Lakota Tribe Disavows Treaties, Declares Independence

[rolleitreks]

Source: AFP

"The Lakota Indians, who gave the world legendary warriors Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, have withdrawn from treaties with the United States, leaders said Wednesday.

"We are no longer citizens of the United States of America and all those who live in the five-state area that encompasses our country are free to join us," long-time Indian rights activist Russell Means told a handful of reporters and a delegation from the Bolivian embassy, gathered in a church in a run-down neighborhood of Washington for a news conference.

A delegation of Lakota leaders delivered a message to the State Department on Monday, announcing they were unilaterally withdrawing from treaties they signed with the federal government of the United States, some of them more than 150 years old."

Read more: http://nz.news.yahoo.com/071220/8/3db9.html

---

This could be very interesting, if it gets to court.

[Donnachaidh]

1. Bet Bush didn't see this one coming

:rofl: Good for them. :bounce:

[caraher]

17. Why, he's been on top of this for a long time...

Who can forget these words of wisdom:

"Tribal sovereignty means that; it's sovereign. I mean, you're a — you've been given sovereignty, and you're viewed as a sovereign entity. And therefore the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities."

Immortalized by YouTube

[Submariner]

135. Yeah, I saw that speech

One of mental midget's finest moments.

[valerief]

248. I thought it was his comedy act, not a legit speech. You mean he wasn't trying to be funny? nt

[Sequoia]

34. Well, considering how he thinks:

"Tribal sovereignty means that; it's sovereign. I mean, you're a -- you've been given sovereignty, and you're viewed as a sovereign entity. And therefore the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities." --Washington, D.C., Aug. 6, 2004


Those Lakota's are so cool !!! Where can I sign up!?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

62. Depends on who you talk to

Heyokas will allow non-Lakota into ceremony, and I know of Cherokees and Choctaws who have been adopted into the Lakota because they follow the Red Road.

My husband is a pipe carrier in the Lakota tradition; his spiritual advisor is, like him, part Cherokee.

[roguevalley]

120. This is good news. When the bonds are too tight, you fight. (Paraphrase

of the Constitution.) They never broke a treaty until now. Good for them.

[Truth2Tell]

204. Makes me feel like listening to

a little Rage Against the Machine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdhk3kau3yI

[nebenaube]

278. hmmm

cherokee and choctaw... Living on Ojibwa land... I'm there...

[Gonnuts]

153. I was thinking the same thing ...

but how do I get to become an Indian? I guess I can say I'm from the long lost tribe of Southern Italy's Dakota Tribe and see if that floats ...

[Bitwit1234]

73. And he has to admit they are only doing what he does

he with draws from treaties when ever he wants, why can't they. Give them their land back.

[Ignis]

88. Exactly! Shrub cancels treaties right and left.

It's about time he got a taste of his own medicine.

[defendandprotect]

212. Are you kidding . . . ? The PNAC probably already has plans to bomb them --- !!!

[jwirr]

256. Or just move them further west onto some very dry land. With no mineral

rights of course.

[BridgeTheGap]

2. The Lakota are warriors and this is real challenge to the Feds

it's either going to the courts or, once again, the battlefield.

[MADem]

37. One would hope it wouldn't come to the battlefield, because it would be a short battle. nt

[Xithras]

132. Considering that they're less than 10% of the population in the states they're claiming.

Yeah, a very short battle indeed. While there are some reservations and communities in the area with a high density of Native Americans, they are today only a tiny minority of the population in their former lands. In some dense counties they may make up nearly 10% of the population. In most counties it's less than 5%, in quite a few it's under 1%.

I don't see an armed rebellion any time in the near future. That's gun country, where practically everyone hunts and has weapons of some sort. For the Dakota to establish a nation they will need to drive over 90% of the population out, and they don't stand a chance against an armed local populace. And that's without the military.

An actual armed rebellion or an attempt to govern those lands independently would be crushed within hours, and it would be used as an excuse to strip them of the last of their native rights. Those involved would be sent to prison en masse, the leaders would be executed for treason (they'll never let Means turn into another cause celebre like Mumia), and their reservations would be disbanded.

My wife is Native American (Osage) so I really do feel for their position and understand the source of their frustration, but this move is stupid and pointless. At the least it's going to generate divisiveness and animosity. At the most it's going to lead to a lot of dead natives and the destruction of their society.

[MADem]

134. I agree with your thesis and conclusions entirely. NT

[frogcycle]

192. all well and good

but the "troubles" in N. Ireland, the ongoing strife in Iraq, the VN war, all would suggest they can make it really tense for a long, long time if they so choose. It's called asymmetric warfare, and I expect they have learned something from history, even if gwb has not.

Unless and until he decides to do a Waco, they can make a lot of mischief if they want.

[Xithras]

199. It wouldn't get that far.

This is America, not Ireland. We have more guns in our homes than many nations have in their armies. After one or two bus bombings, one or two families taken out by IED's, or one or two innocent farmers gunned down by Lakota nationalists, you'll have every racist and redneck in the region taking potshots at anyone with even vaguely dark skin. We Americans panic easily, and many Americans first respond by running for their guns.

There are millions of people in Iraq, and millions more in Ireland. There are only about 75,000 Lakota, including the elderly and young. Assymetric warfare tends to have a high mortality rate for both sides, and the Lakota don't have the numbers to sustain a war like that. When you factor in the death count once Joe Average starts gunning down every group of red people he sees because they MIGHT be terrorists, we're talking about a genocidal population drop.

Anyone who thinks the Lakota have even the SLIGHTEST chance of winning a war of independence is deluding themselves.

[frogcycle]

234. didn't say they'd win

just that if they do decide to assert themselves they can be pesky for a long, long time. And you are right, it would likely hurt them more than help them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

266. We're talking as if Bush the a-hole would be in power for the rest of his life...

... he doesn't have much longer as president. Soon, he'll be known as the worst former president in the history of our country.

[valerief]

251. Americans don't panic easily. Americans are easily incited by American media.

Without the corporate provocation, there would be no panic.

[TheMadMonk]

205. Be nice if some people learnt to read ALL of a post.

"...and all those who live in the five-state area that encompasses our country are free to join us,"

They are not seceding and telling palefaces to fuck off. They are inviting their pale, black, yellow and pink faced neighbours to join them in their secession.

[Xithras]

211. And why exactly would they do that?

Why would they give up their farm subsidies, their constitutional rights to guns and free speech, and their institutionalized white privilege to join with a Native American nation? Even more importantly, how would the Lakota react if all of their neighbors DID take them up on that offer? If the Lakota were to institute a new democratic national government, they would once again find themselves a minority within their own nation. With over 90% of the population in the region consisting of whites, the Lakota would once again find themselves dominated by the will of the white man. The fact that it can call itself a "Lakota Nation" would be inconsequential.

So the Lakota's have a choice. They could institutionalize themselves as the nations leaders in the constitution, which would undermine freedom and democracy within that nation, or they could accept the fact that they will continue to be the outvoted minority.

If the first path is taken, the neighbors will never go for it. If the second is taken, the nation might stand a remote chance of existing, but the Lakota will see no benefit from the move.

It's the same dilemma the Hawaiian secessionists face. The native Hawaiians also have a valid claim for independence, but they are also a tiny minority within their own lands. A free, independent, and democratic Hawaii would essentially be a white nation. So would a free, independent, and democratic Lakota nation.

[KamaAina]

333. Well, I wouldn't say a "tiny" minority; about 20% of island residents are Hawaiian

or at least part-Hawaiian; the notion of a specific "blood quantum" below which you don't qualify is extremely un-Polynesian and was (surprise!) imposed on us by the haoles in Congress.

A free, independent, and democratic Hawaii would essentially be a white nation.

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzt! Actually, the largest single ethnic group in Hawai'i today consists of those with Japanese ancestry, followed closely by haoles -- but then by Filipinos, Chinese, Koreans, and yes, Hawaiians. So while a Hawaiian nation might not be majority native Hawaiian, it wouldn't be majority haole either.

Mele Kalikimaka,
"Haole Boy" :-)

[ScooterFibby]

233. It would also be nice...

... if they described exactly what they meant by these phrases:

"all those who live in" - in reservations? outside them?

"The five-state area that encompasses our country" - what exactly do they consider is their country? How do they intend to proceed regarding territory?

"free to join us" - Join us for a rally? Join us politically? Become Lakotan?

The depth of imprecision for something so important is astounding.

[jwirr]

257. I was involved in Wounded Knee in the 70s and Russell Means

was one of the activists then. At that time he did not speak for all Lakota so is his status as a leader changed that he can do this without a tribal counsel backing him?

[LeftHander]

320. "it's going to lead to a lot of dead natives and the destruction of their society"

Already happened....more than once....

I completely think this is a good move...one it gets their issues into the media...and will show how racist South Dakota is when it comes to Native Americans...people out there are still irrationally afraid of Native Americans.

[RoccoR5955]

161. I would be willing to join them on the battlefield........ NT

[MADem]

163. Well, off you go, then. IMO, that's just idiotic. But hey, it's a free country!!! nt

[The Doctor.]

206. Was that an intentional joke?

If so, it was pretty funny.

[MADem]

268. I meant it with the full ironic intent.

Only a fucking IDIOT would pair up with such a lunatic cause. Death wish for lunkheads!

[iamahaingttta]

179. Short battle... like a cakewalk?

You just never know...

[MADem]

269. No. I DO know. It ain't the same.

They die young and they're easily swayed with booze and drugs. We aren't talking Allah's Army here. This whole construct is the imagining of a few outraged types. They don't have the rank and file behind them.


A force superior in numbers, with skills slightly exceeding those of Barney Fife, would manage the task. See, Barney doesn't drink much.

[winter999]

66. Guess they didn't read their history books to see what

happens to people who secede from the Union.

[defendandprotect]

213. The GOP still has "Indian Fighters" in Congress --- It's unbelievable--!!!!

And, the concept of this stolen land from day one is so strong that even one outspoken native American is a fright to them!!!

[theredpen]

3. I want to be a Lakota now.

Maybe our Democratic "leaders" will take some inspiration from people with a backbone.

[ozone_man]

214. I know, it's inspirational!

I wish we could take back our country. And it's not just from the Republicans, it's from the corporate Democrats too.

Who better to lead the way than Native Americans?

[lovuian]

4. Wow this is so cool

:woohoo:

[shenmue]

42. Are you serious?

You think this is some kind of a joke? They did it so some goofy white college kids could talk about how it's so rebellious?!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

65. It's anything but a joke

as anyone who has associated with the Lakota people know. Realize also that there is a division amongst the tribal elders about admitting non-Lakota into ceremony. Arvel Looking Horse, keeper of The Pipe, has said that non-Lakota should not participate in ceremony. Others allow all to come to the various ceremonies. Most of these are Hayoka.

[existentialist]

249. well,

I would agree that Arvol Looking Horse would probably not agree with nonIndians participating in some ceremonies, such as a sundance.

However, I am nonIndian, and have been present, and in some sense participated in four separate ceremonies where Arvol Looking Horse officiated--and he made me feel welcome.

[Bigmack]

5. This is a trick!

They just want War with the US government. They can then just lose quickly - without all that messy bombing - and get in on some of that "development" money the US is pissing away in Iraq! It seems like that's the only way anybody can spring some bucks out of this mis-administration.

Do I have to add :sarcasm: ?

[Spinzonner]

53. And they can change the tribal name to

the Grand Duchy of Fenwick

[Bigmack]

101. The Tribe that Roared! nt

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. Ho Metaquiastun!

I have friends who are Lakota and practice Lakota spirituality. If the US would follow the philosophy of the Lakota Nation, we'd be a lot better off.

A side note: At gatherings of Lakota, you often have an "Honor the Flag" ceremony, where the Stars and Stripes are brought out. What a lot of folks don't realize is the flag they are honoring is the one taken from Custer at Little Big Horn.

May their Nation rise again!

[Sequoia]

39. Oh that's wonderful to know...ha,ha Custer !!! Twerp.

[truedelphi]

156. Same flag that I honor.

This is a wonderful invitation.

Mark and I looked at each other and said Let's do it!

[TechBear_Seattle]

7. Legitimate or a hoax? n/t

[Synnical]

8. Lakota Male Life Expectancy = 44 Years Old!

WTF!?

From the end of the article:

Oppression at the hands of the US government has taken its toll on the Lakota, whose men have one of the shortest life expectancies -- less than 44 years -- in the world.

Lakota teen suicides are 150 percent above the norm for the United States; infant mortality is five times higher than the US average; and unemployment is rife, according to the Lakota freedom movement's website.

"Our people want to live, not just survive or crawl and be mascots," said Young.

"We are not trying to embarrass the United States. We are here to continue the struggle for our children and grandchildren," she said, predicting that the battle would not be won in her lifetime.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bagrman]

28. Standing up and being counted in the defence of your nation is never treason.

[shenmue]

43. Defending your country is not breaking away from it. It's called a civil war.

Everybody babbling about how great this is cannot possibly be one of these people. If it's real, it'll be nothing but a danger to them and their kids. Anybody remember what the FBI (rightfully) did to David Koresh?

...Exactly.

:dunce:

[bagrman]

47. Their already and independent nation.

[Stand and Fight]

302. They're or They are... NOT "Their" n/t

[bagrman]

319. Oops.

[Sequoia]

52. Wounded Knee 1973

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

72. How about Leonard Peltier? n/t

[shance]

247. That's an excellent question.

That I have wondered as well.

[f the letter]

83. er.. i'm curious how what the fbi did in waco was right??

i'm no branch davidian and David Koresh was a lunatic, but firebombing a building and shooting those (unarmed) people fleeing the flames seems less than right

[tavalon]

136. beat me to it!

[roguevalley]

122. The Constitution allows this. However, the facists in charge don't.

I admire the hell out of them.

[unpossibles]

304. Technically, they are in treaty with us, so it's not necessarily "breaking away from their country"

And the irony that it was "their country" long before we stole it, is hopefully not lost on you.

Furthermore, are you being serious that the FBI was right in killing the people at Waco?

