog was viciously attacked by a pit bull in a dog park. I didn't even see this monster coming, so didn't have a chance to freak or leave beforehand. I rarely even go to dog parks anymore, because of this experience.

I wasn't aware the stats I referred to were from a "biased" site, but have no reason to believe the info is inaccurate. Do you have a reliable source with current statistics? HEre are the CDC stats for fatal attacks on humans. Unfortunately this only covers the period 1979-1998. You can see pit bull breeds topped the charts back then, too. http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

"As far as frightening people, that is not my intention, nor is it my intention to act "macho" ..My intention is to show people what a good breed pits are...much like any other dog...well behaved, likes to play with other dogs and people, loves children, and when my dog comes up to you with her mouth open in a grin and her tongue hanging out, light finally dawns that this is just a dog, like any other, and a friendly dog at that. So you reach down to pet her and the worst that happens comes true: you get big wet slobbery dog kisses."

You are in dreamland or worse, denial, to say that pit bulls breeds are just like any other dog in situations with strangers. And frankly I think it is irresponsible for you to make that assumption.

"But frankly, if other people get nervous around my dog, that is their problem. Sure, I know the rep of pits, but that is what people get for falling for stereotypes, you wouldn't do that with people, why do you do it with dogs?"

Forcing your beliefs down people's throats...Getting a bit of pleasure from intimidating and perhaps endangering other people and their pets...stereotyping people which is the very thing you appear to abhor in others. This statement shows there is an anti-social element to your motives.

You go your way and I'll go mine. Happy trails.

[MadHound]

275. Ah, even worse

You're speaking from your own limited experience. Gee, would you feel the same way if your dog had been attacked by oh, say a lab?

And you go to a site that is sponsored by a lawyer that specializes in suing dog bite cases and expect it to be unbiased:eyes: However you did at least check the CDC, that's good. The trouble is the CDC is being a bit disingenuous also. Notice the wording, "pit bull types". Sorry, but that covers a wide range of breeds, and in the heat of the moment a lot of people make mistakes. Again I refer you to the poster upthread who mixed pits with pressa canarios, and that was while calmly posting, imagine the confusion in the heat of the moment. But hey, while you were there did you also note who the top breeds for biting were? Or are you in all your blindness simply assuming that it was pits?(hint, it's a much smaller breed).

You further go on to state that I'm stereotyping you by stating that you're reacting like many people who buy into the popular media sensationalist hype. You state that you don't watch much TV, but hey, TV is only a small part of the media, so unless you completely cut yourself off from the world, you're exposed to it. And quite frankly your bias exposes the fact that you've bought into it, personal experience or no.

But you go on further, continuing to do the drive by smear, accusing me of being anti-social, enjoying intimidating others, endangering others, and irresponsible. Ooo, nice shots, one and all, all those baseless accusations of a person you don't even know. Congratulations, you're making yourself look foolish, really. Because I'm not just none of those things that you claim, but pretty much the exact opposite. Not only that, I've got years and decades of working with animals, in vet hospitals, shelters, rescues, etc. etc. Do you have that kind of experience or are you once more talking out your ass? Somehow I think it is that latter, but hey, unlike you I won't make that assumption for certain.

But I will tell you this, people like yourself need to wake the fuck up and get out from under your suppositions. I carry a scar on my face from a pug attack when I was a small child. If I took your attitude, I would be out killing pugs this very instance. Instead I didn't stereotype an entire breed of dog, and take each and every dog on an individual basis, like I do with people. But you, you are as bad as any racist when it comes to dogs, you want to destroy an entire breed because of your own limited experience. How fucked up is that? I really feel sorry for you, you limit yourself and your life because you stereotype dogs and who knows what else. But more importantly I find people such as yourself a menace because you want to control what dogs I and others own, all based on your own limited experience and your own baseless fear. It is people like you who make my life difficult. If you want to constrict your own life, fine, but don't come and try to restrict mine or my dog's.

It is because of people like you I rescue pits and pit mixes. Too many fools see pit and want to kill the dog, no matter their disposition or personality. Fools who ascribe near mythical qualities to a simple dog who wants a home and love, just like your dog or any other dog. So before those idiots get the needle in, people like myself adapt the dog, train them well and make these dogs excellent examples of what pits are, loyal, lovable, intelligent dogs.

My suggestion to you is to get to know pits. If you're ever out my way, you can meet my girl, but if not, I really suggest that you find one in your area and really get to know these dogs. You'll not only be doing yourself a favor, but the whole breed a favor. Because much like stereotyping people based on race or ethnicity, stereotyping dogs by their breed is stupid, senseless and wrong.

Oh, and next time leave the personal attacks at home.

[Kingshakabobo]

269. So you agree with the CDC?

From the CDC:

"Despite the limitations and concerns, the data indicate that Rotwilers and PitBull-type dogs accounted for 67% of DBRF(dog bite related fatalities) in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities."

(bold mine)

[PeaceNikki]

242. I chose mine as a rescue to protect her from people like you.

With closed minds.

