Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversion to Christianity sparked death threats

[seriousstan]

Source: dailymail

The daughter of a British imam is living under police protection after receiving death threats from her father for converting to Christianity.



The 31-year-old, whose father is the leader of a mosque in Lancashire, has moved house an astonishing 45 times after relatives pledged to hunt her down and kill her.

The British-born university graduate, who uses the pseudonym Hannah for her own safety, said she renounced the Muslim faith to escape being forced into an arranged marriage when she was 16.

She has been in hiding for more than a decade but called in police only a few months ago after receiving a text message from her brother.


In it, he said he would not be held responsible for his actions if she failed to return to Islam.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=500087

[hobbit709]

1. Pick a religion, any religion-the fanatics are the same.

[seriousstan]

Bullshit. Start citing examples where holy texts state that converting to another religion is

punishable by death AND where someone in recent history has upheld that text. You must have dozens of examples.

There are more than enough examples for Islam. Government sanctioned even.

[hobbit709]

4. Nothing to do with holy texts

Spain with the Jews after the Moors were kicked out. England and Catholicism with Henry VIII and Elizabeth I, Martin Luther had a death sentence hanging over him after he nailed his theses to the door. The FANATICS in any religion are all the same-they're right because their holy text tells them so.

[pennylane100]

7. That was hundreds of years ago.

Of the mainstream religions, Islam is the only one where followers think it is OK to kill people (usually women) who do not toe the line. The fact they are still forcing their children to enter arranged marriages and issuing death threats for leaving is a sad testimony to the state of law and order in Britain.

The father should have been thrown in jail for making death threats and so should her brother.

[hobbit709]

9. One response-Abortion clinic bombers.

There are plenty of fanatics who would if they thought they could.

[seriousstan]

13. We are talking about a religion that calls for the death of those who leave it.

You response is invalid. Plenty of crazy people use religion to excuse their craziness. This is about the religion explicitly calling for the death of those that leave it.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

87. The Koran doesn't call for it.

Sharia calls for it. The Koran itself is silent on the subject of specific punishment for apostates.

[pennylane100]

15. I agree that abortion clinic bombers are fanatic killers

but I believe them to be outside of the mainstream of christianity. I also know that there are many moderate followers of Islam but I do believe that they are outnumbered by the strict fundamentalists.

[CJCRANE]

19. How many muslim countries can you name

and how many have you been to?

[pennylane100]

25. and that has to do with what?

However, because you think it is so important, I did live in Turkey for two years, and my son was born there. That was in the sixties when the turks were far less tolerant than they are today. And I loved every moment I was there.

[CJCRANE]

26. It's important because I think you're generalising.

I would personally generalise and say that Bush's War on Terror has actually been the main reason for the massive increase in Islamic fundamentalism in the last few years (that's just from anecdotal evidence and also statistics that show an increase in terrorism in ths time period). I still don't personally think that fundamentalists are in the majority.

[pennylane100]

27. Ask the nineteen year old woman who has just been sentenced to 200 lashes

and six months in prison because she was in the company a an unrelated male when she was gang raped. Ask all the women in Saudi that cannot drive or do much of anything without permission from some male. As all the women who are in hiding because their relatives are trying to find them so they and KILL them for breaking their rules. That is happening all over the world as we speak. Ask all they young girls that are getting mutilated in many muslim countries. I could go on but I have a feeling you would still not be convinced.

[CJCRANE]

28. There are 56 muslim majority countries*.

I agree that the practices you describe are reprehensible. But I don't believe that life for most people in muslim countries is a living hell as this kind concentration on certain incidents suggests.

We don't know what's going on in South America, India, China, Russia most of Asia and Africa because the MSM doesn't tell us and we're not interested. But don't think there aren't wars and crime and persecution of all sorts going on all over the world in non-muslim countries because there are. For instance how much do you know about the civil war in the Congo? A war that is only just finished but was the worst for civilian casualties since WWII. What about the genocide in Rwanda, a mere decade ago, in which local church leaders were complicit? Suddenly with the GWOT it seems that suddenly Islam is the source all evil in the world. The world is and always has been violent, Islam is just a part of that world.

And anyway the reality is that the oil sheikhs are laughing because Bush's GWOT and sabre-rattling has tripled oil profits. So his buddies are smiling while we're kept in place by fear.