[BearSquirrel2]

58. The confederates committed treason ...

The confederates who declared independence from the United States committed treason. Severing any portion of the United States is treason by definition.

I sympathize with the plight of the American Natives. They have been seriously dicked around by people in Washington in this century with regards to mineral and resource rights. At the same time, I realize that the existence of a mono corporate culture (the tribe itself) is ultimately non-competitive in modern economies. There is no entrepreneurial motivation. I don't mean this like some right wing dickhead. I mean regulated fair business practices that benefit both the worker and the entrepreneur, but rewards the entrepreneur more because he's the one who put his savings at risk for the endeavor.

The level of internal industry generated on reservations is the reason for the rampant unemployment and likely the rampant alcoholism. Yes the feds must stop dicking with them. At the same time, they need to get out of the 19th century and make fundamental reforms that allow individuals to operate separate from tribal monopolies on economic resources.

There are the extremes of communism and unregulated predatory capitalism. The state must find it's role as largely a referee for ethical conduct amongst individuals with ideas who are willing to risk their economic well being to try them. Until natives get rid of this extreme collectivism, I don't think you'll see any serious improvement even WITH the casinos.

http://www.perc.org/about.php?id=802

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

75. A reservation is Native land reserved for the tribe

that is the definition of the term, and that is what the treaties say. Lakota lands on reservations were never a part of the US, technically. Those lands have remained sovereign lands of the Lakota people.

[geardaddy]

92. The confederates weren't a sovereign nation. n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

95. The US government does not make treaties with American citizens.

If a treaty exists, it is with an already independent sovereign nation. Treason is not in question here - effectively, native americans have dual citizenship with their tribal nation and with the United States.

Your paternalistic attitude is exactly what they want to get away from.

[atreides1]

98. You might want to check your facts

See Below:

Nowhere in the US Constitution does it say that it's treason for a state to secede. If you can find evidence to the contrary I would like to see it.

The Civil War wasn't about treason, if it was then perhaps it was the Federal Government who could be leveled with that charge, seeing as how by forcing the Southern States to adhere to the laws of the central government, it violated the clause of States Rights.

Admittedly it was the South that fired the first shot.


Historical Context of Secessionism

We should begin with the ur-text of American history, the Declaration of Independence. Taken in a contemporary context, what might we make of this Declaration of the Thirteen States? As we all know, it asserts forthrightly that

when in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions
of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

The Declaration continues that

To secure these rights , Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, - - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


Of course, the Declaration does not have the status of law – but the U.S. Constitution does, and it nowhere prohibits secession. Nonetheless, after the American Civil War, the notion of secession in effect became anathema.

[ieoeja]

104. Prior to the South starting the Civil War...

... the only actions taken by the Federal goverment vis-a-vis States Rights and Slavery were against the free states in support of the slavers. The slavers did not rebel because of anything done against them, they rebelled because they lost the power (for at least four year) to force their will on the free states.

Secondly, there is no PERIOD after "States" in the 10th Amendment. It is a comma followed by "or to the People". The Federal gov't has, since the writing of the Constitution, been the determining power in deciding which rights belong to the States and which to the People (individual civil rights).

[knight_of_the_star]

330. Just to point out one thing you missed

The Constitution does not define secession as treason, but levying war against the US gov't in front of at least two witnesses, which the Confederacy certainly did without question, IS treason according to the Constitution.

That and Texas v. White ruled after the Civil War that secession is unconstitutional and therefore has no constitutional support.

[skepticscott]

145. Not really, no

The definition of treason is this: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Nothing else, including secession in and of itself, qualifies as treason. On the other hand, any confederates who participated in military action against the legitimate government of the United States in support of their secession WERE guilty of treason, regardless of who fired the first shot.

[texastoast]

202. Entrepreneurial motivation

comes for these people in the form of acreage.

However, I doubt that today's children whose "fathers" committed the sins against these people will step up to the plate and give them back enough land for the Lakota to be able return to their earth-oriented ways.

Long-term wisdom ways, sustainable ways of living, ways of living where the elders actually think about what effects their actions will have upon their children for generations to come.

What a concept. And, Jaysus, what would the Christians think about that?

[freedom fighter jh]

253. How is it treason to declare independence?

The Declaration of Independence states that government derives its just power from the consent of the governed. What is the meaning of consent if you cannot withdraw consent?

[nachoproblem]

286. You've heard of casinos some time in your life, yes?

Seems to me the native Americans have no lack of entrepreneurial interest WHEN THEY'RE ALLOWED TO BY THE STATE.

For more information about that you'd have to ask Abram Jackoff or his good friend, the Republican Party.

[bread_and_roses]

309. Oh, so the real problem is that Native American culture is not sufficienty capitalist?

Read much Any Rand, do we?

I don't know how much news you read, but capitalism happens to be - literally - destroying the earth's life-sustaining systems.

And no, not just the "bad" capitalists or the "irresponsible" capitalists or or or whatever the excuse is. Capitalism. Period.

Whatever the faults of their culture (and I have no rosy glasses about "noble savages," anymore than I do about my own Celtic ancestors), Native Americans managed to sustain themselves on this land for many thousands of years. How unbelievably arrogant to tell them that they would be better off if only "their" culture were more like "ours." We look likely to do ourselves and the rest of humanity in - not to mention every other living thing except maybe cockroaches - after a mere few hundred years of capitalism.

[Sequoia]

48. I suggest you read the history of the Plains Indians

You have no idea whatsoever what those people went through and are still going through. Raw deal? I tell you about a raw deal. You know that famous flag-rising photo from Iwo Jima, one of them was a Native American and after all the hoopla and photo ops back he went to the reservation and died in a damn ditch of muddy water because the f'ing federal government wouldn't lift a finger to help him. Most all the Native Americans were sent to reservations where the soil would not yield the food they needed to survive. And we have movie stars who think they're such good samaritans going to 3rd world countries helping them out when in our own back yard these people have been living in 3rd those conditions since the early 1900s. But what about the children!!! I'll tell you what about the children, they were taken from their homes and put in "schools" for years never being able to see their families and had their hair cut, were beaten for speaking their language, and died. There are no jobs for these people because no company wants to go there, so what do you expect?

Read the history and have some compassion for Christ's sake. (Rant over, head just exploded.)

[Goblinmonger]

50. Amen, brother

I spent the first 25 years of my life in ND. I have been to the reservations many times and it is just digusting what our government has done to these people.

[shance]

86. You're right Goblin. However I think we're all responsible when people are abused.

We and those world wide are responsible to stop the governmental war machines, banking cartels funding both sides of all wars, and those in Congress who are slaughtering innocent Iraqis and Afghanis by their own actions.

Those in Congress are equally guilty because they are funding the genocide and they know they are.

[defendandprotect]

215. So true, true, true . . . well written --- !!!

And those who know the truth of American history have a responsibility to the past to bring that truth forward.

And this betrayal by Democrats to not end this "illegal" war in Iraq is something which progressive/
liberal Democrats must see as a MORAL issue ---

[HughMoran]

59. Excellent post

You're rant was more than appropriate here...

[BearSquirrel2]

61. Documented in "Flag's of our Fathers"

Yes, that guy similar troubles as so many Native Americans. He was an alcoholic and had trouble finding a place in society. One of the other guys who survived was white. He had difficulty trading on his fame for being one of the flag raisers. He ended up as a janitor (which is a noble profession in my estimation). And the other guy worked for a funeral home which he eventually bought. He actively hid his role as a "flag raiser" at Iwo Jima from his own family. So what is your point?

I absolutely have compassion. Compassion isn't pretending that the buffalo will return. There is a serious lack of economic activity on reservations. Economies are started by small businesses. If your tribe prevents you from operating a small business because of collectivism, why should anyone be surprised that there are no jobs. Fair markets work on the premise that people have ideas and try them out. If they're right they get a larger share of the return then hired workers who do not risk savings in the endeavor. Take away this motivation, and there is no small business.

I am not a right winger. I believe in fair open markets regulated for ethical behavior. Don't expect American corporations to swoop into reservations and set up shop when they cannot even own the plot of land on which they operate their business. It's not going to happen.

I am not a right winger. I see compassion as a process of rectifying the situation, not bitching about the past. The American Natives were victims of a clash of economic systems, not of governments. What happened was inevitable. Waves upon waves of immigrants have come to the United States and adopted the "white ways" that helped them survive and prosper in modern economy of the United States. Insistence on living in the past will not bring jobs to reservations or abate alcoholism.

[Sequoia]

78. Did I say anything about the buffalo?

The cattle industry is a main reason for the buffalo's decline, not to mention the Buffalo Hunter and crazy British who had to bag a head from the safety of the brand new Iron Horse who's rails the buffalo would not cross. Buffalo were killed so the tribes would have no food, hides, etc. "Hey, grow some corn why doncha? Be like us, live in wooden houses, wear icky scratchy clothes, go to church for 8 hours on Sunday you heathen you!" Adopt the white ways like poor ole Ahnold had to do. Can't have him acting like an Austrian. (Remember his rant about immigrants). Lakato are NOT bleeding immigrants...WE ARE! YOU ARE! You talk like someone from the Guilded Age. I bet you never met a Native American in your life. Alcoholism is not limmited to Native Americans, and I don't see them wanting to live in TiPis and hunting buffalo; geez, give them credit. You act like they're all adults who still believe in Santa Claus.

[BearSquirrel2]

102. Speaking of cattle ...

The demise of the buffalo was inevitable and hastened by thoughtless sport hunting and deliberate efforts to bring tribes to heal. Don't think for a second that farmers would have tolerated buffalo ravaging their crops. Yes cattleman replaced buffalo with a bovine relative. They had already been domesticated. Speaking of which why is it that Native Americans never took up cattle as a business when cattleman make a good living on the same type of land? However, I would not suggest Indian tribes living in the upper plains grow corn. The land is unsuitable.

I do not talk like someone from the guilded age. I am not saying that Indians should adopt any white trait beyond some type of productive industry that provides economic sustenance. You can mock the integration movement of the late 1900s, but they foresaw the problem that Indians would have no way to sustain themselves if they did not integrate and it happened.

No there are no Native Americans who are immigrants. But the wave of civilization has rendered their economy obsolete. It would be in their interest to find some replacement. How can the Lakota call themselves an independent nation when they have no industry?

You can pretend that your so called empathy is helpful. It is not. You can bash the actions of past leaders, I do as well. It won't do a lick of good for any Native American person. There are changes that are needed with respect to both the federal government and tribal culture. Until both of these change, or every reservation gets a casino, I don't think you'll see conditions improve. And even if a tribe does get a casino, I don't think that will really help the alcoholism rate either.

[Sequoia]

112. Oh, I guess I forgt to rant about alcoholism.

I had no idea is was limmited to just the reservations.

[BearSquirrel2]

262. It's double the rate ...

Alcoholism is about double the rate on the reservations as it is in general US population.

[Sequoia]

318. Okay.

[whathappened]

128. hey take alook

the way the indians are living mite be a good picture to take you talk of industial nations , we have lost that edge to china , so it mite behove us to learn how to live off of the land fast , cause the way this country is headed we may have nothing here but a cow and a garden to feed our selfs with

[sagetea]

148. I don't think you get it...

Russel Means is the head of A.I.M ( American Indian Movement) He definitely wants a revolution, even after all this time, it is in their BLOOD.
It was predicted by a man named Wovoka, in the Ghost Dance. They (Lakota) are not alone. The Shoshone in Idaho and Northern Nevada, on September 9, 2001, gave a call to arms against the government to march to the White house on 9/11/01, it never happened...can you guess why???
I don't know if it is on the internet, I don't have time to look, but I do have inside information. I was wittiness to cell phone calls being blocked on the Owyhee Indian Reservation.The repeated abuse done in the last two decades to two elderly women named "The Dan Sisters" repealing the non-signed treaties made to the Shoshone Indians.
This is just the beginning, you can tell them they are all going to die, it won't matter, they will fight to the death, and sing "it's a good day to die" They are a "right brained people" they think different than whites, they are not afraid of death, they are more concerned about honor.
And I for one will pick up my weapons arm myself and fight gladly for whatever it takes to change the course of this country.

Ho`

[sendero]

305. According to OUR OWN BELIEF SYSTEM..

... the Native Americans would be LAWFULLY JUSTIFIED to slaughter us all and take back their land. Moron.

[texastoast]

207. You still don't get it at all

"Waves upon waves of immigrants have come to the United States and adopted the "white ways" that helped them survive and prosper in modern economy of the United States. Insistence on living in the past will not bring jobs to reservations or abate alcoholism."

Helped THEM survive. Oh, but what of their progeny? In the long term?

You see, WE made the mistake. WE chose to construct "economies" so that WE have to work our asses off and poison the earth at the risk of our children. WE CHOOSE to continue to do this.

THEY had it right to begin with and WE FUCKED IT SO UP, for them and for ourselves. WE can CHOOSE to change, but then we have to change.

They don't want "business" and I think anyone would be hard pressed to convince me that their way of life--20% of which was spent doing actual sustenance work and the remainder doing a lot of ceremonies, gaming, traveling, trading, feasting, and chilling--is worse than what "business" has brought about.

[BearSquirrel2]

264. Thank You

Well, at least someone here is being honest about the situation.

Very true, our current level of resource consumption is unsustainable. No doubt changes will have to be made int he future. But I wouldn't ever expect the buffalo to come back.

[defendandprotect]

217. The native Americans were victims of theft --- stolen land

and denial of opportunity ---

They have been blocked and had their assets stolen by government/corporates in every way possible ---
and when not outright stolen then stolen over years in every criminal way possible.

[progressive_realist]

280. Economic activity?

Small businesses? So if they only had nine-to-five office or factory jobs, they would be happy? Really? I think if you believe this, you will not only be unable to understand Native issues, but probably find yourself scratching your head a lot at human issues in general...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

89. Exactly right

The counties of South Dakota that are part of the Lakota reservations are literally the poorest in the nation.

