Romney Shouldn't Equate Mormons, Christians, Evangelicals Say

[swag]

Source: Bloomberg

Oct. 30 (Bloomberg) -- As Mitt Romney scours the South for endorsements from evangelical leaders, he is getting some unusual advice on how to explain his Mormon faith: Don't try to be one of us.

``I told him, you cannot equate Mormonism with Christianity; you cannot say, `I am a Christian just like you,''' said Representative Bob Inglis of South Carolina, which is scheduled to hold the first primary among the Southern states. ``If he does that, every Baptist preacher in the South is going to have to go to the pulpit on Sunday and explain the differences.''

This advice, which reflects the views of many Southern Baptists and other evangelicals, makes Romney's co-religionists bristle. ``The fact that we are Christians is non-negotiable,'' said Kim Farah, a spokeswoman for the Salt Lake City-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

In seeking the Republican nomination, Romney, 60, has to court the church-going voters who make up almost 30 percent of the party's electorate. Evangelical leaders are urging him to explain his faith, much like John F. Kennedy addressed his Catholicism before the Greater Houston Ministerial Meeting during his 1960 presidential run. In many ways, Romney faces a tougher task than Kennedy did.


Read more: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aU_vOirVlXhY&refer=home

[mac56]

1. Good.

Let 'em spar amongst themselves.

[Frank Cannon]

7. It's one of those fights where you don't care who wins...

as long as someone loses, and it's a nasty, drawn-out mess.

[yellowcanine]

26. No kidding. Pass the popcorn. And for the first time I am sorry Falwell isn't around flapping his

piehole. I am sure he would have something entertaining to add to this pissing contest. Maybe "Hurricane Pat" Robertson will come up with a juicy morsel.

[insanad]

18. He's a member of a "Judeo Christian Sect"!!!

Emancipated Mormon vs "Member of a Judeo Christian Sect"
Mitt Romney is a card carrying dyed in the wool Mormon, but that also makes him a strong believer in doing whatever it takes to get what he wants, even manipulating the press, "lying for the Lord", feigning his manly hunter prowess, or denying his own faith and background in the LDS church. He comes from a long line of men who have been carefully conditioned to manipulate words and even practice such "faux paus" as what he did in correcting his words.

As a former Mormon I recall many many lessons on doing just this. From the teachings that blacks and other people of color will become "A white and delightsome people" when they become Mormons, to revisionist history in many other issues the Mormons, especially the hierarchy and leadership, reflects the extent they'll go to to deny, distort, cover up, and manipulate the information. Mitt Romney is a 6th generation or more of this kind of practice. Don't doubt for a moment that he knew what he was saying, doing, and how he'll use such little things to try to whittle away at the opponent.

When he spoke out to Larry King about how he thought there was nothing more horrible than Polygamy, then told the Newsweek reporter that he was a member of a Judeo Christian religion, and much more are all reflections of his willingness to minimize his religious background, deny his own culture and faith, and jettison loyalties faster than grease through a goose. I too think Polygamy is horrible, but as a former Mormon, I would not deny my own heritage in something that the bulk of the people believed in and supported, even if I did not agree. I too would not be too excited about calling myself Mormon if my actions did not reflect the teachings of the Church's doctrine, but he claims to be one of the good ones. To call himself a member of a "Judeo Christian sect" is akin to denying his own faith. The cock will crow twice more and no doubt Mitt Romney will deny his own faith at least that many more times before the years up. He makes me sick, not just as a devious Mormon, but as a human being.

