Bush urges rejection of Armenia genocide resolution

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Reuters

Bush urges rejection of Armenia genocide resolution
Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:14pm EDT

By Tabassum Zakaria

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush on Wednesday urged U.S. lawmakers to reject a congressional resolution calling the 1915 massacres of Armenians genocide, saying it would do "great harm" to U.S. relations with Turkey.

"This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings," Bush told reporters at the White House.

The House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee is to consider the Armenian genocide resolution later on Wednesday. If it passes, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, a longtime supporter of the measure, could then decide to bring it before the full House for a vote.

Many Democrats, who control Congress, support the resolution, which has 226 co-sponsors, more than half the House.

The measure comes at a delicate time for Turkey-U.S. relations.



Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSWAT00825320071010

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[truebrit71]

1. Chimpy..on the wrong side of history again...

...what a moran...

[no_hypocrisy]

2. Here's my take on the situation:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2012575&mesg_id=2012575

[EST]

3. I still don't understand this.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me.
I realize that there's some kind of stipulation in the requirements for joining the European union that a tag of "genocide" on the Turks could make dicey, but that's a question, too, as it can easily be made a case that Germany was guilty of genocide in at least one of the world wars and Britain, itself, was responsible for the deaths of large numbers or what are now, interimly, called Iraqis through the use of poison gas, among other weapons.

So the picture I get is that there is a bunch of American-Armenians who were refugees from the 1914-1918 war whose dependents are still pissed about the genocide that occured and are dead set on doing as much dirt as they can against modern day Turkey. This picture has to be one sided, but it's the best I have come up with from the crap on tv, however simplistic and inaccuate it may be.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. I think the difference is that Turkey has never acknowledged its guilt and

indeed continues to treat its minorities badly, to the point of denying their existence.

One of the things that most angers the Kurds, for example, is that Turkey doesn't even recognize them as a separate ethnic group, even though their language is totally unrelated to Turkish and is in fact related to Persian. Instead, Turkey refers to the Kurds as "mountain Turks."

As far as the Armenians are concerned, it's pretty clear that they were badly treated. There were massacres, and many starved to death, although the Armenian and Turkish sides disagree on whether the starvation was the result of a deliberate policy or an accident of war.

Whatever the case, Hitler was emboldened by the persecution of the Armenians. When someone told him that persecuting the Jews would harm his international reputation, he is said to have remarked, "Who remembers the Armenians today?"

[cascadiance]

12. I think this issue is more complex than many would like to think it is...

Though many Armenians are still angry at what happened almost a century ago, and deserve to feel anger about it, some of what they are doing today is arguably more motivated by spite as some mentioned here than it is trying to constructively deal with that part of history and have it work for the better for them and everyone else in the future.

It would be like continually to blame any Ugandan government for the atrocities of Idi Amin in many years to come. Now the Turks could probably be more forthcoming in acknowledging that problematic part of history, but I think they are also a little apprehensive of what people would do with any such "admission" from them on this. The modern day Turkish government is completely different than the Ottoman Empire of those days or even the "Young Turks" that followed them briefly and arguably more of a democracy than many other nations in that area.

Yes, the Turks also have problems with the Kurds, and are going back and forth with actions against and from the PKK down there. The Kurds have also been doing similar things to Turkomens and other ethnic minorities in northern Iraq trying to get majority control of cities like Kirkuk and Mosul there. So it's not a case of "the good guys" and "the bad guys". This is similar to the tribal differences in Afghanistan, in other parts of Iraq, and for that matter in Israel.

I think if we want a more constructive approach on this, we try to deal with genocide as a more abstract issue (and be pointed in comments towards certain incidents, but not just limit it to the Armenian genocide). There are many other examples of such in places like Darfur, Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, etc. that all should be looked at to see how this issue can be dealt with without it just being a "revenge" issue that some might perceive it to be. Perhaps try to look at how South Africa used its "truth commissions" to find a more constructive approach to these problems when they were trying to find reconciliation and closure to the problems they had in the past.

