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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:09 AM
Original message
FBI, CIA Debate Significance of Terror Suspect
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 03:11 AM by RamboLiberal
Source: Washington Post

Al-Qaeda captive Abu Zubaida, whose interrogation videotapes were destroyed by the CIA, remains the subject of a dispute between FBI and CIA officials over his significance as a terrorism suspect and whether his most important revelations came from traditional interrogations or from torture.

While CIA officials have described him as an important insider whose disclosures under intense pressure saved lives, some FBI agents and analysts say he is largely a loudmouthed and mentally troubled hotelier whose credibility dropped as the CIA subjected him to a simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding and to other "enhanced interrogation" measures.

The question of whether Abu Zubaida -- whose real name is Zayn al-Abidin Muhammed Hussein -- was an unstable source who provided limited intelligence under gentle questioning, or a hardened terrorist who cracked under extremely harsh measures, goes to the heart of the current Washington debate over coercive interrogations and torture.

-----

But FBI officials, including agents who questioned him after his capture or reviewed documents seized from his home, have concluded that even though he knew some al-Qaeda players, he provided interrogators with increasingly dubious information as the CIA's harsh treatment intensified in late 2002.

In legal papers prepared for a military hearing, Abu Zubaida himself has asserted that he told his interrogators whatever they wanted to hear to make the treatment stop.





Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/17/AR2007121702151.html?hpid=topnews



I bet we find out most of what he told the CIA will prove to be crap.
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. Of course it will turn out to be crap. Ask any psychologist familiar with torture.
It's a guaranteed way to get a load of entertaining fiction from a desperate victim.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Described as "crazy" in OP article
Looking at other evidence, including a serious head injury that Abu Zubaida had suffered years earlier, Coleman and others at the FBI believed that he had severe mental problems that called his credibility into question. "They all knew he was crazy, and they knew he was always on the damn phone," Coleman said, referring to al-Qaeda operatives. "You think they're going to tell him anything?"

Sounds to me like he's Curveball redux.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Curveball was telling Bush-Cheney what it wanted to hear, AZ told them stuff they didn't want to
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 08:30 AM by leveymg
know - like, their buddies in Saudi intelligence and Pakistani Air Force had planned 9/11.

Why do you think they've put this stuff out about AZ being crazy before he was tortured? It undercuts his credibility, and the evience that implicates Prince al-Turki, and the rest. Finally, do you really believe that they would have assassinated three Saudi princes and the Pakistani Air Chief on one crazy guy's say-so? You'd have to be nuts to believe so.

No, this stuff about AZ being insane smells like a cover story. What's your cite for that alleged head injury?
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. I've researched this in great detail
And you can see the results in a new timeline I've made of the CIA tapes scandal, here:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&complete_911_timeline__war_on_terrorism__outside_iraq=complete_911_timeline_destruction_of_cia_tapes

My conclusion is, I don't know if Zubaida was crazy or not, or if he was really very important in al-Qaeda or not, but it appears the rapport-building techniques being used by the FBI were working just fine at first. However, those with bully-like mentalities in the Bush administration and the CIA felt that the harsher the torture, the more info you get out of a person. Maybe they'd seen too many movies and TV shows like "24." But the real evidence suggests the exact opposite: information from torture is very unreliable because the person being tortured will make up anything to stop the torture. So as soon as the CIA torturers took over, the whole thing went to pot and they learned very little from Zubaida after that.

However, the CIA spun Zubaida's torture as a great big success and soon they started torturing all their key prisoners, hoping to reproduce the "success" they had with Zubaida. It's quite tragic, and yet another example how the Bush administration doesn't let facts get in the way of their ideas and plans.
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Here's some more info
These are some entries from my timeline and they basically confirm what this article says and then some. You can read more here:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=0&complete_911_timeline__war_on_terrorism__outside_iraq=complete_911_timeline_destruction_of_cia_tapes#alate2001egyptsoviets


