Tougher Emissions Regulations Could Bring End to Muscle Cars, Says GM

[underpants]

Source: Fox News

DETROIT — When General Motors Corp. pulls the cover off a new supercharged version of the Corvette at the Detroit auto show next month, it will unveil a performance car designed to rival or better even the fastest, most expensive exotic cars from Europe.

But the Corvette's chief engineer says the 2009 Corvette ZR1 may be the last in a long tradition of Detroit performance cars, endangered by stronger federal fuel economy regulations and limits on carbon dioxide emissions.

"High-performance vehicles such as this may actually be legislated out of existence," Tadge Juechter said at a recent showing of the ZR1, which is designed to have around 620 horsepower.

"It could really be an endangered species," he said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317556,00.html

---

Looks like they need to get them some better engineers

[alcibiades_mystery]

1. Quelle dommage!

Waaa waaa waaaa.

The reactionaries will love this one.

[Kutjara]

2. "It's terrible," Juechter continued...

..."with all the new regulations coming into effect, we'd actually have to spend money on R&D if we wanted to make cars that were both powerful and efficient. That's just intolerable. The American automotive industry has been built on the principle of repackaging the same old crap and selling it as "brand new" for generations. I don't know what we'd do if we actually had to come up with something really new. Go out of business, I guess. Who does the government think we are, Germans?"

[underpants]

4. AND

those damned workers' healthcare adds a THOUSAND DOLLARS to the price we HAVE to charge

Very funny Kutjara and dead on the money

[Megahurtz]

3. How About An END TO S.U.V.'s???

I'd rather see this much more logical conclusion being addressed first.

[truedelphi]

7. I used to wish it too. But it probably isn't going to happen.

They really something mess up the traffic.

You can't see ahead of them - I was behind a HUMMER in a crowded parking lot, and it just stopped.

I didn't know if I could go around it, or not.

Was there traffic coming at me if I did? Or was the parking lane empty?

People in small cars face those dilemmas all day long.

[freedomnorth]

96. What if you just tag them green?

“People don’t think ‘green’ when SUVs are concerned, and for generally good reason since SUVs often get poor fuel economy compared to most other vehicles. Chevrolet’s Tahoe Hybrid changes this dynamic with a fuel efficiency improvement of up to 30 percent compared to similar vehicles equipped with a standard V-8.”

http://www.greencar.com/features/2008greencar

[flvegan]

5. Um, isn't it the average mpg of all cars sold that determines that?

In other words, GM...look, you're only going to sell so many ZR1 'Vettes. Your problem is that your small cars that get good mileage are crap, and folks will buy a Honda first. Stop selling so many Tahoes and Suburbans, and get rid of the H2 altogether.

Sell more Cobalts and G6 type cars, get yourself a good hybrid program, and shut up.

[trogdor]

12. Make a better Cobalt first.

10 less MPG than a Civic, and trimmed in cheap plastic besides. Yeah, they expect to sell lots of those.

[flvegan]

20. Agreed. That was my point.

Build it better, sell more. Better yet, build it better and make it a hybrid.

[greenman3610]

6. Lazy, lying groupthink ****heads

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/07/02/are-you-kidding-me-woolsey-and-eberhard-drag-racing-in-a-tesla/

Alt-fuel advocate (and ex-CIA head) James Woolsey was taking a test drive in a Tesla Roadster. Tesla Motors' CEO Martin Eberhard was sitting shotgun. When the Corvette pulled up next to them, Martin just smiled and told Woolsey to "Take him." Then, the all-electric supercar "left the Corvette driver with one question when he caught up at the next light: 'What is that?'"



http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/120/motorhead-messiah.html

In the corner of his office sits Arnold Schwarzenegger's 1987 Jeep Wagoneer, which Goodwin is converting to biodiesel; soon, Neil Young will be shipping him a 1960 Lincoln Continental to transform into a biodiesel--electric hybrid.

His target for Young's car? One hundred miles per gallon.

This is more than a mere American Chopper--style makeover. Goodwin's experiments point to a radically cleaner and cheaper future for the American car. The numbers are simple: With a $5,000 bolt-on kit he co-engineered--the poor man's version of a Goodwin conversion--he can immediately transform any diesel vehicle to burn 50% less fuel and produce 80% fewer emissions. On a full-size gas-guzzler, he figures the kit earns its money back in about a year--or, on a regular car, two--while hitting an emissions target from the outset that's more stringent than any regulation we're likely to see in our lifetime. "Johnathan's in a league of his own," says Martin Tobias, CEO of Imperium Renewables, the nation's largest producer of biodiesel. "Nobody out there is doing experiments like he is."

Nobody--particularly not Detroit. Indeed, Goodwin is doing precisely what the big American automakers have always insisted is impossible. They have long argued that fuel-efficient and alternative-fuel cars are a hard sell because they're too cramped and meek for our market. They've lobbied aggressively against raising fuel-efficiency and emissions standards, insisting that either would doom the domestic industry. Yet the truth is that Detroit is now getting squeezed from all sides. This fall, labor unrest is brewing, and after decades of inertia on fuel-economy standards, Congress is jockeying to boost the target for cars to 35 mpg, a 10 mpg jump (which is either ridiculously large or ridiculously small, depending on whom you ask). More than a dozen states are enacting laws requiring steep reductions in greenhouse-gas emissions. Meanwhile, gas prices have hovered around $3 per gallon for more than a year. And European and Japanese carmakers are flooding the market with diesel and hybrid machines that get up to 40% better mileage than the best American cars; some, such as Mercedes's new BlueTec diesel sedans, deliver that kind of efficiency and more horsepower.