On edit: *AFAIK from memory.

[JDPriestly]

41. In Egypt, converts to Christianity are imprisoned.

I heard about this before 9/11. It continues to this day.

After being held in detention for one year without charge under Egypt’s emergency laws, CSW has sadly learned that Mr Bahaa Ahmed Hussein Mohamed el-Akkad, aged 57, is still being kept by the State Security Intelligence Service (SSIS) in poor condition in the notorious Wadi el-Natroun Prison, even though a court ordered his release in July this year.

Mr Bahaa el-Akkad, who is married with three children, was arrested on 5 April 2005 following his conversion to Christianity just a few months before. He had been an active Muslim in his community and had previously published a book on Islam.

He was held without charge by the security forces in Torre Mazraa prison until July this year, when the Egyptian Government redefined the period of provisional detention. The new legislation allows a maximum of six months’ detention before an official charge must be made or the detainee released.

http://www.cswusa.com/Reports%20Pages/Reports-Egypt.htm

And here is a story from Afghanistan -- recently.

Rahman, a father of two, was arrested last week and is now awaiting trial for rejecting Islam. He told local police, whom he approached on an unrelated matter, that he had converted to Christianity. Reports say he was carrying a Bible at the time.

"They want to sentence me to death, and I accept it," Rahman told reporters last week, "but I am not a deserter and not an infidel."

The Afghan constitution, which is based on Sharia, or Islamic law, says that apostates can receive the death penalty.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/21/afghan.christian/index.html

Here is the general rule in Islam:

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed.<1> A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others. The Islamic laws governing apostasy are derived from the traditions (ahadith). According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law are derived from the Qur'an, <2> although the jurist Al-Shafi'i interpreted the Quranic verse as providing the main evidence for apostasy being a capital crime in Islam.<3>

Some contemporary Shi'a jurists, scholars, writers and Islamic sects have argued or issued fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is only punishable under restricted circumstances, but these minority opinions have not found broad acceptance among Islamic scholars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Face it. It is awful. And even if it is not enforced everywhere and always, this intolerance is a central belief in the Muslim religion. 9/11 did not cause this. And wishful thinking and turning a charitable but blind eye to it will not change it.

As a nation, we need to stand for tolerance and set an example of a nation that is tolerant of all religions and does not permit any religion to be intolerant.

[leftynyc]

44. The difference is that Sharia law

is state sponsored in many countries. Not in Britain, of course, but in enough countries that the comparison with our Christian or Jewish fundies is ridiculous.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

51. Which is why we must keep Church and State separate...

This example must be exhibited enthusiastically as we approach November 2008. There are fundies aplenty who'd like to impose "Christian" laws on the citizens of this country.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

85. There are idiots aplenty who would love to see Britain under Sharia law.

And rags like the Daily Mail love to find these morons and give them a platform from which to spew their gibberish, so that they can point and claim that Britain is "threatened" by Islam. All of which is not to say that Islamic fundamentalism isn't a problem here. It is. It's just not the existential threat that it's made out to be by the newspapers.

[LeftishBrit]

112. Exactly!

There are also plenty (rather larger number) of idiots who would like to see Britain dragged kicking and screaming back into a mythical Victorian age, and a lot of them read the Daily Mail!

Fortunately, neither is going to happen.

[CJCRANE]

18. No it's not. As per my post above

there are other cultures and other religions that do the same.

[seriousstan]

20. Name the other major religions. No major religions? Name the minor non-islamic religions.

[CJCRANE]

22. I already named two major religions.

There are over a billion Hindus. They also have fundamentalists.

Anyway, I am not here to p*** on other religions just to point out that certain cultural practices are not unique to muslims.

[LiberalFighter]

32. All making those threats should be deported back to original country

[treestar]

69. I agree with your last sentence

But I'm not sure the everyone who is a Muslim would subscribe to this. One hears about it from time to time, but it still may be unfair to broad brush everyone in the religion.

[tom_paine]

84. Not to defend barbarity, but I think you are forgetting the religious strife of N. Ireland.

Christian in basis, if I recall correctly.

It WAS hundreds of years ago, though...RIGHT?

Remeber in the 1300s, where Irish Catholics has taken to "kneecapping" Irish Protestants (as well as more than a few Irish Catholic "traitors") with shotguns.