Mid-April 2002: FBI Rapport Building Techniques Get Immediate Results with Zubaida, but CIA Stops Their Use
After being flown to a secret CIA prison in Thailand around mid-April 2002, Al-Qaeda leader Abu Zubaida is attended to by a mix of FBI and CIA agents. A CIA interrogation team is expected but has not yet arrived, so FBI agents who have been nursing his wounds are initially leading his questioning using its typical rapport-building techniques. (Vanity Fair, 7/17/2007) To help get him to talk, the agents bring in a box of audiotapes and claim they contain recordings of his phone conversations. He begins to confess. Just how useful his information will later be sharply disputed. The New York Times will note that officials aligned with the FBI tend to think the FBI’s techniques were effective while officials aligned with the CIA tend to think the CIA’s techniques were more effective. (New York Times, 9/10/2006) But in 2007, Vanity Fair will conclude a 10 month investigation comprising 70 interviews, and conclude that the FBI techniques were effective. After being shown a series of photographs of al-Qaeda leaders, he confirms that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (KSM) is known by the alias “Mukhtar,” a vital fact US intelligence discovered shortly before 9/11 (see August 28, 2001). He confesses that KSM planned the 9/11 plot, which US intelligence did not yet know. He also lays out the details of the plot. Vanity Fair will later comment, “America learned the truth of how 9/11 was organized because a detainee had come to trust his captors after they treated him humanely.” Zubaida also confesses to a plot against a US ally and reveals the name of Jose Padilla, an alleged al-Qaeda operative living in the US (see Mid-April 2002). CIA Director George Tenet reportedly blows up that the FBI and not the CIA obtained the information and he demands that the CIA team get there immediately. But once the CIA team arrives, they immediately put a stop to the rapport building techniques and instead begin implementing a controversial “psychic demolition” using legally questionable interrogation techniques. Zubaida immediately stops cooperating (see Mid-April 2002). (Vanity Fair, 7/17/2007) FBI agents appeal to their superiors but are told that the CIA is now in charge. (New York Times, 9/10/2006) In 2007, former CIA officer John Kiriakou will make the opposite claim, that FBI techniques were slow and ineffective and CIA techniques were immediately effective. However, Kiriakou led the team that captured Zubaida in Pakistan and does not appear to have traveled with him to Thailand (see December 10, 2007). (ABC News, 12/10/2007; ABC News, 12/10/2007)

Mid-April-May 2002: FBI Is Appalled by CIA Interrogation of Zubaida; Withdraws Its Personnel
Around mid-April 2002, the CIA begins using aggressive interrogation techniques on al-Qaeda leader Abu Zubaida. A new CIA team led by psychologist James Elmer Mitchell arrives and takes control of Zubaida’s interrogation from the FBI (see Mid-April 2002). This team soon begins using techniques commonly described as torture, such as waterboarding. Journalist James Risen will write in a 2006 book, “The assertions that the CIA’s tactics stopped short of torture were undercut by the fact that the FBI decided that the tactics were so severe that the bureau wanted no part of them, and FBI agents were ordered to stay away from the CIA-run interrogations. FBI agents did briefly see Abu Zubaida in custody, and at least one agent came away convinced that Zubaida was being tortured, according to an FBI source.” (Risen, 2006, pp. 32) Newsweek will similarly report in 2007 that Zubaida’s interrogation “sparked an internal battle within the US intelligence community after FBI agents angrily protested the aggressive methods that were used. In addition to waterboarding, Zubaida was subjected to sleep deprivation and bombarded with blaring rock music by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. One agent was so offended he threatened to arrest the CIA interrogators, according to two former government officials directly familiar with the dispute.” (Newsweek, 12/12/2007) The FBI completely withdraws its personnel, wanting to avoid legal entanglements with the dubious methods. The CIA then is able to use even more aggressive methods on Zubaida (see Mid-May 2002 and After). (New York Times, 9/10/2006)