General Motors, Ford (NYSE:F), and Chrysler (NYSE:DAI), in short, have a choice: Cede still more ground--or mount a technological counterattack.

Goodwin's work proves that a counterattack is possible, and maybe easier than many of us imagined. If the dream is a big, badass ride that's also clean, well, he's there already. As he points out, his conversions consist almost entirely of taking stock GM parts and snapping them together in clever new ways. "They could do all this stuff if they wanted to," he tells me, slapping on a visor and hunching over an arc welder. "The technology has been there forever. They make 90% of the components I use." He doesn't have an engineering degree; he didn't even go to high school: "I've just been messing around and seeing what I can do."

[underpants]

8. Exactly

I guess these McMBA's haven't learned anything from the Japanese car infusion of the late 70's or the Honda Accord huh?

[screembloodymurder]

128. I'll say it for you. GM is run by muscle heads,

a bunch of tight little assholes on a power trip. They think horsepower is a measure of penis size.

[CRF450]

131. Ignorance is bliss.

[truedelphi]

9. Our local paper had an editorial about the Air Car that runs on Compressed Air

They are being made in France and in So Africa.

The car runs on, GET THIS! compressed air.

France is planning to make sure that there are compressed air refuel stations across the nation, found at the gas stations.

Filling up your tanks of compressed air will get you a 120 miles worth or road travel. Though it sounds like they are planning on that number increasing dramatically soon.

mexico is about to build several compressed air car factories.

The car is named the E-volution (the hyphen is part of the name.)

Anyway the editor was ranting on how it is the other nations doing this and NOT US!

Here is the URL complete with snazzy photo (you'll have to cut and paste)
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/988265.stm

[sendero]

100. I'm as excited by new technology as anyone..

... and think that technology is the solution to the energy problem, no doubt.

But I doubt if compressed air is much more energy efficient than internal combustion, and strongly doubt it is more energy efficient than an electric motor.

It takes energy to compress air, a lot of energy.

[AndyTiedye]

10. ELECTRIC Motors Have Better Acceleration

They can get their performance and better fuel economy too with hybrids.

[Javaman]

54. Oh shush!!

you know that anyone that has a "muscle car" needs to hear the ear splitting sound of it revving up? Because without that, they won't be able to show how tough they are.

Sigh.

Frankly, I prefer the stealth, low profile, bad ass, blow their doors off with a quiet engine that runs very smooth.

Hmmm, now what kind of engine could do that?

electric.

[AndyTiedye]

59. Like One of These

http://www.teslamotors.com

[Javaman]

60. Yes, I know! Me likey a lot! LOL :) nt

[CRF450]

11. Why would they be endangered when they still get much better mpg than SUV's??

From the last 10 years, Corvettes have been able to get up to 30mpg on the highways/interstates and average in the low 20's. My 01 Trans Am WS6 has the same LS1 5.7 v8 and T56 6 speed tranny that the 97-04 Corvettes used. I average around 22 or 23mpg and have gotten 31mpg on the interstate going 74mph.

Most of the exotic sports cars the current Z06 Vette competes and usually wins against get half the fuel milage of the Vette! I see no reason what so ever for them to do away with the Corvette.

[AdHocSolver]

71. It is not the Corvette that would go away. GM doesn't want to change anything, and you guys are...

easier to scare than soccer moms. The technology exists today, and actually has existed for years, to get better gas mileage from ALL gasoline engines. But the same people who own auto company stock also own OIL company stock. They have to make gas guzzlers if they want to keep oil profits up.

Many years ago I owned a 1964 Ford with an iron block 289 CU-IN V-8 engine with a not very efficient 3-speed automatic transmission and a carburetor (rather than fuel injection). It was a 4000+ pound car with surprisingly good pickup. I got 15 MPG in city driving and up to 19 MPG on the highway (depending on how fast I drove).

This car was big and the technology was not designed to save fuel. Yet today, many of the SUV's, vans, and pickup trucks of comparable weight sold by the Big Three cannot get any better gas mileage. Todays technology has given us overhead cam engines, four- and five-speed transmissions with locking torque converters, electronic fuel-injection, variable valve timing, and computer controlled everything, and they still waste gas.

The auto companies want to protect their investment in oil stock. They don't want to improve gas mileage. However, they would look foolish threatening to stop producing SUV's and trucks, if they are forced to improve gas mileage. So they threaten to stop producing big, bad muscle cars because they know guys like you will carry the fight for them to keep making their REAL gas guzzlers.

My advice to you would be to support efforts to get the auto companies to improve gas mileage across the board. Since I assume you are familiar with automotive technology, you should understand the point I am making here. Instead of playing their game for them, and supporting their empty threats, I suggest that you explain to nontechnical people how the auto companies could improve gas mileage with existing technologies and reduce our dependence on imported oil.

Reducing oil consumption would stabilize or reduce gasoline prices (less demand), reduce pollution, and lower the costs of everything that we buy that is dependent on oil for its production. Another cause worth fighting for is to force the oil companies to stop putting ethanol made from corn in the gas. This practice does not save oil (gas mileage is less with ethanol), it doesn't reduce pollution, and it is causing food prices to skyrocket for corn-based food (dairy, meat, and baked goods containing corn syrup).