How much did you pay a puppy mill or private breeder for your "variation" of a dog?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

245. What an asinine thing to say

:rofl:

[PeaceNikki]

248. It's your question that was devoid of intelligence, not my answer.

Many, including myself, "choose" this "variation" of a dog to give them a safe loving home and protect them from people with bad intentions. Bad intentions include the assumptions made in this thread that they are inherently bad and don't deserve a safe loving home.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

257. My, aren't you a tad hostile?

A legitimate question: Why would people choose this breed over all others? You have given one reason. Thank you. I think there are others... Dogs are like an extension of their owner. Pit bulls are used by some people as a power symbol, to intimidate and threaten other people.

By the way, what business is it of yours how much money other people pay private breeders for their dogs? Why does that upset you?

[dropkickpa]

270. Why I chose a pit

I chose a pit bull because of their outstanding traits. They are loyal, love people, are easily trainable, athletic, intelligent, short haired (minimal grooming required, no fur tumbleweeds in the house), not too big but not too small (should be around 55lbs), clownish demeanor, and good with kids. We had a lab rescue that I spent a year working with her behaviorally but I ended up having to return her to the rescue because of an unprovoked bite to my daughter's face (she was a great dog otherwise).

Growing up, my family had golden retrievers, and we also bred them (not backyard breeders, we bred for temperment and exemplery breed characteristics, crossing a show and a field line; many of our pups went on to become accomplished in agility, obedience, therapy work, etc, not your typial backyard breeder blond retards). Great dogs, love them, but not what I wanted. I am well aquainted with MANY breeds, and I chose a pit bull as being the best suited to my families needs and lifestyle. Except for the times when both Dropkid and Agatha decide to make confetti, I have absolutely no complaints (Dropkid will sit there with scissors shredding paper, the dog with her mouth).

[MadHound]

132. I carry a scar on my face to this day from my grandmother's pug

Again, it isn't the breed of the dog, it is the owner and the circumstances.

[NorthernSpy]

140. and if the pug had been a pitbull...

... you wouldn't have a face.


http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/Jones.htm

[MadHound]

146. No shit sherlock

If it had been any larger dog I wouldn't have a face. But hey, everybody wants to join in on the pit bashing train, why not you, right?

What an idiotic reply, and way to miss the point that I was making.

[NorthernSpy]

153. well, what point were you making?

That any dog can bite? What else is news?


My point is that if the dog attacking you happens to be a pitbull, chances are you're in for a thorough mauling. They're less likely to back off than other dogs, and more likely to continue the attack until you die, or wish you had.

[MadHound]

200. The point

Is that if it had been any large dog, I would have been in for a thorough mauling. Your ignorance about dogs is apparent, since any dog attacking a human is unlikely to back off. Not just pits, but labs, shepards, etc. etc. You're trying to ascribe characteristics solely to pits, when in reality they're quite common to most dogs.

For instance in this past year we've had a couple of cases of Pomeranians killing babies. These characteristics are common throughout the species, so please stop falling for the bullshit and trying to limit them to pits alone.

[NorthernSpy]

212. look, it's just not true that all dogs are equally unlikely to back off...

If you want to be a friend to this breed, then you've got to start by acknowledging their nature. You do them a huge disservice by trying to convince people that a pitbull is just like Lassie under the skin.

[MadHound]

227. You're the one who is trying to do them a huge disservice by spreading sensationalist bullshit

Especially when you don't even know what the fuck you're talking about. Here's a little lesson for you about the history of pits. Yes, they were indeed bred to fight other animals. The key word in that previous phrase was "animals". Since the dog handlers of the day(and this was started a few hundred years ago) had to deal with these dogs when they were aroused, angry, hurt, etc., they didn't want a dog that would turn on them. So using the logic of the day, they killed any pit who bit or attacked a human. Thus, they wound up with a breed that while capable of being vicious towards other dogs and animals(if not properly socialized), was amazingly gentle towards humans, no matter what was going on.

This characteristic of the breed led the AKC to highly recommend the pit as the best family dog going. This recommendation stood for years and decades because pits were simply very gentle, loving dogs. Kids could roughhouse with them, play with them, even abuse them with no fear of the dog turning on them(unlike many other, especially small, breeds). This recommendation stood until the '80s when the first of the great pit scare started and the AKC was forced by the public, blinded by the sensationalist media, to withdraw this recommendation. Still, if you ask dog handlers and breeders who are in the know, they will tell you that pits still are the best family dog going.

But sadly the public at large has been blinded by two decades of sensationalist media. While cockers and poodles remain the dogs most likely to bite, pits get the shaft. Yes, pits are currently the bad boy dogs of the day, much like German Shepards, St. Bernards, Dobbies, and Rotties once were. That still doesn't make them a bad dog, that makes the owners bad owners and horrible people. Do you realize what it takes to break down a pit and make it mean? I do, for I worked with a shelter that did numerous rescues. You have to starve, beat, attack, abuse, shock, and in general torture a pit before it becomes mean, and yet many, many pits still simply won't be mean. General estimates are that for every mean, vicious "fight quality" pit out there, two others were put down by asshole owners because they simply weren't vicious. I've fortunately rescued one of those "rejects", a sweet pit mix whose previous owners did every vicious thing that they could to make my poor girl mean(and she still has the scars from it). And yet the most vicious thing that she does is lick the heads of my cats, clean out the other dogs' ears, and play with my friend's young children. There isn't a vicious bone in her body, and that is true of the vast majority of pits.