Mid-April 2002: New CIA Team Arriving to Interrogate Zubaida Uses Completely Untried and Dubious Techniques
The FBI has been interrogating captured Al-Qaeda leader Abu Zubaida at a secret CIA prison in Thailand and learning valuable intelligence information (see Mid-April 2002). However, the prison is controlled by the CIA and the FBI are only in control until a team of CIA interrogators arrives, which apparently happens around mid-April 2002. The FBI has been using humane rapport building techniques, but the new CIA team immediately abandons this approach. The team is lead by psychologist James Elmer Mitchell, who runs a consulting business in Washington state with psychologist Bruce Jessen. Both worked in SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape), a classified US military training program which trains soldiers to endure being tortured by the enemy. Mitchell and Jessen reverse-engineered the techniques inflicted in the SERE training so they could be used on Zubaida and other detainees. (Vanity Fair, 7/17/2007) SERE trainees are subjected to “waterboarding (simulated drowning), sleep deprivation, isolation, exposure to temperature extremes, enclosure in tiny spaces, bombardment with agonizing sounds, and religious and sexual humiliation.” One European official knowledgeable about the SERE program will say of Mitchell and Jessen, “They were very arrogant, and pro-torture… They sought to render the detainees vulnerable—to break down all of their senses.” The use of these psychologists also helps to put a veneer of scientific respectability over the torture techniques favored by top officials. One former US intelligence community adviser will later say, “Clearly, some senior people felt they needed a theory to justify what they were doing. You can’t just say, ‘We want to do what Egypt’s doing.’ When the lawyers asked what their basis was, they could say, ‘We have PhD’s who have these theories.’” (New Yorker, 8/6/2007) But Mitchell and Jessen have no experience in conducting interrogations and have no proof that their techniques are effective. In fact, the SERE techniques are based on Communist interrogation techniques from the Korean War designed not to get valuable intelligence but to generate propaganda by getting US prisoners to make statements denouncing the US. Air Force Reserve colonel Steve Kleinman, an expert in human-intelligence operations, will later say he finds it astonishing the CIA “chose two clinical psychologists who had no intelligence background whatsoever, who had never conducted an interrogation… to do something that had never been proven in the real world.” FBI official Michael Rolince calls their techniques “voodoo science.” In 2006, a report by the best-known interrogation experts in the US will conclude that there is no evidence that reverse-engineered SERE tactics are effective in obtaining useful intelligence. But nonetheless, from this time forward Zubaida’s interrogations will be based on these techniques. (Vanity Fair, 7/17/2007)

Between Mid-April and Mid-May 2002: CIA Psychologist Opposed to Torture Techniques Planned for Zubaida Leaves in Disgust
Held in a secret CIA prison in Thailand, al-Qaeda leader Abu Zubaida is interrogated by a new team of CIA interrogators led by James Elmer Mitchell and Dr. R. Scott Shumate. Mitchell is a psychologist contracted to the CIA, while Shumate is the chief operational psychologist for the CIA’s Counterterrorist Center. Mitchell wants to use torture techniques based on reverse-engineering SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape), a class he has taught that trains US soldiers to resist torture by the enemy. But the techniques have never been tried before and studies will later determine they are not effective in obtaining good intelligence (see Mid-April 2002). Zubaida is resistant to Mitchell’s new aggressive techniques and refuses to talk. Mitchell concludes Zubaida will only talk when he was been rendered completely helpless and dependent, so the CIA begins building a coffin to bury Zubaida alive but not actually kill him. This creates an intense controversy over the legality of such a technique, and ultimately it appears it is never carried out. Both domestic and international law clearly prohibits death threats and simulated killings. However, a number of aggressive techniques have just been approved at the highest political level (see Mid-March 2002), so opponents to these techniques are mostly powerless. Shumate is so strongly opposed to these techniques that he leaves in disgust. He will later tell his associates that it was a mistake for the CIA to hire Mitchell. But with Shumate gone, Mitchell is now free to use more extreme methods, and the torture of Zubaida begins in earnest around the middle of May. (Vanity Fair, 7/17/2007) Around this time, the FBI also washes their hands of the controversial techniques and withdraws their personnel from the secret prison (see Mid-April-May 2002).

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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Paul, what's your take on Posner's account that AZ revealed the role of Saudi and Pakistani intel
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 08:39 AM by leveymg
in planning 9/11, and then 4 of the 5 were apparently assassinated? Do you think this is more or less credible than the story being put out by Suskind that AZ had been nuts long before he was captured?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I know you've thought about this a great deal. Who in your opinion
was this revealed to? CIA? I'm trying to think this through. If it is true (and I tend to think it's likely) CIA would already know, wouldn't they? If I know about the wire transfer from ISI to Atta, CIA knows.

Without going into the consequences (which will send this thread to the dungeon) I think I don't understand in what sense this would be a revelation.

Or, is it more that AZ gave up his contact(s)' names, and then that thread was followed back to a specific network?
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. What about Posner's claims?
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 04:22 PM by paulthompson
At first, I was highly skeptical, mainly because of Gerald Posner's history of trying to prove the Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone nut who killed JFK theory and things like that. But two things have convinced me that it's almost certainly true. One, James Risen has repeated and confirmed Posner's theory in his 2006 book, and I highly respect Risen. He's one of the very best journalists out there, on the level of Seymour Hersh. And two, I found out that the New York Times reported that Michael Chertoff (while serving as a Justice Department official) approved the use of the exact kind of false flag trickery Posner describes, and Chertoff was giving out that advice in response to questions about what could be done to Zubaida. So that almost certainly proves that there was an operation to make Zubaida think he was handed over to another country.