[CRF450]

75. Your a bit off in your third pargraph

Large SUV's now weigh nearly 8,000 pounds and they get typically 14mpg city. My dad's Crown Vic weighs 4,000 pounds and gets around 20+mpg. Thats with a 4.6 190hp v8.

[fascisthunter]

13. OMG - What Will Society Do!

Jesus Christ. There will muscle cars, they just won't go up to 200 mph on a race course. I think consumers can live with that.

[CRF450]

14. Yes their will always be a market for them....

And I'm one of those buyers, I like fast cars.

But I dont really consider Corvettes, Mustangs, and the upcoming Camaro or any car with a high powered v8 muscle cars, the EPA killed the muscle car back in the 70's.

[ldf]

66. yes, it makes great sense

to spend a ton of money on a car that has the capacity to do something that you can NEVER do, while driving it...

just WHERE are you going to drive 200 mph???

why even make speedometers that register over 90 (and engine capacity to deliver it), when the absolute maximum speed is 70? you may need 90 mph for the 30 seconds it takes to pass a car, but that is it.

this involves nothing but ego, which we ALL pay for.

FUCK the planet (and the safety of fellow roadsters). your ego is what is important.

[CRF450]

74. Did you know their is such a thing called "a drag strip" and "closed course tracks"?

I take the T/A to the local drag track about every other month.

Pull your head out of the sand.

[ldf]

83. sputter, cough, choke

(spits out sand, shakes sand out of ears)

uh, yes, i DO know about them.

i am so glad you have to the time and finances to use 'em.

that doesn't mean that those cars have to be on the road with the rest of us pedestrian drivers, nor should car companies build entire lines of cars that can, supposedly, do just what you want to do, but are never able to do, except for a few minutes on the weekend.

you want to do it. fine. stay in your niche market while the car companies build green, fuel efficient, safe and comfortable cars for the rest of us.

you shouldn't even be a component of that equation.

but, hey. sexy sells. hopefully green will to.

[Jackpine Radical]

15. Good fucken riddance.

There is a place for energy-efficient or (better) alternative-fuel SUVs, though.

[CRF450]

16. So your in support of fuel efficient SUV but not a sports car?

[Jackpine Radical]

25. Yes, because I live in a part of the world where SUVs make sense.

Snow, mud, things like that. They're a lot safer than 4wd pickups because of the weight distribution. My wife & I both drive Subarus because they get fair mileage (28-30) while keeping us on the road when we need to be out in snow & ice, and permitting us to make it up our quarter-mile driveway in mud season every spring. I'd love something with a good hybrid or renewable-fuel engine. I'm also hoping to get the $$ together to get a compact diesel tractor to replace our 2 old gas burners.

[CRF450]

26. Ah, so its more about location.

Today performance cars get respectable gas milage compared to what they got 30 years ago. Like I said in another post, the current Corvettes do get up to 30mpg on the highways. Its the same way with my Trans Am which uses the same drive train as the 97-04 Vettes.

[pleah]

17. Big deal.

They should have gone out with the dinosaurs. Gas eaters should have been a thing of the past back in the 70's, when the first round of price gouging started.

[Orsino]

18. Eventually, we'll be giving up the car-as-penis imagery...

...and better sooner than later.

I'm not immune, mind you, and am not trying to be holier-than-anybody. A world with muscle cars is simply not sustainable.

[CRF450]

21. That kind of thinking has got to stop.

[underpants]

34. Not until you pry my penis from my COLD DEAD HAND!!!

or something like that

[saigon68]

37. LOL

[Javaman]

55. what scares me IS world without muscle cars...

what would replace all that testosterone that is pent up waiting to be shown off in very needless and wasteful ways?

[Orsino]

58. I'm hoping that the idiots would join me...

...in comparing the sizes of our mpg.

[sakabatou]

19. O NOES!

:eyes:

[DCKit]

22. Electric or Air Hybrids would restore the performance.

Current battery technology limits the amount of energy captured by regenerative braking to 15%. The new lithium batteries would vastly increase that percentage, as would "air braking" which is being tested on the tractors that haul trailers. Both forms would provide the "kick" to accelerate the car in traffic or a dead stop.

So many excuses, yet so many options. Give it the hell up already Detroit. Haven't you done enough environmental damage and lost enough market share to Japan by stalling, obfuscating and fighting the inevitable?

[boricua79]

23. so? Why do we need "high performance" vehicles?

Either we need small ones for most people to transport themselves...or some people that work in fields where cargo is a necessity need larger ones for that purpose.

I'm not going to cry because little-dick men can't get their erection fantasies with their big-boy Hot wheels cars anymore. Suck it up and learn to find something new to put your mind to.

and GM...suck on this. Never been an American car buyer...

[CRF450]

24. Why bring up the "little penis" comments for those who like performance cars?

Do you know how disrespectfull that is to us?!

[Pastiche423]

31. Truth = disrespectful?

[CRF450]

32. It is absolutly not the truth, just blind assumptions.

It is a hobby that I support, I like to work on and modify high performance cars. It is also a matter of taste because I like a fast sporty coupe. It has not a goddamn thing about "penis extensions" or any of that stupid bullshit being spewed out here. I hang out at many car clubs and the people I meet who have high performance/exotic cars are mostly very decent people who have worked hard to afford and enjoy the experience of owning a great car.