What, they didn't have shotguns in the 1300s, you say? Did they have them in the 1980s and early 90s?

Oh.

[Marrah_G]

93. That was more of a war over turf not simply on faith

I do not think you can equate Northern Ireland with Countries that enforce Sharia law on their citizens. A closer example in my opinion would be the spread of Christianity, often by force, throughout Europe and the middle east. It was more of a "Believe in our God and Worship our way or we will take all you have, including your life if you oppose us."

[Zynx]

11. Nowhere in the New Testament is violence against non-believers encouraged.

Unless you want to count Revelation, which is very sketchy as to whether or not it should be in there.

[hobbit709]

16. Notice how all these fundie so-called Christians

are always ranting and raving about things from the Old Testament and completely ignoring the words of the New? And if you think they wouldn't try to implement the Old Testament punishments if they could, you're not on this planet.

[seriousstan]

17. You really have a hard time concentrating,don't you? ADD?

Or is there a reason you can't address the topc? You defend this action?

[hobbit709]

21. You can't comprehend what I said

I said fanatics are the same-pick a religion. Nowhere did I condone anything a fanatic does. I have less use for fanatics of any stripe-left or right, than I have even for Republicans. These fanatics should be locked up. The history of fanaticism has never been pretty. I have no use for ANYONE that tells me how to think, act, dress or live. And I don't have the right to tell anyone else the same. Religion is best kept inside yourself where it belongs.

[Occulus]

24. I've personally met so-called "mainstream" non-fundie christians

who have advocated, to me, personally, exactly that.

There are plenty of "mainstream" christians who would gladly "put all the fags on a train", permenantly silence doctors who practice abortions, and on and on. These aren't people you would consider fundies, either. Being gay, I'm hair-trigger sensitive to people like this. I can smell 'em a mile away, and they usually fall into the "let's make the OT law" camp.

If Huckster gets the POTUS, you can expect them to go through with it.

Please believe me on this. The chrisitians are just as bad as the Wahabbists on this score- they're just a whole hell of a lot more quiet. They are waiting for "their chance"- I've been told this and read it in more than one place. It's one of the reasons I stay as far away from vocal, outspoken christians of all sects- I don't know whether that cross hanging around their neck means they'll "pray for me"- or bloodily beat me into a hospital bed.

I live with a very real and understandable fear of this religion. They've killed a lot of people like me in this country. They've advocated that sick people who are like me be not only shunned, but quarantined or even killed outright. They get people like me fired from their jobs, and keep me and people like me from getting married and from basically enjoying life.

He's not defending "this action", he's merely pointing out that christians would do the exact same things if they felt they could in this country. As far as I'm concerned, they've already started.

[davidinalameda]

110. that doesn't sound like any of the mainstream Christians I know

and since I am one, I think I might know a bit about it

and since I'm a gay one, I might know a bit more about it than some others

[pegleg]

38. Oh horsecrap - Maybe a Fred Phelps type - That's about it.

[IndianaGreen]

56. Paul of Tarsus was quite a bigot, and the Book of Revelation is a book of revenge

All those that don't convert will die at the point of the sword.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CJCRANE]

5. There is the cultural element too.

In the Indian sub-continent and diaspora there are those who take hardline Hindu and Sikh views too on arranged marriage and apostasy. It isn't unique to Islam. However Christendom has pretty much grown out of this kind of thing.

[donsu]

6. ALL religions put women down, keep women down

nt

[seriousstan]

12. There is a huge difference between putting someone down and FUCKING KILLING THEM!

This doesn't just apply to women. It applies to all apostates.

What other excuses do you want to make for calling for the death of someone who changes their religion? Hmmmmm?

[spoony]

80. I'll be sure to tell my female pastor that

Thank you for bringing this to light so we can force her into silent subservience.

[Marrah_G]

95. NO-- All religions DO NOT

I agree that the major ones do, some more then others. But not all religions.

My own religion does not in any way oppress women. In fact, generally the leaders of our group are female, or a female/male partnership with the female having the last say in things pertaining to religion.

Note: Sorry I just get really irritated at being lumped into the Abrahamic religions as if there are no others. Sorry if I sounded bitchy.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oak2004]

100. This is not generally true of Islam

My sister-in-law converted from Islam to Catholicism when she married my brother. Her Palestinian-American family was not happy about it, but that's about it. Our two families are on good terms, and nobody is getting threats from anybody (well, other than the TSA who now holds my conservative Catholic 100% non-semitic brother up at airports under suspicion he might be a terrorist, but that's another story).