So I suggest that you stop buying into the media hype and educate yourself. I've worked in the animal field for a long time and no better. Now it is time that you stopped buying into the hype and find out the facts for yourself.

Oh, and speaking of Lassie, last I looked at the CDC stats, collies are also more likely to bite you than pits. So no, pits are Lassies under the skin, in many cases they're better.

Go educate yourself and stop buying into the bullshit, sensationalist media.

[superconnected]

114. it's not pitbulls, it's people - please read

http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_02_06_a_pitbull.html

"When I first started looking at fatal dog attacks, they largely involved dogs like German shepherds and shepherd mixes and St. Bernards—which is probably why Stephen King chose to make Cujo a St. Bernard, not a pit bull. I haven't seen a fatality involving a Doberman for decades, whereas in the nineteen-seventies they were quite common. If you wanted a mean dog, back then, you got a Doberman. I don't think I even saw my first pit-bull case until the middle to late nineteen-eighties, and I didn't start seeing Rottweilers until I'd already looked at a few hundred fatal dog attacks. Now those dogs make up the preponderance of fatalities. The point is that it changes over time. It's a reflection of what the dog of choice is among people who want to own an aggressive dog."


"In about a quarter of fatal dog-bite cases, the dog owners were previously involved in illegal fighting. The dogs that bite people are, in many cases, socially isolated because their owners are socially isolated, and they are vicious because they have owners who want a vicious dog. The junk-yard German shepherd—which looks as if it would rip your throat out—and the German-shepherd guide dog are the same breed. But they are not the same dog, because they have owners with different intentions."

[JerseygirlCT]

135. Yes. Which is why the owners ought to be treated as if they

used a weapon to kill this woman, period.

The dogs responded to the training they received (or didn't). They are the responsibility of their owners and the owners should be held absolutely responsible.

[EFerrari]

167. I'm always on the dogs' side BUT

when we know how intractably stupid people are, the next element we can influence is the breed. And a Lab is not as likely to go nuts at a pitbull.

[superconnected]

173. A lab is as likely to go nuts if it's taught to.

Labs have killed people too. Read the article. Pitbulls weren't attack dogs until the 1980's. Now Rotweillers are killing and attacking more people than pitbulls. Before pitbulls it was german shepards and before that dobermans. Now dobermans and german shepards aren't killing people. The article said that it's been decades since the expert saw a doberman kill. In the 70's they were the most likely dog to kill and pitbulls were unheard of as attackers until the late 1980's.

[EFerrari]

175. No, a Lab is not as likely to attack.

That's just bullshit.

[superconnected]

177. I see you still haven't read the article.

[EFerrari]

181. Yes, I have. And I've been raising Labs for nearly 20 years. n/t

[superconnected]

220. Then I guess you just missed the point of the article.

I'm sure people raising pitbulls for decades were equally surprised when they suddenly started reading about pitbulls attacking people. Are you upset about the labs that have killed people? You should be. How you raise dogs and how someone else does isn't the same thing.

"I've seen virtually every breed involved in fatalities, including Pomeranians and everything else, except a beagle or a basset hound," Randall Lockwood, a senior vice-president of the A.S.P.C.A. and one of the country's leading dogbite experts, told me. "And there's always one or two deaths attributable to malamutes or huskies, although you never hear people clamoring for a ban on those breeds. When I first started looking at fatal dog attacks, they largely involved dogs like German shepherds and shepherd mixes and St. Bernards—which is probably why Stephen King chose to make Cujo a St. Bernard, not a pit bull. I haven't seen a fatality involving a Doberman for decades, whereas in the nineteen-seventies they were quite common. If you wanted a mean dog, back then, you got a Doberman. I don't think I even saw my first pit-bull case until the middle to late nineteen-eighties, and I didn't start seeing Rottweilers until I'd already looked at a few hundred fatal dog attacks. Now those dogs make up the preponderance of fatalities. The point is that it changes over time. It's a reflection of what the dog of choice is among people who want to own an aggressive dog."

[EFerrari]

246. That's a pretty gross misrepresentation.

Labs are famously gentle. You don't read a story a week about a Lab that went nuts and killed its owner. It isn't about how I raise Labs. It's more that Labs don't have to be tamed as much as they just grow up. Inhibiting their bite is a walk in the park.

Yes, people's perception in part "shape" what the bad dog of the day is. But there are breeds that are more aggressive than other breeds in their DNA. I didn't want a Lab last time out but a terrier. Well. I have cats and terriers are hunters so, no terriers here. That's not because terriers are bad, it's just DNA.