The Southern Carolinians and Bob Jones University officials, Born Agains, and other so called Christians who are willing to sell out to support "the best of the worst" are going to get exactly what they deserve if they continue to support this charlatan. He'll be as easily swayed and disloyal to them and their bigoted narrow causes as he is to his own faith and family. This guy is a puppet and a joke. Stick him in the window of a department store with a nice suit and shove your hand up his arse to make him say whatever you want him to say. He's what those out of the church call a Mor-bot, a McMormon, a figurehead. I'm embarrassed to call him American. ashamed that he is a reflection of the Mormon Church (even though I don't like the doctrine), and ashamed that he's still part of the human race. In two years he'll be the butt of jokes whether he succeeds or not. America, do not make the mistake of letting another Moron, Mormon, oops, member of THE Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints rise to power. If I've offended anyone, I sincerely apologize. (if I nod my head and slightly close my eyes and use that sing songy voice, does it make it sound more sincere?) Excellent... you are all now placated.

[King Coal]

58. Good for you, insanad, good for you. And welcome to DU!

For the life of me, I can't believe how some people can embrace the Democratic Party and the crackpot teachings of Joseph Smith. It is refreshing to hear the truth from an experienced teller. May the crybaby tears dry up, and the truth flow as a gushing stream.

Welcome again and again good on ya!

Edited to get your handle spelled correctly.

[Solly Mack]

2. snort

fighting over who is and isn't "Christian"

LMAO

[dmallind]

3. Yeah that never happens here either ;) NT

lkjljk

[Solly Mack]

8. teehee hehehehe

ahem...hehehehe

just all the time

[MADem]

54. Mah, mah, mah...how very UNCHRISTIAN of them!!! nt

[C_U_L8R]

4. sanctimonious slimeballs

god laughs at them

[anniebelle]

5. The holier-than-thou wars are upon us.

My local newspaper, The Chattanooga News-Free Press (their name says it all), says there is a holy war against the "christians" here in this church-on-every corner town. I think all the letters to the editor this week have been telling us of the "assault on christians".

[Al Federfer]

11. Christian leaders want to keep the flock in a militant mode...

That's why we're seeing all this bullshit about poor, oppressed Christians. Their idea of religious oppression is when they aren't allowed to impose Christianity on everyone else.

[King Coal]

6. No, see, Romney is right. Mary Magdalene had sister wifes. The Grailettes.

Holy Moroni and Mama needs a new pair of shoes! And no crybaby monkey-bidness is needed!

[Chovexani]

42. ROFL

You deserve a DUzy for that one :rofl:

[bunkerbuster1]

65. Kickin'

This individual post, that is. Great stuff.

the Grailettes. Sister-wifes. heh.

[Wapsie B]

9. It's great to see this intra-party war coming to a head.

Now we'll see that if Mitt is the nominee whether or not the conservative fundies will be true to their convictions and go 3rd party or just sit this one out. Me thinks they'll try everything to derail his campaign. Not that I'll cry either way.
One wonders though how long will these people go before they realize their just being used?

[BearSquirrel2]

37. This is just a prequel ...

Honestly, this type of intra-religious bickering by fundamentalists is just a prequel to what would happen if they ever did take over. The real nastiness would ensue once they had to figure out WHICH church to force all the gays, agnostics, athiests, muslims, wiccans, sikhs, hindus and shintos to.

[Cirque du So-What]

10. Most mainstream protestant denominations have a problem with Mormonism

http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_crit.htm

Ted Haggard described it as a 'Christian cult.' I don't give a rat's patoot personally about squabbles and charges of heresy, but if it creates division among the 'religious right,' then let the fur fly!

[Orsino]

12. "[E]very Baptist preacher in the South is going to have to go explain the differences..."

Which is our first clue that those differences are importnt only to those preachers.

Another salvo in the same old who-owns-Jesus wars.

[swag]

13. My mom is a fundamentalist parishioner and she thinks Mormons are

being deceived by Satan.

Of course she thinks that I am also.

[Orsino]

16. You aren't.

I checked with Satan, and he still insists that he meant every word.

[Alter Ego]

21. It's also an insight into the hivemind of some churches

The preachers don't think their parishioners are smart enough to see the distinction.

They say "Jump", the flock asks "How high?".