Plus, you're familiar with my timeline and you should be aware of a long, long list of evidence on how the Saudis and Pakistanis have collaborated with al-Qaeda for years, all the while posing as a close US ally, so this story fits in perfectly with that. Zubaida seems to have been the main communication link between the al-Qaeda base in Afghanistan and the outside world, and he was based in Pakistan all the while, so it makes sense that he would be a liaison with the Pakistanis and Saudis too. Not surprisingly, there are reports of the Pakistanis protecting Zubaida from arrest before 9/11, which also fits into this pattern of evidence.

As far as Zubaida being crazy, I'm not so sure about that. He may well have been slightly unhinged, but so what, so long as he is able to function competently? There are lots of cases throughout history of people having serious mental problems and continuing to function well, including a number of US presidents (Abe Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt were both manic depressive, for instance). So that to me is the more important question: was he competent? The very fact that he served as such a key communication link is pretty much proof that he was competent because bin Laden would have to be the crazy one to give that job to someone too crazy to function.
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sattahipdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. religious and sexual humiliation
Sen. Lindsey Graham :puke:

"I think quite frankly applying the Army field manual to the CIA would be ill-advised and
would destroy a program that I think is lawful and helps the country," Graham said in an interview.

....
The Army field manual, adopted in 2006, prohibits forcing detainees to be
naked, perform sexual acts, or pose in a sexual manner; placing hoods or
sacks over detainees' heads or duct tape over their eyes; beating, shocking, or
burning detainees; threatening them with military dogs; exposing them to extreme
heat or cold; conducting mock executions; depriving them of food, water, or
medical care; and waterboarding.

....The new enrollments reflect heightened anxiety at the CIA that officers may
be vulnerable to accusations they were involved in abuse, torture, human rights
violations and other misconduct, including wrongdoing related to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.”

http://harpers.org/archive/2006/09/sb-revolving-door-blackwater-1158094722
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. That was a fascinating piece - thank you for the link. nt
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
6. Torture is incredibly effective. Like that time they tortures all those jews, to get confessions for
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 03:56 AM by lvx35
causing the black plague. It worked, and they killed them en masse. Strangely though, even though the jews could no longer "poison" the people, the black plague continued. Go figure.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-18-07 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
7. What will turn out to be true is the info he gave BEFORE he was tortured - Saudi and Pakis intel
Edited on Tue Dec-18-07 07:32 AM by leveymg
apparently knew about planning for the 9/11 attacks, and some of its top officers facilitated mass murder of Americans. Four of the five figures identified by Abu Zubaydah were assassinated witthin a few months, except Prince al-Turki, head of Saudi external intel (GID), who was later welcomed by the Bush Administration as Saudi Ambassador to Washington. See, three recent articles on the common characteristic of CIA detainees who were tortured:

Daily Kos: Who Got Water Boarded and Why: What Tortured CIA ...
Why were four particular "high-value" detainees water boarded? ..... Entity Tags: CIA Kuala Lumpur station, Nawaf Alhazmi, Tawfiq bin Attash, ...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/12/17/82324/911/911/423196 - 3 hours ago - Similar pages

Daily Kos: Torture Tapes Weren't The Only Thing Erased by The ...
It has also been reported that other high-value detainees, KSM and Ramzi bin al-Sheibh (who was also present in Kuala Lumpur), have also been water boarded. ...
http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/12/12/125250/15/926/421147 - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

leveymg's Journal - CIA Detainee Torture, Memory Loss, and the ...
Rendered by the CIA to Morocco, where he was tortured for 18 months and had his ... detainees also planned or attended the January 2000 Kuala Lumpur meeting ...
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/leveymg/333 - 39k - Cached - Similar pages

Also, my 12/10 writeup of my conversation with Paul:

WHAT THE CIA DOESN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW ABOUT ABU ZUBAYDAH
Posted by leveymg in General Discussion
Mon Dec 10th 2007, 12:32 PM
Re: the CIA torture tape erasure. . . Now, here's the third reason: Abu Zubaydah was a key Al-Qaeda figure in the CIA's Chechnya operation, which involved several of the 9/11 hijackers. He was in a position to know about the relationship of the 9/11 Hamburg cell with the CIA.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/leveymg/331





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