[depakid]

260. Sounds like the old saw: guns don't kill people....

Fact is, we hear about a serious pit bull maulings all the time.

Three or four a year, in my old neighborhood alone.

e.g.:

Pit Bull Attacks Woman and her Small Dog
July 16, 2007

Summary of Incident:

Washington County Sheriff’s deputies responded to the 2700 block of SW 216th Avenue in Aloha. Several 911 calls were received reporting that a 72-year-old woman and her small dog were being attacked by a Pit Bull. The woman was taken to the hospital with severe bites to the hands and arms. Deputies seized the dog and cited the owner for allowing it to run loose. The woman’s small dog was not harmed.
http://www.co.washington.or.us/sheriff/media/pitbulla.htm

[DesertRat]

169. Unleashed dogs are my biggest fear when walking

My heart goes out to the mauling victim and her family. :cry:

[Recursion]

170. Do I do something that makes unleashed dogs not angry at me?

I've been around unleashed dogs, even angry unleashed dogs, and the worst they ever do is bark. What do dogs do to you when you're walking?

[DesertRat]

176. I usually walk with my cocker spaniel

Dogs often come out of nowhere barking and running at full speed. One time a St. Bernard who got away from it's owner and bit my dog (the owner paid for the vet bill). I think that most times the dogs who run toward me whether with or without my dog are friendly and just want to greet me. Once a dalmation bolted out of it's house when the owner opened the garage door jumped right up on me, but he wasn't angry. It still scared me! Since my dog is deaf and old, she doesn't even acknowledge the another dog until it is right beside us. After the biting incident, I am very nervous when they coming running.

Articles like the one in the OP add to my fear of unleashed dogs.

[Thickasabrick]

172. It's dog fighting for sport that needs to be eradicated - then

the problem would go away. I think there needs to be stiffer penalties for dog fighting promoters.

I thought chows were dangerous and were bred to fight - I think it's more of whatever the latest trend is.

[ingac70]

186. My mother in law's neighbors had a Staffordshire Terrier...

That they had had since it was a 6 week old puppy. It was raised with 4 other dogs, 2 poodles and 2 yorkies. This dog had aggressive tendencies toward other dogs in the neighborhood for years. One day, when the Staff 5 years old, the family came home to find it had slaughtered all the other dogs in the house it had lived with all its life.

[Writer]

191. Oooh! Pit bull fight! Pit bull fight!

I want a piece of the action! :9

Seriously, though, how many unfortunate anecdotal stories is it going to take for the general public to notice a rather obvious trend?

And don't give me that "You don't know what a pit bull looks like!" crap. Look, the dog's jaws lock onto its victim, piercing through the skin and tissue, and will not unlock until the dog is either shot or relaxed somehow (which is unlikely). This is a BREED SPECIFIC trait that pit bull mixes can carry, as well.

:thumbsdown: I am so tired of our not accepting the obvious here. We have a breed that is more likely than not to be a perpetrator in lethal dog attacks. We need to take steps to either work with breeders to lessen these characteristics, or classify the breed as a menace that must be heavily regulated.

PIT BULLS: IT'S TIME TO GET REAL.

~Writer~

[LeftyMom]

193. Problem: Everything in your post is untrue.

"And don't give me that "You don't know what a pit bull looks like!" crap. Look, the dog's jaws lock onto its victim, piercing through the skin and tissue, and will not unlock until the dog is either shot or relaxed somehow (which is unlikely). This is a BREED SPECIFIC trait that pit bull mixes can carry, as well."

Fuck if I know where that myth got started, but there is nothing in either their bone structure or surrounding musculature which in any way distinguishes pit bulls or their mixes from other dogs of their size. As I was bit on my right hand by a startled pit who promptly let go, and there's nothing wrong with my right hand, I'm actually very aware that their jaws do not lock or function abnormally in any way.

"We have a breed that is more likely than not to be a perpetrator in lethal dog attacks."

I hope you misphrased this, because the blinding ignorance of the alternative is a more than a bit scary. The likely intended meaning is wrong enough.

[Writer]

194. I must continue the disagreement!

So I will surrender the point about the jaws - I AM (upon reflection) using hearsay.

However, I offer you this article about my second point:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/23/MNGRODDH561.DTL

Pit bulls account for 1/3 of the total number of fatal attacks in the US, according to this 2005 study.

Now - understanding well that this disagreement will go NOWHERE but downhill - I can't ignore the obvious, and I wish we'd start accepting reality.

~Writer~

[LeftyMom]

195. Here's the problem with that: without info about how breeds were identified and about their relative

popularity during the period, those statistics don't mean anything. Moreover, are they more dangerous than other breeds which were the disproportionately abused tough guy dog of their day? (Rotties, dobies and german freaking shepherds have all been the scare dog at times in the past.) Without better context, we don't know if there is a disproportionate attack problem, nor do we have any indicators if it's of human origin or a problem with the dogs themselves.