[bpeale]

14. if ever there are sheeple in this country...

the mormons are those sheeple. they tie themselves hand & foot to their mormon president. i know. i used to be one of them. this is not like being catholic at all.

[GodlessBiker]

15. If there is a God, I'm sure It is saying, "What the hell are these people talking about?"

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

17. As a former Mormon

It always annoyed me that some people refuse to consider Mormons as Christians. I say, you are a Christian if you consider yourself one. If there is a set criteria for what makes a person a Christian, such a criteria would only exist because someone made it up, long ago. It's not written in the stars, it's just religious elitism. Like the child constantly making up rules that keep the undesirable neighborhood children out of his exclusive tree house club. Of course, I'm an agnostic, borderline atheist, so I suppose I look at it differently, but for a faith that claims to be inclusive, Christians sure can be divisive, in the most condescending way. Not to mention the fact that Mormons have endured some fairly serious persecution in their history and in a nation founded on the principals on religious freedom, no less. I have to admit, I have had my differences with the Mormon church, and that's why I completely disassociated myself with the organization, but I respect their right to live according to their beliefs (even if they don't always offer me the same consideration).

[Trajan]

36. I have often wondered at what rate Mormons cast off faith ....

and enter agnostic or atheistic skepticism .... I know many Catholics and Jewish peel away from the mother church and father synagogue ..... I dont know many former Mormons who leave entirely ....

It's good on you ....

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

47. I realized pretty early that

Mormonism specifically, and religion in general, were not for me.

[fishwax]

50. probably more than you think--i've known several

many of them retain certain cultural aspects from the church, but then the same is true for many who leave the Catholic church--but I've known several who have left the church entirely and are now agnostic (or perhaps generically spiritual, with no attachment to any specific creed or organized faith).

[Trajan]

53. I was raised in strict catholicism ...

But became Atheistic in my teens ...

I still carry the infamous 'catholic guilt' within my essential self .... The indoctrination of the Catechism leave indelible hallmarks within the personality .... They were deeply ingrained through early pedagogy, and will never go away ..... I'm sure it is similar for everyone else ....

(PS: 9998)

[fishwax]

55. hehe--i hear ya

a family member of mine used to describe himself as a recovering catholic, and I've always thought that captured a pretty accurate truth--as with alcoholism, you can't hope to eliminate or escape it, but only learn to cope with the effects of that which is quite deeply ingrained :)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. Never mind Mormons, some evangelical fundies say CATHOLICS aren't Christians!

Which reminds me of this joke:


I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. I immediately ran over and said "Stop! Don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

"Like what?"

"Well ... are you religious or atheist?"

"Religious."

"Me too! Are you Christian or Jewish?"

"Christian."

"Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

"Protestant."

"Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

"Baptist."

"Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

"Baptist Church of God."

"Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God."

"Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!"

To which I said, "Then die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.

[psychopomp]

44. Christians have the Old and New Testaments

That is all that is required for Christians. Mormans have a third book, the "Book of Mormon." In it are all kinds of teachings that are counter to Christianity. Mormons Christians? Not at all. Quite different, actually.

[fishwax]

49. but not all Christians have the same old and new testament

[psychopomp]

51. Aren't the books the same, just different translations

and wordings, or is there something different about them?

I do not know of any Christian sect that uses different books. Perhaps you can help?

[fishwax]

52. no, the books themselves are different, particularly in the old testament

The most prominent difference is between the Catholic Old Testament and the Protestant Old Testament. The Catholic Bible includes the books of Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, the Book of Wisdom, and a couple more. They also have additional passages in a couple of books (Esther and Daniel). Some of the Orthodox Catholic Churches (Greek Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox) include additional books/passages on top of these as well.

The new testament is generally the same among all major organized churches, though that has not always been the case. The Ethiopian Orthodox church apparently used to include several additional books in the new testament, but no longer do. (Among larger denominations, there is now widespread agreement on the New Testament Canon, but I can't speak to what differences might exist in small, independent, unaffiliated churches ...)