This is not a matter of the Lakota "lacking entrepreneurial spirit." It's a matter of generations of abuse and neglect, leading to loss of pride and identity, chronic depression, and racism from the surrounding white communities.

It started when the Lakota, formerly nomadic, were forced to settle down and "farm" on land that wasn't good for farming. Then their children were taken away for years at a time, taught to forget and actually despise their native culture and language, and then sent back to the reservation, supposedly trained in "vocational" skills for which there was no market on the reservation.

As one who is self-employed, I think I know something about "entrepreneurial spirit" from the inside. The first thing you need is a product that people are willing to pay for. The second thing you need is a source of start-up money. The third thing you need is connections, people who will mentor you and even refer business to you. The fourth thing you need is self-confidence, based on a realistic assessment of what you have to offer.

To say that the Lakota should just "show some entrepreneurial spirit" shows a lack of understanding of conditions on the reservation and what it takes to start a business.

[jwirr]

263. You are absolutely correct on what is needed to develop the

economics of a group of people. I have lived or worked on various reservations since the 1970s and it is indeed these items that are missing.

[1monster]

126. Ira Hayes. Johnny Cash immortalized him in song.

The Ballad of Ira Hayes

Ira Hayes,
Ira Hayes

CHORUS:
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Gather round me people there's a story I would tell
About a brave young Indian you should remember well
From the land of the Pima Indian
A proud and noble band
Who farmed the Phoenix valley in Arizona land

Down the ditches for a thousand years
The water grew Ira's peoples' crops
'Till the white man stole the water rights
And the sparklin' water stopped

Now Ira's folks were hungry
And their land grew crops of weeds
When war came, Ira volunteered
And forgot the white man's greed

CHORUS:
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war


There they battled up Iwo Jima's hill,
Two hundred and fifty men
But only twenty-seven lived to walk back down again

And when the fight was over
And when Old Glory raised
Among the men who held it high
Was the Indian, Ira Hayes

CHORUS:
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Ira returned a hero
Celebrated through the land
He was wined and speeched and honored; Everybody shook his hand

But he was just a Pima Indian
No water, no crops, no chance
At home nobody cared what Ira'd done
And when did the Indians dance

CHORUS:
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Then Ira started drinkin' hard;
Jail was often his home
They'd let him raise the flag and lower it
like you'd throw a dog a bone!

He died drunk one mornin'
Alone in the land he fought to save
Two inches of water in a lonely ditch
Was a grave for Ira Hayes

CHORUS:
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Yeah, call him drunken Ira Hayes
But his land is just as dry
And his ghost is lyin' thirsty
In the ditch where Ira died

[Hand]

141. Just a note...

The song was written by Peter LaFarge, an adopted member of the Tewa Hopi.



Bob Dylan and Woody Guthrie both did covers of "Ira Hayes", along with many others, no doubt. :patriot: :toast: :cry:

[peacetalksforall]

157. Bravo, bravo!!!! Teach them. Even though the truth hurts. I applaud

your concise paragraph that tells it like it is.

We invaded, pillaged, and plundered Iraq. We also did that to the First Nation. People want to be self-blinded.

[troubleinwinter]

245. Yes, raw deal to say the least...

The gov't. used Navajo to mine Uranium on Navajo lands for decades in the 50s & 60s to build bombs. The gov't. KNEW the dangers, but did not tell the native miners until forced to, then just handed out some little cards in English (the miners did not read English), but no safety gear.

Uranium polution of the land, ponds, streams, water sources, wells; miners died horrid deaths, children playing in uranium mine tailings died, women who drank of tainted water birthed sick and deformed children, sheep flocks died of the poisoned water, people who ate the sheep meat died. Uranium tailings to build foundations and floors in homes, leaching poison uranium and radon killing the people. I know many families of the deformed, sick and killed... they have no local water source any more... they drive many miles every day to fill water tanks at the trading post.

The gov't. denies NONE of this. In fact congress passed approval for compensation to families of the dead miners. One of my friends, a widow of a miner has been waiting for compensation for years (remarkably, worker records fro the uranium mines have largeley disapeared!?!). She wants the money to drill a deep well to bring potable safe water to her tiny community. She is 95 now, I guess she'll die and the claim will die with her(?) and the gov't will spend no money to provide a safe well for the people (...well, the gov't never agreed to give the people safe water to replace the poisoned death water, my friend Libby wants her due compensation so she can buy a well for her people).

REP. WAXMAN held hearings for uranium cleanup on the Navajo reservation in November, and has asked for a report in Dec. and $500,000 for cleanup to seal open uranium mine shafts which collect water and overflow, cover tailing heaps, line tainted ponds from leaching further into groundwater and test homes for radiation.

[Bonescrat]

283. You forgot your sarcasm taggie for this one...

"remarkably, worker records for the uranium mines have largeley disapeared!?!":sarcasm:

So I took the liberty (ponder that word for a sec) to add the taggie for you...

[sk8rrobert2]

259. nice rant superbly put

[Goblinmonger]

49. They are independant nations

And shut it with the "the federal government made alcohol" bit. They did do a great deal to contribute to the native's use of alcohol in the past and that certainly creates a cultural norm.

I bet Bush is going to go to war against the Lakota. THAT will make him look great.

[theredpen]

56. Good post

You bastard.

[Goblinmonger]

63. I noticed we were in agreement on this issue

And I doubted the reality of miracles.

[theredpen]

130. Oh ye of little faith

:P

[Goblinmonger]

133. Nice

have a good Christmas, my Christian friend. I still have fond memories of midnight mass. Back in the day when they were still primarily at midnight and not some slacker's version earlier in the evening.

[theredpen]

139. Well you have and enjoyable...

Secular Solstice Gift-Giving Holiday — or at least a happy New Year.

[winter999]

71. The native Americans had trouble with alcohol long before

there was a US Government. There were reports of alcohol abuse back as far as Plymouth and James Town.

[shance]

158. The native Americans entire live was decimated by the European white male

who then began, like they did with the Chinese and heroin, to saturate their broken devastated traumatized culture with alcohol.

Of course, ANYONE would have used such medicine to medicate.

ANYONE.

There is absolutely no greater addiction to alcohol for red Americans than there is for white Americans.

Absolute horse feathers and rubbish.

Just another cruel, intentionally segregating wives tale by the true racists.

The "firewater" hoax - just one more myth that adds salt to an already horrific wound.

[geardaddy]

198. Umm, that was opium. n/t

Just sayin. :)

[texastoast]

209. Guess who gave it to them? n/t

[bhikkhu]

329. In northern Japan there is an indigenous group - the Ainu

who are assumed to be the original inhabitants of the Japanese islands, but have long been relegated to second class status and pushed to the north by the spread and domination of the current dominant Asian cultural group. They are traditionally viewed as an inferior race - addicted to gambling and drink, lazy, a bit weak in will and intelligence, incapable of self-government. Genetic studies place them pretty squarely in the Caucasian racial group.

The point being - race and genetics are much less important than freedom and the old notion of "self-determination" to the health of a society. The Lakota deserve every freedom and every opportunity for self-government that can be spared. Which is everything: let them be, I would say.

[enlightenment]

142. Careful, Goblin - legally, the tribes are not

"independent" nations. They are, according to the Marshall court (Worchester v Georgia) "domestic dependent nations." Makes for an interesting relationship.

[harmonicon]

55. I think you're uninformed

The federal government likes to pick and choose when native lands count as part of the US. Public water sanitation? No, not for them. Infrastructure? Forget about it. Good schools? Fuck off. Withdrawing from treaties is different from declaring independence - they don't have to declare independence, because, if treaties are honored, they always were.

[uppityperson]

74. thank you for the polite answer.

better than I wrote and deleted.

[bemildred]

60. On Pine Ridge, a String of Broken Promises

PINE RIDGE, S.D. -- When the president came to town, Geraldine Blue Bird was lucky enough to be living in a four-room shack with 28 other people.

Had she been better off, President Bill Clinton's 1999 summer "poverty tour" to the Oglala Lakota Sioux reservation might have overlooked her house among all the other cabins and trailers doing hard time in her neighborhood. But even in the poorest patch of the poorest place in the country, the Blue Bird residence stood out.

---

Children spilled out the doors, plywood covered the windows, and an outhouse stood near the wreck of a pop-up camper -- used as an extra bedroom -- in the back yard. When Clinton touched down here to point out that parts of the United States were as in need of help as developing countries, he called on Blue Bird. Soon after, she received a call from Ronald I. Dozoretz, a Washington psychiatrist and husband of a major Democratic Party fundraiser. He was buying her a four-bedroom double-wide mobile home -- what color did she want?

Now, Blue Bird's double-wide, baby blue with black shutters, is the biggest house on her block. It only looks small, since she still takes in about two dozen children and young people, along with her son, daughter and four grandchildren. Pick a day and kids are sprawling and roller-skating across the living room, running around the bald front yard and climbing on the pine ramp out front that Blue Bird, who is 48 and has congestive heart failure, needs for her wheelchair. Still, she and everyone else here will tell you that her house was the best thing to come out of the first presidential visit to a reservation in more than 60 years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49822-2004Oct20.html

[existentialist]

252. Yes, and did you get the recent update on Geraldine Bluebird

She was recently convicted in federal court of dealing methamphetamine to other Indian people on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.

[Kilroy003]

292. Yikes.

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2006/02/24/news/top/news02.txt

"... Co-defendants indicted include Geraldine Blue Bird, one of four people arrested for cocaine possession at a Rapid City motel in December. Kohn said that arrest, along with the fatal shooting of a 16-year-old boy at Blue Bird’s mobile home in Pine Ridge on Dec. 10, helped expedite the case. ..."

Imagine how the "Washington couple" must feel right about now.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

70. Do you understand what the term "reservation" means?

It means lands reserved to the tribe, and not given up to the US government. So the claim of reservations is a different one from the claim of white supremacists or neo Confederates. One must also realize that the US government has made a continuing effort to destroy the cultures of various tribes. I've heard horror stories from Cherokees and Choctaws my age who were not allowed to speak their native language, and who were forced to convert to Christianity. These people were discriminated against and sometimes even hunted down like animals if they left the reservation. Until the 1970s, it was illegal to openly practice ceremony, and inipis and homblechias were done in secret.

[BearSquirrel2]

109. Cultural homogonization ...

Did you even read my argument?

I believe the practice of cultural homogenization is WRONG. It's the same problem with missionaries anywhere. They go to to spread Christianity, improving quality of life is ancillary and believed to be a result of faith.

Why do you assume that if you take on part, then you must believe in the whole. This is the same stupid logic that the "Man on Dog" Santorums drag out.

The plains Indians need a replacement for the buffalo business. To that end, they may want to change the way they've organized their society. They also need the feds to respect resource and mineral rights. It doesn't help if people are always dicking with what you do.

[texastoast]

210. How about the cattle business needs to tend buffalo?

MUCH better for the land.

[defendandprotect]

220. THEY HAD REPLACEMENTS ....and the US government destroyed them --- !!!

You have to understand that the US govt never had any intention of letting these people progress ---

They had domesticated sheep at one point -- and the US government came in and killed them all!!!

Hitler looked at the US government "reservations" for the native American and understood quickly
what it was all about ---
his concentration camps were somewhat formed on this premise.

[defendandprotect]

219. and the US war against the native Americans is not ended and never will be --- !!!

Every attack possible is made ---
Every theft possible is still made ---

[rosesaylavee]

84. Maybe they have legal premise as there were treaties

that were broken first by the United States. In fact, from what I have read, not ONE treaty has ever been honored by the United States. Not one.

I am sure that they have had lawyers look at this. I think this is a great move on their part. Perhaps it will get the US to acknowledge what it does in fact owe them as per their legal agreements.

Good for them. I salute them for their courage.

[roguevalley]

121. leaving behind traditional foods and eating foods whites eats has

caused a SCARY rise in illness, especially diabetes.

[LanternWaste]

129. What's the precise and relevant amount of time before a culture...

What's the precise and relevant amount of time before a conquered and abused culture should "get over it"? Twenty-five years? Fifty? One hundred? One thousand?

What is that answer based on?

If America had been conquered by the Nazis in WW2, how long do you deem is appropriate before we just "get over it..."? Twenty-five years? Fifty? One hundred? One thousand? Wouldn't you be a bit upset if you were told to "move on and accept things as they are..."?




As for me, if I take credit and enjoy the advantages for the what the history of my culture has done in the past and where it has brought us, then I'm equally responsible to atone for what we have inflicted on others. I cannot in good conscious enjoy one while absolving myself of the other.

And just as a head's up for you, might I suggest you pay more than passing attention to the policies and protocols of the Bureau of Indian Affairs-- it's not all rainbows, candy and sunshine.

[Sequoia]

175. Hi

That's an interesting name you have there LanternWaste, I'm trying to form a picture here but come up empty.

You got to wonder if the Polish people got "over it" when Hitler decided he hated them all and forced them out of their homes so Germans could move in. Not only did they have to leave, they had to put fresh flowers and a meal on the table (read Five Marks) before they left with what they could carry. Everything else in the house belonged to the new German family and it wasn't just the Jews' homes either. So you have a point there about if the Nazi's had taken over say.....Trent Lott's home or better yet...Prescott Bush's home. But then again, he would've welcomed them over.

[yellerpup]

165. When the Federal government comes to take your property

and dispossess you of everything you own or ever hoped to own, kills your family, starves your parents and allows you to live only if you sign your property over to them "legally", then perhaps you might feel like going on a little toot yourself. The federal government is most certainly responsible for making the hunter gatherer lifestyle obsolete. After you treat with the US government, and when you are sick and wounded and down to nothing, I wish you luck in 'getting over it.' Hope your culture is able not to brood too much and to just move on.

Edit for spelling

[defendandprotect]

221. If there hadn't been one drunken Indian . . .

there wouldn't have been such a thing as personal property on this continent ---

There were no owners; this was a commonwealth among native Americans ---

who, sadly, welcomed whites and were more than willing to share.