The misidentification issue is a big problem when attacks are reported, especially with unknown dogs, as most people know fuck-all about dogs and tend to identify any square-headed dog bigger than an english bulldog and smaller than a volkswagon as a pit bull. I know I had to deal with that all the damned time with my boxer, people crossing the street to avoid the scary "pit bull" and she looked exactly how a boxer is supposed to look and had the mild boxer personality (hobbies: eating, sleeping.)

edit: And while I'm at it, without going into the (really horrible) details, it eventually came out that the 12 year old boy who was killed in the case you linked to had been locked in the basement while his parents were out to protect the dogs (well, the female anyhow) from his behavior, and that when he got out and was attacked he was (trying to be delicate here) doing some harm to the female. Which kind of makes my point about statistics without context.

[Kingshakabobo]

202. That's a crock of shit. The CDC study is broken down by breed......

Pure AND mix.

[LeftyMom]

207. You have once again had your hair parted by the point as it whizzed by.

Of course it's broken down by breed. The problem is that it has no clear standard for identification, and does not adjust for popularity In other words if yellow labradors cause three times more bites than vizslas according to medical records, we need to know how many yellow labs there are relative to vizslas there are in the canine population- likely lot more than three times- and at least make some attempt to figure out if the breed was positively identified, or if most of our vizsla bites were filed under some other breed or as unknown.

[Kingshakabobo]

229. And once again you attempt to spew that "misidentification" bullshit

.....as if people don't know what kind of dog they own.........or that animal control/police can't identify a breed during a homicide investigation after it has killed a human.

Fucking global warming deniers got nothing on you people.

[LeftyMom]

230. with unknown dogs, misidentification is common

If I had a nickel for every time my boxer (who looked exactly like a boxer, wasn't a mixed breed, and much too small and jowly to be a pit bull, even at a casual glance) was mistaken for a pit bull, I could buy myself a nice vacation someplace.

People who don't know dogs or are afraid of dogs tend to think that any square headed dog bigger than a breadbox is a pit bull.

[Kingshakabobo]

231. We're talking about fucking homicide investigations.....

.......not some nervous nelly crossing the street with her poodle because spots a boxer.

[LeftyMom]

232. Where does the dog identification part of police training come in?

Assuming they find the dog?

And for that matter when did we move from dog attacks to dog fatalities?

[Kingshakabobo]

234. There is a CDC study quoted up and down this thread that pertains to Pit related deaths...

.....being one third the total dog fatalities for the last twenty years.

Stop being intentionally obtuse.

Unless you are prepared to say that dogs that kill don't get handled and processed by animal control and other responsible authorities you argument isn't worth the pixels it took to display on my screen. You know, responsible animal control authorities - not some internet "expert" that never heard of "gameness."

[Name removed]

236. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kingshakabobo]

238. Are you the bona fide Pit expert that never heard of "gameness"?

:hi:

[Name removed]

252. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kingshakabobo]

262. LOL

[Seabiscuit]

266. Welcome

to the special joys of having an encounter with "Ignored". :)

[hollowdweller]

204. My wife says it feels like putting your arm in a vise.

She was answering a health complaint, saw the dog but saw it was on a chain. She was talking to the owners and as soon as she got "in range" light lightning it had her arm and had her on her knees it hurt so much. Luckily the owners were there and she was wearing a thick coat so all she got was a huge bruise on her bicep.

[LeftyMom]

208. Chained dogs of any breed are much more likely to bite.

Prolonged fixed-point tethering is illegal here for the past year, more for that reason than out of concern for the dogs.

The dog that bit me was also chained- I was talking to his "owner" a few days before the 4th of July, somebody set off some fireworks, and I think he was frightened. He was always a very badly socialized dog, and the prolonged chaining only made the problem worse.

But there's nothing that makes their bite any worse than that of another dog of the same size. The reluctance to let go is a terrier thing, since terrier breeds were originally bred for pest control- the idea was to bite rats and shake them to death. Actually most of the "problem" traits in pits are general terrier traits, and only problematic because people who should have lower-maintainance dogs or none at all don't expect them or don't know how to deal with them.

[EFerrari]

247. It should be illegal to keep dogs chained.

God, people are seriously fucked up.

[LeftyMom]

279. It is in California. Since January 1 of this year.

:D

Sometimes we get one right out here.

[superconnected]

221. There's a bigger "reality"

The reality is, that 30 years ago the dogs killing people were nearly all dobermans and pit bulls killing people were unheard of. And the reality is dobermans haven't had a case of killing people in over 20 years.

So the reality is the dog that kills the most - which is now rotweilers, changes as the people who want mean dogs change their choice of dog breed.

So your information is not only dated, it's ludicrous because you are blaming a breed and not the people who make the breed mean.

You can continue believing the problem is pitbulls themselves, but you're most likely to get killed by another breed that didn't have prior kills, now.