While certain elements of Islam need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world, those elements are not all of them, by far.

[Taverner]

101. Abortion Doctor Killings,

Christianity just has the advantage of being on the winning side of a technology war, so

[JDPriestly]

39. I changed religion at the age of 17-18. My parents were

deeply religious -- Christian, and they did not treat me any differently than before I changed to another religion. I have never heard of a person who was raised Christian being threatened with death for converting to some other religion -- not in the U.S. today. That is just insane. A threat like that is not about religion. It is about control and respecting another person's individuality.

[dmallind]

49. You need to hear more...

http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/12/19/australia-axe-attack-on-atheists.htm


http://atheism.about.com/b/a/258653.htm


http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/31/atheist-beaten-up-on-campus/


and that's after a couple minutes only....

[spoony]

81. So atheism is a religion when it's convenient, then?

[LanternWaste]

83. ...or a philosophy, or a political position, or even a hobby

"Pick a religion", or a philosophy, or a political position, or a hobby. Fanatics are all the same, regardless of whichever particular justification they use...

[donsu]

2. don't let the religiously insane men get away with this crap

Fight back - they are insane.

save a woman's life today

[Lasher]

3. This is some pretty sick shit.

Isn't any of it against the law in the UK? Particularly forcing a 16 year old to marry and surely have sex? Isn't that rape?

[PaulaFarrell]

14. Of course it's all against the law

That doesn't mean so-called 'honour' killings don't occur. The problem if anything is that police don't take it seriously because it seems so outlandish - to kill your child because they won't marry whom you want them to. It's pretty sick

[Lasher]

33. OK thanks Paula

Then the Brit police need to step up to some zero tolerance ass kicking on these sick bastards. Seriously. I don't want to see sane Muslims persecuted on account of outrages like this but if there is no way to exert control I don't see an alternative.

[dmallind]

8. DU believers take note: THIS is anti-Christian persecution

please make sure you can spot the difference.

[brentspeak]

23. ???

Did someone claim otherwise?

[dmallind]

29. Well that would be one question

...but one that might have also occurred to most people might have been "What else has been called anti-Christian persecution that might indicate people are confused about what it looks like?"

[IndianaGreen]

55. Christians have been at the forefront of persecution, intolerance, and holocausts

They sure have no moral authority to speak about religious persecution.

[LanternWaste]

97. Ok. I'll keep my mouth shut if I ever witness..

Ok. I'll keep my mouth shut if I ever witness religious persecution... :eyes:

[ChazII]

10. Sad. n/t

[kurth]

30. Primitive tribal crap

Evidently this shit is not uncommon in the UK:

Greengrocer Azhar Nazir, 30, and his cousin Imran Mohammed, 17, stabbed Samaira Nazir 18 times at the family home in Southall in April 2005. The 25-year-old recruitment consultant was killed after she asked to marry an Afghan man - instead of marrying someone in the Pakistani family circle.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/5179162.stm

[Heywood J]

54. Send them back.

I'm of the opinion that if you move to another country and commit a heinous criminal act like stalking and murder, you should be on the slow boat back - after your sentence is up. These are the kinds of crimes that make me wish transportation still existed, somewhere like the deep Antarctic.


The stalker brother and father in the OP should be deported immediately.

[LeftishBrit]

67. UK law certainly provides for serious criminals from abroad being deported after their sentences

Where this hasn't happened, it's generally been because of confusion in the system. John Reid, then Home Secretary, got into some trouble over just that a little while ago.

[ikojo]

63. A young Palestinian woman living in St Louis was killed

by her dad in 1989 allegedly because she had become too Americanized and was dating a black kid. This was big news at the time, and was way before 9/11/01.

The article below is taken from a larger article about lawyers relating cases that will stay with them. The lawyer in this case is now the attorney for the City of St Louis.

http://www.stlmag.com/media/St-Louis-Magazine/February-2006/Accidents-Of-Justice/

Tina, multilingual and bright, was a popular student at Roosevelt High School and had already been awarded a college scholarship. In 1989, the FBI began to suspect that Tina’s father, Zein, was a member of an Abu Nidal terror cell. He was placed under surveillance, and the family’s apartment was bugged. What the FBI caught on tape was chilling.