[Pastiche423]

33. Uh huh

Btw, that's a great hobby to have while we are in the midst of Climate Change. :sarcasm:

[CRF450]

38. I have a Dodge Dakota and it gets much worse MPG than my Trans Am

It averages around 16mpg and while the T/A averages up to 23mpg. The truck is for work and hauling my dirtbike to the local track BTW.

V8 powered cars today are not gas guzzlers like they were 30 years ago.

[madrchsod]

42. i had a 72 formula 400 that got 15 tops

open hood scoops and exhaust opening at the rear wheel opening...i sold it because gas became to expensive it went up to 75ct a gallon..

[CRF450]

49. Bet that was an awsome car!

That was back just before the EPA killed the muscle cars. Right after that, GM couldn't make a 350 v8 with more than 180hp and meet the fuel efficiency requirements. Now they have a 7.0 427ci. 505hp v8 that gets up 30mpg on the highway, namely the Z06 Vette.

[RexDart]

65. My stepfather had one of those.

Some limited number, special edition thing. It was godawful fast. He passed away about 15 years ago, but if I close my eyes, I can still hear the rumble of it as it came down the drive. When he died, the car sat out for two years before we sold it at a give away price. It was just way to much car for either my mother or I.

He told me this story once about pulling up to a red light next to a Porsche. The Porsche driver was all exxcited and was expressing a desire to race. My stepfather nodded and revved it a little be to make some noise. He also noticed out of the corner of his eye the police cruiser half a block down the road. The light goes green, and the Porsche rips down the road. My stepfather just sits there until the cop lights up, and then procedes to make a right turn...

Only once did he really open it up with me in the car. It was on 5 between Sacramento and 205. It was magic. I don't know how fast we were going, I gave up trying to count fenceposts. The good news is that that seemd to get all that out of my system. I ended up going toward weenie cars. My first car was a Honda 600, as was my second. Great cars, although they were not the babe magnets I'd hoped they be...

I do have a project car now, a 61 Metropolitan. The stock 1500cc is shot, so I'm going to upgun it a little with an 1800cc out of an MG.

[boricua79]

78. do you need the non-truck?

Keep the truck for work...buy a gas efficient for other stuff. If you can't afford both, keep just the truck.

the Trans Am is not needed. And you're desire to have your "candybar" is imposing on a world that 1) is running out of oil, and 2) is suffering major climate change. Do your part.

I load my Honda Civic with music performing equipment...fits all types of things (drums, percussion, etc.) Still doing my small part for saving gas and not being wasteful.

[madrchsod]

40. sorry.... your reasoning is way off.

most if not all improvements in auto design and safety comes from auto racing or developing systems for high performance automobiles. traction control,anti roll technology,disc brakes,anti lock braking,electronic speed controls,were first developed for formula one racing. what is now standard equipment in the uber fast 300 s class mercedes benz will be standard equipment in most production cars over the next ten years.

[Pastiche423]

41. My "reasoning" comes from three decades

of dating men w/BIG engines.............in their cars.

[tabasco]

43. Japan must be kicking ass on the racetrack.

BEST MPG

OVERALL
Toyota Prius 48 45
SMALL CARS
Toyota Yaris 29 36
Toyota Yaris 29 35
Toyota Corolla 28 37
MIDSIZE CARS
Toyota Prius 48 45
Nissan Altima Hybrid 35 33
Toyota Camry Hybrid 33 34
LARGE CARS
Honda Accord Man 22 31
Honda Accord Auto 21 31
Hyundai Sonata 21 31

[CRF450]

48. Its largly safety features, not stuff for better fuel milage

Even with that, engines have gotten more powerful while mantaining the same or better fuel milage. They could gain more if they werent getting so damn heavy these days.

[AngryAmish]

56. Multivalve piston heads started in racing

Really improved milage, electronic fuel injection, lightweight materials (though cars are still to heavy).

[dansolo]

129. Isn't that because of the safety equipment

I was under the impression that a lot of added weight in newer cars is due to all of the new safety equipment.

[boricua79]

79. oh...so we should tolerate the hobbies of wasteful speed racers

so that we get the trickle-down effects of their developments.

How about doing the research regarding "disc brakes, anti roll technology, etc.) without actually selling performance cars or wasting BILLIONS of gallons of gasoline on never ending races around a Mouse track. Seriously, Nascar racing is about as exciting as seeing a hampster going around on a wheel. And it's so characteristically American...wasteful, worthless, and nets the "sportsmen" nothing in return (no physical gain, no healthy body, nothing.) the rest of the world has to play soccer with household materials as goal tends and a cheap ball...but America, because its exceptional of course, gets to waste valuable HUMAN resources on meaningless drag races, speed races, etc.

The mental troglodytes can get their hampster track races when humanity has a non-polluting, non-consuming renewable energy vehicle. otherwise, it's arrogant, it's polluting, and it's wrong.

[CRF450]

90. How the hell is racing so "american" when the rest of the world does the same thing?

Motorsports is a highly valued sport all over the world, not just here.

[boricua79]

103. not according to Wikipedia

it's an American born "sport"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_car_racing

I'll give you that they do it in other countries as well, but I'm for removing it. And if it began here, it's American.

[CRF450]

111. Wheather you like it or not, I'm keeping my current car and hobby

And my dirtbike. When car makers release an affordable high performance vehicle, I'll gladly buy it. In the mean time, I'm sticking with what I got. Same deal for the dirtbike. I enjoy the speed and adrenaline rush, the feeling of flying through air for 50+ft, and work out of riding on a motorcross track.