On edit: of course, plenty of people don't consider Catholics to be Christians either--I got that plenty when I was growing up, and the inclusion of the apocrypha was part of that argument ...

[onesys01]

66. Find me one place in the Book of Mormon that is counter to the bible....

Go on, I dare you, chicken? Obviously you're being told a lie by someone else, but whatever.

[Chovexani]

72. I'm just a Pagan

But I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't say anything about getting your own planet.

[LanternWaste]

82. "Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is holy scripture...

"Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is holy scripture and as another testament of Jesus Christ, a companion to the Bible."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism


That, in and of itself is a direct contradistinction to the Christian tenet that the Bible and only the Bible is Holy scripture.



(Do you always call people you don't agree with a chicken, or is it something new?)

[Demit]

19. "When he goes around and says Jesus Christ is my Lord and savior, he ticks off

at least half the evangelicals,'' Land said. (Richard Land is a leader of the 16 million-member Southern Baptist Convention.)


Gasp! Someone who believes in Jesus Christ is calling himself a Christian!! Why, the nerve of the man!!!

[truthisfreedom]

20. And this is why religion doesn't belong in government.

So stop it already.

[Taverner]

22. Simply because the Mormons don't adhere to the Nicene Creed

Somehow this has become a litmus test for all Fundies and Catholics: if you don't believe in the trinity, then you aren't a Christian.

Funny, I thought Christian simply meant "trying to be like Christ." Of course, that would mean the Fundies aren't Christian ;)

[yellowcanine]

28. Nicene creed was directed against the Gnostics, among others....

Creeds tended to be not so much a common statement of belief but rather a tool for deciding who was IN and who was OUT. This came in "handy" during inquisitions.

[onager]

33. I'm sitting in the town that invented the Nicene Creed...

Alexandria, Egypt. Fortunately I'm a staunch atheist myself, so I can serve as an honest broker in these baffling and bizarre theological dust-ups.

The first Nicene Creed was aimed at the Arians in Egypt:

The purpose of the (First Council Of Nicaea) was to resolve disagreements in the Church of Alexandria over the nature of Jesus in relationship to the Father; in particular, whether Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father or merely of similar substance. St. Alexander of Alexandria and Athanasius took the first position; the popular presbyter Arius, from whom the term Arian controversy comes, took the second. (Wikipedia)

According to what I've read: the Emperor Constantine ruled in favor of Athanasius. But no sooner had the council ended and Athanasius was back in Alexandria, gloating, than the Emperor wrote him a letter advising him to make nice with Arius.

Athanasius didn't do nice. He kept a violent mob on call 24/7, ready to bash heads in the streets of Alexandria, which they often did. He also used kidnapping, assassination, torture and other godly inducements against his fellow believers. And justified it all by saying he was "keeping misguided Christians from the fires of hell."

Eventually Arius fell dead in an Alexandrian street. There were rumors of poisoning. Athanasius jumped for joy and, IIRC, declared a holiday.

You can still visit the site of the former Church Of St. Athanasius in Alexandria. But it has been under new management since the Muslims took the city in the 7th century, and is currently known as the Attarine Mosque.

[Odin2005]

84. IIRC it was a Christian mob that burned down the Library of Alexandria...

...and brutally murdered that lady philosopher that was the library's last director.

[Critters2]

68. No, it was not aimed at the Gnostics.

The Nicene Creed was born of the disagreement between the Arians and the Athanasians. Nothing to do with the Gnostics, who had pretty much died out by the time of Nicaea.

[JeanGrey]

56. There is much more to it than just not believing the Trinity.

For one thing Mormons believe that when they die, they will become gods, as God is God, and given a world to rule over with their goddess wives. That is a Mormon wife's reward, to be called forth as a goddess by her God husband.

There are so many other differences between mainstream christianity and Mormonism. A member of my family was a 17th level priest in the Mormon church for 17 years.