Upset that their daughter was dating an African-American boy, Zein and his wife, Maria, hatched a plan to murder their daughter. When Tina arrived home one night in 1989, Maria—a big, strong woman—held her daughter down while Zein stabbed her almost 20 times with a butcher knife.

snip

Joyce-Hayes says, “There was a point where he was pricking around her left breast,” and even though Zein was speaking in Arabic, there was “a cadence to his speech.” When the tape, the translations and the photos were matched, Joyce-Hayes says, it became clear that Isa was taunting his daughter. “Are you going to be a good girl now?” he asked as he stabbed her.

snip

Both parents were convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to die. Zein became ill and died on death row. Maria’s conviction was overturned, and she was sentenced to life in prison without parole at her second trial.

[kurth]

66. And we're letting shit like that into our country

[bitchkitty]

94. I remember that - so sad.

One of the reasons these cases aren't prosecuted in Great Britain, so I've been told, is that no witnesses ever come forward. In this case, the police never would have known the truth, but this man was under surveilance by the Feds, and they caught the whole thing on audio.

[boricua79]

31. it's just a minority guys

calm down. It's just a minority.

it's just a minority
it's just a minority
it's just a minority
it's just a minority
it's just a minority
it's just a minority

Nothing to see her...no evidence of backwardness here...nop...no need for an Enlightenment or Reformation in Islam at all...nop...it's just different cultures.

and remember...after all..

it's just a minority
:sarcasm:

and in case anyone doubts it's Islam that has the problem here, read this from the victim.

"I know the Koran says anyone who goes away from Islam should be killed as an apostate, so in some ways my family are following the Koran. They are following Islam to the word."

[nebula]

35. It's not a minority

honor killings are widely practiced in most muslim countries because the laws and traditions condones it.

[boricua79]

59. finally someone notices it

but to state it is to be "anti-Islamic".

I'm anti medieval Islam...how about that? If it were up to me, religion would not exist, but barring that possibility, I call for a modernizing of Islam to bring it up to civilized standards.

[JVS]

65. The question is: how constructive is it for outsiders like us to call for reform/enlightenment?

Would it help the situation, or would it make it seem that reform is a on outside pollution and not for the "true faithful"

[leftynyc]

79. I see your point, however,

when the only other option is to stay silent and let this continue, speaking out is better.

[JVS]

105. I would say that the other option is to look for voices within their society that speak out...

and try to see to it that they get heard, all while keeping a low profile yourself.

[donsu]

99. I don't think of myself as an 'outsider'. I'm a woman caring about other women

borders, countries, religions don't matter. I'm an insider.

[JVS]

104. Well middle-eastern muslims almost certainly would consider you an outsider.

Of course if you want to claim "you live in Western Europe now, so you must adapt" that's fair game too. They're also outsiders in a way and if can be treated the same.

[Dorian Gray]

34. Who could blame her for converting to any religion or non-religion

if the Islam she was taught was so hate filled.

[sarcasmo]

36. Religion, the real reason we fight Wars.

[pegleg]

37. So atheistic nations don't fight wars ?

[haele]

68. Say instead Religion is one of the primary excuses -

It really all boils down to "us against them" - and fearful people will use Religion as evidence to determine who "them" is. The reason for War is desire for power, fear of losing power, and hate of the unknown.
Every dictator, every leader, whether they claimed to be defending their faith or lack of a particular faith used religion as a scapegoat to wage war or initiate unjust actions. When faith is no longer a personal choice and becomes public policy, you know there's either a war or a pogrom that will be coming up soon.

Don't give those who feel the need to project their religious choices throughout history into a discussion a chance to muddy it. Fear -(known to many of my religious friends as "Anti-Faith") is the real killer of morals. Whether you're Atheist or Faithful, if you aren't afraid - of loss of community status, loss of power, loss of "face", loss of your resources - you'll be less likely to be brutal or hateful to the different than if you are fearful.

Both Torquemada and Stalin shared the same excuses - They wanted personal power and were so afraid of being challenged, they became brutal and murderous. Didn't matter what religious state they personally lived in, they were driven by fear. The only difference is which side of their personal beliefs concerning religion they used as an excuse to rally or exclude their people.