And I though the democratic party is a party of acceptance, cause I'm not seing it in this thread.

Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUdACjl9f-Y

[pipoman]

112. Its always easier to sacrafice other people's

rights, enjoyment, hobbies, etc. for the greater good. If you were really that energy conscious you would shut off your computer, lights, TV, turn the A/C off in the summer, etc. People who burn more gas pay more taxes, maybe if some of those gas taxes were going to R&D for alternative fuels it would be a good trade off. I personally don't go to or watch auto racing, I don't own a race car and never will.

Just say'n.

[fascisthunter]

120. lol... That's The Type of Talk That Drives

some folks nuts. Take away their toys and OH BOY!!!!

Global warming? Nah... who cares.

[lumberjack_jeff]

118. No, you should tolerate them because it's the tolerant thing to do. n/t

[AdHocSolver]

67. The problem is the gas burning internal combustion engine in your "muscle" car.

A properly designed electric motor can give you faster acceleration, give double or triple the equivalent MPG for whatever fuel is used to charge the batteries, produce almost zero pollution, cost less to operate and maintain, and last almost indefinitely. The Tesla electric vehicle, for example, can go from zero to 60 MPH in about four seconds.

The only downside is that there is very little noise, since there are no explosions occurring in eight cylinders as you drive. The solution I recommend is to install a high-powered stereo amplifier and speaker system and play a tape of a NASCAR race at full volume while you accelerate, to get the same effect of your "muscle" car without wasting oil or causing pollution.

[CRF450]

73. The Tesla Roadster is an awsome car and all,

But can I afford it? NO, and very few people except the wealthy will buy it. Untill the automakers make an affordable electric powered performance car I'm sticking with my current car, sorry if you dont like that but thats just how it is. Same deal for my 16mpg truck, I have it because of a job I do, and it provides other utility needs for me that a small 4cyl truck cant. Nobody makes an electric truck either.

[boricua79]

80. hahaha...I love you adhocsolver

that was the most inventive "zing" I've ever read on DU. Props!

[lumberjack_jeff]

119. An electric/biodiesel/hydrogen hybrid is the performance grail.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/120/motorhead-messiah.html

[boricua79]

77. that you know off...

Nobody said they were not decent. I just said that they're getting their little boy unconscious cock battles done through their riding the road in a more "powerful" car. It's always about that. And if the price to pay to end wasteful gas usage is to eliminate performance cars that serve no useful purpose, so be it.

Besides, as has been posted on this thread, electric cars and others can be more powerful. You can go green and get your penis erection too!

[CRF450]

91. Will you stop that penis bullshit already?!

Yes electric motors can be more powerful, and its greener 0 pollution. Currently no one makes an electric high performance car except Tesla. I have complete support for alternative fuel cars, and I would love to have one, they're just not here yet. And current hybrids dont appeal to me at all, so I'm not gonna dish out 30 grand just for another 20 or so mpg in a car that drives like shit.

[boricua79]

104. Why does the "penis" stuff bother you somuch

Me Thinks someone doth protest too much.

No need to get huffy about it. I have my opinions about why men drive performance cars and deep inside, even if they're unconscious of it, it's about command and power on the road...a sense of control and overwhelming presence. All of these have to do with Alpha Maleness and competition. But, I don't have the time to break it down for you.

The sexual "penis" thing aside, it's wasteful and unnecessary. If you REALLY MUST HAVE a sportscar, wait until more environmentally friendly ones exist, and then buy one. Until then, do the Beta Male thing and get to work or places with a Honda Civic (like me) or a Hybrid.

[CRF450]

110. The amount of gas that performance cars, or motorsports in general use...

Is a drop in the bucket compared to what the whole population uses daily. Wheather it be a gas sipping Civic, or a gas guzzling Tahoe.

[Owl]

85. Amen! I've the same hobby. You're post is spot on!

[CRF450]

88. Thank you!

[tchunter]

62. it is disrespectful...

its the same argument that those who disapprove of guns use, just bringing up genitalia. The poster has a hobby, god forbid, and has already illustrated that muscle cars can get decent gas mileage (as high as 30mpg) and your only retort is to bring up his junk? que?

i think its a myth that performance and efficiency cannot be synonymous.

[boricua79]

81. when they develop a car

that doesn't waste resources or pollute, then hobbyists can get their "non-penis-related (wink, wink)" sports cars. The world needs non-polluting cars to transport people, not to get a 'high'...

or mental orgasm...

or whatever you want to call it.

[boricua79]

76. hey, God made you how you are.

and he loves you...and besides, wasn't it all about the motion in the ocean...(snicker, snicker)..ahem...

[The Traveler]

57. Have you ever heard of this thing called "fun"

You should try it sometime. Having fun that is. It might make you less judgmental.

As a long time gear head, I took pride in recently building a small block Chevy engine that generated 350 horses at 4500 RPM and beat 1991 emission standards by 15%. Building that car engine programming its brain was ... here's that word again ... fun. And good exercise. Of course, this is not the kind of thing that everyone finds fun ... but a lot of people do.

Of course, men who cannot find their dicks usually compensate by insulting those who do.

Installed in what used to be a 1991 Camaro RS, this engine also generates a lot of fun on track or lonely winding country road. Adrenalin. Fun.

But the GM dude quoted above has it wrong. In my experience, more stringent environmental laws have never doomed the muscle car. It just stimulates auto engineers and gear heads to make better muscle cars. (Have you heard of the Tesla ... electric dragster that is smoking everyone at the track these days.)

