Israel Fears Isolation, Sanctions Over Fence

[45th Med]

Slam the Court, Advisers Urge

By ORI NIR

WASHINGTON — Bracing for a ruling against its separation fence by the World Court — which could pave the way for South Africa-style international sanctions — Israel and its allies here are considering a campaign to discredit the court as a biased organ of the United Nations.

http://www.indiemediamagazine.com/article.php?story=20040109044141786">Isreal Fears Isolation, Sanctions over Fence

[mike_c]

1. unbelievable....

When faced with justice, discredit the judges. Israel has no honor left.

[Jim Sagle]

2. Sorry, it's the court that has no honor. Israel RAWWWWWKSSS!!!

[kalian]

4. Oh, so Israel is above the law....

gee...I must've missed that one... :eyes:

[DuctapeFatwa]

7. That is US policy, and the policy of both Repub and Dem parties

Don't know how you missed it, it's the cornerstone of US foreign policy.

[45th Med]

10. pretty much.....

we're paying for that fence, btw.

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. Internal security

The World Court has no standing on an internal security matter.

[45th Med]

20. That's what their nukes are for....

NUKE PALESTINE!

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. Thanks for that rational thought

Well, it was something at least.

[45th Med]

22. Maybe we should give Palestine Nukes too?

I have $5 for the donation pot.

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. That says so much

About all your posts.

[45th Med]

26. So, that gives Israel the right to oppress a minority?

Militarily occupy Palestine and kill stone throwing kids? We could have taken that path during the Civil Rights movement.........did we?

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. Ah, the hyperbole

You condense the conflict down further than it is. Perhaps you should back up and point out that the "stone throwing kids" are doing so in the middle of combat zone (a hazardous occupation), made dangerous by the psycho, baby-killing terrorist scum who deliberately and cowardly hide behind the skirts of Palestinian women because they are afraid to face Israeli troops in the open.

[el_gato]

49. meahwhile the IDF murders people with impunity

mud your hyperbole is lame
and your double standards are sad

[truthspeaker]

33. How is a fence OUTSIDE Israel's borders an INTERNAL security matter?

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Israel is in charge of ALL of that land

And will remain so until there is a peace treaty to help sort things out.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Israel does NOT have the right to do anything it wants with that land...

It's occupied territory, and Israel as the occupying power has obligations towards the occupied population. Things like demolishing homes and building walls and settlements wherever it wants are violating those obligations...


Violet...

[Red Bob]

45. Both Sides Are Playing It Badly

Israel is totally in the wrong to occupy foreign lands, build walls through them, bulldoze houses and building settlements. The Palestinian Authority isnt perfect, granted it does nothing about resistence against the occupiers within the territories but thats understandable, if my country was being occupied by a foreign power and they were doing that sort of stuff I dont think id sit at home and just take it but by not doing enough to stop attacks against Israel itself they are not doing themselves any PR favours. The ANC managed to make White South Africans look like the bad guys, the IRA made the British look like the bad guys but the PLO is utterly failing to make Israel look like the bad guy to a lot of the world.

Arafat needs to make the transition to peace leader like Nelson Mandella did because as long as he remains a freedom fighter he will not be able to reach a settlement. Fighting for your freedom only ever gets you so far, you have to do the last bit through negociation like Mandella did, like the original IRA did in the 1920s but the PLO seems to be faultering at this last stage.

[Scurrilous]

46. Welcome to DU Red Bob..

...:toast:

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Since when is the West Bank part of Israel?

It's not, it's not an internal security matter, and the World Court does have the authority to issue an advisory opinion on issues such as this. We've been through this only a few days ago, Muddle, and you failed to show how the court doesn't have authority to issue opinions, so if you still believe it doesn't have the authority to issue an opinion, feel free to explain why...

Violet...

[David__77]

50. West Bank is NOT "internal security."

If the wall/fence was put on Israeli territory, then it would be internal security. The West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights have not been formally annexed by Israel, and no nation on earth recognizes them as part of Israel.

[mike_c]

6. it's a good thing you weren't in charge at Nuremburg....

This (the wall) is the same strategy the Germans used in Warsaw. Sure, any court that finds that objectionable, e.g. the nuremburg Tribunal, must be corrupt....

on edit: apologies in advance if you were being sarcastic-- I'm wound a little tight tonight.

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. By that bogus definition

Any nation that builds a border fence (and most do) is using the, "same strategy the Germans used in Warsaw." Yeah, right out of the demonizing Israel playbook, comparing them to the Nazis.

I am seldom amazed any more here.

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. Border fence? What border fence?

A border fence has to run along a border. Get a dictionary.

[drewb]

40. Good point...

btt...

[Chovexani]

39. It's really a moot point IMO

'Cause, you know, walls have worked so well in history.

[The Stranger]

47. I believe the reference is to the walls Nazis built around the ghettos.

The Israeli wall is built around refugee camps.

And the similarities are so very, very shocking.

[Zhade]

11. Yeah - murdering innocent Palestinians while stealing their land RAWWWKKS!

:eyes:

[45th Med]

18. don't forget Rachel Corrie.

nt

[Zhade]

29. I won't.

I gave her parents my condolences during a call-in show. It was very emotional. I wish there had been no condolences needed.

[burrowowl]

12. Go here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=998824

My dead Jewish friends would be very much against what Sharon is doing.
And those who are alive are very much against what Sharon is doing.