Haele

[Marrah_G]

96. Land and resources.

[LeftishBrit]

40. This is a disgusting situation

I would like to warn everyone again that the Daily Mail is NOT a reliable source; but in this case, the same story is being reported elsewhere, so it's probably based on fact.

Unfortunately, religious fanatics hate converts within their families and communities. (As regards the issue of whether this could happen with Christians: in Northern Ireland, Catholics and Protestants who converted or who married a member of the other denomination were indeed often in danger of violence from their community.)

Hoping for the young woman's safety!

[Turbineguy]

42. Sounds like her family has some issues.

Here's an idea: why don't they get jobs as waiters at a Bush family reunion?

[rpannier]

46. And the Imam and this womans brother are not in jail because???

Last I knew death threats are illegal.

[hollowdweller]

47. Islam is very hardcore on people leaving the fold.

I'd say internationally there is a significant minority who thinks killing a person who leaves Islam is OK. There might even be a slight Majority that thinks those people who leave should be punished in some way.

I had a friend who is a very well educated US muslim who said back in the 80's if he could find Salmon Rushdie he'd kill him. These days HE's in trouble because so many Arabs have joined his mosque that he's like an episcopal whose church was taken over by hard shell baptists.

I also know of Islamic people here in the US that converted and not only their family, but all their friends totally cut them off.

Not saying other religions can't be the same way just in Christianity that means you gotta pray for them to see the light where in Islam it mostly is interpreted that you should either cut them totally off or raise holy hell at them.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

88. "Significant minority."

Yes, if the figures in the article are to be believed (and considering the source is the Daily Mail they are suspect) then it's upwards of 30% of Muslims in Britain. This is not some radical fringe belief.

[UndertheOcean]

48. All muslim scholars I tried to argue with avoid this question like hell :

What is the stance of Islam on apostasy ?

Primitive religion.

[Sultana]

50. I hope she stays safe

and that her relatives get prosecuted. She should leave the country, I think they won't stop until they kill her.:(

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seriousstan]

53. Christians won't call for her death if she decides to leave that religion.

[eagler]

57. You really go out of your way to promote the democratic party cause

don't you? If your views ever become part of the platform ...

[INDIA]

58. "equally deplorable religion"....

living in a fantasy world are we? No rational thinking person could possibly compare the negatives of fundamentalist Christians (who are against gay marriage and abortion) to the negatives fundamentalist muslims (who mutilate women, kill gays, behead infidels, carry out 90% of the world's terrorist attacks, force women into marriage, deny women equal rights, brainwash children into raging anti-semites, deny the Holocaust, deny the existance of homosexuals, stone adulterers to death, and oh yeah...are against gay marriage and abortion.)

Unless you have some sort of agenda you're pushing, which you obviously do.

[treestar]

70. But maybe that's because of the differences in the cultures

and the Christians in the US knowing they can't get away with such things in the context of their culture.

The Dominionists would do this. Execute people for adultery, etc. They know they can't under the current political situation, whereas a Muslim, in a Muslim country, could get away with it.

But one thing I notice is often they call for or threaten the death, but how often do they actually do it? Salman Rushdie, for one, is still alive over 30 years later, it must be.

[INDIA]

73. You make one good point, and one weak one...

I agree that much of the difference is cultural. Our laws in the US do not allow (anymore) for racially or religiously motivated hate crimes, while in muslim countries, they look the other way. Our culture, as a general rule, is tolerant of other faiths, sexual orientations that don't fit in with the Christian ideal. (although some regions of the country are more tolerant than others) The difference is that Europe and the U.S. are "Western" cultures with a Christian sub-culture. There are also gay, racial, and regional (southern vs. midwester) subcultures in the U.S. There is not the same kind of separation between culture and religion in many muslim countries, they are one and the same, so to blame the culture of a muslim country is also to blame the religion.

I wouldn't characterize a country (the U.S.) that has openly gay street fairs, parades, magazines, websites, public figures, as well as leagalized abortion, and a multitude of faiths, a "Christian" culture. You won't find that in most muslim countries. The most moderate of them sell alcohol, that's about it. Forget about being openly gay in the Middle East, unless you're in Israel.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

86. We're not talking about Muslims in a Muslim country.

We're talking about Muslims in a lukewarm Christian, religiously tolerant country who are refusing to adapt to their host culture and attempting to enforce a brutal medievalism completely at odds with the culture and laws of the host country. There is no fucking excuse for it.