[superconnected]

222. Only adopt dogs that look like snoopy, if you want to be safe.

"I've seen virtually every breed involved in fatalities, including Pomeranians and everything else, except a beagle or a basset hound," Randall Lockwood, a senior vice-president of the A.S.P.C.A. and one of the country's leading dogbite experts, told me. "And there's always one or two deaths attributable to malamutes or huskies, although you never hear people clamoring for a ban on those breeds. When I first started looking at fatal dog attacks, they largely involved dogs like German shepherds and shepherd mixes and St. Bernards—which is probably why Stephen King chose to make Cujo a St. Bernard, not a pit bull. I haven't seen a fatality involving a Doberman for decades, whereas in the nineteen-seventies they were quite common. If you wanted a mean dog, back then, you got a Doberman. I don't think I even saw my first pit-bull case until the middle to late nineteen-eighties, and I didn't start seeing Rottweilers until I'd already looked at a few hundred fatal dog attacks. Now those dogs make up the preponderance of fatalities. The point is that it changes over time. It's a reflection of what the dog of choice is among people who want to own an aggressive dog."

http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_02_06_a_pitbull.html

[superconnected]

223. pick your favorite attack dog from the news -

http://www.standunited.ca/sourcesforreading/regardlessofbreed.html

June 2005

Paris Hilton's Chihuahua Tinkerbell attacks TV Producer
Pointer attacks child
The Jackson's Husky bites woman
GSD-Husky mix attacks child - Breed confirmation email
Dalmatian lunges thru car window to attack two pit bulls
Dog attacked in her yard by three Bernese Mountain dogs
Family's Great Dane attacks 2 yr old
7 yr old bit by family pet GSD/Great Dane mix, Hernando FL
German Shepard shot and killed trying to attack an officer
14 yr old bitten by family hound dog,Hernando FL
Two Labradors and a Chow attack woman
Grandparents Akita bites 2yr old, Ohio
Hound attacks child, San Diego CA
Chow mix attacks 7 yr old girl, Texas
Shepard kills family pet, Arizona
Bull Mastiff attacks 4 yr old


May 2005

Mastiff kills dog
Boerboel attacks owner
Mixed Breed dogs attack pets
Girl attacked by possible Dalmatian or Springer
Talk Show host bitten by Doberman
Mastiff Mauls JRT
Great Dane / Mastiff mix attacks dad and daughter. This dog had already attacked it's owner a couple times.
Boxer attacks owner in her Kitchen
Pomeranian in Brisbane declared dangerous
German Shepard attacks and kills families pet
Poodle attack
Husky attacks child
Boxer bites another woman in CO
Two dogs maul sheep, Rhodesian Mix and Red Heeler mix
Golden Retriever attacks mother and Child / Breed ID from TV STation
Akita attacks mailman, owner arrested, Kansas City, MO

Two attacks by Mastiffs in two days - Australia

1) Mastiff attacks 12 yr old Jack Russel Terrier

2) Bull Mastiff attacks woman, the dog calmly walked over and the proceeded to drag the woman down.
Labrador Mix sends girl to the hospital
Milo the Pomeranian declared Dangerous dog in Brisbane
Bull Mastiff attacks six yr old boy
Lab-Chow mix attack animal control officer
Mixed breed dog bites 2 yr old
Police K9 dog attacks officer, Charlotte, NC
Bichon killed by what appeared to be a German Shepard and a Labrador
Boy attacked by 4 dogs, 2 Labradors, Doberman and a bulldog mix, Georgia
Boy attacked by suspected Huskies, KY
German Shepard and Doberman attack man, Orange County, FL
Golden Retriever attacks 2 yr old, Kansas
Alaskan Malamute kills 7 yr old - Denver CO
Families two Siberian Husky's kill 2 yr old - Michigan Another story
Family Pets, Labrador and Dachshund attack elderly woman.
English Bulldog Attacks,


May 2005

Family Briard kills 8 yr old girl. Also mentioned in the article is an attack in Finland about a lady killed the day before by a Bull Mastiff. (Article is in Swedish) English translation
Doberman attacks child in Sweden, May 05 - English translation
Heeler attacks and injures 3 children and 1 adult.
Rare Asian Jindo attacks woman
Dalmatian attacks postman for the second time,


April 2005

Golden Retriever attacks
Chow attacks
Police Dog (German Shepard) bites woman
Elderly woman killed by her mixed breed dogs, GA
Dalmatian bites Jogger
Families Dachshund and Labrador maul elderly woman
Two Mongrels kill a couples Shih-tzu
Court orders Husky destroyed after 3 yrs of escalating attacks, Chippewa Valley, WI
Husky at large attacks woman and dog

Texas K-9 dog "fired" due to biting people without being told including a child.
Toddler mauled by Heeler/Shih-tzu mix
Husky attacks 7 yr old boy in Astoria

Retired Police Dog mauls neighbor
Siberian Husky attacks Mailman
Siberian Husky attacks 3 boys in Delaware