I am not entirely sure why so many environmentally concerned people also project this judgmental, puritanical no-one-should-have-fun vibe. I'm environmentally concerned and I like to have fun. Don't think there is necessarily a conflict here.

[boricua79]

82. Yipee! Let's have "fun!"

I have SO much fun riding a car that makes so much noise! YIPEE!

I have so much fun tweaking it, and putting new parts in it that will it make faster...oh...how good it's going to feel when I slow down parallel to some yuppie suburbanite with some piece of crap Toyota Prius and who thinks he's going to beat my little machine...yes, I luvyou,wuvyou, little car of mine...muah, muah, muah...

I have so much wasting all that gas...but hey, I got a job. Who cares about the world's resources or pollution. and my children...well...shit...sucks to be them.

Yipee...I'm going to take my fun car to the racetrack...go around it like a hampster...500 times...yeay!

Yipee...maybe afterwards I'll be able to suck on the little plastic tube and drink my little, wittle water.

Yipee!

[dropkickpa]

86. I'm a chick

No dick in sight at all. But I love muscle cars. I must want to be a man, going by your logic.

[CRF450]

87. Yes, their are many women who drive a fast car and are involved in motorsports

And its great to see one here who can help put that stupid myth to rest.:hi:

[dropkickpa]

93. Fast cars aren't just toys for boys!

No matter what Mattel tells us!

[boricua79]

105. hey, how the hell do I know your testorone levels

or the extent of your masculine traits? That's up in the air and for debate.

Might be for some other reasons for you, but not to guys.

And forget the penis issue...I'm more concerned about the wasteful/pollution argument. Can't you find a hobby that doesn't involve wasting your own money, the precious small reserves of gas we have left in this world, and that doesn't pollute?

take up an instrument...that's what I did. I feel fulfilled..and I make money off it as a musician too.

[dropkickpa]

106. I'm a shitty fucking musician

And I resent that you still seem to think liking cars is somehow related to testosterone or that you are assuming I have masculine traits. I suppose if I said I was all about shoes you'd think that was gender appropriate.

BTW, I don't even own a car, I walk or take public transit everywhere, so your assumptions are again wrong, color me surprised.

[boricua79]

107. i hate girls with lots of shoes

too high maintenance...you shouldn't have to own more than 5 or 6 pairs of shoes. Sneakers, sandals, winter sandals, running shoes/gymshoes, One pair of formal black shoes, and if you must, one pair of formal brown shoes. That's about it.

and if you do walk and take public transit everywhere, good for you! Excellent. Keep it up.

Since I have to take equipment around to performances, I, sadly, must use a car. WHen I did buy a car with my meager resources, I bought myself a cheap Civic, $5,000, used. Small, efficient, gets me where I need to go.

I never assumed you had a car. I just mentioned that I think race car driving is wasteful and that it often is related to men's penis issues. Have a good day!

[TommyO]

99. If the situation were different and a comment about "little-breast women" were made

there would rightfully be outrage, but since it's against men, I guess it's OK to be disparaging, right?

[lumberjack_jeff]

116. Bite my tiny little wiener.

I'll keep my musclecar, and your contempt of it really matters little to me.

[kestrel91316]

27. ZOMG!!!! You don't say.

[Historic NY]

28. Thats a bunch of bull, the Corvette is the GM show piece...

of technology and engineering. Whats goes on a Corvette eventually makes it to other production vehicles. Horsepower has gone up and mileage with it, why because of cleaner more efficient engines and computers. The Retro look down the muscles car lanes is not going to end because it fuels the R&D that makes other vehicles possible. Greening muscles cars has been in the works for sometime, just look at the SEMA shows to see the new wave in fuel efficient muscle. The baby boomers need the excitement and it sells. There are now 3-4 trim and horsepower option levels of Corvettes being produced, and not everyone buys the ZR1.

[CRF450]

29. Yup, the ZR1 is gonna be twice as much as a base model Vette

The Corvette is a perfect example that if GM gets their shit strait, they can build a truly awsome car that dominates the competition. The Corvette does that while costing less, and getting much better fuel milage than the exotic cars from Europe.

[Historic NY]

46. I'll take one in yellow w/auto..........

I priced one and it was cheaper than a new Yukon/Tahoe. Why not have some fun with my money. I'm spending it so others won't have to.

[CRF450]

95. Exactly.

I'm spending my money on what I want within my means. The nay sayers here can bite me.

[Owl]

136. The Corvette has been and is a wonderful vehicle

in which to introduce and showcase marvelous technological advances.

[truthisfreedom]

30. Electric cars have the potential to have more muscle than anything else ever experienced.

You don't need gas to have get up and go!

[madrchsod]

35. simple- they shop out the car to a second or third party

they got around the corporate ban on racing back in the 60`s by selling parts for the racers to use. a local racer who was big time had blocks cast to his specs., the blocks had no numbers just his initials. there are ways around this problem just exempt a limited amount of high performance cars.

[ileus]

36. I think a 60K+ price tag will keep it from harming the earth.

You're not going to see ZR1's pop up in every driveway like the Chevettes of the 80's.

[sarcasmo]

39. Cry me a river. It should read, could bring and end to the Humvee.

[Infinite Hope]

44. Good. n/t

[Downtown Hound]

45. Whatever. 5 or 10 years from now they'll make one that

runs on hydrogen or ethanol. In World War 2 Americans rationed everything from fuel to rubber. These days we bitch about giving up our freakin' muscle cars in order to secure our future. Pathetic.