[yellerpup]

307. The first Europeans could not have survived

on this continent without the help of the native people who were too civilized to 'defend their property' by killing the whites for trespassing. They recognized the first colonists as human, while the colonists viewed them more as animals. Although animals rarely, if ever, kill for sport, Europeans had been "sporting" in this fashion for centuries, including killing their own parents, brothers, sisters, and children over property.

[texastoast]

200. So, assimilation is your answer

Like Reagan?

[donsu]

33. hope Cuba can help them now

nt

[Capn Sunshine]

41. Well, "Mission Accomplished" then

Our record of Indian Affairs is despicable. Still no accounting for the billions missing from the Indian trust fund

[BearSquirrel2]

68. Agreed ...

Agreed ...

Those monies need to be paid appropriately.

[MnFats]

279. interestingly before the whites showed up ... say, in 1491...

...the average life expectancy among native Americans was a good deal longer than white people in most European cities, which were choking with smog and riddled with disease and plague.....they even had a rough system of delivering mail among tribes. (Source: Atlantic Monthly excerpt.)

[HeeBGBz]

9. I wonder if they would adopt me? n/t

[dipsydoodle]

30. and re-name you

Sweet Sioux no doubt :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4SFn5avl_E

[Goblinmonger]

51. Hate to be "that guy" but just so you know

the use of "Sioux" to refer to the Lakota, Nakota, Dakota is generally not a positive thing. It was an insulting name from the French.

I went to the University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux, so there were plenty of discussions about the name (still are).

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

77. You are so right

You NEVER call a Lakota, Dakota, or Nakota "Sioux". What I find interesting is that the languages of these three groups is slightly different. I've been to inipis done in the Lakota and Dakota way, and the songs, though similar, have different pronunciations.

[geardaddy]

100. Yep, I have a Dakota friend

who says, "never use that 'S' word around me."

[defendandprotect]

222. "Squaw" meant vagina in their language --- !!! This is what white males were calling native women.

[Codeine]

260. Utterly untrue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaw#Controversy

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000317.html

[defendandprotect]

275. However, that's as Howard Zinn reports it in "A People's History of the US" . . .

And, I notice that Wiki info excludes . . . .
QUOTE: Some derogatory connotations for squaw that are not explicitly sexual UNQUOTE

On the other hand, do we suppose that "white" males had no derogatory nicknames for
native Americans -- especially females?

That would be unlikely as presumably they would be trying to move patriarchy into their
lives --- and deliver a new world war on females.

[dipsydoodle]

103. Well now I know

and thank you accordingly. I won't repeat the mistake :toast:

I equally hate the expression WASP because I am one literally : Anglo Saxon bloodline from one of my grandmothers. Viking from the other one but never mind.......lol.

[Goblinmonger]

107. I think most people

not from the area just don't realize it. Have a good one.

[ieoeja]

106. History Channel had a program that said "Sioux" was a Crow name for "enemy".

Given to the Lakota, etc tribes because they had just stolen the Crow land before Europeans moved into the area.

[Goblinmonger]

111. I had always heard French. So I did some lookin'

One website says we are both right. YEA!!!!! :toast:

The name Sioux was given to the Dakota people by colonial Frenchmen. It is an abbreviation of a past derogatory Ojibwe name for the Dakota people (Nadouesioux), a term of hatred, meaning snakes or enemies therefore, Minnesota geographic sites named Sioux are also derogatory.

http://www.towahkon.org/apologyresolution.html

This is a posting of an apology from the Minnesota state government, so hopefully they did the correct research into what they were apologizing for.

[Javaman]

10. So are the Lakota adopting? nt

[loudsue]

22. Well, you can get adopted...sorta. It's called a "hunka" ceremony...

and it's where you make a relationship with a Lakota person. It's spiritually binding.

[Javaman]

26. Hunka...huh?

Okay, so if I fell in love with a woman from the Lakoda tribe, would that make me her...

wait for it...

a Hunka Hunka of burnin' love?

Sorry I couldn't resist.

On a more serious note: that does sound interesting. I have read up on that. Thanks for the info. :)
Cheers and peace.

[loudsue]

44. If she's Lakota, you "Can't Help Falling in Love".....

;)

[olddad56]

11. Maybe this will catch on, maybe California can withdraw from the US also.

[eringer]

12. Yeah, And Encourage Your Apache Brothers to Texas Back

Recommend that they start with Crawford, preferably by New Years Day!

[dipsydoodle]

13. Good luck to them

they seem to get far less by way of restitution compared with the indiginous population of Australia for example.

[eringer]

14. Lakota Indians Have Found a Way to Bring Gen. Patraeus Home

Maybe he will be the new Custer.

[Rydz777]

24. Good comment - brought a smile to my face. nt

[dbt]

15. STAND, y'all!

You have shown incredible patience over the years. May your strength rise to match it now!

[crispini]

16. Wow. K&R

[Joey Liberal]

18. I stand by them! n/t

[Teaser]

19. Interesting...I wonder

how far they are willing to go with this?

[phantom power]

20. Now what?

[boricua79]

21. My goodwill and hope with them.

As a Puerto Rican, I know what it means to be a colonized subject of the United States.

[loudsue]

23. Puerto Rico is something that very few Americans know about or understand.

Yes. Being a colony of the U.S. sucks in so many respects.

[stubtoe]

27. This is terrific! Thanks for finding this article and posting.

Go Lakota! High time you got your independence back.

[dipsydoodle]

29. Wiki already updated !

Beginning in 1974, some Latoka activists have taken steps to become independent from the United States. These steps have included drafting their own "declaration of continuing independence" and using Constitutional and International Law to solidify their legal standing. This movement culminated with their declaring independence from the U.S. in December 2007 by issuing a statement to the U.S. State Department. They have stated that they intend to issue their own driving licenses and passports.<6>

Reasons given by the activists for the movement are wide ranging, but focus on the treaties they made with the U.S. over the past 150 years and the negative effects these treaties have had on their people. Furthermore, they have attributed their high teen suicide rate and low life expectancy to the conditions forced on them by the United States.

Washington DC (20 December) - A group of activist Lakota Indians, who live in five Midwestern US states, has declared independence. The group delivered a message to the US State Department earlier this week, announcing that the Lakota were unilaterally withdrawing from treaties signed with the US government.

The Native Americans say the treaties have been repeatedly violated by the US government "in order to steal our culture, our land and our ability to maintain our way of life". The delegation also visited the embassies of Bolivia, Chile, South Africa and Venezuela and will travel overseas in the months to come.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_people

[MrsBrady]

31. Means may have a point, but I found this article from South Dakota

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071220/NEWS/712200347/1001
From the Argus Leader in South Dakota

It is my understanding that although Russell Means may have a good point, he is not generally supported by Lakota governance.

""Rodney Bordeaux, chairman of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe, said his community has no desire to join the breakaway nation. Means and his group, which call themselves the Lakota Freedom Delegation, have never officially pitched their views to the Rosebud community, Bordeaux said.

"Our position on that is we need to uphold the treaties, and we're constantly reminding Congress of that message," Bordeaux said. "We're pushing to maintain and to keep the treaties there because they're the basis of our relationship with the federal government." ""

[Barrett808]

87. Hmm, I suspected this was Means going open-loop

Which is too bad, because I have a lot of respect for him.

[krispos42]

32. Sioux Falls "Argus Leader" story...

<snip>

"I want to emphasize, we do not represent the collaborators, the Vichy Indians and those tribal governments set up by the United States of America to ensure our poverty, to ensure the theft of our land and resources," Means said, comparing elected tribal governments to Nazi collaborators in France during World War II.

<snip>

Members of the new nation would not pay any taxes, and leaders would be informally chosen by community elders, Means said. Non-Indians could continue to live in the new nation's territory, which would consist of the western parts of North and South Dakota and Nebraska and eastern parts of Wyoming and Montana. The new government would issue its own passports and drivers licenses, Means said.

"Our withdrawal (from the treaties) is fully thought out," Means said, referring to peace treaties the Lakota people signed with the government in 1851 and 1868. "We were mandated by our elders in 1974 to do two things. First, to establish relationships with the international community... and the second mandate, of course, was to reestablish our independence."

Bolivian Ambassador Gustavo Guzman, who attended the press conference out of solidarity, said he takes the Lakotas' declaration of independence seriously.

<more>

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071220/NEWS/712200347/1001

[fishnfla]

35. any missle silos on their land?

that would really rattle the cage

[China_cat]

36. When did native americans earn citizenship?

Last I remember learning (and I admit it's been a long time ago) native americans were not citizens, not permitted to vote, etc as long as they lived on the reservation.

[MADem]

40. Who told you THAT? Ask that bastard if their chirren is learning.

That's the exact opposite of the truth.

http://www.usdoj.gov/otj/nafaqs.htm

Who is an American Indian or Alaska Native?
As a general principle, an Indian is a person who is of some degree Indian blood and is recognized as an Indian by a Tribe and/or the United States. No single federal or tribal criterion establishes a person's identity as an Indian. Government agencies use differing criteria to determine eligibility for programs and services. Tribes also have varying eligibility criteria for membership.


It is important to distinguish between the ethnological term "Indian" and the political/legal term "Indian." The protections and services provided by the United States for tribal members flow not from an individual's status as an American Indian in an ethnological sense, but because the person is a member of a Tribe recognized by the United States and with which the United States has a special trust relationship.


Are American Indians and Alaska Natives citizens?
American Indians and Alaska Natives are citizens of the United States and of the states in which they reside. They are also citizens of the Tribes according to the criteria established by each Tribe.


Can American Indians and Alaska Natives vote?
American Indians and Alaska Natives have the same right to vote as all United States citizens. American Indians and Alaska Natives vote in state and local elections, as well as in tribal elections. Just as state, federal, and local governments have the sovereign right to establish voter eligibility criteria; each Tribe has the right to decide its voter eligibility criteria for tribal elections.


Do American Indians and Alaska Natives Have the Right to Hold Federal, State, and Local Government Offices?
American Indians and Alaska Natives have the same rights as all citizens to hold public office. In this century, American Indian and Alaska Native men and women have held elected and appointed offices at all levels of state, local, and federal government.


Charles Curtis, a member of the Kaw Tribe of Kansas, served as Vice President of the United States under President Herbert Hoover. Indians have also been elected to the United States Congress. Tom Cole, a member of the Chickasaw Nation, has represented Oklahomain in the United States House of Representatives since his election in 2002. Ben Nighthorse Campbell, a member of the Northern Cheyenne Tribe of Montana, represented Colorado as in the United States House of Representatives from 1987 until 1993 and in the Senate from 1993 until 2005. Brad Carson, a member of the Cherokee Nation, represented Oklahoma in the United States House of Represenatives from 2001 until 2005.

[troubleinwinter]

184. Truth, but only a slim part of it. Here is the rest:

(State and local elections:) It wouldn't be until 1948 that Arizona would allow Navajos the right to vote, and it won't be until 1953 that New Mexico, and 1957 that Utah, grant Navajos the right to vote.

There is a HORRID new problem for Native Voters, largely Navajo, in Arizona. Under the guise of 'keeping all those illegal immigrants from Mexico from voting' (!!$#*!?!), Arizona SoS forced through the courts, all the way to USSC a 'Voter ID' law literally a day before 2006 election.

Elder Navajos tend not to have birth certificates (having been born at home), not to have utility bills (a great many live in remote areas spread over 26,000 sq. miles. of reservation, with no utilities), no "home address" (they don't have "streets" or home mail delivery), etc., etc. It comes down to: The Navajo voters have been disenfranchised because they are the LARGEST NATIVE AMERICAN GROUP (300,000 in Utah/Arizona/Colorado/New Mexico), AND VOTE LARGELY DEMOCRATIC. They overwhelmingly voted for Kerry, and all sides agree that Arizona's Democratic governor won largely due to the Native voters. The Navajos also turn out in huge percentages to vote.

The Navajo have a very large ratio of young people in the military. They have an honorable and solid history of serving. I spend a week each year with my native friends on the reservation, and consensus seems that "This is a bad war."

So, the republicans have found a way to disenfranchise these Americans from voting... using the boogeyman of "illegals voting". "Illegals" don't care about voting, they care about working. Navajos VOTE, or at least they used to.

[MADem]

186. They had to wait longer than women but less time than southern blacks.

Fortunately for those military types, they're issued ID cards. And they have social security cards, too.

I would think that the tribal governments would get serious and address this issue. Heck, they could issue ID cards or do a census mailer that could be used as proof of residence.

You'd think the elders would use the documents they get from the federal government, addressed to them at their home addresses, with regard to their social security and medicare issues to establish identity. Basically, all you need is a letter addressed to you--the utility bills are useful because they're "Third Party"--a third party says you live there. A letter from social security or medicare would work just as well, I should think.

[geardaddy]

189. In Minnesota in the last election

The Sec. of State at the time (R-of course) wouldn't let natives use their tribal ID cards as proof of ID.

[MADem]

267. Sounds like a court case to me! Where's the fucking ACLU?

I don't buy this whining shit. I'm sorry, I don't.

At some point in time, ya gotta get off your ass, put down the beer, and get your shit together. No one is gonna HAND you your rights. You have to DEMAND them. And there are plenty of agencies, like the ACLU, the Innocence Project, a load of other entities, that HELP PEOPLE who are disadvantaged.

But first, someone has to ASK........

[salib]

282. OK, I call BS on this one.

"put down the beer"? "get your shit together"?

How patronizing.

We are talking about, as always, the "downtrodden". Remember?

We are talking about those who, for WHATEVER reason, and there will ALWAYS be reasons, are the ones who are TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF. Remember?

I know. I know. It is quite easy to be frustrated with "these people."

They are not "taking the bull by the horn." Hell, they are not even speaking out.

Does that mean they are to have not voice? Does it mean they are to "wait for the ACLU" to make them a cause celebre? How patronizing is that?

People are not simply "potential" that merely require the right kind of cattle prod. OK?

We are talking about bringing EVERYONE into the process.

If YOU think that only those who stand up have a "right" to participate, then go join the Repugs, or better yet the Positive Objectivists, or whatever mumbo jumbo they call themselves.