[45th Med]

16. one of my favorite Israeli websites is Jewish Friends of Palestine

www.jewishfriendsofpalestine.org

[The Zanti Regent]

13. Sicko Sharon is running on borrowed time.

Demographics are working against Likud. Since the Palestinians have many more children it is only a matter of time before the Jews are a minority in Israel.

[Muddleoftheroad]

17. You need to recheck your math

The Jewish people outnumber non-Jews in Israel 5 million to 1 million. The numbers you attempt to refer to include Palestinians in the territories and bear no relation to the argument you put forth.

[45th Med]

19. Well, if Palestinians who were kicked out....er....

asked nicely to leave their homeland were included, Arabs would out number Jews and they would immediately become a minority.

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. You mean if the Palestinian who left were included?

Israel would still be in a massive majority.

Only if you use the PA/PLO's excessive refugee numbers that allow sons and daughters and son and daughters of sons and daughters of refugees to qualify for that status.

Funny, I see lots of folks here all worried about Palestinian refugees and none who seem to give a damn about the massive ethnic cleansing that went on in the Arab world causing hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees.

[45th Med]

25. So, no right of return? Who's land was it in the first place?

The Zionists didn't want to create a new Jewish state in Uganda....

Maybe we should have built a wall around the Confederate South to keep all the Blacks out.

ummmm, not.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. Whose land was it

Let's see. Go to the Dome of the Rock, one of the coolest sights I've ever seen. Then, after you are done enjoying the beauty, look down. The stones at your feet were part of the Temple of Solomon, built by Jews hundreds of years before.

Whose land indeed.

[Zhade]

30. What, because some book says that, suddenly it's okay to steal land?

Same argument many pro-Manifest Destiny types use.

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. That book would be a history book

The temple is very real. I trust you do not deny that?

[bpilgrim]

36. that must be a zinn or parenti history book

most of the others usually gloss over this sad fact of state history.

The Assassination of Julius Caesar
A People's History of Ancient Rome



Most historians, both ancient and modern, have viewed the Late Republic of Rome through the eyes of its rich nobility. They regard Roman commoners as a parasitic mob, a rabble interested only in bread and circuses. They cast Caesar, who took up the popular cause, as a despot and demagogue, and treat his murder as the outcome of a personal feud or constitutional struggle, devoid of social content. In The Assassination of Julius Caesar, the distinguished author Michael Parenti subjects these assertions of "gentlemen historians" to a bracing critique, and presents us with a compelling story of popular resistance against entrenched power and wealth. Parenti shows that Caesar was only the last in a line of reformers, dating back across the better part of a century, who were murdered by opulent conservatives. Caesar's assassination set in motion a protracted civil war, the demise of a five-hundred-year Republic, and the emergence of an absolutist rule that would prevail over Western Europe for centuries to come.

Parenti reconstructs the social and political context of Caesar's murder, offering fascinating details about Roman society. In these pages we encounter money-driven elections, the struggle for economic democracy, the use of religion as an instrument of social control, the sexual abuse of slaves, and the political use of homophobic attacks. Here is a story of empire and corruption, patriarchs and subordinated women, self-enriching capitalists and plundered provinces, slumlords and urban rioters, death squads and political witchhunts.

The Assassination of Julius Caesar offers a compelling new perspective on an ancient era, one that contains many intriguing parallels to our own times.

more...
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Caesar.html

peace

[Scurrilous]

37. Look under the stones...

..of the Temple of Solomon and you'll find the remains of the Canaanite city the Jews built their homes and places of worship atop. Some cities in that area were built over 5,000 years ago and have been continually occupied since. Whose land indeed?

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. I don't see any Canaanite complaints of Diaspora

But Jews have spent 2,000 years trying to reestablish their state. They finally have done so and no amount of suicide bombings is going to change that fact.

[oneighty]

52. Sort of like

Native Americans isn't it. Give your property back to them!

I know that will happen.

Sigh

180

[Zhade]

31. Question: under the Jewish Law of Return, who is excluded?

?

[Scurrilous]

44. Anyone who believes....

.....that the Palestinians voluntarily left Israel, should read this:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/380986.html

[David__77]

51. Is there a demand by Jews to return to those countries?

That matters. Many thousands left Iraq, for instance, and I'm certain lost a lot of property and were brutalized in the process. If there were a demand to return to Iraq as citizens, I think you'd hear a whole lot of progressives defending and supporting them. But it seems that there is little if any demand for that. On the other hand, those who fled war in Palestine/Israel or were evicted do wish to return.

[burrowowl]

3. Sharon's government has also put some

Refusniks in prison.

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. Surely the US will bomb the court and any country who dares to criticize

its fat little pitbull.

[daleo]

8. If only Reagan were still around

"Israel, tear down this wall."
"Mr. Bush, let Iraq be Iraq."

[45th Med]

9. Sorry, bad link....

Israel Fears Isolation

[bpilgrim]

35. hasn't stoped sharon before

and besides... he's got the 'FACTS ON THE GROUND'...

U.S Financial Aid To Israel:
Figures, Facts, and Impact
Summary

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630


Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Cost per Israeli
$23,240

more...
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

current figures are a NATIONAL SECURITY CONCERN.

and so it goes...


peace

[jpgray]

43. That's it, folks--we're being led over a cliff (nt)

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

54. Somehow, this turned into an I/P debate

And we all know where I/P debates belong...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=124