I think that is what this Armenian genocide issue is looking like now. It seems to be focused too much on just the Turks and the Armenians from an "old wounds never die" perspective, rather than something constructive where the victims and the perpetrator's decendants (who are NOT guilty of what happened then) can step back from what happened then and hopefully find a common ground on critiquing it and seeing what really happened then and how it has affected by sides since then too, without feeling like they might be blamed for what happened then, and hopefully make things better for the people living now.

The Kurdish problem is happening now, and I think that incidents by both sides need to be looked at and dealt with constructively to find a solution, and not just "take sides".

Now, I know Bush is trying to keep Turkey in his corner for a potential attack on Iran. You know if he didn't have to be nice to them for that set of cards he wants to play, he'd turn his back on them in a minute.

I lived in Turkey as a kid in the late 60's early 70's. I know many of them to be decent people. There are also jerks there too, just like there are anywhere else. It's becoming too easy to try and demonize a group of people in the distance. That is what this administration has gotten good at with many Americans that don't want to understand what the world feels about us, just that we "win".

[russian33]

17. badly treated indeed

April 15,1915
Armenian refugees from villages surrounding the city of Van arrive and notify the inhabitants that 80 villages in Van Province were already obliterated and that 24,000 Armenians had been killed in three days.

April 18
Until the end of April 32,000 more Armenians are slain in the villages of Van Province, including the inhabitants of remote villages.

April 20
The deportation of the 25,000 Armenians of Zeitun is completed.

April 24
250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders are arrested in Constantinople and sent to Chankri and Ayash, where they are later slain.

May 6
The New York Times reports that the Young Turks had adopted a policy to annihilate the Armenians.

May 21
Regular Russian Army forces arrive in Van. They begin the cremation of the dead in the city and in the villages of the province. 55,000 dead are identified as Armenians.

May 29
630 Armenians arrested on May 10 in Diyarbekir are murdered in the village of Bisheri while in custody and their bodies are thrown in the Tigris River.

June 10 to June 13
Over a period of four days the Armenians deported from the towns and villages of Erzerum Province are slaughtered in a major massacre at Kemakh.

June 13
25,000 Armenians are murdered by the fourth day of the Kemakh massacre. The 86th Cavalry Brigade with its officers and the 2nd Reserve Cavalry Division of the Turkish Army participate in the slaughter.

June 25
A government decree instructs the 30,000 Armenians in Trebizond to leave the city within 5 days.

June 30
3,000 Armenians from the city of Erzerum are murdered while being deported.

and so on, and so forth

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/chronology.html

this is not war, this was ethnic cleansing...

[dipsydoodle]

5. It may not matter

whether or not the USA choses to recognise the genocide of up to 1.5 million Armenians. At least 26 other countries already recognise the fact.

You also have it back to front - Turkey's admission of thier guilt may be a requirement for their entry to the EU.

[DrBlix]

14. This is personal

My mother in law who was Greek told me about the day the turks broke down the door of her home and killed her whole family in front of her.
.
In 2000 Then Leader of the House Hastert shelved this "genocide" bill and was paid handsomely for it. Check it out on google.

[dipsydoodle]

18. I have friends

from both Famagusta, a Greek town in Cyprus now in the Turkish sector and also from childhood, Armenians whose grandparents suffered at the hands of the Turks when they were forcibly evacuated and left with food or water.

Cyprus is yet another issue which will help determine whether or not Turkey gets EU admittance.

[yava]

21. edwardlindy on Turkey and the EU

Hi,
A word to say that from the look of things with the new French President Sarkozy who will also automatically become EU Head for some time next year, and with the anti-islam feelings now in the EU, I am afraid to say that Turkey will DEFINITELY not be part of the EU in the coming 10 years and the Turks know it.
So, please re-connect your dots.