[MADem]

285. They don't have to WAIT for the ACLU--they can pick up the phone and CALL THEM.

Why is it always a choice between some assholes deciding to go all 'Warrior' (like that crap is effective in the 21st Century) or sitting around being passive VICTIMS?

Pick up the phone, get off your ass, generate a little heat, get MOVING. God or whoever you deity of choice is helps those who help themselves.

Martin Luther King didn't have much more than a DREAM, and he changed the frigging world. He didn't sit around crying and waiting for others--he got off his ass and made it happen. For a whole crowd of "these people" (condescend much, do ya?). And he managed it WITHOUT a cattle prod, too.

What are YOU saying? That these native peoples are just too helpless, too victimized, too dumb, too unmotivated, to manage to help themselves? It sure seems like that is what you are saying. They're pathetic, but they deserve to have a voice anyway? Boo hoo? Poor little Indians?

I just don't take your point at all. If anyone is patronizing them, it's you.

And don't tell ME to "join the Repugs"--that shit is against DU rules. You can disagree with me all you want, but that kind of crap ain't on.

Getting off your ass and showing a little motivation is NOT a Republican trait. Even though Martin Luther King was a Republican....!

And sorry, if you don't stand up, you won't be counted. That's just how it works.

[geardaddy]

310. We did act.

We got that no good Secretary of State outta there. :)

[troubleinwinter]

236. What might seem simple to us, not always is...

Testimony By Kimmeth Yazzie
Program and Projects Specialist
Navajo Election Administration
NAVAJO NATION TESTIMONY

United States House of Representatives
COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION

AUGUST 3, 2006

VOTER IDENTIFICATION FOR VOTING AT THE POLLS

Native Americans were granted United States citizenship in 1924; however, it was not until 1948 that Native Americans were allowed to vote in New Mexico. Utah and Arizona also prevented Native Americans from voting until 1948. Since the right to vote has been clarified for Native Americans, there have been numerous issues affecting the ability of Navajo voters to participate effectively in the electoral franchise. There are twenty-two Native American Tribes in New Mexico. The Navajo Reservation extends into three states; the New Mexico portion alone includes parts of six (6) counties. As a result, the Nation spends many hours trying to educate the Nation's members about voting procedures and voting issues.

In 2004, Arizona voters adopted Proposition 200, the Arizona Taxpayer and Citizen Protection Act. Proposition 200 changes the process for obtaining a ballot at the polls to require an elector to provide either a photo identification with an individual's name and address or two other forms of identification with an individual's name and address. Because the new identification requirements for voting at the polls are so demanding to the Navajo people, the County recorders and other organizations are encouraging voters to request early ballots in order to avoid the voter identification requirements at the polls.

The Navajo Nation is concerned with the application of voter identification requirements to Navajo voters. The implementation of the voter identification requirement in Arizona provides us with evidence of the impact of voter identification requirements on Navajo voters. First, not all Navajo voters have the required identification documents as provided in the voter identification requirements of the Arizona Revised Statutes. The statute requires that an elector provide "one form of identification that bears the name, address, and photograph of the elector or two different forms of identification that bear the name and address of the elector." For numerous reasons, Navajo Nation members may not have photo identification. The Navajo Nation does not issue tribal identification cards. Other forms of identification without photographs are not common. An individual's "address" on a reservation is not specifically described by a street number, rural route number, lot and block, or metes and bounds. Addresses typically describe the location of a residence by distance from a landmark, such as a Chapter House. The same address can appear in several different formats that may make comparison difficult.

Second, although the law does not specify which types of identification are acceptable, the Arizona Secretary of State has developed a list of identifications acceptable for voting at the polls. It is our concern that other states, including Utah and New Mexico, or federal legislation will create the same or similar list to apply to Navajo electors. This requirement would be difficult for many Navajo voters. According to the 2000 Census, 33% of the housing units lack complete plumbing, 62% lack telephone service, and at least 20% of homes on the Reservation lack access to a vehicle. Over 56% of Navajo households are heated by wood and traditional Navajos living in hogans do not have electricity and do not receive utility bills. Even if a household has a utility bill, that bill will be issued in one person's name. These facts illustrate the problems that the Nation's members will have in providing identification for voting.

Finally, Navajos are at a particular disadvantage with regards to voting options. Navajos turn out at higher rates at the polls than other voters. For example, in Coconino County, 90% of the Navajo Reservation precincts voted at the polls, while only 64% of the non-reservation precincts in that county voted at the polls. Under Section 203 of the Voting Rights Act, Navajo language speakers are entitled to official translation assistance. This type of assistance can only occur at the polls. While other voters may participate in early ballot processes, Navajo voters are less likely to vote early because many Navajos require translation assistance at the polls on Election Day in order to cast their ballots.

Because of the need for official language assistance, the lack of utilities available to Navajo Nation members, and the likelihood that a Navajo Nation member will not possess the required identification, the Navajo Nation believes that requiring identification for voting will impact the ability of Navajo voters to participate in elections and serve as a barrier to those electors who wish to participate in the electoral franchise. For these reasons, the Navajo Nation objects to the expansion of voter identification requirements to other states.

I know perhaps 150 Navajos personally and visit them in their homes. I know NOT ONE with running water (they haul it from the trading post for household use and to water their small flocks). NOT ONE with sewer service. NOT ONE with electric utilities (some have generators, many use a Coleman lantern). Heating and cooking is by wood or coal, NOT ONE is hooked to natural gas, a few close-in have propane. NOT ONE with cable TV. NOT ONE with a land-line telephone (a couple with cell). No deeds to the land, no mailing addresses (a younger woman has a post office box an hour and a half away, and if I want to send a note to a friend I send it in her care. She collects mail in her box once a month or so for anyone in the community who might get mail). They have no utility bills with mailing addresses. Half the households have no access to vehicles (so no drivers license).

The Navajo Nation does not at this time offer tribal ID. They have discussed it, but the cost is a challenge.

This seems not to be an issue to you because those who served in the military have ID? It is a HUGE issue to me, because my elder American friends who have ALWAYS voted were unable to vote in 2006, lacking all these papers that they do not have.

[MADem]

265. I am not suggesting that these people should have to PAY for their IDs. What I am saying is that

the fucking tribal elders need to get off their asses and enlist some help, either from the richer tribes who have casinos, or anyone else who gives a shit, to find a way to document these folks.

Funny how the "We Make a Fortune On Gambling" guys can neglect their fellow "native peoples" without even a blink of an eye.

A rising tide lifts all boats, after all.

[troubleinwinter]

291. "the fucking tribal elders need to get off their asses"

Pardon fucking me.

We ALL need to get off our fucking goddamned asses and STOP permitting disenfranchisement.

We must STOP trailing around sweeping up after every "little" new scheme to disenfranchise many, many, many small groups. All those "little" groups of poor, black, immigrant, Indian, student, inner-city, mis-registered, elder, fake felon lists, etc. Unfair distribution of voting machines causing lines for hours in the rain.

WTF?! Get a clue. These small disenfranchisements add up. Americans must be permitted to vote. "fucking tribal elders" are at fault?! Where do you get such an idea?

"get off their asses and enlist some help" Do you have any clue how many tribes are in AZ? In NM? Do you know the logistic, cultural and language challenges? I have been posting here on DU (aside from working in my state) desperately trying to "enlist some help". Will you join me in the effort to try to STOP the drip-drip-drip of disenfranchisement in all areas, or will you curse those Americans who have a right to vote but are being challenged and disenfranchised? Can we "enlist" your "help"? We need it.

[MADem]

296. Well great, get on your fucking high horse and ride to their rescue, then.

If people need help, they need to ASK for it. Not sit passively and wait for "heroes" like you to ride across the range to save them. The ACLU is skilled at this shit--they should call them and A-S-K for some help. They'll get it free of charge, too, if the ACLU takes their case. But first, someone has to ...oh YES...get off their ass and ASK.

Leaders are supposed to LEAD. The Elders have a problem because their people are DISENFRANCHISED. No one outside the tribe gives a shit if these tribes vote, frankly, least of all the politicians who won't benefit by these folks casting ballots. They aren't MOTIVATED to help them. The ACLU is, though.

Get over yourself. Your statements are smarmily dramatic, but meaningless. You blab on and on, but you haven't explained HOW we get these people from the DISENFRANCHISED list to the VOTING column. "Stop permitting disenfranchisement" you say--well, HOW? Come on, cough up an idea or two.

At least I've come up with a few constructive suggestions, not just a dramatic "Americans must be permitted to vote!!"

And despite my suggestions, you finish up your diatribe by telling me it's just TOO HARD, too. So many TRIBES!! Logistic, cultural, and language challenges!! Oh, abandon hope!! There's not one sumbitch in each tribe who could provide liaison support to an ACLU rep? Not ONE?

And they don't necessarily have to do each tribe individually, now, do they?

Surely the ACLU knows a little about something called "Class Actions Suits?"

YA THINK????? Gee, I'll bet they do!!!!

But the tribes--not me, not anyone from outside the tribes--need to get their motivation working and ASK for help. Because boohooing about it, and saying "Gee, it's WRONG" ain't gonna enfranchise them. Neither is yelling at me. The ACLU might be able to help them, though. They've done it before...

[troubleinwinter]

299. You have a GOOGLE, aintcha?

A lawsuit was filed against the state of Arizona by the Navajo.

I rekon if the ACLU could fix everything related to voter disenfranchisement, we'd be sittin' mighty pretty right now.

Yup, it's all up to the ACLU.

Let's just leave it as: You don't give a shit about any voter disenfranchisement across this nation. It's either the fault of "the fucking elders" or the ACLU's problem.

See ya.

[MADem]

300. You don't read for comprehension, I see. And you don't know your subject matter, either.

If you did, you'd know WHO FILED THE LAWSUIT.

Gee--look who's helping those poor people out--why, it's the ACLU!!!!!!!!

:rofl:

And not just in AZ, in NM, too!!! All over hell! Three CHEERS for the ACLU--they're doing more than YOU are!

http://www.votingrights.org/states/

State: New Mexico

Action: Last year Albuquerque voters approved an amendment to the city's election law requiring a photo ID when voting in person.

Result: Challenged by the ACLU in federal court.

bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/64/22447

....voter advocacy groups have filed several lawsuits to prevent the use of ID at the polls and when registering to vote. Three lawsuits filed by the Arizona ACLU, The League of WomenVoters, the Navajo Nation and others were combined into one suit. Arguments began in late August in U.S. District Court, with the plaintiffs asking for an injunction to stop ID requirements at the polls because they believe the law disenfranchises minority voters. Of Arizona’s 15 counties, 14 asked Judge Roslyn Silver not to grant the injunction because it is too close to the election.Coconino County, with its one-third American Indian population, asked the Judge to grant the request, saying the law places an undue burden on American Indians, the poor, and the elderly. The court had yet to rule as of Sept. 6.
http://www.electionline.org/Portals/1/Publications/AZ.EAP.2006primary.pdf


You can get off your high horse, now--they don't NEED you to come to their rescue. They already HAVE competent representation. It's that ACLU you were deriding that's helping them out. How NICE of them!!


Let's leave it at this--you don't read for comprehension, and I do give a shit about voter disenfranchisement. I don't whine about it, though, without offering constructive suggestions.

Like you seem to enjoy doing.

[troubleinwinter]

293. I find this post deeply disturbing and ugly.

What in the world do "We Make a Fortune on Gambling guys" have to do with any of this? Some tribes consort with The Mob and have casinos. Most have nothing whatever to do with it, and have deliberately avoided any connection to and have banned gambling, such as the Navajo.

You suggest that tribes should consort with the filthy mobs or tribes that do, in order to secure their right to vote? Or that American people should need to associate with casino owners to vote? Or that Native American groups must align with casino owning tribes in order to vote?

[MADem]

295. Nothing ugly about it. What's ugly is that rich people from the same greater heritage won't help

the poor who got the shitty end of the stick. Maybe if a few of those mobbed up--or even the "NOT mobbed up" (and my understanding is that most of them are NOT; they employ Las Vegas style professional management companies that audit constantly)-- tribes who make money off of gaming and hospitality made a donation to the poorer tribes, they could help them with some of the issues of concern to them, particularly the ID issues they face. Most states offer photo IDs (not driver's licenses) that serve as basic identification, and they're much cheaper than licenses--it would be a good use for some of that cash.

I don't see any other groups lined up to make those donations--do you? What, are they supposed to pull that funding out of their asses?

You watch a lot of Sopranos? Is that where you're getting that 'mobbed up' stuff?

Why you think that rich tribes helping poorer ones is "ugly" I have no idea. I don't think there's anything "wrong" or "ugly" about those who are better off helping the least of their brethren.

But then, I don't see anything wrong with the tribes picking up the phone and asking the ACLU for help, either. Apparently some folks here think the "poor widdle Indians" are too "downtrodden" to do that shit. I think the way you get help is to ASK for it.

Such a concept...

[troubleinwinter]

298. So we don't see eye-to-eye on this.

You seem to see the villains as the tribes that won't take care of other tribes, or the "fucking elders" who won't ask tribes to secure their voting rights.

The mobbed up shit IS something I do know about, having studied it for a coupla decades, but to my mind is entirely beside the point. You seem to think "rich" casino owning tribes are responsible for securing the voting rights of all tribes.

The point is that AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE SYSTEMATICALLY BEING DISENFRACHISED FROM THEIR VOTING RIGHTS.

I just wonder if you can give a shit about that. Leave off with the idea that "rich tribes" are responsible to see to the voting rights of Americans. The Navajo have filed federal suits and given congressional testimony, they are not ignorant of the ACLU.

"Most states offer photo IDs". Yippee. "Most"? Go to your state without a birth certificate or ultility bill or a piece of mail with a mailing address on it and ask for a free photo ID. Drive a few hours over dirt roads and be told to come back tomorrow. Lemme know how that works out for you. I know people who've tried it. People who had voted since likely before you were born.