[Nihil]

59. Wow!

> A member of my family was a 17th level priest ...

That must have taken quite a few experience points but I bet he gets
some good spells!

:P

/SetDnDMode=off

[Caretha]

61. The 17th level

Priest cape is real nifty too. ;-)

[JeanGrey]

62. He's been out of the church for years now.

;)

[Odin2005]

83. So the Unitarians (the "classic" ones, not the UU folks) aren't Christians?

:shrug:

[NorthernSpy]

23. THEY're not christCHUNNNS!!!1!!

Doarksided!1!!



Ah, Marguerite Perrin. I actually kind of like her.

[PassingFair]

30. We are ALL touched by His noodly appendage.

Farfalle, spaghetti, rigatoni,
we are Pastafarians all.

Ramen.

[Chovexani]

43. GARGOYLES

[electron_blue]

24. This is why I say he has no chance of taking the south. It's not just the evangelicals

but Mormonism is widely seen as a cult in the SE.

[WindRavenX]

46. all the more reason to hope he gets the GOP nom.

He'll split the RW religious base. It's win win for us, because he isn't winning without the south.

[electron_blue]

60. good point

[JeanGrey]

57. You are correct, IMHO. He will never get the nomination

anyway.

[Vidar]

25. Lovely, civil war among the fundie wackos.

[CountAllVotes]

27. Romney is nothing but a tool

Christian I ask? :wtf: is that anyway?

:dem:

[mitchum]

29. I never thought that I would ever agree with Inglis about anything, but he's right

[KamaAina]

31. So they call it the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

just for shits and giggles? :sarcasm: I always kind of thought that was a tipoff that they're, y'know, Christian. :eyes:

[psychopomp]

48. No, it was called that so that they didn't get run out of town on a rail

And no, they ain't Christians. Many are nice people, but they ain't Christians. They believe in a pantheon of gods, not the "one, true God."

[onesys01]

67. How incorrect can you be?

I was never taught more then one God, just my God doesn't have schizophrenia. If you wonder what I mean by that see traditional "christian" teachings about God, his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost being one in the same person. If being christian requires me to believe in a God with a mental disorder, then I believe I will pass.

[Zhade]

70. Anyone who worships the Jesus myth is a Christian.

That's how it works. Your denial of that doesn't change the fact that they are Christians (of a different sort).

Of course, it's all made-up hogwash, so whatever.

[Duer 157099]

32. Many fundies really do believe that

Mormons (or insert denomination here) are wolves in sheep's clothing, and thus are more dangerous than outright non-believers. I'd be surprised to see the hard-core fundies voting for a Mormon. But then, nothing they do really surprises me.

But good for the rest of us who get to watch them air their laundry.

[HuffleClaw]

34. bwahhhahhahaaaaa

'my god is better than your god'! hilarious

[Trajan]

35. It is ominous for the GOP ...

That the top tier of their weak slate is so unstable ..... Both Rudy and Mitt have serious problems with a wide spectrum of issues within their own electorate ....

Rudy is the unholy one, screaming NINEELEVEN ! from the rooftops as he stuffs his questionable private life into the attic .... He will suffer serious defections on the right ...

Mitt on the other hand has conservative bona fides (as of the last year when he flip-flopped from previous, more moderate positions), but poor Mitt's Mormon faith is simply unpalatable from the perspective of the wild eyed, glossolalic snake handlers in the party's base.

The Religious Right is in a conniption fit that will not cease for the next 13 years ....

Nice to see you Swagmeister ....

[dogfacedboy]

38. "My stupid religon is better than Your stupid religion"

[customerserviceguy]

39. This is all about

whether or not the fundies want to give the stamp of approval to Mormonism. If the Mormons didn't have pairs of missionaries (guys with tags that say "Elder" and a face full of pimples!) banging on just about every door in America (and everyplace else) this wouldn't be an issue for the fundies. Since the LDS church draws membership away from them, they fear what would happen if the missionaries were able to say, "Even the President of the United States is one of us!"