April 05
Akita/Shepard attacks child,

Possible Labrador attacks child


March 2005

Two Boxers attack 71 yr old woman,
Shar-pei mix attacks pre-schooler,
Labrador attacks child while she's playing,
Boy mauled by Shar-Pei,
Mastiff attacks meter man,
Family Labrador-Bloodhound attacks 6 day old infant,
German Shepard mauls woman,
Toddler attacked by Husky/Shepard mix
Rhodesian Ridgebacks attack woman
Golden Retriever mauls 7 yr old (2nd incident for this dog)
For the third time in about a year the city council has declared a dog "vicious".
-- A blue heeler mix was banned from the community after it bit a small child and
---chased other children.
Labrador attacks worker
Chihuahua terrorizes mail carrier


February 2005

Briard attacks child


December 2004

Black Shaggy dog bites man


November 2004

St. Bernard Attacks Neighbor


October 2004

Dalmatian bites of 1/2 of toddlers nose -
English Mastiff attacks child
Mutt kills 5 week old infant -
Bouvier kills Yorkie at dog show
Bull Dog attacks owner -


May 2004

Alsatians (GSD) guard dog attacks student, May 04


February 2004

Basset/Shepard mix kills 17mnth old boy.


2003

Mixed-breed Bouvier
Akita's attack child
Grandparents Golden Retriever mauls visiting granddaughter
Mix breed
Cocker Spaniel attacks guide dog
Akita attacks 3 month old infant
Golden Retriever attacks toddler


2002

Bloodhound Mix Mauls toddler
Malamute Attacks
Family Dachshund attacks family infant
Poodle attacks Pit Bull
Husky Mix mauls infant
Would be Police K9 kills 4 yr old boy
2001
Family Pomeranian kills infant Another Story
Police K-9 attacks girl


2000 and earlier

Cattle Dog
Black Labrador attacks neighborhood children



------------------

gotta love the poodle attacks pitbull one..

[renegade000]

237. oh dear...with all the

alleged causes of BB's death floating around, I first read the title as

"Bhutto mauled to death by pit bulls"

i suppose it's only a matter of time before they float that one.

[FarrenH]

240. Dobermans and Rotweillers

are also dangerous, so its a bit silly constantly bringing up dobie or rottie attacks as if they somehow let bulls off the hook. My mother's finger was bitten off by the neighbours much loved rottie and my lip was bitten off by another one who I had always had a great relationship with (both were re-attached successfully, thank God)

Both breeds are banned in sensible Germany, along with bullies, IIRC.

The frequency of attacks by a particular breed from year to year probably does reflect the popularity of the breed at the time, but that doesn't obviate the fact that some breeds are more aggressive and less safe than others.

[FarrenH]

241. Ah, found it. Here is the list of breeds banned in Germany

Cat.1)
American Staffordshire Terrier
Pitbull Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Bull Terrier
Neopolitan Mastiff
Spanish Mastiff
Dogue de Bordeux
Dogo Argentino
Fila Brasileiro
Roman Fighting Dog
Chinese Fighting Dog
Bandog
Tosa Inu

Cat.2)
Akbash
Briard
Beauceron
Bullmastiff
Dobermann
Estrela Mountain Dog
Komondor
Kuvasz
Maremma
Mastiff
Pyrenean Mastiff
Pyrenean Mountain Dog
Rottweiler
Tibetan Mastiff


And here is why Rotties and "Pit Bull" type dogs appear on that list (its from Wikipedia, but with solid references):


Pit Bulls and dog bite related human fatalities

A study published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association in September, 2000 reports that in the 20 years studied (1979 to 1998) "Pit-bull type dogs" and Rottweilers were involved in one half of approximately 300 dog bite related fatalities in the US<2>. Another study of American and Canadian dog bite related fatalities from September 1982 to November 2006 produced similar results, reporting that Pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes were responsible for 65% fatal dog attacks. <3> This study also noted: "Of the breeds most often involved in incidents of sufficient severity to be listed, pit bull terriers are noteworthy for attacking adults almost as frequently as children." and "They are also notorious for attacking seemingly without warning, a tendency exacerbated by the custom of docking pit bulls' tails so that warning signals are not easily recognized."


I know people love these breeds. I loved and owned one of their number for several years. But all the love in the world won't change the facts. Random news clips about attacks by other breeds don't obviate hard statistics.

[flvegan]

250. "Sensible" Germany? Rotties, pits?

Fucking please.

Look up the Russian Volkodavs...the ovcharka.

We ain't seen shit yet, and Germany wishes she knew better.

[PeaceNikki]

243. This thread is laughable and sad simultaneously.

It's riddled with misinformation like
*Pit bulls jaws lock
*Pit bulls jaws are stronger than other dog's
*Pit bulls will "turn" on you
*They're bred killers
*Gameness is related to human/dog interaction

And media and POLITICAL hype such as
*Quoting stats from sources that have a vested COMMERCIAL interest in its presentation
*BUYING INTO the media hype of recent years with regards to pit bull attacks
*BSL works


And most of all - that fatal dogs bites by ANY is a rampant problem and that we as a society must address via BSL.

People, we're Democrats. IS this a real problem? Hmm... more people die annually from falls in the bathroom, lightening strikes, food poisoning, etc every year. There are a HANDFUL of fatal dog bites. Why do we hear about it a lot? Because it's rare. And awful. Just like mall and school shootings. They're rare. They suck. The PEOPLE responsible should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. But, do we really need to legislate against a breed? No, we need to educate people. Owners and the general public alike. We need to show people how to raise dogs, how to train dogs. We need to educate kids (and most adults) on how to approach ALL dogs properly.