But one thing I notice is often they call for or threaten the death, but how often do they actually do it? Salman Rushdie, for one, is still alive over 30 years later, it must be.

Um, did you miss the assassination attempt, bombings of book stores, and the fact that he lived under police protection for years?

[treestar]

91. The F bomb really makes your point, doesn't it?

Of course just using that word makes you right. Of course there is no excuse for it, and it's not allowed in the U.K., and that's why they'll get arrested, but they came from a culture that meant their type of extremism could develop more easily. Islam just has too much of a grip on the cultures where it exists. Where it liberalized, it is no different. The whole point of making these stories so big in the media is to inflame the hatred of Muslims. Stuff like this happens all the time, and our culture has its own weaknesses (too many mass shootings for instance) but we all know why the MSM works to get us to hate Muslims.

[LeftishBrit]

102. This isn't a Muslim (or otherwise religious) country

so if this is true, he is breaking the law, and his actions will not be tolerated here; and he will likely end up being deported in the end.

[cigsandcoffee]

60. The replies to these threads are so predictable.

"ALL religions are bad!"

"Christians do it too!"

"This is cultural, and not Islam!"


Talk about being cowed by PC. Good fucking Lord.

Islam has a special problem, and one would have to be a total nincompoop to miss that.

Here's a for instance:

Recently, Madonna did some sort of new concert where she mocked Christianity by hanging herself from a cross. A few Christian groups moaned about it, most people yawned, and everything was quickly forgotten.

Now imagine if she'd had the balls to mock Islam instead of the old bits on the Christian faith. Anyone think her life would be the same today?

Not fucking likely. Ask any Danish cartoonist, or the ghost of Theo Van Gogh.

[Sultana]

61. Well said

:thumbsup:

[ohio2007]

62. pc crowd needs "rose colored glasses" to ignore the obvious

find fault in the ancient past of others to justify what the nut jobs are doing today.

They hope the crocodile eats them last......
;)

[Odin2005]

74. I totally agree with you on all the PC bullshit.

Especially over in Europe, politicians want to suck up to illiberal, barbaric crap in order to look "multiculturalist." The Danish cartoon incident was the last straw, I will not tolerate relativist BS arguments used to suck up to barbaric, sexist, ethnocentric crap in the name of "multiculturalism" any longer.

[rpannier]

78. Well said

:applause:

[leftynyc]

82. Bravo and amen

The cultural relativism has got to stop - those making those comparisons look like idiots.

[mainegreen]

98. "A special problem".

:rofl:
I love your choice of words there.
To call the propensity to kill and maim people just for the hell of it 'a special problem'.

BTW, totally agree w/your post. Just found the choice of words esp. hilarious.

[JVS]

64. Isn't this the kind of thing that Pope Benedict XVI was talking about when people got super-pissed?

[treestar]

71. No, he wasn't talking about anything specific at all

The problem with these incidents is people using them to claim Islam is "worse" than other religions. It has more to do with the fact that religion has much more influence on government in those countries, and there is far less tolerance of other religions.

The Christians who are fundies here know they don't have government on their side, and know that the culture and the law tolerate other religions, so they couldn't get away with this type of thing, but that doesn't mean they don't think it should be done. How often do they whine about how they are "persecuted" when they are only prevented from imposing their will on others?

[cigsandcoffee]

72. Right now, Islam is "worse" than other religions.

Hands down. But this begs the question - why do you feel inclined to stick up for Islam while making sure to denigrate Christians for what they may do "if given the chance?" Why the benevolence toward Islam and the bias against Christianity? I'm at a loss to explain your thinking.

What we're seeing in Islamic countries now (and in Britain!) is not a hypothetical. It's real.

[treestar]

75. It's still not worth condemning the whole religion over

And as I said, the cultural background is different.

The extremist Christian cannot act on their extremism so easily. But they are out there.

Just google "Dominionist."

[cigsandcoffee]

76. Nobody is "condemning the whole religion."

Some of us are noticing its rather robnoxious extremist problem, though.

Maybe you can explain why you're predisposed to stick up for Islam while making a point to assure us how bad Christianity "could be" if given the chance. It's frankly bizarre to me.