I guess they know how flimsy their own bullshit is, and figure anybody who can be swayed by their parlor tricks and ranting can be persuaded by the Mormons, as well.

[Chovexani]

41. LOL

I love when these bastards fight each other. :popcorn:

[KamaAina]

45. Evangelicals Shouldn't Equate Christians, Republicans, KamaAina Says

:P

[DuaneBidoux]

63. Don't want to be unsavory but if he wins dems can pound on this in the S. and he is vulnerable.

And I mean VERY vulnerable. He is no more Christian in the classic sense than Muslums are. Just because Muslums believe their women are chattel, and you stone gay people doesn't mean they are Christian. Same thing with Mormons and Christians.

Any Babtist who truly learns what Mormons believe (and I dare say there aren't many who now really understand) wouldn't vote for Romney with a 20 foot pole!

If necessary I feel we must be prepared to use this to strip away the right wing evangelical vote.

[JNelson6563]

64. Here we go

Just as I predicted, the Fundies will not support a Mormon. No way, no how.

Julie

[Zhade]

69. It's all uncorroborated rumors anyway, what's the big deal?

So Mormons believe in unsupported beliefs that don't sync up with other Christians' unsupported beliefs. Who cares?

[DemBones DemBones]

73. You don't think religion influences how people vote?

It does. That's why it's a big deal.

I think the GOP is going to have a problem selling Giuliani or Romney to most Christians and the GOP has been winning with the conservative Christian vote. Who do they have left? McCain? He's got his problems, like dumping wife #1 who waited faithfully for him while he was a POW, and he is not religious, AFAIK. Thompson hasn't caught fire. He might, but it doesn't look like he will. Brownback is a Christian and should have been popular with GOP voters, but he dropped out of the race. His work to save people in Darfur should have gotten him more attention.

So what happens to the GOP if most Christians sit this one out? They lose big.

Some who have been voting for Republicans may even vote for a Democrat who is Christian.

It's definitely a big deal.

[Al Federfer]

71. Shouldn't Christians stop telling us how to think until after they decide what they believe? n/t

[DemBones DemBones]

74. You're making the false assumption that Christians

don't know what they believe.

Do you also think Muslims and Buddhists don't know what they believe? They don't all have the same beliefs, either, you know.

[Al Federfer]

76. With their "house" being so divided...

...Christians have a lot of nerve telling the rest of us that we must believe like they do...whatever that is.

[DemBones DemBones]

77. Since you're opposed to believing, why should you care? nt

[Al Federfer]

78. Ever hear of The Great Commission? That's why I care. n/t

[Sin]

75. What Mormons Believe..

I swear I though the narrator was going to break into news on how the the war on arakis was going. all i have to say to the Mormons "The Spice must Flow"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo

[Cha]

79. "Christian is non-negotiable"?!

They aren't even real..faux christians taking a stand just like fauxnoisers takin' in the noise.

[noonwitch]

80. Magic Mormon Underwear will cost Romney, if he gets the nomination

The regulation temple garments, which mormons are supposed to wear to protect them from sin and harm. Others say it's to encourage modest dress-cover up the garments, and you are dressed modestly. Either way, it's weird.

Mormonism is not catholicism (the JFK analogy). I have no problems with any of the mormons I've met, but if you've ever sat down and read the Book of Mormon, you know how kooky it is. And yes, so is the Bible, but the Bible has the excuse of being old.

[IronLionZion]

81. I guess there's no place for Christ in Christianity

:grr: It's the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints

I tend to get hopping mad over this issue so I'll just give you this Gandhi quote and leave.
"I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

IMHO, belief in Jesus of Nazareth as Christ and Messiah is pretty much the defining factor in whether you are a Christian or not. But what the fuck do I know? I'm just a Catholic.

I'm hoping for a Giuliani/Romney ticket...one that we can destroy easily.