Quit yer shit about rich tribes helping poor tribes. It is about many different people being disenfranchised from voting in many ways. It's up to YOU and ME, not casino tribes.

Do YOU care?

[MADem]

301. You seem determined to infantalize a warrior culture. Turns out, though, they don't NEED your

coddling, or your smarmy pity......because those fucking elders picked up the phone--and CALLED THE ACLU. Who are representing them in their quest for voting rights and justice.

Ain't that special. I think so.

I care. I'm a card carrying member. My dues money is going towards helping those people.

What are YOU doing, except bitching at me and trying to suggest that you are somehow "better" than me because you're just so FULL of "pity" or some idiotic and unhelpful emotion that doesn't advance the ball towards the goal?

They're getting help--because those fucking elders called the fucking ACLU.

Cites upthread, if you wanna read them.

:eyes:

[Mabus]

57. In 1924 the US unilaterally conferred citizenship on...

American Indians born in the US through the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924. We didn't "earn" it, nor did we ask for it, rather it was part of the long assimilation process that the government - as our "guardians" - decided was best for us.

[China_cat]

69. In the 50's it was still being taught at the school I went to

(a public school, btw) that as long as an individual claimed membership in a tribe and lived on the reservation, that he/she was not a citizen and could not vote.

This goes into the file along with the teaching that men have 4 more teeth and 1 less rib than women.

Thank you for the correction.

[Mabus]

105. No problem, glad I could help

I've had a lot of what I was taught in school proven to be wrong too. I can't tell you how many times there was something I was taught in school that turned out to be totally wrong or misinterpreted through the world view of the teacher. It happens all the time. For example my stepdaughter called us a couple of years ago and told us that her social studies teacher was telling his students that WMD's had been discovered in Iraq.

fwiw, not all Indian lands are reservations and not all reservations are federally recognized. Typically reservations that are federally recognized are the ones created by Congress or an Executive Order from the POTUS. States can also designate lands as reservations but they aren't always recognized as such by the feds. Then there are the trust lands which are called trust lands, tribal trust lands and trust allotments. iirc, there is only one Indian rez in Oklahoma. Most of the rest, like my tribe's lands, are trust lands or tribal trust lands. Finally, federal agencies like the Federal Highway department has recognized places like Haskell Indian Nations University as Indian/minority land for the purposes of NEPA and their office.

It's complicated but Indians can live in Indian country and still vote in elections.

[sofa king]

173. Was it an east coast school?

There is a little wrinkle in the 1924 act. While it theoretically conferred citizenship upon all American Indians, Congress and the Supreme Court had previously recognized that the tribes in the thirteen colonies were the responsibility of those states, to be dealt with as they saw fit. Some argued that the citizenship issue was a decision to be made by the legislatures of the thirteen original states.

I spent a lot of time trying to determine if and when Connecticut actually recognized its Indians as citizens. The Indians had more or less taken matters into their own hands and started voting and paying taxes long before, but occasionally when the state wanted to steal Indian land or weasel out of a commitment, they would make mention of the fact that their Indians weren't citizens. For a brief time in the 1930s, they were treated as wards of the state, with a status very similar to that of juvenile (non-voting) orphans and managed by the same department.

As late as the 1870s, Connecticut agreed to confer citizenship upon the Mohegan tribe in return for their reservation and their dropping of land claims that dated back to the Puritans--so at least in theory they weren't citizens before that and the four tribes (Eastern and Western Pequot, Schaghticoke and Paugussett) which refused to de-tribalize remained non-citizens. In the Eastern Pequot and Schaghticoke cases, the Office of Federal Acknowledgment stated that members of both of those tribes were not recognized as citizens until the nineteen seventies. The documentation which proves or denies this disappeared into Attorney General Richard Blumenthal's office and hasn't been seen since.

Here in Virginia, part of the annual ritual of the states tribes presenting a deer to the governor was to highlight the semi-independent status of those tribes from the state. Does that independence mean they're not citizens? Some people might offer a definitive answer, but I don't think anyone who's looked closely at the question is really sure.

As far as this particular story goes, good old Russel is just stirring up the pot, as usual. He's not in a position of official leadership of the Lakota tribes (anymore) and he certainly doesn't speak for the whole group. One thing the Lakotas definitely do have is the independent spirit which guarantees that no one person or self-appointed group will ever truly speak for all of them.

[China_cat]

194. Western PA

Where we have a monument on the spot where an indian shot an arrow at George Washington...missing him, of course.

Well, it used to be on that spot but they closed the road and built a new one and moved the monument to the new road about 8 miles east of the original spot.

So much for historical accuracy.

[geardaddy]

196. Is that Fort Necessity? n/t

[China_cat]

208. No, this is just a wide spot on the road

about 35 miles north of Pgh. on rt.68. Unless someone living in the area shows you where the thing is, you'd pass by it and never even notice it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

93. They were not considered citizens until 1924

Ridiculous, isn't it?

[TechBear_Seattle]

97. Native Americans born on many reservations are NOT citizens via the 14th Amendment, this is true

Early treaties with Native Americans recognized reservations as sovereign territories under the protection of the United States. As sovereign territories, the 14th Amendment does not apply as people born on such reservations were not, technically speaking, born in the United States. Eventually the US changed its policies, and reservations were established either without treaties or under treaties that specifically described the reservation as part of the United States.

HOWEVER, as others have pointed out, Congress acted through legislative means to extend citizenship to Native Americans who otherwise were not citizens. Since then, people born on sovereign reservations have a statutory claim to citizenship but not a constitutional claim. In effect, people born on sovereign reservations become naturalized citizens at birth.

Added "sovereign" in the second para. to clarify. People born on non-sovereign reservations are constitutional citizens rather than statutory citizens.

[donsu]

38. wishing them good luck and much Stamina

nt

[spirit of wine]

45. Perhaps they got the blessings from this little gem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi49tvs8jp8

The man has no clue!

[doodadem]

46. Umm....there's a major problem here

As much as I love Native American culture, this could be a big problem if the U.S. then decides to withdraw all aid to the nations. Unfortunately, they are totally dependent on our government now for the barest minimum to subsist.

Way back in high school, a friend and I went around with our fists up, proclaiming, "Red Power!", when Means, Banks, and the rest of AIM took back Wounded Knee. Over the years, I've collected quite the library of Native history, and current circumstances. We moved to an area where we are surrounded by descendents of the Mono tribe. Our own farm used to be part of their wintering camps when they came down from the high mountains.

I hate our history with the Native civilization here. Hate it, hate it, hate it. But I'm afraid this is another publicity stunt by Russell Means and co., that is going to just hurt their own people. Besides, Means was a city indian--he wouldn't know how to hunt buffalo on a dare.

[AZ Criminal JD]

54. Since they wish to be independent

I am sure they will reject all aid and financial payments from the U.S.

[Amonester]

64. Maybe, these poor holocaust survivors will decide to join Canada

then.

They're welcome.

[LanternWaste]

137. Not all independent nations refuse American aid

Not all independent nations refuse American aid. One is not dependent upon the other.... :eyes:

[laylah]

183. What an ignorant

response! The U.S. has broken ALL, not one, not a few, but ALL treaties made with the Native American, along with ripping them off for land over and over! They, the TRUE Native Americans, are owed billions upon billions of dollars from the forked-tongue White Man. "...all aid and financial payments" my a$$ :mad:

[AZ Criminal JD]

197. Really? Since all treaties have been broken

Then you will tell me just one. Shouldn't be too hard since all have been broken. How many billions are owed? Careful how you answer this. You might want to check how much the "forked-tongue White Man" is paying Native Americans before you embarrass yourself.

[druidity33]

240. try google...

here's one link on the billions missing:

http://www.dickshovel.com/bur.html

and another:

http://www.albionmonitor.net/free/biatrustfund.html

on treaties:

http://www.aimovement.org/ggc/trailofbrokentreaties.html

a movie about a broken treaty at MTV's site:

http://www.mtv.com/movies/movie/112840/moviemain.jhtml

here's a list of treaties, why dontcha check em out yerself?:

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/kappler/Vol2/Toc.htm


I'd love to cherry pick quotes for you, but i really don't have time now. Dinner is ready...

:)

[doodadem]

317. Two good books to start educating yourself

Would be "Stolen Continents" by Richard Wright, and "Black Hills, White Justice", by Edward Lazarus.

Just for good measure, top those off with a couple of the classics, "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee", and "Custer Died for Your Sins".

[madrchsod]

147. china will gladly pour in billions into their nation...

good luck after that...

[ClayZ]

67. I live in The Republic of CASCADIA (north left coast)

http://zapatopi.net/cascadia/

The former American states of Oregon and Washington and the former Canadian province of British Columbia must join together as a sovereign nation. Only then can we have self-determination and take our rightful place in the Global Community.



All are welcome!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

203. Including the Bureau of Sasquatch Affairs!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

They're looking after their flora and fauna, even the cryptozooids.

[defendandprotect]

224. Sadly, only a military and atomic bombs will guarantee anyone sovereignity now --- !!!

Patriarchal violence has won the day --- !!!

Meanwhile . . . how does Canada feel about you ---
and what's your weather like?
Are you also melting?

[graywarrior]

76. Payback's a bitch.

I'm so glad they are doing this.

[uppityperson]

79. k&r for at least getting right information out

Incredible the misinformation that has shown up even here on this thread. As a wasicu who grew up near and in Lakota country, best of luck and I hope you get better treatment than you have. Wapi waste.

[pjt7]

85. This is really interesting & i wish them the best

The Lakota are a strong tribe & great people, if you can meet a living, pure soul, it's a real experience. I did volunteer work on a remote Navajo rez in Utah. Great people as well, but differnt because their lands are not as rich as Lakota.

[shance]

80. Im stand proudly with the Lakotas - who else?

The Treaties the Lakota elders signed were laughed at by the 'white men' that created them.

In the seventies, the FBI murdered many in the American Indian Movement including many of those who were Lakota members.

The FBI left some members to bleed to death on the roads after they had been shot and refused to allow anyone to help them.

No investigations were EVER sought for the murders of these individuals.

The Lakotas are doing what everyone in this nation should be doing.

Then again, they are brave and honorable individuals, of course they would take the lead.

They stand for something.

[geardaddy]

113. I stand with them and all first nations. n/t

[endarkenment]

81. I stand with the lakota people. nt.

[uppityperson]

82. From Rapid City (SD), including interesting bit about liens

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2007/12/20/news/top/doc476a99630633e335271152.txt
...The move to form an independent nation will focus on property rights in a five-state area where the treaties in question were drawn up. The states include South Dakota, North Dakota, Nebraska, Wyoming and Montana – areas that the group say have been illegally homesteaded for years despite knowledge of Lakota as the historic owners.

If the U.S. government does not immediately enter into diplomatic negotiations, the group said in a news release, liens will be filed on real-estate transactions across the region -- an action it says could cloud title issues over thousands of square miles of land and property....

Now this could be very interesting.

Edited because if I try to put the article in a thing it disappears it

[Barrett808]

90. Here's the web site:

http://www.lakotafreedom.com

Seems to be slammed at the moment. Or maybe under a DOS attack... :)

[eagler]

91. OMG, I suppose now I'll wind up on somebody's watch list.

[Danf1990]

124. good

After every injustice that has been done and continues to be done to the entire native american population. Its time the Indians got what they deserve and live as a free people

[defendandprotect]

225. Nah -- probably just shipped in a 20" by 20" box . . . !!!

[Sean Stuart]

94. Any word on the Lokata Nation's uranium enrichment program?

I mean we certainly wouldn't want the evidence of it to be a mushroom cloud.

[YDogg]

218. heh

welcome to DU

[Thor_MN]

306. Who needs to enrich uranium when there are missle silos growing like weeds?

If they could take control of those states today, I think they would be the #2 nuclear armed nation on earth.

[acmavm]

96. Somehow I think that would be the best thing that could happen

to the Indian nations, to rid themselves of the US government.

Of course the way things are going, it wouldn't hurt the rest of us either.

[parkerll]

99. Good for them.

I guess they are fed up with the government STILL trying to exterminate them:
WARN and other women's organizations publicized the sterilizations, which were performed after pro-forma "consent" of the women being sterilized. The "consent" sometimes was not offered in the women's language, following threats that they would die or lose their welfare benefits if they had more children. At least two fifteen-year-old girls were told they were having their tonsils out before their ovaries were removed.
The enormity of government-funded sterilization has been compiled by a masters' student in history, Sally Torpy, at the University of Nebraska at Omaha. Her thesis, "Endangered Species: Native American Women's Struggle for Their Reproductive Rights and Racial Identity, 1970s-1990s," which was defended during the summer of 1998, places the sterilization campaign in the context of the "eugenics" movement.
No one even today knows exactly how many Native American women were sterilized during the 1970s. One base for calculation is provided by the General Accounting Office, whose study covered only four of twelve IHS regions over four years (1973 through 1976). Within those limits, 3,406 Indian women were sterilized, according to the GAO.
Another estimate was provided by Lehman Brightman, who is Lakota, and who devoted much of his life to the issue, suffering a libel suit by doctors in the process. His educated guess (without exact calculations to back it up) is that 40 per cent of Native women and 10 per cent of Native men were sterilized during the decade. Brightman estimates that the total number of Indian women sterilized during the decade was between 60,000 and 70,000.

[Chulanowa]

108. Something that's not clear to me...

Does the group making this declaration speak for the Lakota government, or are they doing this independently? Has there been any formal announcement on the part of the tribal government? If the Lakota Freedom Delegation's site weren't tits up, I suppose I'd have answers here... Does anyone know?

[SteppingRazor]

117. As far as I know, Russell Means has no authority to speak for the Sioux nation....

and has never served as its president.

This seems more like grandstanding by a guy who hasn't seen any headlines in 30 years than anything else.

[madrchsod]

144. you noticed too?

sounds great but the devil is in the details..maybe china can finance the new nation he`s talking about

[D23MIURG23]

164. The article makes it sound as though this came from a legitimate governing body.

A delegation of Lakota leaders delivered a message to the State Department on Monday, announcing they were unilaterally withdrawing from treaties they signed with the federal government of the United States, some of them more than 150 years old[/

[jberryhill]

195. ...but it didn't

Russell Means ran, and lost, twice in Lakota elections. He calls the tribal leadership "Vichy Indians".