[harun]

6. This might be the only thing I have agreed with B*sh on his whole

presidency.

[Tempest]

7. This is very interesting

Considering Turkey just bombed the PKK in Iraq territory.

[dipsydoodle]

8. Exactly what

does the idiot in chief think is the correct response to these "historic mass killings"

edit to add : for the avoidance of doubt on the subject of Turkey and the EU see here: The European Parliament said it "reiterates its call on Turkey to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, as called for in previous European Parliament resolutions." http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/09/5a4092b3-d5ec-4d9a-a0a6-c3e5f90992a3.html

[IronLionZion]

9. These nations and states have already recognized it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_the_Armenian_Genocide

Countries officially recognizing the Armenian Genocide include Argentina<6>, Armenia<7>, Austria<8>, Belgium<9>, Canada<10>, Chile<11>, Cyprus<9>, France<12>, Greece<9>, Italy<9>, Lebanon<8>, Lithuania<9>, The Netherlands<8>, Poland<13>, Russia<9>, Slovakia<8>, Sweden<8>, Switzerland<9>, Uruguay<9>, Vatican City<8> and Venezuela.<8> Although part of the United Kingdom, Wales<9> also officially recognizes the Armenian Genocide. The Canadian provinces of Ontario and Quebec recognize the Armenian Genocide independently of their federal government.<14> The Parliament of the State of New South Wales, Australia passed a resolution acknowledging and condemning the Armenian Genocide in 1997.

[shanti]

10. wow

lots of republican armenians here in cali...wonder what THEY think of this?

[cascadiance]

13. It would be interesting to hear how Howard Kaloogian (Mr. "Istanbul is Baghdad") feels...

I'm guessing for now he's avoiding commenting on it...

[MLFerrell]

11. "...it would do "great harm" to U.S. relations with Turkey."

By which he means: "...it would do "great harm" to U.S. relations with Israel."

Fixed 'er right up!

[subsuelo]

15. edited

[russian33]

16. fascinating discussion...

especially the "still pissed about genocide" comment

the issue is recognition...Armenians want, and always wanted, the extermination of 1.5 million people recognized as genocide, and Turkey accept the responsibility (Germany did)
you don't want to read accounts of how people died in 1915...it's horrible
my father's aunt's mom was 5 years old, and hid under the couch to watch her parents, two sisters, brother and grandmother butchered in the house...i remember her telling me this, years ago,
when she was still alive...she was one of many, many, many armenians...this wasn't result of war, this was ethnic cleansing at it's earliest...house by house, village by village cleanup of all armenians...and some were "relocated", only to die en route, since they were forced to walk, in heat, and without any food/water...

of course Bush won't recognize it, he'll piss off Turkey (who throws their own people in jail for recognizing it)...and we can't have that, well with all the attacks we can launch from Turkey

sad...

[Scurrilous]

19. House panel passes Armenian genocide resolution

<snip>

"A U.S. House committee approved a resolution calling the 1915 massacres of Armenians genocide on Wednesday, brushing aside White House warnings that it would do "great harm" to ties with NATO ally Turkey, a key supporter in the Iraq war.

The House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee approved the resolution 27-21. It now goes to the House floor, where Democratic leaders say there will be a vote by mid-November. There is a companion bill in the Senate, but both measures are strictly symbolic, and do not require the president's signature.

Turkey calls the resolution an insult and rejects the Armenian position, backed by many Western historians, that up to 1.5 million Armenians suffered genocide at the hands of Ottoman Turks during World War One. Turkey has warned of damage to bilateral ties if Congress passes the measure."

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-10-10T212728Z_01_WAT008253_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-TURKEY-USA-ARMENIANS-COL.XML&archived=False

[madfloridian]

20. Pictures from the memorial when Dean visited there in 2005

on behalf of the DNC.

http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2005/08/20/howard-dean-at-tsitsernakaberd/