[ohio2007]

77. Somali Women: 'We don't want any Christians and Ethiopians inside our country

video;
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0de10df3de


Somali Woman Threatens to Dine on Her Ethiopian Neighbors

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ed20e5e5b4

Muslims should be condemning fellow Muslims, but don't hold your breath.

[treestar]

90. I think you are trying to imply one religion is worse than others

And you ignored my point about the Dominionists and how they don't get their way because of the pluralism of our society (which they condemn) and the fact that Muslim extremists often have a government and a less pluralistic society to back them up.

All religious extremists are bad, your second sentence shows that you want us to believe Islam is worse than Christianity and then ends in a personal attack (a sure sign you can't prove your point and won't come out with it - that you want us to acknowledge that one religioni is "better" than another).

[cigsandcoffee]

109. The Dominionist bit is a red herring.

Are there extremists in Christianity? Sure? Are they a significant power base in global politics? Not by a long shot. Islamic extremists are.

As I said, Islam is - right now - worse than other religions. I base that on the frequency of horrors suffered in direct violation of human rights. No other religion comes close. But acknowledging that it's "worse" at the moment is not to imply that it is more flawed by design or less subject to improvement.

Could the status quo change? Sure. But for the moment, it's standing pretty hard.

Maybe if more people put the same pressure on Islam that they do on Christianty, the change would come sooner. That might be worth a thought.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

89. Yes. It IS worse. But not by any merits of Christianity, mind you.

Christianity essentially LOST the fight of ideas to rationality, science, and enlightenment. That's why the West has a kinder society. Islamic countries didn't benefit from anything like that.

And, of course, the losers want a rematch. Whether they'll get one is still unknown.

[cigsandcoffee]

108. I'm curious. Why go hard after Christianity while sticking up for Islam?

What makes Islam worthy of your obvious moderation toward it, while Christianity gets a more hostile approach?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

113. "Sticking up?" Obvious moderation? Openly hostile? Chip on shoulder much?

I shouldn't have to offer any kind of proof of fairness to you, but here it goes because I'm feeling nice today: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2296849

[theredpen]

115. Right. Sure it did.

Christianity essentially LOST the fight of ideas to rationality, science, and enlightenment.

Well, I hope the Democratic candidate in 2008 turns out to be as big a loser as Christianity. 85% of the American population would be a nice "loss."

[Marrah_G]

92. Can he not be arrested for stalking or threats or something?

Does Britain have laws on the books against those things?

I feel very badly for that girl. How horrible to know your parent cares more for his religion then he does for you. I cannot imagine.

[LeftishBrit]

103. Yes. He can. And very likely will.

At present, a lot of this story is being kept confidential, presumably to protect the woman's safety while investigations are made. But certainly, if the allegations are correct, his actions are totally against the law.

'How horrible to know your parent cares more for his religion then he does for you'

Yes indeed. But sadly that's not such an uncommon situation, though it usually does not reach such extremes.

[cigsandcoffee]

107. And now in Canada...

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071211175557.p3d3kaah&show_article=1

Friends and classmates of a 16-year-old girl who police say was murdered by her devout Muslim father in a Toronto suburb told local media Tuesday she was killed for not wearing a hijab.

Police said in a statement they received an emergency call at 7:55 am local time Monday from "a man who indicated that he had just killed his daughter."

.....

Her father, Muhammad Parvez, 57, was arrested at the scene and will be formally charged with murder when he appears in court Wednesday, said police.

The girl's friends, meanwhile, told local media she was having trouble at home because she did not conform to the family's religious beliefs and refused to wear a traditional Islamic head scarf, or hijab.

[Dr. Strange]

114. Yes, but Christianity is much worse!*

*"Yes, but Christianity is much worse!" is a trademark of KneeJerk, Inc. Any use of this trademark phrase or any likeness thereof is heavily regulated by copyright law. This applies to all trademark phrases of KneeJerk, Inc, including, but not limited to, "Yes, but America is much worse!", "Yes, but men are much worse!", and "I expect better from a true progressive!"

[davidinalameda]

111. Islam may not be a religion of violence

but certainly some of its followers are awfully fond of violence

Iran and Saudi Arabia both have state policies of killing gays

[High Plains]

116. How many Muslims live in the UK? And...

how many Muslim dads are killing their daughters?

Maybe Islam is not the problem.