The reader comments in the local paper are pretty enlightening.

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071220/NEWS/712200347/1001

Rodney Bordeaux, chairman of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe, said his community has no desire to join the breakaway nation. Means and his group, which call themselves the Lakota Freedom Delegation, have never officially pitched their views to the Rosebud community, Bordeaux said.

[jberryhill]

140. None that is apparent, no

The Lakota nation is comprised of several autonomous bands, the executive officers of which do not appear to bear any relationship to the group making this announcement.

[AllyCat]

110. Can we withdraw too since our elected leaders no longer represent us?

Or because the Constitution has been violated? That would be great.

Love this. Smart people the Lakota.

[Stalwart]

114. Spying on Lakota country?

What is the status of the Lakota in regard to government spying/wiretapping, the dirty tricks normally played on other nations in defense of freedom and manipulation of their governing systems etc.

Did an search on this thread with the word "spying" don't see it mentioned yet.

There are government agents on reservations? What are all the things they are doing. What new orders might they have?

[Krashkopf]

115. Is Colorado included in "Lakota Country?"

Because if the GOPers steal another Presidential election, I'll be looking for a new country . . . and not having to move would be cool! :D

[xxqqqzme]

116. Can I defect? Will they grant

political asylum?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

270. "...all those who live in the five-state area that encompasses our country are free to join us,"

I would think their "tax-free" promise would appeal to many.

[caseycoon]

118. Dare I say...

I LOVE IT!!!!
:bounce:
I told my hubby I was going to secede the day the shrubby creep was pronouced prez.

[0rganism]

119. I wonder what their immigration and naturalization policies are like...

tempting, tempting...

[balantz]

123. I could see many reasons why they would want to do this.

Maybe for on they see the possibility of a military draft looming.

More power to them!

[Chulanowa]

125. Media release from the group:

Thursday, December 20, 2007
Lakota delegation declares Lakota control of Dakota territory

Lakota Freedom Delegation in Washington D.C.
www.lakotafreedom.com
MEDIA RELEASE
19 December 2007
lakotafree @gmail.com or
[e-mail]

Freedom! Lakota Sioux Indians Declare Sovereign Nation Status Threaten Land Liens, Contested Real Estate Over Five State Area in U.S.West Dakota Territory Reverts back to Lakota Control According to U.S., International Law



Washington D.C. – Lakota Sioux Indian representatives declared sovereign nation status today in Washington D.C. following Monday's withdrawal from all previously signed treaties with the United States Government. The withdrawal, hand delivered to Daniel Turner, Deputy Director of Public Liaison at the State Department, immediately and irrevocably ends all agreements between the Lakota Sioux Nation of Indians and the United States Government outlined in the 1851 and 1868 Treaties at Fort Laramie Wyoming. "This is an historic day for our Lakota people," declared Russell Means, Itacan of Lakota. "United States colonial rule is at its end!" "Today is a historic day and our forefathers speak through us. Our Forefathers made the treaties in good faith with the sacred Canupa and with the knowledge of the Great Spirit," shared Garry Rowland from Wounded Knee. "They never honored the treaties, that's the reason we are here today." The four member Lakota delegation traveled to Washington D.C. culminating years of internal discussion among treaty representatives of the various Lakota communities. Delegation members included well known activist and actor Russell Means, Women of All Red Nations (WARN) founder Phyllis Young, Oglala Lakota Strong Heart Society leader Duane Martin Sr., and Garry Rowland, Leader Chief Big Foot Riders. Means, Rowland, Martin Sr. were all members of the 1973 Wounded Knee takeover.

"In order to stop the continuous taking of our resources – people, land, water and children- we have no choice but to claim our own destiny," said Phyllis Young, a former Indigenous representative to the United Nations and representative from Standing Rock. Property ownership in the five state area of Lakota now takes center stage. Parts of North and South Dakota, Nebraska, Wyoming and Montana have been illegally homesteaded for years despite knowledge of Lakota as predecessor sovereign . Lakota representatives say if the United States does not enter into immediate diplomatic negotiations, liens will be filed on real estate transactions in the five state region, clouding title over literally thousands of square miles of land and property. Young added, "The actions of Lakota are not intended to embarrass the United States but to simply save the lives of our people".

Following Monday's withdrawal at the State Department, the four Lakota Itacan representatives have been meeting with foreign embassy officials in order to hasten their official return to the Family of Nations. Lakota's efforts are gaining traction as Bolivia, home to Indigenous President Evo Morales, shared they are "very, very interested in the Lakota case" while Venezuela received the Lakota delegation with "respect and solidarity." "Our meetings have been fruitful and we hope to work with these countries for better relations," explained Garry Rowland. "As a nation, we have equal status within the national community."Education, energy and justice now take top priority in emerging Lakota.

"Cultural immersion education is crucial as a next step to protect our language, culture and sovereignty," said Means. "Energy independence using solar, wind, geothermal, and sugar beets enables Lakota to protect our freedom and provide electricity and heating to our people."The Lakota reservations are among the most impoverished areas in North America, a shameful legacy of broken treaties and apartheid policies. Lakota has the highest death rate in the United States and Lakota men have the lowest life expectancy of any nation on earth, excluding AIDS, at approximately 44 years. Lakota infant mortality rate is five times the United States average and teen suicide rates 150% more than national average. 97% of Lakota people live below the poverty line and unemployment hovers near 85%. "After 150 years of colonial enforcement, when you back people into a corner there is only one alternative," emphasized Duane Martin Sr. "The only alternative is to bring freedom into its existence by taking it back to the love of freedom, to our lifeway."

We are the freedom loving Lakota from the Sioux Indian reservations of Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana who have traveled to Washington DC to withdraw from the constitutionally mandated treaties to become a free and independent country. We are alerting the Family of Nations we have now reassumed our freedom and independence with the backing of Natural, International, and United States law. For more information, please visit our new website at http://www.lakotafreedom.com/. Lakota 444 Crazy Horse Drive, P.O. Box 99; Porcupine, SD 57772

[madrchsod]

143. if the ho-chunk nation will do the same.

then i`ll have to leave or apply to to be a citizen. i wonder if we will have open borders or will i have to have a valid passport to get back in my new homeland. i wonder what my exchange rate will be. dam the postal service will cost a bunch cause it`s a foreign country.. shit it`s to dam complicated ,i`ll just move to chicago the tribe near what is chicago was killed off by a central illinois tribe during one of their wars...

[mzmolly]

155. " Lakota men have the lowest life expectancy of any nation on earth,"

Astounding.

[balantz]

127. I hope it's a trend!

:yourock:

[Courtesy Flush]

131. Silly but obvious questions

If they renounce citizenship, what happens to those states? I know there's no one whole state involved, but big chunks of a few.

Without citizenship the people lose their vote (right?). How could this affect the states' electoral influence in the presidential race?

[Deep13]

138. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States...

...are citizens of the United States and the state in which they reside." U.S.Const.Amend. XIV.

No act of the tribal government can deprive individual tribal members of their American citizenship.

[ScooterFibby]

229. Unless...

... those persons born on the reservations are not considered "born ... in the United States" any longer.

[Deep13]

308. An act of Congress naturalized them all.

[jberryhill]

146. First we take their land - and now we take their voice

I guess anybody who wants to can decide they speak for the Lakota people.

This group has as much authority as if I went to Iraq and declared the end of the war on behalf of the United States.

The Lakota voted - twice - NOT to have Russell Means as one of their leaders.

This is simply a publicity stunt by activists who are not authorized to make such a statement.

[thunder35]

149. maybe a state should do the same

[jimlup]

150. Long Overdue!

The United States has broken every provision of the treaty so it isn't clear to me that they need to withdrawl from it. It seems to me that if those treaties had any meaning at all then they are already null and void.

[edbermac]

151. I can't wait for the Indians to ask for Manhattan Island back.

24 BUCKS?? WTF??

[slackmaster]

167. They would need to come up with about $155,674,318,134,231,800.00 to buy it back

Assuming 10% interest compounded annually for 382 years.

[defendandprotect]

227. Or prove that they never made such a $24 deal in the first place. Who would have?

[Recursion]

243. Thank you... the deal with the Dutch was pretty astute

What they got was a deal for guns, exclusive trading rights with the settlement, and a military alliance (the whole "Indians had no concept of ownership of land" meme is a Rousseauian "noble savage" myth that only applied, if ever, to certain nomadic nations in the Great Plains).

[defendandprotect]

273. The native Americans practied no "personal property" concepts that I'm aware of ---

[Recursion]

276. I'm afraid you've fallen victim to a meme

That's both demonstrably untrue and frankly absurd. Do you really think if you walked up to a Pequot or Lenni Lenape and took his stuff he'd just say, "oh well, he must need that more than I do"?

Why would there have been centuries of inter-national warfare (warfare quite skillfully exploited by the French, Dutch, and English) among the First Nations if there had been no concept of property?

[defendandprotect]

287. You're talking about personal belongings --- not the same concept ---

Yeah -- personal belongs ---

Nor, do I expect that they would permit someone to displace them from the places where
they lived --- yet they welcomed white men.

Like any other humans they did have conflicts ---

HOWEVER, they did not have concepts of personal property in the sense that capitalism
represents ...

And, in fact, there's a rather famous speech by a native American re our drawing lines on the earth --- and even in the sky.

Howard Zinn echoes this today in his writings in discussing how much better off we'd be if all of our lines on the earth were to disappear.

[NuttyFluffers]

294. every single NA class, textbook, video, and history echoes your assessment.

i have zero idea where someone is saying this concept is a myth. it very much is very real and also practiced on other continents as well, such as huge tracts of Africa, Australia, South America, and Asia by various people's i also had to study. yes, they may have "regions" where they live and war with nearby peoples who pressure their communities, but the concept of land ownership and strict territorial boundaries is nowhere near a universal as portrayed. there can be other ways of assessing land, for example involving shared usage rights (a basic standard in understanding nomadic cultures, period.).

it is flat out wrong. someone needs to put their imperial bias away and read up about the rest of the world.

thank you for standing up for a little fact in the face of bluster.

[defendandprotect]

321. Hi --- thank you!

[NuttyFluffers]

327. keep on keepin' on!

:hi:

[progressoid]

152. I heard Russell Means say he liked Republicans better than Democrats

This was in the early 80's. His rationale was that Democrats kept giving them money so they were dependent on the Federal Govt. He hoped that Reagan would cut them off completely so they would be forced to be independent.

[ozone_man]

244. What he means by that.

Especially the Russell Means during the peak of the A.I.M. movement, in the early 70's. I understand what he means by that. All Native American tribes have been going through culture shock, in the U.S. and Canada, but more so in the U.S. A free hand out isn't what they need. They need a way to transcend into the future, while maintaining their spiritual culture as much as possible. We're starting to see what a "life out of balance" leads to. Global warming and pollution, destruction of the Earth, which is the heart of Native American culture. So we need to learn from them now. Some of that reverance for nature. Somehow we've gotten off track, thinking that we're separate from nature, and we see where that leads us. Towards extinction.

I think Winona LaDuke is a better representative overall for the directions that Native Americans need to go in. Russell Means evokes a gut reaction of solidarity (e.g., watch "The Last of the Mohicans"). And that is powerful. Winona LaDuke (Green Party VP candidate 2000) is less confrontational, and focuses on issues of sustainabilty, green economics. For one thing, there's an incredible amount of wind power on reservations. It seems that they got stuck with some the most barren land, but it's rich with wind power. So the ultimate irony would be if Native Americans became leaders in the sustainable energy movement.

http://www.mediamouse.org/features/020306winon.php

[dbackjon]

154. The Bolivians better be careful about making a big deal out of this

Bolivia has several very active Indian independence movements - which actually has a chance of success, unlike this grandstanding effort.

[spirit of wine]

159. I wish them the best of success in this

It will be interesting to see how the story develops. Good luck!

[reggie the dog]

160. lakota

I had a good friend during my high school and university days who is Lakota. He was also depressed and into heroin after a while....

[Megahurtz]

162. HA - HA!!!

Absolutely WONDERFUL!!!

[dbackjon]

166. I not really sure all the glee around here on this

Yes, the United States Government has done a shitty job living up to the promises made, and it is incumbent on every DU'er to lobby the Government to do so.


But to celebrate a handful of people trying to break up our great country is beyond me.

Remember, each and everyone of us lives on land that some Native Tribe can claim as "theirs". Are you willing to just up and give your house/land back? If a group of Native individuals put a lien on your property, how would that make YOU feel????



And assuming you support the Lakota, shouldn't you logically then support the Crow to reclaim the land that the Lakota stole from them??

[Donnachaidh]

168. Guess y'all better check to see if your title goes back that far.

And considering the history - how it wasn't JUST their land taken - yes, I'm happy to see them flip the US the bird.

[dbackjon]

171. So you are willing to give up your house?

Just move out, and hand the keys over?

[jberryhill]

178. What's disappointing is the GULLIBILITY around here

This "delegation" doesn't speak for any band of the Lakota, and the leader of this "delegation" was in fact voted down twice in tribal executive elections.

But, who gives a s--- what actual Lakota leaders say...

http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071220/NEWS/712200347/1001

"I want to emphasize, we do not represent the collaborators, the Vichy Indians and those tribal governments set up by the United States of America to ensure our poverty, to ensure the theft of our land and resources," Means said, comparing elected tribal governments to Nazi collaborators in France during World War II.

Rodney Bordeaux, chairman of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe, said his community has no desire to join the breakaway nation. Means and his group, which call themselves the Lakota Freedom Delegation, have never officially pitched their views to the Rosebud community, Bordeaux said.

[defendandprotect]

228. I would support a full movement to return ALL native land to the native American ---

which would be just and fair ---

and/or provide total compensations ---

though how you can pay for genocide is beyond me ---

We'll have another opportunity to take that one around in Iraq with 2 million civilians killed!!!