The problem can't and won't be addressed by throwing BSL at it. If it's not pits, the people will find another breed. It's been Rotts and Shepherds in the past.

Address the problem, don't react to fear.

[flvegan]

251. Please don't bring logic, biology and fact into this fray.

And for gawd's sake, don't bring human mentality/idiocy into it.

It makes others look terribly stupid.

[Seabiscuit]

258. At least once a year, some DU'ers go through this orgy of flames about pit bulls, pro or con.

If people were half as passionate about scientific research, for instance, as they were about their dogs, we might have a cure for cancer by now.

"Pit bulls are a menace!" "Pit bulls are so sweet and cute and cuddly!" and on and on and on...

[DrDan]

263. check some of the links above . . . they fully support positions of the posters

Do not be so quick to criticize - until you check the sources.

When the statistics over a long period of time (many years) clearly demonstrate that pit bulls are a menace based on attacks and fatalities - not just "more", but significantly more, then the "scientific research" you ask for has been provided.

[Seabiscuit]

264. You missed my point.

I wasn't asking for "scientific research" in support of one side or the other in the pit bull wars.

I was merely pointing out, as clearly as I know how, something entirely different. That if people showed the same passion for science that they did for dogs, we might have a cure for cancer by now. Just another way of saying, for instance, if we spent less time paying attention to Michael Jackson, Brittney Spears, Paris Hilton, American Idol, etc., we might actually learn more about what's going on in the world.

I personally happen to believe that pit bulls are a menace, and I agree with the results of the study you posted, but that's neither here nor there, as far as my point was concerned.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

265. Most of us can be, and are, passionate about more than one issue

As if there is mutual exclusivity involved... Neither is this in the same category as "Michael Jackson, Brittney Spears, Paris Hilton, American Idol, etc":eyes:

[Kingshakabobo]

267. What's worse is.........

.......a couple people from the "Pits are so cute and cuddly" apologist brigade claim to run rescues for Pits. I hope they are a little more responsible in the real world when placing these dogs with families - especially families with children.


From the CDC:

"Despite the limitations and concerns, the data indicate that Rotwilers and PitBull-type dogs accounted for 67% of DBRF(dog bite related fatalities) in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities."

(bold mine)

[LeftyMom]

278. Claim? Are you questioning the veracity of those "claims"?

flvegan does a non-breed specific dog rescue which has mostly pits and mixes because that's what people are abusing these days. He has pics in his journal, going back for years, of many of these dogs, along with their stories. I've been to his house. The dogs exist. They've begged me for food, got hair all over my clothes, mobbed me to be petted, and sniffed my crotch, so I'm fairly sure I didn't hallucinate them.

Are you suggesting that we're both engaged in some elaborate ruse, and have been for years, to manufacture evidence of a dog rescue that doesn't exist, in order to gain credibility in arguments about pit bulls on the DU? Because I'd be horribly insulted for his sake if that wasn't the stupidest thing I've seen anybody say on DU in a very long time.

[0007]

268. Wow!! And the average American pit bull owners can't understand why they

need a distemper shot from their friendly vet.

[dropkickpa]

271. What?

What are you talking about? What does distemper have to do with anything? Do you know what distemper is? Distemper is a virus (from the same family as measles) that can be fatal to many species, including the weasel, panda, seal, raccoon, and is suspected in recent lion deaths. Here - http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_canine_distemper.html

Distemper (the feline version is panleukopenia) is part of the standard puppy vaccine course.

[0007]

281. I'm talking about people that are ignorant and try to protect the killer dog.

They need a distemper shot. Including YOU!!

Now do you know what I'm talking about??

[dropkickpa]

282. Nope

Because you obviously have no fucking clue. You want to vaccinate me against a measles-like virus that causes gastrointestinal, respiritory, and nervous system effects? Your ignorance is very well highlighted by this clumsy attempt at being clever.

[0007]

284. You are about as dense, dumb and insipid and those stupid looking

dogs that are called Staffordshire Terriers, and with the same vindictive mentality.


BTW Thank you for the discourse on distemper....LOL!!

[dropkickpa]

285. Ooooooo

An internet tough guy! Wow, you are making me skeered! You are too smart for me! I can post pictures too!!

[crim son]

272. I'm trying to visualize a pack of, say, poodles, attacking and killing

a human being. I can't do it.

[JVS]

280. Had she been taunting them?

:popcorn:

[lisainmilo]

286. What a horrible death!

The owners of those dogs should be held accountable for manslaughter. That had to be absolutely horrible and fearful for that poor woman!
I am a dog lover, but do have a fear of pits, I think too many people have improperly trained them.






When the were pups:













and now..: the girls are sporting the green paint they got into!
:-)

[superconnected]

287. die thread, die!

[Kingshakabobo]

288. Huh?