[underpants]

47. Great point

Gotta go shopping as ordered

[JCMach1]

50. And why do people need to go 200mph?

Answer, they don't...

Come to the UAE and I will scare you out of wanting too many people with muscle cars... :(

[bklyncowgirl]

51. People will always find a way to go faster than the other guy.

The market will find a way to feed that craze--now they'll have to do it without destroying the planet. There'll be nostalgia, of course, the quiet whirr of an electrical engine just doesn't have that satisfying RRRROOOAAAARRRRR.

Maybe they could just program internal combustion noises into the hybrids.

RRRROOOOAAAARRR!

[Pavulon]

52. Ein 911 Turbo

meets the emission criteria and is obviously capable of high performance.

There will always be a buy around for these issues.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

53. The 157 mpg Loremo AG would end our dependence on foreign oil.

Mandate it or it's ilk. Problem solved.








http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/02/loremo_ag_157_m.php

[tabasco]

61. Suuuure.... we'll get right on it!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

64. It's worse than that, I fear...

[Yuugal]

121. How bad is it?

[Blue_Tires]

63. well, i'm not even sure what the ZR1 is supposed to accomplish

when the current Z06 is such a good performer...that R+D could be better used in improving the regular everyday passenger vehicles, which GM depends upon for survival...

the quotes from Juechter are pretty much just scare tactics (they were using the same line again gore in 2000), and makes as much sense as "the Dems will outlaw all guns/corporations/christianity/SUVs, etc....If they get elected!!!")

...There will always be a market for HI-PO cars, and GM in the meantime has plenty to worry about in other car segments

[Triana]

68. Well, the poor knuckle-draggers who drive the phallus-on-wheels models

...will just have to find another way to compensate for their *cough* physical inadequacies and subsequent insecurities about themselves, won't they?

There will be other 'big horsepower' placebos to salve their insecurities, I'm sure.

[Yuugal]

123. I've got a low cost solution

I put mine in a glass of water. Looks freakin hugh!!!!!!

[Triana]

127. Bwahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Thx Yuugal. I needed that - now my sides hurt from laughing and I've got coffee spew all over my screen! (yea, coffee at THIS hour...I know)

[killbotfactory]

69. Is that a threat?

Do they realize high-performance cars are being made that run on clean fuel and/or electricity? No, of course not.

[Occulus]

70. New power sources have nothing at all to do with it

And better engineering has less to do with it.

Get with the program!

:sarcasm:

[Nailzberg]

72. The *Corvette* could be an endangered species?

Fuck that. We could be an endangered species.


GM's engineers are just gonna have to find new and exciting concepts within new guidelines, cause I kinda like the ice caps.

[IDemo]

84. Looks like everyone will be left driving those lame little Smart Cars, eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi_CgGGDglY&feature=related

[humbled_opinion]

89. I really wish the price would come down on hybrids..

Why doesn't a presidential nominee champion that effort in other words tax incentives...(SUBSTANTIAL) to cover the cost of switching out to a hybrid... in other words when I go to buy my next car if the green car is prohibitive in cost I'll just have to suck up the gas guzzler but if there is incentive I will switch...

[bamacrat]

92. I wish someone would design a 500 hp biofuel engine, that also got 30+ mpg.

There must be an extremely powerful alt. fuel engine that can run as hard as a gas engine before most of MMMrrkans will embrace alternative fuels or environmentally safe engines. Sadly most of our government is inhabited by these people.

[Robin Hood 991]

94. There should be an exemption for low volume cars (selling less than 10,000 units per year)

All others should go to 50 MPG

[Political Heretic]

97. THE HUMANITY! O THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*snore*

[and-justice-for-all]

98. Good riddence to bullshit autos...

Now where the fuck is my EV?!

[pipoman]

101. I don't buy or drive muscle cars

nor do I buy new cars. But damn do I tire of reading infantile comments of immature sexist females and males with inadequacy complexes relating to penis/phallus regarding anything they don't personally like. There isn't one single poster in this thread who is doing EVERYTHING they possibly can to be green, not one. They spend their time worrying about the interests of others an fail to review their own consumption. If you can't make your point without being completely rude you sway nobody and really don't have a point.

[eringer]

102. It could really be an endangered species--GM looking into the mirror

They should quit balling and get back to work on the Chevy Volt. They promised the car by 2010 and I am making them stick to their promise. No Volt, no more GMs in the future.

[Honeycombe8]

108. A scare tactic. He's saying "Don't vote for those greenie Dems in '08!" nt

[Xenotime]

109. Good.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

113. First they came for the Irocs. . . .

then they came for the Drakkar Noir. . .

[mahatmakanejeeves]

114. Forget it, CRF450. The collective "wisdom" of DU is

that Detroit should hire more unicorns and shamans and fewer engineers. You rebuild engines, and you're trying to argue with people who think that reading the owner's manual is beneath their dignity. They're the know-it-all Democrats who drive everyone else up the wall with their constant lectures. They won't be happy until you're wearing a hair shirt and eating tree bark.

Enjoy your hobby. Good for you. Season's greetings.

PS - the last time I looked, from the waist down, I look just like Kevin Zegers.

[CRF450]

115. It makes me think "why am I even here?"

I'm with everyone here in trying to get Bush out of office and to have real president. But its as if I'm being told what to do and what not to do, what I can buy and what I cant buy in my daily life. I'm getting disgusted with the snarky attitudes here against another's personal hobby and choices, namely motorsports involvment.