[dbackjon]

314. So you are willing to give up your house? Or pay twice for it?

[THUNDER HANDS]

169. is this going to screw up a map of the U.S.?

like, are we going to have a hole in it where this reservation land is?

[geardaddy]

172. Here's the current tribal sovereignty map of the US

Courtesy of good ol' Wikipedia

[dipsydoodle]

176. Should there be numbers

so's we can colour it in ? All I can see is a map of the USA state boundaries ?
Or - do you mean the whole of the USA ? :)

[geardaddy]

177. The holes in white (most of them)

are sovereign Native lands.

[geardaddy]

182. Here's another map

Indian Land Areas Judicially Established 1978

http://www.nps.gov/history/nagpra/DOCUMENTS/JUDICIAL.PDF

On edit: Here's the index that goes with the map: http://www.nps.gov/history/nagpra/DOCUMENTS/ClaimsMapIndex.htm

[dipsydoodle]

185. Sorry

thought the white bits were lakes whatever. Ta for the other map.

[geardaddy]

187. No problemo...

I could see how they might look like lakes.

[uppityperson]

289. You missed Ak and Hawaii

[geardaddy]

315. I know, but I didn't make the map.

Take it up with the National Park service.

[liberal hypnotist]

170. Congratulations Lakota People!

I support your action and understand it. My grandparents left Ireland as a result of English brutality. It is great to have a land to defend. It is the only way to preserve a great culture.

[tom_paine]

174. My heartiest congratulation to the Lakota people. Imperial Amerika is to be resisted.

And, contrary to what you might have heard on FOXCNN resistance is NOT futile.

[Stalwart]

201. The Great Escape

Like the movie and others in the same genre, the ones who could not escape were nevertheless inspired by the few that did or the few that resisted.

[defendandprotect]

230. And, notice, the least powerful people among us are facing these fascists ---

while most of us sit back waiting and hoping we won't have to do anything!!!

[tom_paine]

254. Yes, I've noticed...with much shame for myself and my countrymen and women

There can be no doubt. Really, there hasn't been much doubt for quite some time.

We ARE the Germans who brought Hitler to power. As if their souls were rebirn and just leapt into ours.

History, if there is to be any, will look upon these generations of we Americans with the same puzzlement and contempt as it looks at our spiritual kin, the German People of the 1930s.

What a nightmarish tragedy to be living in. Hey, at least I can still order a piping hot pizza delivered in 30 minutes while I wtach the latest Britany news.

We are ALL to blame for this. We are all covered in the disgrace of Herr Bushler and his Henchpersons.

[defendandprotect]

288. Of course, I include myself in what you and I are saying . . . tragically!!!

Howard Zinn said:

"Sentimentality without action is meaningless."

I'm a huge disappointment to myself ---
I read The Third Reich and couldn't understand why people did nothing ---
and here I am becoming them.

I remember one of the first victims of our attack on Iraq ---
looked like a 10-12 year old boy --- arms and legs blown off ---
and I remember how once I so profoundly felt the suffering of children
and thought that I would fight to help them.

Even to just talk to other people about the reality of the world today is almost
impossible --- they don't want to hear it. It's almost as if they are living a dream.

And, it seems in my experience this has always been true.

Save in certain special circles -- and except those who have managed to bring us forward
--- those who have been the finest of teachers.

[Laelth]

180. Now that's news!

I wish the Lakota people well.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Truth2Tell]

181. More power to the Lakota!

[katty]

188. FINALLY! A way out!! Bravo Lakota!

[jeff30997]

190. How wonderful.

That "Hey it's really cool that the Lakotas are claiming land as long as it's not where I live" attitude is very hypocritical.

[niyad]

191. I'd renounce my citizenship to join them!!

for years, I have been telling people I belong to the land of Hertopia, same sort of idea.

[defendandprotect]

231. You know, at one time, there was a BIG problem with "whites" joining the native Americans . . .

and inter-marrying . . .

That's why a lot of the laws were changed --

[Recursion]

238. The Chahta and Seminoles had a big problem with that

My blood is so muddled as to defy classification, though my family managed to make the last Chahta (Choctaw) cut in the 20th century (I've always figured, the more the merrier...) I'm glad to see some First Nations standing up...

[defendandprotect]

239. I don't know that the couples saw it as a problem . . . but the US government sure did !

[Recursion]

241. I know with the Seminole and Chahta nations...

...the "problem" in the 19th century was whites, blacks, and latinos "dropping out" of American society and joining the nation, with the result that the original ethnic definition of the tribes became meaningless (though IIRC the Seminole nation itself began as a "pickup" nation from other First Nations). But, yeah, it was more a "problem" for the US government than for the people involved.

[defendandprotect]

271. The govt recognized that these were a preferred/special people ---

they had to be attacked in every way ---

"In deo" meant "people of god."

That's how Columbus' people saw them when they arrived ---

All descriptions are of a spiritually superior people.


Obviously -- they had to be destroyed!!!!

[pleah]

193. K&R

Go for it. My Great, Great, Grandmother was Shoshone.

[kevinbgoode]

216. Is this showing up AT ALL in the U.S. media?

eom/

[Codeine]

250. No, because it's bullshit.

It's Russell Means being a loudmouth. He doesn't speak for the tribal leadership because he can't win an election to a leadership post.

[ohio2007]

258. How does it play in Bolivia?

He did have some folks in town from there for his show.

[kineneb]

223. now if the Pomo would get their act together...

they might take over the county... might be an improvement. I gather they get lots of money from the gambling crowd.

[demigoddess]

226. I wish them well, but I wish they had waited til we had a dem president and a dem

congress. I do not trust bush not to go all nutso crazy about it. Love the Lakota spirit though and wish them a lot of luck and will support if we get to vote on any of this. But you know how often congress listens to the citizens these days.

[defendandprotect]

232. Unfortunately, they'll probably use this as a new way to steal from the Lakotas --- !!!

[existentialist]

235. hmm, well what do I know?

1) That no one person or delegation speaks for the Lakota people.

2) That his delegation lacks legal authority to speak for the federally recognized Lakota tribes.

3) Russell Means is Lakota, specifically Oglala--I'm not, so he is closer to having authority to speak for the Lakota people than I do--at least he speaks for one Lakota person.

4) Russell Means was photographed sitting at a drum with such luminary persons as John Thune and Bruce Whalen; this picture appeared on the October page of John Thune's 2006 calendar that his office handed out.

5) That Russell means has run for Chairman of the Oglala Sioux Tribe at least twice--he did not win.

6) That Bruce Whalen, another Oglala Lakota, was the 2006 Republican Candidate for Congress against Stephanie Herseth; he got about 25% of the vote, including about 25% in Indian Country and on the Pine Ridge Reservation in particular.


. . .

[liberalhistorian]

246. But, dear hubby, what do we know?

We only live and work on a Lakota reservation.

Wicasa is absolutely correct, and this is not coming from all Lakota and no one leader speaks for them all. And believe me, Russell Means is just as disliked as he is liked in Lakota Country. He does NOT NOT NOT speak for Lakotas in general, he just likes to think that he does.

[Recursion]

237. Ohetika! Ohoda! Ksapa!

This is the "nuclear option" I've been advocating as a member of the Chohta nation for a while...

[Subdivisions]

242. Godspeed, Lakotas! n/t

[Infinite Hope]

255. While I have native ancestry and support their rights...

objectively, this has no legs. The treaties put the land, while under the sovereign gov'ts of native tribes, under U.S. territorial control. Unilaterally backing out can't undo that. Unless the U.S. gov't backs out, they haven't ceded their control and they'll obviously take the necessary actions to enforce that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

261. I agree with them if the U.S. hasn't kept their side of the treaties.

Why shouldn't they break away? It's absolutely awesome!

[defendandprotect]

272. "IF" . . . ?????

[Sarah Ibarruri]

274. You're right. Hopefully many people will stand up for the Lakota in this. nt

[Prophet 451]

277. holy shit

I did NOT see that coming. Still, assuming this is legal (and it seems to be from what I can tell), good for them.

[Codeine]

303. No, it's not legal.

It's not the tribal leadership doing this, it's a handful of activists without elected positions or any legal authority.

[texastoast]

324. This handful of activists

generally includes those who adhere to the old ways of the elders. Many in "tribal leadership" positions are more moderate and wish to assimilate via embracing casinos, uranium mining on sacred lands, and destruction of sacred lands for real estate development (such as the Mescalero Apache, though they haven't won that one all the way yet, at my last understanding). Peltier got his ass in its initial crack over fighting the uranium miners.

No, not legal authority, perhaps, but certainly "moral" authority in my book.

[Codeine]

326. Unfortunately,

moral authority doesn't really count for shit. If Means and his group want to do this "for real" they need to get elected and press the case legally.

[L. Coyote]

281. Looks like we just lost five red states. LOL.

[populistdriven]

316. url

http://america.justgotowned.com/

[bhikkhu]

284. Words fail me...good hope and happiness to them. n/t

[Patchuli]

290. Does Lakota welcome Cherokee?

I'm so there...!

[OneBlueSky]

297. if those who founded and built this country had chosen . . .

to learn from the Native Americans rather than kill them, we might be living in an entirely different kind of society today . . . one that respects the Earth and those who inhabit it -- both human and otherwise . . .

[grytpype]

311. It's a good thing we still have horse cavalry!

1st Cavalry Division, Horse Cavalry Detachment, charge!

[Renew Deal]

312. Any DUers live in the Lakota Nation?

:shrug:

[existentialist]

332. Yes.

Yes, there are at least four of us. So far as I know liberal historian and I are the only ones who have addressed this thread.

[Blue_Tires]

313. i support this message....

[defendandprotect]

322. Russel Means . . .

Since his name has been mentioned her in questionable terms ---

Just want to mention this quote from him:

"When they came, we had the land and they had the book --
When they left, we had the book and they had the land."


Russel Means is like most of us not perfect --- and I don't know ALL about him.
However, he did write a very interesting book which I read years ago and Amazon still
has listed --- and my library has it.


Where White Men Fear to Tread: The Autobiography of Russell Means by Russell Means (Paperback - Nov 15, 1996)
Buy new: $19.95 $13.57 44 Used & new from $7.88
In Stock
Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping.
(36)
Other Editions: Hardcover, Audio Cassette


And it is not so much a personal biography as an attempt to bring some enlightenment as to what
the native American endured. The church schools for instance run by Mormons and Catholics
which brainwashed the native American childen in every way possible ---


AND . .. sexually abused, tortured and murdered many.

This was purposeful, planned harm by the US government ---

and if you think that attacks on the native American and their remaining resources came to an end
long ago, you should understand that it has not. And, indeed, the GOP still has "Indian Fighters."

[jberryhill]

325. Does He Speak For The Lakota People? NO - THAT'S THE POINT HERE!

I don't care what anyone's opinion of him is. I frankly don't know a tremendous lot about him.

However, what is certainly "questionable" about him is:

(a) his using this publicity stunt to make people believe that his announcements are somehow made on behalf of the Lakota people, and

(b) his calling the elected Lakota leaders "Vichy Indians".

Whether he's right or wrong about any number of things, it is clear that he is an asshole who has managed to fool a lot of folks right here on DU.

[defendandprotect]

328. That's YOUR point . . . not one I'm making, thank you!

As far as I can see from the article, this is attributed to:

"leaders"

And . . .

QUOTE: A delegation of Lakota leaders UNQUOTE

QUOTE: The Lakota relaunched their journey to freedom in 1974, when they drafted a declaration of continuing independence -- an overt play on the title of the United States' Declaration of Independence from England.UNQUOTE

quote: "We have 33 treaties with the United States that they have not lived by. They continue to take our land, our water, our children," Phyllis Young, who helped organize the first international conference on indigenous rights in Geneva in 1977, told the news conference. UNQUOTE



death at 44
teen suicides 150% above norm for US
infant mortality 5X higher than US average
unemployment rife
all according to the Lakota Freedom Movements' website


And Phyllis Young seems to have added: QUOTE"We are not trying to embarrass the United States. We are here to continue the struggle for our children and grandchildren," she said, predicting that the battle would not be won in her lifetime. UNQUOTE

I don't see anything that these people have said which points to a publicity stunt ---
it is obviously an effort to embarrass the US; deservedly.

Considering the harm done to the native Americans by the US government and how little most Americans understand about the continuing efforts to destroy what is life of native Americans, perhaps this will wake up some of them --- ????


Further . . . what you seem to really be upset about is the fact that many here sympathize with
this cause -- and that I included positive comments about Russel Means ---

QUOTE: Whether he's right or wrong about any number of things, it is clear that he is an asshole who has managed to fool a lot of folks right here on DU.UNQUOTE

It's not clear that Means is the "asshole" here --- !!

[defendandprotect]

323. Russel Means . . .

Since his name has been mentioned her in questionable terms ---

Just want to mention this quote from him:

"When they came, we had the land and they had the book --
When they left, we had the book and they had the land."


Russel Means is like most of us not perfect --- and I don't know ALL about him.
However, he did write a very interesting book which I read years ago and Amazon still
has listed --- and my library has it.


Where White Men Fear to Tread: The Autobiography of Russell Means by Russell Means (Paperback - Nov 15, 1996)
Buy new: $19.95 $13.57 44 Used & new from $7.88
In Stock
Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping.
(36)
Other Editions: Hardcover, Audio Cassette


And it is not so much a personal biography as an attempt to bring some enlightenment as to what
the native American endured. The church schools for instance run by Mormons and Catholics
which brainwashed the native American childen in every way possible ---


AND . .. sexually abused, tortured and murdered many.

This was purposeful, planned harm by the US government ---

and if you think that attacks on the native American and their remaining resources came to an end
long ago, you should understand that it has not. And, indeed, the GOP still has "Indian Fighters."

[knight_of_the_star]

331. In the end I doubt this will go anywhere

What is decided in court could easily be overturned with guns, this is probably going to end badly and blow up in the faces of the people attempting it.