Its as if this party is no different than the rightwings when we, the people in the middle are being told what to do what not to do by either side. Its making me sick of politics.

[lumberjack_jeff]

117. It has nothing to do with the middle.

It's about dogma. Some people have a strongly conceived notion of what it means to be a democrat.

Bush and Republicans need to go and society needs to care for its members. Beyond that, agreement is not necessary.

[tabasco]

124. I suppose someone is holding a gun to your head.

The internet is a rough place. If you can't handle it, get a subscription to Reader's Digest.

[AdHocSolver]

132. Ignore the nasty ad hominem attacks. The problem is with the auto companies and Big Oil.

We have the problem with the corporations because of the ignorance of people, including many here on DU, about how the system works.

As I wrote in an earlier reply, the technology exists to get better gas mileage out of all vehicles. It is the corporate average fuel efficiency values that cause the problems with high gasoline costs and pollution. The problem is that the Big Three auto companies refuse to engineer vehicles with lower weight and more efficient drive trains.

The auto companies have sold the public a bunch of nonsense that big, heavy, oversized trucks and SUV's are "safer". Statistics show that the excessive weight and size of these vehicles, which gives them a higher center of gravity and makes more difficult to control, makes them more difficult to avoid problems and likely to cause serious injury in an accident, including to their occupants.

There are many more large trucks and SUV's on the road than muscle cars. Typically there is only one person riding in these huge vehicles. Driving such guzzlers with one person in them to work or to the mall for shopping is a huge waste of gasoline, not to mention dangerous for the rest of us on the road. Many who drive these huge vehicles seem to have a problem keeping them under control, they are hard to see around, and they take up way to much space when parked. I find large trucks and SUV's much more problematic than "muscle" cars.

With gas prices increasing, many people are buying Japanese branded cars which, across the board, get better gas mileage. The poorer sales by the Big Three has not led them to improve the MPG of their vehicles. Instead, they blame the workers for their lost profits (rather than lost sales because they insist on selling "gas guzzlers"), and then they off-shore more jobs.

We need to do what was done in the 1970's after the "Arab oil embargo". The government mandated fuel efficiency standards and imposed stiff fines for noncompliance. That drove many improvements in the Big Three cars.

Again, ignore the snide remarks about you. I always thought that people who insisted on buying huge trucks and SUV's just to commute were the ones with the ego problems. Enjoy your Trans Am and continue to fight the right-wing.

[CRF450]

133. Cant just blaim the big 3 for low fuel milage though

Their regular and compact cars arent as fuel efficient as the imports, but when you get into high performance cars, SUV, truck, and others in between classes, the fuel milage ratings really arent much different. Hell, I considered a Infinity G35 coupe as daily driver car to keep the miles off the T/A, its a much smoother riding and built much bette, yet the 300hp v6 doesn't get any better fuel milage than the T/A.

When I was looking for a truck, I looked at the 05+ Toyota Tacomas that are a 4x4 and 4 door crew cab models, their fuel milage with the v6 really isn't much better than the Dakotas of a similar configuration with the 4.7 v8. I picked the Dakota cause it was much cheaper, I dont mind that its a tiny bit bigger, but its been a great truck.

My aunt has an 07 Ford Freestyle (a crossover SUV) that she traded her 04 Nissan Quest in for. Mainly for financial reasons cause the freestyle is much cheaper, she couldn't afford the keep the Quest, a big plus for that trade is the Freestyle gets better fuel milage, 24mpg average and 29mpg highway. The Quest seemed to have never gotten over 21mpg!

[DuaneBidoux]

122. I wanted to buy a Mustang Cobra but my insurance rates convinced me better.

I've always had a politically incorrect weakness for fast women and fast cars but if the government finally gets the will to get tough I will gladly give up my fast cars.

[fortyfeetunder]

125. ...and GM's point is?

Maybe there is a *demand* for high performance vehicles, but I daresay the average American is looking for fuel economy because gas prices are destined to be higher than lower...I don't think GM gets it....

[depakid]

134. "I don't think GM gets it...."

Nor do certain posters.

The economics of petroleum depletion will spell the end of wasteful muscle cars- and the irony is that if Detroit had been compelled by regulations 15 years ago, they might have been able to serve that market for somewhat longer with less financial pain.

Seems to me like a poster upthread got it right- it's group think, with no one able to see beyond the 20th Century paradigm.

Almost like some collectively planned obsolescence.

[Alexander]

126. Cars? A species? Gimme a break.

[Zhade]

130. "Waaaah!"

Too bad, all you greedy machismo-drunk fools - you don't get to drink the dwindling oil supply all by yourselves.

Cry me a fucking river.

[MadHound]

135. This bullshit was predictable. Automakers whined and whimpered about this in the mid '70s

When the first CAFE standards were implemented. Detroit predicted doom and gloom, that muscle cars and luxury cars and everything but small tiny econo-boxes would go the way of the dinosaur with a fuel standard of 22mpg. Some muscle cars went the way of the dinosaur, but most of them survived and thrived. In fact higher CAFE standards led to more efficient engines, thus getting more power out of less weight, which actually improved the performance of muscle cars.

But here they are, whining again. Ignore them, they will find a way to survive and thrive.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

137. Tell that to Tesla Motors.

Or is it not considered a "Muscle Car" if it's not destroying the planet?